Undefined discussion subject.
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I agree with that. I don't think it's any business of the police involving themselves in any hate speech unless it's an incitement to criminality. The same rules should apply to MPs as anyone else. Of course, as you imply, their electorate and their party might take a dim view of an MP exploiting that liberty to its extremes but that's a different thing.MTimT said:
As a strong advocate of true free speech, not the heavily proscribed version available in the UK, I would agree except that outside of the privileges of the HoC, I don't see why MPs should have greater rights to free speech than citizens. If anything, it should be the other way around so that the citizenry can hold their elected representatives accountable.david_herdson said:
What does it have to do with the police? She has the right of free speech - all the more so as an MP.MP_SE said:I am hoping someone has reported Shah to the police for her truly revolting posts on social media.
However, if the police have investigated less as hate speech in others, then the same interpretation of the law must be applied in this case. Otherwise, it is one law for us, and another for Labour MPs.0 -
Relevant to this article and to Naz Shah.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/what-a-week-for-integration-britain/
Oh - and why is anyone surprised that Corbyn is taking no action against Ms Shah. He would have to confront his own support for anti-Semites and Hamas. Better to pretend that she is so stupid that she repeatedly writes and says things she doesn't believe.
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Immigration is why Leave will win. It is also why a lot of Leave voters are subsequently going to feel betrayed.0
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Btw, I think it's a strength in an article if it doesn't just show the impression of the latest polls. I can read the polls myself and don't need someone to tell me that 43 is 2 more than 41. Besides, in betting you want to anticipate changes in polling. So articles that try to dig down into what the writer thinks is really going on are to me very welcome. They may not be correct but they are interesting.0
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This all reminds me of the dismissive, smug arrogance of the US lobby journalists disparaging Trump and wondering why he kept defying their expert analysis. Failing to understand your rival springs to mind...Luckyguy1983 said:The two sides appear to be just about neck and neck in the polls. This could well be illusory, and Remain could win with a handsome margin, but we no evidence that that will happen.
So why all the pages and pages of diagnosis and advice on where it's all gone wrong for Leave? If you told me before this campaign started that Leave would be in the position they are now, I wouldn't have believed you.
If anything, is it not more interesting to consider why Remain aren't at least 10 points clear, and why they seem to be underperforming expectations so markedly? What can Remain do to turn things around? That might be an interesting thread.0 -
That doesn't make senseSouthamObserver said:Immigration is why Leave will win. It is also why a lot of Leave voters are subsequently going to feel betrayed.
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Yes it might.Luckyguy1983 said:The two sides appear to be just about neck and neck in the polls. This could well be illusory, and Remain could win with a handsome margin, but we no evidence that that will happen.
So why all the pages and pages of diagnosis and advice on where it's all gone wrong for Leave? If you told me before this campaign started that Leave would be in the position they are now, I wouldn't have believed you.
If anything, is it not more interesting to consider why Remain aren't at least 10 points clear, and why they seem to be underperforming expectations so markedly? What can Remain do to turn things around? That might be an interesting thread.
If I had been asked that three weeks ago I would have said that Remain needed to regain the initiative which they had lost at that point. I think they have done that and that their position will slowly improve from here if things continue like this. If...
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Yes, it's a very well written piece, and it's hard to disagree with the conclusions.MaxPB said:
Read the header, it is actually good advice.blackburn63 said:Meeks once again advising Leave what to do, does anybody bother to read this anymore?
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Agreeddavid_herdson said:
I agree with that. I don't think it's any business of the police involving themselves in any hate speech unless it's an incitement to criminality. The same rules should apply to MPs as anyone else. Of course, as you imply, their electorate and their party might take a dim view of an MP exploiting that liberty to its extremes but that's a different thing.MTimT said:
As a strong advocate of true free speech, not the heavily proscribed version available in the UK, I would agree except that outside of the privileges of the HoC, I don't see why MPs should have greater rights to free speech than citizens. If anything, it should be the other way around so that the citizenry can hold their elected representatives accountable.david_herdson said:
What does it have to do with the police? She has the right of free speech - all the more so as an MP.MP_SE said:I am hoping someone has reported Shah to the police for her truly revolting posts on social media.
However, if the police have investigated less as hate speech in others, then the same interpretation of the law must be applied in this case. Otherwise, it is one law for us, and another for Labour MPs.0 -
Southam is saying that - post Leave - it is highly likely that we end up with something that looks like EEA, in which case there will be a lot of Leavers who will feel betrayed.blackburn63 said:
That doesn't make senseSouthamObserver said:Immigration is why Leave will win. It is also why a lot of Leave voters are subsequently going to feel betrayed.
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Miss Plato, as Michael Corleone said, don't despise your enemies.0
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Any PBers going to the Boomtown festival this summer? I'm thinking of going and taking my kids (6 and 8)0
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@janinegibson: Uh oh..... Labour HQ Deleted References To Anti-Semitism From Naz Shah’s Apology https://t.co/55Z95xJhJK via @jimwaterson0
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I'd take anything the Remain campaigners say with a very big pinch of salt.Luckyguy1983 said:There's been a lot from Remainers recently recommending Leave play the immigration card.
One can only assume they're slavering at the chance to jump on Leave as a bunch of unsavoury racists desperately playing the 'johnny foreigner out' card.
I suspect they think this will 'fire up' Leave's left wing base, who seem to have stayed very muted throughout the campaign, whilst not really delivering any more voters to Leave, because immigration is factored in.0 -
Lib Dems winning here!Wanderer said:Btw, I think it's a strength in an article if it doesn't just show the impression of the latest polls. I can read the polls myself and don't need someone to tell me that 43 is 2 more than 41. Besides, in betting you want to anticipate changes in polling. So articles that try to dig down into what the writer thinks is really going on are to me very welcome. They may not be correct but they are interesting.
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I have been wondering how mainstream her views are on the Corbynite left.Cyclefree said:Relevant to this article and to Naz Shah.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/what-a-week-for-integration-britain/
Oh - and why is anyone surprised that Corbyn is taking no action against Ms Shah. He would have to confront his own support for anti-Semites and Hamas. Better to pretend that she is so stupid that she repeatedly writes and says things she doesn't believe.0 -
I would have thought the Yorkshire constabulary have enough to do and should not get involved in a twittermobMP_SE said:I am hoping someone has reported Shah to the police for her truly revolting posts on social media.
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Nope, still doesn't make sense.rcs1000 said:
Southam is saying that - post Leave - it is highly likely that we end up with something that looks like EEA, in which case there will be a lot of Leavers who will feel betrayed.blackburn63 said:
That doesn't make senseSouthamObserver said:Immigration is why Leave will win. It is also why a lot of Leave voters are subsequently going to feel betrayed.
This govt could control immigration if it chose to, it clearly doesn't want to despite Cameron's claims of tens of thousands blah blah.
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Morris_Dancer said:
Miss Plato, as Michael Corleone said, don't despise your enemies.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/04/26/trumps-sweep-is-another-humiliating-defeat-for-media-and-political-elites/Charles Murray wrote about the rise of a new American upper class and the “narrow elites” who shape America’s economy, culture and government. The number of players who dominate the direction of media, politics and finance is surprisingly concentrated for a country as sprawling and diverse as the United States. And yet almost all of these “influencers” across Manhattan and Washington were incapable of blunting Trump’s meteoric rise. Time and again over the past year, Washington insiders and media moguls misread the mood of working-class voters and their attraction to the populist message championed by Trump.
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Far better to crush them, drive them before you, and listen to the lamentations of their women.Morris_Dancer said:Miss Plato, as Michael Corleone said, don't despise your enemies.
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The Labour leadership tolerates anti-Semitism because the leadership is profoundly anti-American. It has nothing to do with the leadership disliking Jews, but everything to do with it disliking Israel because it is such a close ally of the US. This hatred leads Corbyn, McDonnell et al to contort themselves into offering justifications for and support to anti-Semites. It is sickening and a betrayal of all that labour is supposed to be. But they are ever so polite.SeanT said:
But it repels white voters. That's the point. Labour is in danger of becoming the "Muslim" party, which is a fast track to total self-destruction.MaxPB said:
Yes, of course, I don't doubt that there are activists in Labour who abhor it and are 100% against it, but I fear the leadership has looked at the sums and decided that the numbers make sense to pursue a policy platform which attracts Muslim voters.Sean_F said:
I wouldn't say "Labour" as a whole. Many Labour activists have nothing but contempt for anti-Semitism.MaxPB said:
I think the equation that Labour have made is that there are 400,000 Jews eligible to vote in Britain and about 2.5m Muslims, the former group is shrinking and the latter is the fastest growing demographic in Britain.SeanT said:
Anti-Semitism is virtually non-existent in WWC Britain.MaxPB said:
Damaging from who's point of view though? From a point of view which gets 10-15% of their total votes from Muslims, probably not. There is going to be a lot more handwringing and acceptance of disturbing views by Labour in the coming years as they become more dependent on inner cities. Ask surbiton of this parish, Muslim vote harvesting is a Labour policy, he has said as much time and again.SeanT said:
This is why she should have resigned. By supporting her Corbyn has blown it up into something much bigger.Plato_Says said:
A Labour MP is going to address the Commons and personally apologise for being an anti-Semite.
I mean, how much worse can it get? Can't they see how damaging it is?
I think they figure that even if they lose some votes they get more out of motivating Muslims to vote for them.
But, I think some members of the Party have made that calculation.0 -
The reason Remain is confident is that - excluding Orb - there are a large number of Don't Knows. The evidence is that DKs have the same propensity to vote as people who express an opinion, and that DKs typically break 2:1 for the status quo during referenda. This is backed up by the forced choice question used some pollsters, which see DKs also break for Remain.Luckyguy1983 said:The two sides appear to be just about neck and neck in the polls. This could well be illusory, and Remain could win with a handsome margin, but we no evidence that that will happen.
So why all the pages and pages of diagnosis and advice on where it's all gone wrong for Leave? If you told me before this campaign started that Leave would be in the position they are now, I wouldn't have believed you.
If anything, is it not more interesting to consider why Remain aren't at least 10 points clear, and why they seem to be underperforming expectations so markedly? What can Remain do to turn things around? That might be an interesting thread.
Now, that doesn't mean we should be disheartened: there are still eight weeks to go, and Remain seems to be largely out of ideas. We stand a good chance of getting this over the line, but (if we're going to be frank) it's a one-in-four, or maybe one-in-three.0 -
Well quite, they are too busy arresting Ukip voters that have fostered children.foxinsoxuk said:
I would have thought the Yorkshire constabulary have enough to do and should not get involved in a twittermobMP_SE said:I am hoping someone has reported Shah to the police for her truly revolting posts on social media.
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Utter nonsense SO.SouthamObserver said:
The Labour leadership tolerates anti-Semitism because the leadership is profoundly anti-American. It has nothing to do with the leadership disliking Jews,SeanT said:
But it repels white voters. That's the point. Labour is in danger of becoming the "Muslim" party, which is a fast track to total self-destruction.MaxPB said:
Yes, of course, I don't doubt that there are activists in Labour who abhor it and are 100% against it, but I fear the leadership has looked at the sums and decided that the numbers make sense to pursue a policy platform which attracts Muslim voters.Sean_F said:
I wouldn't say "Labour" as a whole. Many Labour activists have nothing but contempt for anti-Semitism.MaxPB said:
I think the equation that Labour have made is that there are 400,000 Jews eligible to vote in Britain and about 2.5m Muslims, the former group is shrinking and the latter is the fastest growing demographic in Britain.SeanT said:
Anti-Semitism is virtually non-existent in WWC Britain.MaxPB said:
Damaging from who's point of view though? From a point of view which gets 10-15% of their total votes from Muslims, probably not. There is going to be a lot more handwringing and acceptance of disturbing views by Labour in the coming years as they become more dependent on inner cities. Ask surbiton of this parish, Muslim vote harvesting is a Labour policy, he has said as much time and again.SeanT said:
This is why she should have resigned. By supporting her Corbyn has blown it up into something much bigger.Plato_Says said:
A Labour MP is going to address the Commons and personally apologise for being an anti-Semite.
I mean, how much worse can it get? Can't they see how damaging it is?
I think they figure that even if they lose some votes they get more out of motivating Muslims to vote for them.
But, I think some members of the Party have made that calculation.
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http://www.campbestival.net/rcs1000 said:Any PBers going to the Boomtown festival this summer? I'm thinking of going and taking my kids (6 and 8)
Camp Bestival is a great festival for youngsters, and very chilled for adults too. There usually are some eighties bands too. Best fireworks and laser show that I have ever seen.
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Yes.rcs1000 said:
Southam is saying that - post Leave - it is highly likely that we end up with something that looks like EEA, in which case there will be a lot of Leavers who will feel betrayed.blackburn63 said:
That doesn't make senseSouthamObserver said:Immigration is why Leave will win. It is also why a lot of Leave voters are subsequently going to feel betrayed.
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Nope - completely correct. Anti-Americanism explains just about everything you need to know about the Corbyn left. That's why so many anti-Semitic Moslems feel at home inside Labour.TGOHF said:
Utter nonsense SO.SouthamObserver said:
The Labour leadership tolerates anti-Semitism because the leadership is profoundly anti-American. It has nothing to do with the leadership disliking Jews,SeanT said:
But it repels white voters. That's the point. Labour is in danger of becoming the "Muslim" party, which is a fast track to total self-destruction.MaxPB said:
Yes, of course, I don't doubt that there are activists in Labour who abhor it and are 100% against it, but I fear the leadership has looked at the sums and decided that the numbers make sense to pursue a policy platform which attracts Muslim voters.Sean_F said:
I wouldn't say "Labour" as a whole. Many Labour activists have nothing but contempt for anti-Semitism.MaxPB said:
I think the equation that Labour have made is that there are 400,000 Jews eligible to vote in Britain and about 2.5m Muslims, the former group is shrinking and the latter is the fastest growing demographic in Britain.SeanT said:
Anti-Semitism is virtually non-existent in WWC Britain.MaxPB said:
Damaging from who's point of view though? From a point of view which gets 10-15% of their total votes from Muslims, probably not. There is going to be a lot more handwringing and acceptance of disturbing views by Labour in the coming years as they become more dependent on inner cities. Ask surbiton of this parish, Muslim vote harvesting is a Labour policy, he has said as much time and again.SeanT said:
This is why she should have resigned. By supporting her Corbyn has blown it up into something much bigger.Plato_Says said:
A Labour MP is going to address the Commons and personally apologise for being an anti-Semite.
I mean, how much worse can it get? Can't they see how damaging it is?
I think they figure that even if they lose some votes they get more out of motivating Muslims to vote for them.
But, I think some members of the Party have made that calculation.
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If Labour HQ. has doctored or censored Shah,s apology then it makes Corby look like a bigger prat..Is no one in charge over there..0
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Then those people will vote accordingly over time. Shrugging your shoulders and saying nothing can be done won't be an option forever.SouthamObserver said:
Yes.rcs1000 said:
Southam is saying that - post Leave - it is highly likely that we end up with something that looks like EEA, in which case there will be a lot of Leavers who will feel betrayed.blackburn63 said:
That doesn't make senseSouthamObserver said:Immigration is why Leave will win. It is also why a lot of Leave voters are subsequently going to feel betrayed.
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Rather more mainstream than people are assuming. Hatred of Israel and Jews and an indifference to anti-Semitism and / or a willingness to excuse it or justify it, coupled with a refusal to accept that, too often, Islam or Islamism is the source of it seems par for the course In some sections of the Left. It must make decent Lefties despair. But despairing rather than acting is all they do. So my sympathy for them is beginning to run out, frankly.Wanderer said:
I have been wondering how mainstream her views are on the Corbynite left.Cyclefree said:Relevant to this article and to Naz Shah.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/what-a-week-for-integration-britain/
Oh - and why is anyone surprised that Corbyn is taking no action against Ms Shah. He would have to confront his own support for anti-Semites and Hamas. Better to pretend that she is so stupid that she repeatedly writes and says things she doesn't believe.
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Another question is who leaked that....SeanT said:That Buzzfeed story about Labour HQ deleting references to anti-Semitism is potentially dynamite. Takes the whole thing to a new level.
What the F is going on at the top of Labour? Who leaked it?0 -
Go on, give us another Bradford West by-election. I don't think Galloway will be busy after May.SeanT said:@paulwaugh 7m7 minutes ago
Naz Shah Commons apology is just 1 part of process she now faces, HuffPost understands. NEC suspension still likely
It seems she is going to go anyway, so all this lying and weaselling - which makes it so much worse - is actively pointless.
How Not to Handle a Crisis, by Seamus Milne.0 -
Well, there is such a thing as anti-Semitism on the left distinct from anti-Americanism or, indeed, any concern with Israel. The idea that Jew = capitalist = bad is not dead.SouthamObserver said:
Nope - completely correct. Anti-Americanism explains just about everything you need to know about the Corbyn left. That's why so many anti-Semitic Moslems feel at home inside Labour.TGOHF said:
Utter nonsense SO.SouthamObserver said:
The Labour leadership tolerates anti-Semitism because the leadership is profoundly anti-American. It has nothing to do with the leadership disliking Jews,SeanT said:
But it repels white voters. That's the point. Labour is in danger of becoming the "Muslim" party, which is a fast track to total self-destruction.MaxPB said:
Yes, of course, I don't doubt that there are activists in Labour who abhor it and are 100% against it, but I fear the leadership has looked at the sums and decided that the numbers make sense to pursue a policy platform which attracts Muslim voters.Sean_F said:
I wouldn't say "Labour" as a whole. Many Labour activists have nothing but contempt for anti-Semitism.MaxPB said:
I think the equation that Labour have made is that there are 400,000 Jews eligible to vote in Britain and about 2.5m Muslims, the former group is shrinking and the latter is the fastest growing demographic in Britain.SeanT said:
Anti-Semitism is virtually non-existent in WWC Britain.MaxPB said:
Damaging from who's point of view though? From a point of view which gets 10-15% of their total votes from Muslims, probably not. There is going to be a lot more handwringing and acceptance of disturbing views by Labour in the coming years as they become more dependent on inner cities. Ask surbiton of this parish, Muslim vote harvesting is a Labour policy, he has said as much time and again.SeanT said:
This is why she should have resigned. By supporting her Corbyn has blown it up into something much bigger.Plato_Says said:
A Labour MP is going to address the Commons and personally apologise for being an anti-Semite.
I mean, how much worse can it get? Can't they see how damaging it is?
I think they figure that even if they lose some votes they get more out of motivating Muslims to vote for them.
But, I think some members of the Party have made that calculation.0 -
Chairman Milne is...richardDodd said:If Labour HQ. has doctored or censored Shah,s apology then it makes Corby look like a bigger prat..Is no one in charge over there..
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I've just shed my Cruz..
Hope he quits now!0 -
South Yorkshire, thank you.foxinsoxuk said:
I would have thought the Yorkshire constabulary have enough to do and should not get involved in a twittermobMP_SE said:I am hoping someone has reported Shah to the police for her truly revolting posts on social media.
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Great leadership there Jahadi Jez...SeanT said:@jimwaterson 3m3 minutes ago
Hearing Naz Shah is having another meeting with Corbyn and is likely to be suspended.0 -
Not exactly. There'll always be enemies (or opponents). Crushing one invariably leads to the rise of others.Sean_F said:
Far better to crush them, drive them before you, and listen to the lamentations of their women.Morris_Dancer said:Miss Plato, as Michael Corleone said, don't despise your enemies.
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What is Lyin' Ted up to?Casino_Royale said:I've just shed my Cruz..
Hope he quits now!0 -
I am now longer Trump than Cruz.Casino_Royale said:I've just shed my Cruz..
Hope he quits now!
Took some doing !0 -
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I hope this isn't the start of a worrying trend, some of us said that the London Mayor campaign would be fought along cultural/religious lines and it has certainly crept in. If, and it is if, Labour are seeking to firm up the Muslim vote that should be of enormous concern.0
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Didn't you get on Cruz when he was at 40?Pulpstar said:
I am now longer Trump than Cruz.Casino_Royale said:I've just shed my Cruz..
Hope he quits now!
Took some doing !0 -
Wonder if the leak of the pre-altered statement has anything to do with it?SeanT said:And there we are. The Full Omnishambles is Served
@JPonpolitics 1m1 minute ago
Naz Shah will be suspended shortly, I understand0 -
Can you point us to some anti-American tweets or articles by Labour types ?SouthamObserver said:
Nope - completely correct. Anti-Americanism explains just about everything you need to know about the Corbyn left. That's why so many anti-Semitic Moslems feel at home inside Labour.TGOHF said:
Utter nonsense SO.SouthamObserver said:
The Labour leadership tolerates anti-Semitism because the leadership is profoundly anti-American. It has nothing to do with the leadership disliking Jews,SeanT said:
But it repels white voters. That's the point. Labour is in danger of becoming the "Muslim" party, which is a fast track to total self-destruction.MaxPB said:
Yes, of course, I don't doubt that there are activists in Labour who abhor it and are 100% against it, but I fear the leadership has looked at the sums and decided that the numbers make sense to pursue a policy platform which attracts Muslim voters.Sean_F said:
I wouldn't say "Labour" as a whole. Many Labour activists have nothing but contempt for anti-Semitism.MaxPB said:
I think the equation that Labour have made is that there are 400,000 Jews eligible to vote in Britain and about 2.5m Muslims, the former group is shrinking and the latter is the fastest growing demographic in Britain.SeanT said:
Anti-Semitism is virtually non-existent in WWC Britain.MaxPB said:
Damaging from who's point of view though? From a point of view which gets 10-15% of their total votes from Muslims, probably not. There is going to be a lot more handwringing and acceptance of disturbing views by Labour in the coming years as they become more dependent on inner cities. Ask surbiton of this parish, Muslim vote harvesting is a Labour policy, he has said as much time and again.SeanT said:
This is why she should have resigned. By supporting her Corbyn has blown it up into something much bigger.Plato_Says said:
A Labour MP is going to address the Commons and personally apologise for being an anti-Semite.
I mean, how much worse can it get? Can't they see how damaging it is?
I think they figure that even if they lose some votes they get more out of motivating Muslims to vote for them.
But, I think some members of the Party have made that calculation.
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You've had a boner for Cruz since the start!Pulpstar said:
I am now longer Trump than Cruz.Casino_Royale said:I've just shed my Cruz..
Hope he quits now!
Took some doing !0 -
There's no doubt Labour don't want to risk upsetting their bloc vote in Tower Hamlets and Newham. They can't win the London mayoralty without it.blackburn63 said:I hope this isn't the start of a worrying trend, some of us said that the London Mayor campaign would be fought along cultural/religious lines and it has certainly crept in. If, and it is if, Labour are seeking to firm up the Muslim vote that should be of enormous concern.
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Wanderer said:
I'd say that is about as significant as that type of anti-Semitism on the right. It's a throwback to the 20s and 30s essentially.SouthamObserver said:
Well, there is such a thing as anti-Semitism on the left distinct from anti-Americanism or, indeed, any concern with Israel. The idea that Jew = capitalist = bad is not dead.TGOHF said:
Nope - completely correct. Anti-Americanism explains just about everything you need to know about the Corbyn left. That's why so many anti-Semitic Moslems feel at home inside Labour.SouthamObserver said:
Utter nonsense SO.SeanT said:
The Labour leadership tolerates anti-Semitism because the leadership is profoundly anti-American. It has nothing to do with the leadership disliking Jews,MaxPB said:
But it repels white voters. That's the point. Labour is in danger of becoming the "Muslim" party, which is a fast track to total self-destruction.Sean_F said:
I wouldn't say "Labour" as a whole. Many Labour activists have nothing but contempt for anti-Semitism.MaxPB said:
I think the equation that Labour have made is that there are 400,000 Jews eligible to vote in Britain and about 2.5m Muslims, the former group is shrinking and the latter is the fastest growing demographic in Britain.SeanT said:
Anti-Semitism is virtually non-existent in WWC Britain.MaxPB said:
Damaging from who's point of view though? From a point of view which gets 10-15% of their total votes from Muslims, probably not. There is going to be a lot more handwringing and acceptance of disturbing views by Labour in the coming years as they become more dependent on inner cities. Ask surbiton of this parish, Muslim vote harvesting is a Labour policy, he has said as much time and again.SeanT said:
This is why she should have resigned. By supporting her Corbyn has blown it up into something much bigger.Plato_Says said:
A Labour MP is going to address the Commons and personally apologise for being an anti-Semite.
I mean, how much worse can it get? Can't they see how damaging it is?
I think they figure that even if they lose some votes they get more out of motivating Muslims to vote for them.
But, I think some members of the Party have made that calculation.0 -
I think Leave have one big advantage and one big disadvantage against Remain, which may explain why the two sides are close.
Leave's big advantage is that they have a much simpler story: Vote Leave to take control of our own affairs. Any Remain reply to that statement is qualified and complicated. Arguments for the EU go along the lines of, I accept they are remote, bureaucratic and corrupt, but it's better to have a forum where countries get together than not to have one. A glass half full is better than no glass at all - is hardly an inspiring slogan.
Leave's difficulty is is in coming up with a coherent and credible alternative to membership of the EU. Yes, we can leave easily enough but the EU is still there and we will want to have some kind of relationship. Do we go for an EEA deal? But that neutralises the main perceived benefit of leaving. Would it actually work - we're not Norway. Or do we go for glorious isolation with implications for trade? And so on.The response is muddled partly because you are replacing a definite thing with proposals with options and everyone has opinions. And partly because it's not under your control anyway.
I think the second point will tell in the end, if we don't vote for Out in June. Barring an EU cataclysm - always possible - we'll stay in for the foreseeable. Swimming upstream gets to be too tiring.0 -
I think you’ve made your point [ed]Sunil_Prasannan said:
/twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/7253390576691650580 -
I'm on everyone at all sorts of pricesWanderer said:
Didn't you get on Cruz when he was at 40?Pulpstar said:
I am now longer Trump than Cruz.Casino_Royale said:I've just shed my Cruz..
Hope he quits now!
Took some doing ! though yes I did get £59 on Cruz at 40 apparently (Avg is 17.62 for Cruz), overlaid off at 9.8. 0 -
EurophileBetting.comSimonStClare said:
I think you’ve made your point [ed]Sunil_Prasannan said:/twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/725339057669165058 0 -
I think that's right. It is also, in my experience, more common amongst older people.SouthamObserver said:
I'd say that is about as significant as that type of anti-Semitism on the right. It's a throwback to the 20s and 30s essentially.Wanderer said:
Well, there is such a thing as anti-Semitism on the left distinct from anti-Americanism or, indeed, any concern with Israel. The idea that Jew = capitalist = bad is not dead.0 -
What a clusterfuck
“Jeremy Corbyn and Naz Shah have mutually agreed that she is administratively suspended from the Labour Party by the General Secretary."
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I see tweets every other day confirming this view - its not a tiny minority by any stretch. Sad, but true. I don't seek them out either - they just spring up.Cyclefree said:
Rather more mainstream than people are assuming. Hatred of Israel and Jews and an indifference to anti-Semitism and / or a willingness to excuse it or justify it, coupled with a refusal to accept that, too often, Islam or Islamism is the source of it seems par for the course In some sections of the Left. It must make decent Lefties despair. But despairing rather than acting is all they do. So my sympathy for them is beginning to run out, frankly.Wanderer said:
I have been wondering how mainstream her views are on the Corbynite left.Cyclefree said:Relevant to this article and to Naz Shah.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/what-a-week-for-integration-britain/
Oh - and why is anyone surprised that Corbyn is taking no action against Ms Shah. He would have to confront his own support for anti-Semites and Hamas. Better to pretend that she is so stupid that she repeatedly writes and says things she doesn't believe.0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
What a clusterfuck
“Jeremy Corbyn and Naz Shah have mutually agreed that she is administratively suspended from the Labour Party by the General Secretary."
"mutually agreed" - FFS...0 -
http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Nigel-Farage-Hitler-Moustache-670x482.pngStark_Dawning said:The Naz Shah thing can only be good for Remain. The very word 'anti-Semitism' summons up one thing: a bloke with a silly moustache stomping around Europe raising hell. Like it or loathe it, the plodding EU with its mundane rules, its trivial preoccupations and its political correctness is in absolute contrast to the horrors that preceded its existence. Shah has given us a glimpse of humanity's dark past. Reminded of that, people will opt to stick with what's familiar and boring.
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Like when my girlfriend and I mutually agreed she was dumping me.FrancisUrquhart said:TheScreamingEagles said:What a clusterfuck
“Jeremy Corbyn and Naz Shah have mutually agreed that she is administratively suspended from the Labour Party by the General Secretary."
"mutually agreed" - FFS...0 -
I bet Shah wishes she had not made that mealy mouthed apology now..0
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Based on the chatter it does look like a Fiorina VP announcement.Wanderer said:
What is Lyin' Ted up to?Casino_Royale said:I've just shed my Cruz..
Hope he quits now!
She's probably ruthless enough to be thinking about how she could end up on top of the ticket in a brokered convention.0 -
Police chief suspended over Hillsborough
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201
That's buried the Labour bad news....not that the BBC have been particularly interested.0 -
The idea she'd last until after the MoL election was fanciful in the extreme.SeanT said:And there we are. The Full Omnishambles is Served
@JPonpolitics 1m1 minute ago
Naz Shah will be suspended shortly, I understand0 -
ouch.Plato_Says said:
He's been having an affair with Lily Munster?Sean_F said:
Suspending his campaign?Plato_Says said:Cruz major announcement at 4pm according to Telegraph
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Very good :-)TheScreamingEagles said:
Like when my girlfriend and I mutually agreed she was dumping me.FrancisUrquhart said:TheScreamingEagles said:What a clusterfuck
“Jeremy Corbyn and Naz Shah have mutually agreed that she is administratively suspended from the Labour Party by the General Secretary."
"mutually agreed" - FFS...0 -
I've a mate called Hymie Cohen keen to get into politics, any chance of him getting the Labour nomination in Bradford West?0
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Ken Livingstone on Naz Shah as she is suspended from Labour: "No I don’t think her comments were anti-Semitic." @LBC0
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Labour need to find their Theresa May to deliver a 'nasty party' wake up call speech. Except in their case it will be, "Some people call us the Nazi party."TheScreamingEagles said:Ken Livingstone on Naz Shah as she is suspended from Labour: "No I don’t think her comments were anti-Semitic." @LBC
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BBC - MP Naz Shah suspended from LabourFrancisUrquhart said:Police chief suspended over Hillsborough
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201
That's buried the Labour bad news....not that the BBC have been particularly interested.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704
Aunty got there in the end bless her, - front page too.
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I wondered how long before Red Ken stuck his oar in....TheScreamingEagles said:Ken Livingstone on Naz Shah as she is suspended from Labour: "No I don’t think her comments were anti-Semitic." @LBC
0 -
Blimey, the Acela Express (wot gave its name to the Acela Primaries in the NE United States last night) can get up to 150 mph.
HS1 (ie. the Javelin trains) in Kent is only permitted a top speed of 140 mph!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express0 -
One does wonder just how far one has to go before Ken would consider comments anti-Semitic.TheScreamingEagles said:Ken Livingstone on Naz Shah as she is suspended from Labour: "No I don’t think her comments were anti-Semitic." @LBC
He'd probably excuse Goebbels.0 -
administratively suspendedFrancisUrquhart said:TheScreamingEagles said:What a clusterfuck
“Jeremy Corbyn and Naz Shah have mutually agreed that she is administratively suspended from the Labour Party by the General Secretary."
"mutually agreed" - FFS...0 -
@hugorifkind: That's not just your normal, everyday political comms fuck-up. That takes real flair and commitment.0
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but what about respective turnouts?rcs1000 said:
The reason Remain is confident is that - excluding Orb - there are a large number of Don't Knows. The evidence is that DKs have the same propensity to vote as people who express an opinion, and that DKs typically break 2:1 for the status quo during referenda. This is backed up by the forced choice question used some pollsters, which see DKs also break for Remain.Luckyguy1983 said:The two sides appear to be just about neck and neck in the polls. This could well be illusory, and Remain could win with a handsome margin, but we no evidence that that will happen.
So why all the pages and pages of diagnosis and advice on where it's all gone wrong for Leave? If you told me before this campaign started that Leave would be in the position they are now, I wouldn't have believed you.
If anything, is it not more interesting to consider why Remain aren't at least 10 points clear, and why they seem to be underperforming expectations so markedly? What can Remain do to turn things around? That might be an interesting thread.
Now, that doesn't mean we should be disheartened: there are still eight weeks to go, and Remain seems to be largely out of ideas. We stand a good chance of getting this over the line, but (if we're going to be frank) it's a one-in-four, or maybe one-in-three.
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What exactly does being suspended from the Labour Party actually mean..Has Shah been fired...0
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Will I need to take care of mobile data in the Netherlands or does the EU help keep my bills down ?0
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But Cameron should be locked up for doing nothing illegal.....what an odd world Red Ken lives in.Casino_Royale said:
One does wonder just how far one has to go before Ken would consider comments anti-Semitic.TheScreamingEagles said:Ken Livingstone on Naz Shah as she is suspended from Labour: "No I don’t think her comments were anti-Semitic." @LBC
He'd probably excuse Goebbels.0 -
Which network are you on.Pulpstar said:Will I need to take care of mobile data in the Netherlands or does the EU help keep my bills down ?
If you're with Three you're sorted.0 -
She will sit on the benches but "not take the Labour whip".richardDodd said:What exactly does being suspended from the Labour Party actually mean..Has Shah been fired...
For 6 months..0 -
That's one of our hopes.TCPoliticalBetting said:
but what about respective turnouts?rcs1000 said:
The reason Remain is confident is that - excluding Orb - there are a large number of Don't Knows. The evidence is that DKs have the same propensity to vote as people who express an opinion, and that DKs typically break 2:1 for the status quo during referenda. This is backed up by the forced choice question used some pollsters, which see DKs also break for Remain.Luckyguy1983 said:The two sides appear to be just about neck and neck in the polls. This could well be illusory, and Remain could win with a handsome margin, but we no evidence that that will happen.
So why all the pages and pages of diagnosis and advice on where it's all gone wrong for Leave? If you told me before this campaign started that Leave would be in the position they are now, I wouldn't have believed you.
If anything, is it not more interesting to consider why Remain aren't at least 10 points clear, and why they seem to be underperforming expectations so markedly? What can Remain do to turn things around? That might be an interesting thread.
Now, that doesn't mean we should be disheartened: there are still eight weeks to go, and Remain seems to be largely out of ideas. We stand a good chance of getting this over the line, but (if we're going to be frank) it's a one-in-four, or maybe one-in-three.
The second is that the polls - like in Austria - are simply wrong.0 -
I am with 3 !TheScreamingEagles said:
Which network are you on.Pulpstar said:Will I need to take care of mobile data in the Netherlands or does the EU help keep my bills down ?
If you're with Three you're sorted.
They're putting my bill up to £20 a month from May, but I can't find a cheaper all you can eat data one...
Clever !0 -
Ilford North (large Muslim population) was gained by Labour in 2015 whilst the tories held Harrow east (large Hindu population) and also held Hendon ( large jewish population) do you think the Tory candidate jewishness played a big part in him (very narrowly) losing?Sunil_Prasannan said:0 -
Election Data: Spoke to swing voters in Nuneaton this week with @JamesDMorris and will be publishing the findings in full after May 5th. Instructive.0
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@jameskirkup: Was about to start writing leader on Labour. Think I'll have another coffee first, just in case something else explodes. Seumas gone by 6pm?0
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It's a very nice train service, albeit extremely expensive.Sunil_Prasannan said:Blimey, the Acela Express (wot gave its name to the Acela Primaries in the NE United States last night) can get up to 150 mph.
HS1 (ie. the Javelin trains) in Kent is only permitted a top speed of 140 mph!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express0 -
Ken Livingstone on Naz Shah as she is suspended from Labour: "No I don’t think her comments were anti-Semitic." @LBC0
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When does anti-Zionism turn to Anti-semitism?TheScreamingEagles said:Ken Livingstone on Naz Shah as she is suspended from Labour: "No I don’t think her comments were anti-Semitic." @LBC
0 -
I could swear I have read this article before from Mr Meeks. Is it deja vu?
innocent face thingy0 -
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Sort of OT I wonder if this Shah/semitic storm is positive for Leave, subliminally feeding a xenophobic message.
You know, bloody foreigners coming over here and interfering.0 -
http://www.three.co.uk/Support/Roaming_and_international/Mobile_Roaming?content_aid=1214306363573Pulpstar said:
I am with 3 !TheScreamingEagles said:
Which network are you on.Pulpstar said:Will I need to take care of mobile data in the Netherlands or does the EU help keep my bills down ?
If you're with Three you're sorted.0 -
Not sure the Guardian want him back...and the Tories will be all out "Operation Save Chairman Milne"...Scott_P said:@jameskirkup: Was about to start writing leader on Labour. Think I'll have another coffee first, just in case something else explodes. Seumas gone by 6pm?
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So she's on the Naughty Step then? Until we've all forgotten about her vileness?TGOHF said:
She will sit on the benches but "not take the Labour whip".richardDodd said:What exactly does being suspended from the Labour Party actually mean..Has Shah been fired...
For 6 months..0
