If my Conservative Party membership hadn't lapsed years ago I would have just torn up my membership card over the news that the government is prepared to cut a deal with the trade unions, of all people, to water down a key a manifesto commitment of a Trade Union Bill, in exchange for the unions campaigning for Remain, and for a derisory amounts as well, so it's not even like they drove a hard bargain.
If my Conservative Party membership hadn't lapsed years ago I would have just torn up my membership card over the news that the government is prepared to cut a deal with the trade unions, of all people, to water down a key a manifesto commitment of a Trade Union Bill, in exchange for the unions campaigning for Remain, and for a derisory amounts as well, so it's not even like they drove a hard bargain.
Pathetic.
Do you know what the concession was? I saw the tweet earlier but nothing more.
If my Conservative Party membership hadn't lapsed years ago I would have just torn up my membership card over the news that the government is prepared to cut a deal with the trade unions, of all people, to water down a key a manifesto commitment of a Trade Union Bill, in exchange for the unions campaigning for Remain, and for a derisory amounts as well, so it's not even like they drove a hard bargain.
Pathetic.
But you have to understand that the establishment view our membership of the European Union as more important than anything else.
Nothing isn't worth being sacrificed at its altar.
Can I use this opportunity to call out the 538 bullshit.
I mean, in PA, Trump was <1% to get the 56% he did. Did he really hit a one in a hundred shot?</p>
The one in ten shots for Trump just keep going the same way. By now it must be a cumulative one in ten thousand shot, i.e. it should happen every 40,000 years but it's already happened after fewer than 250 years of the American republic. Or the model is wrong
Related with Fiorina being picked as Cruz's VP, Cruz and Fiorina are going tomorrow on a tour of California, so he probably thinks that Indiana is already lost.
Cruz has tanked in the opinion polls.
You have to wonder what Fiorina thinks is in it for her at this point.
Dunno. Does it enhance her credibility next time? I mean, if he were nominated it certainly does but...
A simpler answer is that she likes the limelight. Remember, she has never won any elected office. I doubt that is a record she will change at any point in the future, so what has she to lose?
“If Mr Corbyn had serious aspirations to leadership he would tackle this problem head-on. Instead it falls to Labour’s moderates to ask themselves how long they will tolerate this state of affairs. Edmund Burke wrote that “the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”. Labour’s inaction over anti-Semitism is a stigma that must now be erased by the good people in its ranks.”
Can you imagine the Conservative Party sitting idly by while a disgraced MP blamed their hatred on a wider culture of hatred within the party? Of course not, they're just better at not getting caught, through a culture in which the Mark Clarkes of this world prosper.
What you're failing to see is that your vote is already in the bag - we don't have to convince you to vote to leave on June 23rd. Even if the option was openly EFTA/EEA, it's unlikely that anyone already convinced to leave the EU would not take the opportunity to get at least that far.
So, for those in the middle, EEA offers security of single market - i.e. no economic reason not to leave - and only 25% max of the EU law is EEA applicable.
Also, the simple fact is that most of the regulations for trade are being implemented by the EU, but being written at a much more global level - GSM, Codex, UNECE, ISO etc. This is because the WTO's treaty on Technical Barriers to Trade makes it an obligation to take on board the most globally recognised standard in local regulation. The EU signed up to it.
I get all that, EEA/EFTA is an EU-lite. For me it is sub-optimal but that's by the by.
Thing is, a) it is not on the table, and b) as has been pointed out on here, it would be a very tricky sell if it were.
EFTA/EEA is NOT EU lite - it is not a political union. EFTA is exactly what it says on the tin - a Free Trade Association, which allows the free movement of LABOUR.
Because of that, and because EFTA would then be the 4th largest trading block on the planet behind USA/China/EU - it would then have a lot of freedom to start the process of proper trade liberalisation (which is the way the world is going outside of the EU).
Not only that, If we did join EFTA, it is at least a serious possibility that the Danes and Swedes might follow.
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
“If Mr Corbyn had serious aspirations to leadership he would tackle this problem head-on. Instead it falls to Labour’s moderates to ask themselves how long they will tolerate this state of affairs. Edmund Burke wrote that “the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”. Labour’s inaction over anti-Semitism is a stigma that must now be erased by the good people in its ranks.”
The total chaos at the top of Labour, in one article. Also names Seamus Milne as the guy who decaffeinated the Naz Shah apology, which is surely right.
“If Mr Corbyn had serious aspirations to leadership he would tackle this problem head-on. Instead it falls to Labour’s moderates to ask themselves how long they will tolerate this state of affairs. Edmund Burke wrote that “the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”. Labour’s inaction over anti-Semitism is a stigma that must now be erased by the good people in its ranks.”
The total chaos at the top of Labour, in one article. Also names Seamus Milne as the guy who decaffeinated the Naz Shah apology, which is surely right.
If my Conservative Party membership hadn't lapsed years ago I would have just torn up my membership card over the news that the government is prepared to cut a deal with the trade unions, of all people, to water down a key a manifesto commitment of a Trade Union Bill, in exchange for the unions campaigning for Remain, and for a derisory amounts as well, so it's not even like they drove a hard bargain.
Pathetic.
Do you know what the concession was? I saw the tweet earlier but nothing more.
Beer and sandwiches in Downing Street with a Tory Prime Minister ?
I think he's right. We should vote to leave, but if we don't then there is absolutely no point sitting on our hands - we should join the Euro, muscle the French out of the way and try to restore some order to the whole thing. If you're going to be in, be right in the middle calling the shots as best you can - sitting on the side lines (In Europe, not Run by Europe) is a fantasy of Major and Cameron's warped mentality. It's a superstate - be a member, or don't be a member, but don't just be a vassal state to it.
The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.
I'm not sure that doing no work and it having no effect on the service is the way to prove your essential value.
Did I say it had no effect on the service? Hunt was claiming that junior doctors were putting lives at risk. He was scare mongering. He was lying, as usual. Hospitals have put in a lot of effort to ensure that care was safe over the last 2 days.
There's a massive thunderstorm in Pimlico at the minute. From where I'm standing the last two forks have been right above Mr Hunt's house.
“If Mr Corbyn had serious aspirations to leadership he would tackle this problem head-on. Instead it falls to Labour’s moderates to ask themselves how long they will tolerate this state of affairs. Edmund Burke wrote that “the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”. Labour’s inaction over anti-Semitism is a stigma that must now be erased by the good people in its ranks.”
The total chaos at the top of Labour, in one article. Also names Seamus Milne as the guy who decaffeinated the Naz Shah apology, which is surely right.
The weird thing about Milne is that I always expected him to hold vile opinions, and express them happily. He's not called "shameless Milne" for nothing.
But I also expected him to be basically competent at media management. He was comment editor at the Guardian for a decade. His dad was BBC Director General. He knows how the media works, he knows how narratives unfold and stories backfire.
Farage has said he doesn't care how his name is pronounced.
but Cameron still used the term "forigen" in a derogatory way. Any way just wanted to see how quick Tories would be to defend him even though I know it wasn't actually racist and niether waas Shah's comment it was stupid.
It's a pattern of behaviour, and association, not just one hot-headed remark. .
That is indeed the key test in these matters as far as I'm concerned, or one of them at any rate. A single misdeed is easily forgiven as an error or exageration of true belief, even if shameful. If enough evidence emerges that the views are no surprise and cannot credibly be justified as aberrant, well, that;s another matter.
Not only that, If we did join EFTA, it is at least a serious possibility that the Danes and Swedes might follow.
All true. But ivory tower thinking.
It's too complicated to sell on the doorstep, you have about 10 seconds before most of the voters lose interest. It won't stop any immigration which will lose you a chunk of voters before you start, because they won't think it worth the risk without the payoff. Since the polls are neck and neck if you lose a chunk of voters you might as well go home. If watching the successful spin machine of Blair and Campbell has told us anything, its have a simple message and repeat it endlessly until it cuts through.
Can I use this opportunity to call out the 538 bullshit.
I mean, in PA, Trump was <1% to get the 56% he did. Did he really hit a one in a hundred shot?</p>
The one in ten shots for Trump just keep going the same way. By now it must be a cumulative one in ten thousand shot, i.e. it should happen every 40,000 years but it's already happened after fewer than 250 years of the American republic. Or the model is wrong
Everyone knows that 1 in 100 shots come up 9 times out of 10 - Terry Pratchett.
Not only that, If we did join EFTA, it is at least a serious possibility that the Danes and Swedes might follow.
All true. But ivory tower thinking.
It's too complicated to sell on the doorstep, you have about 10 seconds before most of the voters lose interest. It won't stop any immigration which will lose you a chunk of voters before you start, because they won't think it worth the risk without the payoff. Since the polls are neck and neck if you lose a chunk of voters you might as well go home. If watching the successful spin machine of Blair and Campbell has told us anything, its have a simple message and repeat it endlessly until it cuts through.
The message is already dead - Vote Leave don't have a plan, and it's clear that as an organisation they don't have a clue what leave looks like - and that will be what loses the referendum for them.
Can I use this opportunity to call out the 538 bullshit.
I mean, in PA, Trump was <1% to get the 56% he did. Did he really hit a one in a hundred shot?</p>
The one in ten shots for Trump just keep going the same way. By now it must be a cumulative one in ten thousand shot, i.e. it should happen every 40,000 years but it's already happened after fewer than 250 years of the American republic. Or the model is wrong
Everyone knows that 1 in 100 shots come up 9 times out of 10 - Terry Pratchett.
Ready to be called a naive tribalist (and perhaps I am), but I personally believe Naz Shah was sincere in her apology.
Even so, the fact she said the things in the first place can't be brushed under the carpet. If it were up to me, I would suspend her from the party for a minimum of six months to a year, and then after that consider re-admitting her to the party ONLY IF she'd taken steps to prove she was genuinely remorseful and had genuinely changed her views.
Farage has said he doesn't care how his name is pronounced.
but Cameron still used the term "forigen" in a derogatory way. Any way just wanted to see how quick Tories would be to defend him even though I know it wasn't actually racist and niether waas Shah's comment it was stupid.
It's a pattern of behaviour, and association, not just one hot-headed remark. .
That is indeed the key test in these matters as far as I'm concerned, or one of them at any rate. A single misdeed is easily forgiven as an error or exageration of true belief, even if shameful. If enough evidence emerges that the views are no surprise and cannot credibly be justified as aberrant, well, that;s another matter.
And here's a British Muslim bravely admitting that this is a big problem in his community.
Yet this is precisely why anti-Semitism among British Muslims is so difficult to eradicate. Shah, like anyone else, knows what she is supposed to think.
Her statement after the news broke shows that well enough, the typical regret and the will to do better. But changing someone’s point of view more profoundly takes contact, not greater wariness or a staged dialogue
Depressing how much work there may be to do.Not just there, but still.
I think Conservative eurosceptics intending to vote Remain are making a serious mistake.
I am a conservative eurosceptic and will vote remain and am not making a mistake. The mistake would be to have no place at the table as the EU goes into crisis over the next few years. However, I do respect your desire to leave and neither side is making a mistake if they are true to their beliefs, it is a matter of opinion
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
The new Contract is cost neutral in terms of pay. All of the details above are exceeded by other ones being removed. According to the DoH pay calculator many juniors working in the front line get paycuts of 20%. Those working in labs get a payrise. Its a crap contact which is why 98% voted against it and 80% struck yesterday and today.
There are very many other problems with the contract other than pay. Hunt is simply lying when he says that Saturday pay is the only issue that is not agreed.
Not only that, If we did join EFTA, it is at least a serious possibility that the Danes and Swedes might follow.
All true. But ivory tower thinking.
It's too complicated to sell on the doorstep, you have about 10 seconds before most of the voters lose interest. It won't stop any immigration which will lose you a chunk of voters before you start, because they won't think it worth the risk without the payoff. Since the polls are neck and neck if you lose a chunk of voters you might as well go home. If watching the successful spin machine of Blair and Campbell has told us anything, its have a simple message and repeat it endlessly until it cuts through.
The message is already dead - Vote Leave don't have a plan, and it's clear that as an organisation they don't have a clue what leave looks like - and that will be what loses the referendum for them.
It's very clear what Leave looks like. It's not being in the EU.
Ready to be called a naive tribalist (and perhaps I am), but I personally believe Naz Shah was sincere in her apology.
Even so, the fact she said the things in the first place can't be brushed under the carpet. If it were up to me, I would suspend her from the party for a minimum of six months to a year, and then after that consider re-admitting her to the party ONLY IF she'd taken steps to prove she was genuinely remorseful and had genuinely changed her views.
Naive tribalist .... (but obviously not of Israel) ....
@joerichlaw: Labour HQ's edited Naz Shah's "apology" because admission of any anti-Semitism means an automatic lifetime ban under Party rules @DPJHodges
Just remember that tariffs are set at the IMPORT price, not the SALE price. If a tariff is 10% and the mark-up is 100% (not unusual to cover wages/ oncosts/ profit) then the effective tariff is only 5%.
“If Mr Corbyn had serious aspirations to leadership he would tackle this problem head-on. Instead it falls to Labour’s moderates to ask themselves how long they will tolerate this state of affairs. Edmund Burke wrote that “the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”. Labour’s inaction over anti-Semitism is a stigma that must now be erased by the good people in its ranks.”
The total chaos at the top of Labour, in one article. Also names Seamus Milne as the guy who decaffeinated the Naz Shah apology, which is surely right.
The weird thing about Milne is that I always expected him to hold vile opinions, and express them happily. He's not called "shameless Milne" for nothing.
But I also expected him to be basically competent at media management. He was comment editor at the Guardian for a decade. His dad was BBC Director General. He knows how the media works, he knows how narratives unfold and stories backfire.
Yet he's shite. Absolutely, totally shite.
I didn't realise he is the late Alastair Milne's son. A very good DG who unusually wouldn't allow Thatcher or her acolytes to trample over the BBC. He ultimately failed and Thatcher got her way but he put down a marker and was undoubtably a man of principle.
'@joerichlaw: Labour HQ's edited Naz Shah's "apology" because admission of any anti-Semitism means an automatic lifetime ban under Party rules @DPJHodges'
Seems that a lot of people agree & explains why Labourlist has suspended comments.
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
The new Contract is cost neutral in terms of pay. All of the details above are exceeded by other ones being removed. According to the DoH pay calculator many juniors working in the front line get paycuts of 20%. Those working in labs get a payrise. Its a crap contact which is why 98% voted against it and 80% struck yesterday and today.
There are very many other problems with the contract other than pay. Hunt is simply lying when he says that Saturday pay is the only issue that is not agreed.
It is a war of attrition and Hunt will win the day and maybe return to the back benches in due course. There seems to be a recent movement by the press against the doctors and I was surprised to read once such article in the Guardian on line. No government can afford to lose a strike as bitter as this and time is on Hunt's side.
Carly was spotted on a plane to Indy and has been seen there.
Trump has raised the stakes -he will be endorsed this evening by Bobby Knight, legendary coach of the Hoosiers, on live TV. I suspect that counts more in Indiana than Carly. Another Trump trump. Last poll I saw Trump was leading by 8.
You don't announce veep choices in April! He's desperate.
Indiana represents all the marbles - Cruz (or is it Crasich?) loses, he's toast. If Trump loses, he has 6 weeks after California to scuttle round and vacuum up enough delegates before the convention July 18,
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
Come on john this is a betting site so I presume you're numerate. Just do the sums if you believe Hunt is telling the truth...
You're going to have the same number of junior doctors and going to make them work fewer hours and are going to spread those fewer hours over 7 days rather than 5. Even you should see that the sums don't add up and a desperately thin coverage will be made even thinner by Hunt's crass stupidity.
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets. '
The new Contract is cost neutral in terms of pay. All of the details above are exceeded by other ones being removed. According to the DoH pay calculator many juniors working in the front line get paycuts of 20%. Those working in labs get a payrise. Its a crap contact which is why 98% voted against it and 80% struck yesterday and today.
There are very many other problems with the contract other than pay. Hunt is simply lying when he says that Saturday pay is the only issue that is not agreed.'
Not only that, If we did join EFTA, it is at least a serious possibility that the Danes and Swedes might follow.
All true. But ivory tower thinking.
It's too complicated to sell on the doorstep, you have about 10 seconds before most of the voters lose interest. It won't stop any immigration which will lose you a chunk of voters before you start, because they won't think it worth the risk without the payoff. Since the polls are neck and neck if you lose a chunk of voters you might as well go home. If watching the successful spin machine of Blair and Campbell has told us anything, its have a simple message and repeat it endlessly until it cuts through.
The message is already dead - Vote Leave don't have a plan, and it's clear that as an organisation they don't have a clue what leave looks like - and that will be what loses the referendum for them.
The Scots came extremely close to leaving the UK with less of a plan than Leave have.
Those who voted to stay did so primarily because of the shared currency/debt, pooled welfare via pensions, a better national defence strategy and Westminster subsidies. Remain has none of those weapons at it's disposal. Nor does it have anything like the level of social integration.
The demographic that kept Scotland in is the one that is pushing for the UK to be out.
Farage has said he doesn't care how his name is pronounced.
but Cameron still used the term "forigen" in a derogatory way. Any way just wanted to see how quick Tories would be to defend him even though I know it wasn't actually racist and niether waas Shah's comment it was stupid.
It's a pattern of behaviour, and association, not just one hot-headed remark. .
That is indeed the key test in these matters as far as I'm concerned, or one of them at any rate. A single misdeed is easily forgiven as an error or exageration of true belief, even if shameful. If enough evidence emerges that the views are no surprise and cannot credibly be justified as aberrant, well, that;s another matter.
And here's a British Muslim bravely admitting that this is a big problem in his community.
As you pointed out in those posts of yours the Middle East is full of people talking of genocide Israelis at least as much as their opponents. i'm struggling to see what all the confected rage is about. It's typical bullshit from people with an agenda
In other news, I see the Tories increasingly have a tight grip on 2nd place in the Scottish election.
That contrasts with Wales, where the Tories look increasingly doomed to 3rd place behind Plaid Cymru, with an outside chance even of 4th place behind UKIP. If so, that would make this the first time since the 1970s that the Tories have done better in an election in Scotland than in Wales.
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets. '
The new Contract is cost neutral in terms of pay. All of the details above are exceeded by other ones being removed. According to the DoH pay calculator many juniors working in the front line get paycuts of 20%. Those working in labs get a payrise. Its a crap contact which is why 98% voted against it and 80% struck yesterday and today.
There are very many other problems with the contract other than pay. Hunt is simply lying when he says that Saturday pay is the only issue that is not agreed.'
Which of the above points is a lie ?
Just do the sums. It doesn't add up. Just tell me how will it work and I'll shut up on the matter.
@joerichlaw: Labour HQ's edited Naz Shah's "apology" because admission of any anti-Semitism means an automatic lifetime ban under Party rules @DPJHodges
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
The new Contract is cost neutral in terms of pay. All of the details above are exceeded by other ones being removed. According to the DoH pay calculator many juniors working in the front line get paycuts of 20%. Those working in labs get a payrise. Its a crap contact which is why 98% voted against it and 80% struck yesterday and today.
There are very many other problems with the contract other than pay. Hunt is simply lying when he says that Saturday pay is the only issue that is not agreed.
It is a war of attrition and Hunt will win the day and maybe return to the back benches in due course. There seems to be a recent movement by the press against the doctors and I was surprised to read once such article in the Guardian on line. No government can afford to lose a strike as bitter as this and time is on Hunt's side.
If it happens then it will be a Pyric victory. The future will be closure of units such as Chorley, as described here:
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
Come on john this is a betting site so I presume you're numerate. Just do the sums if you believe Hunt is telling the truth...
You're going to have the same number of junior doctors and going to make them work fewer hours and are going to spread those fewer hours over 7 days rather than 5. Even you should see that the sums don't add up and a desperately thin coverage will be made even thinner by Hunt's crass stupidity.'
If my Conservative Party membership hadn't lapsed years ago I would have just torn up my membership card over the news that the government is prepared to cut a deal with the trade unions, of all people, to water down a key a manifesto commitment of a Trade Union Bill, in exchange for the unions campaigning for Remain, and for a derisory amounts as well, so it's not even like they drove a hard bargain.
Pathetic.
Do you know what the concession was? I saw the tweet earlier but nothing more.
If my Conservative Party membership hadn't lapsed years ago I would have just torn up my membership card over the news that the government is prepared to cut a deal with the trade unions, of all people, to water down a key a manifesto commitment of a Trade Union Bill, in exchange for the unions campaigning for Remain, and for a derisory amounts as well, so it's not even like they drove a hard bargain.
Pathetic.
Do you know what the concession was? I saw the tweet earlier but nothing more.
I've seen 12 months for implementation rather than 3 months. If the difference is a 9 month delay in order to overturn a Lords block then it's not a massive defeat for the government.
Especially considering using the Parliament Act would presumably taken many more months before the 3 month period started so its basically the same thing anyway!
Much ado about nothing. The e-voting review I hope is nothing more than a review and not permitted OTOH, that would be a travesty to allow that.
Anecdote: Watching the Wales Assembly election debate on BBC the UKIP candidate in reference to leaving the EU got a noisy cheer but from a very small part of the audience.
I think Conservative eurosceptics intending to vote Remain are making a serious mistake.
I am a conservative eurosceptic and will vote remain and am not making a mistake. The mistake would be to have no place at the table as the EU goes into crisis over the next few years. However, I do respect your desire to leave and neither side is making a mistake if they are true to their beliefs, it is a matter of opinion
The mistake you are making is in thinking that there is any choice other than exit or ever closer union. Try looking at this from the EU point if view. They simply cannot afford not to integrate into political union. One thing all sides have been agreed upon for years is that economic and monetary union cannot survive in the long term without political union. We are now in that long term and the EU cannot afford to continue to worry about non Eurozone countries holding things up. Basically we either leave now or go through all the pain of trying to stay in and eventually being forced out anyway. It will be White Wednesday writ huge.
Anecdote: Watching the Wales Assembly election debate on BBC the UKIP candidate in reference to leaving the EU got a noisy cheer but from a very small part of the audience.
Anecdote: Watching the Wales Assembly election debate on BBC the UKIP candidate in reference to leaving the EU got a noisy cheer but from a very small part of the audience.
Ready to be called a naive tribalist (and perhaps I am), but I personally believe Naz Shah was sincere in her apology.
Even so, the fact she said the things in the first place can't be brushed under the carpet. If it were up to me, I would suspend her from the party for a minimum of six months to a year, and then after that consider re-admitting her to the party ONLY IF she'd taken steps to prove she was genuinely remorseful and had genuinely changed her views.
As we are in uncharted territory it's difficult to say but it is either Jezza believes her and being the nice bloke he is, is willing to give everyone a second chance; or he sympathises with her previously expressed views and gave her a slapped wrist. I guess it's 80:20 the former.
Whatever it is, however, to have your decision overturned in hours is dreadful politics and further proof, if proof be needed, that he is not up to the job.
Anecdote: Watching the Wales Assembly election debate on BBC the UKIP candidate in reference to leaving the EU got a noisy cheer but from a very small part of the audience.
I think Conservative eurosceptics intending to vote Remain are making a serious mistake.
I am a conservative eurosceptic and will vote remain and am not making a mistake. The mistake would be to have no place at the table as the EU goes into crisis over the next few years. However, I do respect your desire to leave and neither side is making a mistake if they are true to their beliefs, it is a matter of opinion
The mistake you are making is in thinking that there is any choice other than exit or ever closer union. Try looking at this from the EU point if view. They simply cannot afford not to integrate into political union. One thing all sides have been agreed upon for years is that economic and monetary union cannot survive in the long term without political union. We are now in that long term and the EU cannot afford to continue to worry about non Eurozone countries holding things up. Basically we either leave now or go through all the pain of trying to stay in and eventually being forced out anyway. It will be White Wednesday writ huge.
I respect your opinion and your assumption that the EU will continue on its merry way but I believe the economy and security issues have been proven for remain. I believe that the EU will be forced into more democracy and we must lead that debate from within. I would re-iterate that an opinion is not a mistake, it is an opinion
They are a extremely selective editing of an 80 page contract, and miss out great chunks of pay cuts in other areas.
The lie I refer to is the one that Hunt keeps repeating about the only outstanding issue being Saturday pay. The BMA have repeatedly said there are many other areas of disagreement.
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
The new Contract is cost neutral in terms of pay. All of the details above are exceeded by other ones being removed. According to the DoH pay calculator many juniors working in the front line get paycuts of 20%. Those working in labs get a payrise. Its a crap contact which is why 98% voted against it and 80% struck yesterday and today.
There are very many other problems with the contract other than pay. Hunt is simply lying when he says that Saturday pay is the only issue that is not agreed.
It is a war of attrition and Hunt will win the day and maybe return to the back benches in due course. There seems to be a recent movement by the press against the doctors and I was surprised to read once such article in the Guardian on line. No government can afford to lose a strike as bitter as this and time is on Hunt's side.
If it happens then it will be a Pyric victory. The future will be closure of units such as Chorley, as described here:
I think Conservative eurosceptics intending to vote Remain are making a serious mistake.
I am a conservative eurosceptic and will vote remain and am not making a mistake. The mistake would be to have no place at the table as the EU goes into crisis over the next few years. However, I do respect your desire to leave and neither side is making a mistake if they are true to their beliefs, it is a matter of opinion
The mistake you are making is in thinking that there is any choice other than exit or ever closer union. Try looking at this from the EU point if view. They simply cannot afford not to integrate into political union. One thing all sides have been agreed upon for years is that economic and monetary union cannot survive in the long term without political union. We are now in that long term and the EU cannot afford to continue to worry about non Eurozone countries holding things up. Basically we either leave now or go through all the pain of trying to stay in and eventually being forced out anyway. It will be White Wednesday writ huge.
I believe that the EU will be forced into more democracy
The problem, for me, is that it needs forcing. Only in the face of the greatest of crises does the EU spring into something approaching action, and usually short term action at that, with near open contempt for suggestions of deviating from the preferred path. And greater democratic accountability appears to me to be a deviation from what the EU designers want, something they are forced into, but have no wish to do othewise - it is democratic enough, as they see it, so any more measures are insincere, or as you say, forced, and thus likely not worth the paper it will be written on.
Some of the key movers may even believe, currently, that certain issues have proven the need for changes, but when things quiet, they'll go back to assuming things will be fine.
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
The new Contract is cost neutral in terms of pay. All of the details above are exceeded by other ones being removed. According to the DoH pay calculator many juniors working in the front line get paycuts of 20%. Those working in labs get a payrise. Its a crap contact which is why 98% voted against it and 80% struck yesterday and today.
There are very many other problems with the contract other than pay. Hunt is simply lying when he says that Saturday pay is the only issue that is not agreed.
It is a war of attrition and Hunt will win the day and maybe return to the back benches in due course. There seems to be a recent movement by the press against the doctors and I was surprised to read once such article in the Guardian on line. No government can afford to lose a strike as bitter as this and time is on Hunt's side.
If it happens then it will be a Pyric victory. The future will be closure of units such as Chorley, as described here:
There is a staffing crisis already, and it is getting worse. Coming soon near you.
(Actually not near you as Wales, Scotland and NI are sticking to the old contract)
Wales is a disaster compared to England
There are certainly massive problems in the Welsh NHS. Historically one of these has been medical recruitment, but that may well be signficantly helped by Hunt driving staff over the border.
The problem, for me, is that it needs forcing. Only in the face of the greatest of crises does the EU spring into something approaching action, and usually short term action at that, with near open contempt for suggestions of deviating from the preferred path. And greater democratic accountability appears to me to be a deviation from what the EU designers want, something they are forced into, but have no wish to do othewise - it is democratic enough, as they see it, so any more measures are insincere, or as you say, forced, and thus likely not worth the paper it will be written on.
Some of the key movers may even believe, currently, that certain issues have proven the need for changes, but when things quiet, they'll go back to assuming things will be fine.
Could you not, if you put on your tinfoil hat for a moment, say exactly the same about Westminster?
I think Conservative eurosceptics intending to vote Remain are making a serious mistake.
I am a conservative eurosceptic and will vote remain and am not making a mistake. The mistake would be to have no place at the table as the EU goes into crisis over the next few years. However, I do respect your desire to leave and neither side is making a mistake if they are true to their beliefs, it is a matter of opinion
The mistake you are making is in thinking that there is any choice other than exit or ever closer union. Try looking at this from the EU point if view. They simply cannot afford not to integrate into political union. One thing all sides have been agreed upon for years is that economic and monetary union cannot survive in the long term without political union. We are now in that long term and the EU cannot afford to continue to worry about non Eurozone countries holding things up. Basically we either leave now or go through all the pain of trying to stay in and eventually being forced out anyway. It will be White Wednesday writ huge.
I believe that the EU will be forced into more democracy
The problem, for me, is that it needs forcing. Only in the face of the greatest of crises does the EU spring into something approaching action, and usually short term action at that, with near open contempt for suggestions of deviating from the preferred path. And greater democratic accountability appears to me to be a deviation from what the EU designers want, something they are forced into, but have no wish to do othewise - it is democratic enough, as they see it, so any more measures are insincere, or as you say, forced, and thus likely not worth the paper it will be written on.
Some of the key movers may even believe, currently, that certain issues have proven the need for changes, but when things quiet, they'll go back to assuming things will be fine.
I do not think things will go quiet. The genie is out of the bottle, the eurosceptic movement throughout Europe is on the march and will not be satisfied with the status quo. Change will be forced on the eurocrats and we should be there to help deliver democracy. I would comment that the closer the remain vote is the better to confirm the large amount of anger there is in the UK
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
The new Contract is cost neutral in terms of pay. All of the details above are exceeded by other ones being removed. According to the DoH pay calculator many juniors working in the front line get paycuts of 20%. Those working in labs get a payrise. Its a crap contact which is why 98% voted against it and 80% struck yesterday and today.
There are very many other problems with the contract other than pay. Hunt is simply lying when he says that Saturday pay is the only issue that is not agreed.
It is a war of attrition and Hunt will win the day and maybe return to the back benches in due course. There seems to be a recent movement by the press against the doctors and I was surprised to read once such article in the Guardian on line. No government can afford to lose a strike as bitter as this and time is on Hunt's side.
If it happens then it will be a Pyric victory. The future will be closure of units such as Chorley, as described here:
There is a staffing crisis already, and it is getting worse. Coming soon near you.
(Actually not near you as Wales, Scotland and NI are sticking to the old contract)
Wales is a disaster compared to England
There are certainly massive problems in the Welsh NHS. Historically one of these has been medical recruitment, but that may well be signficantly helped by Hunt driving staff over the border.
I think Conservative eurosceptics intending to vote Remain are making a serious mistake.
I am a conservative eurosceptic and will vote remain and am not making a mistake. The mistake would be to have no place at the table as the EU goes into crisis over the next few years. However, I do respect your desire to leave and neither side is making a mistake if they are true to their beliefs, it is a matter of opinion
The mistake you are making is in thinking that there is any choice other than exit or ever closer union. Try looking at this from the EU point if view. They simply cannot afford not to integrate into political union. One thing all sides have been agreed upon for years is that economic and monetary union cannot survive in the long term without political union. We are now in that long term and the EU cannot afford to continue to worry about non Eurozone countries holding things up. Basically we either leave now or go through all the pain of trying to stay in and eventually being forced out anyway. It will be White Wednesday writ huge.
I respect your opinion and your assumption that the EU will continue on its merry way but I believe the economy and security issues have been proven for remain. I believe that the EU will be forced into more democracy and we must lead that debate from within. I would re-iterate that an opinion is not a mistake, it is an opinion
If they have not been forced into it after 40 years they are not about to start now.
Comments
Pathetic.
Nothing isn't worth being sacrificed at its altar.
“If Mr Corbyn had serious aspirations to leadership he would tackle this problem head-on. Instead it falls to Labour’s moderates to ask themselves how long they will tolerate this state of affairs. Edmund Burke wrote that “the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”. Labour’s inaction over anti-Semitism is a stigma that must now be erased by the good people in its ranks.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/27/jeremy-corbyn-has-turned-the-labour-party-into-a-home-for-anti-s/
Because of that, and because EFTA would then be the 4th largest trading block on the planet behind USA/China/EU - it would then have a lot of freedom to start the process of proper trade liberalisation (which is the way the world is going outside of the EU).
Not only that, If we did join EFTA, it is at least a serious possibility that the Danes and Swedes might follow.
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
It's too complicated to sell on the doorstep, you have about 10 seconds before most of the voters lose interest. It won't stop any immigration which will lose you a chunk of voters before you start, because they won't think it worth the risk without the payoff. Since the polls are neck and neck if you lose a chunk of voters you might as well go home. If watching the successful spin machine of Blair and Campbell has told us anything, its have a simple message and repeat it endlessly until it cuts through.
(I'll get my coat.)
https://twitter.com/MossadNews/status/725399343130402816
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36147942
Even so, the fact she said the things in the first place can't be brushed under the carpet. If it were up to me, I would suspend her from the party for a minimum of six months to a year, and then after that consider re-admitting her to the party ONLY IF she'd taken steps to prove she was genuinely remorseful and had genuinely changed her views.
Her statement after the news broke shows that well enough, the typical regret and the will to do better. But changing someone’s point of view more profoundly takes contact, not greater wariness or a staged dialogue
Depressing how much work there may be to do.Not just there, but still.
There are very many other problems with the contract other than pay. Hunt is simply lying when he says that Saturday pay is the only issue that is not agreed.
It's not being in the EU.
'@joerichlaw: Labour HQ's edited Naz Shah's "apology" because admission of any anti-Semitism means an automatic lifetime ban under Party rules @DPJHodges'
Seems that a lot of people agree & explains why Labourlist has suspended comments.
Trump has raised the stakes -he will be endorsed this evening by Bobby Knight, legendary coach of the Hoosiers, on live TV. I suspect that counts more in Indiana than Carly. Another Trump trump. Last poll I saw Trump was leading by 8.
You don't announce veep choices in April! He's desperate.
Indiana represents all the marbles - Cruz (or is it Crasich?) loses, he's toast. If Trump loses, he has 6 weeks after California to scuttle round and vacuum up enough delegates before the convention July 18,
Saw a t-shirt today -
TRUMP 2016
photo of Trump's head
THERE'LL BE HELL TOUPEE
You're going to have the same number of junior doctors and going to make them work fewer hours and are going to spread those fewer hours over 7 days rather than 5. Even you should see that the sums don't add up and a desperately thin coverage will be made even thinner by Hunt's crass stupidity.
john_zims">@Chris_A
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets. '
The new Contract is cost neutral in terms of pay. All of the details above are exceeded by other ones being removed. According to the DoH pay calculator many juniors working in the front line get paycuts of 20%. Those working in labs get a payrise. Its a crap contact which is why 98% voted against it and 80% struck yesterday and today.
There are very many other problems with the contract other than pay. Hunt is simply lying when he says that Saturday pay is the only issue that is not agreed.'
Which of the above points is a lie ?
Those who voted to stay did so primarily because of the shared currency/debt, pooled welfare via pensions, a better national defence strategy and Westminster subsidies. Remain has none of those weapons at it's disposal. Nor does it have anything like the level of social integration.
The demographic that kept Scotland in is the one that is pushing for the UK to be out.
If the working class vote, we'll Leave.
That contrasts with Wales, where the Tories look increasingly doomed to 3rd place behind Plaid Cymru, with an outside chance even of 4th place behind UKIP. If so, that would make this the first time since the 1970s that the Tories have done better in an election in Scotland than in Wales.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/the-tories-return-new-poll-puts-ruth-davidson-ahead-of-labour-in-scotland/
http://m.chorley-guardian.co.uk/news/local/no-date-for-reopening-of-chorley-hospital-s-accident-and-emergency-unit-says-trust-chief-executive-1-7877346
There is a staffing crisis already, and it is getting worse. Coming soon near you.
(Actually not near you as Wales, Scotland and NI are sticking to the old contract)
ohn_zims">@Chris_A
'The most disappointed people in Britain today? Hunt's spin doctors who, despite their zeal, and their master's scaremongering, have been unable to find a death to pin on the junior doctors' strike.'
-Average salary increase of 13.5%
-Basic starting salary of £27,000 compared to £22,636 now - 19 %
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am - 9 pm Sunday
- Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am
- Maximum hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from 7 to 4
-No doctor ever rostered two weekends in a row
Time for junior doctors to get their greedy snouts out of the taxpayer's trough and cut the crap about patient safety,this is all about filling their pockets.
Come on john this is a betting site so I presume you're numerate. Just do the sums if you believe Hunt is telling the truth...
You're going to have the same number of junior doctors and going to make them work fewer hours and are going to spread those fewer hours over 7 days rather than 5. Even you should see that the sums don't add up and a desperately thin coverage will be made even thinner by Hunt's crass stupidity.'
Which of the above points are lies ?
In other words, this is Schrodinger’s Revival: it is both real and not real and it all depends upon how you look at, or think about, it
Especially considering using the Parliament Act would presumably taken many more months before the 3 month period started so its basically the same thing anyway!
Much ado about nothing. The e-voting review I hope is nothing more than a review and not permitted OTOH, that would be a travesty to allow that.
Whatever it is, however, to have your decision overturned in hours is dreadful politics and further proof, if proof be needed, that he is not up to the job.
. Take a look at the last screen shot in link
http://hurryupharry.org/2016/04/27/the-issue-is-the-labour-party-leadership/
Which of the above points is a lie ?
@John_zims
They are a extremely selective editing of an 80 page contract, and miss out great chunks of pay cuts in other areas.
The lie I refer to is the one that Hunt keeps repeating about the only outstanding issue being Saturday pay. The BMA have repeatedly said there are many other areas of disagreement.
Some of the key movers may even believe, currently, that certain issues have proven the need for changes, but when things quiet, they'll go back to assuming things will be fine.
http://thecentreleft.blogspot.com/2016/04/this-kind-of-racism-has-not-happened-in.html#more
That was written before the latest bunch of revelations
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD