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edited April 2016 in General

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  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Interesting as always Alastair

    Tweet of the day

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/725315632066088960
  • TheWhiteRabbit
    TheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    I agree Alastair (mostly).

    Talking about the economy, Remain will always win. It's their game. It's about business, not people.

    Talking about immigration is all about people, and communities, streets and households. Leave will always win.

    Don't change the rules, change the game.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    edited April 2016
    3 million more migrants in Britain by 2030
    3 million more migrants in Britain by 2030..


    :o
  • MaxPB
    MaxPB Posts: 40,327
    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Plato_Says said:

    https://twitter.com/PlatoSays/status/725311577751179264

    This is why she should have resigned. By supporting her Corbyn has blown it up into something much bigger.

    A Labour MP is going to address the Commons and personally apologise for being an anti-Semite.

    I mean, how much worse can it get? Can't they see how damaging it is?
    Damaging from who's point of view though? From a point of view which gets 10-15% of their total votes from Muslims, probably not. There is going to be a lot more handwringing and acceptance of disturbing views by Labour in the coming years as they become more dependent on inner cities. Ask surbiton of this parish, Muslim vote harvesting is a Labour policy, he has said as much time and again.
    Damaging to Labour in two ways: it angers the Jewish community, deeply, and they are articulate and often influential. Look at ex-BBC head Danny Cohen's remarks on Labour, the other day. In future, Labour will get a much more sceptical reaction from Jewish journalists, academics, businessmen.

    Also it alienates the white working class vote, even further, as Labour is perceived to pander to the Islamic vote to such an extent it openly tolerates racism.

    Anti-Semitism is virtually non-existent in WWC Britain.
    I think the equation that Labour have made is that there are 400,000 Jews eligible to vote in Britain and about 2.5m Muslims, the former group is shrinking and the latter is the fastest growing demographic in Britain.

    I think they figure that even if they lose some votes they get more out of motivating Muslims to vote for them.
    I wouldn't say "Labour" as a whole. Many Labour activists have nothing but contempt for anti-Semitism.

    But, I think some members of the Party have made that calculation.
    Yes, of course, I don't doubt that there are activists in Labour who abhor it and are 100% against it, but I fear the leadership has looked at the sums and decided that the numbers make sense to pursue a policy platform which attracts Muslim voters.
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,728
    edited April 2016
    http://order-order.com/2016/04/27/naz-shahs-pro-hamas-tweets/

    Ball back in Jezza court...or is he too busy heading to BHS to stock up on bargain basement new suits?
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Meeks once again advising Leave what to do, does anybody bother to read this anymore?
  • tlg86
    tlg86 Posts: 26,950
    Was this written before or after the polls started to move to Leave? :D
  • MaxPB
    MaxPB Posts: 40,327
    I think it isn't immigration specifically, but the effect of immigration on public service and pay which is going to be a big factor. As TSE said, the NHS is a massive vote mover.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    I see I've been Moderated :D but it looks like the 3 million more migrants part of the 3 million more migrants vs 3 million jobs is actually... true !
  • MikeK
    MikeK Posts: 9,053
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-36150860
    Theresa May pays tribute to Hillsborough families

    May made a powerful statement to the House on the Hillsborough disaster.
    Makes her case to replace cameron a near certainty.
  • AndyJS
    AndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Interesting although let's not forget there was an ICM poll yesterday showing Leave ahead.
  • Tim
    Tim Posts: 44
    Is it possible to have a quota on the number of articles in which Alastair Meeks editorialises against the Leave campaign? Whatever his personal views, Mike used to focus on the betting.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    MaxPB said:

    I think it isn't immigration specifically, but the effect of immigration on public service and pay which is going to be a big factor. As TSE said, the NHS is a massive vote mover.

    I've written a piece for Sunday about why using the NHS might cause Leave some problems.

    Is all about nuance. Anyone who considers immigration such an important issue is already voting Leave.

    One of the reasons the Tories didn't talk much about immigration during the election was that it put off floating voters.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    SeanT said:

    I genuinely don't understand. Alistair Meeks is an intelligent person. Does he think we don't read polls?

    *baffled*

    Meeks is not a PB wannabe columnist he is a paid up Daveist agitator.
  • MaxPB
    MaxPB Posts: 40,327
    blackburn63 said:

    Meeks once again advising Leave what to do, does anybody bother to read this anymore?

    Read the header, it is actually good advice.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    MikeK said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-36150860
    Theresa May pays tribute to Hillsborough families

    May made a powerful statement to the House on the Hillsborough disaster.
    Makes her case to replace cameron a near certainty.

    She's also positioned herself best (Despite the nonsense about remaining in EU/leaving EHCR) for a narrow remain victory.

    Osborne needs 60+% remain, May doesn't I think - and no matter the outcome, May is LIVE.
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    MaxPB said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Meeks once again advising Leave what to do, does anybody bother to read this anymore?

    Read the header, it is actually good advice.
    Nah, the boy has cried wolf too often.
  • Plato_Says
    Plato_Says Posts: 11,822
    blackburn63 said:

    Meeks once again advising Leave what to do, does anybody bother to read this anymore?

    No. I prefer Don Brind - those I manage to read several sentences - sometimes a whole paragraph or two.
  • MaxPB
    MaxPB Posts: 40,327
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it isn't immigration specifically, but the effect of immigration on public service and pay which is going to be a big factor. As TSE said, the NHS is a massive vote mover.

    I've written a piece for Sunday about why using the NHS might cause Leave some problems.

    Is all about nuance. Anyone who considers immigration such an important issue is already voting Leave.

    One of the reasons the Tories didn't talk much about immigration during the election was that it put off floating voters.
    Again, I don't disagree which is why there can't just be a single platform for Leave, but it is all about turnout and getting lazy Labour WWC voters to turn out means getting the immigration message out there. I don't much like the idea of campaigning on an immigration platform, but there is no doubt that it will motivate people to turn out.

    I've been working on a post-Brexit strategy for a piece of political analysis at work btw, I wish I could forward it to Vote Leave!
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it isn't immigration specifically, but the effect of immigration on public service and pay which is going to be a big factor. As TSE said, the NHS is a massive vote mover.

    I've written a piece for Sunday about why using the NHS might cause Leave some problems.

    Is all about nuance. Anyone who considers immigration such an important issue is already voting Leave.

    One of the reasons the Tories didn't talk much about immigration during the election was that it put off floating voters.
    Again, I don't disagree which is why there can't just be a single platform for Leave, but it is all about turnout and getting lazy Labour WWC voters to turn out means getting the immigration message out there. I don't much like the idea of campaigning on an immigration platform, but there is no doubt that it will motivate people to turn out.

    I've been working on a post-Brexit strategy for a piece of political analysis at work btw, I wish I could forward it to Vote Leave!
    If you want PB to consider it for publication, send it to me.

    I should be meeting someone from Vote Leave in a couple of weeks too.
  • AndyJS
    AndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Trump’s sweep is another humiliating defeat for media and political elites"

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/04/26/trumps-sweep-is-another-humiliating-defeat-for-media-and-political-elites/
  • richardDodd
    richardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The Shah statement to the house amounted to nothing more than a plea to keep her job..
  • OldKingCole
    OldKingCole Posts: 35,275
    Two posters for Leave in farmers field locally. Don't they want the subsidies and cheap European labour?
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    SeanT said:

    lol

    "The Remain side has started the fight at a furious pace, leaving Leave gasping for air after two blows to its solar plexus"

    That's why LEAVE is 20 points behind then, and all the polls show the gap widening. Oh... wait....

    What is the effing point in writing this garbage when everyone on pb knows it is clearly untrue?

    I genuinely don't understand. Alistair Meeks is an intelligent person. Does he think we don't read polls?

    *baffled*

    I wouldn't dispute that Remain has run the better campaign. The reason why things are so close is because people don't like Remain's message.
  • JonnyJimmy
    JonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Maybe worse than her racism, Naz Shah doesn't appear to know the difference between your and you're -

    Naz Shah MP ‏@NazShahBfd Apr 15
    I don't think your being sensitive, your just calling a spade a spade @ayeshahazarika, good piece, keep it up.
    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/04/can-we-afford-be-colourblind-left-wing-politics …
  • MTimT
    MTimT Posts: 7,034
    SeanT said:

    lol

    "The Remain side has started the fight at a furious pace, leaving Leave gasping for air after two blows to its solar plexus"

    That's why LEAVE is 20 points behind then, and all the polls show the gap widening. Oh... wait....

    What is the effing point in writing this garbage when everyone on pb knows it is clearly untrue?

    I genuinely don't understand. Alistair Meeks is an intelligent person. Does he think we don't read polls?

    *baffled*

    I always finding it amusing when someone who is dyed-in-the-wool for policy A considers themselves fit to write about the motivations and strategy of people who are for the diametrically opposed policy B.

    Alistair Meeks may be intelligent, but why anyone would rate his thoughts on the Leave campaign, I do not understand.
  • Stark_Dawning
    Stark_Dawning Posts: 10,202
    The Naz Shah thing can only be good for Remain. The very word 'anti-Semitism' summons up one thing: a bloke with a silly moustache stomping around Europe raising hell. Like it or loathe it, the plodding EU with its mundane rules, its trivial preoccupations and its political correctness is in absolute contrast to the horrors that preceded its existence. Shah has given us a glimpse of humanity's dark past. Reminded of that, people will opt to stick with what's familiar and boring.
  • Floater
    Floater Posts: 14,207
    tic toc

    http://order-order.com/2016/04/27/naz-shahs-parliamentary-aide-suspended-by-labour/
  • FeersumEnjineeya
    FeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,792
    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Why would the issue of public services favour Leave, given the dependence of many of our public services on immigrant staff?
  • dr_spyn
    dr_spyn Posts: 11,312
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it isn't immigration specifically, but the effect of immigration on public service and pay which is going to be a big factor. As TSE said, the NHS is a massive vote mover.

    I've written a piece for Sunday about why using the NHS might cause Leave some problems.

    Is all about nuance. Anyone who considers immigration such an important issue is already voting Leave.

    One of the reasons the Tories didn't talk much about immigration during the election was that it put off floating voters.
    I thought that it might be beyond the pale to offer the Labour candidate a cup of tea in that Labour Controls On Immigration Mug which I bought 2 weeks earlier.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tamcohen: No10 source says message unchanged: Corbyn must act and suspend Naz Shah. 'If he doesn't, people will take a verdict on his leadership'
  • MaxPB
    MaxPB Posts: 40,327
    SeanT said:

    But it repels white voters. That's the point. Labour is in danger of becoming the "Muslim" party, which is a fast track to total self-destruction.

    Well that is the danger, look at the Congress Party in India as an example of where that can lead to in the long term. Modi has absolutely destroyed Congress and nailed them as the "party of Muslims" for the foreseeable future. I have no doubt that the Tories wouldn't hesitate at doing the same.

    However, and this is a big one, in the long term how is it going to look when there are 10-11m Muslims in Britain and Labour pick up 80-90% of their votes?
  • Plato_Says
    Plato_Says Posts: 11,822
    richardDodd said:

    The Shah statement to the house amounted to nothing more than a plea to keep her job..

    It was dismal, let's move on stuff. I hope Guido has plenty more dirt.
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Stark_Dawning said:

    The Naz Shah thing can only be good for Remain. The very word 'anti-Semitism' summons up one thing: a bloke with a silly moustache stomping around Europe raising hell. Like it or loathe it, the plodding EU with its mundane rules, its trivial preoccupations and its political correctness is in absolute contrast to the horrors that preceded its existence. Shah has given us a glimpse of humanity's dark past. Reminded of that, people will opt to stick with what's familiar and boring.

    How odd, Naz Shah is FOR Remain, she is getting unanimously caned and that is good for Remain.

    Superb spin, albeit total bollox.
  • Alistair
    Alistair Posts: 23,670
    Could be institute some form of penalty system for people who get Alistair/Alastair wrong?

    I get very confused when skimming comments.
  • williamglenn
    williamglenn Posts: 56,290
    There are still some committed Trump deniers out there. This piece comically likens Trump to a middle-distance runner who has now hit the wall and will stagger to the finish as his rivals sprint past him.

    http://theresurgent.com/why-todays-romp-by-trump-doesnt-matter/
  • Floater
    Floater Posts: 14,207
    Scott_P said:

    @tamcohen: No10 source says message unchanged: Corbyn must act and suspend Naz Shah. 'If he doesn't, people will take a verdict on his leadership'

    They suspended her Councillor aide.

    Why a different approach?
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    But it repels white voters. That's the point. Labour is in danger of becoming the "Muslim" party, which is a fast track to total self-destruction.

    Well that is the danger, look at the Congress Party in India as an example of where that can lead to in the long term. Modi has absolutely destroyed Congress and nailed them as the "party of Muslims" for the foreseeable future. I have no doubt that the Tories wouldn't hesitate at doing the same.

    However, and this is a big one, in the long term how is it going to look when there are 10-11m Muslims in Britain and Labour pick up 80-90% of their votes?
    When people say they are worried about immigration, I think it is this they are really referring to, in their heart of hearts.
  • MaxPB
    MaxPB Posts: 40,327
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it isn't immigration specifically, but the effect of immigration on public service and pay which is going to be a big factor. As TSE said, the NHS is a massive vote mover.

    I've written a piece for Sunday about why using the NHS might cause Leave some problems.

    Is all about nuance. Anyone who considers immigration such an important issue is already voting Leave.

    One of the reasons the Tories didn't talk much about immigration during the election was that it put off floating voters.
    Again, I don't disagree which is why there can't just be a single platform for Leave, but it is all about turnout and getting lazy Labour WWC voters to turn out means getting the immigration message out there. I don't much like the idea of campaigning on an immigration platform, but there is no doubt that it will motivate people to turn out.

    I've been working on a post-Brexit strategy for a piece of political analysis at work btw, I wish I could forward it to Vote Leave!
    If you want PB to consider it for publication, send it to me.

    I should be meeting someone from Vote Leave in a couple of weeks too.
    Unfortunately I can't because it is not my property.
  • williamglenn
    williamglenn Posts: 56,290
    Alistair said:

    Could be institute some form of penalty system for people who get Alistair/Alastair wrong?

    I get very confused when skimming comments.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-gYOrU8bA
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think it isn't immigration specifically, but the effect of immigration on public service and pay which is going to be a big factor. As TSE said, the NHS is a massive vote mover.

    I've written a piece for Sunday about why using the NHS might cause Leave some problems.

    Is all about nuance. Anyone who considers immigration such an important issue is already voting Leave.

    One of the reasons the Tories didn't talk much about immigration during the election was that it put off floating voters.
    Again, I don't disagree which is why there can't just be a single platform for Leave, but it is all about turnout and getting lazy Labour WWC voters to turn out means getting the immigration message out there. I don't much like the idea of campaigning on an immigration platform, but there is no doubt that it will motivate people to turn out.

    I've been working on a post-Brexit strategy for a piece of political analysis at work btw, I wish I could forward it to Vote Leave!
    If you want PB to consider it for publication, send it to me.

    I should be meeting someone from Vote Leave in a couple of weeks too.
    Unfortunately I can't because it is not my property.
    Understood.
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    blackburn63 said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    The Naz Shah thing can only be good for Remain. The very word 'anti-Semitism' summons up one thing: a bloke with a silly moustache stomping around Europe raising hell. Like it or loathe it, the plodding EU with its mundane rules, its trivial preoccupations and its political correctness is in absolute contrast to the horrors that preceded its existence. Shah has given us a glimpse of humanity's dark past. Reminded of that, people will opt to stick with what's familiar and boring.

    How odd, Naz Shah is FOR Remain, she is getting unanimously caned and that is good for Remain.

    Superb spin, albeit total bollox.
    Angela Merkel is letting in millions who might very well think our Naz is a bit of a wet liberal.

    And this is good for remain.....Right.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    williamglenn said:

    There are still some committed Trump deniers out there. This piece comically likens Trump to a middle-distance runner who has now hit the wall and will stagger to the finish as his rivals sprint past him.

    http://theresurgent.com/why-todays-romp-by-trump-doesnt-matter/

    I've had a 250 top up on Trump GOP nominee - 1.29 is a huge price I think.
  • MP_SE
    MP_SE Posts: 3,642
    I am hoping someone has reported Shah to the police for her truly revolting posts on social media.
  • MTimT
    MTimT Posts: 7,034
    JonnyJimmy said:

    Maybe worse than her racism, Naz Shah doesn't appear to know the difference between your and you're -

    Naz Shah MP ‏@NazShahBfd Apr 15
    I don't think your being sensitive, your just calling a spade a spade @ayeshahazarika, good piece, keep it up.
    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/04/can-we-afford-be-colourblind-left-wing-politics …

    LOL But the link is to a very good article. The growing tribalism in politics means that both sides are listening to ever narrower segments of the electorate, and that is a problem for us all.
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    You might not like the diagnosis and suggested treatment but if anyone bothered to read it instead of wanting to be the first to dismiss it as crap they'd realize he's got it just about dead right.

    'Leave' need to start concentrating on their strengths which is without a doubt immigration and they need to make it credible. I would add that they need to remove Farage from the airways because though his specialist subject his attitude makes many feel uncomfotable.
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    taffys said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    The Naz Shah thing can only be good for Remain. The very word 'anti-Semitism' summons up one thing: a bloke with a silly moustache stomping around Europe raising hell. Like it or loathe it, the plodding EU with its mundane rules, its trivial preoccupations and its political correctness is in absolute contrast to the horrors that preceded its existence. Shah has given us a glimpse of humanity's dark past. Reminded of that, people will opt to stick with what's familiar and boring.

    How odd, Naz Shah is FOR Remain, she is getting unanimously caned and that is good for Remain.

    Superb spin, albeit total bollox.
    Angela Merkel is letting in millions who might very well think our Naz is a bit of a wet liberal.

    And this is good for remain.....Right.
    Well quite, perhaps Remain could appoint the fragrant Naz as their official spokesperson.
  • TheWhiteRabbit
    TheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    Pulpstar said:

    williamglenn said:

    There are still some committed Trump deniers out there. This piece comically likens Trump to a middle-distance runner who has now hit the wall and will stagger to the finish as his rivals sprint past him.

    http://theresurgent.com/why-todays-romp-by-trump-doesnt-matter/

    I've had a 250 top up on Trump GOP nominee - 1.29 is a huge price I think.
    Take 1.5 at PP on Trump to win on first ballot if you can.

    I have tipped in my proposed thread header to Mike but I don't know if he wants to run it / whether it will still be offered.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    I'm not sure I agree with this. Anyone who rates immigration as more important than anything else is already voting Leave.

    It's those that are worried about immigration but even more worried about the economy that Leave need to win over.

    For that they need to put a compelling economic case forward for Leave, and get Remain talking on their turf and not the other way round. Ergo campaign efforts should be focussed on offering positive options if we Leave on laws and immigration *and* the economic opportunities.

    That might neutralise some of Remain's advantages and give them a chance.
  • SimonStClare
    SimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    MP_SE said:

    I am hoping someone has reported Shah to the police for her truly revolting posts on social media.

    I wonder if anyone has bothered to asked Naz Shah, if she supports Israel's right to exist.
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Why would the issue of public services favour Leave, given the dependence of many of our public services on immigrant staff?
    People take the view that immigration is placing pressure on public services. Look how big Leave's lead is on whether the NHS would benefit from Brexit.
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Roger said:

    You might not like the diagnosis and suggested treatment but if anyone bothered to read it instead of wanting to be the first to dismiss it as crap they'd realize he's got it just about dead right.

    'Leave' need to start concentrating on their strengths which is without a doubt immigration and they need to make it credible. I would add that they need to remove Farage from the airways because though his specialist subject his attitude makes many feel uncomfotable.

    Bloody good of you for breaking off from lunch with your Remaining stockbroker to offer Leave advice.

    Thanks.
  • MTimT
    MTimT Posts: 7,034
    Alistair said:

    Could be institute some form of penalty system for people who get Alistair/Alastair wrong?

    I get very confused when skimming comments.

    LOL. As someone who, as TimT, is constantly confused with TimB, I should perhaps be more sensitive to the Alistair/Alastair point, but I did add the familial name too, so there should have been no confusion. Unless Alistair is also a Meeks.
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Favour does not equate with being a slam dunk which is what Alastair is suggesting in his thread header.
  • tlg86
    tlg86 Posts: 26,950
    Stark_Dawning said:

    The Naz Shah thing can only be good for Remain. The very word 'anti-Semitism' summons up one thing: a bloke with a silly moustache stomping around Europe raising hell. Like it or loathe it, the plodding EU with its mundane rules, its trivial preoccupations and its political correctness is in absolute contrast to the horrors that preceded its existence. Shah has given us a glimpse of humanity's dark past. Reminded of that, people will opt to stick with what's familiar and boring.

    Correlation <> causation.
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm not sure I agree with this. Anyone who rates immigration as more important than anything else is already voting Leave.

    It's those that are worried about immigration but even more worried about the economy that Leave need to win over.

    For that they need to put a compelling economic case forward for Leave, and get Remain talking on their turf and not the other way round. Ergo campaign efforts should be focussed on offering positive options if we Leave on laws and immigration *and* the economic opportunities.

    That might neutralise some of Remain's advantages and give them a chance.

    Oh come on surely you can see through this, if somebody says they're voting Leave because of immigration Meeks calls them a xenophobic racist.

    Its all part of him sticking to the grid.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    blackburn63 said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm not sure I agree with this. Anyone who rates immigration as more important than anything else is already voting Leave.

    It's those that are worried about immigration but even more worried about the economy that Leave need to win over.

    For that they need to put a compelling economic case forward for Leave, and get Remain talking on their turf and not the other way round. Ergo campaign efforts should be focussed on offering positive options if we Leave on laws and immigration *and* the economic opportunities.

    That might neutralise some of Remain's advantages and give them a chance.

    Oh come on surely you can see through this, if somebody says they're voting Leave because of immigration Meeks calls them a xenophobic racist.

    Its all part of him sticking to the grid.
    What grid?
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm not sure I agree with this. Anyone who rates immigration as more important than anything else is already voting Leave.

    It's those that are worried about immigration but even more worried about the economy that Leave need to win over.

    For that they need to put a compelling economic case forward for Leave, and get Remain talking on their turf and not the other way round. Ergo campaign efforts should be focussed on offering positive options if we Leave on laws and immigration *and* the economic opportunities.

    That might neutralise some of Remain's advantages and give them a chance.

    Oh come on surely you can see through this, if somebody says they're voting Leave because of immigration Meeks calls them a xenophobic racist.

    Its all part of him sticking to the grid.
    What grid?
    The one that Remainers refer to when discussing their campaign.

    Part 1 was pretending to be open minded/undecided.
  • david_herdson
    david_herdson Posts: 18,357
    MP_SE said:

    I am hoping someone has reported Shah to the police for her truly revolting posts on social media.

    What does it have to do with the police? She has the right of free speech - all the more so as an MP.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    blackburn63 said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm not sure I agree with this. Anyone who rates immigration as more important than anything else is already voting Leave.

    It's those that are worried about immigration but even more worried about the economy that Leave need to win over.

    For that they need to put a compelling economic case forward for Leave, and get Remain talking on their turf and not the other way round. Ergo campaign efforts should be focussed on offering positive options if we Leave on laws and immigration *and* the economic opportunities.

    That might neutralise some of Remain's advantages and give them a chance.

    Oh come on surely you can see through this, if somebody says they're voting Leave because of immigration Meeks calls them a xenophobic racist.

    Its all part of him sticking to the grid.
    I think Leave will get 35-40% as a bedrock without doing anything else.

    To get to 50.01% they need to win over the 10-15% of voters who worry about immigration but about their pockets even more.

    Dan Hannan is very good at this.
  • PClipp
    PClipp Posts: 2,138
    Sean_F said:

    I wouldn't dispute that Remain has run the better campaign. The reason why things are so close is because people don't like Remain's message.

    Quite possibly, Mr Fear. The problem that I have is that both campaigns are headed by Tories: Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn etc versus Gove, Johnson, IDS, Farage etc. So they all couch their arguments to win over the Tory faithful.

    All their arguments appall me. I am not moved by the interests of the disgustingly rich on the one hand, nor do I wish to excercise control over other human beings, which amounts to the same thing, of course.

    So it is that, while I dislike Remain`s message (as you say), I also dislike Leave`s message.

    If this referendum is to have any sense at all, which is most unlikely, given its real purpose, the Tories must stop talking to just other Tories.
  • FeersumEnjineeya
    FeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,792
    Sean_F said:

    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Why would the issue of public services favour Leave, given the dependence of many of our public services on immigrant staff?
    People take the view that immigration is placing pressure on public services. Look how big Leave's lead is on whether the NHS would benefit from Brexit.
    Surely that could be easily countered by a Remain campaign pointing out that, for example, almost a third of our doctors are foreign-born.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    williamglenn said:

    There are still some committed Trump deniers out there. This piece comically likens Trump to a middle-distance runner who has now hit the wall and will stagger to the finish as his rivals sprint past him.

    http://theresurgent.com/why-todays-romp-by-trump-doesnt-matter/

    I've had a 250 top up on Trump GOP nominee - 1.29 is a huge price I think.
    Take 1.5 at PP on Trump to win on first ballot if you can.

    I have tipped in my proposed thread header to Mike but I don't know if he wants to run it / whether it will still be offered.
    US Politics Will there be a 1st round result?
    27-07-2016 22:00
    Republican Convention Special
    Yes @ 1/2
    Your Bets

    Win
    Single: Yes @ 1/2
    1 line at £77.86 per line

    That one ?
  • tlg86
    tlg86 Posts: 26,950
    edited April 2016
    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Why would the issue of public services favour Leave, given the dependence of many of our public services on immigrant staff?
    People take the view that immigration is placing pressure on public services. Look how big Leave's lead is on whether the NHS would benefit from Brexit.
    Surely that could be easily countered by a Remain campaign pointing out that, for example, almost a third of our doctors are foreign-born.
    But are they EU born? And for that matter, who is saying that all immigration from the EU would stop? This is about the right for this country to decide who comes here.
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,728
    What It's Really Like to Fight for the Islamic State

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM3ElTvF52I
  • john_zims
    john_zims Posts: 3,399
    @PClippssage.

    'If this referendum is to have any sense at all, which is most unlikely, given its real purpose, the Tories must stop talking to just other Tories.'


    Nick Clegg was live at the London Palladium last night,did you miss it it?

  • MTimT
    MTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited April 2016
    david_herdson said:

    MP_SE said:

    I am hoping someone has reported Shah to the police for her truly revolting posts on social media.

    What does it have to do with the police? She has the right of free speech - all the more so as an MP.
    As a strong advocate of true free speech, not the heavily proscribed version available in the UK, I would agree except that outside of the privileges of the HoC, I don't see why MPs should have greater rights to free speech than citizens. If anything, it should be the other way around so that the citizenry can hold their elected representatives accountable.

    However, if the police have investigated less as hate speech in others, then the same interpretation of the law must be applied in this case. Otherwise, it is one law for us, and another for Labour MPs.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • Plato_Says
    Plato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm not sure I agree with this. Anyone who rates immigration as more important than anything else is already voting Leave.

    It's those that are worried about immigration but even more worried about the economy that Leave need to win over.

    For that they need to put a compelling economic case forward for Leave, and get Remain talking on their turf and not the other way round. Ergo campaign efforts should be focussed on offering positive options if we Leave on laws and immigration *and* the economic opportunities.

    That might neutralise some of Remain's advantages and give them a chance.

    The economic case paper penned by Ryan Bourne et al and published tomorrow looks like a good read.
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Casino_Royale said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm not sure I agree with this. Anyone who rates immigration as more important than anything else is already voting Leave.

    It's those that are worried about immigration but even more worried about the economy that Leave need to win over.

    For that they need to put a compelling economic case forward for Leave, and get Remain talking on their turf and not the other way round. Ergo campaign efforts should be focussed on offering positive options if we Leave on laws and immigration *and* the economic opportunities.

    That might neutralise some of Remain's advantages and give them a chance.

    Oh come on surely you can see through this, if somebody says they're voting Leave because of immigration Meeks calls them a xenophobic racist.

    Its all part of him sticking to the grid.
    I think Leave will get 35-40% as a bedrock without doing anything else.

    To get to 50.01% they need to win over the 10-15% of voters who worry about immigration but about their pockets even more.

    Dan Hannan is very good at this.
    I've been fortunate enough to discuss this with Dan Hannan. He makes the case very persuasively, far better than anybody else.

    There are millions who, rightly or wrongly, connect the EU with immigration, they'll vote Leave without hesitation. Meeks is 100% Remain, he is tempting people into making mistakes, saying things they really shouldn't so he can jump up and down and cry racist.
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Why would the issue of public services favour Leave, given the dependence of many of our public services on immigrant staff?
    People take the view that immigration is placing pressure on public services. Look how big Leave's lead is on whether the NHS would benefit from Brexit.
    Surely that could be easily countered by a Remain campaign pointing out that, for example, almost a third of our doctors are foreign-born.
    Well, it's not a message that seems to be getting through.
  • PClipp
    PClipp Posts: 2,138
    Sean_F said:

    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Why would the issue of public services favour Leave, given the dependence of many of our public services on immigrant staff?
    People take the view that immigration is placing pressure on public services. Look how big Leave's lead is on whether the NHS would benefit from Brexit.
    Surely that could be easily countered by a Remain campaign pointing out that, for example, almost a third of our doctors are foreign-born.
    Well, it's not a message that seems to be getting through.
    Is that good news anyway?
  • TheWhiteRabbit
    TheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    Pulpstar said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    williamglenn said:

    There are still some committed Trump deniers out there. This piece comically likens Trump to a middle-distance runner who has now hit the wall and will stagger to the finish as his rivals sprint past him.

    http://theresurgent.com/why-todays-romp-by-trump-doesnt-matter/

    I've had a 250 top up on Trump GOP nominee - 1.29 is a huge price I think.
    Take 1.5 at PP on Trump to win on first ballot if you can.

    I have tipped in my proposed thread header to Mike but I don't know if he wants to run it / whether it will still be offered.
    US Politics Will there be a 1st round result?
    27-07-2016 22:00
    Republican Convention Special
    Yes @ 1/2
    Your Bets

    Win
    Single: Yes @ 1/2
    1 line at £77.86 per line

    That one ?
    Yes. When did you do that?
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    williamglenn said:

    There are still some committed Trump deniers out there. This piece comically likens Trump to a middle-distance runner who has now hit the wall and will stagger to the finish as his rivals sprint past him.

    http://theresurgent.com/why-todays-romp-by-trump-doesnt-matter/

    I've had a 250 top up on Trump GOP nominee - 1.29 is a huge price I think.
    Take 1.5 at PP on Trump to win on first ballot if you can.

    I have tipped in my proposed thread header to Mike but I don't know if he wants to run it / whether it will still be offered.
    US Politics Will there be a 1st round result?
    27-07-2016 22:00
    Republican Convention Special
    Yes @ 1/2
    Your Bets

    Win
    Single: Yes @ 1/2
    1 line at £77.86 per line

    That one ?
    Yes. When did you do that?
    Just now :)
  • PClipp
    PClipp Posts: 2,138
    john_zims said:

    @PClippssage.

    'If this referendum is to have any sense at all, which is most unlikely, given its real purpose, the Tories must stop talking to just other Tories.'


    Nick Clegg was live at the London Palladium last night,did you miss it it?

    Yes, unfortunately. Only the elite were able to be there.
  • Plato_Says
    Plato_Says Posts: 11,822
    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Why would the issue of public services favour Leave, given the dependence of many of our public services on immigrant staff?
    People take the view that immigration is placing pressure on public services. Look how big Leave's lead is on whether the NHS would benefit from Brexit.
    Surely that could be easily countered by a Remain campaign pointing out that, for example, almost a third of our doctors are foreign-born.
    What a bizarre line of argument. Brexit doesn't = zero immigration. It's deciding who we let in.
  • MTimT
    MTimT Posts: 7,034
    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Why would the issue of public services favour Leave, given the dependence of many of our public services on immigrant staff?
    People take the view that immigration is placing pressure on public services. Look how big Leave's lead is on whether the NHS would benefit from Brexit.
    Surely that could be easily countered by a Remain campaign pointing out that, for example, almost a third of our doctors are foreign-born.
    That is not evident. Leaving would allow the UK to design its immigration policy to its national needs, including the need to allow work visas to those needed to staff vital functions for which we have a national skills shortage, such as the NHS.

    Thus Leave could argue that Brexit would both reduce the demand pressures on the NHS and facilitate its adequate and qualified staffing.
  • Luckyguy1983
    Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,093
    There's been a lot from Remainers recently recommending Leave play the immigration card.

    One can only assume they're slavering at the chance to jump on Leave as a bunch of unsavoury racists desperately playing the 'johnny foreigner out' card.

    I suspect they think this will 'fire up' Leave's left wing base, who seem to have stayed very muted throughout the campaign, whilst not really delivering any more voters to Leave, because immigration is factored in.

  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    PClipp said:

    Sean_F said:

    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Why would the issue of public services favour Leave, given the dependence of many of our public services on immigrant staff?
    People take the view that immigration is placing pressure on public services. Look how big Leave's lead is on whether the NHS would benefit from Brexit.
    Surely that could be easily countered by a Remain campaign pointing out that, for example, almost a third of our doctors are foreign-born.
    Well, it's not a message that seems to be getting through.
    Is that good news anyway?
    When you think about, probably not.
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    PClipp said:

    Sean_F said:

    I wouldn't dispute that Remain has run the better campaign. The reason why things are so close is because people don't like Remain's message.

    Quite possibly, Mr Fear. The problem that I have is that both campaigns are headed by Tories: Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn etc versus Gove, Johnson, IDS, Farage etc. So they all couch their arguments to win over the Tory faithful.

    All their arguments appall me. I am not moved by the interests of the disgustingly rich on the one hand, nor do I wish to excercise control over other human beings, which amounts to the same thing, of course.

    So it is that, while I dislike Remain`s message (as you say), I also dislike Leave`s message.

    If this referendum is to have any sense at all, which is most unlikely, given its real purpose, the Tories must stop talking to just other Tories.
    It's true that both sides need high-profile left-wing voices.
  • Plato_Says
    Plato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Cruz major announcement at 4pm according to Telegraph
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    Plato_Says said:

    Cruz major announcement at 4pm according to Telegraph

    Oh my !
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Plato_Says said:

    Cruz major announcement at 4pm according to Telegraph

    Suspending his campaign?
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Sean_F said:

    PClipp said:

    Sean_F said:

    I wouldn't dispute that Remain has run the better campaign. The reason why things are so close is because people don't like Remain's message.

    Quite possibly, Mr Fear. The problem that I have is that both campaigns are headed by Tories: Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn etc versus Gove, Johnson, IDS, Farage etc. So they all couch their arguments to win over the Tory faithful.

    All their arguments appall me. I am not moved by the interests of the disgustingly rich on the one hand, nor do I wish to excercise control over other human beings, which amounts to the same thing, of course.

    So it is that, while I dislike Remain`s message (as you say), I also dislike Leave`s message.

    If this referendum is to have any sense at all, which is most unlikely, given its real purpose, the Tories must stop talking to just other Tories.
    It's true that both sides need high-profile left-wing voices.
    Vote Leave should ask the RMT to speak up more - they are in favour of Leave.
  • Wanderer
    Wanderer Posts: 3,838
    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm not sure I agree with this. Anyone who rates immigration as more important than anything else is already voting Leave.

    It's those that are worried about immigration but even more worried about the economy that Leave need to win over.

    For that they need to put a compelling economic case forward for Leave, and get Remain talking on their turf and not the other way round. Ergo campaign efforts should be focussed on offering positive options if we Leave on laws and immigration *and* the economic opportunities.

    That might neutralise some of Remain's advantages and give them a chance.

    I read Alastair's article as suggesting you can tie the economy into immigration if you press the point that immigration costs jobs. As he says, the whys and wherefores won't matter much. The argument will seem plausible and will be hard for Remain to counter. If you are lucky Remain will get sucked into lengthy debate on the subject which will just confirm the linkage in the minds of voters.

    I think it has some hope of getting you to the 50.000001% you need.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Pulpstar, you are George Takei, and I claim a free ride in the starship Enterprise.
  • Plato_Says
    Plato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Sean_F said:

    Plato_Says said:

    Cruz major announcement at 4pm according to Telegraph

    Suspending his campaign?
    He's been having an affair with Lily Munster?
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2016
    Casino_Royale said:

    I think Leave will get 35-40% as a bedrock without doing anything else.

    To get to 50.01% they need to win over the 10-15% of voters who worry about immigration but about their pockets even more.

    Dan Hannan is very good at this.

    It was surprising in the aftermath of SIndy to see just how lowly regarded Jobs were as a decisive issue.

    The same game plan - currency, pensions etc - simply will not play here.

    In fact, key issues for the status quo in Scotland (welfare security, defence, ) are all strong arguments for Leave.

  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    @lindayueh: Cruz will be making a "major announcement"& proclaimed he will keep on fighting despite Donald Trump's decisive wins https://t.co/mAjDpIwbuM
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    SeanT said:

    lol

    "The Remain side has started the fight at a furious pace, leaving Leave gasping for air after two blows to its solar plexus"

    That's why LEAVE is 20 points behind then, and all the polls show the gap widening. Oh... wait....

    What is the effing point in writing this garbage when everyone on pb knows it is clearly untrue?

    I genuinely don't understand. Alistair Meeks is an intelligent person. Does he think we don't read polls?

    *baffled*

    O/T I've just finished a book which I think would appeal to you, called The Loney, by Andrew Michael Hurley. Sort of a cross between Thomas Hardy and HP Lovecraft.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: "We do not tolerate any forms of racism". "I've just said something racist". "Will you apologise?". "Yes". "No problem. On you go".

    @DPJHodges: So now we know Labour doesn't have a zero tolerance approach to racism, what is it. 20% tolerance? 30%? 40% pushing it a bit?
  • Plato_Says
    Plato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Harry Cole
    Naz Shah there, tweeting congratulations to the new NUS president..... https://t.co/nJGC6ozTqO
  • GarethoftheVale2
    GarethoftheVale2 Posts: 2,350
    PClipp - you have to wonder what
    Sean_F said:

    PClipp said:

    Sean_F said:

    I wouldn't dispute that Remain has run the better campaign. The reason why things are so close is because people don't like Remain's message.

    Quite possibly, Mr Fear. The problem that I have is that both campaigns are headed by Tories: Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn etc versus Gove, Johnson, IDS, Farage etc. So they all couch their arguments to win over the Tory faithful.

    All their arguments appall me. I am not moved by the interests of the disgustingly rich on the one hand, nor do I wish to excercise control over other human beings, which amounts to the same thing, of course.

    So it is that, while I dislike Remain`s message (as you say), I also dislike Leave`s message.

    If this referendum is to have any sense at all, which is most unlikely, given its real purpose, the Tories must stop talking to just other Tories.
    It's true that both sides need high-profile left-wing voices.
    You have to wonder what has happened to Alan Johnson. Isn't he supposed to be leading the Labour campaign?

    You also have to wonder what has happened to Hilary Benn. Shadow Foreign Secretary so his portfolio, did his impressive Syria speech but now hasn't been seen for months.

    At least for the leave side Field and Stuart have been out and about in the media.

  • Luckyguy1983
    Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,093
    edited April 2016
    The two sides appear to be just about neck and neck in the polls. This could well be illusory, and Remain could win with a handsome margin, but we no evidence that that will happen.

    So why all the pages and pages of diagnosis and advice on where it's all gone wrong for Leave? If you told me before this campaign started that Leave would be in the position they are now, I wouldn't have believed you.

    If anything, is it not more interesting to consider why Remain aren't at least 10 points clear, and why they seem to be underperforming expectations so markedly? What can Remain do to turn things around? That might be an interesting thread.
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    I covered the byline and tried to guess the author.. it took a couple of seconds
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2016
    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    FeersumEnjineeya said:

    Sean_F said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    On the thread title....

    No Alistair it really isn't. Every aspect of EU membership is still up for debate and challenge and the idea that Leave gave already lost on any of these points is just fanciful wishful thinking.

    Among the public, Immigration/sovereignty/public services favour Leave, while economics and British influence favour Remain.
    Why would the issue of public services favour Leave, given the dependence of many of our public services on immigrant staff?
    People take the view that immigration is placing pressure on public services. Look how big Leave's lead is on whether the NHS would benefit from Brexit.
    Surely that could be easily countered by a Remain campaign pointing out that, for example, almost a third of our doctors are foreign-born.
    Leave is based on the idea of controlled flows and skills profiling, not a complete ban as Remain seem to comically infer.

    It is basically applying the same rules that we apply to every one from outside the EU.


  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    Scott_P said:

    @lindayueh: Cruz will be making a "major announcement"& proclaimed he will keep on fighting despite Donald Trump's decisive wins https://t.co/mAjDpIwbuM

    Fiorina as VP is my guess right now.
  • SandyRentool
    SandyRentool Posts: 23,156
    Plato_Says said:

    Cruz major announcement at 4pm according to Telegraph

    How many women?
This discussion has been closed.

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