politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why those opposed to the Tories should hope that June 23rd
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why those opposed to the Tories should hope that June 23rd fails to resolve the blue team’s #EURef schism
A party at war is pretty sight if you are not a supporter. The way this first Monday of the official referendum campaign has gone isn’t doing the Tories any favours and it is going to go on and on.
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True0
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Looking at the thread header illustration, Leave should have some fun reprinting the recent photograph of Cameron, Kinnock and Ashdown chortling on the phones.
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The dream scenario for Tory opponents, is a substantial Remain win, and the Tories force Cameron out.
That will prolong the fun.0 -
No aggressive abuse from Remain backers of course. Can we at least pretend to be balanced ?
No, it wont resolve it, any more than it settled it in Scotland. All he has done is brought the divisions out into the open. He was one of the first to start the abuse with "Fruitcakes, Loonies and Closet Racists", who goes around comes around - shame.0 -
O/T:
Defence of man who beheaded his wife: he only meant to "slap her around a bit".
http://news.sky.com/story/1680636/husband-jailed-for-life-for-beheading-wife0 -
How many people nowadays would recognise Ashdown - 10%? Kinnock, maybe 30%? Ozymandias and all that.watford30 said:Looking at the thread header illustration, Leave should have some fun reprinting the recent photograph of Cameron, Kinnock and Ashdown chortling on the phones.
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It's striking that every leading figure on each side of the debate has negative personal ratings, in some cases, very negative.0
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The people that vote.NickPalmer said:
How many people nowadays would recognise Ashdown - 10%? Kinnock, maybe 30%? Ozymandias and all that.watford30 said:Looking at the thread header illustration, Leave should have some fun reprinting the recent photograph of Cameron, Kinnock and Ashdown chortling on the phones.
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From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.0 -
And?AndyJS said:O/T:
Defence of man who beheaded his wife: he only meant to "slap her around a bit".
http://news.sky.com/story/1680636/husband-jailed-for-life-for-beheading-wife0 -
It will never end (unless people in this country have a Damascene conversion in favour of political union).Richard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.0 -
hmmmRichard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.
I admire your optimism. I;m afraid the campaign is starting to acquire an element of rancour to it that didn't need to be there. I suspect Cameron will heal very little and will be glad when he's out of politics.0 -
@BBC_Joe_Lynam: Ian Botham on Brexit: "England is an island and we should be proud"
That'll go down well in Scotland, Wales and NI
#bbcdp
@Cat_Headley: It would be wrong to say that this sums up all #Brexitters,but it certainly sums up a certain type of Brexitter... https://t.co/Djd7padrti0 -
No surprise. It is a warning shot at Osborne using his awful ratings.
Last time the people running no2AV went after Clegg.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=election+leaflets+AV+campaign&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjoptvfrpjMAhWC7iYKHeLNARAQsAQITw&biw=1696&bih=799&dpr=1.13#imgrc=dmWxy0XhuDs7dM:0 -
who the F is Cat Headley ? Your mum ?Scott_P said:@BBC_Joe_Lynam: Ian Botham on Brexit: "England is an island and we should be proud"
That'll go down well in Scotland, Wales and NI
#bbcdp
@Cat_Headley: It would be wrong to say that this sums up all #Brexitters,but it certainly sums up a certain type of Brexitter... https://t.co/Djd7padrti0 -
It might, however, become a background issue, like abortion or gay marriage or capital punishment - issues where it is accepted that there are some people in the party who hold strong views which are at odds with the party leadership, but which are not divisive because everyone accepts that the matter is effectively settled.Sean_F said:
It will never end (unless people in this country have a Damascene conversion in favour of political union).Richard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.0 -
"Anyone who comes out with anything that’s vaguely supportive of REMAIN has to reckon on coming under a pile of aggressive abuse from LEAVE backers. Those wanting out are more than ready to play the ball as well as the man. "
That's just as true the other way round. For example when Beefy came out for Brexit the other day he had to endure slurry from Remainers about his adulterous past and insinuations that he's not very bright. Strangely there was no mention of his Ashes heroics or indeed his numerous walks for charity etc. Both sides are as bad as each other on that score.0 -
FPT
The £4300 figure (6.2% reduction on GDP) assumes "negotiated bilateral agreement[s]". But under EEA the figure becomes £2600 per household (3.8% reduction in GDP). Table A16, p 186Richard_Nabavi said:
That sounds correct. I wouldn't expect much if any damage or benefit on services from the EEA option compared with the EU.Layne said:The Treasury report claims the EEA has zero beneficial impact on services!
But very particular assumptions lie behind these "Final modelling results". I would question:
(1) the idea that leaving is like a negative exogenous shock to the level of technology "which is maintained as a permanent level shift until the end of the simulation. This shock temporarily reduces the growth rate of output of the UK economy." The shock could well positive – shaking off the numerous impediments, regulations, and misdirections we have from the EU, not to mention the membership tax.
(2) the idea that leaving necessarily implies "reduced openness to trade".
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That's a slightly different point. To reunite after a Remain result, the Conservative Party may well need a different leader. But it is going to get one.Alanbrooke said:Hmmm
I admire your optimism. I;m afraid the campaign is starting to acquire an element of rancour to it that didn't need to be there. I suspect Cameron will heal very little and will be glad when he's out of politics.0 -
Leftie mate of Corbyn's. A respected source for any hard left person.Alanbrooke said:
who the F is Cat Headley ? Your mum ?Scott_P said:@BBC_Joe_Lynam: Ian Botham on Brexit: "England is an island and we should be proud"
That'll go down well in Scotland, Wales and NI
#bbcdp
@Cat_Headley: It would be wrong to say that this sums up all #Brexitters,but it certainly sums up a certain type of Brexitter... https://t.co/Djd7padrti
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Exactly.Sean_F said:
It will never end (unless people in this country have a Damascene conversion in favour of political union).Richard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.0 -
The GRASSROOTS UKIP base has no issues about slagging off the REMAIN Conservatives.0
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But they are there to represent the voters, so it only works if the voters consider it settled, or atleast if enough of them do that Cameron's successor isn't in danger of losing a third of his vote to the kippers or their successors.Richard_Nabavi said:
It might, however, become a background issue, like abortion or gay marriage or capital punishment - issues where it is accepted that there are some people in the party who hold strong views which are at odds with the party leadership, but which are not divisive because everyone accepts that the matter is effectively settled.Sean_F said:
It will never end (unless people in this country have a Damascene conversion in favour of political union).Richard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.
It also only works if the voluntary party accept it, which is the least likely of the lot, otherwise he gets the double whammy of losing lots of activists and still getting lots of eurosceptic MPs selected by his constituency parties.
So long as 72% of the country want less immigration, and that will probably get worse as the migrant number pick up after the referendum, the question hasn't gone away. If there is any islamic terror in London, it will be back in spades.0 -
A thought on Vote LEAVE.
Its Chief Executive Matthew Elliott was turned down for a SPAD job in Govt when Cameron and Osborne gave in to the Lib Dems who opposed his appointment. The LDs were very upset with Elliott over the fact that his No2AV referendum campaign slaughtered their Yes campaign.0 -
That seems unlikely, because there will always be flashpoints, in the event of a Remain vote. The only way that the EU will cease to be a live political issue is if there's a settled view in favour of complete integration.Richard_Nabavi said:
It might, however, become a background issue, like abortion or gay marriage or capital punishment - issues where it is accepted that there are some people in the party who hold strong views which are at odds with the party leadership, but which are not divisive because everyone accepts that the matter is effectively settled.Sean_F said:
It will never end (unless people in this country have a Damascene conversion in favour of political union).Richard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.0 -
Not ideal for a party that needs 95%+ of its MPs support to pass anything in the House of Commons. The unity reshuffle is going to have to be major I feel.0
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And promply too, I should think. Cameron has morphed into a hopelessly divisive figure in a very short space of time. Never again glad confident morn, I'm afraid.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly different point. To reunite after a Remain result, the Conservative Party may well need a different leader. But it is going to get one.Alanbrooke said:Hmmm
I admire your optimism. I;m afraid the campaign is starting to acquire an element of rancour to it that didn't need to be there. I suspect Cameron will heal very little and will be glad when he's out of politics.0 -
What flashpoints do you foresee?Sean_F said:That seems unlikely, because there will always be flashpoints, in the event of a Remain vote. The only way that the EU will cease to be a live political issue is if there's a settled view in favour of complete integration.
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I've just done a quick and dirty spreadsheet calculation on the Treasury's assessment.
If we assume Brexit GDP growth at 2.05%, and Bremain growth at 2.5%, then you get to a GDP that's 45% bigger in nominal terms by 2030 for Bremain, and 36% bigger for Brexit ($4.126tn v. $3.862tn) This gives a net difference between the two in annual GDP of -6.4% in 2030.
So assuming we don't strike any new trade deals, change our trade patterns or deregulate to become globally competitive, the Treasury is saying that the price of Brexit, control of our laws, borders and policies is that the economy will only be 36% bigger rather than 45% bigger in 2030.0 -
Well quite, hence my view that the EEA option is politically impossible in the event of a Leave result.Indigo said:So long as 72% of the country want less immigration, and that will probably get worse as the migrant number pick up after the referendum, the question hasn't gone away. If there is any islamic terror in London, it will be back in spades.
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Will we see a leaflet on immigration broken promises and remaining in the EU?
If Mrs May takes a leading role we could see the "100,000" promise butchered along with the new "3million more" which Osborne has signed up to?
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=election+leaflets+AV+campaign&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjoptvfrpjMAhWC7iYKHeLNARAQsAQITw&biw=1696&bih=799&dpr=1.13#imgrc=Xuz10dM4_tSH0M:0 -
And?matt said:
And?AndyJS said:O/T:
Defence of man who beheaded his wife: he only meant to "slap her around a bit".
http://news.sky.com/story/1680636/husband-jailed-for-life-for-beheading-wife0 -
Thanks. With 40% of the trade tied to a stagnating EU, it would be interesting if any institute etc models it based on the run rate of the EU in recent years. Likely to see us well below 20% of trade with EU by 2030. As a guesstimate!Casino_Royale said:I've just done a quick and dirty spreadsheet calculation on the Treasury's assessment.
If we assume Brexit GDP growth at 2.05%, and Bremain growth at 2.5%, then you get to a GDP that's 45% bigger in nominal terms by 2030 for Bremain, and 36% bigger for Brexit ($4.126tn v. $3.862tn) This gives a net difference between the two in annual GDP of -6.4% in 2030.
So assuming we don't strike any new trade deals, change our trade patterns or deregulate to become globally competitive, the Treasury is saying that the price of Brexit, control of our laws, borders and policies is that the economy will only be 36% bigger rather than 45% bigger in 2030.0 -
That tallies with Fraser Nelson's assessment - though he makes it 31% v 37%. As he says, the real slight of hand is in pretending that that equates to £4,300 less in terms of household income.Casino_Royale said:I've just done a quick and dirty spreadsheet calculation on the Treasury's assessment.
If we assume Brexit GDP growth at 2.05%, and Bremain growth at 2.5%, then you get to a GDP that's 45% bigger in nominal terms by 2030 for Bremain, and 36% bigger for Brexit ($4.126tn v. $3.862tn) This gives a net difference between the two in annual GDP of -6.4% in 2030.
So assuming we don't strike any new trade deals, change our trade patterns or deregulate to become globally competitive, the Treasury is saying that the price of Brexit, control of our laws, borders and policies is that the economy will only be 36% bigger rather than 45% bigger in 2030.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/the-deceptions-behind-george-osbornes-brexit-report/0 -
I have said so a number of times. I personally favour EFTA, but I can't see it being a politically tenable position. I can't see Remain being a politically tenable position for more than a few years either. Except if there is 4m+ nett migration in 2020, then the Conservative government is toast and we will be in the EU for the next 5 years under Labour.Richard_Nabavi said:
Well quite, hence my view that the EEA option is politically impossible in the event of a Leave result.Indigo said:So long as 72% of the country want less immigration, and that will probably get worse as the migrant number pick up after the referendum, the question hasn't gone away. If there is any islamic terror in London, it will be back in spades.
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Norman Tebbit — "The Government is doing everything in its power to rig the EU Referendum"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/18/the-government-is-doing-everything-in-its-power-to-rig-the-eu-re/0 -
In my view, the most likely are probably:-Richard_Nabavi said:
What flashpoints do you foresee?Sean_F said:That seems unlikely, because there will always be flashpoints, in the event of a Remain vote. The only way that the EU will cease to be a live political issue is if there's a settled view in favour of complete integration.
1. The EZ voting as a bloc, in ways that are detrimental to non EZ members. I could see the UK being told at that stage that if we want to sit at the top table, we need to be part of the EZ, or else just suck it up.
2. Immigration. It may be that immigration from the rest of the EU to the UK reaches levels that become intolerable; or that countries that are bearing the brunt of immigration from MENA attempt to put pressure on those that haven't, in order to share the burden.
3. Criminal justice. I think that the drive to try and harmonise criminal justice across the EU will be ongoing.
4. The EU budget. In general, we favour reducing it. Plenty of EU countries favour increasing it.
Now, even if we have absolute and binding guarantees and vetoes, it will still be us vs the EU.
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I am amazed that whoever designed the leave.eu poster had no thought it would have on many undecided voters, their families and especially their children. Fierce debate and poster campaigns are all part of the campaign but this particular poster is just plain distasteful0
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Mr. NorthWales, indeed, foul language on something for public consumption is unwise.0
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We'll get eight weeks of the Tories shouting at each other. Then Dave either loses and stands down and the shouting starts again over his successor and the Brexit negotiations, or Remain wins and he stays and the Leavers shout Betrayal at every opportunity. With a wafer thin majority this is not going away until 2020 at the earliest. Meanwhile most people in the country will look on bemused, at best, or increasingly furious at worst.0
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Is this the group that includes Farage - if he has any sense he will bin it and come up with something clever and appealingMorris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, indeed, foul language on something for public consumption is unwise.
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Isabel Hardman on why the shift within Govt
"But warning people about the consequences for national security hasn’t proved to be strong enough a deterrent yet. So move on to the economy they must. The challenge for Osborne and his colleagues today is to stop the economic argument from becoming as bogged down as they feared it would."
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/how-ministers-had-to-change-tack-in-the-eu-referendum-campaign/0 -
So if you take the Treasury figures at face value — don't they are worthless — it is fairer to say do you want to be £22k better off and OUT, or £26k better off and IN. Put like that I suspect you would get a very different response from saying "you'll be £4300 worse off".Tissue_Price said:That tallies with Fraser Nelson's assessment - though he makes it 31% v 37%. As he says, the real slight of hand is in pretending that that equates to £4,300 less in terms of household income.
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If the 'furious' had selected a credible leader not the tit in a beard they would have been able to do something about it.SouthamObserver said:We'll get eight weeks of the Tories shouting at each other. Then Dave either loses and stands down and the shouting starts again over his successor and the Brexit negotiations, or Remain wins and he stays and the Leavers shout Betrayal at every opportunity. With a wafer thin majority this is not going away until 2020 at the earliest. Meanwhile most people in the country will look on bemused, at best, or increasingly furious at worst.
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As a conservative member I am very annoyed with both sides as the Country having a conservative government is far more important to me than remaining in or leaving the EUSouthamObserver said:We'll get eight weeks of the Tories shouting at each other. Then Dave either loses and stands down and the shouting starts again over his successor and the Brexit negotiations, or Remain wins and he stays and the Leavers shout Betrayal at every opportunity. With a wafer thin majority this is not going away until 2020 at the earliest. Meanwhile most people in the country will look on bemused, at best, or increasingly furious at worst.
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I think it demonstrates a level of immaturity that shows the Electoral Commission made exactly the right decision.Big_G_NorthWales said:I am amazed that whoever designed the leave.eu poster had no thought it would have on many undecided voters, their families and especially their children. Fierce debate and poster campaigns are all part of the campaign but this particular poster is just plain distasteful
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Never heard of her tbh. Googling, I see she's a prospective candidate for the Scottish Parliament.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Leftie mate of Corbyn's. A respected source for any hard left person.Alanbrooke said:
who the F is Cat Headley ? Your mum ?Scott_P said:@BBC_Joe_Lynam: Ian Botham on Brexit: "England is an island and we should be proud"
That'll go down well in Scotland, Wales and NI
#bbcdp
@Cat_Headley: It would be wrong to say that this sums up all #Brexitters,but it certainly sums up a certain type of Brexitter... https://t.co/Djd7padrti
That said, her comment seems reasonably nuanced and fair enough.0 -
I'm not surprised the campaign is becoming increasingly personal within the Con ranks. It feels like for many of the prominent personalities it is becoming a matter of personal political survival. While the cabinet in a few years time will probably consist of a mix of leavers and remainers, nothing says it has to be the current leavers and remainers.
I have to say it looks quite good for my MP Theresa who is keeping her head down and could come out of this looking good while everyone else is covered in mud.0 -
George must be pleased with Leave.EU, they've taken at least 20 years off him in their latest poster:
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/7220468858428252160 -
5. The Eurozone taking a grudging Remain on the basis of financial concerns and government browbeating as the signal for full speed ahead "more Europe" would be another. Lots of new integration wheezes that appear to the voters to be giving more power to Brussels, especially if the government appears over-keen to help make it happen. Attempts to centrally dictate the number of migrants going to each country would be the ultimate kiss of death.Sean_F said:Now, even if we have absolute and binding guarantees and vetoes, it will still be us vs the EU.
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FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
» show previous quotes
I sent you a vanilla message a few hours ago on this.
Be nice for all to know if it is utter tosh or which if any bits have any reality , I don't think a vanilla message to one person cuts the mustard.0 -
I agree, but the furious will go beyond actual and potential Labour voters. Europe is not a big issue for most voters. Rows about it can be tolerated if things are relatively OK. They will spark fury if times turn tougher.Indigo said:
If the 'furious' had selected a credible leader not the tit in a beard they would have been able to do something about it.SouthamObserver said:We'll get eight weeks of the Tories shouting at each other. Then Dave either loses and stands down and the shouting starts again over his successor and the Brexit negotiations, or Remain wins and he stays and the Leavers shout Betrayal at every opportunity. With a wafer thin majority this is not going away until 2020 at the earliest. Meanwhile most people in the country will look on bemused, at best, or increasingly furious at worst.
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I haven't had time to go through the model assumptions yet, I suspect they are buried.geoffw said:FPT
The £4300 figure (6.2% reduction on GDP) assumes "negotiated bilateral agreement[s]". But under EEA the figure becomes £2600 per household (3.8% reduction in GDP). Table A16, p 186Richard_Nabavi said:
That sounds correct. I wouldn't expect much if any damage or benefit on services from the EEA option compared with the EU.Layne said:The Treasury report claims the EEA has zero beneficial impact on services!
But very particular assumptions lie behind these "Final modelling results". I would question:
(1) the idea that leaving is like a negative exogenous shock to the level of technology "which is maintained as a permanent level shift until the end of the simulation. This shock temporarily reduces the growth rate of output of the UK economy." The shock could well positive – shaking off the numerous impediments, regulations, and misdirections we have from the EU, not to mention the membership tax.
(2) the idea that leaving necessarily implies "reduced openness to trade".
But whilst it might be credible to say the UK economy would take a short term hit after Brexit whilst a deal was sorted, to suggest growth would be forever lower till the ends of time is pushing it.
Outside the EU our decisions and priorities would be different, and the effective on development of new technology and entrepreneurship could be extremely dynamic.0 -
It will remain the case that we consider a bug of the system ("more Europe") is considered a feature on most of the Continent.Indigo said:
5. The Eurozone taking a grudging Remain on the basis of financial concerns and government browbeating as the signal for full speed ahead "more Europe" would be another. Lots of new integration wheezes that appear to the voters to be giving more power to Brussels, especially if the government appears over-keen to help make it happen. Attempts to centrally dictate the number of migrants going to each country would be the ultimate kiss of death.Sean_F said:Now, even if we have absolute and binding guarantees and vetoes, it will still be us vs the EU.
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Is it me but doesn't this just highlight the Treasury Report and provide more publicity for it.Pulpstar said:George must be pleased with Leave.EU, they've taken at least 20 years off him in their latest poster:
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/7220468858428252160 -
Interesting. So you think the potential reaffirmation of our EU membership will turn out to leave those opposed on the wrong side of history?Richard_Nabavi said:
It might, however, become a background issue, like abortion or gay marriage or capital punishment - issues where it is accepted that there are some people in the party who hold strong views which are at odds with the party leadership, but which are not divisive because everyone accepts that the matter is effectively settled.Sean_F said:
It will never end (unless people in this country have a Damascene conversion in favour of political union).Richard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.
It's a view, I suppose.0 -
Theresa "The Nasty Party" May ? The only good thing I have to say about the EU is it has managed to nobble some of her more moronic surveillance state idiocy.GarethoftheVale2 said:I have to say it looks quite good for my MP Theresa who is keeping her head down and could come out of this looking good while everyone else is covered in mud.
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Leave.EU's role is now just to keep the diehards motivated, with some spillover into persuading the "they're all the same" cynics to vote against the Establishment.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Is it me but doesn't this just highlight the Treasury Report and provide more publicity for it.Pulpstar said:George must be pleased with Leave.EU, they've taken at least 20 years off him in their latest poster:
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/7220468858428252160 -
GRASSROOTS' poster is talking the language of the streets to counter the youth vote going to REMAIN.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Is this the group that includes Farage - if he has any sense he will bin it and come up with something clever and appealingMorris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, indeed, foul language on something for public consumption is unwise.
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Betfair moved to 2.76/2.78 for Leave.0
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I suspect we are not the target demographicBig_G_NorthWales said:Pulpstar said:George must be pleased with Leave.EU, they've taken at least 20 years off him in their latest poster:
Is it me but doesn't this just highlight the Treasury Report and provide more publicity for it.
This is a privileged Tories trying to collude with their euro-elite mates dog whistle to the WWC.
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Depends how close the result is, I think. If it's a reasonably clear-cut Remain result, then, yes. But it's important to note that it's not an affirmation of ever-closer union (which I think is dead anyway, TBH).Casino_Royale said:
Interesting. So you think the potential reaffirmation of our EU membership will turn out to leave those opposed on the wrong side of history?Richard_Nabavi said:
It might, however, become a background issue, like abortion or gay marriage or capital punishment - issues where it is accepted that there are some people in the party who hold strong views which are at odds with the party leadership, but which are not divisive because everyone accepts that the matter is effectively settled.Sean_F said:
It will never end (unless people in this country have a Damascene conversion in favour of political union).Richard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.
It's a view, I suppose.0 -
That's why I think it would need a huge shift in British attitudes towards the EU for that to happen. Future generations would have to look gratefully on David Cameron as the man who took the UK into the heart of Europe, and finished euroscepticism for good.Casino_Royale said:
Interesting. So you think the potential reaffirmation of our EU membership will turn out to leave those opposed on the wrong side of history?Richard_Nabavi said:
It might, however, become a background issue, like abortion or gay marriage or capital punishment - issues where it is accepted that there are some people in the party who hold strong views which are at odds with the party leadership, but which are not divisive because everyone accepts that the matter is effectively settled.Sean_F said:
It will never end (unless people in this country have a Damascene conversion in favour of political union).Richard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.
It's a view, I suppose.0 -
Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?0 -
Is that good or bad for leavetim80 said:Betfair moved to 2.76/2.78 for Leave.
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There has to be the suspicion especially on a firmish Remain vote that Brussels will see it in exactly that way. It seem likely that absent a political campaign, the natural state of the voters would be mildly Leave, the fact that Project Fear and other browbeating has converted enough to grudging remainers to swing the referendum shouldn't be taken by the government or the EU as the slightest enthusiasm for "more Europe".Richard_Nabavi said:
Depends how close the result is, I think. If it's a reasonably clear-cut Remain result, then, yes. But it's important to note that it's not an affirmation of ever-closer union (which I think is dead anyway, TBH).Casino_Royale said:
Interesting. So you think the potential reaffirmation of our EU membership will turn out to leave those opposed on the wrong side of history?Richard_Nabavi said:
It might, however, become a background issue, like abortion or gay marriage or capital punishment - issues where it is accepted that there are some people in the party who hold strong views which are at odds with the party leadership, but which are not divisive because everyone accepts that the matter is effectively settled.Sean_F said:
It will never end (unless people in this country have a Damascene conversion in favour of political union).Richard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.
It's a view, I suppose.0 -
I think you should attend, and then speak to him as Ian Paisley did towards the Pope.Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?0 -
Mandelson is a class act by any standards, whether you agree with him or not. You should go, but tell them you are a firm Leaver and that you don't expect to be persuaded!Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?0 -
The problem is that it will be seen by many more than 'language of the streets' and I am certain it will upset a lot of people who are to be persuaded by the leave campaign. Counter productive in my opinionDavid_Evershed said:
GRASSROOTS' poster is talking the language of the streets to counter the youth vote going to REMAIN.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Is this the group that includes Farage - if he has any sense he will bin it and come up with something clever and appealingMorris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, indeed, foul language on something for public consumption is unwise.
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Mr. Royale, be ill. Or have the wife book a holiday you can't get out of.0
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Book the ticket, get the "flu"Casino_Royale said:What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?
0 -
Go along, bite your tongue and report back on the musings of Mandelson. If anyone asks, you're undecided. Seems to work for the many of the staunch Remainers here.Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?
Or go all 'Death and Glory', have a few drinks and indulge in heckling and bread roll throwing. Before a job search the next day, unless you can successfully claim to have been on medication that reacted badly with the 3 or so bottles of Red infuriator that you downed.
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Well OGH was working for Betfair during the GE, allegedlymalcolmg said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
» show previous quotes
I sent you a vanilla message a few hours ago on this.
Be nice for all to know if it is utter tosh or which if any bits have any reality , I don't think a vanilla message to one person cuts the mustard.0 -
In the event of Leave there'll be calls from Remainers to join the EU. Now that would be fascinating, seeing them attempt to cobble together a positive, cohesive argument.0
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You want Casino Royale to get sacked?Sean_F said:
I think you should attend, and then speak to him as Ian Paisley did towards the Pope.Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?
CR - You're a civil chap, go and enjoy the hospitality0 -
So George has had to press the nuclear button on the economy. As a side issue, it means he loses huge credibility on his wider management of the economy if he is seen to shamelessly rely on the most manipulated outcome to get a result that isn't a whole heap different whether we Remain or Leave.
But what if this does't shift the polls? What else has Project Fear now got left in its missile silos?
I'm thinking that maybe Osborne has gone too far, too soon.....0 -
Lol!!!Sean_F said:
I think you should attend, and then speak to him as Ian Paisley did towards the Pope.Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?0 -
Difficult but reminds me as a Man Utd supporter when I somehow arrived in the Liverpool end to just enjoy the match but it was awkward when Utd scored and I jumped high out of my seat with a very loud 'YES'. I did survive mind youCasino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?0 -
I really don't think that anyone still believes that there is any enthusiasm in the UK for 'more Europe'. For that matter, there's not much enthusiasm in some other countries either; if anything, we seem to be seeing a loosening of EU ties. No doubt the Eurocrats and Euro-enthusiasts will dream on and keep producing position papers, but things have moved on.Indigo said:There has to be the suspicion especially on a firmish Remain vote that Brussels will see it in exactly that way. It seem likely that absent a political campaign, the natural state of the voters would be mildly Leave, the fact that Project Fear and other browbeating has converted enough to grudging remainers to swing the referendum shouldn't be taken by the government or the EU as the slightest enthusiasm for "more Europe".
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I'd go, find out what pearls of wisdom Mandelson gives out for his 'normal speaking fee'. Perhaps wonder how much your firm has spent on the jollyCasino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away? 0 -
I tend to agree. Not in favour of coarse language being used, though it will surprise no-one to learn I concur with the sentiments.Philip_Thompson said:
I think it demonstrates a level of immaturity that shows the Electoral Commission made exactly the right decision.Big_G_NorthWales said:I am amazed that whoever designed the leave.eu poster had no thought it would have on many undecided voters, their families and especially their children. Fierce debate and poster campaigns are all part of the campaign but this particular poster is just plain distasteful
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It is a fair point that hadn't occurred to me. With the left generally being pro remain and the HOC definitely could we really end up with a Neverendum, surely notblackburn63 said:In the event of Leave there'll be calls from Remainers to join the EU. Now that would be fascinating, seeing them attempt to cobble together a positive, cohesive argument.
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I think that if the rest of your firm are normal, sensible human beings with scant interest in or, more important, knowledge of the minutiae or nuances of Leave vs Remain then they will very much appreciate your input as a Leaver as, despite the fact that you have it completely wrong*, you have a coherent argument and people seem to be clamouring for information and guidance.Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?
* 0 -
I think they can get a lot more personal on accusations of racism, biggotry and general right wingery than they have done as yet. I expect to see a lot more twitter dredging as the campaign hots up.MarqueeMark said:So George has had to press the nuclear button on the economy. As a side issue, it means he loses huge credibility on his wider management of the economy if he is seen to shamelessly rely on the most manipulated outcome to get a result that isn't a whole heap different whether we Remain or Leave.
But what if this does't shift the polls? What else has Project Fear now got left in its missile silos?
I'm thinking that maybe Osborne has gone too far, too soon.....0 -
Attend. Ask a question on the risk of remaining in the EU if the Eurozone countries proceed to integrate further leaving us on the sideline isolated.Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?0 -
I'm surprised at the venue to be honest, won't Mandelson hiss at the alter and fly away as a bat or something.watford30 said:
Go along, bite your tongue and report back on the musings of Mandelson. If anyone asks, you're undecided. Seems to work for the many of the staunch Remainers here.Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?
Or go all 'Death and Glory', have a few drinks and indulge in heckling and bread roll throwing. Before a job search the next day, unless you can successfully claim to have been on medication that reacted badly with the 3 or so bottles of Red infuriator that you downed.0 -
I honestly believe the EU sees it very differently to you. Any sort of Yes vote will be taken as a very clear sign of agreement with the ongoing EU project and we will start to see more and more decisions taken which would previously have been considered impossible whilst wanting to keep the UK on board.Richard_Nabavi said:
Depends how close the result is, I think. If it's a reasonably clear-cut Remain result, then, yes. But it's important to note that it's not an affirmation of ever-closer union (which I think is dead anyway, TBH).Casino_Royale said:
Interesting. So you think the potential reaffirmation of our EU membership will turn out to leave those opposed on the wrong side of history?Richard_Nabavi said:
It might, however, become a background issue, like abortion or gay marriage or capital punishment - issues where it is accepted that there are some people in the party who hold strong views which are at odds with the party leadership, but which are not divisive because everyone accepts that the matter is effectively settled.Sean_F said:
It will never end (unless people in this country have a Damascene conversion in favour of political union).Richard_Nabavi said:From Mike's article:
I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992.
Precisely so. If Cameron can put this issue to bed (admittedly this might be a big 'if'), it will be a major, major political achievement, both in terms of party politics and the wider political picture. Furthermore, the current battles, and the current economic uncertainty leading up to the referendum, are a price which had to be paid at some time.
It's a view, I suppose.
It at take a year or so but you will have to revisit some of your assumptions and views fairly quickly in the case of a Yes vote. Not least because it will be pretty fundamental for the survival of the Eurozone that more EU control is exercised over the City of London.0 -
I shall be voting for Theresa May if she puts herself forward for Leader of the Conservative Party. I'm sure she is fully aware that the media will be gunning for her, for the simple reason that she will bore them to death. I doubt they will be able to dig up any dirt on her, although they will try.
Some of her colleagues are making complete fools of themselves re their comments about the EU referendum and their comments will be hung round their necks forever.0 -
Mandelson was sacked twice for dishonesty, he is everything I despise about the political elite.
Remain couldn't have a better person speaking for them.0 -
Afternoon all.
Osborne's figures today are exactly the kind of half-truths I highlight in my most recent personal blog post. Indeed it has taken me plenty of time and much thinking but I have declared for 'Vote Leave' today. I elaborate my thinking here: www.jamesmalcolm.com/voteleave - hope the post makes sense, even if you don't share my analysis!0 -
Just researching Popper (for reasons I won't bore you with), and came across this nice bit, which is applicable to modern society:
"Although Popper was an advocate of toleration, he said that intolerance should not be tolerated, for if tolerance allowed intolerance to succeed completely, tolerance would be threatened. In The Open Society and Its Enemies, he argued..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper0 -
Very much looking forward to reading it; thanks for the link. Enjoyed also this eat, shoots and leaves part of your biog...JamesM said:Afternoon all.
Osborne's figures today are exactly the kind of half-truths I highlight in my most recent personal blog post. Indeed it has taken me plenty of time and much thinking but I have declared for 'Vote Leave' today. I elaborate my thinking here: www.jamesmalcolm.com/voteleave - hope the post makes sense, even if you don't share my analysis!
I was a Data Analyst at the Centre for Studies in Terrorism and Political Violence in St Andrews, Scotland (2004-05)0 -
You remind me of those old-fashioned football commentators, who used to say 'what a dreadful example to all those young people watching' when anyone was sent off.Big_G_NorthWales said:I am amazed that whoever designed the leave.eu poster had no thought it would have on many undecided voters, their families and especially their children. Fierce debate and poster campaigns are all part of the campaign but this particular poster is just plain distasteful
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I know you don't see it this way but for me as socially liberal former Tory activist that sentence does very much strike me as putting party before countryBig_G_NorthWales said:
As a conservative member I am very annoyed with both sides as the Country having a conservative government is far more important to me than remaining in or leaving the EUSouthamObserver said:We'll get eight weeks of the Tories shouting at each other. Then Dave either loses and stands down and the shouting starts again over his successor and the Brexit negotiations, or Remain wins and he stays and the Leavers shout Betrayal at every opportunity. With a wafer thin majority this is not going away until 2020 at the earliest. Meanwhile most people in the country will look on bemused, at best, or increasingly furious at worst.
One thing you have to consider us that no matter how much you might wish it we will have another Labour Government in the future and they could do far less damage to us outside the EU than still in it.0 -
RelaxMarqueeMark said:But what if this does't shift the polls? What else has Project Fear now got left in its missile silos?
Project Fear, better known as the Worldwide Global Conspiracy (c John Redwood) has plenty more missiles in their silos...
PS, can you lend me some tinfoil? Thanks.0 -
Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm surprised at the venue to be honest, won't Mandelson hiss at the alter and fly away as a bat or something.watford30 said:
Go along, bite your tongue and report back on the musings of Mandelson. If anyone asks, you're undecided. Seems to work for the many of the staunch Remainers here.Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?
Or go all 'Death and Glory', have a few drinks and indulge in heckling and bread roll throwing. Before a job search the next day, unless you can successfully claim to have been on medication that reacted badly with the 3 or so bottles of Red infuriator that you downed.
Only if he's exposed to Sunlight.Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm surprised at the venue to be honest, won't Mandelson hiss at the alter and fly away as a bat or something.watford30 said:
Go along, bite your tongue and report back on the musings of Mandelson. If anyone asks, you're undecided. Seems to work for the many of the staunch Remainers here.Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?
Or go all 'Death and Glory', have a few drinks and indulge in heckling and bread roll throwing. Before a job search the next day, unless you can successfully claim to have been on medication that reacted badly with the 3 or so bottles of Red infuriator that you downed.0 -
I am no puritan - it is just unnecessary and leave.eu should be bigger than thatrunnymede said:
You remind me of those old-fashioned football commentators, who used to say 'what a dreadful example to all those young people watching' when anyone was sent off.Big_G_NorthWales said:I am amazed that whoever designed the leave.eu poster had no thought it would have on many undecided voters, their families and especially their children. Fierce debate and poster campaigns are all part of the campaign but this particular poster is just plain distasteful
0 -
A key business skill is being able to separate the personal and the professional and knowing when it's best to say nothing. Just don't drink any alcohol.Casino_Royale said:Off topic - my firm (led by ardent Remainers) have invited me along to an event on 14th June at Westminster Abbey where the guest speaker is Peter Mandelson, who will be "sharing his thoughts" on the Europe debate.
They have booked a table, invited me as along it's a "fantastic networking event" but don't know I'm a Leaver.
I really don't think it's a good idea for me to go, especially barely 10 days before the vote. The subject is bound to come up around the table. I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut.
What do pb'ers think? How would I politely turn it down without giving my views away?0 -
Nah. Big G is right on this. I would be angry if my kids saw such language on a billboard no matter how much I might agree with the sentiment. This will annoy far more people than it attracts. lt is another stupid own goal.runnymede said:
You remind me of those old-fashioned football commentators, who used to say 'what a dreadful example to all those young people watching' when anyone was sent off.Big_G_NorthWales said:I am amazed that whoever designed the leave.eu poster had no thought it would have on many undecided voters, their families and especially their children. Fierce debate and poster campaigns are all part of the campaign but this particular poster is just plain distasteful
0 -
I do consider a conservative government as essential for the Country and outside the EU Corbyn could go merrily on his way Nationalising everything in sight which could really damage the economyRichard_Tyndall said:
I know you don't see it this way but for me as socially liberal former Tory activist that sentence does very much strike me as putting party before countryBig_G_NorthWales said:
As a conservative member I am very annoyed with both sides as the Country having a conservative government is far more important to me than remaining in or leaving the EUSouthamObserver said:We'll get eight weeks of the Tories shouting at each other. Then Dave either loses and stands down and the shouting starts again over his successor and the Brexit negotiations, or Remain wins and he stays and the Leavers shout Betrayal at every opportunity. With a wafer thin majority this is not going away until 2020 at the earliest. Meanwhile most people in the country will look on bemused, at best, or increasingly furious at worst.
One thing you have to consider us that no matter how much you might wish it we will have another Labour Government in the future and they could do far less damage to us outside the EU than still in it.0
