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The retirees back the Tories so expect the workers to see their taxes rise – politicalbetting.com

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    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Vaguely on topic, it's the classic conundrum for any Party - screw your own supporters or screw everyone else. That should for some on here be a no-brainer but the truth is sometimes Governments have to do things which test the loyalty of their supporters.

    The problem is building a voting coalition on whom you are so reliant it becomes impossible to govern effectively in the interests of the whole country is the very definition of a house built on sand.

    If that coalition is so fragile it falls apart at the first sign of anything negative it's not worth having at all. Those who voted for Johnson, Brexit and the Conservatives in 2019 may have thought they were electing a Government who would never say or do anything to offend them morally or politically or adversely affect them financially but that's not how Government should work.

    I know some will disagree but I have this curious old-fashioned notion Governments are elected to govern in the interests of all not just those who voted for them.

    And that's the heart of the matter. At some point, the national culture changed for the worse.

    OK, it was never a disinterested "do what's in the best interests of the whole nation". There was always an element of "vote for us and we'll see you all right". But historically substantial Prime Ministers (Blair, say) really acted as if doing things his way would make everyone benefit. Even Thatcher, divisive (and in some ways wrong) as she was, believed that what she was doing was the right thing for all. And when presented with think tank reports suggesting (for example) that Liverpool should be left to die, she binned them, even though there were precisely zero votes in it for her.

    For some reason, that's not the case right now. It all feels very American; vote for me so I can bring home the pork barrel. (Hi Ben! Hello Rishi!) Or there are 55 of me and 45 of you, so I can trample on your previous rights in any way I can imagine (see Texas and those who defend what's happened there). The will of just over half the people becomes the will of all the people.

    And some of it is the fault of politicians exploiting this to gain power. But some of it is down to us as voters. We've become as consumerist about our politics as we have about our shopping. And I'm not sure that running a country works like that.
    Very good post. But I'd say it's almost all down to us. This is a democracy. We're the boss.
    Indeed. Voters get the state they deserve.
  • Options
    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    stodge said:


    And that's the heart of the matter. At some point, the national culture changed for the worse.

    OK, it was never a disinterested "do what's in the best interests of the whole nation". There was always an element of "vote for us and we'll see you all right". But historically substantial Prime Ministers (Blair, say) really acted as if doing things his way would make everyone benefit. Even Thatcher, divisive (and in some ways wrong) as she was, believed that what she was doing was the right thing for all. And when presented with think tank reports suggesting (for example) that Liverpool should be left to die, she binned them, even though there were precisely zero votes in it for her.

    For some reason, that's not the case right now. It all feels very American; vote for me so I can bring home the pork barrel. (Hi Ben! Hello Rishi!) Or there are 55 of me and 45 of you, so I can trample on your previous rights in any way I can imagine (see Texas and those who defend what's happened there). The will of just over half the people becomes the will of all the people.

    And some of it is the fault of politicians exploiting this to gain power. But some of it is down to us as voters. We've become as consumerist about our politics as we have about our shopping. And I'm not sure that running a country works like that.

    The culture is increasingly "this has to be paid for but I'm not paying for it". It's almost impossible to have a meaningful conversation about tax because the very notion of raising taxes provokes a reaction.
    In fairness no one ever liked paying tax, they used to riot if it happened too often, but we do expect so much more now. And everything is a 'stealth' tax or a 'raid'. Depressing stuff.
    Well folk better get used to it. There is more coming down the line. This paltry amount isn't going to fix social care. It is barely enough to make up Covid NHS backlog. And the Triple Lock is supposedly ending.
    Lay Rishi. His star is about to crash to Earth.
    We have another decade of retrenchment on the way. Folk haven't realised yet. They are in no mood for it.
    This is why the collapse in journalism is significant. Journalists ought to be out there informing the general population. Instead, they redraft press releases.
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    kamskikamski Posts: 4,239
    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    6 pollsters now have the CDU/CSU on 20-22%. It could be difficult for them to stay in office even with a three party coalition. A "traffic light" coalition seems the most likely outcome at this stage: Social Democrats, Greens and Free Democrats.

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    The Union have known for how long Merkel is going? Surprising the wheels are falling off so quickly.
    From January to early March 2020 CDU/CSU (ie before coronavirus gave them a boost) were polling entirely in the 24%-28% range. First half of 2019 they were polling around 30. If you ignore the coronavirus surge they've been declining since 2018, with some big swings in the last weeks. The start of the current drop coincides with the floods in July and Laschet's poor response, but it would be wrong to think that the CDU's poor polling is all down to him.

    The revival of the SPD is maybe more interesting, for most of the last 3 years it looked as if the Greens might be the party to overtake CDU/CSU. Lots of potential Green voters seem to have decided to switch to the SPD instead.

    The SPD campaign has been bland (as German campaigns tend to be) but a couple of concrete policies have been prominently pushed eg raising the minimum wage to 12 euros. The local CDU posters are entirely vacuous (eg "Kompetenz und Klarheit" under a mugshot of the local candidate).

    Lots of Volt posters this time, interesting pan European party, but they won't do much except take a point off the Greens.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,256

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Vaguely on topic, it's the classic conundrum for any Party - screw your own supporters or screw everyone else. That should for some on here be a no-brainer but the truth is sometimes Governments have to do things which test the loyalty of their supporters.

    The problem is building a voting coalition on whom you are so reliant it becomes impossible to govern effectively in the interests of the whole country is the very definition of a house built on sand.

    If that coalition is so fragile it falls apart at the first sign of anything negative it's not worth having at all. Those who voted for Johnson, Brexit and the Conservatives in 2019 may have thought they were electing a Government who would never say or do anything to offend them morally or politically or adversely affect them financially but that's not how Government should work.

    I know some will disagree but I have this curious old-fashioned notion Governments are elected to govern in the interests of all not just those who voted for them.

    And that's the heart of the matter. At some point, the national culture changed for the worse.

    OK, it was never a disinterested "do what's in the best interests of the whole nation". There was always an element of "vote for us and we'll see you all right". But historically substantial Prime Ministers (Blair, say) really acted as if doing things his way would make everyone benefit. Even Thatcher, divisive (and in some ways wrong) as she was, believed that what she was doing was the right thing for all. And when presented with think tank reports suggesting (for example) that Liverpool should be left to die, she binned them, even though there were precisely zero votes in it for her.

    For some reason, that's not the case right now. It all feels very American; vote for me so I can bring home the pork barrel. (Hi Ben! Hello Rishi!) Or there are 55 of me and 45 of you, so I can trample on your previous rights in any way I can imagine (see Texas and those who defend what's happened there). The will of just over half the people becomes the will of all the people.

    And some of it is the fault of politicians exploiting this to gain power. But some of it is down to us as voters. We've become as consumerist about our politics as we have about our shopping. And I'm not sure that running a country works like that.
    Very good post. But I'd say it's almost all down to us. This is a democracy. We're the boss.
    Indeed. Voters get the state they deserve.
    The trouble is that some of us get the state the other voters deserve.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Swiss food?

    Expensive, even for simple fare. I was going to say it's possibly the worst value in Europe, but even that seems too kind. It's cheaper and easier to get a good meal in Beverly Hills than in much of Switzerland.

    And even if you are prepared to pay up, it's usually not as good as the neighbours.

    Alpine cuisine? Done better in France.

    Italian cuisine? Done better in Italy.

    German cuisine? Done better in Germany. Done better in Argentina, for that matter.

    And even if you find somewhere with OK food, the atmosphere is usually very average. Or worse.

    You should go to Chez Dany in Verbier

    It’s a walk up the mountain (not possible to ski directly there) but always crowded and jolly. Does the best rosti I have ever had and at a very reasonable price

    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g198848-d2224220-Reviews-Chez_Dany-Verbier_Canton_of_Valais_Swiss_Alps.html
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