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The retirees back the Tories so expect the workers to see their taxes rise – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 3 in General
The retirees back the Tories so expect the workers to see their taxes rise – politicalbetting.com

The Conservatives were behind Labour among the under-65s at the last general election. This is one reason why the Tories are relaxed about raising National Insurance – a tax solely imposed on workers. https://t.co/rXU5AKD3qp pic.twitter.com/0Mhq3ropMB

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Comments

  • Test
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,804
    edited September 3
    Moral first.
    Am I the only one tiring of hearing government speakers and their apologists talking about NI rises as an alternative to tax rises?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 11,406

    Test

    England 248/7
  • dixiedean said:

    Moral first.

    Nah, mine was to check see if the comments work, there's a flaw with vanilla/wordpress at the moment and it doesn't like long titles.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,804
    Am surprised Labour was ahead amongst non-retirees. All is not lost then. Far from it.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 5,523
    On topic: it is a strikingly cynical and self interested move, isn't it, even for a government that has elevated cynical self interest to an art form.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,627
    I'd "like" the footnote in the header if there was a button for it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 23,883
    We need to find a way to tax wealth rather than income. If social care, or indeed anything, is funded by raising income tax or national insurance, people like me are denied the opportunity to contribute. This is not fair.
  • JCVI can go and f##king do one....
  • Utterly shameful by the government.

    One out of 125 embassy guards promised help to leave Afghanistan made it to UK

    Exclusive: Foreign Office said guards would be given right to come to Britain, but evacuation attempt failed

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/03/one-out-of-125-embassy-guards-promised-help-to-leave-afghanistan-made-it-to-uk
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,022
    "@EuropeElects
    Germany, YouGov poll:

    SPD-S&D: 25% (+1)
    CDU/CSU-EPP: 20% (-2)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 15% (-1)
    FDP-RE: 13%
    AfD-ID: 12% (+1)
    LINKE-LEFT: 8%

    +/- vs. 20-24 Aug

    Fieldwork: 27-31 August 2021
    Sample size: 2,017 total respondents, 1,729 declared"
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,804
    kinabalu said:

    We need to find a way to tax wealth rather than income. If social care, or indeed anything, is funded by raising income tax or national insurance, people like me are denied the opportunity to contribute. This is not fair.

    You are aware of what response you'll get? Summat about writing a cheque?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,804
    Pope out. Well played.
  • pingping Posts: 1,142
    It’s the end of ideology.

    Now politics is all about taxing and cutting welfare for the other tribe - while cutting taxes and protecting/increasing welfare for your own tribe.

    There must be a word for it. Clientelism?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 23,883
    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    We need to find a way to tax wealth rather than income. If social care, or indeed anything, is funded by raising income tax or national insurance, people like me are denied the opportunity to contribute. This is not fair.

    You are aware of what response you'll get? Summat about writing a cheque?
    I am. But I hope the point I'm making survives such jocularity.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 20,898
    England reported date cases up fairly significantly from last Friday.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,007
    Alistair said:

    England reported date cases up fairly significantly from last Friday.

    It's almost like schools are going back.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 7,852
    kinabalu said:

    We need to find a way to tax wealth rather than income. If social care, or indeed anything, is funded by raising income tax or national insurance, people like me are denied the opportunity to contribute. This is not fair.

    Don't want to pry, but do you not have an income, or have one but not pay tax on it?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310
    Alistair said:

    England reported date cases up fairly significantly from last Friday.

    Cases added to Tuesday by specimen date which would probably have been added to Monday. I wouldn't panic just yet.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 7,852

    Utterly shameful by the government.

    One out of 125 embassy guards promised help to leave Afghanistan made it to UK

    Exclusive: Foreign Office said guards would be given right to come to Britain, but evacuation attempt failed

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/03/one-out-of-125-embassy-guards-promised-help-to-leave-afghanistan-made-it-to-uk

    Nobody, it seems, cares. Last week's news.
  • Collapso.....
  • JCVI can go and f##king do one....

    As can the government if they raise taxes on workers ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    dixiedean said:

    Pope out. Well played.

    Not to the ball that got him out.
    Likewise Robinson.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 23,883
    edited September 3
    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    We need to find a way to tax wealth rather than income. If social care, or indeed anything, is funded by raising income tax or national insurance, people like me are denied the opportunity to contribute. This is not fair.

    Don't want to pry, but do you not have an income, or have one but not pay tax on it?
    It's small, cf assets, so I don't pay much tax. It's not zero but it's not much. I'd imagine there are quite a few like me.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,627
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    England reported date cases up fairly significantly from last Friday.

    It's almost like schools are going back.
    my 15yo granddaughter is awaiting her test result and she hasnt even gone back yet. her mum has tested positive. we told her to get jabbed but all we got was "nobody up here has caught it" and "i'll be ok even if i do get it". both feeling poorly.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,965
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    England reported date cases up fairly significantly from last Friday.

    It's almost like schools are going back.
    With a ton of pre-school testing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 30,757
    fpt
    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment.

    Other than that, great post.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment....
    And Dancing Queen with ancient ritual rites ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 13,923
    IshmaelZ said:

    Utterly shameful by the government.

    One out of 125 embassy guards promised help to leave Afghanistan made it to UK

    Exclusive: Foreign Office said guards would be given right to come to Britain, but evacuation attempt failed

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/03/one-out-of-125-embassy-guards-promised-help-to-leave-afghanistan-made-it-to-uk

    Nobody, it seems, cares. Last week's news.
    Well, Mr Johnson has dropped a rather large cat on the table where the Mace sits, in the form of social care. Of course attention is on this animal, extremely dead in contrast to the latest lot of migrants from Kabul.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 23,883
    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment.

    Other than that, great post.
    "Take it easy, take it easy, take it nice and slow, that's no way to go, does your mother know?"

    That one rocks, and the lyrics are pretty edgy.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 30,757
    kinabalu said:

    We need to find a way to tax wealth rather than income. If social care, or indeed anything, is funded by raising income tax or national insurance, people like me are denied the opportunity to contribute. This is not fair.

    Just write a fucking cheque to HMRC.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,965
    This is interesting - from their report:

    "In providing its advice, JCVI also recognises that in relation to childhood immunisation programmes, the UK public places a higher relative value on safety compared to benefits."

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 20,898
    edited September 3
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    England reported date cases up fairly significantly from last Friday.

    It's almost like schools are going back.
    I remember last year when the authorities were completely surprised by the rise in children wanting tests when schools went back despite what happened i scotland the month before.

    This time I'm expecting headline writers to be surprised by a rise in England cases despite the Scotland example.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 3,386

    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    England reported date cases up fairly significantly from last Friday.

    It's almost like schools are going back.
    With a ton of pre-school testing.
    Watched a news report on pre school testing just yesterday. I’ll be astonished if we don’t see a similar effect to Scotland 2-3 weeks ago.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 23,883
    edited September 3
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    We need to find a way to tax wealth rather than income. If social care, or indeed anything, is funded by raising income tax or national insurance, people like me are denied the opportunity to contribute. This is not fair.

    Just write a fucking cheque to HMRC.
    Of course I will. Consider it done. But it needs formalizing and it needs legal force. We don't want social care in England to be reliant on private charity.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,965

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    The report reads to me like they want further data on the medium to long term issues with myocarditis before taking the plunge.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,355
    People “working for average incomes – crushed by a decade of feckless Tory rule”: PM’s own adviser coming to a Labour poster soon
    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1433815425171734532
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    And its not a JCVI decision but recommendation.

    Within the parameters they've been given its not unreasonable - and as they point out there may be other factors to consider beyond their remit which they have suggested the governments follow up - which they have done.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 30,757
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment.

    Other than that, great post.
    "Take it easy, take it easy, take it nice and slow, that's no way to go, does your mother know?"

    That one rocks, and the lyrics are pretty edgy.
    Not quite F R Leavis, now, are you?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 556
    dixiedean said:

    Am surprised Labour was ahead amongst non-retirees. All is not lost then. Far from it.

    Don't get too excited. Taking into account both pure demographics and propensity to turn out and vote, one third of the entire electorate is over 65 (i.e. are well-bribed stickbangers or about to become them) and an entire half is over 55 and therefore only has a short time left to wait. If you are talking about getting the old to pay more tax or to pay for their dementia care then it's all that lot you've got to contend with, plus a very large number of heirs to the wealthier ones to boot. There are an awful lot of middle-aged people staggering under the burden of millstone mortgages and demanding kids who expect, and very often need, their parents' inheritances passing on intact.

    In fact, if I recall correctly, the crossover point at which more people voted Tory than Labour at the last election was somewhere in the late 30s. Between that and its (self-inflicted) Scottish calamity, Labour has enormous structural problems to overcome. There's little sign that it is in any position to do so.

    Beyond that, as I said this morning, in terms of pure political expediency the Government should respond to the social care crisis by nationalising the entire cost and presenting the bill to working age taxpayers. It would be wretchedly unfair but we live in a gerontocracy now, and besides there's little point in courting the youth vote, who would mostly turn out for left-wing parties regardless. The old would be thrilled, the better-off middle-aged would grumble but look forward to receiving their fat legacies, and between them that support might be sufficient to usher in a Tory Supremacy that lasts for decades.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 30,757
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    We need to find a way to tax wealth rather than income. If social care, or indeed anything, is funded by raising income tax or national insurance, people like me are denied the opportunity to contribute. This is not fair.

    Just write a fucking cheque to HMRC.
    Of course I will. Consider it done. But it needs formalizing and it needs legal force. We don't want social care in England to be reliant on private charity.
    Just write the fucking cheque.

    "People like me are denied the opportunity to contribute."

    No they are not.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    Rubbish, the JCVI are second guessing the MHRA. I trust the regulator. Do you?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 7,852
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment.

    Other than that, great post.
    "Take it easy, take it easy, take it nice and slow, that's no way to go, does your mother know?"

    That one rocks, and the lyrics are pretty edgy.
    Sounds like the mise en scene of an unusually Grimm fairy tale.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 67,843
    Scott_xP said:

    People “working for average incomes – crushed by a decade of feckless Tory rule”: PM’s own adviser coming to a Labour poster soon
    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1433815425171734532

    It's less of an issue for him as he's not a loyalist obviously, but there is a problem in claiming the gov is so crap an infant would know it when he chose to work for it. Yes yes, to make a go of it or whatever, but at a point it makes him look dumb for trying.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    And its not a JCVI decision but recommendation.

    Within the parameters they've been given its not unreasonable - and as they point out there may be other factors to consider beyond their remit which they have suggested the governments follow up - which they have done.
    You can dance on the head of a pin as much as you want, they are making this decision and forcing the government's hand. I mean their reasoning is ridiculous. Disruption caused by vaccinations at schools. It's laughable.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,147
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    We need to find a way to tax wealth rather than income. If social care, or indeed anything, is funded by raising income tax or national insurance, people like me are denied the opportunity to contribute. This is not fair.

    Just write a fucking cheque to HMRC.
    Of course I will. Consider it done. But it needs formalizing and it needs legal force. We don't want social care in England to be reliant on private charity.
    Private charity would be giving the money directly to a nursing home. If you give the money to the government, you're relying on them to spend it how you want.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,195
    Scott_xP said:

    People “working for average incomes – crushed by a decade of feckless Tory rule”: PM’s own adviser coming to a Labour poster soon
    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1433815425171734532

    In the same post, Dom also says that if taxes have to rise, it should be on the wealthiest 1%, not on those on average and below average incomes.

    Surely Dom wouldn't switch sides, would he? As we speak, Starmer's posting him out an application form.
  • pingping Posts: 1,142
    edited September 3
    Scott_xP said:

    People “working for average incomes – crushed by a decade of feckless Tory rule”: PM’s own adviser coming to a Labour poster soon
    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1433815425171734532

    Eh?

    Labour would be bloody stupid to approvingly quote Dominic Cummings. The public hate him.

    You need to be political obsessives, like us, to make sense of the message.

    The general public would suffer cognitive dissonance if they saw that on a poster. Silly tweet by JR.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 556
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    England reported date cases up fairly significantly from last Friday.

    Cases added to Tuesday by specimen date which would probably have been added to Monday. I wouldn't panic just yet.
    I'd try not to get too hung up on cases full stop. But an awful lot of other people will.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 67,843
    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    And its not a JCVI decision but recommendation.

    Within the parameters they've been given its not unreasonable - and as they point out there may be other factors to consider beyond their remit which they have suggested the governments follow up - which they have done.
    You can dance on the head of a pin as much as you want, they are making this decision and forcing the government's hand. I mean their reasoning is ridiculous. Disruption caused by vaccinations at schools. It's laughable.
    The reasoning may be ridiculous but it's not dancing on the head of a pin to call a recommendation a recommendation.

    It may be for decision makers to go against a recommendation sometimes but they can.

  • The kindest explanation of putting the bill on NI is that increasing Income Tax rates is such a massive taboo in the UK that the government can't countenance it. Fiscal drag on allowances is kind of acceptable because it's invisible, but that tree has already been shaken. National Insurance sounds worthier- that was the thinking behind Gordo the Great's increase of NI, wasn't it? But "The Prime Minister who increased the basic rate of income tax" sounds like one of those H.M. Bateman cartoons.

    But the unfortunate consequence of funding social care through NI is that it transfers money from the young to the old.

    It is an unfortunate consequence, isn't it?

    (Yes, this needs to happen, yes it will be expensive, yes we're all going to have to pay. And the longer we leave it, the worse the hole will get. But NI is a really bad way of raking the necessary money in.)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 3,386
    pigeon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    England reported date cases up fairly significantly from last Friday.

    Cases added to Tuesday by specimen date which would probably have been added to Monday. I wouldn't panic just yet.
    I'd try not to get too hung up on cases full stop. But an awful lot of other people will.
    Yes, too many people have failed to adapt to the change that vaccination has brought. Certainly until this year increasing cases was a really bad sign of a lot more hospitalisation and death. Now it means a bit more, and for the most part among the unvaccinated.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983
    Thread on increasing cases in England (31,726 vs 27,545 a week ago):

    We can be fairly sure this is no longer a Bank Holiday reporting delay.

    However, it may just be a blip.

    Two things suggest it’s not.

    Firstly, English schools started going back this week.

    The % of cases first diagnosed by LFD rose from 20% last week to 23% this week.....

    Second, cases in the 10-19 year age group are rising, now nearly at the 'Boardmasters peak' of 17 August.

    A very slight uptick in 5-9 year olds.

    Of note - cases in 40-49 and 50-59 year olds have been slowly and steadily increasing since early August...

    None of this is particularly surprising - it reflect case ascertainment rather than increased transmission - as pupils test to go back to school.

    However, these case numbers are higher than many of of would have liked going into the new school year.


    https://twitter.com/kallmemeg/status/1433812143464386577?s=20
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,195
    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    Rubbish, the JCVI are second guessing the MHRA. I trust the regulator. Do you?
    You seem to be somewhat lacking in courtesy and reasoned debate today. As somebody who is retired as well, I'm really glad you don't know where I live.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 3,386
    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    And its not a JCVI decision but recommendation.

    Within the parameters they've been given its not unreasonable - and as they point out there may be other factors to consider beyond their remit which they have suggested the governments follow up - which they have done.
    You can dance on the head of a pin as much as you want, they are making this decision and forcing the government's hand. I mean their reasoning is ridiculous. Disruption caused by vaccinations at schools. It's laughable.
    I cannot see how a day or two of vaccination at a school is more disruptive than (a) disruption due to staff and students catching Covid or isolating as contacts or even (b) closed for an election polling station.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983
    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    Rubbish, the JCVI are second guessing the MHRA. I trust the regulator. Do you?
    Where do the JCVI "second guess" the MHRA?

    Both say "it's safe". So no "contradictions".

    They've got different jobs and they're both doing them.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,965

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    34m
    All credit to the members of the JCVI for not buckling under pressure from ministers, media and teaching unions. Instead they've looked at the EVIDENCE. This is what Following The Science actually means.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    And its not a JCVI decision but recommendation.

    Within the parameters they've been given its not unreasonable - and as they point out there may be other factors to consider beyond their remit which they have suggested the governments follow up - which they have done.
    You can dance on the head of a pin as much as you want, they are making this decision and forcing the government's hand. I mean their reasoning is ridiculous. Disruption caused by vaccinations at schools. It's laughable.
    The reasoning may be ridiculous but it's not dancing on the head of a pin to call a recommendation a recommendation.

    It may be for decision makers to go against a recommendation sometimes but they can.

    And if the government chooses to go against the JCVI recommendation how long will it be until they're all over the media just like SAGE were when the government went ahead with step 4? How many squeals of "ignoring the science" will we get and "unsafe vaccine given to kids" from the usual suspects?

    The JCVI have completely undermined the MHRA decision to approve it based on absolutely nothing and they're trying to force the government to not use/waste the UK vaccine stock on what they see as marginal cases and instead give it away. They've already stated their ultimate goal is for the government to give our vaccines away to the third world and that we should be wary of being a vaccinated island etc...

    It's just the same as those dodgy scientists pushing their shit data models earlier this year. The government listened to them for far too long. Nate Silver had a massive go at the UK data models and the modellers pushing their pro lockdown agenda with them. Now we have a different set of scientists pushing a different political agenda. The regulator has said it's safe. Everything else is irrelevant.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 33,746
    FPT


    Carnyx said:

    » show previous quotes
    My family's idea of a summer, springt and autumn holiday was a week or two in a wooden chalet right on a huge sandy beach. If you have been sandblasted on the thighs as a child in the final snowy weeks of winter, nothing compares since.

    We used to go to the Isle of Man, happy days on the beach at Douglas
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment.

    Other than that, great post.
    "Take it easy, take it easy, take it nice and slow, that's no way to go, does your mother know?"

    That one rocks, and the lyrics are pretty edgy.
    Not quite F R Leavis, now, are you?
    That ought to be a compliment to any sensible soul.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 3,386
    Since the mhra and jcvi agree it would be safe to vaccinate 12 to 15 year olds, I’d like a PM of conviction to just get on with it and offer it, with parental opt out as an option.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,195

    Thread on increasing cases in England (31,726 vs 27,545 a week ago):

    We can be fairly sure this is no longer a Bank Holiday reporting delay.

    However, it may just be a blip.

    Two things suggest it’s not.

    Firstly, English schools started going back this week.

    The % of cases first diagnosed by LFD rose from 20% last week to 23% this week.....

    Second, cases in the 10-19 year age group are rising, now nearly at the 'Boardmasters peak' of 17 August.

    A very slight uptick in 5-9 year olds.

    Of note - cases in 40-49 and 50-59 year olds have been slowly and steadily increasing since early August...

    None of this is particularly surprising - it reflect case ascertainment rather than increased transmission - as pupils test to go back to school.

    However, these case numbers are higher than many of of would have liked going into the new school year.


    https://twitter.com/kallmemeg/status/1433812143464386577?s=20

    Anecdotal, but at my daughter's sixth form college it was the new arrivals' first day (so they would have been keen to come, not skiving). 90 (of about 1,200) have phoned in to say they wouldn't be in because they had tested positive (I think the college had asked them to do an LFT before coming). These are 16/17 year-olds, of course.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 33,746

    Thread on increasing cases in England (31,726 vs 27,545 a week ago):

    We can be fairly sure this is no longer a Bank Holiday reporting delay.

    However, it may just be a blip.

    Two things suggest it’s not.

    Firstly, English schools started going back this week.

    The % of cases first diagnosed by LFD rose from 20% last week to 23% this week.....

    Second, cases in the 10-19 year age group are rising, now nearly at the 'Boardmasters peak' of 17 August.

    A very slight uptick in 5-9 year olds.

    Of note - cases in 40-49 and 50-59 year olds have been slowly and steadily increasing since early August...

    None of this is particularly surprising - it reflect case ascertainment rather than increased transmission - as pupils test to go back to school.

    However, these case numbers are higher than many of of would have liked going into the new school year.


    https://twitter.com/kallmemeg/status/1433812143464386577?s=20

    Highly likely it will follow Scotland and rise for 2-3 weeks
  • MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    Rubbish, the JCVI are second guessing the MHRA. I trust the regulator. Do you?
    Where do the JCVI "second guess" the MHRA?

    Both say "it's safe". So no "contradictions".

    They've got different jobs and they're both doing them.
    Rubbish, they've fuelled antivaxxers that's all.

    If its safe [it is] and beneficial [it is] they should have recommended the jab.

    That they have sat on the fence is just fuelling people like JHB who don't want the jabs to go ahead.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735

    The kindest explanation of putting the bill on NI is that increasing Income Tax rates is such a massive taboo in the UK that the government can't countenance it. Fiscal drag on allowances is kind of acceptable because it's invisible, but that tree has already been shaken. National Insurance sounds worthier- that was the thinking behind Gordo the Great's increase of NI, wasn't it? But "The Prime Minister who increased the basic rate of income tax" sounds like one of those H.M. Bateman cartoons.

    But the unfortunate consequence of funding social care through NI is that it transfers money from the young to the old.

    It is an unfortunate consequence, isn't it?

    (Yes, this needs to happen, yes it will be expensive, yes we're all going to have to pay. And the longer we leave it, the worse the hole will get. But NI is a really bad way of raking the necessary money in.)

    Dissembling tax rises via the NI gambit ought to be an even bigger taboo.
    I hope they take severe flack for this.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    Woakes is a mensch.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983
    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    And its not a JCVI decision but recommendation.

    Within the parameters they've been given its not unreasonable - and as they point out there may be other factors to consider beyond their remit which they have suggested the governments follow up - which they have done.
    You can dance on the head of a pin as much as you want, they are making this decision and forcing the government's hand. I mean their reasoning is ridiculous. Disruption caused by vaccinations at schools. It's laughable.
    In what way are they "forcing the government's hand"?

    They've pointed out the government's path past their recommendation.

    I'm not sure distributing Pfizer to 4,000 secondary schools is a trivial matter....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310

    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    Rubbish, the JCVI are second guessing the MHRA. I trust the regulator. Do you?
    Where do the JCVI "second guess" the MHRA?

    Both say "it's safe". So no "contradictions".

    They've got different jobs and they're both doing them.
    And yet the MHRA have approved it for 12-15 year olds whole the JCVI have said no. They are undermining the regulator's decision to try and force the government to give vaccines away. This the is their ultimate goal. They have said it many times. You're falling for it. They're forcing the government to "go against the science" and vaccinate anyway hoping that the government will back down and accept that 12-15 vaccines and a wide booster programme is now off the table so start giving away vaccine doses to other countries.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 33,746

    Utterly shameful by the government.

    One out of 125 embassy guards promised help to leave Afghanistan made it to UK

    Exclusive: Foreign Office said guards would be given right to come to Britain, but evacuation attempt failed

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/03/one-out-of-125-embassy-guards-promised-help-to-leave-afghanistan-made-it-to-uk

    Was that William's pal that made it.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,103
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment.

    Other than that, great post.
    "Take it easy, take it easy, take it nice and slow, that's no way to go, does your mother know?"

    That one rocks, and the lyrics are pretty edgy.
    That is also my favourite ABBA song (I.e. the one which I dislike the least.) I think it has a trumpet in, possibly, which is always a plus. Interestingly, one of the few with a male lead vocal.

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 556

    The kindest explanation of putting the bill on NI is that increasing Income Tax rates is such a massive taboo in the UK that the government can't countenance it. Fiscal drag on allowances is kind of acceptable because it's invisible, but that tree has already been shaken. National Insurance sounds worthier- that was the thinking behind Gordo the Great's increase of NI, wasn't it? But "The Prime Minister who increased the basic rate of income tax" sounds like one of those H.M. Bateman cartoons.

    But the unfortunate consequence of funding social care through NI is that it transfers money from the young to the old.

    It is an unfortunate consequence, isn't it?

    (Yes, this needs to happen, yes it will be expensive, yes we're all going to have to pay. And the longer we leave it, the worse the hole will get. But NI is a really bad way of raking the necessary money in.)

    No, it's obviously deliberate. Having made its mind up that it needed to put up taxes to pay these bills, there are many different routes the Government could've gone down. It picked one that is not paid by pensioners.

    Sometimes the most obvious explanation is the right one.

    What we haven't found out yet is who they plan to soak, and how, when the basic state pension gets uprated by 8% next Spring.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 30,757
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment.

    Other than that, great post.
    "Take it easy, take it easy, take it nice and slow, that's no way to go, does your mother know?"

    That one rocks, and the lyrics are pretty edgy.
    Not quite F R Leavis, now, are you?
    That ought to be a compliment to any sensible soul.
    LOL true
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,006
    Hope this is an opportunity for Labour. Arguably Tories are doing this at perfect electoral time... break promises/do the unpopular stuff well before an election.

    I'm coming round to the idea that Labour ought to offer lower tax rates for middle class to a) draw clear differential with the Tories b) in exchange for bringing in wealth taxation of some kind.

    "The Tories want to protect the already-wealthy, we want to make you wealthy"... not sure it quite works but something along those lines.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    Rubbish, the JCVI are second guessing the MHRA. I trust the regulator. Do you?
    Where do the JCVI "second guess" the MHRA?

    Both say "it's safe". So no "contradictions".

    They've got different jobs and they're both doing them.
    And yet the MHRA have approved it for 12-15 year olds whole the JCVI have said no. They are undermining the regulator's decision to try and force the government to give vaccines away. This the is their ultimate goal. They have said it many times. You're falling for it. They're forcing the government to "go against the science" and vaccinate anyway hoping that the government will back down and accept that 12-15 vaccines and a wide booster programme is now off the table so start giving away vaccine doses to other countries.
    I knew there was a run on toilet paper, but tin foil too?

    This advice is not based on assessments of vaccine availability, future supply or costs associated with delivery of a programme.

    If you think the JCVI are "liars" why not just say so?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 23,883
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment....
    And Dancing Queen with ancient ritual rites ?
    A sadistic piece of work by the group in that the intro, exuberant piano finger run plus opening melody bars, just compels you onto the dance floor, it's that good, but once you're up and going for it, and faced with actually dancing to the whole song, it becomes very hard to do, at least with any fluency or style, because it's not in truth much of a groove, it's quite lumpy and turgid, however by then it's too late, you're marooned out there, totally helpless, shuffling around and glancing longingly back at your seat for what is rather a long three and a half minutes.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,016


    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    34m
    All credit to the members of the JCVI for not buckling under pressure from ministers, media and teaching unions. Instead they've looked at the EVIDENCE. This is what Following The Science actually means.

    One Day If she KEEPS on working hard Julia will be able to Follow BOTH The Science and The Rules Of Capitalisations.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    Rubbish, the JCVI are second guessing the MHRA. I trust the regulator. Do you?
    Where do the JCVI "second guess" the MHRA?

    Both say "it's safe". So no "contradictions".

    They've got different jobs and they're both doing them.
    And yet the MHRA have approved it for 12-15 year olds whole the JCVI have said no. They are undermining the regulator's decision to try and force the government to give vaccines away. This the is their ultimate goal. They have said it many times. You're falling for it. They're forcing the government to "go against the science" and vaccinate anyway hoping that the government will back down and accept that 12-15 vaccines and a wide booster programme is now off the table so start giving away vaccine doses to other countries.
    I knew there was a run on toilet paper, but tin foil too?

    This advice is not based on assessments of vaccine availability, future supply or costs associated with delivery of a programme.

    If you think the JCVI are "liars" why not just say so?
    The JCVI are liars.

    JCVI members have been Tweeting away saying we should give jabs to other nations, which is not their remit. Hence this farcical dissembling report.

    The evidence and the MHRA has said is that the vaccine is safe. The evidence as even the JCVI have had to admit is that the vaccine is effective and beneficial.

    Yet still despite it being safe and beneficial they've not recommended it. Its farcical.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 556
    rkrkrk said:

    Hope this is an opportunity for Labour. Arguably Tories are doing this at perfect electoral time... break promises/do the unpopular stuff well before an election.

    I'm coming round to the idea that Labour ought to offer lower tax rates for middle class to a) draw clear differential with the Tories b) in exchange for bringing in wealth taxation of some kind.

    "The Tories want to protect the already-wealthy, we want to make you wealthy"... not sure it quite works but something along those lines.

    The problem with that approach is that the prime target for wealth taxation is property, and going after people's houses is electoral death.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,006
    malcolmg said:

    Thread on increasing cases in England (31,726 vs 27,545 a week ago):

    We can be fairly sure this is no longer a Bank Holiday reporting delay.

    However, it may just be a blip.

    Two things suggest it’s not.

    Firstly, English schools started going back this week.

    The % of cases first diagnosed by LFD rose from 20% last week to 23% this week.....

    Second, cases in the 10-19 year age group are rising, now nearly at the 'Boardmasters peak' of 17 August.

    A very slight uptick in 5-9 year olds.

    Of note - cases in 40-49 and 50-59 year olds have been slowly and steadily increasing since early August...

    None of this is particularly surprising - it reflect case ascertainment rather than increased transmission - as pupils test to go back to school.

    However, these case numbers are higher than many of of would have liked going into the new school year.


    https://twitter.com/kallmemeg/status/1433812143464386577?s=20

    Highly likely it will follow Scotland and rise for 2-3 weeks
    Agreed. Suspect the 60k peak before the holidays will be surpassed easily.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 23,883
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    We need to find a way to tax wealth rather than income. If social care, or indeed anything, is funded by raising income tax or national insurance, people like me are denied the opportunity to contribute. This is not fair.

    Just write a fucking cheque to HMRC.
    Of course I will. Consider it done. But it needs formalizing and it needs legal force. We don't want social care in England to be reliant on private charity.
    Just write the fucking cheque.

    "People like me are denied the opportunity to contribute."

    No they are not.
    Swearing at me AND missing the point. Quite tiresome.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983
    I guess Christina's got some new fans:

    THREAD on Child Vax:
    Interviewed on @BBCNews about the JCVI decision not to vaccinate 12-15 year olds.

    This was my initial reaction - that it was out of step with most other similar countries. And that they do not seem to have considered long covid at all. 1/6


    https://twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1433824021976686601?s=20
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310

    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    And its not a JCVI decision but recommendation.

    Within the parameters they've been given its not unreasonable - and as they point out there may be other factors to consider beyond their remit which they have suggested the governments follow up - which they have done.
    You can dance on the head of a pin as much as you want, they are making this decision and forcing the government's hand. I mean their reasoning is ridiculous. Disruption caused by vaccinations at schools. It's laughable.
    In what way are they "forcing the government's hand"?

    They've pointed out the government's path past their recommendation.

    I'm not sure distributing Pfizer to 4,000 secondary schools is a trivial matter....
    More disruption than another year of bubbles and isolation? Really? It's a completely laughable decision and undermines their own stance that they aren't taking anything other than the science into account. They said they can't take disruption to education into account to approve it but here they are using it to justify not rolling it out.

    They're doing nothing more than trying to force the government into giving vaccines away instead of using them on what they view as marginal cases (12-15 year olds, boosters for 40-79 year olds).

    The scientists have once again been given a bit of power and now they're trying to use it to push their own political agendas. No one voted for them and yet a regulator approved vaccine has been taken away from children who will benefit from it and is available to them in the US.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,006
    pigeon said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Hope this is an opportunity for Labour. Arguably Tories are doing this at perfect electoral time... break promises/do the unpopular stuff well before an election.

    I'm coming round to the idea that Labour ought to offer lower tax rates for middle class to a) draw clear differential with the Tories b) in exchange for bringing in wealth taxation of some kind.

    "The Tories want to protect the already-wealthy, we want to make you wealthy"... not sure it quite works but something along those lines.

    The problem with that approach is that the prime target for wealth taxation is property, and going after people's houses is electoral death.
    Property wealth is 35% of total apparently... [not including public pensions].

    Feels like it must be possible to draw a line somewhere on property that would be acceptable to people... and as a bonus help counter an unhelpful impression that Labour is too London-centric.

    lhttps://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/totalwealthingreatbritain/april2016tomarch2018
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    Rubbish, the JCVI are second guessing the MHRA. I trust the regulator. Do you?
    Where do the JCVI "second guess" the MHRA?

    Both say "it's safe". So no "contradictions".

    They've got different jobs and they're both doing them.
    And yet the MHRA have approved it for 12-15 year olds whole the JCVI have said no. They are undermining the regulator's decision to try and force the government to give vaccines away. This the is their ultimate goal. They have said it many times. You're falling for it. They're forcing the government to "go against the science" and vaccinate anyway hoping that the government will back down and accept that 12-15 vaccines and a wide booster programme is now off the table so start giving away vaccine doses to other countries.
    I knew there was a run on toilet paper, but tin foil too?

    This advice is not based on assessments of vaccine availability, future supply or costs associated with delivery of a programme.

    If you think the JCVI are "liars" why not just say so?
    They are liars. Just as all of those dodgy scientists producing their dodgy models saying 1k dead per day after step 4 and 200k cases per day. Those scientists knew the data was wrong but still published it to push a political agenda of lockdown forever. We're once again living under a tyranny of unelected scientists. The MHRA has approved it, the JCVI have countermanded that decision and banned its use. Explain that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 30,757
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment....
    And Dancing Queen with ancient ritual rites ?
    A sadistic piece of work by the group in that the intro, exuberant piano finger run plus opening melody bars, just compels you onto the dance floor, it's that good, but once you're up and going for it, and faced with actually dancing to the whole song, it becomes very hard to do, at least with any fluency or style, because it's not in truth much of a groove, it's quite lumpy and turgid, however by then it's too late, you're marooned out there, totally helpless, shuffling around and glancing longingly back at your seat for what is rather a long three and a half minutes.
    "ABBA concealed the distress of their ditties with as many deliciously gaudy overdubs as the era's analog recording techniques could muster. Embedded in some of the brightest whiteness pop has ever known, ABBA invented their own blues, one that hasn't left the radio. They whispered private anguish in the midst of the party."

    https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/05/23/408844375/abbas-essential-influential-melancholy?t=1630685526530

    Not everyone gets it, tbf, so don't beat yourself up about it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment....
    And Dancing Queen with ancient ritual rites ?
    A sadistic piece of work by the group in that the intro, exuberant piano finger run plus opening melody bars, just compels you onto the dance floor, it's that good, but once you're up and going for it, and faced with actually dancing to the whole song, it becomes very hard to do, at least with any fluency or style, because it's not in truth much of a groove, it's quite lumpy and turgid, however by then it's too late, you're marooned out there, totally helpless, shuffling around and glancing longingly back at your seat for what is rather a long three and a half minutes.
    Or wallowing in the music.
    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/sep/08/40-years-abba-dancing-queen-people-just-surrender-to-it
    ...It’s a track even the Queen is supposedly fond of boogying to (Chris Evans claimed that she told him: “I always try to dance when this song comes on because I am the Queen and I like to dance”)....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    And its not a JCVI decision but recommendation.

    Within the parameters they've been given its not unreasonable - and as they point out there may be other factors to consider beyond their remit which they have suggested the governments follow up - which they have done.
    You can dance on the head of a pin as much as you want, they are making this decision and forcing the government's hand. I mean their reasoning is ridiculous. Disruption caused by vaccinations at schools. It's laughable.
    In what way are they "forcing the government's hand"?

    They've pointed out the government's path past their recommendation.

    I'm not sure distributing Pfizer to 4,000 secondary schools is a trivial matter....
    More disruption than another year of bubbles and isolation?
    Haven't bubbles been scrapped?
    https://twitter.com/kallmemeg/status/1433820723332714497?s=20
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    Test match intriguingly poised for @MaxPB .
    Hope it improves his mood (and lasts long enough for him to watch live).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,965

    I guess Christina's got some new fans:

    THREAD on Child Vax:
    Interviewed on @BBCNews about the JCVI decision not to vaccinate 12-15 year olds.

    This was my initial reaction - that it was out of step with most other similar countries. And that they do not seem to have considered long covid at all. 1/6


    https://twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1433824021976686601?s=20

    She's claiming 1 in 1000 children have had Long Covid for more than a year.

    Is that remotely correct?

    That means they must have caught covid in the first wave of Spring 2020. 1 in 1000 kids?

    Hmmm...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    And its not a JCVI decision but recommendation.

    Within the parameters they've been given its not unreasonable - and as they point out there may be other factors to consider beyond their remit which they have suggested the governments follow up - which they have done.
    You can dance on the head of a pin as much as you want, they are making this decision and forcing the government's hand. I mean their reasoning is ridiculous. Disruption caused by vaccinations at schools. It's laughable.
    In what way are they "forcing the government's hand"?

    They've pointed out the government's path past their recommendation.

    I'm not sure distributing Pfizer to 4,000 secondary schools is a trivial matter....
    More disruption than another year of bubbles and isolation?
    Haven't bubbles been scrapped?
    https://twitter.com/kallmemeg/status/1433820723332714497?s=20
    Lol as if that's going to happen. My mum works at a school and has been told to get ready for bubbles to be brought back in October, even that idiot Williamson has "not ruled out their reintroduction" or some weasel like phrase.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,103
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment....
    And Dancing Queen with ancient ritual rites ?
    A sadistic piece of work by the group in that the intro, exuberant piano finger run plus opening melody bars, just compels you onto the dance floor, it's that good, but once you're up and going for it, and faced with actually dancing to the whole song, it becomes very hard to do, at least with any fluency or style, because it's not in truth much of a groove, it's quite lumpy and turgid, however by then it's too late, you're marooned out there, totally helpless, shuffling around and glancing longingly back at your seat for what is rather a long three and a half minutes.
    Favourite of witless wedding DJs everywhere. You must be able to dance to it, because it's got the word 'dancing' in it. Except you can't.
    When our wedding DJ asked for a list if sings definitely not to play it consisted of this song and this song alone.
    We did basically give him a playsuit of 45 songs though. He didn't have too much room for manoeuvre.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 50,983
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yes, seems pretty balanced to me. I detect too much of the following on PB:

    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I agree with it), praise the government.
    When the government accepts the advice of the scientists (and I don't agree with it), blame the scientists.

    Advisors advise, government decide, surely. The JVCI has left it in the hands of government. If you don't like what government does, blame them. Stop bullying (independent) scientists.
    Rubbish, the JCVI are second guessing the MHRA. I trust the regulator. Do you?
    Where do the JCVI "second guess" the MHRA?

    Both say "it's safe". So no "contradictions".

    They've got different jobs and they're both doing them.
    And yet the MHRA have approved it for 12-15 year olds whole the JCVI have said no. They are undermining the regulator's decision to try and force the government to give vaccines away. This the is their ultimate goal. They have said it many times. You're falling for it. They're forcing the government to "go against the science" and vaccinate anyway hoping that the government will back down and accept that 12-15 vaccines and a wide booster programme is now off the table so start giving away vaccine doses to other countries.
    I knew there was a run on toilet paper, but tin foil too?

    This advice is not based on assessments of vaccine availability, future supply or costs associated with delivery of a programme.

    If you think the JCVI are "liars" why not just say so?
    The MHRA has approved it, the JCVI have countermanded that decision and banned its use. Explain that.
    I can't explain something that's simply not true.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-statement-september-2021-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-12-to-15-years/jcvi-statement-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-12-to-15-years-3-september-2021
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,965
    Did the BBC interview someone who agrees with the decision for balance?

    Or is it just that time of day when we get the Pagel Show on BBC?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,121
    Having been involved in several schools vaccination campaigns, although quite a long time ago now, I can’t see that actually doing it would take very much school time. Per class, anyway!
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,334
    Black swan upending?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 23,883
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Enough frivolity , I must away and do some productive stuff. Have to say I had a super haircut and shave at Turkish barber's today, some pleasant chit chat here , with wife playing ABBA in background. Time for a refreshment.

    The new album?
    There are two new songs (the ones that were recorded in time to go into the new show when it opens next year) but the album doesn't drop 'til November.
    Ah ok. I caught a snatch of one of them on the radio earlier. It sounded very like Abba. No 'late life' different sound a la Johnny Cash; no sombre meditations on mortality from Bjorn and Benny, full of soul and gravitas, delivered by the girls in voices coarsened with age, just some more smooth ballady pop. Thank god for that.
    Completely wrong. ABBA songs are precisely sombre meditations on mortality. They spring from the Swedish sagas and deal exactly with failure, death and disappointment.

    Other than that, great post.
    "Take it easy, take it easy, take it nice and slow, that's no way to go, does your mother know?"

    That one rocks, and the lyrics are pretty edgy.
    That is also my favourite ABBA song (I.e. the one which I dislike the least.) I think it has a trumpet in, possibly, which is always a plus. Interestingly, one of the few with a male lead vocal.
    Sounds like we might be close on this. I don't like Abba much. They're ok but no way am I going to get weak-kneed about them. They went from being a teeny bit underrated to massively overrated, this happening almost overnight around about 7 years ago. June 2014, something like that. But if I am listening to their stuff, and I don't mind if someone puts some on, then I'm always hoping "Mother" comes on, because that rocks, it really does. And you CAN dance to that one, unlike DQ.
This discussion has been closed.