At present it is (prior) residence, not natio0nality or (within the UK) origin within E, W, NI or Scotland, that counts in Scotland now. Residence always counted across the UK till London unilaterally cancelled payment of fees for the people resident in England, etc. As this is not based on nationality (sensu Scottish origin) it cannot be discrimination within the UK on that count (and I believe that one law case has already failed on that basis).
When the LDs reneged on fees, or were statesmanlike within the coalition, whichever it was, the Scots lost the money thanks to the Barnett consequentials, but decided to spend some of their pocket money from London to (1) maintain the existing system for Scottish residents, because they thought it the civilised/politic thing to do, and disagreed with the London decision (well, devolution does mean the ability to do things differently if deemed necessary).
This then raised the question (2) of the need to stop fees refugees from south of the border flooding out Scottish universities, which needed to be kept at least partly for Scottish-educated pupils because of the shorter sixth form and longer university degree in Scotland (it is harder for Scots pupils to begin a 3 year course in EWNI than it is for an EWNI pupil after a longer sixth form course to start at a Scottish uni). It is a genuine and serous worry. And at present it is taken care of by retaining the residency qualification, on which the Scots have changed nothing as far as I know. It is a bit rich for them to be blamed for that when it was not Edinburgh who made the changes.
What happens after indy is another matter but the case will be argued on pretty much that basis. And there's a lot more to indy than just one small issue, important as it is.
In any case we keep being told we'll vote no, and then we'll be dragged out of the EU a few years later ...
Thank you Carnyx, Fox is sensible enough to understand , unfortunately many of the frothers on here will take umbrage at it and cry foul. Will be interesting to see what Mr Putin's thoughts are on Dave's call for help re the referendum.
I appreciate that is why Engish students face such high fees in Scotland (My son looked at a course in Edinburgh, but the fees would have been £12 000 per year, so significantly more than his first choice University in England). The point though is that a Yes vote in the Indyref would change the position, as rUK students would become EU students.
Of course it is not just student fees that would vary across the border. If state pensions, elderly care and NHS access were more generous in Scotland (or rUK) then we may see cross border migration for this reason.
I have a soft spot for Perth myself, though would migrate further South for the winter. ;-)
That DM story is from a journal so well known for its balanced coverage of indy that it has to be censored for the Scottish edition, AND it comes (unusually explicitly, so credit to the DM for that) from a pair of Better Together academics - evidently reheated Scare of the Week (I have lost count of the number of times it has come round). And we all know how accurate BT and their chums in the media are about reporting anything to do with the EU.
I've recently had to explain the situation to an English university professor who was, entirely understandably, upset and angry at what he had been reading in the media (and it is something I have very strong feelings about, so I have toned down my original draft).
snip
This then raised the question (2) of the need to stop fees refugees from south of the border flooding out Scottish universities, which needed to be kept at least partly for Scottish-educated pupils because of the shorter sixth form and longer university degree in Scotland (it is harder for Scots pupils to begin a 3 year course in EWNI than it is for an EWNI pupil after a longer sixth form course to start at a Scottish uni). It is a genuine and serous worry. And at present it is taken care of by retaining the residency qualification, on which the Scots have changed nothing as far as I know. It is a bit rich for them to be blamed for that when it was not Edinburgh who made the changes.
What happens after indy is another matter but the case will be argued on pretty much that basis. And there's a lot more to indy than just one small issue, important as it is.
It is under two thousand, I see you are your usual pedantic pompous self.
Don't get stroppy because your argument fell apart. Distinguishing between "peanuts" and "thousands" isn't pedantry. Pedantry would be more like distinguishing between "thousands" and "just under two thousand".
Anyway, you're wrong. It's E1835 per year, so E7340 for a degree. It's pretty hard to thus justify Dutch students getting free entry to Scottish universities but English ones having to pay.
I'm aware of northern Irish parents, including those on the orange side of the fence, looking at getting Irish citizenship (to which they are entitled as of right) in order to get their children free university education in Scotland.
Fox, stick to the pertinent point , Scottish student can study in Romania for free whilst they are charged circa £9K to study in England. So you are telling me you cannot see fairness in the reciprocation of this principle. That it is fair for England to charge Scottish students a huge amount and yet expect Scotland to pay for all English students education. You seriously do not expect me to think that your are not intelligent enoug hto work out what is fair and proper given above circumstances. Can you name any other EU country that charges Scottish students for education.
Sorry Malcolm but you are utterly wrong on this. The issue is not whether other countries charge students - Scottish or otherwise - nor is it a matter of reciprocation. That is not the way the EU works. You can have different costs and charges in different countries. The important point under EU law is that within that country all EU citizens must be treated the same. So if education is free in Romania then Romanians may not charge Scottish (or other EU) students. If it costs 500 Euros a semester in Germany then that charge must be levied equally on German and other EU students. You cannot charge non Germans more as long as they are EU citizens.
The UK had a very strange internal arrangement because of devolution whereby it was possible for the Scots to charge English because they were part of the same state but not other EU citizens . If Scotland becomes independent that will end and you will no longer be allowed under EU law to chareg English students whilst not charging students from any other EU country.
Fox, stick to the pertinent point , Scottish student can study in Romania for free whilst they are charged circa £9K to study in England. So you are telling me you cannot see fairness in the reciprocation of this principle. That it is fair for England to charge Scottish students a huge amount and yet expect Scotland to pay for all English students education. You seriously do not expect me to think that your are not intelligent enoug hto work out what is fair and proper given above circumstances. Can you name any other EU country that charges Scottish students for education.
Sorry Malcolm but you are utterly wrong on this. The issue is not whether other countries charge students - Scottish or otherwise - nor is it a matter of reciprocation. That is not the way the EU works. You can have different costs and charges in different countries. The important point under EU law is that within that country all EU citizens must be treated the same. So if education is free in Romania then Romanians may not charge Scottish (or other EU) students. If it costs 500 Euros a semester in Germany then that charge must be levied equally on German and other EU students. You cannot charge non Germans more as long as they are EU citizens.
The UK had a very strange internal arrangement because of devolution whereby it was possible for the Scots to charge English because they were part of the same state but not other EU citizens . If Scotland becomes independent that will end and you will no longer be allowed under EU law to chareg English students whilst not charging students from any other EU country.
You may be right Richard but I am inclined to believe the Scottish Government rather than Westminster or the patsies promoting the latest "scare" story. Westminster is very well known for being less than economical with the truth.
"till London unilaterally cancelled payment of fees for the people resident in England"
By "London", you mean "the UK parliament via Scottish MPs overcoming the lack of votes in the rest of the country"?
Doh, he meant London, Westminster, where less than 10% of the votes are Scottish.
Fox, that is a physical impossibility, given the number of Scottish MPs. If you mean the Scottish labour MP's who should not be voting on English issues assisted the UK Labour MPs to get it through then I could agree.
On the point by @Socrates re Scottish MPs voting to impose fees on English residents - good question, much touted (often misleadingly), deserves a good answer.
The original imposition of tuition fees in 2004 was forced through by Scottish MPs - but Labour ones; the SNP and Scottish LD MPs voted against. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuition_fees_in_the_United_Kingdom (forgive me, can't find anything else in a hurry)
'Peter Duncan, the Conservatives' only Scottish MP, had abstained from the vote saying "This is a dark day for British democracy, and the actions of Scottish MPs are reprehensible.... The constitutionally cavalier actions of Scottish MPs undermine the devolution settlement and play into the hands of the separatists on both sides of the border.... ."'
But ...
1 I'm a Unionist MP. Of course I (usually) vote how London party HQ want. Do ursids defecate in Japanese hi-tech toilets?
2. Scottish MPs had every right to vote. Don't think for a moment that it didn't affect the Scots. We lost the money too. Barnett formula consequentials, remember? Those folk in Westminster just assumed the Scots would roll over and do what they wanted. Instead, we had to give something else up. I'm astounded that the SNP and Swinney have been able to be so efficient for so long given the inability to borrow a penny.
I'm not happy with the mess, either, but if people are so worried you'd think they'd give us indy just to get the chance of saving a little money on their weans' uni fees. It's true we may have to grit our teeth and pay up*. So? Worse things happen. As pointed out, those who come to the university are amongst our most welcome visitors and contributors as I know personally. The problem is whether Scottish (resident) bairns can get Scottish university places for free without being displaced to paying £9K/year across the border - and that must be resolved somehow.
I must say I find deplorable how some people - not thinking of posters here - seem so gleeful at the prospect of - effectively - looting the Scots' wealth even after independence. But this is a situation that arose solely because the London parliament chose to deprive their own English residents and their own taxpayers. And the Scots too - see below.
*dep, on court case - but will it happen before EWNI leaves the EU? As for the hypothetical student living in Berwick upon Tweed which someone mentioned (assuming it is that one and not Berwick in Sussex), the answer is not necessarily what one mght think, given the burgh's anomalous legal status and the results of the local newspaper's vote on whether to rejoin Scotland ... not that it was very scientific, admittedly.
Comments
Will be interesting to see what Mr Putin's thoughts are on Dave's call for help re the referendum.
Is this the last gin? The last tuktuk ride? The last confusingly pretty transsexual, before it all ends? pic.twitter.com/c6GXIosJA1":
twitter.com/thomasknox/status/422035984050442240/photo/1
Anyway, you're wrong. It's E1835 per year, so E7340 for a degree. It's pretty hard to thus justify Dutch students getting free entry to Scottish universities but English ones having to pay.
By "London", you mean "the UK parliament via Scottish MPs overcoming the lack of votes in the rest of the country"?
The UK had a very strange internal arrangement because of devolution whereby it was possible for the Scots to charge English because they were part of the same state but not other EU citizens . If Scotland becomes independent that will end and you will no longer be allowed under EU law to chareg English students whilst not charging students from any other EU country.
Westminster is very well known for being less than economical with the truth.
On the point by @Socrates re Scottish MPs voting to impose fees on English residents - good question, much touted (often misleadingly), deserves a good answer.
The fees increase vote in 2010 was voted against by the SNP and to be fair also by some LDs and Labour - http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/09/tuition-fees-higher-education.
The original imposition of tuition fees in 2004 was forced through by Scottish MPs - but Labour ones; the SNP and Scottish LD MPs voted against.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuition_fees_in_the_United_Kingdom (forgive me, can't find anything else in a hurry)
'Peter Duncan, the Conservatives' only Scottish MP, had abstained from the vote saying "This is a dark day for British democracy, and the actions of Scottish MPs are reprehensible.... The constitutionally cavalier actions of Scottish MPs undermine the devolution settlement and play into the hands of the separatists on both sides of the border.... ."'
But ...
1 I'm a Unionist MP. Of course I (usually) vote how London party HQ want. Do ursids defecate in Japanese hi-tech toilets?
2. Scottish MPs had every right to vote. Don't think for a moment that it didn't affect the Scots. We lost the money too. Barnett formula consequentials, remember? Those folk in Westminster just assumed the Scots would roll over and do what they wanted. Instead, we had to give something else up. I'm astounded that the SNP and Swinney have been able to be so efficient for so long given the inability to borrow a penny.
I'm not happy with the mess, either, but if people are so worried you'd think they'd give us indy just to get the chance of saving a little money on their weans' uni fees. It's true we may have to grit our teeth and pay up*. So? Worse things happen. As pointed out, those who come to the university are amongst our most welcome visitors and contributors as I know personally. The problem is whether Scottish (resident) bairns can get Scottish university places for free without being displaced to paying £9K/year across the border - and that must be resolved somehow.
I must say I find deplorable how some people - not thinking of posters here - seem so gleeful at the prospect of - effectively - looting the Scots' wealth even after independence. But this is a situation that arose solely because the London parliament chose to deprive their own English residents and their own taxpayers. And the Scots too - see below.
*dep, on court case - but will it happen before EWNI leaves the EU? As for the hypothetical student living in Berwick upon Tweed which someone mentioned (assuming it is that one and not Berwick in Sussex), the answer is not necessarily what one mght think, given the burgh's anomalous legal status and the results of the local newspaper's vote on whether to rejoin Scotland ... not that it was very scientific, admittedly.