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Labour has a much lower chance than 12% of winning a majority – politicalbetting.com

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  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,194

    If you want to improve the Brexit deal then that's fine.

    But then Brexit isn't done - and you claiming it was in 2019 was a lie. And you claiming that the deal would resolve Brexit was also a lie.

    The deal has not done either, NI remains completely unresolved and pretending that a deal you said was great is now needing to be changed less than a year later suggests total dishonesty when you say the old deal wasn't rubbish. You implied it was above.

    No!

    Johnson has got Brexit done, he said so. The deal was oven ready for the microwave, he said so. If Brexit needs renegotiation he must be a massive liar because he said it was done, and "done" doesn't mean Brexit needs renogiation.

    If Brexit isn't infact "done", the RedWall must be told!
    Brexit is done.

    Done does require renegotiation because politics never ends. But that's post-Brexit now.
    I's not easy negotiating with a liar and someone who won't stick to the rules.
    You mean like the EU agreeing to renegotiate CAP if we get rid of half of our rebate, only to then refuse to renegotiate CAP after we do so?

    You're right, it burns bridges. The EU's acted like that for years though and I don't see it changing any time soon, so them getting a taste of their own medicine is karmic justice.
    What are you talking about with the CAP? The agreement was 20% reduction as long as the reduction didn't go into the CAP. The money didn't go into the CAP. The CAP stayed the same in value and reduced in proportion to the full budget. You are no better than Johnson with his snide anti EU rubbish that he pedals.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,582

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones Rose
    @OwenJones84
    ·
    7h
    Labour have kicked out Ken Loach, Britain's greatest living film maker, whose films have moved and inspired millions, while readmitting Trevor Phillips.

    That tells you all you need to know about the state of the current Labour party.

    Ken Loach left Labour in the mid nineties, and only rejoined in 2016 as I understand, and in the meantime campaigned for a number of hard left and Trotskyist factions including Socialist Resistance and the Scargillite Socialist Labour Party.

    The idea that he is some cuddly heart and soul of Labour old member doesn't match his story arc very well. He looks more like a Trotskyite entryist.
    Is he even Britain's greatest living film maker?

    Nah, Nolan is
    Ridley Scott?
    Sam Mendes?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,541
    Gove being in an influential but not particularly visible role seems to be a better fit than anything else, given he genuinely does have ideas (unlike many Ministers) but is disruptive and publicly unpopular.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,362
    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,498

    If you want to improve the Brexit deal then that's fine.

    But then Brexit isn't done - and you claiming it was in 2019 was a lie. And you claiming that the deal would resolve Brexit was also a lie.

    The deal has not done either, NI remains completely unresolved and pretending that a deal you said was great is now needing to be changed less than a year later suggests total dishonesty when you say the old deal wasn't rubbish. You implied it was above.

    No!

    Johnson has got Brexit done, he said so. The deal was oven ready for the microwave, he said so. If Brexit needs renegotiation he must be a massive liar because he said it was done, and "done" doesn't mean Brexit needs renogiation.

    If Brexit isn't infact "done", the RedWall must be told!
    Brexit is done.

    Done does require renegotiation because politics never ends. But that's post-Brexit now.
    I's not easy negotiating with a liar and someone who won't stick to the rules.
    You mean like the EU agreeing to renegotiate CAP if we get rid of half of our rebate, only to then refuse to renegotiate CAP after we do so?

    You're right, it burns bridges. The EU's acted like that for years though and I don't see it changing any time soon, so them getting a taste of their own medicine is karmic justice.
    Acording to Wikipedia (which I accept is not exactly perfect, so I'd be happy if you could post a source which contradicts this), it was 20%, and "on condition that the funds did not contribute to CAP payments, were matched by contributions from other countries and were only for the new member states. Spending on the CAP remained fixed, as had previously been agreed. Overall, this reduced the proportion of the budget spent on the CAP"
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,362
    Aslan said:

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones Rose
    @OwenJones84
    ·
    7h
    Labour have kicked out Ken Loach, Britain's greatest living film maker, whose films have moved and inspired millions, while readmitting Trevor Phillips.

    That tells you all you need to know about the state of the current Labour party.

    Ken Loach left Labour in the mid nineties, and only rejoined in 2016 as I understand, and in the meantime campaigned for a number of hard left and Trotskyist factions including Socialist Resistance and the Scargillite Socialist Labour Party.

    The idea that he is some cuddly heart and soul of Labour old member doesn't match his story arc very well. He looks more like a Trotskyite entryist.
    Is he even Britain's greatest living film maker?

    Nah, Nolan is
    Ridley Scott?
    Sam Mendes?
    Danny Boyle?
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 253

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    "With all its might and hi-tech sophistication, the US has allowed itself to be beaten by medieval dogmatists on horseback."

    Rory Stewart

    I think we should just pay him a few billion and get him to sort it out. My guess is that he would mostly.
    He is unusually and impressively, genuinely connected with the region. He's also extremely articulate. It's such a shame that he was tossed aside..
    He chose to step aside. I rate him very highly. His specialist subject is Afghanistan, and I'd just let him try. Anything he wants in terms of funding. I'd guess not more than a 30% chance of success, but that's better than the current 0%.
    It should be noted that in Vietnam the US military machine was beaten effectively by a load of peasants on 1/2 bowl of rice a day and cheap rifles.
    This always amuses me

    This is obviously true that the advanced us military has been defeated by insurgents armed with fairly ancient weapons in vietnam, korea and in afghanistan. Yet people say the american second amendment is wrong because having guns in the hands of citizens of the us wont enable them to stand up to the us governement. I suggest they would do as well as the vietnames, koreans or afghani's
    The US won the Korean War, North Korea was forced back out of South Korea after the North Korean invasion of the South and South Korea remains independent today
    That’s an extremely one-sided interpretation of the Korean War. It would be more accurate to say the UN (not the US, forces from 16 nations were involved) was not defeated.
    Not defeated is not the same as won though
    That was my point.
    Ah sorry thought you were supporting the they won argument
    I don’t think anyone can claim they ‘won’ the Korean War, although that didn’t stop Mao, Syngman and Kim from trying to.

    The most succinct summary of the outcome I ever came across was John Farnham. ‘It cost 2 million [actually more like 3 million] lives to get exactly nowhere.’
    The West very definitely won the Korean War. Look at South Korea and North Korea now. The latter is disowned even by the Chinese. The former is an economic powerhouse and cultural superpower. Western values prevailed. And yay

    The West lost the Vietnam war. Tho Vietnam is now virulently capitalist in all but name, and Ho Chi Minh City now calls itself Saigon, once again, and looks more to Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore than Beijing
    If in the second world war we had stopped hitler invading britain and left it at that would you claim britain won?

    Tough question. Also irrelevant
    If in the second world war we had stopped Hitler invading britain and left it at that we would very quickly have become a subject state of the Third Reich.

    C.J. Samson's alt-history novel Dominion paints a convincing picture of what that would have looked like.
    In Dominion Britain surrendered to the Nazis
    Do yo seriously think there was any other possible outcome of WW2 than either total defeat of Nazi Germany or British subjugation?
    At the risk of wading into a long running debate, rather than talking about winning or losing it's more helpful to talk about whether a combatant achieved it's strategic objectives or not. The Western forces in the Korean War undoubtedly did, they prevented the Korean peninsula from being overrun by communist forces. Equally the Americans didn't achieve their strategic objective in Vietnam, the country was immediately united under the North Koreans. The question of whether America achieved it's strategic objective in Afghanistan is trickier. On the one hand it does seem to have knocked it out as an asylum for international terrorists but on the other it has failed to leave a friendly government that will reliably ensure that it doesn't become one again.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,393

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I had an absolutely brilliant day today. I woke in my deeply soothing hotel at 10.30am. The perfect time to wake, as Burlington Bertie well knew

    I am staying here


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/greece/athens/hotels/the-modernist-athens-hotel/

    £100 a night. Insanely good value

    I had two strong coffees then set to some flint knapping. When the bulk was done I let the maids clean my room by retiring to the sun lashed roof terrace, where I had a prawn saganaki brunch, with some fine cold beers. With a view of the Acropolis.

    Then - thanks to the great advice of PB - I took a €4 Uber (which arrived in 2 minutes) from my hotel to the National Archaeological Museum. Took 6 minutes. Athens is empty. No queues.

    There I saw the Antikythera Mechanism, the most startling and provoking scientific artifact I have ever encountered in my life. No exaggeration. And I also saw the great hoards of Mycenaean gold unearthed by Schliemann. So I learned that noble Mycenaens would bury their dead babies in clothes of pure gold. Exquisitely sad yet somehow enriching

    Then I had a fucking big jug of ouzo in the museum gardens. Got another Uber home (4 minutes). I worked out on a weird wooden modernist peloton. Showered. Went to buy fine Cretan wine. Had a chat with locals.

    Then I ate ‘freakfish with seasonal greens’ in a streetside solonaki taverna under the plane trees - no idea what it was. But yummy. Also ‘soft Arcadian feta’. And then I argued with you guys about Vietnam.

    Now I lie abed, with Venus conspicuous overhead. Of such days is happiness made

    I think you'll find that's Jupiter but don't let that spoil your lovely day - sounds divine either way.

    A very fine day here in Dorset too, plenty of sunshine. Topped the wild flower meadow then watched Man U wallop Leeds. Caprese salad (inspired by @Leon) followed by fish pie washed down with a nice white Rioja. Happy days.
    Indeed. If there is one upside to a deadly global plague, it is this: learn to live in the moment. Tomorrow might not arrive.

    I’ve always tried to live by this sensible rule but of late I take it much more seriously. We aren’t here forever. In fact, we’re only here for 80 summers or so, and of those we’re only capable, mobile, sentient and adult for about 50. It’s absolutely nothing. It’s a blink. I know this is all cliche but sometimes we ignore truths because they sound cliched.

    Covid-19 has made me appreciate al fresco ‘freak fish with boiled seasonal greens’ in a mildly boring but pleasant Athenian Neighborhood like never before

    Tomorrow, the Parthenon
    Go early or late to avoid the crowds and heat, I would recommend.
    Athens is empty. There are no queues
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,490

    https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    And this is where the rhetoric against refugees ends, with people dying. Bravo BoJo

    Indeed. It will be very hard to deny any Afghan claim to asylum, and impossible to deport them if they are turned down.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,541

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    To the extent I was ever aware of him it was in the context of his politics, and the impression that anything he made would very much be about pushing that politics (which is ok, not all art is meant to be subtle, or have mass appeal), though I don't know if that is the case with his films in reality (he's made quite a few, so I presume not).

    I recall I, Daniel Blake seemed to be positively received by critics and got attention, but I couldn't name any others.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,194
    CatMan said:

    If you want to improve the Brexit deal then that's fine.

    But then Brexit isn't done - and you claiming it was in 2019 was a lie. And you claiming that the deal would resolve Brexit was also a lie.

    The deal has not done either, NI remains completely unresolved and pretending that a deal you said was great is now needing to be changed less than a year later suggests total dishonesty when you say the old deal wasn't rubbish. You implied it was above.

    No!

    Johnson has got Brexit done, he said so. The deal was oven ready for the microwave, he said so. If Brexit needs renegotiation he must be a massive liar because he said it was done, and "done" doesn't mean Brexit needs renogiation.

    If Brexit isn't infact "done", the RedWall must be told!
    Brexit is done.

    Done does require renegotiation because politics never ends. But that's post-Brexit now.
    I's not easy negotiating with a liar and someone who won't stick to the rules.
    You mean like the EU agreeing to renegotiate CAP if we get rid of half of our rebate, only to then refuse to renegotiate CAP after we do so?

    You're right, it burns bridges. The EU's acted like that for years though and I don't see it changing any time soon, so them getting a taste of their own medicine is karmic justice.
    Acording to Wikipedia (which I accept is not exactly perfect, so I'd be happy if you could post a source which contradicts this), it was 20%, and "on condition that the funds did not contribute to CAP payments, were matched by contributions from other countries and were only for the new member states. Spending on the CAP remained fixed, as had previously been agreed. Overall, this reduced the proportion of the budget spent on the CAP"
    as i said earlier...

    :)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,393

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is a minor masterpiece
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,423
    Did you also think that before 2016, or is it just since he threw his toys out the pram and started attacking his own party on an issue where you happen to agree with him?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,362
    Leon said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is a minor masterpiece
    Aware of it of course... just never got around to watching it.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,194

    https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    And this is where the rhetoric against refugees ends, with people dying. Bravo BoJo

    So much for the honourable Conservative government!!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,490

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,541
    edited August 2021
    His prodigious intellect may have been better employed than making himself feel better with arcane procedural tactics which did nothing but cause delay. He's not responsible for the choices other MPs made in response to his cohort, but he certainly contributed to the situation which others were then able to exploit.
  • Endillion said:

    Did you also think that before 2016, or is it just since he threw his toys out the pram and started attacking his own party on an issue where you happen to agree with him?
    I did. Whilst I didn't agree with his positions, he had a consistent ideology that I respected and understood. Same for Rory Stewart.

    I even greatly respect Thatcher, despite disagreeing with much of what she did.

    That Tory Party is dead now, ideology has gone
  • kle4 said:

    His prodigious intellect may have been better employed than making himself feel better with arcane procedural tactics which did nothing but cause delay. He's not responsible for the choices other MPs made in response to his cohort, but he certainly contributed to the situation which others were then able to exploit.
    I very much agree, in hindsight. But I still feel it a great loss that he has gone
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 54,891
    SNP TOPS POLL!

    Poll of major parties accepting funds from the public purse, that is:



    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/political-party-donations-and-loans-published-q1-2021
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,490
    edited August 2021

    Leon said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is a minor masterpiece
    Aware of it of course... just never got around to watching it.
    Ken Loach's Star Wars will give you a flavour of it.

    https://youtu.be/gSSFNhF4HSk
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,412
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I had an absolutely brilliant day today. I woke in my deeply soothing hotel at 10.30am. The perfect time to wake, as Burlington Bertie well knew

    I am staying here


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/greece/athens/hotels/the-modernist-athens-hotel/

    £100 a night. Insanely good value

    I had two strong coffees then set to some flint knapping. When the bulk was done I let the maids clean my room by retiring to the sun lashed roof terrace, where I had a prawn saganaki brunch, with some fine cold beers. With a view of the Acropolis.

    Then - thanks to the great advice of PB - I took a €4 Uber (which arrived in 2 minutes) from my hotel to the National Archaeological Museum. Took 6 minutes. Athens is empty. No queues.

    There I saw the Antikythera Mechanism, the most startling and provoking scientific artifact I have ever encountered in my life. No exaggeration. And I also saw the great hoards of Mycenaean gold unearthed by Schliemann. So I learned that noble Mycenaens would bury their dead babies in clothes of pure gold. Exquisitely sad yet somehow enriching

    Then I had a fucking big jug of ouzo in the museum gardens. Got another Uber home (4 minutes). I worked out on a weird wooden modernist peloton. Showered. Went to buy fine Cretan wine. Had a chat with locals.

    Then I ate ‘freakfish with seasonal greens’ in a streetside solonaki taverna under the plane trees - no idea what it was. But yummy. Also ‘soft Arcadian feta’. And then I argued with you guys about Vietnam.

    Now I lie abed, with Venus conspicuous overhead. Of such days is happiness made

    I think you'll find that's Jupiter but don't let that spoil your lovely day - sounds divine either way.

    A very fine day here in Dorset too, plenty of sunshine. Topped the wild flower meadow then watched Man U wallop Leeds. Caprese salad (inspired by @Leon) followed by fish pie washed down with a nice white Rioja. Happy days.
    Indeed. If there is one upside to a deadly global plague, it is this: learn to live in the moment. Tomorrow might not arrive.

    I’ve always tried to live by this sensible rule but of late I take it much more seriously. We aren’t here forever. In fact, we’re only here for 80 summers or so, and of those we’re only capable, mobile, sentient and adult for about 50. It’s absolutely nothing. It’s a blink. I know this is all cliche but sometimes we ignore truths because they sound cliched.

    Covid-19 has made me appreciate al fresco ‘freak fish with boiled seasonal greens’ in a mildly boring but pleasant Athenian Neighborhood like never before

    Tomorrow, the Parthenon
    Go early or late to avoid the crowds and heat, I would recommend.
    Athens is empty. There are no queues
    I think the forest fires may have put off another tranche of people after Covid. Bad news for the economy.

    On the Parthenon, it's best to avoid the heat, all the same. Athens has a heat-dome effect that can make the Parthenon at midday a punishing experience. It can be a much gentler experience in the morning and evening, if my past trips are anything to go by, and you sometimes get a beautiful interplay of shadows and light on the columns, too.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,541
    edited August 2021

    SNP TOPS POLL!

    Poll of major parties accepting funds from the public purse, that is:

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/political-party-donations-and-loans-published-q1-2021

    Speaking of the Electoral Commission, I see the Northern Independence Party is now registered, having been unable to list their candidate as such in the Hartlepool by-election due to a lack of such registration at the time. Their leader is a Philip Proudfoot, which I am positive is a Hobbit name.

    Other recent additions are the 'Our Precious World Party' and 'Keep Equality Safe Party' (sorry everyone, both England only), and the 'Scottish Eco-Devolutionist Party'. I'm not sure what 'Eco-Devolution' might be, since the hyphen suggests it is a specific kind of devolution, not merely that they are interested in Ecological issues.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 49,776
    Foxy said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
    Cathy come home changed uk policy and started Shelter charity.

    But the issue for Starmer isn't whether he makes good or even important films.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,423
    edited August 2021

    Endillion said:

    Did you also think that before 2016, or is it just since he threw his toys out the pram and started attacking his own party on an issue where you happen to agree with him?
    I did. Whilst I didn't agree with his positions, he had a consistent ideology that I respected and understood. Same for Rory Stewart.

    I even greatly respect Thatcher, despite disagreeing with much of what she did.

    That Tory Party is dead now, ideology has gone
    Oh, come off it. He's an independently wealthy, privately-educated member of the British upper classes with a degree from Oxbridge. He abstained on gay marriage and has had repeated pops at minority migrant communities over the years. He's everything that even moderate Labour supporters detest about Conservative governments.

    Based on your general posting history, I can just about believe you knew who he was before a few years ago, but I absolutely do not buy you had any particular admiration for him.
  • Leon said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is a minor masterpiece
    Aware of it of course... just never got around to watching it.
    You should.

    Here's a couple of tasters:

    The caning scene

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZB0i0NzOe0

    and the LOL football match:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc47vDh1xH0
  • Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Did you also think that before 2016, or is it just since he threw his toys out the pram and started attacking his own party on an issue where you happen to agree with him?
    I did. Whilst I didn't agree with his positions, he had a consistent ideology that I respected and understood. Same for Rory Stewart.

    I even greatly respect Thatcher, despite disagreeing with much of what she did.

    That Tory Party is dead now, ideology has gone
    Oh, come off it. He's an independently wealthy, privately-educated member of the British upper classes with a degree from Oxbridge. He abstained on gay marriage and has had repeated pops at minority migrant communities over the years. He's everything that even moderate Labour supporters detest about Conservative governments.

    Based on your general posting history, I can just about believe you knew who he was before a few years ago, but I absolutely do not buy you had any particular admiration for him.
    Alrighty, each to their own my friend.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,458
    Leon said:

    I had an absolutely brilliant day today. I woke in my deeply soothing hotel at 10.30am. The perfect time to wake, as Burlington Bertie well knew

    I am staying here


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/greece/athens/hotels/the-modernist-athens-hotel/

    £100 a night. Insanely good value

    I had two strong coffees then set to some flint knapping. When the bulk was done I let the maids clean my room by retiring to the sun lashed roof terrace, where I had a prawn saganaki brunch, with some fine cold beers. With a view of the Acropolis.

    Then - thanks to the great advice of PB - I took a €4 Uber (which arrived in 2 minutes) from my hotel to the National Archaeological Museum. Took 6 minutes. Athens is empty. No queues.

    There I saw the Antikythera Mechanism, the most startling and provoking scientific artifact I have ever encountered in my life. No exaggeration. And I also saw the great hoards of Mycenaean gold unearthed by Schliemann. So I learned that noble Mycenaens would bury their dead babies in clothes of pure gold. Exquisitely sad yet somehow enriching

    Then I had a fucking big jug of ouzo in the museum gardens. Got another Uber home (4 minutes). I worked out on a weird wooden modernist peloton. Showered. Went to buy fine Cretan wine. Had a chat with locals.

    Then I ate ‘freakfish with seasonal greens’ in a streetside solonaki taverna under the plane trees - no idea what it was. But yummy. Also ‘soft Arcadian feta’. And then I argued with you guys about Vietnam.

    Now I lie abed, with Venus conspicuous overhead. Of such days is happiness made

    Cheaper than the Kings Cross Travelodge.
  • Afghanistan is turning into a proper mess but I am afraid it is not an issue I am well versed on, can one of the experts tell me what we should be doing
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,121
    Christ a Brexit thread
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,584
    Foxy said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
    So is I, Daniel Blake. None of this lets Loach off for his Corbynista tomfoolery though.
  • Foxy said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
    So is I, Daniel Blake. None of this lets Loach off for his Corbynista tomfoolery though.
    Just call him what he is Pete, an anti-Semite
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,541

    Afghanistan is turning into a proper mess but I am afraid it is not an issue I am well versed on, can one of the experts tell me what we should be doing

    No expert here, but I don't think that will help. 'Expert' opinion seems to range from occuping the place permanently with large numbers of troops, retain a moderate force permanently to ensure the government could keep a grip on things at least, or accept it as a lost cause and make disapproving noises at the Taliban, with the occasional drone in the mix.

    At least two of those would now seemingly require re-invasion, so look like reaching the last of the 4 stage strategy (ie Nothing is going to happen, It will happen but we should do nothing, It will happen but we can do nothing, We might have done something but it is too late now)

  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,498
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Did you also think that before 2016, or is it just since he threw his toys out the pram and started attacking his own party on an issue where you happen to agree with him?
    I did. Whilst I didn't agree with his positions, he had a consistent ideology that I respected and understood. Same for Rory Stewart.

    I even greatly respect Thatcher, despite disagreeing with much of what she did.

    That Tory Party is dead now, ideology has gone
    Oh, come off it. He's an independently wealthy, privately-educated member of the British upper classes with a degree from Oxbridge. He abstained on gay marriage and has had repeated pops at minority migrant communities over the years. He's everything that even moderate Labour supporters detest about Conservative governments.

    Based on your general posting history, I can just about believe you knew who he was before a few years ago, but I absolutely do not buy you had any particular admiration for him.
    Acording to theyworkforyou.com he mostly voted for Gay Marriage (altough was absent for some votes, I'm not sure if that's the same as Abstaining)

    https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24964/rory_stewart/penrith_and_the_border/divisions?policy=6686
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,584

    SNP TOPS POLL!

    Poll of major parties accepting funds from the public purse, that is:



    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/political-party-donations-and-loans-published-q1-2021

    That is how all UK political funding should be applied.

    There is no such thing as a free lunch. No cash for favours from Nippy!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 54,891

    SNP TOPS POLL!

    Poll of major parties accepting funds from the public purse, that is:



    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/political-party-donations-and-loans-published-q1-2021

    That is how all UK political funding should be applied.

    There is no such thing as a free lunch. No cash for favours from Nippy!
    Just ferries. Which have yet to sail......
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,541
    Loach could always rejoin the most hilariously mistitled of all the fringe left parties - Left Unity*

    * The wiki has a rather hilarious quote from the Communist Party of GB PCC [not to be confused with the Communist Part of Britain, the former Communist Party of Great Britain or the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist Leninist)] criticising Left Unity and that it had 'condemned itself to permanent irrelevance'.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,664

    Foxy said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
    So is I, Daniel Blake. None of this lets Loach off for his Corbynista tomfoolery though.
    Just call him what he is Pete, an anti-Semite
    https://images.app.goo.gl/nZ9usoVHLV2r38kbA
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,652
    Wow, that Sunday Times article on the WHO is quite damning.

    Even for me as someone who has been highly sceptical over the whole China/WHO agenda it's quite shocking to see all of China's malign influence laid out on paper.

    Anyone who still denies the lab leak theory needs to get some perspective. China has engaged in a decade long coverup of how it handles infectious diseases.

    Western nations need to act now and take back control(!) of the WHO. Boot China out of it if necessary.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 33,029

    SNP TOPS POLL!

    Poll of major parties accepting funds from the public purse, that is:



    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/political-party-donations-and-loans-published-q1-2021

    That is how all UK political funding should be applied.

    There is no such thing as a free lunch. No cash for favours from Nippy!
    The missing column is the one with donations converted from Rubles.
  • Foxy said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
    So is I, Daniel Blake. None of this lets Loach off for his Corbynista tomfoolery though.
    Just call him what he is Pete, an anti-Semite
    https://images.app.goo.gl/nZ9usoVHLV2r38kbA
    So you don't think he's anti-Semitic? Do you know much about his work, including when he said the Holocaust is up for debate?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,850
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Did you also think that before 2016, or is it just since he threw his toys out the pram and started attacking his own party on an issue where you happen to agree with him?
    I did. Whilst I didn't agree with his positions, he had a consistent ideology that I respected and understood. Same for Rory Stewart.

    I even greatly respect Thatcher, despite disagreeing with much of what she did.

    That Tory Party is dead now, ideology has gone
    Oh, come off it. He's an independently wealthy, privately-educated member of the British upper classes with a degree from Oxbridge. He abstained on gay marriage and has had repeated pops at minority migrant communities over the years. He's everything that even moderate Labour supporters detest about Conservative governments.

    Based on your general posting history, I can just about believe you knew who he was before a few years ago, but I absolutely do not buy you had any particular admiration for him.
    Plenty of traditional working class Labour voters opposed gay marriage, especially Catholic ones.

    Just many of them are now voting for Boris
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,850
    edited August 2021

    Afghanistan is turning into a proper mess but I am afraid it is not an issue I am well versed on, can one of the experts tell me what we should be doing

    Not withdrawing in a pathetic fashion like Biden and Harris and abandoning the country to the Taliban and Al Qaeda again.

    Biden is undoubtedly the weakest US President of my lifetime
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,141
    It's amazing how bitter the debate about covid is becoming now that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Prof Francois Balloux is being accused of "amplifying a key rightwing talking point" for stating that we need to learn to live with the virus:

    @BallouxFrancois
    The fact that for some the primary objective doesn't seem to be to deal with the pandemic the best we can, but to ensure we may not be considered 'right-wing', 'left-wing' or whatnot, is a recipe for disaster. Performative activism and infectious disease epidemiology don't mesh.


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1426654681783230469
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 2,120
    edited August 2021
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Did you also think that before 2016, or is it just since he threw his toys out the pram and started attacking his own party on an issue where you happen to agree with him?
    I did. Whilst I didn't agree with his positions, he had a consistent ideology that I respected and understood. Same for Rory Stewart.

    I even greatly respect Thatcher, despite disagreeing with much of what she did.

    That Tory Party is dead now, ideology has gone
    Oh, come off it. He's an independently wealthy, privately-educated member of the British upper classes with a degree from Oxbridge. He abstained on gay marriage and has had repeated pops at minority migrant communities over the years. He's everything that even moderate Labour supporters detest about Conservative governments.

    Based on your general posting history, I can just about believe you knew who he was before a few years ago, but I absolutely do not buy you had any particular admiration for him.
    Well, I personally don't buy Grieve and co's claim to be the custodians of sensible government. To me, it is all a load of nonsense. Grieve was part of a philistine gang who in a period of 6 years ruined large parts of the British state. Every day I am astounded as to how many otherwise thoughtful and intelligent people continue to endorse Cameron's government. The posh boy veneer is all window dressing and people still fall for it. These people basically ruined Britain. Boris is OK in comparison.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,584

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    "With all its might and hi-tech sophistication, the US has allowed itself to be beaten by medieval dogmatists on horseback."

    Rory Stewart

    I think we should just pay him a few billion and get him to sort it out. My guess is that he would mostly.
    He is unusually and impressively, genuinely connected with the region. He's also extremely articulate. It's such a shame that he was tossed aside..
    He chose to step aside. I rate him very highly. His specialist subject is Afghanistan, and I'd just let him try. Anything he wants in terms of funding. I'd guess not more than a 30% chance of success, but that's better than the current 0%.
    It should be noted that in Vietnam the US military machine was beaten effectively by a load of peasants on 1/2 bowl of rice a day and cheap rifles.
    This always amuses me

    This is obviously true that the advanced us military has been defeated by insurgents armed with fairly ancient weapons in vietnam, korea and in afghanistan. Yet people say the american second amendment is wrong because having guns in the hands of citizens of the us wont enable them to stand up to the us governement. I suggest they would do as well as the vietnames, koreans or afghani's
    The US won the Korean War, North Korea was forced back out of South Korea after the North Korean invasion of the South and South Korea remains independent today
    That’s an extremely one-sided interpretation of the Korean War. It would be more accurate to say the UN (not the US, forces from 16 nations were involved) was not defeated.
    Not defeated is not the same as won though
    That was my point.
    Ah sorry thought you were supporting the they won argument
    I don’t think anyone can claim they ‘won’ the Korean War, although that didn’t stop Mao, Syngman and Kim from trying to.

    The most succinct summary of the outcome I ever came across was John Farnham. ‘It cost 2 million [actually more like 3 million] lives to get exactly nowhere.’
    The West very definitely won the Korean War. Look at South Korea and North Korea now. The latter is disowned even by the Chinese. The former is an economic powerhouse and cultural superpower. Western values prevailed. And yay

    The West lost the Vietnam war. Tho Vietnam is now virulently capitalist in all but name, and Ho Chi Minh City now calls itself Saigon, once again, and looks more to Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore than Beijing
    South Korea was a dictatorship too until the mid Eighties, and North Korea had a higher GDP per capita into the late 1960s.

    The Korean War ended almost exactly where it began, with the Chinese having pushed the UN forces back to the start line from the Yalu River. It was a costly stalemate.

    Obviously the Vietcong and NLF won the Vietnam war. Americans like to pretend they were not defeated in the field, just by a stab in the back at home, with more than a whiff of a1920s Germany blame game. It is the new Noble Cause narrative, and in popular culture the American forces treated like martyred victims. The reality is that they routinely killed civilians, destroyed villages, made people destitute and homeless. Is it any wonder that they didn't win over the locals?

    My father's cousin was a Colonel there with the Australian Army. He was appalled at the conduct of the war, and quit the army in 1970 very disillusioned. He later developed a painful neuropathy that made his life a misery, thought to be due to exposure to Agent Orange.
    Just because war can be brutal does not mean the US were defeated on the battlefield. Again they went to war to prevent North Vietnam and the Vietcong taking over South Vietnam. That only occurred after the US forces had withdrawn
    Your support of the US right wing "Noble Cause" narrative of being undefeated on the battlefield is simply not true.

    America retreated from South Vietnam and Cambodia because the Vietnamese were inflicting too many casualties on them. That is what constitutes a defeat.
    No it is what constitutes losing a PR war and withdrawing your troops from the fight, not being defeated in battle
    Think of the American/Vietnam War as a PB argument. As long as you continue the fight, no amount of logical defeat matters, if you still participate, while your opponent gives up and goes home, you are the victor.

    The simplist, albeit extremely costly in terms of casualties, way to win a war is to keep fighting despite defeat. The Soviets did this in 1941-42, Mao did it on his long march, the Vietcong did it and so has the Taliban.
    An interesting point, not without merit. Just keep fighting until everyone gets so bored and weary they say Oh fuck it, here you go. Yes that happens, for sure. ‘The best lack all conviction’

    However I point you to the recent counter-example of the Remoaners. Such as our own Scott. Their extreme mulish stupidity and endless feuding grievance is not just pointless, it is counter-productive. They have already kicked away the chance of a compromise they might have tolerated, they are tarnishing their brand forever

    Rejoin = Nutters
    Nothing is forever.
    Explain that to @CorrectHorseBattery

    He thinks that if your dinner today is done, then you can't have dinner tomorrow. He doesn't understand that tomorrow's dinner will be a new dinner and not today's dinner.
    What a stupid analogy.
    Its not my analogy it was @CorrectHorseBattery that chose to bring up dinner as an analogy.

    You have to wonder why @CorrectHorseBattery bothered eating dinner today, was he not done with his dinner back in 2019?

    Or maybe just maybe its possible to have a new dinner every day, even though prior dinners were done? Just as its possible for new political discussions to be occuring today even though Brexit was done.
    That sounds like Brexit Ground Hog Day,.An oven-ready Brexit "done" deal everyday, ad infinitum.

    Maybe on one of those days Boris can get a deal without a border in the Irish Sea. But I suppose by the nature of Ground Hog Day, the border will be back in the Irish Sea the following day.
  • HYUFD said:

    Afghanistan is turning into a proper mess but I am afraid it is not an issue I am well versed on, can one of the experts tell me what we should be doing

    Not withdrawing in a pathetic fashion like Biden and Harris and abandoning the country to the Taliban and Al Qaeda again.

    Biden is undoubtedly the weakest US President of my lifetime
    Boris is also withdrawing his troops.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,582
    HYUFD said:

    Afghanistan is turning into a proper mess but I am afraid it is not an issue I am well versed on, can one of the experts tell me what we should be doing

    Not withdrawing in a pathetic fashion like Biden and Harris and abandoning the country to the Taliban and Al Qaeda again.

    Biden is undoubtedly the weakest US President of my lifetime
    What drivel. The political easy thing would be to continue to punt the issue to the next president.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,584

    HYUFD said:

    Afghanistan is turning into a proper mess but I am afraid it is not an issue I am well versed on, can one of the experts tell me what we should be doing

    Not withdrawing in a pathetic fashion like Biden and Harris and abandoning the country to the Taliban and Al Qaeda again.

    Biden is undoubtedly the weakest US President of my lifetime
    Boris is also withdrawing his troops.
    I suspect he needs them for HYUFD's assault on Scotland.
  • Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,664

    Foxy said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
    So is I, Daniel Blake. None of this lets Loach off for his Corbynista tomfoolery though.
    Just call him what he is Pete, an anti-Semite
    https://images.app.goo.gl/nZ9usoVHLV2r38kbA
    So you don't think he's anti-Semitic? Do you know much about his work, including when he said the Holocaust is up for debate?
    Show me where he said that.

    I do not think he is antisemitic.

    I think he is a fierce critic of Israel policy on Palestine though.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,850
    edited August 2021

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    He is right. if so

    Great words from Senator Mitt Romney tonight 'I understand but disagree with those who felt we should leave Afghanistan; I cannot understand why it has been done with such tragic human cost; without an effective strategy to defend our partners; and with inestimable shock to our nation’s credibility, reliability, and honor.'
    https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1426658988091973633?s=20
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,578
    On topic. Punters make it a 56% chance that the Tories will lose the next election. That has cheered me up.

    Well, actually I didn't need cheering up. I had a pleasant day visiting an art and craft fair. Mind, it was like a cattle market. No, it WAS a cattle market - Skipton auction market to be precise. There are a lot of very talented people.

    Very low levels of mask wearing. Slightly higher in the shops in Skipton, but I think levels are declining week by week.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,584

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    That ship has sailed

    I would question Biden's moral compass for the withdrawal, but I suspect it will play well in the medium term in the US.

    Likewise I can't see Johnson's lead over Labour collapsing as Kabul falls.
  • Foxy said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
    So is I, Daniel Blake. None of this lets Loach off for his Corbynista tomfoolery though.
    Just call him what he is Pete, an anti-Semite
    https://images.app.goo.gl/nZ9usoVHLV2r38kbA
    So you don't think he's anti-Semitic? Do you know much about his work, including when he said the Holocaust is up for debate?
    Show me where he said that.

    I do not think he is antisemitic.

    I think he is a fierce critic of Israel policy on Palestine though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anRhI2xezgA

    Here you are.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,850
    edited August 2021
    Aslan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Afghanistan is turning into a proper mess but I am afraid it is not an issue I am well versed on, can one of the experts tell me what we should be doing

    Not withdrawing in a pathetic fashion like Biden and Harris and abandoning the country to the Taliban and Al Qaeda again.

    Biden is undoubtedly the weakest US President of my lifetime
    What drivel. The political easy thing would be to continue to punt the issue to the next president.
    No, the politically easy decision is to cut and run as Biden is doing, not stay the course.

    The actions of this administration over Afghanistan are pathetic and if it leads to 9/11 2 he and Harris deserve to be trounced in 2024
  • https://youtu.be/anRhI2xezgA?t=72

    I have the timecode here. Loach is undoubtedly anti-Semitic and he should have been kicked out after this was on
  • CatMan said:

    If you want to improve the Brexit deal then that's fine.

    But then Brexit isn't done - and you claiming it was in 2019 was a lie. And you claiming that the deal would resolve Brexit was also a lie.

    The deal has not done either, NI remains completely unresolved and pretending that a deal you said was great is now needing to be changed less than a year later suggests total dishonesty when you say the old deal wasn't rubbish. You implied it was above.

    No!

    Johnson has got Brexit done, he said so. The deal was oven ready for the microwave, he said so. If Brexit needs renegotiation he must be a massive liar because he said it was done, and "done" doesn't mean Brexit needs renogiation.

    If Brexit isn't infact "done", the RedWall must be told!
    Brexit is done.

    Done does require renegotiation because politics never ends. But that's post-Brexit now.
    I's not easy negotiating with a liar and someone who won't stick to the rules.
    You mean like the EU agreeing to renegotiate CAP if we get rid of half of our rebate, only to then refuse to renegotiate CAP after we do so?

    You're right, it burns bridges. The EU's acted like that for years though and I don't see it changing any time soon, so them getting a taste of their own medicine is karmic justice.
    Acording to Wikipedia (which I accept is not exactly perfect, so I'd be happy if you could post a source which contradicts this), it was 20%, and "on condition that the funds did not contribute to CAP payments, were matched by contributions from other countries and were only for the new member states. Spending on the CAP remained fixed, as had previously been agreed. Overall, this reduced the proportion of the budget spent on the CAP"
    From 2005 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4537912.stm

    "The European Commission is asked to hold a "full and wide-ranging" review of all EU spending, including the Common Agricultural Policy and the British rebate, and to draw up a report in 2008/9. "

    This promised review of the CAP to the best of my knowledge never happened.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,490
    Lights out in Kabul

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    Bit late for that. Power out in Kabul, Taliban in the suburbs and air strikes on the Taliban convoys.
  • FossFoss Posts: 507

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    That ship has sailed

    I would question Biden's moral compass for the withdrawal, but I suspect it will play well in the medium term in the US.

    Likewise I can't see Johnson's lead over Labour collapsing as Kabul falls.
    If we manage to get all of our people out and then Kabul falls then Johnson is probably alright. OTOH, if Kabul collapses far faster than we can withdraw and it turns into bloody rout with lots of dead embassy staff and troops then he's got a problem.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,584

    Foxy said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
    So is I, Daniel Blake. None of this lets Loach off for his Corbynista tomfoolery though.
    Just call him what he is Pete, an anti-Semite
    https://images.app.goo.gl/nZ9usoVHLV2r38kbA
    So you don't think he's anti-Semitic? Do you know much about his work, including when he said the Holocaust is up for debate?
    Show me where he said that.

    I do not think he is antisemitic.

    I think he is a fierce critic of Israel policy on Palestine though.

    But that isn't how it played out.

    Calling out Netanyahu's hawkish treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories is one thing, but he conflated that with Luciana Berger being of the Jewish faith. Corbyn sat on his hands when she was attacked by his acolytes.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,423
    darkage said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Did you also think that before 2016, or is it just since he threw his toys out the pram and started attacking his own party on an issue where you happen to agree with him?
    I did. Whilst I didn't agree with his positions, he had a consistent ideology that I respected and understood. Same for Rory Stewart.

    I even greatly respect Thatcher, despite disagreeing with much of what she did.

    That Tory Party is dead now, ideology has gone
    Oh, come off it. He's an independently wealthy, privately-educated member of the British upper classes with a degree from Oxbridge. He abstained on gay marriage and has had repeated pops at minority migrant communities over the years. He's everything that even moderate Labour supporters detest about Conservative governments.

    Based on your general posting history, I can just about believe you knew who he was before a few years ago, but I absolutely do not buy you had any particular admiration for him.
    Well, I personally don't buy Grieve and co's claim to be the custodians of sensible government. To me, it is all a load of nonsense. Grieve was part of a philistine gang who in a period of 6 years ruined large parts of the British state. Every day I am astounded as to how many otherwise thoughtful and intelligent people continue to endorse Cameron's government. The posh boy veneer is all window dressing and people still fall for it. These people basically ruined Britain. Boris is OK in comparison.
    "Ruined Britain" is a bit much, but it basically boils down to this: do you believe that leaving the EU is a catastrophic decision that will result in material lasting damage to Britain? If Grieve is sincere in his belief that the answer is yes, then his actions make sense. The bit I have never been able to fully understand - and which Cameron et al significantly failed to answer during the referendum campaign - is why that should be the case.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,541
    edited August 2021

    Foxy said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
    So is I, Daniel Blake. None of this lets Loach off for his Corbynista tomfoolery though.
    Just call him what he is Pete, an anti-Semite
    https://images.app.goo.gl/nZ9usoVHLV2r38kbA
    So you don't think he's anti-Semitic? Do you know much about his work, including when he said the Holocaust is up for debate?
    Show me where he said that.

    I do not think he is antisemitic.

    I think he is a fierce critic of Israel policy on Palestine though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anRhI2xezgA

    Here you are.
    Apparently his defense per the link below seems to be that he was confused by the question and that question and answers overlapped. I know when I'm asked about the holocaust (and the questioner repeats it to make sure I get the premise of the question) it slips right past me and I continue an answer that has nothing to do with that, even though I said 'History is for all of us to discuss, even...' then abruptly changed the subject mid sentence to the foundation of Israel instead in what a cynical person might call a distraction.

    https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/culture/ken-loach-clarifies-comments-on-holocaust-denial-507502

    It seems like another of those examples where someone complains sinister forces twist their words, when their response to a very simple question (which was made hypothetical in this case) was unnecessarily convoluted in the first place, for reasons that are hard to fathom.

    In other words, it's a 'I'm a fool, not malicious' defence, which many politicians also use (not on this issue alone), since it is hard to credit an intelligent filmmaker found a simple question which was repeated to him hard to understand.
  • FossFoss Posts: 507
    I also suspect that the greatest fear the Western Governments have isn't a last-helicoper-out-of-Saigon-type event but something like the Iranian Hostage Crisis.
  • HYUFD said:

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    He is right. if so

    Great words from Senator Mitt Romney tonight 'I understand but disagree with those who felt we should leave Afghanistan; I cannot understand why it has been done with such tragic human cost; without an effective strategy to defend our partners; and with inestimable shock to our nation’s credibility, reliability, and honor.'
    https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1426658988091973633?s=20
    Mitt Romney the draft dodger.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,850
    edited August 2021
    Foss said:

    I also suspect that the greatest fear the Western Governments have isn't a last-helicoper-out-of-Saigon-type event but something like the Iranian Hostage Crisis.

    No, it is another 9/11 on a major western city which sadly is getting more likely by the day now thanks to this hapless US adminstration effectively handing over the keys of Kabul to the Taliban and miltant jihadis again.

    Though to be fair to Jimmy Carter he looks like Julius Caesar compared to Biden right now
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,664

    Foxy said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    Kes is very good.
    So is I, Daniel Blake. None of this lets Loach off for his Corbynista tomfoolery though.
    Just call him what he is Pete, an anti-Semite
    https://images.app.goo.gl/nZ9usoVHLV2r38kbA
    So you don't think he's anti-Semitic? Do you know much about his work, including when he said the Holocaust is up for debate?
    Show me where he said that.

    I do not think he is antisemitic.

    I think he is a fierce critic of Israel policy on Palestine though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anRhI2xezgA

    Here you are.
    No not here you are.

    You said he said the holocaust is up for debate. He said nothing of the sort in that clip.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,584
    Foss said:

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    That ship has sailed

    I would question Biden's moral compass for the withdrawal, but I suspect it will play well in the medium term in the US.

    Likewise I can't see Johnson's lead over Labour collapsing as Kabul falls.
    If we manage to get all of our people out and then Kabul falls then Johnson is probably alright. OTOH, if Kabul collapses far faster than we can withdraw and it turns into bloody rout with lots of dead embassy staff and troops then he's got a problem.
    If that comes to pass Biden has a much bigger problem
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,850

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    He is right. if so

    Great words from Senator Mitt Romney tonight 'I understand but disagree with those who felt we should leave Afghanistan; I cannot understand why it has been done with such tragic human cost; without an effective strategy to defend our partners; and with inestimable shock to our nation’s credibility, reliability, and honor.'
    https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1426658988091973633?s=20
    Mitt Romney the draft dodger.
    No, he was serving as a Mormon missionary in France at the time and did not come out unscathed himself, he was badly injured in a car accident
    https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/27/the-making-of-mitt-romney-a-look-at-his-faith-journey/comment-page-10/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 19,393

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    He is right. if so

    Great words from Senator Mitt Romney tonight 'I understand but disagree with those who felt we should leave Afghanistan; I cannot understand why it has been done with such tragic human cost; without an effective strategy to defend our partners; and with inestimable shock to our nation’s credibility, reliability, and honor.'
    https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1426658988091973633?s=20
    Mitt Romney the draft dodger.
    This is a tragedy wrought by successive American errors, but finessed by Biden
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 2,120
    edited August 2021
    Endillion said:

    darkage said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Did you also think that before 2016, or is it just since he threw his toys out the pram and started attacking his own party on an issue where you happen to agree with him?
    I did. Whilst I didn't agree with his positions, he had a consistent ideology that I respected and understood. Same for Rory Stewart.

    I even greatly respect Thatcher, despite disagreeing with much of what she did.

    That Tory Party is dead now, ideology has gone
    Oh, come off it. He's an independently wealthy, privately-educated member of the British upper classes with a degree from Oxbridge. He abstained on gay marriage and has had repeated pops at minority migrant communities over the years. He's everything that even moderate Labour supporters detest about Conservative governments.

    Based on your general posting history, I can just about believe you knew who he was before a few years ago, but I absolutely do not buy you had any particular admiration for him.
    Well, I personally don't buy Grieve and co's claim to be the custodians of sensible government. To me, it is all a load of nonsense. Grieve was part of a philistine gang who in a period of 6 years ruined large parts of the British state. Every day I am astounded as to how many otherwise thoughtful and intelligent people continue to endorse Cameron's government. The posh boy veneer is all window dressing and people still fall for it. These people basically ruined Britain. Boris is OK in comparison.
    "Ruined Britain" is a bit much, but it basically boils down to this: do you believe that leaving the EU is a catastrophic decision that will result in material lasting damage to Britain? If Grieve is sincere in his belief that the answer is yes, then his actions make sense. The bit I have never been able to fully understand - and which Cameron et al significantly failed to answer during the referendum campaign - is why that should be the case.
    Leaving the EU is, in the end, a side issue. It matters to Grieve, but he was part of the government that turned this whole issue in to a political gamble - and one which they ended up on the wrong side of and to the benefit of Boris Johnson - a frankenstein of their own creation.


    It is the all other stuff they were doing. The state as business etc.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2021/04/david-cameron-and-great-sell-out
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,578
    HYUFD said:

    Foss said:

    I also suspect that the greatest fear the Western Governments have isn't a last-helicoper-out-of-Saigon-type event but something like the Iranian Hostage Crisis.

    No, it is another 9/11 on a major western city which sadly is getting more likely by the day now thanks to this hapless US adminstration effectively handing over the keys of Kabul to the Taliban and miltant jihadis again.

    Though to be fair to Jimmy Carter he looks like Julius Caesar compared to Biden right now
    I'm not sure what the fall of Kabul has to do with the likelihood of five lads with Stanley knives getting on board a B767.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,664

    https://youtu.be/anRhI2xezgA?t=72

    I have the timecode here. Loach is undoubtedly anti-Semitic and he should have been kicked out after this was on

    You have nothing of the sort.

    I hope he sues your ass.

    History will see Loach as a defender of the poor and weak and his superb body of work will be remembered for decades to come.

    SKS more along the lines of

    Who?
  • "The Holocaust was discussed in a meeting"

    "History is for us all to discuss."

    You are defending an anti-Semite.
  • Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    He is right. if so

    Great words from Senator Mitt Romney tonight 'I understand but disagree with those who felt we should leave Afghanistan; I cannot understand why it has been done with such tragic human cost; without an effective strategy to defend our partners; and with inestimable shock to our nation’s credibility, reliability, and honor.'
    https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1426658988091973633?s=20
    Mitt Romney the draft dodger.
    This is a tragedy wrought by successive American errors, but finessed by Biden
    Boris is also withdrawing his troops.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,211
    edited August 2021

    "The Holocaust was discussed in a meeting"

    "History is for us all to discuss."

    You are defending an anti-Semite.

    Who are those quotes from?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 7,653
    Loach denied he's a Holocaust denier.

    Can I at least make one thing clear? In a BBC interview, where speech overlapped, my words have been twisted to suggest that I think it is acceptable to question the reality of the Holocaust. I do not. The Holocaust is as real a historical event as the second world war itself and not to be challenged. In Primo Levi’s words: “Those who deny Auschwitz would be ready to remake it.” The terrible pictures I first saw as a nine-year-old are ingrained on my memory, as they are for all my generation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/ken-loach-i-give-no-legitimacy-to-holocaust-denial
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,664

    "The Holocaust was discussed in a meeting"

    "History is for us all to discuss."

    You are defending an anti-Semite.

    You have selective hearing.

    He said "I don't think it was discussed actually" in response to the interviewer saying it was discussed in a meeting.

    You are accusing him of being an anti semite. Labour has not done that. Some lobby groups who don't like his stance on Palestine certainly have.

    You are wrong IMO

    Don't come on here saying he has said x if you then post him saying y as pròof
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,664

    Loach denied he's a Holocaust denier.

    Can I at least make one thing clear? In a BBC interview, where speech overlapped, my words have been twisted to suggest that I think it is acceptable to question the reality of the Holocaust. I do not. The Holocaust is as real a historical event as the second world war itself and not to be challenged. In Primo Levi’s words: “Those who deny Auschwitz would be ready to remake it.” The terrible pictures I first saw as a nine-year-old are ingrained on my memory, as they are for all my generation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/ken-loach-i-give-no-legitimacy-to-holocaust-denial

    Thank you CHB is a complete moron.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 22,105
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    "With all its might and hi-tech sophistication, the US has allowed itself to be beaten by medieval dogmatists on horseback."

    Rory Stewart

    I think we should just pay him a few billion and get him to sort it out. My guess is that he would mostly.
    He is unusually and impressively, genuinely connected with the region. He's also extremely articulate. It's such a shame that he was tossed aside..
    He chose to step aside. I rate him very highly. His specialist subject is Afghanistan, and I'd just let him try. Anything he wants in terms of funding. I'd guess not more than a 30% chance of success, but that's better than the current 0%.
    Oh yes, so I'm now reminded by you and a quick look at his history.. I think it's most unfortunate that Boris hasn't managed to entice him back to the party, or even into that kind of job.
    That Gavin Williamson has a cabinet position, and Rory Stewart doesn’t, is indeed a source of quiet despair
    Ha! You might at least credit me - https://twitter.com/cyclefree2/status/1426499430707081218?s=21.
  • kle4 said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    To the extent I was ever aware of him it was in the context of his politics, and the impression that anything he made would very much be about pushing that politics (which is ok, not all art is meant to be subtle, or have mass appeal), though I don't know if that is the case with his films in reality (he's made quite a few, so I presume not).

    I recall I, Daniel Blake seemed to be positively received by critics and got attention, but I couldn't name any others.
    I have Loach's The Spirit of '45 on dvd. He must be one of those gammons that hark back to the war (or just after it).
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2332801/
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,664

    kle4 said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    To the extent I was ever aware of him it was in the context of his politics, and the impression that anything he made would very much be about pushing that politics (which is ok, not all art is meant to be subtle, or have mass appeal), though I don't know if that is the case with his films in reality (he's made quite a few, so I presume not).

    I recall I, Daniel Blake seemed to be positively received by critics and got attention, but I couldn't name any others.
    I have Loach's The Spirit of '45 on dvd. He must be one of those gammons that hark back to the war (or just after it).
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2332801/
    Is Kes about the war?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,458
    Latest Zambian election results. The current president is trailing heavily to the opposition candidate.

    https://zambiaelections2021.org.zm
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,541
    edited August 2021



    "The Holocaust was discussed in a meeting"

    "History is for us all to discuss."

    You are defending an anti-Semite.

    You have selective hearing.

    He said "I don't think it was discussed actually" in response to the interviewer saying it was discussed in a meeting.

    Your hearing also seems to be selective given the interviewer followed up from that with the question of whether it would have been acceptable, which he did then answer rather than simply avoiding it as a hypothetical.

    Surely if you wish to defend his response as non anti-semitic you also have to present the question and answer in its context, not just CHB?

    Loach denied he's a Holocaust denier.

    Can I at least make one thing clear? In a BBC interview, where speech overlapped, my words have been twisted to suggest that I think it is acceptable to question the reality of the Holocaust. I do not. The Holocaust is as real a historical event as the second world war itself and not to be challenged. In Primo Levi’s words: “Those who deny Auschwitz would be ready to remake it.” The terrible pictures I first saw as a nine-year-old are ingrained on my memory, as they are for all my generation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/ken-loach-i-give-no-legitimacy-to-holocaust-denial

    Thank you CHB is a complete moron.
    How does Loach's own explanation prove that? It only does that if one accepts his words as unvarnished truth, and I am sure you would agree that we don't automatically accept someone's word. Would you accept Boris's explanations of why he is not a racist? Keir's explainations of why he is not out to get the Left of the party?

    For a start his explanation is simply not credible, since we've seen the clip and the question was clarified by the interviewer, so his suggestion his speech overlapped is simply untrue. He answered the question put to him and he knew what the question was about. He should have just denied that answer was anti-semitic rather than invent a conspiracy about his words being twisted because of speech overlapping, since there was nothing overt in his response, and inventing sinister forces makes him look paranoid.

    For someone who is a talented communicator in film he seems to be pretty bad both at making himself clear, and clarifying himself. And whether he is an anti-semite or not I don't see why it is other peoples' fault that he gives misleading answers to things.

    It's like all those people who say it is hard to criticise Israeli policy, when it in fact it is really quite easy to do so without indulging in unreasonable tropes - the question was not a hard one to answer, he made it more complicated, and then complained about it.

    Night night - Loach and his fellows are always fun, people go nuts about him.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,584
    edited August 2021

    kle4 said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    To the extent I was ever aware of him it was in the context of his politics, and the impression that anything he made would very much be about pushing that politics (which is ok, not all art is meant to be subtle, or have mass appeal), though I don't know if that is the case with his films in reality (he's made quite a few, so I presume not).

    I recall I, Daniel Blake seemed to be positively received by critics and got attention, but I couldn't name any others.
    I have Loach's The Spirit of '45 on dvd. He must be one of those gammons that hark back to the war (or just after it).
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2332801/
    Is Kes about the war?
    It's about a Kestrel! Memory hey? No wonder you recall that Corbyn won GE2017.
  • kle4 said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    To the extent I was ever aware of him it was in the context of his politics, and the impression that anything he made would very much be about pushing that politics (which is ok, not all art is meant to be subtle, or have mass appeal), though I don't know if that is the case with his films in reality (he's made quite a few, so I presume not).

    I recall I, Daniel Blake seemed to be positively received by critics and got attention, but I couldn't name any others.
    I have Loach's The Spirit of '45 on dvd. He must be one of those gammons that hark back to the war (or just after it).
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2332801/
    Is Kes about the war?
    It's about a Kestrel! Memory hey? No wonder you think Corbyn won GE2017.
    Did Ken Loach make Kes? Maybe I should arrange my DVD collection by directors. And Kes is about a football match.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,584
    edited August 2021

    kle4 said:

    Confession time: I honestly don't think I have ever seen a single film by Ken Loach.

    To the extent I was ever aware of him it was in the context of his politics, and the impression that anything he made would very much be about pushing that politics (which is ok, not all art is meant to be subtle, or have mass appeal), though I don't know if that is the case with his films in reality (he's made quite a few, so I presume not).

    I recall I, Daniel Blake seemed to be positively received by critics and got attention, but I couldn't name any others.
    I have Loach's The Spirit of '45 on dvd. He must be one of those gammons that hark back to the war (or just after it).
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2332801/
    Is Kes about the war?
    It's about a Kestrel! Memory hey? No wonder you think Corbyn won GE2017.
    Did Ken Loach make Kes? Maybe I should arrange my DVD collection by directors. And Kes is about a football match.
    Someone has already quoted the brilliant Brian Glover line about Bobby Charlton. It is a fantastic film.

    I remember seeing it as a seven year old and being quite animated when the boy running the errand to the Headmaster's office mistakenly gets caned. The injustice!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 18,903
    CatMan said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Did you also think that before 2016, or is it just since he threw his toys out the pram and started attacking his own party on an issue where you happen to agree with him?
    I did. Whilst I didn't agree with his positions, he had a consistent ideology that I respected and understood. Same for Rory Stewart.

    I even greatly respect Thatcher, despite disagreeing with much of what she did.

    That Tory Party is dead now, ideology has gone
    Oh, come off it. He's an independently wealthy, privately-educated member of the British upper classes with a degree from Oxbridge. He abstained on gay marriage and has had repeated pops at minority migrant communities over the years. He's everything that even moderate Labour supporters detest about Conservative governments.

    Based on your general posting history, I can just about believe you knew who he was before a few years ago, but I absolutely do not buy you had any particular admiration for him.
    Acording to theyworkforyou.com he mostly voted for Gay Marriage (altough was absent for some votes, I'm not sure if that's the same as Abstaining)

    https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24964/rory_stewart/penrith_and_the_border/divisions?policy=6686
    I disagreed with him frequently, but felt he had a consistent respect for principles as he saw them. How he dealt with Brexit confirmed that opinion.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,458
    It's difficult to believe the Afghan army has only lasted a matter of days after American withdrawal, after nearly 20 years of training by Western forces.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,582
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    "With all its might and hi-tech sophistication, the US has allowed itself to be beaten by medieval dogmatists on horseback."

    Rory Stewart

    I think we should just pay him a few billion and get him to sort it out. My guess is that he would mostly.
    He is unusually and impressively, genuinely connected with the region. He's also extremely articulate. It's such a shame that he was tossed aside..
    He chose to step aside. I rate him very highly. His specialist subject is Afghanistan, and I'd just let him try. Anything he wants in terms of funding. I'd guess not more than a 30% chance of success, but that's better than the current 0%.
    Oh yes, so I'm now reminded by you and a quick look at his history.. I think it's most unfortunate that Boris hasn't managed to entice him back to the party, or even into that kind of job.
    That Gavin Williamson has a cabinet position, and Rory Stewart doesn’t, is indeed a source of quiet despair
    Ha! You might at least credit me - https://twitter.com/cyclefree2/status/1426499430707081218?s=21.
    I quite like Rory Stewart but how on Earth have "the Brexiters" brought on millions of Afghan refugees? What utter derangement. It's also bonkers to say that we in the West have handed the country over to the Taliban. They were in charge when we got there! We deposed them, held them at bay for 20 years, spent a trillion dollars and thousands of Western lives to build up the Afghan army, and then they collapsed the moment we left. The responsibility here lies with Afghans themselves.

    This desire to always scapegoat the West for much of the world not being able to get their shite together is just pathological self hatred. Singapore and Taiwan have shown what is possible. Others just collectively refuse to take their chance.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,582
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    He is right. if so

    Great words from Senator Mitt Romney tonight 'I understand but disagree with those who felt we should leave Afghanistan; I cannot understand why it has been done with such tragic human cost; without an effective strategy to defend our partners; and with inestimable shock to our nation’s credibility, reliability, and honor.'
    https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1426658988091973633?s=20
    Mitt Romney the draft dodger.
    This is a tragedy wrought by successive American errors, but finessed by Biden
    So we should have just stayed there forever?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,194

    CatMan said:

    If you want to improve the Brexit deal then that's fine.

    But then Brexit isn't done - and you claiming it was in 2019 was a lie. And you claiming that the deal would resolve Brexit was also a lie.

    The deal has not done either, NI remains completely unresolved and pretending that a deal you said was great is now needing to be changed less than a year later suggests total dishonesty when you say the old deal wasn't rubbish. You implied it was above.

    No!

    Johnson has got Brexit done, he said so. The deal was oven ready for the microwave, he said so. If Brexit needs renegotiation he must be a massive liar because he said it was done, and "done" doesn't mean Brexit needs renogiation.

    If Brexit isn't infact "done", the RedWall must be told!
    Brexit is done.

    Done does require renegotiation because politics never ends. But that's post-Brexit now.
    I's not easy negotiating with a liar and someone who won't stick to the rules.
    You mean like the EU agreeing to renegotiate CAP if we get rid of half of our rebate, only to then refuse to renegotiate CAP after we do so?

    You're right, it burns bridges. The EU's acted like that for years though and I don't see it changing any time soon, so them getting a taste of their own medicine is karmic justice.
    Acording to Wikipedia (which I accept is not exactly perfect, so I'd be happy if you could post a source which contradicts this), it was 20%, and "on condition that the funds did not contribute to CAP payments, were matched by contributions from other countries and were only for the new member states. Spending on the CAP remained fixed, as had previously been agreed. Overall, this reduced the proportion of the budget spent on the CAP"
    From 2005 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4537912.stm

    "The European Commission is asked to hold a "full and wide-ranging" review of all EU spending, including the Common Agricultural Policy and the British rebate, and to draw up a report in 2008/9. "

    This promised review of the CAP to the best of my knowledge never happened.
    The review was started and reported by 2010!! The changes then started to roll out from there.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer seemed to imply we should be putting troops back in Afghanistan (?)

    He is right. if so

    Great words from Senator Mitt Romney tonight 'I understand but disagree with those who felt we should leave Afghanistan; I cannot understand why it has been done with such tragic human cost; without an effective strategy to defend our partners; and with inestimable shock to our nation’s credibility, reliability, and honor.'
    https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1426658988091973633?s=20
    Mitt Romney the draft dodger.
    No, he was serving as a Mormon missionary in France at the time and did not come out unscathed himself, he was badly injured in a car accident
    https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/27/the-making-of-mitt-romney-a-look-at-his-faith-journey/comment-page-10/
    You are beyond parody.
This discussion has been closed.