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Next UK General Election: The great graduate/non-graduate divide – politicalbetting.com

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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373

    Alistair said:
    We point and shriek in shock at the odd dodgy half a million pound NHS contract to a relative of a Minister, duck houses and first home-second home expense claims.

    UK politicians are rank amateurs claiming pin-money compared to Republican Governors, Senators and Representatives.
    I once gave a talk to a Chinese delegation about how Parliament works, and by way of avoiding it being a puff piece I told them about the expenses scandal, duck house, expensive carpets and all. They smiled politely at the idea that this was REAL corruption.
    Well it is Nick, but what constituted corruption seems to have been diluted after Trump and to a somewhat lesser extent by our own incumbent Government's Covid supply-chain antics.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    The Ayrshire result was not “spectacular” at all: the Tories just picked up most of the Ind votes, as he was formerly a Tory.

    Dalry and West Kilbride results
    Results are for first-preference votes

    CONSERVATIVE: 2016 votes (53.5%) +31.3
    SNP: 1292 votes (34.3%) + 10.5
    LABOUR: 305 votes (8.1%) -0.3
    LIBDEM: 58 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    SOCIALIST LABOUR: 57 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    INDEPENDENT: 42 votes (1.1%) +0.6

    Overall turnout 36.3% (-15.7)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19511703.dalry-west-kilbride-tories-claim-north-ayrshire-by-election-win/
  • eekeek Posts: 28,377

    On topic, I'd love to see a breakdown of voting intention based on type of university.

    The traditional universities that were formed in the early thirteenth century as opposed to those who attended former polytechnics that became universities under Mrs Thatcher/John Major's policies.

    Also a split by degree taken and degree classification.

    Now that's getting complicated.

    Is someone with a Social Sciences Desmond from a Russell Group University more likely to vote Tory than someone with an Engineering First from a former Poly, or vice versa? Vice versa in my case.
    Also it depends on the Tory party - with a different candidate and Rishi in charge I might well vote Tory.

    With the current candidate and Boris, not a chance.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    Are those true comparisons with the previous elections? The multimember slate system does give false comparisons when a lower slated candidate is replaced.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    The Ayrshire result was not “spectacular” at all: the Tories just picked up most of the Ind votes, as he was formerly a Tory.

    Dalry and West Kilbride results
    Results are for first-preference votes

    CONSERVATIVE: 2016 votes (53.5%) +31.3
    SNP: 1292 votes (34.3%) + 10.5
    LABOUR: 305 votes (8.1%) -0.3
    LIBDEM: 58 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    SOCIALIST LABOUR: 57 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    INDEPENDENT: 42 votes (1.1%) +0.6

    Overall turnout 36.3% (-15.7)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19511703.dalry-west-kilbride-tories-claim-north-ayrshire-by-election-win/
    Yep, split vote last time.

    https://ballotbox.scot/dwk-by-election-2021
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    Well, yes. If Scotland was a landlocked country, you probably wouldn't have a submarine base. ;) But the deep lochs and easy access to the North Atlantic also make it rather useful.

    BTW, is 'Jock' now an acceptable word to use for our Scottish friends?
    They could have been based at Devonport which would have avoided the necessity of driving nuclear warheads 400 miles up and down the country. The selection of Faslane (and RNAD Coulport) definitely had an element of damage limitation for English population centres to it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    Well, yes. If Scotland was a landlocked country, you probably wouldn't have a submarine base. ;) But the deep lochs and easy access to the North Atlantic also make it rather useful.

    BTW, is 'Jock' now an acceptable word to use for our Scottish friends?
    They could have been based at Devonport which would have avoided the necessity of driving nuclear warheads 400 miles up and down the country. The selection of Faslane (and RNAD Coulport) definitely had an element of damage limitation for English population centres to it.
    It is also a rather long way to motor the boats down to the Mull of Kintyre before they even can get to and past Malin. They don't fit in the Crinan Canal.

    So you could be based in NW England with very little further way to go - Barrow is where they build the things nowadays (and some, at least, in the past IIRC).>
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,625
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    Well, yes. If Scotland was a landlocked country, you probably wouldn't have a submarine base. ;) But the deep lochs and easy access to the North Atlantic also make it rather useful.

    BTW, is 'Jock' now an acceptable word to use for our Scottish friends?
    They could have been based at Devonport which would have avoided the necessity of driving nuclear warheads 400 miles up and down the country. The selection of Faslane (and RNAD Coulport) definitely had an element of damage limitation for English population centres to it.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28009977
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Powerful interview with Durrani here from Kandahar, waiting for a knock on the door:

    “This means losing your houses, your dreams, your goals, your ambition... everything.”

    Pashtana Durrani, executive director of an NGO for girls' education speaks to @krishgm from Kandahar in Afghanistan, a city under siege by the Taliban. https://t.co/j6qUPzDkP3

    Rory Stewart on R4 this morning was equally devastating about the consequences of the abrupt decision to pull out.
    As he pointed out, things were being held together by a few thousand troops, and air support, which while costly, represented a fraction of what had previously been spent.
    The US decision is at least defensible; the manner in which it has been carried out is not.

    The Afghan regime deserve some blame too, for utterly failing to plan for the consequences.
    "The Afghan regime" .... "utterly failing to plan for the consequences"

    Not sure whether to laugh or cry.

    As to pulling out. It is inevitable, for the UK. Do it now or wait until it gets to the roof of the Embassy.

    The only way to have changed this result would been to have changed the culture of Afghanistan.

    Which, interestingly, is the one thing everyone involved agreed not to do.
    The culture of Afghanistan has been changed, significantly.
    There is a whole generation which has grown up under the US occupation, and a large number of them have had access to education which simply didn't exist prior to that. Though of course other parts of the country had no such thing.

    Whether it might have been possible for an Afghan government to consolidate its forces in defensible regions and hold out against the Taliban is pretty well moot now - but they didn't even make the attempt.
    This is a dangerous myth. You can see 1970s photos showing women students in western dress, for instance:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolCool/comments/4jqt9a/female_students_at_the_polytechnical_university/

    The Taliban did not exist before the mid-1990s, let alone run the country. Basically, it was a foreign-financed and armed militia which won what was effectively a low-level civil war after the Soviet invasion and departure.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban's_rise_to_power

    ETA at least in its urban centres, if not always outside, Afghanistan was a relatively modern, westernised state.
    It is true. I spent an interesting evening once with a retired medical missionary who had spent the Sixties and Seventies in Kabul, doing clinics all over the country. It seemed quite a comfortable existence, and while his Christianity was low key, it was not disapproved of.

    The disconnect between the middle classes and the blue collar workers outside the big cities is a world wide phenomenon. I don't think this is snobbery, more lack of interest, and that is mutual. What fascinates and obsesses one is thought dull or irrelevant by the other. I think Brexit has increased this, as the Remainers that I know simply ignore Brexit and the Brexiteers as far as they can. If the folk of Hartlepool dislike what I value, then I see no reason to listen to them.
    I think the car versus no car polling with social class splits the other day was fascinating. Basically social class was absolutely irrelevant, car versus no car summed up the polling divide perfectly.

    Which probably reflects the city versus provincial split.

    To me cars represent the very best of transportation. Personal, individual, on demand, can be personalised, can be controlled etc.

    For others cars are the worst form of transportation and they'd rather get on trains commuting with other people (shudder) on preset routes.

    Is there any surprise that car drivers are more likely to be individualists and train commuters collectivists?

    Thankfully like with Brexit, the car is king in marginal seats.
    The divide is more between those who inhabit an adolescent Hugo Gernsback/Look and Learn technofuturama dream, and adults. Cars are all those things, but we cannot afford them without running out of space for roads and carparks, and resources for making cars. Especially not if we are going to put every slumdwelling family in the world into their own nice detached res. with a car on the driveway, and if you think the world is as yet underpopulated and there are not enough slumdwellers. Yebbut TECHNOLOGEEEE is not an answer to this point, unless it is miniaturisation technology which reduces us all to the size of ants.
    6% of the country is inhabitated.

    In other words, you are innumerate and your claims are just nonsensical.
    No, true innumeracy is offering a naked percentage as if, without context, it meant anything at all. Drink this drink, it is only 6% cyanide. Mao was an OK guy, he killed less than 6% of the world's population.

    Truly dumb.
    Even as it stands, it's hard to see what "6% of the country is inhabitated (sic)" is supposed to mean. Is this the percentage defined as urban area? The percentage actually covered by buildings? (and gardens?) What about roads and parks, for example? Do they count as inhabited area?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852
    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426135545445593092

    Inverness West: no Independents or Labour this time compared to last. But 'Independent' is often a polite word for Tory or Lib Dem anyway. So again harsd to compare.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,559
    James Anderson moves to 625 test wickets.

    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/93276.html
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Powerful interview with Durrani here from Kandahar, waiting for a knock on the door:

    “This means losing your houses, your dreams, your goals, your ambition... everything.”

    Pashtana Durrani, executive director of an NGO for girls' education speaks to @krishgm from Kandahar in Afghanistan, a city under siege by the Taliban. https://t.co/j6qUPzDkP3

    Rory Stewart on R4 this morning was equally devastating about the consequences of the abrupt decision to pull out.
    As he pointed out, things were being held together by a few thousand troops, and air support, which while costly, represented a fraction of what had previously been spent.
    The US decision is at least defensible; the manner in which it has been carried out is not.

    The Afghan regime deserve some blame too, for utterly failing to plan for the consequences.
    "The Afghan regime" .... "utterly failing to plan for the consequences"

    Not sure whether to laugh or cry.

    As to pulling out. It is inevitable, for the UK. Do it now or wait until it gets to the roof of the Embassy.

    The only way to have changed this result would been to have changed the culture of Afghanistan.

    Which, interestingly, is the one thing everyone involved agreed not to do.
    The culture of Afghanistan has been changed, significantly.
    There is a whole generation which has grown up under the US occupation, and a large number of them have had access to education which simply didn't exist prior to that. Though of course other parts of the country had no such thing.

    Whether it might have been possible for an Afghan government to consolidate its forces in defensible regions and hold out against the Taliban is pretty well moot now - but they didn't even make the attempt.
    This is a dangerous myth. You can see 1970s photos showing women students in western dress, for instance:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolCool/comments/4jqt9a/female_students_at_the_polytechnical_university/

    The Taliban did not exist before the mid-1990s, let alone run the country. Basically, it was a foreign-financed and armed militia which won what was effectively a low-level civil war after the Soviet invasion and departure.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban's_rise_to_power

    ETA at least in its urban centres, if not always outside, Afghanistan was a relatively modern, westernised state.
    It is true. I spent an interesting evening once with a retired medical missionary who had spent the Sixties and Seventies in Kabul, doing clinics all over the country. It seemed quite a comfortable existence, and while his Christianity was low key, it was not disapproved of.

    The disconnect between the middle classes and the blue collar workers outside the big cities is a world wide phenomenon. I don't think this is snobbery, more lack of interest, and that is mutual. What fascinates and obsesses one is thought dull or irrelevant by the other. I think Brexit has increased this, as the Remainers that I know simply ignore Brexit and the Brexiteers as far as they can. If the folk of Hartlepool dislike what I value, then I see no reason to listen to them.
    I think the car versus no car polling with social class splits the other day was fascinating. Basically social class was absolutely irrelevant, car versus no car summed up the polling divide perfectly.

    Which probably reflects the city versus provincial split.

    To me cars represent the very best of transportation. Personal, individual, on demand, can be personalised, can be controlled etc.

    For others cars are the worst form of transportation and they'd rather get on trains commuting with other people (shudder) on preset routes.

    Is there any surprise that car drivers are more likely to be individualists and train commuters collectivists?

    Thankfully like with Brexit, the car is king in marginal seats.
    The divide is more between those who inhabit an adolescent Hugo Gernsback/Look and Learn technofuturama dream, and adults. Cars are all those things, but we cannot afford them without running out of space for roads and carparks, and resources for making cars. Especially not if we are going to put every slumdwelling family in the world into their own nice detached res. with a car on the driveway, and if you think the world is as yet underpopulated and there are not enough slumdwellers. Yebbut TECHNOLOGEEEE is not an answer to this point, unless it is miniaturisation technology which reduces us all to the size of ants.
    6% of the country is inhabitated.

    In other words, you are innumerate and your claims are just nonsensical.
    No, true innumeracy is offering a naked percentage as if, without context, it meant anything at all. Drink this drink, it is only 6% cyanide. Mao was an OK guy, he killed less than 6% of the world's population.

    Truly dumb.
    Even as it stands, it's hard to see what "6% of the country is inhabitated (sic)" is supposed to mean. Is this the percentage defined as urban area? The percentage actually covered by buildings? (and gardens?) What about roads and parks, for example? Do they count as inhabited area?
    Quite so. I don't see that is numerical at all. The country is inhabited. If we want to talk about population density we need to do some really difficult calculations as to how you define that.

    Say I live on my own in a 10 room house. I am necessarily only in 1 room at a time max, sometimes in none of them. Is my house 10% inhabited? What follows from that?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,625

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    The literal reason for locating the original Polaris in Scotland was geography. It is quite clear in the various minutes and documents preserved at Kew.

    Simply, Polaris had a limited range. That meant that to reach its targets in the USSR, the submarines needed to be in the Arctic, near the edge of the ice cap. This was a fundamental limit of missile technology of the time.

    The other issue was that by far the noisiest part of a nuclear submarine was the reactor cooling pumps. At very low power levels these could be turned off - limiting the submarine to 2-4 knots.

    The time taken for a submarine to deploy from Portsmouth to its patrol zone at walking speed (essentially) would mean that the transit would take weeks. All this added up to needing 5 submarines to keep at least one on patrol.

    By shifting the main operating base to Scotland, the time to get on patrol station was cut massively. Which in turn allowed the reduction of the required force to 4 submarines.

    Trident doesn't have the limited range, and the submarines are essentially silent at 15-20 knots. The reason for continuing to base the submarines in Scotland was that it was cheaper than building a new base elsewhere.
    Wasn't there another issue? If you had a base (say) at Plymouth, it would be easy for an enemy to camp a submarine or two outside and then trail them. Faslane has a whole series of channels and islands to lose the enemy in once you get past Kintyre. And the surrounding land allows easier detection of enemy submarines.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,751

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    The Ayrshire result was not “spectacular” at all: the Tories just picked up most of the Ind votes, as he was formerly a Tory.

    Dalry and West Kilbride results
    Results are for first-preference votes

    CONSERVATIVE: 2016 votes (53.5%) +31.3
    SNP: 1292 votes (34.3%) + 10.5
    LABOUR: 305 votes (8.1%) -0.3
    LIBDEM: 58 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    SOCIALIST LABOUR: 57 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    INDEPENDENT: 42 votes (1.1%) +0.6

    Overall turnout 36.3% (-15.7)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19511703.dalry-west-kilbride-tories-claim-north-ayrshire-by-election-win/
    Come off it, Stuart. The Tory vote share was up over 30% to 53%. In 2017 they got 22%. In 2012 it was less than 10%. Regardless of the influence of Independent candidates, it shows that the toxicity of the Tory brand has somewhat diminished, to say the least.
  • DougSeal said:



    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.

    Before we moved to Canterbury in 1984 my family lived in Berkshire, 10 miles from USAF Greenham Common, and 5 miles from the HM's Atomic Research Facility at Aldermaston. We too kept saying "if Berkshire were in England, or in the Home Counties, those evil bastard English would never have put these dangerous nuclear things here".

    I dunno, a successful nuclear attack in the 80s would have made thousands of pounds of improvements to Reading.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,978
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    Well, yes. If Scotland was a landlocked country, you probably wouldn't have a submarine base. ;) But the deep lochs and easy access to the North Atlantic also make it rather useful.

    BTW, is 'Jock' now an acceptable word to use for our Scottish friends?
    They could have been based at Devonport which would have avoided the necessity of driving nuclear warheads 400 miles up and down the country. The selection of Faslane (and RNAD Coulport) definitely had an element of damage limitation for English population centres to it.
    Less of that expertise if you don’t mind.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,978
    They’ll be going on about being stronger for Scotland before long.

    https://twitter.com/perthshiremags/status/1426171448964616192?s=21
  • "No there hasn’t been a big terrorist attack in the west since 9/11."

    Define big.

    Nearly 200 in Madrid.
    130 in Paris/Bataclan & 86 in Nice.
    52 in London.


  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    The Ayrshire result was not “spectacular” at all: the Tories just picked up most of the Ind votes, as he was formerly a Tory.

    Dalry and West Kilbride results
    Results are for first-preference votes

    CONSERVATIVE: 2016 votes (53.5%) +31.3
    SNP: 1292 votes (34.3%) + 10.5
    LABOUR: 305 votes (8.1%) -0.3
    LIBDEM: 58 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    SOCIALIST LABOUR: 57 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    INDEPENDENT: 42 votes (1.1%) +0.6

    Overall turnout 36.3% (-15.7)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19511703.dalry-west-kilbride-tories-claim-north-ayrshire-by-election-win/
    Come off it, Stuart. The Tory vote share was up over 30% to 53%. In 2017 they got 22%. In 2012 it was less than 10%. Regardless of the influence of Independent candidates, it shows that the toxicity of the Tory brand has somewhat diminished, to say the least.
    Two SNP posters piling in to rubbish the result tells you all you need to know.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,087
    Andy_JS said:

    James Anderson moves to 625 test wickets.
    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/93276.html

    Makes the Indian openers' innings look even better.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,595
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    James Anderson moves to 625 test wickets.
    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/93276.html

    Makes the Indian openers' innings look even better.
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    James Anderson moves to 625 test wickets.
    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/93276.html

    Makes the Indian openers' innings look even better.
    ...626...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852
    edited August 2021

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    The Ayrshire result was not “spectacular” at all: the Tories just picked up most of the Ind votes, as he was formerly a Tory.

    Dalry and West Kilbride results
    Results are for first-preference votes

    CONSERVATIVE: 2016 votes (53.5%) +31.3
    SNP: 1292 votes (34.3%) + 10.5
    LABOUR: 305 votes (8.1%) -0.3
    LIBDEM: 58 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    SOCIALIST LABOUR: 57 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    INDEPENDENT: 42 votes (1.1%) +0.6

    Overall turnout 36.3% (-15.7)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19511703.dalry-west-kilbride-tories-claim-north-ayrshire-by-election-win/
    Come off it, Stuart. The Tory vote share was up over 30% to 53%. In 2017 they got 22%. In 2012 it was less than 10%. Regardless of the influence of Independent candidates, it shows that the toxicity of the Tory brand has somewhat diminished, to say the least.
    That's largely because 2 Tories last time on the area slate, one calling himself an independent, but one this time - sensible strategy, but only to be expected for a single [edit] seat. See the link to ballotbox I posted below.

    How to allow for 'Independents', who may be tTories or LDs who are ashamed to call tdhemselves that but often aren't, and how to compare times with one versus times with more candidates per party, are very common problems with comparing votes in Scottish local election between the main elections and by elections, of course, and bedevils interpretations of all parties' votes. Result not in doubt, anyway.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    DougSeal said:

    I'm with Hyufd on this. The 'War on terror' was about containment and control. And Biden's just given it all up.

    The War Against Terror was about taking control of oil-rich parts of the world. What do they care about control? Or terrorism for that matter - remember that the CIA literally created this monster to attack the Soviets.
    There was a review in the LRB the other week (i'll try and find it) about this. If the CIA devoted less time to its whizz-bang, James Bond, special/black ops type stuff (starting with the overthrow of Mosaddegh and continuing to the present day) and more time on actual intelligence gathering (notable failures including, but not limited to, 9/11) the world would not be in the mess it is in today.
    There are entire histories written of the CIA which suggest that the world would be a better place, to the benefit of the US, had it never existed.
    +1
    Edmund Burke once gave a scathing speech in parliament about the East India Company. One of his main points was how imperial control over Indians created a class of EIC political administrators with an autocratic mindset, who then returned home to Britain and saw the British population in a similar light. Often they used the money and connections to gain seats in parliament. Tyranny in India was a threat to liberty in Great Britain.

    I can't help but think the CIA and their actions in Latin America and the Islamic world have done the same to the US. The preference for torture and renditions of foreigners under the Neocons has morphed into a willingness to use violence against political opponents in the US. Hence the storming of the Capitol.

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    As I said earlier, not entirely sure where that leaves Berkshire (Aldermaston and, previously, Greenham Common) but, hey, why get in the way of a good grievance?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,048
    edited August 2021
    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    DougSeal said:

    I'm with Hyufd on this. The 'War on terror' was about containment and control. And Biden's just given it all up.

    The War Against Terror was about taking control of oil-rich parts of the world. What do they care about control? Or terrorism for that matter - remember that the CIA literally created this monster to attack the Soviets.
    There was a review in the LRB the other week (i'll try and find it) about this. If the CIA devoted less time to its whizz-bang, James Bond, special/black ops type stuff (starting with the overthrow of Mosaddegh and continuing to the present day) and more time on actual intelligence gathering (notable failures including, but not limited to, 9/11) the world would not be in the mess it is in today.
    There are entire histories written of the CIA which suggest that the world would be a better place, to the benefit of the US, had it never existed.
    +1
    Edmund Burke once gave a scathing speech in parliament about the East India Company. One of his main points was how imperial control over Indians created a class of EIC political administrators with an autocratic mindset, who then returned home to Britain and saw the British population in a similar light. Often they used the money and connections to gain seats in parliament. Tyranny in India was a threat to liberty in Great Britain.

    I can't help but think the CIA and their actions in Latin America and the Islamic world have done the same to the US. The preference for torture and renditions of foreigners under the Neocons has morphed into a willingness to use violence against political opponents in the US. Hence the storming of the Capitol.

    Except Trump is not a neocon, it is anti Trump Republicans like Bush, Romney and Bolton and the late John McCain who are neocons.

    Even Hillary Clinton is more neocon than Trump
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852

    DougSeal said:



    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.

    Before we moved to Canterbury in 1984 my family lived in Berkshire, 10 miles from USAF Greenham Common, and 5 miles from the HM's Atomic Research Facility at Aldermaston. We too kept saying "if Berkshire were in England, or in the Home Counties, those evil bastard English would never have put these dangerous nuclear things here".

    I dunno, a successful nuclear attack in the 80s would have made thousands of pounds of improvements to Reading.
    Notd to mention Slough, fide Betjeman J.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,369
    edited August 2021
    mwadams said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    James Anderson moves to 625 test wickets.
    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/93276.html

    Makes the Indian openers' innings look even better.
    ...626...
    40 to go.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852
    felix said:

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    The Ayrshire result was not “spectacular” at all: the Tories just picked up most of the Ind votes, as he was formerly a Tory.

    Dalry and West Kilbride results
    Results are for first-preference votes

    CONSERVATIVE: 2016 votes (53.5%) +31.3
    SNP: 1292 votes (34.3%) + 10.5
    LABOUR: 305 votes (8.1%) -0.3
    LIBDEM: 58 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    SOCIALIST LABOUR: 57 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    INDEPENDENT: 42 votes (1.1%) +0.6

    Overall turnout 36.3% (-15.7)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19511703.dalry-west-kilbride-tories-claim-north-ayrshire-by-election-win/
    Come off it, Stuart. The Tory vote share was up over 30% to 53%. In 2017 they got 22%. In 2012 it was less than 10%. Regardless of the influence of Independent candidates, it shows that the toxicity of the Tory brand has somewhat diminished, to say the least.
    Two SNP posters piling in to rubbish the result tells you all you need to know.
    It's surporising how few people seem to realise that plus/minus changes in the by elections in Scottish multimember seats versus the original elections are not as simple to understand as those in single seat constituencies - in this case it is definitely a good LD result at Wick, but without local knowledge of the 'Independents' it's almost impossible to know what is going on.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852
    edited August 2021
    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    As I said earlier, not entirely sure where that leaves Berkshire (Aldermaston and, previously, Greenham Common) but, hey, why get in the way of a good grievance?
    Aldermaston isn't the base for the launch systems. It's not threatening other nations with immediate devastation, is it?

    And I had friends in Oxford in the early 1980s. They sure had a grievance about [edit] Greenham, believe me.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,978
    felix said:

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    The Ayrshire result was not “spectacular” at all: the Tories just picked up most of the Ind votes, as he was formerly a Tory.

    Dalry and West Kilbride results
    Results are for first-preference votes

    CONSERVATIVE: 2016 votes (53.5%) +31.3
    SNP: 1292 votes (34.3%) + 10.5
    LABOUR: 305 votes (8.1%) -0.3
    LIBDEM: 58 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    SOCIALIST LABOUR: 57 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    INDEPENDENT: 42 votes (1.1%) +0.6

    Overall turnout 36.3% (-15.7)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19511703.dalry-west-kilbride-tories-claim-north-ayrshire-by-election-win/
    Come off it, Stuart. The Tory vote share was up over 30% to 53%. In 2017 they got 22%. In 2012 it was less than 10%. Regardless of the influence of Independent candidates, it shows that the toxicity of the Tory brand has somewhat diminished, to say the least.
    Two SNP posters piling in to rubbish the result tells you all you need to know.
    What does a migrant Tory piling in from the Costa del Sol tell us?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Former international development secretary Rory Stewart tells @SkyNews there will be millions of Afghans in "horrifying conditions".

    "It's going to be heartbreaking."

    "We're going to end up with terrorists but, above all, people in real misery."

    "This is our fault."

    When put to him that the UK tried to work with allies to continue a presence in Afghanistan, he said: "It seems to me very difficult to believe that you could not convince France, Turkey, Germany, the United Kingdom to put together a force of 2,500 soldiers, which is very small."

    Asked about foreign aid cuts, Stewart added: "It's crazy, totally crazy. You can't have it both ways. You can't remove your troops and throw Afghanistan back into the Middle Ages affecting millions of lives and destroying 20 years of progress and not feel a moral obligation."


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1426094581830017026

    As I understand it it was the US who have withdrawn leaving no other option for the UK

    And I very much doubt there is public appetite for UK involvement with another indeterminate foreign military involvement
    Unless you're HYUFD!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852

    felix said:

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    The Ayrshire result was not “spectacular” at all: the Tories just picked up most of the Ind votes, as he was formerly a Tory.

    Dalry and West Kilbride results
    Results are for first-preference votes

    CONSERVATIVE: 2016 votes (53.5%) +31.3
    SNP: 1292 votes (34.3%) + 10.5
    LABOUR: 305 votes (8.1%) -0.3
    LIBDEM: 58 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    SOCIALIST LABOUR: 57 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    INDEPENDENT: 42 votes (1.1%) +0.6

    Overall turnout 36.3% (-15.7)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19511703.dalry-west-kilbride-tories-claim-north-ayrshire-by-election-win/
    Come off it, Stuart. The Tory vote share was up over 30% to 53%. In 2017 they got 22%. In 2012 it was less than 10%. Regardless of the influence of Independent candidates, it shows that the toxicity of the Tory brand has somewhat diminished, to say the least.
    Two SNP posters piling in to rubbish the result tells you all you need to know.
    What does a migrant Tory piling in from the Costa del Sol tell us?
    Notd to mention two Tories showing a complete uninterest in analysing the results in a sensible way.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,020

    DougSeal said:



    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.

    Before we moved to Canterbury in 1984 my family lived in Berkshire, 10 miles from USAF Greenham Common, and 5 miles from the HM's Atomic Research Facility at Aldermaston. We too kept saying "if Berkshire were in England, or in the Home Counties, those evil bastard English would never have put these dangerous nuclear things here".

    I dunno, a successful nuclear attack in the 80s would have made thousands of pounds of improvements to Reading.
    And as for Slough...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,303

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    The literal reason for locating the original Polaris in Scotland was geography. It is quite clear in the various minutes and documents preserved at Kew.

    Simply, Polaris had a limited range. That meant that to reach its targets in the USSR, the submarines needed to be in the Arctic, near the edge of the ice cap. This was a fundamental limit of missile technology of the time.

    The other issue was that by far the noisiest part of a nuclear submarine was the reactor cooling pumps. At very low power levels these could be turned off - limiting the submarine to 2-4 knots.

    The time taken for a submarine to deploy from Portsmouth to its patrol zone at walking speed (essentially) would mean that the transit would take weeks. All this added up to needing 5 submarines to keep at least one on patrol.

    By shifting the main operating base to Scotland, the time to get on patrol station was cut massively. Which in turn allowed the reduction of the required force to 4 submarines.

    Trident doesn't have the limited range, and the submarines are essentially silent at 15-20 knots. The reason for continuing to base the submarines in Scotland was that it was cheaper than building a new base elsewhere.
    Wasn't there another issue? If you had a base (say) at Plymouth, it would be easy for an enemy to camp a submarine or two outside and then trail them. Faslane has a whole series of channels and islands to lose the enemy in once you get past Kintyre. And the surrounding land allows easier detection of enemy submarines.
    yes - but the main reason was the ability to drop the number of submarines to 4... which saved a vast amount of money.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852

    DougSeal said:



    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.

    Before we moved to Canterbury in 1984 my family lived in Berkshire, 10 miles from USAF Greenham Common, and 5 miles from the HM's Atomic Research Facility at Aldermaston. We too kept saying "if Berkshire were in England, or in the Home Counties, those evil bastard English would never have put these dangerous nuclear things here".

    I dunno, a successful nuclear attack in the 80s would have made thousands of pounds of improvements to Reading.
    And as for Slough...
    The poem is actually worth rereading -in fairness it was written in 1937 and Slough is allegedly "much improved today":

    "Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough!
    It isn't fit for humans now,
    There isn't grass to graze a cow ..."

    http://www-cdr.stanford.edu/intuition/Slough.html
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,595

    mwadams said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    James Anderson moves to 625 test wickets.
    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/93276.html

    Makes the Indian openers' innings look even better.
    ...626...
    40 to go.
    It took me too long to figure that out. "Surely it is 83 (Shane Warne) to go?" I thought...
  • mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    James Anderson moves to 625 test wickets.
    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/93276.html

    Makes the Indian openers' innings look even better.
    ...626...
    40 to go.
    It took me too long to figure that out. "Surely it is 83 (Shane Warne) to go?" I thought...
    I really want him to beat Murali's record.

    Boils my piss that a chucker is at the top of the charts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,048

    Scott_xP said:

    Former international development secretary Rory Stewart tells @SkyNews there will be millions of Afghans in "horrifying conditions".

    "It's going to be heartbreaking."

    "We're going to end up with terrorists but, above all, people in real misery."

    "This is our fault."

    When put to him that the UK tried to work with allies to continue a presence in Afghanistan, he said: "It seems to me very difficult to believe that you could not convince France, Turkey, Germany, the United Kingdom to put together a force of 2,500 soldiers, which is very small."

    Asked about foreign aid cuts, Stewart added: "It's crazy, totally crazy. You can't have it both ways. You can't remove your troops and throw Afghanistan back into the Middle Ages affecting millions of lives and destroying 20 years of progress and not feel a moral obligation."


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1426094581830017026

    As I understand it it was the US who have withdrawn leaving no other option for the UK

    And I very much doubt there is public appetite for UK involvement with another indeterminate foreign military involvement
    Unless you're HYUFD!
    For the moment.

    If Afghanistan becomes another hub for terrorist training camps and another major terrorist attack planned from Afghanistan leads to the deaths of thousands of civilians in a major UK or US city they might change their minds
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Carnyx said:

    felix said:

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    The Ayrshire result was not “spectacular” at all: the Tories just picked up most of the Ind votes, as he was formerly a Tory.

    Dalry and West Kilbride results
    Results are for first-preference votes

    CONSERVATIVE: 2016 votes (53.5%) +31.3
    SNP: 1292 votes (34.3%) + 10.5
    LABOUR: 305 votes (8.1%) -0.3
    LIBDEM: 58 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    SOCIALIST LABOUR: 57 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    INDEPENDENT: 42 votes (1.1%) +0.6

    Overall turnout 36.3% (-15.7)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19511703.dalry-west-kilbride-tories-claim-north-ayrshire-by-election-win/
    Come off it, Stuart. The Tory vote share was up over 30% to 53%. In 2017 they got 22%. In 2012 it was less than 10%. Regardless of the influence of Independent candidates, it shows that the toxicity of the Tory brand has somewhat diminished, to say the least.
    Two SNP posters piling in to rubbish the result tells you all you need to know.
    It's surporising how few people seem to realise that plus/minus changes in the by elections in Scottish multimember seats versus the original elections are not as simple to understand as those in single seat constituencies - in this case it is definitely a good LD result at Wick, but without local knowledge of the 'Independents' it's almost impossible to know what is going on.
    We know who won, the percentage increase in their vote and who lost. It makes clear that here at least Tory voters were not at all shy...unless you think they could have done even better..
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,090
    edited August 2021
    Good afternoon

    Looks as if our very own nationalists are a bit tetchy over 2 lib dems and a conservative win last night in Scotland

    And they have reason to be tetchy as their case is threatened by the loss of income and jobs from oil and gas which has been the foundation of their policy for years

    BBC News - Oil: from bonanza to dilemma
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-58195442
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992
    Break: PM calling emergency COBRA meeting on deteriorating Afghanistan situation.
    https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1426175252095246344
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,303
    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    As I said earlier, not entirely sure where that leaves Berkshire (Aldermaston and, previously, Greenham Common) but, hey, why get in the way of a good grievance?
    Aldermaston isn't the base for the launch systems. It's not threatening other nations with immediate devastation, is it?

    And I had friends in Oxford in the early 1980s. They sure had a grievance about [edit] Greenham, believe me.
    In the event of war, they were all targets.

    Hell, the USSR planned to nuke New Zealand, despite their anti-nuclear thing. Just in case.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    DougSeal said:

    I'm with Hyufd on this. The 'War on terror' was about containment and control. And Biden's just given it all up.

    The War Against Terror was about taking control of oil-rich parts of the world. What do they care about control? Or terrorism for that matter - remember that the CIA literally created this monster to attack the Soviets.
    There was a review in the LRB the other week (i'll try and find it) about this. If the CIA devoted less time to its whizz-bang, James Bond, special/black ops type stuff (starting with the overthrow of Mosaddegh and continuing to the present day) and more time on actual intelligence gathering (notable failures including, but not limited to, 9/11) the world would not be in the mess it is in today.
    There are entire histories written of the CIA which suggest that the world would be a better place, to the benefit of the US, had it never existed.
    +1
    Edmund Burke once gave a scathing speech in parliament about the East India Company. One of his main points was how imperial control over Indians created a class of EIC political administrators with an autocratic mindset, who then returned home to Britain and saw the British population in a similar light. Often they used the money and connections to gain seats in parliament. Tyranny in India was a threat to liberty in Great Britain.

    I can't help but think the CIA and their actions in Latin America and the Islamic world have done the same to the US. The preference for torture and renditions of foreigners under the Neocons has morphed into a willingness to use violence against political opponents in the US. Hence the storming of the Capitol.

    Except Trump is not a neocon, it is anti Trump Republicans like Bush, Romney and Bolton and the late John McCain who are neocons.

    Even Hillary Clinton is more neocon than Trump
    McCain was never neocon. He was strongly disliked by them. Nor is Romney a neocon.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    As I said earlier, not entirely sure where that leaves Berkshire (Aldermaston and, previously, Greenham Common) but, hey, why get in the way of a good grievance?
    Aldermaston isn't the base for the launch systems. It's not threatening other nations with immediate devastation, is it?

    And I had friends in Oxford in the early 1980s. They sure had a grievance about [edit] Greenham, believe me.
    I was born in 1974 and lived near Reading in the early 80s (we moved to Canterbury in Oct 1984) and some of my childhood memories, shortly after I learned what Nukes were at about age 8, involved worrying myself to sleep at night imagining the rumble of planes coming into Heathrow overhead were cruise missions.

    Aldermaston’s where they construct the means for threatening other nations with immediate devastation. It is therefore as much of a target, and only marginally less of a danger in and of itself, than the Trident base.

    It’s the imagined grievance of the English only placing the Scots in harms way that, given my childhood paranoia, irks me.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,369

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    James Anderson moves to 625 test wickets.
    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/93276.html

    Makes the Indian openers' innings look even better.
    ...626...
    40 to go.
    It took me too long to figure that out. "Surely it is 83 (Shane Warne) to go?" I thought...
    I really want him to beat Murali's record.

    Boils my piss that a chucker is at the top of the charts.
    Jimmy needs to score 16 more runs to have scored more Test runs than Muralitharan.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,048
    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    DougSeal said:

    I'm with Hyufd on this. The 'War on terror' was about containment and control. And Biden's just given it all up.

    The War Against Terror was about taking control of oil-rich parts of the world. What do they care about control? Or terrorism for that matter - remember that the CIA literally created this monster to attack the Soviets.
    There was a review in the LRB the other week (i'll try and find it) about this. If the CIA devoted less time to its whizz-bang, James Bond, special/black ops type stuff (starting with the overthrow of Mosaddegh and continuing to the present day) and more time on actual intelligence gathering (notable failures including, but not limited to, 9/11) the world would not be in the mess it is in today.
    There are entire histories written of the CIA which suggest that the world would be a better place, to the benefit of the US, had it never existed.
    +1
    Edmund Burke once gave a scathing speech in parliament about the East India Company. One of his main points was how imperial control over Indians created a class of EIC political administrators with an autocratic mindset, who then returned home to Britain and saw the British population in a similar light. Often they used the money and connections to gain seats in parliament. Tyranny in India was a threat to liberty in Great Britain.

    I can't help but think the CIA and their actions in Latin America and the Islamic world have done the same to the US. The preference for torture and renditions of foreigners under the Neocons has morphed into a willingness to use violence against political opponents in the US. Hence the storming of the Capitol.

    Except Trump is not a neocon, it is anti Trump Republicans like Bush, Romney and Bolton and the late John McCain who are neocons.

    Even Hillary Clinton is more neocon than Trump
    McCain was never neocon. He was strongly disliked by them. Nor is Romney a neocon.
    McCain wanted to keep troops in Afghanistan permanently and supported the Iraq War and bombing Iran and even action against Assad, of course he was a neocon.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7s5pT3Rris
    https://www.npr.org/2015/10/07/446499466/sen-mccain-expects-a-permanent-u-s-presence-in-afghanistan

    Romney also opposes the Afghanistan withdrawal
    https://twitter.com/SenatorRomney/status/1425528461628776448?s=20
  • Jesus Fucking Christ.

    At our work 2FA is mandatory yet it appears at the top of the government it is not.

    Has MBS been whatsapping the PM again?

    Cabinet Secretary Simon Case reveals to Labour: “The Government Security Group recently provided advice on how to secure devices using two-factor authentication in response to hackers using fake messages to access WhatsApp.”


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1426181421975183364
  • eekeek Posts: 28,377

    Jesus Fucking Christ.

    At our work 2FA is mandatory yet it appears at the top of the government it is not.

    Has MBS been whatsapping the PM again?

    Cabinet Secretary Simon Case reveals to Labour: “The Government Security Group recently provided advice on how to secure devices using two-factor authentication in response to hackers using fake messages to access WhatsApp.”


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1426181421975183364

    At the top of most firms different rules apply.

    The number of times I've had to explain to senior management that they need to set an example....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852
    felix said:

    Carnyx said:

    felix said:

    slade said:

    Unexpected LD gain in Wick.

    Wick and East Caithness (Highland) by-election, first preferences:

    Lib Dem ~ 657 (27.3%, +23.6)
    Fernie (Ind) ~ 622 (25.8%, +18.8)
    SNP ~ 593 (24.6%, +12.9)
    Conservative ~ 523 (21.7%, +7.8)
    Libertarian ~ 16 (0.7%, +0.7)

    LD elected stage 5.


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1426147090321838081?s=20
    Bear in mind this ward is located in one of the just 12 Westminster seats held by the LibDems. The curious thing, really, is why they did quite so badly in the previous election. Good result for them though, and will encourage the sitting LibDem MP, Jamie Stone.

    Incidentally, the LibDems also gained a seat in Inverness, while the Scottish Tories had a pretty spectacular gain (from SNP) in Ayrshire. Not quite everything is going Nicola's way.
    The Ayrshire result was not “spectacular” at all: the Tories just picked up most of the Ind votes, as he was formerly a Tory.

    Dalry and West Kilbride results
    Results are for first-preference votes

    CONSERVATIVE: 2016 votes (53.5%) +31.3
    SNP: 1292 votes (34.3%) + 10.5
    LABOUR: 305 votes (8.1%) -0.3
    LIBDEM: 58 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    SOCIALIST LABOUR: 57 votes (1.5%) +1.5
    INDEPENDENT: 42 votes (1.1%) +0.6

    Overall turnout 36.3% (-15.7)

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19511703.dalry-west-kilbride-tories-claim-north-ayrshire-by-election-win/
    Come off it, Stuart. The Tory vote share was up over 30% to 53%. In 2017 they got 22%. In 2012 it was less than 10%. Regardless of the influence of Independent candidates, it shows that the toxicity of the Tory brand has somewhat diminished, to say the least.
    Two SNP posters piling in to rubbish the result tells you all you need to know.
    It's surporising how few people seem to realise that plus/minus changes in the by elections in Scottish multimember seats versus the original elections are not as simple to understand as those in single seat constituencies - in this case it is definitely a good LD result at Wick, but without local knowledge of the 'Independents' it's almost impossible to know what is going on.
    We know who won, the percentage increase in their vote and who lost. It makes clear that here at least Tory voters were not at all shy...unless you think they could have done even better..
    https://ballotbox.scot/dwk-by-election-2021

    The last main election, there were 1 Tory and 5 Independents, one of whom was a Tory anyway (he had just resigned from the party) so you would expect to get, this time round, a vote of somethijng like the Tory, the Tory Independent, and a bit of the other Independents of whom two were obviously fairly serious candidates - which is 23.8 + 22.2. plus a bit of (11.7 + 8.2) - which is 46 plus how generous you are feeling in the way of a dollop out of 19.9: and one doesn't have to be very generous to get 53.5 out of that. As I say, it's very hard to interpret without local knowledge of the varioous independents, and turnout is a factor, but the salient feature is indeed that the split Tory vote was unsplit this time round. Which is exactly what Stuart said. Beyond that the SNP got more, but I would hesitate to conclude much from that because of the uncertainties.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,625
    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    As I said earlier, not entirely sure where that leaves Berkshire (Aldermaston and, previously, Greenham Common) but, hey, why get in the way of a good grievance?
    Aldermaston isn't the base for the launch systems. It's not threatening other nations with immediate devastation, is it?

    And I had friends in Oxford in the early 1980s. They sure had a grievance about [edit] Greenham, believe me.
    I was born in 1974 and lived near Reading in the early 80s (we moved to Canterbury in Oct 1984) and some of my childhood memories, shortly after I learned what Nukes were at about age 8, involved worrying myself to sleep at night imagining the rumble of planes coming into Heathrow overhead were cruise missions.

    Aldermaston’s where they construct the means for threatening other nations with immediate devastation. It is therefore as much of a target, and only marginally less of a danger in and of itself, than the Trident base.

    It’s the imagined grievance of the English only placing the Scots in harms way that, given my childhood paranoia, irks me.
    A schoolfriend of Mrs J used to live in an apartment block very close to the Turkish MOD's main HQ in Ankara. They were well aware that if there was ever a war - even a conventional one - they might well become collateral. Given Turkish internal and external politics, war was not exactly a remote chance.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    HYUFD said:

    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    DougSeal said:

    I'm with Hyufd on this. The 'War on terror' was about containment and control. And Biden's just given it all up.

    The War Against Terror was about taking control of oil-rich parts of the world. What do they care about control? Or terrorism for that matter - remember that the CIA literally created this monster to attack the Soviets.
    There was a review in the LRB the other week (i'll try and find it) about this. If the CIA devoted less time to its whizz-bang, James Bond, special/black ops type stuff (starting with the overthrow of Mosaddegh and continuing to the present day) and more time on actual intelligence gathering (notable failures including, but not limited to, 9/11) the world would not be in the mess it is in today.
    There are entire histories written of the CIA which suggest that the world would be a better place, to the benefit of the US, had it never existed.
    +1
    Edmund Burke once gave a scathing speech in parliament about the East India Company. One of his main points was how imperial control over Indians created a class of EIC political administrators with an autocratic mindset, who then returned home to Britain and saw the British population in a similar light. Often they used the money and connections to gain seats in parliament. Tyranny in India was a threat to liberty in Great Britain.

    I can't help but think the CIA and their actions in Latin America and the Islamic world have done the same to the US. The preference for torture and renditions of foreigners under the Neocons has morphed into a willingness to use violence against political opponents in the US. Hence the storming of the Capitol.

    Except Trump is not a neocon, it is anti Trump Republicans like Bush, Romney and Bolton and the late John McCain who are neocons.

    Even Hillary Clinton is more neocon than Trump
    McCain was never neocon. He was strongly disliked by them. Nor is Romney a neocon.
    McCain wanted to keep troops in Afghanistan permanently and supported the Iraq War and bombing Iran and even action against Assad, of course he was a neocon.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7s5pT3Rris
    https://www.npr.org/2015/10/07/446499466/sen-mccain-expects-a-permanent-u-s-presence-in-afghanistan

    Romney also opposes the Afghanistan withdrawal
    https://twitter.com/SenatorRomney/status/1425528461628776448?s=20
    McCain never found a war he didn't support. Romney ran for president on 20% annual budget increases for the military.
  • eek said:

    Jesus Fucking Christ.

    At our work 2FA is mandatory yet it appears at the top of the government it is not.

    Has MBS been whatsapping the PM again?

    Cabinet Secretary Simon Case reveals to Labour: “The Government Security Group recently provided advice on how to secure devices using two-factor authentication in response to hackers using fake messages to access WhatsApp.”


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1426181421975183364

    At the top of most firms different rules apply.

    The number of times I've had to explain to senior management that they need to set an example....
    We sack people for not persistently following 2FA rules.

    This working from home malarkey has driven me up the wall with security issues it raises.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    DougSeal said:

    I'm with Hyufd on this. The 'War on terror' was about containment and control. And Biden's just given it all up.

    The War Against Terror was about taking control of oil-rich parts of the world. What do they care about control? Or terrorism for that matter - remember that the CIA literally created this monster to attack the Soviets.
    There was a review in the LRB the other week (i'll try and find it) about this. If the CIA devoted less time to its whizz-bang, James Bond, special/black ops type stuff (starting with the overthrow of Mosaddegh and continuing to the present day) and more time on actual intelligence gathering (notable failures including, but not limited to, 9/11) the world would not be in the mess it is in today.
    There are entire histories written of the CIA which suggest that the world would be a better place, to the benefit of the US, had it never existed.
    +1
    Edmund Burke once gave a scathing speech in parliament about the East India Company. One of his main points was how imperial control over Indians created a class of EIC political administrators with an autocratic mindset, who then returned home to Britain and saw the British population in a similar light. Often they used the money and connections to gain seats in parliament. Tyranny in India was a threat to liberty in Great Britain.

    I can't help but think the CIA and their actions in Latin America and the Islamic world have done the same to the US. The preference for torture and renditions of foreigners under the Neocons has morphed into a willingness to use violence against political opponents in the US. Hence the storming of the Capitol.

    Except Trump is not a neocon, it is anti Trump Republicans like Bush, Romney and Bolton and the late John McCain who are neocons.

    Even Hillary Clinton is more neocon than Trump
    Yes, neoconservatives were focused on using violence to coerce foreigners. Trump is apathetic to that but is focused on using violence to coerce Americans. The point is that he was shaped by the general mindset of Manichean struggle and violence pushed out by Fox and others.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852
    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    As I said earlier, not entirely sure where that leaves Berkshire (Aldermaston and, previously, Greenham Common) but, hey, why get in the way of a good grievance?
    Aldermaston isn't the base for the launch systems. It's not threatening other nations with immediate devastation, is it?

    And I had friends in Oxford in the early 1980s. They sure had a grievance about [edit] Greenham, believe me.
    I was born in 1974 and lived near Reading in the early 80s (we moved to Canterbury in Oct 1984) and some of my childhood memories, shortly after I learned what Nukes were at about age 8, involved worrying myself to sleep at night imagining the rumble of planes coming into Heathrow overhead were cruise missions.

    Aldermaston’s where they construct the means for threatening other nations with immediate devastation. It is therefore as much of a target, and only marginally less of a danger in and of itself, than the Trident base.

    It’s the imagined grievance of the English only placing the Scots in harms way that, given my childhood paranoia, irks me.
    I don't think anyone is saying 'only'. Or that it is the English who are doing it. It's the UK governments.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,595

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    James Anderson moves to 625 test wickets.
    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/93276.html

    Makes the Indian openers' innings look even better.
    ...626...
    40 to go.
    It took me too long to figure that out. "Surely it is 83 (Shane Warne) to go?" I thought...
    I really want him to beat Murali's record.

    Boils my piss that a chucker is at the top of the charts.
    Jimmy needs to score 16 more runs to have scored more Test runs than Muralitharan.
    One more catch, and three more not-outs for 100 of each.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,440
    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    As I said earlier, not entirely sure where that leaves Berkshire (Aldermaston and, previously, Greenham Common) but, hey, why get in the way of a good grievance?
    Aldermaston isn't the base for the launch systems. It's not threatening other nations with immediate devastation, is it?

    And I had friends in Oxford in the early 1980s. They sure had a grievance about [edit] Greenham, believe me.
    I was born in 1974 and lived near Reading in the early 80s (we moved to Canterbury in Oct 1984) and some of my childhood memories, shortly after I learned what Nukes were at about age 8, involved worrying myself to sleep at night imagining the rumble of planes coming into Heathrow overhead were cruise missions.

    Aldermaston’s where they construct the means for threatening other nations with immediate devastation. It is therefore as much of a target, and only marginally less of a danger in and of itself, than the Trident base.

    It’s the imagined grievance of the English only placing the Scots in harms way that, given my childhood paranoia, irks me.
    As a child I lived on Canvey Island and for as long as I could realise what was happening, until I was 7 the rumble of planes overhead in the early evening was threatening, as German bombers headed up the Thames towards London.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    eek said:

    Jesus Fucking Christ.

    At our work 2FA is mandatory yet it appears at the top of the government it is not.

    Has MBS been whatsapping the PM again?

    Cabinet Secretary Simon Case reveals to Labour: “The Government Security Group recently provided advice on how to secure devices using two-factor authentication in response to hackers using fake messages to access WhatsApp.”


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1426181421975183364

    At the top of most firms different rules apply.

    The number of times I've had to explain to senior management that they need to set an example....
    We sack people for not persistently following 2FA rules.

    This working from home malarkey has driven me up the wall with security issues it raises.
    How does this particular 2FA issue with whatsapp work?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,794
    Exciting Polybius update: the Oxford version has one more chapter in the start of Book XII, dealing with the lotus shrub.

    And, on that bombshell, I must be off.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,644
    edited August 2021

    eek said:

    Jesus Fucking Christ.

    At our work 2FA is mandatory yet it appears at the top of the government it is not.

    Has MBS been whatsapping the PM again?

    Cabinet Secretary Simon Case reveals to Labour: “The Government Security Group recently provided advice on how to secure devices using two-factor authentication in response to hackers using fake messages to access WhatsApp.”


    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1426181421975183364

    At the top of most firms different rules apply.

    The number of times I've had to explain to senior management that they need to set an example....
    We sack people for not persistently following 2FA rules.

    This working from home malarkey has driven me up the wall with security issues it raises.
    How does this particular 2FA issue with whatsapp work?

    Jeff Bezos hack: Amazon boss's phone 'hacked by Saudi crown prince'

    Exclusive: investigation suggests Washington Post owner was targeted five months before murder of Jamal Khashoggi

    The Amazon billionaire Jeff Bezos had his mobile phone “hacked” in 2018 after receiving a WhatsApp message that had apparently been sent from the personal account of the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, sources have told the Guardian.

    The encrypted message from the number used by Mohammed bin Salman is believed to have included a malicious file that infiltrated the phone of the world’s richest man, according to the results of a digital forensic analysis.

    This analysis found it “highly probable” that the intrusion into the phone was triggered by an infected video file sent from the account of the Saudi heir to Bezos, the owner of the Washington Post.

    The two men had been having a seemingly friendly WhatsApp exchange when, on 1 May of that year, the unsolicited file was sent, according to sources who spoke to the Guardian on the condition of anonymity.


    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jan/21/amazon-boss-jeff-bezoss-phone-hacked-by-saudi-crown-prince

    There's also one going around that buggers up your account and takes possession of it via the WhatsApp on desktop facility.

    The thing is, you don't know it has happened as it appears WhatsApp on your phone is working fine.

    But if you have 2FA on it won't work.
  • NEW THREAD

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    Well, yes. If Scotland was a landlocked country, you probably wouldn't have a submarine base. ;) But the deep lochs and easy access to the North Atlantic also make it rather useful.

    BTW, is 'Jock' now an acceptable word to use for our Scottish friends?
    They could have been based at Devonport which would have avoided the necessity of driving nuclear warheads 400 miles up and down the country. The selection of Faslane (and RNAD Coulport) definitely had an element of damage limitation for English population centres to it.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28009977
    The dockyard is also in a densely populated area, which poses a safety risk. There are about 166,000 people living within 5km of the Devonport base, compared with about 5,200 within that distance of Faslane and fewer close to Coulport. The city of Plymouth has about 250,000 residents and is within 3.5km of the dockyard. Glasgow has a population of about 600,000, but it is 25km away from Faslane.
This discussion has been closed.