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I am shocked by this poll finding – politicalbetting.com

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,778
    edited August 2021

    Neil Oliver on GB News: he won’t let his teenage children take Covid19 vaccine.

    (The age of majority is 16 in Scotland. But does Oliver live in his home country?)

    Stirling.

    Not clear whether the former guardian of Scottish culture (at NTS) has children of an actually relevant age or if he is just getting out the same old Airfix Spitfires to play with.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954
    edited August 2021

    Neil Oliver on GB News: he won’t let his teenage children take Covid19 vaccine.

    (The age of majority is 16 in Scotland. But does Oliver live in his home country?)

    Gillick Competence and the Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991 mean that the position is basically the same both sides of the border on the question of teenage consent to vaccines.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,778

    Carnyx said:

    YoungTurk said:

    If we wanted to make it a tatartodozen of plebiscites this century in England, after Brexit and AV, why not hold a referendum on building Hadrian's Wall 10 foot higher English independence? Winning the World Cup in 1966 as a non-independent country still smarts.

    Rebuilding Hadrian's Wall would transfer Bigg Market on a Friday night to Scotland. I know we have the Byres Road in Glasgow, and Coogait in Edinburgh, but really.
    Or we could extend England as far as the Antonine Wall.

    After all, Edinburgh was part of Northumbria for a while.
    But you don't want to go down that road because some of what is now England was part of Denmark not much later.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    Combining the two topics du jour: what about an UK supported Edinburgh* bid to host the Olympics in 2036?

    (*or Glasgow, though I think Edinburgh carries more international clout.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Any chance we can move on from the foundational debates about Scottish Independence for a bit? No? Okay. Just asking.

    It's actually been quite interesting, because of the point made by Foxy. The implication is: if you don't accept referenda on demand as a means of change then you have to accept parliamentary representation. At what point does refusal fo a referendum force acceptance of the SNP majority at Westminster as automatic start to negotiations for independence implementation?

    Yet under the so-called constitution no government or parliament at Westminster can bind its successors (except in the case of external treaties, etc.). So there is at the same time a clear time limit for any government's refusal of a referendum.

    The two aren't easily reconciled.
    No you don't, the Spanish government has easily refused the Catalan Nationalists even one referendum, the Nationalist majority in Catalan MPs is also irrelevant to Madrid. Time to play hardball, no concessions whatsoever to the Nationalists from this Tory government. Sturgeon unlike Salmond is so weak unlike the Catalan nationalists she has ruled out a wildcat referendum and UDI
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,724
    edited August 2021
    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Intriguingly, the final medal table is a pretty good proxy for The Five Greatest Countries on Earth

    USA
    China
    Japan
    Great Britain
    Russia

    That’s basically the UN Security Council right there. The five most powerful and influential nations, the five most culturally dominant countries, with the most important languages, the best universities, the grandest art, the most epic history, the biggest and bravest empires, basically the flower of humanity.

    Beneath them come the funny little EU provinces - ‘Italy’, ‘France’ - pretty and well-meaning but not of great seriousness. Below them there’s just a lot of places no one has ever heard of, with weird pickled veg for breakfast.

    Odd how sport mimics and underlines reality.

    I’d much rather be part of a Switzerland - small, prosperous, rule of law, democratic - than a China or a Russia.

    Switzerland isn't in the EU and is terribly dull. I've lived there and been more than most other people, unsurprisingly given that my wife is Swiss.
    I used to spend time in Lutzern and Grindelwald when I was younger. Much more than a week now and it’s hard work…
    Why is it hard work?
    It’s very pedestrian and cut off from the rest of the world. Nice for a break but - for me at least - I get antsy after a while unless I’m skiing or climbing.
    I've been skiing three times, when I was 13, 14 and 16, each time with my school. I never thought I wouldn't do it again for so long. Switzerland once and Austria twice. Useless facts.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,546
    🛒The shortage of qualified drivers has reached crisis point, with ministers now examining every means possible to keep Britain supplied https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/08/army-standby-restock-britains-shelves-amid-truck-driver-shortage/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1628438506

    Any EU countries got the army on standby to deliver groceries?
    https://twitter.com/UB5simon/status/1424352273061273600
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,802
    Latvia warns of risk of ‘incident’ between Nato and Russia

    Belarus ‘border crisis’ and military exercise could cause ‘misunderstanding’, says foreign minister

    https://www.ft.com/content/d8566dc5-6818-4d9b-830b-eedcb9c8103e
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    edited August 2021
    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,866
    Alba is once again demonstrating that it was/is a Twitter only party

    https://twitter.com/davieclegg/status/1424456042059010051?s=19
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,946

    Aslan said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Earlier I posted an alternative Olympic medal table where only medals in different sports were counted. I actually think some of the groupings of events into sports is unfair (especially track and field), so I've regrouped the following:

    Remove BMX freestyle from cycling
    Split up Canoe sprint and slalom
    Combine multi-discipline events: triathlon, modern pentathlon, heptathlon and decathlon
    Split track and field into:
    Walking
    Running (800m, 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, and Marathon)
    Sprinting (100m, 200m, 400m, 100/110m hurdles, 400m hurdles, and relays)
    Jumping (long, high, triple)
    Pole vaulting
    Throwing (discuss, shot, hammer, and javelin)

    This gives the following table (diff is to the official table):

    Rank, Diff, Team, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Total
    1. (0), United States, 17, 18, 15, 30
    2. (0), China, 13, 14, 10, 21
    3. (0), Japan, 11, 13, 13, 20
    4. (+1), ROC, 10, 13, 10, 19
    5. (-1), Great Britain, 9, 12, 18, 21
    6. (+3), Germany, 8, 10, 9, 17
    7. (+3), Italy, 8, 7, 11, 18
    8. (0), France, 7, 8, 8, 15
    9. (-3), Australia, 7, 5, 12, 19
    10. (+1), Canada, 7, 4, 8, 13
    11. (+1), Brazil, 7, 4, 6, 13
    12. (-5), Netherlands, 5, 7, 9, 12
    13. (+2), Hungary, 4, 5, 6, 9
    14. (+4), Czech Republic, 4, 4, 3, 7
    15. (+5), Norway, 4, 2, 2, 8
    16. (+6), Spain, 3, 7, 5, 14
    17. (0), Poland, 3, 5, 4, 8
    18. (+5), Sweden, 3, 5, 0, 6
    19. (-6), New Zealand, 3, 4, 6, 11
    19. (-3), South Korea, 3, 4, 6, 8
    21. (-7), Cuba, 3, 3, 5, 8
    22. (+3), Denmark, 3, 3, 3, 8
    23. (+3), Croatia, 3, 3, 2, 5
    24. (0), Switzerland, 3, 2, 5, 6
    25. (+2), Iran, 3, 2, 1, 4
    26. (+2), Serbia, 3, 1, 5, 7
    27. (+2), Belgium, 3, 1, 3, 7
    28. (+2), Bulgaria, 3, 1, 1, 5
    28. (+3), Slovenia, 3, 1, 1, 4
    30. (+2), Uzbekistan, 3, 0, 2, 5
    31. (+3), Chinese Taipei, 2, 4, 6, 10
    32. (+3), Turkey, 2, 2, 4, 6
    33. (0), Georgia, 2, 2, 1, 3
    34. (+2), Greece, 2, 1, 1, 4
    35. (+3), Ecuador, 2, 1, 0, 2
    36. (+3), Ireland, 2, 0, 2, 2
    37. (+4), Qatar, 2, 0, 1, 3
    38. (+6), Ukraine, 1, 6, 10, 12
    39. (+9), India, 1, 2, 4, 6
    40. (+5), Belarus, 1, 2, 3, 4
    41. (+9), Slovakia, 1, 2, 1, 4
    42. (+4), Romania, 1, 2, 0, 2
    42. (+4), Venezuela, 1, 2, 0, 3
    42. (+10), South Africa, 1, 2, 0, 2
    45. (+8), Austria, 1, 1, 5, 6
    46. (+3), Hong Kong, 1, 1, 3, 5
    46. (+8), Egypt, 1, 1, 3, 4
    48. (+7), Indonesia, 1, 1, 2, 2
    48. (+8), Portugal, 1, 1, 2, 3
    50. (-31), Kenya, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-29), Jamaica, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-14), Uganda, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (0), Philippines, 1, 1, 1, 2
    50. (+6), Ethiopia, 1, 1, 1, 1
    55. (+3), Tunisia, 1, 1, 0, 2
    56. (-17), Israel, 1, 0, 2, 3
    57. (+2), Estonia, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Fiji, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Latvia, 1, 0, 1, 2
    57. (+2), Thailand, 1, 0, 1, 2
    61. (-19), Bahamas, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (-19), Kosovo, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Bermuda, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Morocco, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Puerto Rico, 1, 0, 0, 1

    I think this better reflects how good the Americans are. And we can take heart from tying China in terms of medalling in different sports.

    Seems like utter bollocks to me. Why split athletics like that? Why combine modern pentathlon, triathlon , heptathlon and decathlon? Why split canoe sprint and slalom (and yet keep equestrian dressage with jumping)?

    Surely you could split it all up in whatever way to wished to make whatever point you were looking to make?
    I thought about equestrian, but I think the involvement of a horse means that it's fair enough to keep it altogether.

    I think the athletics deserves to be split up more because the disciplines are very different. The sprinting/running are more different than say the different distances in the swimming, in my opinion.

    The two types of canoeing seem completely different to me. Perhaps there's a case for sticking the canoe sprint with the rowing as they are a bit similar.
    Good points although think "fighting" should be more grouped - Judo,wrestling and Karate are simalar for instance.Also think diving is more gymnastics than swimming
    Diving is separate from swimming and I think it deserves to be its own category.

    I know little about the fighting sports and whether they are sufficiently similar to be grouped. My instinct is that they should be separate. As an aside, I think Taekwondo is the best of those types of sports.
    Having dressage as a sport is ridiculous.
    I tell you what , you try it and see how you get on.....
    With dressage, isn’t it how you fall off that counts?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    YoungTurk said:

    If we wanted to make it a tatartodozen of plebiscites this century in England, after Brexit and AV, why not hold a referendum on building Hadrian's Wall 10 foot higher English independence? Winning the World Cup in 1966 as a non-independent country still smarts.

    Rebuilding Hadrian's Wall would transfer Bigg Market on a Friday night to Scotland. I know we have the Byres Road in Glasgow, and Coogait in Edinburgh, but really.
    Or we could extend England as far as the Antonine Wall.

    After all, Edinburgh was part of Northumbria for a while.
    But you don't want to go down that road because some of what is now England was part of Denmark not much later.
    Some days I'd happily concede that England was still part of Normandy. The cuisine, the calvodos, and good Brie too!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,802

    Neil Oliver on GB News: he won’t let his teenage children take Covid19 vaccine.

    (The age of majority is 16 in Scotland. But does Oliver live in his home country?)

    What a total dick he is. He lives in Stirling according to wiki but I imagine Scotland would be glad to export him.
    If he lives in Stirling then any teenage children age 16 or over will make their own decision. None of his business.

    ‘Covid in Scotland: Drop-in vaccine clinics open for 16-17-year-olds’

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58128523.amp
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Earlier I posted an alternative Olympic medal table where only medals in different sports were counted. I actually think some of the groupings of events into sports is unfair (especially track and field), so I've regrouped the following:

    Remove BMX freestyle from cycling
    Split up Canoe sprint and slalom
    Combine multi-discipline events: triathlon, modern pentathlon, heptathlon and decathlon
    Split track and field into:
    Walking
    Running (800m, 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, and Marathon)
    Sprinting (100m, 200m, 400m, 100/110m hurdles, 400m hurdles, and relays)
    Jumping (long, high, triple)
    Pole vaulting
    Throwing (discuss, shot, hammer, and javelin)

    This gives the following table (diff is to the official table):

    Rank, Diff, Team, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Total
    1. (0), United States, 17, 18, 15, 30
    2. (0), China, 13, 14, 10, 21
    3. (0), Japan, 11, 13, 13, 20
    4. (+1), ROC, 10, 13, 10, 19
    5. (-1), Great Britain, 9, 12, 18, 21
    6. (+3), Germany, 8, 10, 9, 17
    7. (+3), Italy, 8, 7, 11, 18
    8. (0), France, 7, 8, 8, 15
    9. (-3), Australia, 7, 5, 12, 19
    10. (+1), Canada, 7, 4, 8, 13
    11. (+1), Brazil, 7, 4, 6, 13
    12. (-5), Netherlands, 5, 7, 9, 12
    13. (+2), Hungary, 4, 5, 6, 9
    14. (+4), Czech Republic, 4, 4, 3, 7
    15. (+5), Norway, 4, 2, 2, 8
    16. (+6), Spain, 3, 7, 5, 14
    17. (0), Poland, 3, 5, 4, 8
    18. (+5), Sweden, 3, 5, 0, 6
    19. (-6), New Zealand, 3, 4, 6, 11
    19. (-3), South Korea, 3, 4, 6, 8
    21. (-7), Cuba, 3, 3, 5, 8
    22. (+3), Denmark, 3, 3, 3, 8
    23. (+3), Croatia, 3, 3, 2, 5
    24. (0), Switzerland, 3, 2, 5, 6
    25. (+2), Iran, 3, 2, 1, 4
    26. (+2), Serbia, 3, 1, 5, 7
    27. (+2), Belgium, 3, 1, 3, 7
    28. (+2), Bulgaria, 3, 1, 1, 5
    28. (+3), Slovenia, 3, 1, 1, 4
    30. (+2), Uzbekistan, 3, 0, 2, 5
    31. (+3), Chinese Taipei, 2, 4, 6, 10
    32. (+3), Turkey, 2, 2, 4, 6
    33. (0), Georgia, 2, 2, 1, 3
    34. (+2), Greece, 2, 1, 1, 4
    35. (+3), Ecuador, 2, 1, 0, 2
    36. (+3), Ireland, 2, 0, 2, 2
    37. (+4), Qatar, 2, 0, 1, 3
    38. (+6), Ukraine, 1, 6, 10, 12
    39. (+9), India, 1, 2, 4, 6
    40. (+5), Belarus, 1, 2, 3, 4
    41. (+9), Slovakia, 1, 2, 1, 4
    42. (+4), Romania, 1, 2, 0, 2
    42. (+4), Venezuela, 1, 2, 0, 3
    42. (+10), South Africa, 1, 2, 0, 2
    45. (+8), Austria, 1, 1, 5, 6
    46. (+3), Hong Kong, 1, 1, 3, 5
    46. (+8), Egypt, 1, 1, 3, 4
    48. (+7), Indonesia, 1, 1, 2, 2
    48. (+8), Portugal, 1, 1, 2, 3
    50. (-31), Kenya, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-29), Jamaica, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-14), Uganda, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (0), Philippines, 1, 1, 1, 2
    50. (+6), Ethiopia, 1, 1, 1, 1
    55. (+3), Tunisia, 1, 1, 0, 2
    56. (-17), Israel, 1, 0, 2, 3
    57. (+2), Estonia, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Fiji, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Latvia, 1, 0, 1, 2
    57. (+2), Thailand, 1, 0, 1, 2
    61. (-19), Bahamas, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (-19), Kosovo, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Bermuda, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Morocco, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Puerto Rico, 1, 0, 0, 1

    I think this better reflects how good the Americans are. And we can take heart from tying China in terms of medalling in different sports.

    Seems like utter bollocks to me. Why split athletics like that? Why combine modern pentathlon, triathlon , heptathlon and decathlon? Why split canoe sprint and slalom (and yet keep equestrian dressage with jumping)?

    Surely you could split it all up in whatever way to wished to make whatever point you were looking to make?
    I thought about equestrian, but I think the involvement of a horse means that it's fair enough to keep it altogether.

    I think the athletics deserves to be split up more because the disciplines are very different. The sprinting/running are more different than say the different distances in the swimming, in my opinion.

    The two types of canoeing seem completely different to me. Perhaps there's a case for sticking the canoe sprint with the rowing as they are a bit similar.
    Good points although think "fighting" should be more grouped - Judo,wrestling and Karate are simalar for instance.Also think diving is more gymnastics than swimming
    Diving is separate from swimming and I think it deserves to be its own category.

    I know little about the fighting sports and whether they are sufficiently similar to be grouped. My instinct is that they should be separate. As an aside, I think Taekwondo is the best of those types of sports.
    Having dressage as a sport is ridiculous.
    I tell you what , you try it and see how you get on.....
    With dressage, isn’t it how you fall off that counts?
    Nobody ever falls off in horse dancing, shirley?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,001
    edited August 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Aslan said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Earlier I posted an alternative Olympic medal table where only medals in different sports were counted. I actually think some of the groupings of events into sports is unfair (especially track and field), so I've regrouped the following:

    Remove BMX freestyle from cycling
    Split up Canoe sprint and slalom
    Combine multi-discipline events: triathlon, modern pentathlon, heptathlon and decathlon
    Split track and field into:
    Walking
    Running (800m, 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, and Marathon)
    Sprinting (100m, 200m, 400m, 100/110m hurdles, 400m hurdles, and relays)
    Jumping (long, high, triple)
    Pole vaulting
    Throwing (discuss, shot, hammer, and javelin)

    This gives the following table (diff is to the official table):

    Rank, Diff, Team, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Total
    1. (0), United States, 17, 18, 15, 30
    2. (0), China, 13, 14, 10, 21
    3. (0), Japan, 11, 13, 13, 20
    4. (+1), ROC, 10, 13, 10, 19
    5. (-1), Great Britain, 9, 12, 18, 21
    6. (+3), Germany, 8, 10, 9, 17
    7. (+3), Italy, 8, 7, 11, 18
    8. (0), France, 7, 8, 8, 15
    9. (-3), Australia, 7, 5, 12, 19
    10. (+1), Canada, 7, 4, 8, 13
    11. (+1), Brazil, 7, 4, 6, 13
    12. (-5), Netherlands, 5, 7, 9, 12
    13. (+2), Hungary, 4, 5, 6, 9
    14. (+4), Czech Republic, 4, 4, 3, 7
    15. (+5), Norway, 4, 2, 2, 8
    16. (+6), Spain, 3, 7, 5, 14
    17. (0), Poland, 3, 5, 4, 8
    18. (+5), Sweden, 3, 5, 0, 6
    19. (-6), New Zealand, 3, 4, 6, 11
    19. (-3), South Korea, 3, 4, 6, 8
    21. (-7), Cuba, 3, 3, 5, 8
    22. (+3), Denmark, 3, 3, 3, 8
    23. (+3), Croatia, 3, 3, 2, 5
    24. (0), Switzerland, 3, 2, 5, 6
    25. (+2), Iran, 3, 2, 1, 4
    26. (+2), Serbia, 3, 1, 5, 7
    27. (+2), Belgium, 3, 1, 3, 7
    28. (+2), Bulgaria, 3, 1, 1, 5
    28. (+3), Slovenia, 3, 1, 1, 4
    30. (+2), Uzbekistan, 3, 0, 2, 5
    31. (+3), Chinese Taipei, 2, 4, 6, 10
    32. (+3), Turkey, 2, 2, 4, 6
    33. (0), Georgia, 2, 2, 1, 3
    34. (+2), Greece, 2, 1, 1, 4
    35. (+3), Ecuador, 2, 1, 0, 2
    36. (+3), Ireland, 2, 0, 2, 2
    37. (+4), Qatar, 2, 0, 1, 3
    38. (+6), Ukraine, 1, 6, 10, 12
    39. (+9), India, 1, 2, 4, 6
    40. (+5), Belarus, 1, 2, 3, 4
    41. (+9), Slovakia, 1, 2, 1, 4
    42. (+4), Romania, 1, 2, 0, 2
    42. (+4), Venezuela, 1, 2, 0, 3
    42. (+10), South Africa, 1, 2, 0, 2
    45. (+8), Austria, 1, 1, 5, 6
    46. (+3), Hong Kong, 1, 1, 3, 5
    46. (+8), Egypt, 1, 1, 3, 4
    48. (+7), Indonesia, 1, 1, 2, 2
    48. (+8), Portugal, 1, 1, 2, 3
    50. (-31), Kenya, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-29), Jamaica, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-14), Uganda, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (0), Philippines, 1, 1, 1, 2
    50. (+6), Ethiopia, 1, 1, 1, 1
    55. (+3), Tunisia, 1, 1, 0, 2
    56. (-17), Israel, 1, 0, 2, 3
    57. (+2), Estonia, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Fiji, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Latvia, 1, 0, 1, 2
    57. (+2), Thailand, 1, 0, 1, 2
    61. (-19), Bahamas, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (-19), Kosovo, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Bermuda, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Morocco, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Puerto Rico, 1, 0, 0, 1

    I think this better reflects how good the Americans are. And we can take heart from tying China in terms of medalling in different sports.

    Seems like utter bollocks to me. Why split athletics like that? Why combine modern pentathlon, triathlon , heptathlon and decathlon? Why split canoe sprint and slalom (and yet keep equestrian dressage with jumping)?

    Surely you could split it all up in whatever way to wished to make whatever point you were looking to make?
    I thought about equestrian, but I think the involvement of a horse means that it's fair enough to keep it altogether.

    I think the athletics deserves to be split up more because the disciplines are very different. The sprinting/running are more different than say the different distances in the swimming, in my opinion.

    The two types of canoeing seem completely different to me. Perhaps there's a case for sticking the canoe sprint with the rowing as they are a bit similar.
    Good points although think "fighting" should be more grouped - Judo,wrestling and Karate are simalar for instance.Also think diving is more gymnastics than swimming
    Diving is separate from swimming and I think it deserves to be its own category.

    I know little about the fighting sports and whether they are sufficiently similar to be grouped. My instinct is that they should be separate. As an aside, I think Taekwondo is the best of those types of sports.
    Having dressage as a sport is ridiculous.
    If you have quasi-racist views as to the relative importance of different species, I suppose it is. If 2 human partnerships are allowed in sailing, why do you object to 1 human/1 horse combos elsewhere?
    Nah bollocks.

    Dressage is boring as fuck, artificial, and borderline abusive to the animal.

    Why not have performing seals or a chimps' tea party.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076

    Neil Oliver on GB News: he won’t let his teenage children take Covid19 vaccine.

    (The age of majority is 16 in Scotland. But does Oliver live in his home country?)

    What a total dick he is. He lives in Stirling according to wiki but I imagine Scotland would be glad to export him.
    If he lives in Stirling then any teenage children age 16 or over will make their own decision. None of his business.

    ‘Covid in Scotland: Drop-in vaccine clinics open for 16-17-year-olds’

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58128523.amp
    As I say, he's a total dick.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,648

    Neil Oliver on GB News: he won’t let his teenage children take Covid19 vaccine.

    (The age of majority is 16 in Scotland. But does Oliver live in his home country?)

    What a total dick he is. He lives in Stirling according to wiki but I imagine Scotland would be glad to export him.
    If he lives in Stirling then any teenage children age 16 or over will make their own decision. None of his business.

    ‘Covid in Scotland: Drop-in vaccine clinics open for 16-17-year-olds’

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58128523.amp
    I think it's the same in England, too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,946
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Bin Laden was killed in Pakistan by a commando raid. I don’t see how the war in Afghanistan had a large bearing on that. In fact, by driving him underground and turning the locals against the West it may have delayed his being located. In 2001 the Americans were privately briefing they believed he was dead, which tells me they didn’t know what the hell had happened to him.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,778

    Neil Oliver on GB News: he won’t let his teenage children take Covid19 vaccine.

    (The age of majority is 16 in Scotland. But does Oliver live in his home country?)

    What a total dick he is. He lives in Stirling according to wiki but I imagine Scotland would be glad to export him.
    If he lives in Stirling then any teenage children age 16 or over will make their own decision. None of his business.

    ‘Covid in Scotland: Drop-in vaccine clinics open for 16-17-year-olds’

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58128523.amp
    As I say, he's a total dick.
    In fairness we don't - and shouldn't - know how old his children are.

    But if they are 16 or over ...

    And if they are under 16 - then for other reasons ...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,798
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Although the 9/11 terrorists were trained in Florida, not Afghanistan.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,778
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Any chance we can move on from the foundational debates about Scottish Independence for a bit? No? Okay. Just asking.

    It's actually been quite interesting, because of the point made by Foxy. The implication is: if you don't accept referenda on demand as a means of change then you have to accept parliamentary representation. At what point does refusal fo a referendum force acceptance of the SNP majority at Westminster as automatic start to negotiations for independence implementation?

    Yet under the so-called constitution no government or parliament at Westminster can bind its successors (except in the case of external treaties, etc.). So there is at the same time a clear time limit for any government's refusal of a referendum.

    The two aren't easily reconciled.
    No you don't, the Spanish government has easily refused the Catalan Nationalists even one referendum, the Nationalist majority in Catalan MPs is also irrelevant to Madrid. Time to play hardball, no concessions whatsoever to the Nationalists from this Tory government. Sturgeon unlike Salmond is so weak unlike the Catalan nationalists she has ruled out a wildcat referendum and UDI
    Don't let me stop you from getting excited about grannies being smashed in the face for daring to vote.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,946

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Although the 9/11 terrorists were trained in Florida, not Afghanistan.
    Well, Florida is as we are repeatedly being told a hotbed of anti-Washington sentiment.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,778

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Although the 9/11 terrorists were trained in Florida, not Afghanistan.
    So we should bomb Florida?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    You live in a fantasy world of your own construction.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,946
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Although the 9/11 terrorists were trained in Florida, not Afghanistan.
    So we should bomb Florida?
    Well, it might eliminate the biggest danger to America if we did.

    But it would surely radicalise those violent elements among his followers into carrying out yet more terrorist attacks.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,013
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Any chance we can move on from the foundational debates about Scottish Independence for a bit? No? Okay. Just asking.

    It's actually been quite interesting, because of the point made by Foxy. The implication is: if you don't accept referenda on demand as a means of change then you have to accept parliamentary representation. At what point does refusal fo a referendum force acceptance of the SNP majority at Westminster as automatic start to negotiations for independence implementation?

    Yet under the so-called constitution no government or parliament at Westminster can bind its successors (except in the case of external treaties, etc.). So there is at the same time a clear time limit for any government's refusal of a referendum.

    The two aren't easily reconciled.
    No you don't, the Spanish government has easily refused the Catalan Nationalists even one referendum, the Nationalist majority in Catalan MPs is also irrelevant to Madrid. Time to play hardball, no concessions whatsoever to the Nationalists from this Tory government. Sturgeon unlike Salmond is so weak unlike the Catalan nationalists she has ruled out a wildcat referendum and UDI
    Don't let me stop you from getting excited about grannies being smashed in the face for daring to vote.
    The granny smashing seems to have worked, however.

    For the record, I am not recommending we send in the SAS to beat up the babushkas of Dundee, just noting it

    Even more startling, the EU has quietly accepted this, apparently
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,778

    HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    You live in a fantasy world of your own construction.
    Not to mention fiddling the numbers as part of that construction.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    edited August 2021
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Bin Laden was killed in Pakistan by a commando raid. I don’t see how the war in Afghanistan had a large bearing on that. In fact, by driving him underground and turning the locals against the West it may have delayed his being located. In 2001 the Americans were privately briefing they believed he was dead, which tells me they didn’t know what the hell had happened to him.
    Bin Laden only ended up in Pakistan for US special forces to kill him because the invasion forced him out of Afganistan.

    Had there been no invasion Bin Laden would still be alive in the Pakistan mountains now leading his training camps of terror to rain fire on the West.

    George W Bush may have made a mistake going in to Iraq (albeit it is now a democracy) but on Afghanistan he was right, to go in hard and crush the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Blair to his credit backed him to the hilt.

    Obama to be fair to him also followed suit and took the opportunity to kill Bin Laden.

    Biden and Harris it seems are weakly withdrawing troops and abandoning Afghans to their fate, no matter the cost to them or in future terrorist actions. It is shameful.

    Any future terrorist attacks on a western city can be blamed firmly on the Biden administration as can any future Taliban atrocities outside of their heartlands if they take full control.

    Mind you Boris should have been tougher too.

    It says something that the toughest western leader at the moment on taking on radical, extremist Islam is President Macron
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,884
    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Aslan said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Earlier I posted an alternative Olympic medal table where only medals in different sports were counted. I actually think some of the groupings of events into sports is unfair (especially track and field), so I've regrouped the following:

    Remove BMX freestyle from cycling
    Split up Canoe sprint and slalom
    Combine multi-discipline events: triathlon, modern pentathlon, heptathlon and decathlon
    Split track and field into:
    Walking
    Running (800m, 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, and Marathon)
    Sprinting (100m, 200m, 400m, 100/110m hurdles, 400m hurdles, and relays)
    Jumping (long, high, triple)
    Pole vaulting
    Throwing (discuss, shot, hammer, and javelin)

    This gives the following table (diff is to the official table):

    Rank, Diff, Team, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Total
    1. (0), United States, 17, 18, 15, 30
    2. (0), China, 13, 14, 10, 21
    3. (0), Japan, 11, 13, 13, 20
    4. (+1), ROC, 10, 13, 10, 19
    5. (-1), Great Britain, 9, 12, 18, 21
    6. (+3), Germany, 8, 10, 9, 17
    7. (+3), Italy, 8, 7, 11, 18
    8. (0), France, 7, 8, 8, 15
    9. (-3), Australia, 7, 5, 12, 19
    10. (+1), Canada, 7, 4, 8, 13
    11. (+1), Brazil, 7, 4, 6, 13
    12. (-5), Netherlands, 5, 7, 9, 12
    13. (+2), Hungary, 4, 5, 6, 9
    14. (+4), Czech Republic, 4, 4, 3, 7
    15. (+5), Norway, 4, 2, 2, 8
    16. (+6), Spain, 3, 7, 5, 14
    17. (0), Poland, 3, 5, 4, 8
    18. (+5), Sweden, 3, 5, 0, 6
    19. (-6), New Zealand, 3, 4, 6, 11
    19. (-3), South Korea, 3, 4, 6, 8
    21. (-7), Cuba, 3, 3, 5, 8
    22. (+3), Denmark, 3, 3, 3, 8
    23. (+3), Croatia, 3, 3, 2, 5
    24. (0), Switzerland, 3, 2, 5, 6
    25. (+2), Iran, 3, 2, 1, 4
    26. (+2), Serbia, 3, 1, 5, 7
    27. (+2), Belgium, 3, 1, 3, 7
    28. (+2), Bulgaria, 3, 1, 1, 5
    28. (+3), Slovenia, 3, 1, 1, 4
    30. (+2), Uzbekistan, 3, 0, 2, 5
    31. (+3), Chinese Taipei, 2, 4, 6, 10
    32. (+3), Turkey, 2, 2, 4, 6
    33. (0), Georgia, 2, 2, 1, 3
    34. (+2), Greece, 2, 1, 1, 4
    35. (+3), Ecuador, 2, 1, 0, 2
    36. (+3), Ireland, 2, 0, 2, 2
    37. (+4), Qatar, 2, 0, 1, 3
    38. (+6), Ukraine, 1, 6, 10, 12
    39. (+9), India, 1, 2, 4, 6
    40. (+5), Belarus, 1, 2, 3, 4
    41. (+9), Slovakia, 1, 2, 1, 4
    42. (+4), Romania, 1, 2, 0, 2
    42. (+4), Venezuela, 1, 2, 0, 3
    42. (+10), South Africa, 1, 2, 0, 2
    45. (+8), Austria, 1, 1, 5, 6
    46. (+3), Hong Kong, 1, 1, 3, 5
    46. (+8), Egypt, 1, 1, 3, 4
    48. (+7), Indonesia, 1, 1, 2, 2
    48. (+8), Portugal, 1, 1, 2, 3
    50. (-31), Kenya, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-29), Jamaica, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-14), Uganda, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (0), Philippines, 1, 1, 1, 2
    50. (+6), Ethiopia, 1, 1, 1, 1
    55. (+3), Tunisia, 1, 1, 0, 2
    56. (-17), Israel, 1, 0, 2, 3
    57. (+2), Estonia, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Fiji, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Latvia, 1, 0, 1, 2
    57. (+2), Thailand, 1, 0, 1, 2
    61. (-19), Bahamas, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (-19), Kosovo, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Bermuda, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Morocco, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Puerto Rico, 1, 0, 0, 1

    I think this better reflects how good the Americans are. And we can take heart from tying China in terms of medalling in different sports.

    Seems like utter bollocks to me. Why split athletics like that? Why combine modern pentathlon, triathlon , heptathlon and decathlon? Why split canoe sprint and slalom (and yet keep equestrian dressage with jumping)?

    Surely you could split it all up in whatever way to wished to make whatever point you were looking to make?
    I thought about equestrian, but I think the involvement of a horse means that it's fair enough to keep it altogether.

    I think the athletics deserves to be split up more because the disciplines are very different. The sprinting/running are more different than say the different distances in the swimming, in my opinion.

    The two types of canoeing seem completely different to me. Perhaps there's a case for sticking the canoe sprint with the rowing as they are a bit similar.
    Good points although think "fighting" should be more grouped - Judo,wrestling and Karate are simalar for instance.Also think diving is more gymnastics than swimming
    Diving is separate from swimming and I think it deserves to be its own category.

    I know little about the fighting sports and whether they are sufficiently similar to be grouped. My instinct is that they should be separate. As an aside, I think Taekwondo is the best of those types of sports.
    Having dressage as a sport is ridiculous.
    If you have quasi-racist views as to the relative importance of different species, I suppose it is. If 2 human partnerships are allowed in sailing, why do you object to 1 human/1 horse combos elsewhere?
    Nah bollocks.

    Dressage is boring as fuck, artificial, and borderline abusive to the animal.

    Why not have performing seals or a chimps' tea party.
    I have done exactly one competitive dressage test in my life (as part of a 1 day event) and I came 41st out of 42. Bloody proud of that. But as a riding instructor once put it to me, which is the more difficult and useful skill: driving a car at 120 down the motorway, or parking it in a space 6 inches longer than its own length?
  • ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Although the 9/11 terrorists were trained in Florida, not Afghanistan.
    So we should bomb Florida?
    Well, it might eliminate the biggest danger to America if we did.

    But it would surely radicalise those violent elements among his followers into carrying out yet more terrorist attacks.
    Those violent elements are heavily armed too.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,493
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Bin Laden was killed in Pakistan by a commando raid. I don’t see how the war in Afghanistan had a large bearing on that. In fact, by driving him underground and turning the locals against the West it may have delayed his being located. In 2001 the Americans were privately briefing they believed he was dead, which tells me they didn’t know what the hell had happened to him.
    Bin Laden only ended up in Pakistan for US special forces to kill him because the invasion forced him out of Afganistan.

    Had there been no invasion Bin Laden would still be alive in the Pakistan mountains now leading his training camps of terror to rain fire on the West.

    George W Bush may have made a mistake going in to Iraq (albeit it is now a democracy) but on Afghanistan he was right, to go in hard and crush the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Blair to his credit backed him to the hilt.

    Obama to be fair to him also followed suit and took the opportunity to kill Bin Laden.

    Biden and Harris it seems are weakly withdrawing troops and abandoning Afghans to their fate, no matter the cost to them or in future terrorist actions. It is shameful.

    Any future terrorist attacks on a western city can be blamed firmly on the Biden administration as can any future Taliban atrocities outside of their heartlands if they take full control.

    Mind you Boris should have been tougher too.

    It says something that the toughest western leader at the moment on taking on radical, extremist Islam is President Macron
    Do you play war games in your spare time?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,946
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Bin Laden was killed in Pakistan by a commando raid. I don’t see how the war in Afghanistan had a large bearing on that. In fact, by driving him underground and turning the locals against the West it may have delayed his being located. In 2001 the Americans were privately briefing they believed he was dead, which tells me they didn’t know what the hell had happened to him.
    Bin Laden only ended up in Pakistan for US special forces to kill him because the invasion forced him out of Afganistan.

    Had there been no invasion Bin Laden would still be alive in the Pakistan mountains now leading his training camps of terror to rain fire on the West.

    George W Bush may have made a mistake going in to Iraq (albeit it is now a democracy) but on Afghanistan he was right, to go in hard and crush the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Blair to his credit backed him to the hilt.

    Obama to be fair to him also followed suit and took the opportunity to kill Bin Laden.

    Biden and Harris it seems are weakly withdrawing troops and abanding Afghans to their fate, no matter the cost to them or in future terrorist actions. It is shameful.

    Any future terrorist attacks on a western city can be blamed firmly on the Biden administration as can any future Taliban atrocities outside of their heartlands if they take full control.

    Mind you Boris should have been tougher too.

    Can I just check - you do know that it was Trump who withdrew all of the troops, don’t you? All Biden has done is basically stick to his timetable.

    In your second paragraph I assume you mean ‘Afghan.’ In this you are not necessarily correct. The Taleban were willing to hand him over and expel Al-Qaeda from the country before the invasion started, in exchange for a guarantee that the Americans wouldn’t invade.

    Would that have been a great solution? No, because the Taleban are ultimately murderous violent pigs who would be considered dangerously violent and creepy by the Aztecs. Would it have been better than what actually happened? Hard to say ‘no,’ isn’t it?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,998

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Now the nationalist frenzy has abated somewhat you might just about get away with this..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Although the 9/11 terrorists were trained in Florida, not Afghanistan.
    The Al Qaeda terrorist training camps were in Afghanistan. They may have moved to the US and used Florida for their undercover final training but it was Afghanistan where the attacks were planned and set up
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,013
    edited August 2021

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Bollocks

    If you watch it in slow motion, he tries to pretend he's fumbling for a bottle, but he clearly intends to knock them all over, and then - surprise - just manages to grab the last one, very easily. Leaving no others.

    At some points he is not even attempting to pick up the bottles, just flapping them out of the way


    That said, I don't think he deserves the worldwide crucifixion he is now getting. It was a mean spirited bit of sportsmanship, but not a capital crime
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143

    HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    You live in a fantasy world of your own construction.
    No, the real world.

    If Kabul fell it would be the greatest humiliation for the US since the fall of Saigon and the Taliban will be a far worse fate for the Afghans than the Vietcong were for the Vietnamese with far greater threat to the west if Al Qaeda come back.

    It will be on Biden's watch
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    edited August 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    🛒The shortage of qualified drivers has reached crisis point, with ministers now examining every means possible to keep Britain supplied https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/08/army-standby-restock-britains-shelves-amid-truck-driver-shortage/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1628438506

    Any EU countries got the army on standby to deliver groceries?
    https://twitter.com/UB5simon/status/1424352273061273600

    I am going to guess the Telegraph is over-hyping this one and the cahcnes are it will all come to nothing.

    On the other hand, if it developed into a series of major shortages this government is well and truly f*cked.
  • Unbelievable.

    Alex Hales gets hit in the nuts two deliveries in a row.

    He deserves an England recall after that.
  • Omnium said:

    I ran out of some key ingredients (ok wine), and ordered a Deliveroo from Sainsburys.

    I got a call (from Sainsburys) saying that it had been intercepted and stolen, and that there'd thus be a delay.

    I insisted that I'd want to know how the reporting to the police was happening, but they seemed reluctant to say. The order turned up (un-intercepted) 20 or so minutes later. I'm almost sure there's no police report.

    I would very much like to eradicate this sort of shit. Any suggestions?

    (I will of course be sending emails to Deliveroo and Sainsbury's about this, and I'll be copying in the Met. With the Met I'll also be insisting on a response.)

    It's insane that such things should be normal.

    Maybe sleep on it and avoid wasting valuable police time that could otherwise be spent looking for serial killers or investigating offensive tweets. I use Deliveroo every day (well, six days a week) and every now and then – every few months – there is a bug where the map showing the delivery driver's location does not update correctly or at all. It is possible that Sainsbury's were misled by this or some other bug. Or it could be a scam involving the driver and a Sainsbury's insider but unless you are ordering champagne by the case and caviar by the kilogram, how likely is it?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,884

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    And the back row is left standing anyway. Fuss about nothing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,946

    Unbelievable.

    Alex Hales gets hit in the nuts two deliveries in a row.

    He deserves an England recall after that.

    If only he were playing cricket, somebody might think it worth a recall.
  • HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    So you're saying Ford wasn't re-elected because of the fall of Saigon and not his pardon of Nixon and the wider Watergate fallout?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Any chance we can move on from the foundational debates about Scottish Independence for a bit? No? Okay. Just asking.

    It's actually been quite interesting, because of the point made by Foxy. The implication is: if you don't accept referenda on demand as a means of change then you have to accept parliamentary representation. At what point does refusal fo a referendum force acceptance of the SNP majority at Westminster as automatic start to negotiations for independence implementation?

    Yet under the so-called constitution no government or parliament at Westminster can bind its successors (except in the case of external treaties, etc.). So there is at the same time a clear time limit for any government's refusal of a referendum.

    The two aren't easily reconciled.
    No you don't, the Spanish government has easily refused the Catalan Nationalists even one referendum, the Nationalist majority in Catalan MPs is also irrelevant to Madrid. Time to play hardball, no concessions whatsoever to the Nationalists from this Tory government. Sturgeon unlike Salmond is so weak unlike the Catalan nationalists she has ruled out a wildcat referendum and UDI
    Don't let me stop you from getting excited about grannies being smashed in the face for daring to vote.
    The granny smashing seems to have worked, however.

    For the record, I am not recommending we send in the SAS to beat up the babushkas of Dundee, just noting it

    Even more startling, the EU has quietly accepted this, apparently
    What Madrid did show was appeasing Nationalists never works, otherwise we will be giving them endless referenda whenever they want until they get the result they want.

    No London has to stand firm and tough and give them no concessions whatsoever, 2014 was a once in a generation referendum, end of. Make firm and clear they will get no legal indyref2 under this Tory government.

    If they rant and throw their toys out the pram, tough.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,526
    Candy said:

    Carnyx said:



    And the choice of vaccine was entirely up to the medics - one just took what they had/recommended. Nothijng to do with EU internal politics.

    You had the choice to reject the vaccine and stay unvaccinated.,

    If you love the EU and Ursula von der Leyen beyond everything, you'd be prepared to put your life on the line to help her crusade against AZ and against perfidious Brexit Britain.

    But it turns out Scots didn't really love the EU enough to make sacrifices of that sort...
    You’re really quite barking, aren’t you?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,946

    HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    So you're saying Ford wasn't re-elected because of the fall of Saigon and not his pardon of Nixon and the wider Watergate fallout?
    Particularly since Nixon was the one who initiated the policy of Vietnamisation that ultimately failed.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,526
    eek said:

    One for @rcs1000 - an overview on why inflation is continually low

    https://eu.thestarpress.com/story/opinion/columnists/2021/08/08/michael-hicks-inflation-puzzle-partly-solved/5504806001/

    The argument is basically flexible labour markets and monopolies. One to have a think about

    Surely monopolies would lead to higher prices… perhaps he means monopsony?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,648

    Scott_xP said:

    🛒The shortage of qualified drivers has reached crisis point, with ministers now examining every means possible to keep Britain supplied https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/08/army-standby-restock-britains-shelves-amid-truck-driver-shortage/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1628438506

    Any EU countries got the army on standby to deliver groceries?
    https://twitter.com/UB5simon/status/1424352273061273600

    I am going to guess the Telegraph is over-hyping this one and the cahcnes are it will all come to nothing.

    On the other hand, if it developed into a series of major shortages this government is well and truly f*cked.
    The ending of self-isolation for vaccinated people in about a week should help.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,460
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    So you're saying Ford wasn't re-elected because of the fall of Saigon and not his pardon of Nixon and the wider Watergate fallout?
    Particularly since Nixon was the one who initiated the policy of Vietnamisation that ultimately failed.
    Will Americans really see the fall of Kabul as their country losing a war?

    I'm sceptical.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,884
    I think he is worried about impeding the guy in the white cap on his inside.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,546

    I am going to guess the Telegraph is over-hyping this one and the cahcnes are it will all come to nothing.

    On the other hand, if it developed into a series of major shortages this government is well and truly f*cked.

    When the Telegraph, the most pro-Brexit and pro-BoZo paper in the World, is raising concerns, then somebody in Downing Street is severely worried.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,628
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    One for @rcs1000 - an overview on why inflation is continually low

    https://eu.thestarpress.com/story/opinion/columnists/2021/08/08/michael-hicks-inflation-puzzle-partly-solved/5504806001/

    The argument is basically flexible labour markets and monopolies. One to have a think about

    Surely monopolies would lead to higher prices… perhaps he means monopsony?
    I will need to find his doctoral thesis but - this is his claim

    Larger firms tend to change prices less frequently, even when others around them do so. At least, that is what my doctoral dissertation reported.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    Leon said:

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Bollocks

    If you watch it in slow motion, he tries to pretend he's fumbling for a bottle, but he clearly intends to knock them all over, and then - surprise - just manages to grab the last one, very easily. Leaving no others.

    At some points he is not even attempting to pick up the bottles, just flapping them out of the way


    That said, I don't think he deserves the worldwide crucifixion he is now getting. It was a mean spirited bit of sportsmanship, but not a capital crime
    If I watch it in slow motion I will get a completely warped sense of what actually happened.

    As someone else said he left the back row of bottles standing. It was clearly an accident caused be a runner under extreme stress in an Olympic marathon ffs!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    Scott_xP said:

    I am going to guess the Telegraph is over-hyping this one and the cahcnes are it will all come to nothing.

    On the other hand, if it developed into a series of major shortages this government is well and truly f*cked.

    When the Telegraph, the most pro-Brexit and pro-BoZo paper in the World, is raising concerns, then somebody in Downing Street is severely worried.
    You may have a point. Time will tell.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,946
    edited August 2021

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    So you're saying Ford wasn't re-elected because of the fall of Saigon and not his pardon of Nixon and the wider Watergate fallout?
    Particularly since Nixon was the one who initiated the policy of Vietnamisation that ultimately failed.
    Will Americans really see the fall of Kabul as their country losing a war?

    I'm sceptical.

    They may do. But just as it was Nixon who ended the American involvement in Vietnam in 1973, even if the final act happened on Ford’s watch, so Trump will be seen as the one who pulled out of Afghanistan.

    Thing is, I don’t think given that what’s happening now is stark evidence of two decades of failure, that it will make any difference. It isn’t Operation Eagle Claw.

    In many quarters it may even be very popular.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,001
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Aslan said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Earlier I posted an alternative Olympic medal table where only medals in different sports were counted. I actually think some of the groupings of events into sports is unfair (especially track and field), so I've regrouped the following:

    Remove BMX freestyle from cycling
    Split up Canoe sprint and slalom
    Combine multi-discipline events: triathlon, modern pentathlon, heptathlon and decathlon
    Split track and field into:
    Walking
    Running (800m, 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, and Marathon)
    Sprinting (100m, 200m, 400m, 100/110m hurdles, 400m hurdles, and relays)
    Jumping (long, high, triple)
    Pole vaulting
    Throwing (discuss, shot, hammer, and javelin)

    This gives the following table (diff is to the official table):

    Rank, Diff, Team, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Total
    1. (0), United States, 17, 18, 15, 30
    2. (0), China, 13, 14, 10, 21
    3. (0), Japan, 11, 13, 13, 20
    4. (+1), ROC, 10, 13, 10, 19
    5. (-1), Great Britain, 9, 12, 18, 21
    6. (+3), Germany, 8, 10, 9, 17
    7. (+3), Italy, 8, 7, 11, 18
    8. (0), France, 7, 8, 8, 15
    9. (-3), Australia, 7, 5, 12, 19
    10. (+1), Canada, 7, 4, 8, 13
    11. (+1), Brazil, 7, 4, 6, 13
    12. (-5), Netherlands, 5, 7, 9, 12
    13. (+2), Hungary, 4, 5, 6, 9
    14. (+4), Czech Republic, 4, 4, 3, 7
    15. (+5), Norway, 4, 2, 2, 8
    16. (+6), Spain, 3, 7, 5, 14
    17. (0), Poland, 3, 5, 4, 8
    18. (+5), Sweden, 3, 5, 0, 6
    19. (-6), New Zealand, 3, 4, 6, 11
    19. (-3), South Korea, 3, 4, 6, 8
    21. (-7), Cuba, 3, 3, 5, 8
    22. (+3), Denmark, 3, 3, 3, 8
    23. (+3), Croatia, 3, 3, 2, 5
    24. (0), Switzerland, 3, 2, 5, 6
    25. (+2), Iran, 3, 2, 1, 4
    26. (+2), Serbia, 3, 1, 5, 7
    27. (+2), Belgium, 3, 1, 3, 7
    28. (+2), Bulgaria, 3, 1, 1, 5
    28. (+3), Slovenia, 3, 1, 1, 4
    30. (+2), Uzbekistan, 3, 0, 2, 5
    31. (+3), Chinese Taipei, 2, 4, 6, 10
    32. (+3), Turkey, 2, 2, 4, 6
    33. (0), Georgia, 2, 2, 1, 3
    34. (+2), Greece, 2, 1, 1, 4
    35. (+3), Ecuador, 2, 1, 0, 2
    36. (+3), Ireland, 2, 0, 2, 2
    37. (+4), Qatar, 2, 0, 1, 3
    38. (+6), Ukraine, 1, 6, 10, 12
    39. (+9), India, 1, 2, 4, 6
    40. (+5), Belarus, 1, 2, 3, 4
    41. (+9), Slovakia, 1, 2, 1, 4
    42. (+4), Romania, 1, 2, 0, 2
    42. (+4), Venezuela, 1, 2, 0, 3
    42. (+10), South Africa, 1, 2, 0, 2
    45. (+8), Austria, 1, 1, 5, 6
    46. (+3), Hong Kong, 1, 1, 3, 5
    46. (+8), Egypt, 1, 1, 3, 4
    48. (+7), Indonesia, 1, 1, 2, 2
    48. (+8), Portugal, 1, 1, 2, 3
    50. (-31), Kenya, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-29), Jamaica, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-14), Uganda, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (0), Philippines, 1, 1, 1, 2
    50. (+6), Ethiopia, 1, 1, 1, 1
    55. (+3), Tunisia, 1, 1, 0, 2
    56. (-17), Israel, 1, 0, 2, 3
    57. (+2), Estonia, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Fiji, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Latvia, 1, 0, 1, 2
    57. (+2), Thailand, 1, 0, 1, 2
    61. (-19), Bahamas, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (-19), Kosovo, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Bermuda, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Morocco, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Puerto Rico, 1, 0, 0, 1

    I think this better reflects how good the Americans are. And we can take heart from tying China in terms of medalling in different sports.

    Seems like utter bollocks to me. Why split athletics like that? Why combine modern pentathlon, triathlon , heptathlon and decathlon? Why split canoe sprint and slalom (and yet keep equestrian dressage with jumping)?

    Surely you could split it all up in whatever way to wished to make whatever point you were looking to make?
    I thought about equestrian, but I think the involvement of a horse means that it's fair enough to keep it altogether.

    I think the athletics deserves to be split up more because the disciplines are very different. The sprinting/running are more different than say the different distances in the swimming, in my opinion.

    The two types of canoeing seem completely different to me. Perhaps there's a case for sticking the canoe sprint with the rowing as they are a bit similar.
    Good points although think "fighting" should be more grouped - Judo,wrestling and Karate are simalar for instance.Also think diving is more gymnastics than swimming
    Diving is separate from swimming and I think it deserves to be its own category.

    I know little about the fighting sports and whether they are sufficiently similar to be grouped. My instinct is that they should be separate. As an aside, I think Taekwondo is the best of those types of sports.
    Having dressage as a sport is ridiculous.
    If you have quasi-racist views as to the relative importance of different species, I suppose it is. If 2 human partnerships are allowed in sailing, why do you object to 1 human/1 horse combos elsewhere?
    Nah bollocks.

    Dressage is boring as fuck, artificial, and borderline abusive to the animal.

    Why not have performing seals or a chimps' tea party.
    I have done exactly one competitive dressage test in my life (as part of a 1 day event) and I came 41st out of 42. Bloody proud of that. But as a riding instructor once put it to me, which is the more difficult and useful skill: driving a car at 120 down the motorway, or parking it in a space 6 inches longer than its own length?
    I just don't like the artifice. I get the skill over the animal. But it seems pretty unnatural.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,013

    Leon said:

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Bollocks

    If you watch it in slow motion, he tries to pretend he's fumbling for a bottle, but he clearly intends to knock them all over, and then - surprise - just manages to grab the last one, very easily. Leaving no others.

    At some points he is not even attempting to pick up the bottles, just flapping them out of the way


    That said, I don't think he deserves the worldwide crucifixion he is now getting. It was a mean spirited bit of sportsmanship, but not a capital crime
    If I watch it in slow motion I will get a completely warped sense of what actually happened.

    As someone else said he left the back row of bottles standing. It was clearly an accident caused be a runner under extreme stress in an Olympic marathon ffs!
    He wasn't under extreme stress, this was not right at the end. He showed no other signs of physical deterioration, just this

    The clincher is that he apparently can't grasp a bottle, but oh, look, once he's knocked over every single one he is easily able to get the very last, without a problem. Neat

    He's been credibly accused of doping as well, so he has form on cheating

    "During the World Championships, German broadcaster ARD reported another French runner, Morhad Amdouni, the 2018 European 10,000m champion had exchanged WhatsApp messages with a person asking him for payment for an EPO purchase. Amdouni denied the accusations."


    Be careful who you defend

    "During our investigations, one of the informants received a death threat" from Amdouni's entourage, the channel said."

    https://vir.com.vn/european-10000m-champ-amdouni-blasts-doping-allegations-70933.html
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    Saka clapped by Spurs fans on his return for Arsenal. There is hope for society yet...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58138453
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143

    HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    So you're saying Ford wasn't re-elected because of the fall of Saigon and not his pardon of Nixon and the wider Watergate fallout?
    When Ford took office in 1974 he had a 71% approval rating.

    Even after he pardoned Nixon in September 1974 he had a 52% approval rating.

    However as the Vietnam War moved to defeat in early 1975 his rating fell below 40% and was only 39% in April 1975 as Saigon fell.

    For most of the rest of his presidency his approval rating was below 50%, leading to his defeat in 1976

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/23995/gerald-ford-retrospective.aspx
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    So you're saying Ford wasn't re-elected because of the fall of Saigon and not his pardon of Nixon and the wider Watergate fallout?
    Particularly since Nixon was the one who initiated the policy of Vietnamisation that ultimately failed.
    Saigon did not fall on Nixon's watch and Nixon was re elected by a landslide in 1972
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Bollocks

    If you watch it in slow motion, he tries to pretend he's fumbling for a bottle, but he clearly intends to knock them all over, and then - surprise - just manages to grab the last one, very easily. Leaving no others.

    At some points he is not even attempting to pick up the bottles, just flapping them out of the way


    That said, I don't think he deserves the worldwide crucifixion he is now getting. It was a mean spirited bit of sportsmanship, but not a capital crime
    If I watch it in slow motion I will get a completely warped sense of what actually happened.

    As someone else said he left the back row of bottles standing. It was clearly an accident caused be a runner under extreme stress in an Olympic marathon ffs!
    He wasn't under extreme stress, this was not right at the end. He showed no other signs of physical deterioration, just this

    The clincher is that he apparently can't grasp a bottle, but oh, look, once he's knocked over every single one he is easily able to get the very last, without a problem. Neat

    He's been credibly accused of doping as well, so he has form on cheating

    "During the World Championships, German broadcaster ARD reported another French runner, Morhad Amdouni, the 2018 European 10,000m champion had exchanged WhatsApp messages with a person asking him for payment for an EPO purchase. Amdouni denied the accusations."


    Be careful who you defend

    "During our investigations, one of the informants received a death threat" from Amdouni's entourage, the channel said."

    https://vir.com.vn/european-10000m-champ-amdouni-blasts-doping-allegations-70933.html
    But... motive? Nope, I thought not.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gordon bloody Bennet.

    Where do they dig these imbeciles up?

    Afghanistan troop withdrawal a strategic mistake, warns ex-general
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58139590

    (No, not that, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s this.)

    A UK Government spokeswoman said: "We recognise that the security situation in Afghanistan is serious, and reports of the escalating violence are extremely disturbing.

    We do not believe there is any military solution to Afghanistan's conflict, and call on the Taliban to end their campaign of violence and engage in meaningful dialogue with the Afghan government.

    There needs to be a negotiated solution to ensure a lasting peace."’


    How could anyone spout BS like that with a straight face?

    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    I'm sure it was recognised and understood, they just won't say it.

    I don't know why anyone would work in government PR, it seems soul destroying. As you say, calling on the winning side to stop winning is just idiotic to say.
    The problem is not that they can’t say it, it’s that they’ve said something demonstrably untrue.

    There is an obvious military solution to Afghanistan’s current situation. A total Taleban victory. Which, to judge from the last 72 hours, is what is about to happen.

    The fact that it is a very bad solution indeed for everyone other than the mullahs of the Taleban isn’t a military problem.

    I’m in a difficult situation here because I never thought we should have invaded in 2001 anyway. I didn’t see what we could achieve or how we could achieve it.

    And unfortunately, after twenty years of fighting that has cost thousands of lives, damaged Afghanistan further, and spread instability into other countries around, we’re back where we started.
    Had we not invaded Bin Laden would still be alive and Al Qaeda still a significant presence in the country.

    If the Taliban retake full control and invite Al Qaeda back we will have no choice but to invade again or face thousands of western deaths in New York, Paris and London from terror cells trained and launched from Afghanistan
    Bin Laden was killed in Pakistan by a commando raid. I don’t see how the war in Afghanistan had a large bearing on that. In fact, by driving him underground and turning the locals against the West it may have delayed his being located. In 2001 the Americans were privately briefing they believed he was dead, which tells me they didn’t know what the hell had happened to him.
    Bin Laden only ended up in Pakistan for US special forces to kill him because the invasion forced him out of Afganistan.

    Had there been no invasion Bin Laden would still be alive in the Pakistan mountains now leading his training camps of terror to rain fire on the West.

    George W Bush may have made a mistake going in to Iraq (albeit it is now a democracy) but on Afghanistan he was right, to go in hard and crush the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Blair to his credit backed him to the hilt.

    Obama to be fair to him also followed suit and took the opportunity to kill Bin Laden.

    Biden and Harris it seems are weakly withdrawing troops and abanding Afghans to their fate, no matter the cost to them or in future terrorist actions. It is shameful.

    Any future terrorist attacks on a western city can be blamed firmly on the Biden administration as can any future Taliban atrocities outside of their heartlands if they take full control.

    Mind you Boris should have been tougher too.

    Can I just check - you do know that it was Trump who withdrew all of the troops, don’t you? All Biden has done is basically stick to his timetable.

    In your second paragraph I assume you mean ‘Afghan.’ In this you are not necessarily correct. The Taleban were willing to hand him over and expel Al-Qaeda from the country before the invasion started, in exchange for a guarantee that the Americans wouldn’t invade.

    Would that have been a great solution? No, because the Taleban are ultimately murderous violent pigs who would be considered dangerously violent and creepy by the Aztecs. Would it have been better than what actually happened? Hard to say ‘no,’ isn’t it?
    I never mentioned Trump, someone like Romney would be a far better President than both at the moment.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,648

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Bollocks

    If you watch it in slow motion, he tries to pretend he's fumbling for a bottle, but he clearly intends to knock them all over, and then - surprise - just manages to grab the last one, very easily. Leaving no others.

    At some points he is not even attempting to pick up the bottles, just flapping them out of the way


    That said, I don't think he deserves the worldwide crucifixion he is now getting. It was a mean spirited bit of sportsmanship, but not a capital crime
    If I watch it in slow motion I will get a completely warped sense of what actually happened.

    As someone else said he left the back row of bottles standing. It was clearly an accident caused be a runner under extreme stress in an Olympic marathon ffs!
    He wasn't under extreme stress, this was not right at the end. He showed no other signs of physical deterioration, just this

    The clincher is that he apparently can't grasp a bottle, but oh, look, once he's knocked over every single one he is easily able to get the very last, without a problem. Neat

    He's been credibly accused of doping as well, so he has form on cheating

    "During the World Championships, German broadcaster ARD reported another French runner, Morhad Amdouni, the 2018 European 10,000m champion had exchanged WhatsApp messages with a person asking him for payment for an EPO purchase. Amdouni denied the accusations."


    Be careful who you defend

    "During our investigations, one of the informants received a death threat" from Amdouni's entourage, the channel said."

    https://vir.com.vn/european-10000m-champ-amdouni-blasts-doping-allegations-70933.html
    But... motive? Nope, I thought not.
    Denying others water in a race? I wonder what the motivation could be.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Bollocks

    If you watch it in slow motion, he tries to pretend he's fumbling for a bottle, but he clearly intends to knock them all over, and then - surprise - just manages to grab the last one, very easily. Leaving no others.

    At some points he is not even attempting to pick up the bottles, just flapping them out of the way


    That said, I don't think he deserves the worldwide crucifixion he is now getting. It was a mean spirited bit of sportsmanship, but not a capital crime
    If I watch it in slow motion I will get a completely warped sense of what actually happened.

    As someone else said he left the back row of bottles standing. It was clearly an accident caused be a runner under extreme stress in an Olympic marathon ffs!
    He wasn't under extreme stress, this was not right at the end. He showed no other signs of physical deterioration, just this

    The clincher is that he apparently can't grasp a bottle, but oh, look, once he's knocked over every single one he is easily able to get the very last, without a problem. Neat

    He's been credibly accused of doping as well, so he has form on cheating

    "During the World Championships, German broadcaster ARD reported another French runner, Morhad Amdouni, the 2018 European 10,000m champion had exchanged WhatsApp messages with a person asking him for payment for an EPO purchase. Amdouni denied the accusations."


    Be careful who you defend

    "During our investigations, one of the informants received a death threat" from Amdouni's entourage, the channel said."

    https://vir.com.vn/european-10000m-champ-amdouni-blasts-doping-allegations-70933.html
    But... motive? Nope, I thought not.
    Denying others water in a race? I wonder what the motivation could be.
    Except he doesn't does he. The guy behind him takes a bottle from the other row.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,460
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    So you're saying Ford wasn't re-elected because of the fall of Saigon and not his pardon of Nixon and the wider Watergate fallout?
    Particularly since Nixon was the one who initiated the policy of Vietnamisation that ultimately failed.
    Will Americans really see the fall of Kabul as their country losing a war?

    I'm sceptical.

    They may do. But just as it was Nixon who ended the American involvement in Vietnam in 1973, even if the final act happened on Ford’s watch, so Trump will be seen as the one who pulled out of Afghanistan.

    Thing is, I don’t think given that what’s happening now is stark evidence of two decades of failure, that it will make any difference. It isn’t Operation Eagle Claw.

    In many quarters it may even be very popular.
    Trump had his reasons to do with Americans dying on foreign soil for no purpose and no doubt he was driven by the thought that, as you say, it would be popular.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,648

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Bollocks

    If you watch it in slow motion, he tries to pretend he's fumbling for a bottle, but he clearly intends to knock them all over, and then - surprise - just manages to grab the last one, very easily. Leaving no others.

    At some points he is not even attempting to pick up the bottles, just flapping them out of the way


    That said, I don't think he deserves the worldwide crucifixion he is now getting. It was a mean spirited bit of sportsmanship, but not a capital crime
    If I watch it in slow motion I will get a completely warped sense of what actually happened.

    As someone else said he left the back row of bottles standing. It was clearly an accident caused be a runner under extreme stress in an Olympic marathon ffs!
    He wasn't under extreme stress, this was not right at the end. He showed no other signs of physical deterioration, just this

    The clincher is that he apparently can't grasp a bottle, but oh, look, once he's knocked over every single one he is easily able to get the very last, without a problem. Neat

    He's been credibly accused of doping as well, so he has form on cheating

    "During the World Championships, German broadcaster ARD reported another French runner, Morhad Amdouni, the 2018 European 10,000m champion had exchanged WhatsApp messages with a person asking him for payment for an EPO purchase. Amdouni denied the accusations."


    Be careful who you defend

    "During our investigations, one of the informants received a death threat" from Amdouni's entourage, the channel said."

    https://vir.com.vn/european-10000m-champ-amdouni-blasts-doping-allegations-70933.html
    But... motive? Nope, I thought not.
    Denying others water in a race? I wonder what the motivation could be.
    Except he doesn't does he. The guy behind him takes a bottle from the other row.
    Attempting to deny*

    Not every scheme works flawlessly.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,013

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Bollocks

    If you watch it in slow motion, he tries to pretend he's fumbling for a bottle, but he clearly intends to knock them all over, and then - surprise - just manages to grab the last one, very easily. Leaving no others.

    At some points he is not even attempting to pick up the bottles, just flapping them out of the way


    That said, I don't think he deserves the worldwide crucifixion he is now getting. It was a mean spirited bit of sportsmanship, but not a capital crime
    If I watch it in slow motion I will get a completely warped sense of what actually happened.

    As someone else said he left the back row of bottles standing. It was clearly an accident caused be a runner under extreme stress in an Olympic marathon ffs!
    He wasn't under extreme stress, this was not right at the end. He showed no other signs of physical deterioration, just this

    The clincher is that he apparently can't grasp a bottle, but oh, look, once he's knocked over every single one he is easily able to get the very last, without a problem. Neat

    He's been credibly accused of doping as well, so he has form on cheating

    "During the World Championships, German broadcaster ARD reported another French runner, Morhad Amdouni, the 2018 European 10,000m champion had exchanged WhatsApp messages with a person asking him for payment for an EPO purchase. Amdouni denied the accusations."


    Be careful who you defend

    "During our investigations, one of the informants received a death threat" from Amdouni's entourage, the channel said."

    https://vir.com.vn/european-10000m-champ-amdouni-blasts-doping-allegations-70933.html
    But... motive? Nope, I thought not.
    He's a nasty piece of work, it seems. He's been accused of cheating multiple times. His entourage makes death threats against journalists.

    But of course he would never spill some bottles to get a tiny advantage in a marathon!

    Jeez
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,884
    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Aslan said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Earlier I posted an alternative Olympic medal table where only medals in different sports were counted. I actually think some of the groupings of events into sports is unfair (especially track and field), so I've regrouped the following:

    Remove BMX freestyle from cycling
    Split up Canoe sprint and slalom
    Combine multi-discipline events: triathlon, modern pentathlon, heptathlon and decathlon
    Split track and field into:
    Walking
    Running (800m, 1500m, 5000m, 10000m, and Marathon)
    Sprinting (100m, 200m, 400m, 100/110m hurdles, 400m hurdles, and relays)
    Jumping (long, high, triple)
    Pole vaulting
    Throwing (discuss, shot, hammer, and javelin)

    This gives the following table (diff is to the official table):

    Rank, Diff, Team, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Total
    1. (0), United States, 17, 18, 15, 30
    2. (0), China, 13, 14, 10, 21
    3. (0), Japan, 11, 13, 13, 20
    4. (+1), ROC, 10, 13, 10, 19
    5. (-1), Great Britain, 9, 12, 18, 21
    6. (+3), Germany, 8, 10, 9, 17
    7. (+3), Italy, 8, 7, 11, 18
    8. (0), France, 7, 8, 8, 15
    9. (-3), Australia, 7, 5, 12, 19
    10. (+1), Canada, 7, 4, 8, 13
    11. (+1), Brazil, 7, 4, 6, 13
    12. (-5), Netherlands, 5, 7, 9, 12
    13. (+2), Hungary, 4, 5, 6, 9
    14. (+4), Czech Republic, 4, 4, 3, 7
    15. (+5), Norway, 4, 2, 2, 8
    16. (+6), Spain, 3, 7, 5, 14
    17. (0), Poland, 3, 5, 4, 8
    18. (+5), Sweden, 3, 5, 0, 6
    19. (-6), New Zealand, 3, 4, 6, 11
    19. (-3), South Korea, 3, 4, 6, 8
    21. (-7), Cuba, 3, 3, 5, 8
    22. (+3), Denmark, 3, 3, 3, 8
    23. (+3), Croatia, 3, 3, 2, 5
    24. (0), Switzerland, 3, 2, 5, 6
    25. (+2), Iran, 3, 2, 1, 4
    26. (+2), Serbia, 3, 1, 5, 7
    27. (+2), Belgium, 3, 1, 3, 7
    28. (+2), Bulgaria, 3, 1, 1, 5
    28. (+3), Slovenia, 3, 1, 1, 4
    30. (+2), Uzbekistan, 3, 0, 2, 5
    31. (+3), Chinese Taipei, 2, 4, 6, 10
    32. (+3), Turkey, 2, 2, 4, 6
    33. (0), Georgia, 2, 2, 1, 3
    34. (+2), Greece, 2, 1, 1, 4
    35. (+3), Ecuador, 2, 1, 0, 2
    36. (+3), Ireland, 2, 0, 2, 2
    37. (+4), Qatar, 2, 0, 1, 3
    38. (+6), Ukraine, 1, 6, 10, 12
    39. (+9), India, 1, 2, 4, 6
    40. (+5), Belarus, 1, 2, 3, 4
    41. (+9), Slovakia, 1, 2, 1, 4
    42. (+4), Romania, 1, 2, 0, 2
    42. (+4), Venezuela, 1, 2, 0, 3
    42. (+10), South Africa, 1, 2, 0, 2
    45. (+8), Austria, 1, 1, 5, 6
    46. (+3), Hong Kong, 1, 1, 3, 5
    46. (+8), Egypt, 1, 1, 3, 4
    48. (+7), Indonesia, 1, 1, 2, 2
    48. (+8), Portugal, 1, 1, 2, 3
    50. (-31), Kenya, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-29), Jamaica, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (-14), Uganda, 1, 1, 1, 1
    50. (0), Philippines, 1, 1, 1, 2
    50. (+6), Ethiopia, 1, 1, 1, 1
    55. (+3), Tunisia, 1, 1, 0, 2
    56. (-17), Israel, 1, 0, 2, 3
    57. (+2), Estonia, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Fiji, 1, 0, 1, 1
    57. (+2), Latvia, 1, 0, 1, 2
    57. (+2), Thailand, 1, 0, 1, 2
    61. (-19), Bahamas, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (-19), Kosovo, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Bermuda, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Morocco, 1, 0, 0, 1
    61. (+2), Puerto Rico, 1, 0, 0, 1

    I think this better reflects how good the Americans are. And we can take heart from tying China in terms of medalling in different sports.

    Seems like utter bollocks to me. Why split athletics like that? Why combine modern pentathlon, triathlon , heptathlon and decathlon? Why split canoe sprint and slalom (and yet keep equestrian dressage with jumping)?

    Surely you could split it all up in whatever way to wished to make whatever point you were looking to make?
    I thought about equestrian, but I think the involvement of a horse means that it's fair enough to keep it altogether.

    I think the athletics deserves to be split up more because the disciplines are very different. The sprinting/running are more different than say the different distances in the swimming, in my opinion.

    The two types of canoeing seem completely different to me. Perhaps there's a case for sticking the canoe sprint with the rowing as they are a bit similar.
    Good points although think "fighting" should be more grouped - Judo,wrestling and Karate are simalar for instance.Also think diving is more gymnastics than swimming
    Diving is separate from swimming and I think it deserves to be its own category.

    I know little about the fighting sports and whether they are sufficiently similar to be grouped. My instinct is that they should be separate. As an aside, I think Taekwondo is the best of those types of sports.
    Having dressage as a sport is ridiculous.
    If you have quasi-racist views as to the relative importance of different species, I suppose it is. If 2 human partnerships are allowed in sailing, why do you object to 1 human/1 horse combos elsewhere?
    Nah bollocks.

    Dressage is boring as fuck, artificial, and borderline abusive to the animal.

    Why not have performing seals or a chimps' tea party.
    I have done exactly one competitive dressage test in my life (as part of a 1 day event) and I came 41st out of 42. Bloody proud of that. But as a riding instructor once put it to me, which is the more difficult and useful skill: driving a car at 120 down the motorway, or parking it in a space 6 inches longer than its own length?
    I just don't like the artifice. I get the skill over the animal. But it seems pretty unnatural.
    I have no idea how you even start to train a horse to do the advanced stuff.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,460

    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday




    That's the First Division out on strike then...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,546
    NEW: Sunak ally says Boris Johnson will be signing his political “death warrant” if he demotes the Chancellor.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/08/08/demoting-rishi-sunak-would-boris-johnsons-political-death-warrant/
  • Saka clapped by Spurs fans on his return for Arsenal. There is hope for society yet...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58138453

    Why were Leicester fans abusing Ian Wright and Roy Keane yesterday?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,471


    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday




    That's the First Division out on strike then...

    Can we cut the pay of that anonymous minister instead? By 100% preferably
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,283
    Of Britain’s overall total of 65 medals, 16 were won by Scottish athletes.

    It's worth giving the more honest statistic: 11 of the 112 athletes who contributed to Britain's 65 medals were Scottish.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,013
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Bollocks

    If you watch it in slow motion, he tries to pretend he's fumbling for a bottle, but he clearly intends to knock them all over, and then - surprise - just manages to grab the last one, very easily. Leaving no others.

    At some points he is not even attempting to pick up the bottles, just flapping them out of the way


    That said, I don't think he deserves the worldwide crucifixion he is now getting. It was a mean spirited bit of sportsmanship, but not a capital crime
    If I watch it in slow motion I will get a completely warped sense of what actually happened.

    As someone else said he left the back row of bottles standing. It was clearly an accident caused be a runner under extreme stress in an Olympic marathon ffs!
    He wasn't under extreme stress, this was not right at the end. He showed no other signs of physical deterioration, just this

    The clincher is that he apparently can't grasp a bottle, but oh, look, once he's knocked over every single one he is easily able to get the very last, without a problem. Neat

    He's been credibly accused of doping as well, so he has form on cheating

    "During the World Championships, German broadcaster ARD reported another French runner, Morhad Amdouni, the 2018 European 10,000m champion had exchanged WhatsApp messages with a person asking him for payment for an EPO purchase. Amdouni denied the accusations."


    Be careful who you defend

    "During our investigations, one of the informants received a death threat" from Amdouni's entourage, the channel said."

    https://vir.com.vn/european-10000m-champ-amdouni-blasts-doping-allegations-70933.html
    But... motive? Nope, I thought not.
    Denying others water in a race? I wonder what the motivation could be.
    Except he doesn't does he. The guy behind him takes a bottle from the other row.
    Attempting to deny*

    Not every scheme works flawlessly.
    Also in a marathon a tiny advantage like that can make a big difference. They are all world class athletes at the limit of endurance. You slow down (still running fast) to grab some much needed water (in intense heat). You reach for the front line of bottles, but suddenly they are all gone, so you are bewildered and you carry on running, without water. And you have to replan. Get a drink later on? When?

    It's like a pit stop in Formula 1.

    The guy behind Amdouni seems to reach for a bottle, see that there are suddenly none, then carries on running - waterless

    It's a very marginal effect but tiny margins can mean medals - or not

    Thankfully this cheating French guy came 17th so Pffff

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,628
    Andy_JS said:

    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Intriguingly, the final medal table is a pretty good proxy for The Five Greatest Countries on Earth

    USA
    China
    Japan
    Great Britain
    Russia

    That’s basically the UN Security Council right there. The five most powerful and influential nations, the five most culturally dominant countries, with the most important languages, the best universities, the grandest art, the most epic history, the biggest and bravest empires, basically the flower of humanity.

    Beneath them come the funny little EU provinces - ‘Italy’, ‘France’ - pretty and well-meaning but not of great seriousness. Below them there’s just a lot of places no one has ever heard of, with weird pickled veg for breakfast.

    Odd how sport mimics and underlines reality.

    I’d much rather be part of a Switzerland - small, prosperous, rule of law, democratic - than a China or a Russia.

    Switzerland isn't in the EU and is terribly dull. I've lived there and been more than most other people, unsurprisingly given that my wife is Swiss.
    I used to spend time in Lutzern and Grindelwald when I was younger. Much more than a week now and it’s hard work…
    Why is it hard work?
    It’s very pedestrian and cut off from the rest of the world. Nice for a break but - for me at least - I get antsy after a while unless I’m skiing or climbing.
    I've been skiing three times, when I was 13, 14 and 16, each time with my school. I never thought I wouldn't do it again for so long. Switzerland once and Austria twice. Useless facts.
    You really do undersell yourself sometimes, Andy. This tells me quite a lot and I'll be updating my files.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076


    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday

    That's the First Division out on strike then...

    Which minister? No name on that front page as far as I can see.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,013
    moonshine said:


    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday




    That's the First Division out on strike then...

    Can we cut the pay of that anonymous minister instead? By 100% preferably
    BUT this has to be the future. Companies (and governments) cannot pay full whack for workers who are suddenly saving £1000s on commuting and, by the by, not paying London prices (so goodbye London weighting)

    These adjustments are inevitable. Any company that continued to pay full London wages to someone only doing 1 or 2 days in London would go bust quick. Governments will follow
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,514
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just watched the marthon runner bottle man, at real time.

    Nothing malicious in it at all IMO. He's clearly tired, focused on the race, and struggling to pick up a bottle.

    Bollocks

    If you watch it in slow motion, he tries to pretend he's fumbling for a bottle, but he clearly intends to knock them all over, and then - surprise - just manages to grab the last one, very easily. Leaving no others.

    At some points he is not even attempting to pick up the bottles, just flapping them out of the way


    That said, I don't think he deserves the worldwide crucifixion he is now getting. It was a mean spirited bit of sportsmanship, but not a capital crime
    If I watch it in slow motion I will get a completely warped sense of what actually happened.

    As someone else said he left the back row of bottles standing. It was clearly an accident caused be a runner under extreme stress in an Olympic marathon ffs!
    He wasn't under extreme stress, this was not right at the end. He showed no other signs of physical deterioration, just this

    The clincher is that he apparently can't grasp a bottle, but oh, look, once he's knocked over every single one he is easily able to get the very last, without a problem. Neat

    He's been credibly accused of doping as well, so he has form on cheating

    "During the World Championships, German broadcaster ARD reported another French runner, Morhad Amdouni, the 2018 European 10,000m champion had exchanged WhatsApp messages with a person asking him for payment for an EPO purchase. Amdouni denied the accusations."


    Be careful who you defend

    "During our investigations, one of the informants received a death threat" from Amdouni's entourage, the channel said."

    https://vir.com.vn/european-10000m-champ-amdouni-blasts-doping-allegations-70933.html
    But... motive? Nope, I thought not.
    Denying others water in a race? I wonder what the motivation could be.
    Except he doesn't does he. The guy behind him takes a bottle from the other row.
    Attempting to deny*

    Not every scheme works flawlessly.
    Also in a marathon a tiny advantage like that can make a big difference. They are all world class athletes at the limit of endurance. You slow down (still running fast) to grab some much needed water (in intense heat). You reach for the front line of bottles, but suddenly they are all gone, so you are bewildered and you carry on running, without water. And you have to replan. Get a drink later on? When?

    It's like a pit stop in Formula 1.

    The guy behind Amdouni seems to reach for a bottle, see that there are suddenly none, then carries on running - waterless

    It's a very marginal effect but tiny margins can mean medals - or not

    Thankfully this cheating French guy came 17th so Pffff

    Also Paula Radcliffe said on commentary hydrating early on is vitally important...by the time you start to feel you need it late in the race its too late if you haven't already got enough hydration in early.

    The elite athletes now all have careful plans of what to drink at each stage, the Kenyan guy who won has been running with sophisticated sensors in the run up to this to ensure they know how to best plan all of this based on recorded body metrics.

    The Olympics isn't some park run where you crowd around to grab a drink when you fancy it. Its carefully practiced procedure, with a dedicated individual plan.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Candy said:

    ydoethur said:



    Whatever the reasons for our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it should have been recognised and understood that in doing so the country was being handed back to the Taleban.

    According to this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1424059898753548291

    "Why is Biden leaving? "We have to leave so everything is completely forgotten by the midterms""

    Biden is a lot more ruthless than Trump. When Trump sacked John Bolton for warmogering, he kept saying "You don't have to kill people. You don't always have to kill people". He had a peaceful four years with very few foreign deaths.

    Biden isn't as squeamish. He thinks there will be a lot of carnage but he doesn't care because he thinks Americans will have forgotten it all by midterms.
    It won't be forgotten. If Kabul falls it defines his Presidency as that of a weak loser and Americans do not forgive losers in the Oval Office.

    He would only be the second US President since WW2 to lose a war after Ford saw Saigon fall on his watch, Ford was not re elected.

    Ford at least had the excuse Democrats on Congress cut off funding for the war, Biden has his party in control of Congress now
    So you're saying Ford wasn't re-elected because of the fall of Saigon and not his pardon of Nixon and the wider Watergate fallout?
    Particularly since Nixon was the one who initiated the policy of Vietnamisation that ultimately failed.
    Will Americans really see the fall of Kabul as their country losing a war?

    I'm sceptical.

    They may do. But just as it was Nixon who ended the American involvement in Vietnam in 1973, even if the final act happened on Ford’s watch, so Trump will be seen as the one who pulled out of Afghanistan.

    Thing is, I don’t think given that what’s happening now is stark evidence of two decades of failure, that it will make any difference. It isn’t Operation Eagle Claw.

    In many quarters it may even be very popular.
    Until the next skyscraper in New York or LA falls after a terrorist attack trained, planned and launched from Afghanistan
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,905

    Combining the two topics du jour: what about an UK supported Edinburgh* bid to host the Olympics in 2036?

    (*or Glasgow, though I think Edinburgh carries more international clout.)

    The Olympics and the Festival at the same time would probably cause Edinburgh to explode.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,471


    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday

    That's the First Division out on strike then...

    Which minister? No name on that front page as far as I can see.
    “It’s difficult to know whether someone at home was working or watching television”.

    Well… if you are that unable to measure output rather than input, you can either safely eliminate the role. Or you eliminate the manager. Which in this case I suppose means the “senior cabinet minister” quoted.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,546
    Leon said:

    BUT this has to be the future. Companies (and governments) cannot pay full whack for workers who are suddenly saving £1000s on commuting and, by the by, not paying London prices (so goodbye London weighting)

    These adjustments are inevitable. Any company that continued to pay full London wages to someone only doing 1 or 2 days in London would go bust quick. Governments will follow

    BUT the Civil Service were already moving jobs out of London.

    Working from home solves that problem at a stroke
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,471
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:


    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday




    That's the First Division out on strike then...

    Can we cut the pay of that anonymous minister instead? By 100% preferably
    BUT this has to be the future. Companies (and governments) cannot pay full whack for workers who are suddenly saving £1000s on commuting and, by the by, not paying London prices (so goodbye London weighting)

    These adjustments are inevitable. Any company that continued to pay full London wages to someone only doing 1 or 2 days in London would go bust quick. Governments will follow
    That’s not how the market works. You may find suitable candidates willing to accept a role for less money than before, if they have found a way to reduce their living cost. But then again you might not, given their wages are a function of their productivity. And without the wasted time and energy of a commute, their productivity may in many cases increase.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,013
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    BUT this has to be the future. Companies (and governments) cannot pay full whack for workers who are suddenly saving £1000s on commuting and, by the by, not paying London prices (so goodbye London weighting)

    These adjustments are inevitable. Any company that continued to pay full London wages to someone only doing 1 or 2 days in London would go bust quick. Governments will follow

    BUT the Civil Service were already moving jobs out of London.

    Working from home solves that problem at a stroke
    Yes, but pay them less, obvs
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,802
    tlg86 said:

    Of Britain’s overall total of 65 medals, 16 were won by Scottish athletes.

    It's worth giving the more honest statistic: 11 of the 112 athletes who contributed to Britain's 65 medals were Scottish.
    The Scotsman is a Unionist paper. Dishonesty is a core component of their product.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,197
    tlg86 said:

    Of Britain’s overall total of 65 medals, 16 were won by Scottish athletes.

    It's worth giving the more honest statistic: 11 of the 112 athletes who contributed to Britain's 65 medals were Scottish.
    Is that more honest? Just seems like a different measure.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:


    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday




    That's the First Division out on strike then...

    Can we cut the pay of that anonymous minister instead? By 100% preferably
    BUT this has to be the future. Companies (and governments) cannot pay full whack for workers who are suddenly saving £1000s on commuting and, by the by, not paying London prices (so goodbye London weighting)

    These adjustments are inevitable. Any company that continued to pay full London wages to someone only doing 1 or 2 days in London would go bust quick. Governments will follow
    I don't get your logic. If said employee was as productive working from home why would the company go bust?

    I my experience wfh can be more productive, both personally and for the teams I have managed. Most people will work longer hours and still have more leisure time *because* they are not having to commute.

    Managing shirkers is a different issue but needs to be done on output not presenteeism - seeing someone sat at their desk does not mean they are being productive.

    Now, I get that companies might seek an opportunity to cut costs but I doubt any emplyoment contracts are going to allow for that.

  • But done on one side or two?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,013
    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:


    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday




    That's the First Division out on strike then...

    Can we cut the pay of that anonymous minister instead? By 100% preferably
    BUT this has to be the future. Companies (and governments) cannot pay full whack for workers who are suddenly saving £1000s on commuting and, by the by, not paying London prices (so goodbye London weighting)

    These adjustments are inevitable. Any company that continued to pay full London wages to someone only doing 1 or 2 days in London would go bust quick. Governments will follow
    That’s not how the market works. You may find suitable candidates willing to accept a role for less money than before, if they have found a way to reduce their living cost. But then again you might not, given their wages are a function of their productivity. And without the wasted time and energy of a commute, their productivity may in many cases increase.
    No, this is how it works
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,648

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:


    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday




    That's the First Division out on strike then...

    Can we cut the pay of that anonymous minister instead? By 100% preferably
    BUT this has to be the future. Companies (and governments) cannot pay full whack for workers who are suddenly saving £1000s on commuting and, by the by, not paying London prices (so goodbye London weighting)

    These adjustments are inevitable. Any company that continued to pay full London wages to someone only doing 1 or 2 days in London would go bust quick. Governments will follow
    I don't get your logic. If said employee was as productive working from home why would the company go bust?

    I my experience wfh can be more productive, both personally and for the teams I have managed. Most people will work longer hours and still have more leisure time *because* they are not having to commute.

    Managing shirkers is a different issue but needs to be done on output not presenteeism - seeing someone sat at their desk does not mean they are being productive.

    Now, I get that companies might seek an opportunity to cut costs but I doubt any emplyoment contracts are going to allow for that.

    Cost cutting happens all the time. You make it sound like employment contracts have so far prevented any form of cost cutting.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 4,215
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    BUT this has to be the future. Companies (and governments) cannot pay full whack for workers who are suddenly saving £1000s on commuting and, by the by, not paying London prices (so goodbye London weighting)

    These adjustments are inevitable. Any company that continued to pay full London wages to someone only doing 1 or 2 days in London would go bust quick. Governments will follow

    BUT the Civil Service were already moving jobs out of London.

    Working from home solves that problem at a stroke
    To be fair to the unnamed Minister, plenty of private companies have said exactly the same, particularly in the States. Morgan Stanley's CEO told his bankers, fine you want to live in Colorado, do that but you are not getting a NYC premium.

    The thing is that have an uniform national pay wage for civil servants, particularly more senior ones, causes a distorting effect not only on housing but also on jobs. Civil Service jobs in the regions become more attractive relative to private ones.

    One anecdote - a friend of mine is a consultant, lived in London in a two-bedroom flat in Zone 1, decided to go back to Manchester and got a job there, now has a 5 bedroom house in one of the nicer areas of Manchester. Great for her and a no-brainer but that has ripple effects.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,283
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Of Britain’s overall total of 65 medals, 16 were won by Scottish athletes.

    It's worth giving the more honest statistic: 11 of the 112 athletes who contributed to Britain's 65 medals were Scottish.
    Is that more honest? Just seems like a different measure.
    The original stat implies that around a quarter of our medals were won by Scottish athletes. That's misleading in my opinion.

    FWIW, I think Scottish athletes did very well. I wonder if Duncan Scott (1 gold and 3 silvers) will be nominated for SPoTY?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,471
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:


    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday




    That's the First Division out on strike then...

    Can we cut the pay of that anonymous minister instead? By 100% preferably
    BUT this has to be the future. Companies (and governments) cannot pay full whack for workers who are suddenly saving £1000s on commuting and, by the by, not paying London prices (so goodbye London weighting)

    These adjustments are inevitable. Any company that continued to pay full London wages to someone only doing 1 or 2 days in London would go bust quick. Governments will follow
    That’s not how the market works. You may find suitable candidates willing to accept a role for less money than before, if they have found a way to reduce their living cost. But then again you might not, given their wages are a function of their productivity. And without the wasted time and energy of a commute, their productivity may in many cases increase.
    No, this is how it works
    It’s like saying that companies must pay workers that live in flat shares less than people that live on their own, or they’ll go bust. You are normally lucid but you’re not making sense here.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,998
    Hooray, old rocker not antivax nutter, the world is healing.

    https://twitter.com/peterframpton/status/1424406390488055810?s=21
  • Isn't Facebook policy in the US now if you WFH abd move out of state you get paid less?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,905
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:


    Helen Miller
    @MsHelicat
    ·
    6m
    Monday's MAIL: Minister: Cut pay of civil servants who work at home #tomorrowspaperstoday




    That's the First Division out on strike then...

    Can we cut the pay of that anonymous minister instead? By 100% preferably
    BUT this has to be the future. Companies (and governments) cannot pay full whack for workers who are suddenly saving £1000s on commuting and, by the by, not paying London prices (so goodbye London weighting)

    These adjustments are inevitable. Any company that continued to pay full London wages to someone only doing 1 or 2 days in London would go bust quick. Governments will follow
    Depends. People will need to pay for office furniture and the house space to put it in if working from home long term, and employers will be saving a ton of money on not providing office space - the employees may want to get a share of that money being saved.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 4,215

    Isn't Facebook policy in the US now if you WFH abd move out of state you get paid less?

    Yes, that is what they want. Meeting some resistance but it is the direction of travel. Banks are saying the same.
This discussion has been closed.