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YouGov/Times “Blue Wall” poll finds six point CON to LAB swing since GE2019 – politicalbetting.com

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  • YoungTurkYoungTurk Posts: 158
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Perhaps just a tad severe...

    Chariot racing and horse archery are both ancient disciplines ripe for revival. In a previous thread I also invented elephant javelin, but the provision of the necessary animals could prove somewhat challenging. Horse javelin could still be fantastic though.

    Also, jousting.
    Or moving down a staircase the way the girl does in The Exorcist.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Worth remembering that the Tories won 47.5% or more of the vote in 317 seats in 2019. Tactical voting alone won't remove the Tories from power at the next election.

    Two things need to happen for the Conservatives to lose the next election:

    1. Their vote needs to fall back towards (and maybe even drop below) 40%
    2. Tactical voting needs to return.

    My gut is that 2024 will see the Conservative vote share drop back to 42% (give or take), and there’s a modest increase in tactical voting, resulting in a 20 to 40 seat Cons majority.
    I think the electoral geography is simply very favourable to the Tories at the moment.

    They can lose lots of votes in the South, without it putting many seats at risk. Modest vote gains in the North (from the Brexit Party) potentially bring a larger number of Labour seats into contention. The boundary changes are likely to be beneficial.

    We could easily see a result that outdoes 2001 - when Labour lost 2.5% vote share, but only 6 seats - and see the Tories lose vote share but gain net seats.
    Oh, that’s far from impossible. Indeed, the Conservatives gaining seats is probably no worse than a 25% shot.

    But it isn’t my central scenario. I think it is more likely than not that the post COVID boom will be in retreat in 2024, and Starmer is a less divisive figure than Corbyn.
    I reckon the Red Wall wanted Brexit and preferred Boris to Jezza, and the Blue Wall wanted Remain, but would rather have Leave+Boris than Remain+Jezza

    I'd say the Red Wall are the same now, but dislike Sir Keir even more than they did Jezza, whereas the Blue Wall prefer Sir Keir to Boris.

    So the Tories will do as well if not better in the Red Wall than they did in 2019, whilst losing seats in the Home Counties/Blue Wall
    I think that's spot on. I could easily see 4-5 seats with big Brexit votes in 2019 falling to Johnson, while the Conservatives lose a 10-25 seats in the South and the suburbs.
    Barnsley East and Central look likely Tory gains
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,552
    edited July 2021
    Floater said:
    They have been busy.....how is Boris going to afford yet another child? 6 or 8 or 10 of them....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066
    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    Floater said:
    Boris and Carrie's baby highs and lows have mirrored those of my girlfriend and I almost exactly, spooky
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,552
    The prime minister's wife announced the news on Instagram, saying she was hoping for a "rainbow baby" this Christmas.

    What's a rainbow baby?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
    I guess you can have a bit of fun at a philosophy tutorial debating the ethics of ritaul human sacrifice, but I'm not really convinced that it should be part of the core curriculum, so to speak.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Yes, seconded. Get that on the Red Button and I'd watch.

    But look, "Woke" is yet again being mistreated here. This poor wretch of a word has been dragged so far from its core definition (see below) as to become almost valueless. It's become a linguistic piece of junk.

    "To be not in denial that white supremacy racism and the patriarchy have played - and continue to play - a key and malign role in forging the world we live in."

    The PB.com blogging community are an educated bunch, skilled in language, and so I think we should be able to distinguish ourselves from the herd and use this word properly.
    So what is “the patriarchy” and why do they continue to play a malign role in society?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,651
    edited July 2021
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    Women should stop moaning about sexism in the workplace. Caligula ate babies.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TimT said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Quintus.

    In re fili praevii:

    Dura_Ace said:



    I can say things in French. But if I ask a question and receive a reply, usually I have no idea what the other person has said.

    We should just teach kids how to order a coffee, order a beer and say 'I love you' in a dozen languages and settle for that.

    My father said wryly that he learned French for 6 years at Winchester, and then took a trip to Paris;he found he was unable to ask the inspector when they would arrive.


    I was educated in French only until I was 12 and couldn't really write English at that age. When I got to English speaking schools in the US and UK I was amazed at how little grammar was taught compared to my Francophone education.

    Now that I'm a language tutor I see the same situation among British students. Teaching Latin would help slightly as they would be exposed to grammatical concepts like declension. There is almost no declension in English but it's very important in other languages. I regularly see anglophone students struggle with it in Russian.

    It could be fixed much more effectively by teaching Linguistics rather than Latin but that would not stimulate the desiccated G spots of Telegraph readers with type 2 diabetes in the same way so the tories won't do it.
    I wonder if the Latin is because its full of gender to troll the wokists?

    Also - because it gives those parents with money to send their brats to private schools an advantage? At the moment Latin can't seriously be used as an educational criterion. It's like an O level in sheep-farming - only the Welsh, etc., have a hope of doing it. But make it a general educational qualification ...

    Rachel Johnson (as in sister of ...) suggested rote learning of the classics was a soft route to Oxford.
    So why would Tories want more competition for their children's life chances?
    Tokenism. The Universities might dump the classics if it became obvious they are an upper middle class scam. You want a trickle of comp school entrants to point at and claim how inclusive it all is.
    There is not much to dump, the only universities which still do pure Classics/Latin degrees are Oxford and Cambridge, St Andrews, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Exeter and Nottingham, Manchester, Bristol, KCL and UCL and Royal Holloway.

    They are all pretty posh universities anyway
    So?

    If cutting the classics means an instant downwards improvement to the posho-meter reading , to help meet the targets mandated by government, they'll have to consider it very seriously.
    It is dumbing down and would make barely any difference whatsoever, as they are tiny courses anyway.

    We Tories are in power and in government and have set no state school target, we are not Labour and do not care, we support selection on merit and high academic standards, hence Williamson is pushing Latin in state schools. So if they want to suck up to Williamson if anything universities will expand their classics courses and do state school outreach for them.

    Plus not all classics students will be privately educated and Oxbridge are 60% state school now anyway
    ‘Leading Tory says they “do not care” about state schools’

    You need to be more careful about your choice of words if you want to progress in politics
    What an absurd distortion of what I said.

    I did not once say 'I do not care about state schools', merely I want selection on merit. If anything I care more than Carnyx as like Williamson I want to spread Latin in our state schools and expand excellence in them (a few more grammars would help too).

    If you would prefer to keep excellence and Latin confined to your alma mater of Eton and a few top public schools and a conveyor belt to Oxbridge and the top professions like law and medicine and banking that is your affair
    “ We Tories are in power and in government and have set no state school target, we are not Labour and do not care”

    “We Tories… have set no state school target, we … do not care”

    Of course it’s absurd. But that’s a direct quote.

    It’s meant as friendly advice, so don’t get upset.
    To be fair to HYUFD, 'we do not care about state schools' is not the same as 'we do not care about a state school target'. Still not good optics, but they are very different statements
    It’s complete misrepresentation.

    But any Tory saying “we don’t care” is on dangerous ground
  • CookieCookie Posts: 5,137
    isam said:


    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Worth remembering that the Tories won 47.5% or more of the vote in 317 seats in 2019. Tactical voting alone won't remove the Tories from power at the next election.

    Two things need to happen for the Conservatives to lose the next election:

    1. Their vote needs to fall back towards (and maybe even drop below) 40%
    2. Tactical voting needs to return.

    My gut is that 2024 will see the Conservative vote share drop back to 42% (give or take), and there’s a modest increase in tactical voting, resulting in a 20 to 40 seat Cons majority.
    I think the electoral geography is simply very favourable to the Tories at the moment.

    They can lose lots of votes in the South, without it putting many seats at risk. Modest vote gains in the North (from the Brexit Party) potentially bring a larger number of Labour seats into contention. The boundary changes are likely to be beneficial.

    We could easily see a result that outdoes 2001 - when Labour lost 2.5% vote share, but only 6 seats - and see the Tories lose vote share but gain net seats.
    Oh, that’s far from impossible. Indeed, the Conservatives gaining seats is probably no worse than a 25% shot.

    But it isn’t my central scenario. I think it is more likely than not that the post COVID boom will be in retreat in 2024, and Starmer is a less divisive figure than Corbyn.
    I reckon the Red Wall wanted Brexit and preferred Boris to Jezza, and the Blue Wall wanted Remain, but would rather have Leave+Boris than Remain+Jezza

    I'd say the Red Wall are the same now, but dislike Sir Keir even more than they did Jezza, whereas the Blue Wall prefer Sir Keir to Boris.

    So the Tories will do as well if not better in the Red Wall than they did in 2019, whilst losing seats in the Home Counties/Blue Wall
    I think that's spot on. I could easily see 4-5 seats with big Brexit votes in 2019 falling to Johnson, while the Conservatives lose a 10-25 seats in the South and the suburbs.
    Barnsley East and Central look likely Tory gains
    Ha ha - imagine what a visitor from 2007 would make of that comment.
  • YoungTurkYoungTurk Posts: 158
    YoungTurk said:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeanUnionC/status/1421439135483514885

    "Macron - resign!" This is in Aix-en-Provence in the south, population ~140K.

    https://twitter.com/AnonymeCitoyen/status/1421452581474287620

    "Freedom! Freedom!" Not sure which city this one is from. A mixture of trade unionist jackets (CGT), tricolour flags, and gilets jaunes. Lots of home-made banners.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,866
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    4x100 mixed swimming relay and mixed triathalon relay were both great to watch.

    Loved the format for both.

    Agreed, definitely would enjoy seeing the mixed format for 4x100m in the athletics.
    Agreed but to truly simulate the thrill and tactics of the swimming then one leg needs to be hurdles and another has thrm running backwards.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    The prime minister's wife announced the news on Instagram, saying she was hoping for a "rainbow baby" this Christmas.

    What's a rainbow baby?

    One born after an earlier miscarriage
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,866
    Also, without having looked it up I would have blithely assumed the biggest time difference between men and women would have been on the front crawl and it turns out that is totally wrong!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,552
    edited July 2021
    isam said:

    The prime minister's wife announced the news on Instagram, saying she was hoping for a "rainbow baby" this Christmas.

    What's a rainbow baby?

    One born after an earlier miscarriage
    I have never heard that expression before, but i don't have kids so i am rather uninformed on such matters
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,866
    You've got to feel for a certain American airline are the moment.

    https://twitter.com/misssoniarao/status/1421259527593369611?s=19
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
    I guess you can have a bit of fun at a philosophy tutorial debating the ethics of ritaul human sacrifice, but I'm not really convinced that it should be part of the core curriculum, so to speak.
    You patriarchal wacist, you.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    4x100 mixed swimming relay and mixed triathalon relay were both great to watch.

    Loved the format for both.

    Agreed, definitely would enjoy seeing the mixed format for 4x100m in the athletics.
    Agreed but to truly simulate the thrill and tactics of the swimming then one leg needs to be hurdles and another has thrm running backwards.
    I thought instead of the Hundred, they could have tried mixed team cricket where Women get double the runs for their shots when men are bowling to them and men get half the runs when women are bowling.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,535
    isam said:

    Greens will not be +7 in these seats in an actual GE when the government is being decided me thinks.

    The Corbynites retreat, I reckon they will do well
    The difficulty the Greens have is that there were only five seats where they were in double digits in 2019. They therefore struggle with the whole "we can win here" component that is so important in FPTP - how do you convince people that you're not a wasted vote?

    The LibDems achieved that by building local strength - using council elections as a springboard to Westminster success. Can the Greens do similar? Or will their votes end up being spent tactically?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited July 2021

    isam said:

    The prime minister's wife announced the news on Instagram, saying she was hoping for a "rainbow baby" this Christmas.

    What's a rainbow baby?

    One born after an earlier miscarriage
    I have never heard that expression before, but i don't have kids so i am rather uninformed on such matters
    I had to look it up to be honest, but it was what I had thought it would be. I'm in the same boat, might name him Geoffrey George Bungle *******!!!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,907
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Perhaps just a tad severe...

    Chariot racing and horse archery are both ancient disciplines ripe for revival. In a previous thread I also invented elephant javelin, but the provision of the necessary animals could prove somewhat challenging. Horse javelin could still be fantastic though.

    Also, jousting.
    Horse archery is allegedly possible because at the gallop horses have all 4 feet of the ground at one stage, giving you the still platform you need for archery. Elephants don't gallop, making javelin chucking problematic.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 255
    Yesterday @archiemanners and I convinced anti-vaxxer Piers Corbyn to take £10,000 he thought came from AstraZeneca to stop criticising their vaccine. Except it was monopoly money and we recorded the whole thing.

    https://twitter.com/joshua_pieters/status/1421464141697540099
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,552
    edited July 2021
    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    4x100 mixed swimming relay and mixed triathalon relay were both great to watch.

    Loved the format for both.

    Agreed, definitely would enjoy seeing the mixed format for 4x100m in the athletics.
    Agreed but to truly simulate the thrill and tactics of the swimming then one leg needs to be hurdles and another has thrm running backwards.
    I thought instead of the Hundred, they could have tried mixed team cricket where Women get double the runs for their shots when men are bowling to them and men get half the runs when women are bowling.
    There is a massive mismatch in women's cricket though....women never face anywhere near 90mph, such that it would be dangerous (not a sexist thing, i played semi-pro and normally faced 80, but on a handful of occasions faced high 80s and I was in personal danger) and 60mph seamers to a male pro is going to be sent into the stands far too often.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,294

    The prime minister's wife announced the news on Instagram, saying she was hoping for a "rainbow baby" this Christmas.

    What's a rainbow baby?

    https://www.parents.com/baby/what-it-means-to-be-a-rainbow-baby-and-why-rainbow-babies-are-beautiful/
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    Greens will not be +7 in these seats in an actual GE when the government is being decided me thinks.

    The Corbynites retreat, I reckon they will do well
    The difficulty the Greens have is that there were only five seats where they were in double digits in 2019. They therefore struggle with the whole "we can win here" component that is so important in FPTP - how do you convince people that you're not a wasted vote?

    The LibDems achieved that by building local strength - using council elections as a springboard to Westminster success. Can the Greens do similar? Or will their votes end up being spent tactically?
    I think the Corbynite types vote with heart not head. The hate Sir Keir as much as Boris, so what does it matter?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,535
    YoungTurk said:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeanUnionC/status/1421439135483514885

    "Macron - resign!" This is in Aix-en-Provence in the south, population ~140K.

    Aix-en-Provence is the spiritual home of the Front National (albeit one where they took a battering in the elections this year), and where they would habitually have their annual conference. If there's one place in France I'd expect to be anti-Macron, it would be there.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,439
    Alistair said:

    Also, without having looked it up I would have blithely assumed the biggest time difference between men and women would have been on the front crawl and it turns out that is totally wrong!

    I'd have guessed butterfly as it needs the most upper body strength.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited July 2021

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    4x100 mixed swimming relay and mixed triathalon relay were both great to watch.

    Loved the format for both.

    Agreed, definitely would enjoy seeing the mixed format for 4x100m in the athletics.
    Agreed but to truly simulate the thrill and tactics of the swimming then one leg needs to be hurdles and another has thrm running backwards.
    I thought instead of the Hundred, they could have tried mixed team cricket where Women get double the runs for their shots when men are bowling to them and men get half the runs when women are bowling.
    There is a massive mismatch in women's cricket though....women never face anywhere near 90mph, such that it would be dangerous (not a sexist thing, i played semi-pro and normally faced 80, but on a handful of occasions faced high 80s and I was in personal danger) and 60mph seamers to a male pro is going to be sent into the stands far too often.
    Yes, but the scoring system should take care of that. A six is only worth 3, and 4 just a couple when men face women. Maybe men have to come off a short run up when bowling to women, as well as the doubling of runs
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,569
    Official figures show the UK has recorded 26,144 new COVID cases and a further 71 deaths in the latest 24 hour-period

    For more on this and other news visit http://news.sky.com
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,058
    So are the Jamaicans nailed on for the 4 x100m female relay or do they refuse to give each other the baton?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,497
    edited July 2021
    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    Greens will not be +7 in these seats in an actual GE when the government is being decided me thinks.

    The Corbynites retreat, I reckon they will do well
    The difficulty the Greens have is that there were only five seats where they were in double digits in 2019. They therefore struggle with the whole "we can win here" component that is so important in FPTP - how do you convince people that you're not a wasted vote?

    The LibDems achieved that by building local strength - using council elections as a springboard to Westminster success. Can the Greens do similar? Or will their votes end up being spent tactically?
    I think the Corbynite types vote with heart not head. The hate Sir Keir as much as Boris, so what does it matter?
    The Corbynite types tempted by the Greens hate the Tories much, much more than they hate Labour. It's not just about the leaders. So when push comes to shove in some seats they'll hold their nose and vote Labour: not for Starmer but against Tories. Just as quite a few Tories aren't keen on Boris but still vote Tory.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,552
    edited July 2021
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    4x100 mixed swimming relay and mixed triathalon relay were both great to watch.

    Loved the format for both.

    Agreed, definitely would enjoy seeing the mixed format for 4x100m in the athletics.
    Agreed but to truly simulate the thrill and tactics of the swimming then one leg needs to be hurdles and another has thrm running backwards.
    I thought instead of the Hundred, they could have tried mixed team cricket where Women get double the runs for their shots when men are bowling to them and men get half the runs when women are bowling.
    There is a massive mismatch in women's cricket though....women never face anywhere near 90mph, such that it would be dangerous (not a sexist thing, i played semi-pro and normally faced 80, but on a handful of occasions faced high 80s and I was in personal danger) and 60mph seamers to a male pro is going to be sent into the stands far too often.
    Yes, but the scoring system should take care of that. A six is only worth 3, and 4 just a couple when men face women.
    I don't think it would though. I don't think it would be a great spectacle to women not being able to play 90mph fast bowling, while their bowling gets dispatched basically every ball.

    At the moment, the gulf in standards is far too wide. Most women would struggle to get in a local Premier league men's team. 60mph seam bowling is village cricket stuff. There is the odd except in the women's game, but no strength in depth at the moment.

    That isn't to say the women's game can't develop, but at the moment it is very poor quality, which isn't true in other sports e.g. swimming, athletics, triathlon, i could train morning, noon and night and I am still going to get hammered by elite women in those sports.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,651
    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Yes, seconded. Get that on the Red Button and I'd watch.

    But look, "Woke" is yet again being mistreated here. This poor wretch of a word has been dragged so far from its core definition (see below) as to become almost valueless. It's become a linguistic piece of junk.

    "To be not in denial that white supremacy racism and the patriarchy have played - and continue to play - a key and malign role in forging the world we live in."

    The PB.com blogging community are an educated bunch, skilled in language, and so I think we should be able to distinguish ourselves from the herd and use this word properly.
    So what is “the patriarchy” and why do they continue to play a malign role in society?
    Other than in Michael Douglas films it's an 'It' rather than a 'They'.

    I'd describe the Patriarchy as a state of affairs where power is wielded mainly by men, and where the power that women do have is derived mainly through men, or by courtesy of men.

    Why is this malign? Because it shortchanges half the population.

    Why is it still around today? Because those who benefit from it are disproportionately powerful.

    Why are they disproportionately powerful? ... Because they are men. Boom Boom.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Maybe Cortes was not too bad after all.

    MesoAmerican cultures were ridiculously grisly, but that also makes them endlessly fascinating, in a macabre way


    Whenever you think you have reached the depths of their depravity, they have the capacity to surprise on the downside. The Moche Culture of north Peru (circa 8th century AD) is particularly good at this. OMFG. They worshipped a tarantula God who demanded they sacrifice their own relatives, they gave the victims special drugs so the blood ran extra slow and the sacrifice took hours. During this process, the family would REDACTED REDACTED

    Meanwhile the Aztecs could sacrifice thousands of people in a single day in their capital, Tenochtitlan

    Here's a Guardian article denouncing the evil Spanish for destroying this marvellous culture, in particular it complains about

    "massacres of some of our earliest thinkers such as the Aztec"

    SOME OF OUR EARLIEST THINKERS



    https://www.theguardian.com/education/commentisfree/2015/mar/23/philosophy-white-men-university-courses

    The Genesis Secret deals with this in some detail - eg The Swedish boiling scene.

    Tlaloc's devotees would rip out the fingernails of children, and catch their tears in cups.

    Xipe Totec translates as "Our Beloved Lord the Flayed One". His followers did what is says on the tin.

    The people of Caanaan and Carthage had some charming practices as well. The most valuable sacrifice was that which was dearest. Hence, in times of trouble, you would burn your son and heir, or if you only had a daughter, you followed the example of Jephtha.
    The ancient Jews would troop out of Jerusalem to a little vale beyond the city walls, then they would toss their living babies into a huge, red hot brass bowl sculpted in the form of the demon Moloch. As they did this, priests banged drums to drown out the screams of the dying children

    The little vale is still there. It is also known as Gehenna, and Hell, and it is probably the "valley of the shadow of death" - that's where the phrase comes from

    To this day it is not used for building and it still has an awful, haunted atmosphere. I once found a chunk of an ancient jar handle there and brought it home. I sometimes wonder if it exudes malignancy. Or maybe just sadness
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Worth remembering that the Tories won 47.5% or more of the vote in 317 seats in 2019. Tactical voting alone won't remove the Tories from power at the next election.

    Two things need to happen for the Conservatives to lose the next election:

    1. Their vote needs to fall back towards (and maybe even drop below) 40%
    2. Tactical voting needs to return.

    My gut is that 2024 will see the Conservative vote share drop back to 42% (give or take), and there’s a modest increase in tactical voting, resulting in a 20 to 40 seat Cons majority.
    I think the electoral geography is simply very favourable to the Tories at the moment.

    They can lose lots of votes in the South, without it putting many seats at risk. Modest vote gains in the North (from the Brexit Party) potentially bring a larger number of Labour seats into contention. The boundary changes are likely to be beneficial.

    We could easily see a result that outdoes 2001 - when Labour lost 2.5% vote share, but only 6 seats - and see the Tories lose vote share but gain net seats.
    I rather doubt it. Had Galloway not been standing, Batley & Spen would have seen a Labour majority of 5,000 - 6,000 - and a pro- Labour swing there of over 3%. That would win back quite a few seats in the North - including both Bury seats, Leigh, Heywood & Middleton etc.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    IshmaelZ said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Perhaps just a tad severe...

    Chariot racing and horse archery are both ancient disciplines ripe for revival. In a previous thread I also invented elephant javelin, but the provision of the necessary animals could prove somewhat challenging. Horse javelin could still be fantastic though.

    Also, jousting.
    Horse archery is allegedly possible because at the gallop horses have all 4 feet of the ground at one stage, giving you the still platform you need for archery. Elephants don't gallop, making javelin chucking problematic.
    The gents of the central Asian republics, developed a version of horse archery with the AK....

    Quite something to see a bloke charging along on a horse, standup in the stirrups, pull an AK out of a holster and start hammering targets.....
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,295
    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:
    A computer that could smell someone ten miles away and identify which Olympic sized swimming pool has a drop of blood in it would be a remarkable machine. Dogs’ smell is somewhere between 1,000 and 10,000 times better than ours and it occupies between 30-40% of their brain capacity.
    And what does my dog do with this power? Spends as much time as possible sniffing where other dogs have done a wee...
    We did an introduction to scent training last weekend, and there is some more useful stuff you can do with your dog if you give it some time. For example it is relatively easy to train your dog to find stuff like your car keys, and the trainer’s dog is apparently well known for tracking down missing cats near where they live.
    Right. I know what I'm going to be doing this weekend - training the dog to find my reading glasses.
    What breed, might I inquire? Always interesting to see what breeds people pick ...
    A mixture of collie and NZ Huntaway. Came from a local farmer. His parents were working dogs. He tries to herd the cats. Has a wonderful sweet personality.
    How interesting - and presumably needing plenty of walkies and things to do.
    Yes - but here in the Lakes it's ideal for him. We have a huge garden, it's a quiet village so he wanders off to see his doggy friends and he loves swimming in the sea and racing round the beach. He goes running with my daughter.

    He's getting on a bit now. I've never had a dog before but am converted. Husband will be utterly distraught when he goes. He loves that dog more than me. (I answer back - 😁.)

    https://imgur.com/xsHjh5V

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Yes, seconded. Get that on the Red Button and I'd watch.

    But look, "Woke" is yet again being mistreated here. This poor wretch of a word has been dragged so far from its core definition (see below) as to become almost valueless. It's become a linguistic piece of junk.

    "To be not in denial that white supremacy racism and the patriarchy have played - and continue to play - a key and malign role in forging the world we live in."

    The PB.com blogging community are an educated bunch, skilled in language, and so I think we should be able to distinguish ourselves from the herd and use this word properly.
    So what is “the patriarchy” and why do they continue to play a malign role in society?
    Other than in Michael Douglas films it's an 'It' rather than a 'They'.

    I'd describe the Patriarchy as a state of affairs where power is wielded mainly by men, and where the power that women do have is derived mainly through men, or by courtesy of men.

    Why is this malign? Because it shortchanges half the population.

    Why is it still around today? Because those who benefit from it are disproportionately powerful.

    Why are they disproportionately powerful? ... Because they are men. Boom Boom.
    So effectively being woke resolves to “must overthrow the people in power”?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 11,450

    Floater said:
    They have been busy.....how is Boris going to afford yet another child? 6 or 8 or 10 of them....
    Is it just coincidence the Telegraph is quoted or were they given the story first? If so, maybe that's your answer.
  • CandyCandy Posts: 51
    Leon said:



    It's a genuine moral puzzle. Did these civilisations deserve to survive?

    In particular, the Aztecs were basically the Nazis of MesoAmerica. Extremely aggressive, militaristic, ethnocentric, bloodthirsty, autocratic at the top and servile at the bottom, and absolutely obsessed with death and blood. They were so nasty even the other gruesome, human-sacrificing Mexican cultures hated them (which is one reason the Aztec Empire fell so easily to Cortez, he got the Aztecs' local enemies on side)

    And yet a unique and remarkable civilisation - for all its hideous flaws - was totally obliterated, and much was lost

    Was this ultimately good, or bad? I can never quite decide.

    The story of Cortes' mistress Malintzin, is fascinating. She served as his intepreter, and she also organised the grand coalition of disgruntled tribes who were utterfly fed-up of the Aztecs. (All those human sacrifices the Aztecs did were of the other tribes they dominated in a reign of terror).

    She was key to the defeat of the Aztecs. Without her and the other tribes, it would never have happened.

    See the following for more:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/26/world/after-500-years-cortes-s-girlfriend-is-not-forgiven.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,552
    edited July 2021

    Floater said:
    They have been busy.....how is Boris going to afford yet another child? 6 or 8 or 10 of them....
    Is it just coincidence the Telegraph is quoted or were they given the story first? If so, maybe that's your answer.
    I believe all the reports come from carrie posting it on her Instagram first.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    UK cases by specimen date

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  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,058

    isam said:

    The prime minister's wife announced the news on Instagram, saying she was hoping for a "rainbow baby" this Christmas.

    What's a rainbow baby?

    One born after an earlier miscarriage
    I have never heard that expression before, but i don't have kids so i am rather uninformed on such matters
    We have a child that would qualify but I have never heard of it either. I am not sure if I like the idea. The stillbirth was one of the very worst days of my life. The subsequent child was and is a joy but in their own right and does not dull the pain.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    UK cases by specimen date scaled to 100K

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    England PCR positivity

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236
    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Yes, seconded. Get that on the Red Button and I'd watch.

    But look, "Woke" is yet again being mistreated here. This poor wretch of a word has been dragged so far from its core definition (see below) as to become almost valueless. It's become a linguistic piece of junk.

    "To be not in denial that white supremacy racism and the patriarchy have played - and continue to play - a key and malign role in forging the world we live in."

    The PB.com blogging community are an educated bunch, skilled in language, and so I think we should be able to distinguish ourselves from the herd and use this word properly.
    So what is “the patriarchy” and why do they continue to play a malign role in society?
    Other than in Michael Douglas films it's an 'It' rather than a 'They'.

    I'd describe the Patriarchy as a state of affairs where power is wielded mainly by men, and where the power that women do have is derived mainly through men, or by courtesy of men.

    Why is this malign? Because it shortchanges half the population.

    Why is it still around today? Because those who benefit from it are disproportionately powerful.

    Why are they disproportionately powerful? ... Because they are men. Boom Boom.
    So effectively being woke resolves to “must overthrow the people in power”?
    It's a case of First World Problems.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    UK case summary

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  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    ...
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    The prime minister's wife announced the news on Instagram, saying she was hoping for a "rainbow baby" this Christmas.

    What's a rainbow baby?

    One born after an earlier miscarriage
    I have never heard that expression before, but i don't have kids so i am rather uninformed on such matters
    We have a child that would qualify but I have never heard of it either. I am not sure if I like the idea. The stillbirth was one of the very worst days of my life. The subsequent child was and is a joy but in their own right and does not dull the pain.
    So sorry to hear that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    UK hospitals

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,552
    I presume the daily iSAGE tweets have started again about how the case number drop isnt a real case number drop...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    UK Deaths

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    UK R

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  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,150
    Some talk in the media about how people are shunning nightclubs because they are unsure about how safe they are. There is, of course, another plausible explanation...

    That having had 15 months without the "nightclub experience" a large number of people have realised that in general the nightclub experience really isn't that much fun, and they really don't miss it that much!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    Age related data

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    Age related data scaled to 100K

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,552
    edited July 2021
    One big encouraging thing from this current wave, the number of daily deaths (by actual day of death) has never broken 100. SPI-M modellers were talking 100-200 being very likely. And obviously compared to previous waves where we got 1000+ days.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    Vaccinations

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  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,150
    isam said:

    ...

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    The prime minister's wife announced the news on Instagram, saying she was hoping for a "rainbow baby" this Christmas.

    What's a rainbow baby?

    One born after an earlier miscarriage
    I have never heard that expression before, but i don't have kids so i am rather uninformed on such matters
    We have a child that would qualify but I have never heard of it either. I am not sure if I like the idea. The stillbirth was one of the very worst days of my life. The subsequent child was and is a joy but in their own right and does not dull the pain.
    So sorry to hear that.
    Although, whilst not pretending to remotely have any concept of the mental emotion of the experience, i would imagine that a stillbirth is many, many times worse than a miscarriage (that will often happen fairly early on in a pregnancy).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    Case rate changes

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  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954
    alex_ said:

    Some talk in the media about how people are shunning nightclubs because they are unsure about how safe they are. There is, of course, another plausible explanation...

    That having had 15 months without the "nightclub experience" a large number of people have realised that in general the nightclub experience really isn't that much fun, and they really don't miss it that much!

    I always hated nightclubs. Loved live gigs, hated clubs. Which was a problem if you came of age in the early nineties as I did.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,552
    alex_ said:

    Some talk in the media about how people are shunning nightclubs because they are unsure about how safe they are. There is, of course, another plausible explanation...

    That having had 15 months without the "nightclub experience" a large number of people have realised that in general the nightclub experience really isn't that much fun, and they really don't miss it that much!

    I think MaxPB is trying to make up for everybody else.....
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954

    One big encouraging thing from this current wave, the number of daily deaths (by actual day of death) has never broken 100. SPI-M modellers were talking 100-200 being very likely. And obviously compared to previous waves where we got 1000+ days.

    Indeed. Fingers crossed and all that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066
    Candy said:

    Leon said:



    It's a genuine moral puzzle. Did these civilisations deserve to survive?

    In particular, the Aztecs were basically the Nazis of MesoAmerica. Extremely aggressive, militaristic, ethnocentric, bloodthirsty, autocratic at the top and servile at the bottom, and absolutely obsessed with death and blood. They were so nasty even the other gruesome, human-sacrificing Mexican cultures hated them (which is one reason the Aztec Empire fell so easily to Cortez, he got the Aztecs' local enemies on side)

    And yet a unique and remarkable civilisation - for all its hideous flaws - was totally obliterated, and much was lost

    Was this ultimately good, or bad? I can never quite decide.

    The story of Cortes' mistress Malintzin, is fascinating. She served as his intepreter, and she also organised the grand coalition of disgruntled tribes who were utterfly fed-up of the Aztecs. (All those human sacrifices the Aztecs did were of the other tribes they dominated in a reign of terror).

    She was key to the defeat of the Aztecs. Without her and the other tribes, it would never have happened.

    See the following for more:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/26/world/after-500-years-cortes-s-girlfriend-is-not-forgiven.html
    Fascinating indeed

    One of the most amazing places I have ever been is a tiny stone hamlet called Toloriu, in the Catalan Pyrenees

    Across the valley from the village is a tumbledown farmhouse. Running to ruin, sheep everywhere. The day I went it was inhabited mainly by feral cows that glared at me

    And yet this farmhouse was the last home of Xipaguazin Montezuma, the daughter of the Aztec Emperor, who married a gnarly but quite impoverished conquistador and moved back to Spain

    What an incredible life arc. She started as the daughter of a demi God, surrounded by humming priests adorned with quetzal feathers and flayed human skin, every morning she would see the great nobles of the empire piercing their penises with cactus thorns, even as the latest prisoners were paraded past the sunburned pyramids. At night she feasted, literally, with jaguars at her side, in the sacred torchlight

    She ended her days washing a bucket in a chilly farmhouse, looking at at disgruntled sheep and helping to make the cheese after church
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,552
    edited July 2021
    DougSeal said:

    One big encouraging thing from this current wave, the number of daily deaths (by actual day of death) has never broken 100. SPI-M modellers were talking 100-200 being very likely. And obviously compared to previous waves where we got 1000+ days.

    Indeed. Fingers crossed and all that.
    Not to be too macabre, but it would also be interesting to know how many were vaccinated vs unvaccinated, and age profile.

    Are we now down to a killer disease of the unvaccinated and the very old and vulnerable?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    alex_ said:

    isam said:

    ...

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    The prime minister's wife announced the news on Instagram, saying she was hoping for a "rainbow baby" this Christmas.

    What's a rainbow baby?

    One born after an earlier miscarriage
    I have never heard that expression before, but i don't have kids so i am rather uninformed on such matters
    We have a child that would qualify but I have never heard of it either. I am not sure if I like the idea. The stillbirth was one of the very worst days of my life. The subsequent child was and is a joy but in their own right and does not dull the pain.
    So sorry to hear that.
    Although, whilst not pretending to remotely have any concept of the mental emotion of the experience, i would imagine that a stillbirth is many, many times worse than a miscarriage (that will often happen fairly early on in a pregnancy).
    I would say you're absolutely right
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,651
    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Yes, seconded. Get that on the Red Button and I'd watch.

    But look, "Woke" is yet again being mistreated here. This poor wretch of a word has been dragged so far from its core definition (see below) as to become almost valueless. It's become a linguistic piece of junk.

    "To be not in denial that white supremacy racism and the patriarchy have played - and continue to play - a key and malign role in forging the world we live in."

    The PB.com blogging community are an educated bunch, skilled in language, and so I think we should be able to distinguish ourselves from the herd and use this word properly.
    So what is “the patriarchy” and why do they continue to play a malign role in society?
    Other than in Michael Douglas films it's an 'It' rather than a 'They'.

    I'd describe the Patriarchy as a state of affairs where power is wielded mainly by men, and where the power that women do have is derived mainly through men, or by courtesy of men.

    Why is this malign? Because it shortchanges half the population.

    Why is it still around today? Because those who benefit from it are disproportionately powerful.

    Why are they disproportionately powerful? ... Because they are men. Boom Boom.
    So effectively being woke resolves to “must overthrow the people in power”?
    No way. Nothing like as fruity.

    "Woke" means only what I said - not in denial that white supremacy racism and the patriarchy have played, and continue to play, a key and malign role in forging the world we live in. It doesn't mean you have to DO anything about it. You can be active woke or lazy woke. Although "lazy" is harsh since overturning entrenched power structures and deep seated assumptions is very thirsty work indeed.

    We're just talking about the meaning of the word. Woke = that.

    And therefore "not Woke" means NOT not in denial that white supremacy racism and the patriarchy have played, and continue to play, a key and malign role in ... etc.

    If you apply this to all those who noisily self-identify as "not Woke" - ie those who make a bit of a deal of it - you will find it is 100% accurate.

    Go ahead, give it a whirl.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited July 2021
    Blue are the positives and Orange the Net Satisfaction




  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    Darker colours are Positives, Lighter shades Net Satisfaction

    Boris Blue and Sir Keir Red



  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,439
    alex_ said:

    Some talk in the media about how people are shunning nightclubs because they are unsure about how safe they are. There is, of course, another plausible explanation...

    That having had 15 months without the "nightclub experience" a large number of people have realised that in general the nightclub experience really isn't that much fun, and they really don't miss it that much!

    I was out in a late night bar yesterday and it was packed.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,651
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
    Aren't they just saying that along with the bad stuff the Aztecs made some important and positive contributions to the development of human civilization?

    In which case - if I'm right to assume they are saying that, and they are right, or at least arguably right, to say it - it's not really like calling Hitler a valuable early car designer.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    Some talk in the media about how people are shunning nightclubs because they are unsure about how safe they are. There is, of course, another plausible explanation...

    That having had 15 months without the "nightclub experience" a large number of people have realised that in general the nightclub experience really isn't that much fun, and they really don't miss it that much!

    I was out in a late night bar yesterday and it was packed.
    Part of growing up was realising how shit the average nightclub is.

    They really only came about because of the licensing divide between pub/bar and nightclub. When that went away, many new and interesting hybrid businesses popped up.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,608
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
    I guess you can have a bit of fun at a philosophy tutorial debating the ethics of ritaul human sacrifice, but I'm not really convinced that it should be part of the core curriculum, so to speak.
    Philosophy, for all its problems, is the one subject where is is proper to ask otherwise unaskable questions like: Is human sacrifice wrong, and if so why. Would it still be wrong if society thought it was right (like some societies did).



  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
    Aren't they just saying that along with the bad stuff the Aztecs made some important and positive contributions to the development of human civilization?

    In which case - if I'm right to assume they are saying that, and they are right, or at least arguably right, to say it - it's not really like calling Hitler a valuable early car designer.
    It is interesting to view the err... continuity of certain economic policies that the Fascists espoused. Which is not entirely surprising really, since the economic advisers the Fascists used didn't retire to monasteries in 1945. Where they ended up is both interesting and surprising. Or not, really.

    Should we then say that Hitler and Mussolini were valuable economic thinkers? If not, why not?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 5,137

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    Some talk in the media about how people are shunning nightclubs because they are unsure about how safe they are. There is, of course, another plausible explanation...

    That having had 15 months without the "nightclub experience" a large number of people have realised that in general the nightclub experience really isn't that much fun, and they really don't miss it that much!

    I was out in a late night bar yesterday and it was packed.
    Part of growing up was realising how shit the average nightclub is.

    They really only came about because of the licensing divide between pub/bar and nightclub. When that went away, many new and interesting hybrid businesses popped up.
    Well, it depends. If you're just looking to drink until late, they're not ideal. If you like to dance - or if you like to dance to a specific genre of music - there is nowhere else.

    My days in the indie clubs of Manchester and Sheffield are well behind me now. But I have happy memories of them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,439
    Bloody hell Boris is having another kid, how many is that? 8?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,866
    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    4x100 mixed swimming relay and mixed triathalon relay were both great to watch.

    Loved the format for both.

    The swimming relay in particular. With the mixed sexes and the tactics it was fascinating.
    Not sure why the triathlon had to be woman man woman man.
    Allowing the teams to send them off in any order would have added an extra layer of complexity and interest.
    Would it not be obvious to go man - man - woman - woman due to drafting in the cycling?
    Yeah if you were free to choose it would have to be mmff as the cycle drafting would be so crucial. Miss out on a chance of joining the leading pack after the first swim and you are done. Its a sprint event, there's not much scope for clawing back time.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,651

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
    Aren't they just saying that along with the bad stuff the Aztecs made some important and positive contributions to the development of human civilization?

    In which case - if I'm right to assume they are saying that, and they are right, or at least arguably right, to say it - it's not really like calling Hitler a valuable early car designer.
    It is interesting to view the err... continuity of certain economic policies that the Fascists espoused. Which is not entirely surprising really, since the economic advisers the Fascists used didn't retire to monasteries in 1945. Where they ended up is both interesting and surprising. Or not, really.

    Should we then say that Hitler and Mussolini were valuable economic thinkers? If not, why not?
    Can we de-enigmatize please, Malmsers old bean. Lift the shroud as it were.

    What significant macro-economic policy innovations did Hitler introduce that we still gain value from today?

    You tell me what they are and then we can assess whether he deserves a title of "valuable economic thinker".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    edited July 2021
    Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    Some talk in the media about how people are shunning nightclubs because they are unsure about how safe they are. There is, of course, another plausible explanation...

    That having had 15 months without the "nightclub experience" a large number of people have realised that in general the nightclub experience really isn't that much fun, and they really don't miss it that much!

    I was out in a late night bar yesterday and it was packed.
    Part of growing up was realising how shit the average nightclub is.

    They really only came about because of the licensing divide between pub/bar and nightclub. When that went away, many new and interesting hybrid businesses popped up.
    Well, it depends. If you're just looking to drink until late, they're not ideal. If you like to dance - or if you like to dance to a specific genre of music - there is nowhere else.

    My days in the indie clubs of Manchester and Sheffield are well behind me now. But I have happy memories of them.
    Many of them are shit for dancing and give you shit prices for shit drinks. Plus the annoyance of the "security staff" and their thugishness and drug dealing.

    The Electric Ballroom on a metal night, on the other hand....
  • Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:
    A computer that could smell someone ten miles away and identify which Olympic sized swimming pool has a drop of blood in it would be a remarkable machine. Dogs’ smell is somewhere between 1,000 and 10,000 times better than ours and it occupies between 30-40% of their brain capacity.
    And what does my dog do with this power? Spends as much time as possible sniffing where other dogs have done a wee...
    We did an introduction to scent training last weekend, and there is some more useful stuff you can do with your dog if you give it some time. For example it is relatively easy to train your dog to find stuff like your car keys, and the trainer’s dog is apparently well known for tracking down missing cats near where they live.
    Right. I know what I'm going to be doing this weekend - training the dog to find my reading glasses.
    What breed, might I inquire? Always interesting to see what breeds people pick ...
    A mixture of collie and NZ Huntaway. Came from a local farmer. His parents were working dogs. He tries to herd the cats. Has a wonderful sweet personality.
    How interesting - and presumably needing plenty of walkies and things to do.
    Yes - but here in the Lakes it's ideal for him. We have a huge garden, it's a quiet village so he wanders off to see his doggy friends and he loves swimming in the sea and racing round the beach. He goes running with my daughter.

    He's getting on a bit now. I've never had a dog before but am converted. Husband will be utterly distraught when he goes. He loves that dog more than me. (I answer back - 😁.)

    https://imgur.com/xsHjh5V

    That's a good dog (but then they all are). I and my dog have just (some time in the past month) had our ten thousandth walk.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
    Aren't they just saying that along with the bad stuff the Aztecs made some important and positive contributions to the development of human civilization?

    In which case - if I'm right to assume they are saying that, and they are right, or at least arguably right, to say it - it's not really like calling Hitler a valuable early car designer.
    It is interesting to view the err... continuity of certain economic policies that the Fascists espoused. Which is not entirely surprising really, since the economic advisers the Fascists used didn't retire to monasteries in 1945. Where they ended up is both interesting and surprising. Or not, really.

    Should we then say that Hitler and Mussolini were valuable economic thinkers? If not, why not?
    Can we de-enigmatize please, Malmsers old bean. Lift the shroud as it were.

    What significant macro-economic policy innovations did Hitler introduce that we still gain value from today?

    You tell me what they are and then we can assess whether he deserves a title of "valuable economic thinker".
    You need an economist for much of it. But some of the modern games that central banks play with the economy relate to Schacht's innovations. Given that the Nazi's tore up the old rule books and wanted the "new", it is not surprising that that is what they got.

    On the industrial side the recent Biden/Intel strategic on shoring is exactly the kind of thing that the er... Corporatists wanted.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,294
    Well it didn’t take long to kick off in the rugby.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,295
    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Yes, seconded. Get that on the Red Button and I'd watch.

    But look, "Woke" is yet again being mistreated here. This poor wretch of a word has been dragged so far from its core definition (see below) as to become almost valueless. It's become a linguistic piece of junk.

    "To be not in denial that white supremacy racism and the patriarchy have played - and continue to play - a key and malign role in forging the world we live in."

    The PB.com blogging community are an educated bunch, skilled in language, and so I think we should be able to distinguish ourselves from the herd and use this word properly.
    So what is “the patriarchy” and why do they continue to play a malign role in society?
    Other than in Michael Douglas films it's an 'It' rather than a 'They'.

    I'd describe the Patriarchy as a state of affairs where power is wielded mainly by men, and where the power that women do have is derived mainly through men, or by courtesy of men.

    Why is this malign? Because it shortchanges half the population.

    Why is it still around today? Because those who benefit from it are disproportionately powerful.

    Why are they disproportionately powerful? ... Because they are men. Boom Boom.
    So effectively being woke resolves to “must overthrow the people in power”?
    No. But it would be nice if men stopped telling women what they are, how they should behave and how they should describe themselves. They've been doing it for thousands of years and we still don't like it.

    ** runs and hides **
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,651
    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Yes, seconded. Get that on the Red Button and I'd watch.

    But look, "Woke" is yet again being mistreated here. This poor wretch of a word has been dragged so far from its core definition (see below) as to become almost valueless. It's become a linguistic piece of junk.

    "To be not in denial that white supremacy racism and the patriarchy have played - and continue to play - a key and malign role in forging the world we live in."

    The PB.com blogging community are an educated bunch, skilled in language, and so I think we should be able to distinguish ourselves from the herd and use this word properly.
    So what is “the patriarchy” and why do they continue to play a malign role in society?
    Other than in Michael Douglas films it's an 'It' rather than a 'They'.

    I'd describe the Patriarchy as a state of affairs where power is wielded mainly by men, and where the power that women do have is derived mainly through men, or by courtesy of men.

    Why is this malign? Because it shortchanges half the population.

    Why is it still around today? Because those who benefit from it are disproportionately powerful.

    Why are they disproportionately powerful? ... Because they are men. Boom Boom.
    So effectively being woke resolves to “must overthrow the people in power”?
    It's a case of First World Problems.
    Or "Worse things happen at sea" etc.

    Such phrases are used routinely to downplay issues that the person using it either is not interested in or feels unimportant.

    Eg, me and the "outrage" of restrictions on liberty during a pandemic.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    The Olympics needs a dramatic new sport

    I reckon it is time to reintroduce pok-ta-pok: the Mesomaerican ball game (of the Maya, Aztecs, etc)

    It is simple but quite compelling. Two teams of maybe four players each compete on a hard stone ball-court, not unlike a real tennis court. With bats, arms and hips they propel a large, firm rubber ball at each other and also at a stone hoop placed high to the side. Victory is achieved via points, or by slotting the ball through the hoop.

    it's not a game for the faint hearted, however. For example, the ball is genuinely hard, and can cause severe bruising, internal injuries - even death in extreme cases. Also, at the end of the game the entire losing team is ritually sacrificed by decapitation, and after that they also sacrifice and dismember the entire winning team. And then the next teams play, for a while, with the severed heads and hands.

    So it might not be quite in tune with the Woke agenda in British Olympics, but on the other hand the inquest into TeamGB's performance would be rendered largely pointless, thus saving money?

    Yes, seconded. Get that on the Red Button and I'd watch.

    But look, "Woke" is yet again being mistreated here. This poor wretch of a word has been dragged so far from its core definition (see below) as to become almost valueless. It's become a linguistic piece of junk.

    "To be not in denial that white supremacy racism and the patriarchy have played - and continue to play - a key and malign role in forging the world we live in."

    The PB.com blogging community are an educated bunch, skilled in language, and so I think we should be able to distinguish ourselves from the herd and use this word properly.
    So what is “the patriarchy” and why do they continue to play a malign role in society?
    Other than in Michael Douglas films it's an 'It' rather than a 'They'.

    I'd describe the Patriarchy as a state of affairs where power is wielded mainly by men, and where the power that women do have is derived mainly through men, or by courtesy of men.

    Why is this malign? Because it shortchanges half the population.

    Why is it still around today? Because those who benefit from it are disproportionately powerful.

    Why are they disproportionately powerful? ... Because they are men. Boom Boom.
    So effectively being woke resolves to “must overthrow the people in power”?
    No. But it would be nice if men stopped telling women what they are, how they should behave and how they should describe themselves. They've been doing it for thousands of years and we still don't like it.

    ** runs and hides **
    Surely, it will work if Men just SHOUT LOUDER?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,866
    Chart's gone negative. Negative is good


  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,079
    MaxPB said:

    Bloody hell Boris is having another kid, how many is that? 8?

    That we know of...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,295
    Can I just say - on the question of nightclubs - that I loved going to the Hacienda. Knew Tony Wilson. The Smiths, the Buzzcocks, Joy Division. Those were the days.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,815
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
    Point of order. The Fuehrer did not design the KdF-wagen. He was the facilitator, commissioner, etc. Herr Dr Porsche led the design team. Producer and director, if you like.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,079
    Alistair said:

    Chart's gone negative. Negative is good

    give it another few weeks following the start of the SPL, PL and EFL.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,651

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
    Aren't they just saying that along with the bad stuff the Aztecs made some important and positive contributions to the development of human civilization?

    In which case - if I'm right to assume they are saying that, and they are right, or at least arguably right, to say it - it's not really like calling Hitler a valuable early car designer.
    It is interesting to view the err... continuity of certain economic policies that the Fascists espoused. Which is not entirely surprising really, since the economic advisers the Fascists used didn't retire to monasteries in 1945. Where they ended up is both interesting and surprising. Or not, really.

    Should we then say that Hitler and Mussolini were valuable economic thinkers? If not, why not?
    Can we de-enigmatize please, Malmsers old bean. Lift the shroud as it were.

    What significant macro-economic policy innovations did Hitler introduce that we still gain value from today?

    You tell me what they are and then we can assess whether he deserves a title of "valuable economic thinker".
    You need an economist for much of it. But some of the modern games that central banks play with the economy relate to Schacht's innovations. Given that the Nazi's tore up the old rule books and wanted the "new", it is not surprising that that is what they got.

    On the industrial side the recent Biden/Intel strategic on shoring is exactly the kind of thing that the er... Corporatists wanted.
    So what's your conclusion from this? - that Hitler WAS a valuable economic thinker? Or at least that a case can be made?

    It's not an opinion I've come across but that doesn't by itself mean it's crazy.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,725
    MaxPB said:

    Bloody hell Boris is having another kid, how many is that? 8?

    Congratulations to Mrs and Mrs Johnson. Also, very sadly reporting a miscarriage earlier in the year.

    In addition to his timeless comedic genius it would appear he is something of a stud too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,651

    MaxPB said:

    Bloody hell Boris is having another kid, how many is that? 8?

    Congratulations to Mrs and Mrs Johnson. Also, very sadly reporting a miscarriage earlier in the year.

    In addition to his timeless comedic genius it would appear he is something of a stud too.
    He's closing in on Mick Philpott.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,097
    spudgfsh said:

    MaxPB said:

    Bloody hell Boris is having another kid, how many is that? 8?

    That we know of...
    That he knows of......
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,911

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    Greens will not be +7 in these seats in an actual GE when the government is being decided me thinks.

    The Corbynites retreat, I reckon they will do well
    The difficulty the Greens have is that there were only five seats where they were in double digits in 2019. They therefore struggle with the whole "we can win here" component that is so important in FPTP - how do you convince people that you're not a wasted vote?

    The LibDems achieved that by building local strength - using council elections as a springboard to Westminster success. Can the Greens do similar? Or will their votes end up being spent tactically?
    I think the Corbynite types vote with heart not head. The hate Sir Keir as much as Boris, so what does it matter?
    The Corbynite types tempted by the Greens hate the Tories much, much more than they hate Labour. It's not just about the leaders. So when push comes to shove in some seats they'll hold their nose and vote Labour: not for Starmer but against Tories. Just as quite a few Tories aren't keen on Boris but still vote Tory.
    That's right. Corbynites might well vote Green in safe seats, but can recognise a marginal when they see one, and they're much more anti-Tory ("evil") than anti-Starmer ("uninspiring"). Also, being restless against a Labour government is more fun.

    Cf. B&S, where the socialist green candidate made a serious effort, and didn't get very far.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,907
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A final story about the Aztecs before I go to the gym


    At the height of their imperial might the Aztecs conquered a nearby kingdom and captured the rival king's daughter, ie the princess.

    As they were so triumphant the Aztecs decided to be magnanimous, and they invited the defeated king to a feast in Tenochtitlan, where he could be reunited with his kidnapped daughter

    When the defeated king sat down he finally saw his daughter again, or, rather, he saw an Aztec priest capering about while wearing, as a suit, the carefully flayed skin of his ritually slaughtered child

    The king was understandably anguished and outraged and left immediately.

    My favourite bit is this: the Aztecs were mystified by the king's reaction. To them, being killed and flayed and having your skin worn by an Aztec priest was an honour. They thought the girl's Dad would be HAPPY

    You sure this isn't a chapter you've just read in Game of Thrones?
    Amazingly no. That’s what I ‘love’ about Mesoamerican cultures. The most insane stories are generally true

    Historians get the same surprises. Eg For a long time the mad acts depicted, notoriously, on Moche pottery, were regarded as fantasies in ceramics

    Here’s a couple of photos I took of some of the tamer Moche pots in the wonderful Larco museum in Lima. They used to hide these from the public as being too upsetting





    It puts our own arguments about the cruel use of the wrong pronouns in a new perspective
    That's a bizarre use of the cruel adverb and an even more bizarre argument.

    Just because heathen ancestors committed cruel and gross acts doesn't mean they can be used to deprecate contemporary sensibilities.
    What I love is the Guardian critic's view is this a philosphical viewpoint that is valuable.
    Yes, calling the Aztecs ‘valuable early thinkers’ is like calling Hitler a ‘valuable early car designer’
    Aren't they just saying that along with the bad stuff the Aztecs made some important and positive contributions to the development of human civilization?

    In which case - if I'm right to assume they are saying that, and they are right, or at least arguably right, to say it - it's not really like calling Hitler a valuable early car designer.
    They didn't get the chance because their culture was obliterated. We don't know what they thought about anything, except placating the sun god.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,150
    spudgfsh said:

    Alistair said:

    Chart's gone negative. Negative is good

    give it another few weeks following the start of the SPL, PL and EFL.
    I think some people misrepresent the football spike. It’s was not likely caused by tens of thousands in a football stadium. It was the millions in homes and pubs. “Normal” football will never have the same impact.

    That’s of course not to say there won’t be case growth as it gets colder and wetter (if the latter were possible). But not because of football.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 5,137
    Looking like the dramatic drop in positives of the last week or two is already running out of steam in the south west.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,079
    alex_ said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Alistair said:

    Chart's gone negative. Negative is good

    give it another few weeks following the start of the SPL, PL and EFL.
    I think some people misrepresent the football spike. It’s was not likely caused by tens of thousands in a football stadium. It was the millions in homes and pubs. “Normal” football will never have the same impact.

    That’s of course not to say there won’t be case growth as it gets colder and wetter (if the latter were possible). But not because of football.
    If there is another spike caused by league football it'll be because of fans in pubs (either before/after or watching on sky).
This discussion has been closed.