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It is madness that someone who is not even an MP should be favourite for next LAB leader – political

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  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Asked how a number of politicians would have fared if they were in charge, the rating was -6 for Tony Blair, -12 for Mr Cameron, -14 for Theresa May, -7 for Sir Keir Starmer and -27 for Jeremy Corbyn. Only Rishi Sunak, with a rating of +5 is seen as likely to have performed better than the Prime Minister.

    Seems fair.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    Asked how a number of politicians would have fared if they were in charge, the rating was -6 for Tony Blair, -12 for Mr Cameron, -14 for Theresa May, -7 for Sir Keir Starmer and -27 for Jeremy Corbyn. Only Rishi Sunak, with a rating of +5 is seen as likely to have performed better than the Prime Minister.

    What was the rating for Johnson?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2021
    The i story is based on this....

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1418616938423627780?s=19

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1418617509096394753?s=19

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1418617975557574656?s=19.

    The problem for options other than Boris, the public don't think anybody would have been doing any better...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Andy_JS said:

    Asked how a number of politicians would have fared if they were in charge, the rating was -6 for Tony Blair, -12 for Mr Cameron, -14 for Theresa May, -7 for Sir Keir Starmer and -27 for Jeremy Corbyn. Only Rishi Sunak, with a rating of +5 is seen as likely to have performed better than the Prime Minister.

    What was the rating for Johnson?
    I guess 0, since it's a rating on whether they would do better or worse than him.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    Well I quite liked the Olympic opening ceremony. Stylish and not flamboyant. The drone-globe was spectacular in a subdued kind of way. Altogether well done to the Japanese.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we want to trade with any trading block whether it be sovereign state or supranational we have to follow the rules of that area. Jaguar have to build cars to American spec to sell them in America. The UK will have to supply products to EEA spec to sell them in the EEA. Why should we expect the other side to change or drop their rules because we say so? Does anyone do that?

    Now if you apply that logic to the UK, you will see how silly it is to expect us to align with the EU just because they say so.
    Silly, we are aligned because WE say so. The EEA rules are our rules!
    No they're not. We've banned foie gras. That's at least one difference, where we now have higher standards and are looking at enforcing that with an import ban soon that wouldn't be possible in the EEA.

    Where the two sets of rules are the same, why can't reciprocity be recognised?
    Hang on: if we're banning the import of a product because it was not manufactured according to our standards, we're attempting to export our manufacturing rules to the world.

    That is literally the very opposite of what Brexit is supposed be about.

    One of the things that we both complain about is the EU attempting to export its standards. This is us saying "if you don't make something a certain way, we won't allow our people to buy it". If the EU turns around and says, "oh, you can't export cars to the EU unless your labour standards meet ours", that would be EXACTLY the same.
    Penny drops.
    Not really. By definition foie gras can't be produced to any standard that would be acceptable.
    By definition Tory attacks on labour standards are unacceptable. You can’t pick and choose.
    You've lost me there.
    Irrelevant.

    England says to ma to. EU says to mae toe. You’re both right and you’re both wrong.

    This is where trade is headed: blatant childishness.
    Banning foie gras is childishness? Can I say it's a view?
    Yes, that’s a valid point of view. The French have a different point of view. And France has 26 pals; England has none.
    I suspect the only reason it isn't banned in the EU is the French, rather than due to the support of their "pals".
    Very clearly put!
    France, a member state, has power.
    England, a third country, has none.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we want to trade with any trading block whether it be sovereign state or supranational we have to follow the rules of that area. Jaguar have to build cars to American spec to sell them in America. The UK will have to supply products to EEA spec to sell them in the EEA. Why should we expect the other side to change or drop their rules because we say so? Does anyone do that?

    Now if you apply that logic to the UK, you will see how silly it is to expect us to align with the EU just because they say so.
    Silly, we are aligned because WE say so. The EEA rules are our rules!
    No they're not. We've banned foie gras. That's at least one difference, where we now have higher standards and are looking at enforcing that with an import ban soon that wouldn't be possible in the EEA.

    Where the two sets of rules are the same, why can't reciprocity be recognised?
    Hang on: if we're banning the import of a product because it was not manufactured according to our standards, we're attempting to export our manufacturing rules to the world.

    That is literally the very opposite of what Brexit is supposed be about.

    One of the things that we both complain about is the EU attempting to export its standards. This is us saying "if you don't make something a certain way, we won't allow our people to buy it". If the EU turns around and says, "oh, you can't export cars to the EU unless your labour standards meet ours", that would be EXACTLY the same.
    Penny drops.
    Not really. By definition foie gras can't be produced to any standard that would be acceptable.
    By definition Tory attacks on labour standards are unacceptable. You can’t pick and choose.
    You've lost me there.
    Irrelevant.

    England says to ma to. EU says to mae toe. You’re both right and you’re both wrong.

    This is where trade is headed: blatant childishness.
    Banning foie gras is childishness? Can I say it's a view?
    Yes, that’s a valid point of view. The French have a different point of view. And France has 26 pals; England has none.
    I suspect the only reason it isn't banned in the EU is the French, rather than due to the support of their "pals".
    Very clearly put!
    France, a member state, has power.
    England, a third country, has none.
    Except for the power to ban foie gras, which is the entire point.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    geoffw said:

    Well I quite liked the Olympic opening ceremony. Stylish and not flamboyant. The drone-globe was spectacular in a subdued kind of way. Altogether well done to the Japanese.

    I thought it was underwhelming but given the circumstances what could they do? I feel very sorry for Japan.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842
    At my Mam's for the first time in 18 months.
    Train down a nightmare though. Packed to standing room. Few masks. Many drunks singing at 2 in the afternoon. No ventilation. Indeed no windows could be opened. Aircon switched off "to prevent Covid"!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    Asked how a number of politicians would have fared if they were in charge, the rating was -6 for Tony Blair, -12 for Mr Cameron, -14 for Theresa May, -7 for Sir Keir Starmer and -27 for Jeremy Corbyn. Only Rishi Sunak, with a rating of +5 is seen as likely to have performed better than the Prime Minister.

    Seems fair.
    I find it completely astonishing. With the exception of Corbyn, any of those listed would have done miles better than Johnson imo, and I'm not convinced that Corbyn wouldn't have been better either.

    Do we have a link to the poll?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    stodge said:

    Could be many possible explanations.

    Three weeks ago the vaccination rate was under 80% so given the 3 week lag for vaccines to work that's a fifth of the population unvaccinated effectively.

    Plus does the data include tourists or other visitors? I believe Malta has a high transient population working on bases etc - if they count in the vaccine or case numerator but not the denominator then that can play havoc with percentages. No idea if this is true or not, just guessing.

    It's yet another example of the weaponising of statistics, numbers, graphics and the like.

    Information is not presented objectively by anyone, anywhere, any more - it's laid out or presented or reported to make a point, emphasise a message, confirm an argument or viewpoint.

    I know it didn't start with the pandemic but it's been one of the unfortunate by-products.

    The interpretation of statistics and micro-analysis of data has descended into near-lunacy.

    If a poll has the Conservatives down a point and Labour up a point, it's a crisis for Johnson.

    Er, no, it's called margin of error.

    If a poll has the Conservatives up a point and Labour down a point, it's a crisis for Starmer.

    Er, no, it's called margin of error.
    Yes, I’ve noticed this phenomenon. Every time Yes is over 50% it is heralded as a complete disaster for supporters of Scottish independence.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Asked how a number of politicians would have fared if they were in charge, the rating was -6 for Tony Blair, -12 for Mr Cameron, -14 for Theresa May, -7 for Sir Keir Starmer and -27 for Jeremy Corbyn. Only Rishi Sunak, with a rating of +5 is seen as likely to have performed better than the Prime Minister.

    Seems fair.
    I find it completely astonishing. With the exception of Corbyn, any of those listed would have done miles better than Johnson imo, and I'm not convinced that Corbyn wouldn't have been better either.

    Do we have a link to the poll?
    I think they would have all done worse than Johnson IMHO.

    None of them would have had Johnson's vaccine success IMHO and that's the most important thing of the pandemic.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928

    geoffw said:

    Well I quite liked the Olympic opening ceremony. Stylish and not flamboyant. The drone-globe was spectacular in a subdued kind of way. Altogether well done to the Japanese.

    I thought it was underwhelming but given the circumstances what could they do? I feel very sorry for Japan.
    My favourite bit was the performers trying to act out each of the 50 "pictograms" for the Olympic sports - for one of them they *almost* got mixed up :lol:
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we want to trade with any trading block whether it be sovereign state or supranational we have to follow the rules of that area. Jaguar have to build cars to American spec to sell them in America. The UK will have to supply products to EEA spec to sell them in the EEA. Why should we expect the other side to change or drop their rules because we say so? Does anyone do that?

    Now if you apply that logic to the UK, you will see how silly it is to expect us to align with the EU just because they say so.
    Silly, we are aligned because WE say so. The EEA rules are our rules!
    No they're not. We've banned foie gras. That's at least one difference, where we now have higher standards and are looking at enforcing that with an import ban soon that wouldn't be possible in the EEA.

    Where the two sets of rules are the same, why can't reciprocity be recognised?
    Hang on: if we're banning the import of a product because it was not manufactured according to our standards, we're attempting to export our manufacturing rules to the world.

    That is literally the very opposite of what Brexit is supposed be about.

    One of the things that we both complain about is the EU attempting to export its standards. This is us saying "if you don't make something a certain way, we won't allow our people to buy it". If the EU turns around and says, "oh, you can't export cars to the EU unless your labour standards meet ours", that would be EXACTLY the same.
    Penny drops.
    Not really. By definition foie gras can't be produced to any standard that would be acceptable.
    By definition Tory attacks on labour standards are unacceptable. You can’t pick and choose.
    You've lost me there.
    Irrelevant.

    England says to ma to. EU says to mae toe. You’re both right and you’re both wrong.

    This is where trade is headed: blatant childishness.
    Banning foie gras is childishness? Can I say it's a view?
    Yes, that’s a valid point of view. The French have a different point of view. And France has 26 pals; England has none.
    I suspect the only reason it isn't banned in the EU is the French, rather than due to the support of their "pals".
    Very clearly put!
    France, a member state, has power.
    England, a third country, has none.
    Except for the power to ban foie gras, which is the entire point.
    Fine. Go ahead. But don’t complain when the EU bans some of your exports.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2021
    I think Blair and Cameron would have done better. I don't think either would have shut the border completely, but i think would have been a load better versed in the latest data / science and acted accordingly and neither would have been against a vaccine task force / vaccine tsar.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,785
    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Asked how a number of politicians would have fared if they were in charge, the rating was -6 for Tony Blair, -12 for Mr Cameron, -14 for Theresa May, -7 for Sir Keir Starmer and -27 for Jeremy Corbyn. Only Rishi Sunak, with a rating of +5 is seen as likely to have performed better than the Prime Minister.

    What was the rating for Johnson?
    I guess 0, since it's a rating on whether they would do better or worse than him.
    Interesting. Given that 2 leaders have had better pandemics overall than Johnson, namely Drakeford and the very steady handling by Sturgeon, Johnson being better than nearly everyone else is a pretty odd claim. A few weeks head start on baccination trump's a whole pandemic off vacillation.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we want to trade with any trading block whether it be sovereign state or supranational we have to follow the rules of that area. Jaguar have to build cars to American spec to sell them in America. The UK will have to supply products to EEA spec to sell them in the EEA. Why should we expect the other side to change or drop their rules because we say so? Does anyone do that?

    Now if you apply that logic to the UK, you will see how silly it is to expect us to align with the EU just because they say so.
    Silly, we are aligned because WE say so. The EEA rules are our rules!
    No they're not. We've banned foie gras. That's at least one difference, where we now have higher standards and are looking at enforcing that with an import ban soon that wouldn't be possible in the EEA.

    Where the two sets of rules are the same, why can't reciprocity be recognised?
    Hang on: if we're banning the import of a product because it was not manufactured according to our standards, we're attempting to export our manufacturing rules to the world.

    That is literally the very opposite of what Brexit is supposed be about.

    One of the things that we both complain about is the EU attempting to export its standards. This is us saying "if you don't make something a certain way, we won't allow our people to buy it". If the EU turns around and says, "oh, you can't export cars to the EU unless your labour standards meet ours", that would be EXACTLY the same.
    Penny drops.
    Not really. By definition foie gras can't be produced to any standard that would be acceptable.
    By definition Tory attacks on labour standards are unacceptable. You can’t pick and choose.
    You've lost me there.
    Irrelevant.

    England says to ma to. EU says to mae toe. You’re both right and you’re both wrong.

    This is where trade is headed: blatant childishness.
    Banning foie gras is childishness? Can I say it's a view?
    Yes, that’s a valid point of view. The French have a different point of view. And France has 26 pals; England has none.
    I suspect the only reason it isn't banned in the EU is the French, rather than due to the support of their "pals".
    Very clearly put!
    France, a member state, has power.
    England, a third country, has none.
    Except for the power to ban foie gras, which is the entire point.
    Fine. Go ahead. But don’t complain when the EU bans some of your exports.
    Why would I complain? That's their prerogative. Quite why you think they'd go so far as to die on that particular hill is beyond me, given the methods involved in making the stuff.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    geoffw said:

    Well I quite liked the Olympic opening ceremony. Stylish and not flamboyant. The drone-globe was spectacular in a subdued kind of way. Altogether well done to the Japanese.

    I thought it was underwhelming but given the circumstances what could they do? I feel very sorry for Japan.
    My favourite bit was the performers trying to act out each of the 50 "pictograms" for the Olympic sports - for one of them they *almost* got mixed up :lol:
    That was clever tbf. But I'd have like them to highlighted Japanese history and culture a bit more.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we want to trade with any trading block whether it be sovereign state or supranational we have to follow the rules of that area. Jaguar have to build cars to American spec to sell them in America. The UK will have to supply products to EEA spec to sell them in the EEA. Why should we expect the other side to change or drop their rules because we say so? Does anyone do that?

    Now if you apply that logic to the UK, you will see how silly it is to expect us to align with the EU just because they say so.
    Silly, we are aligned because WE say so. The EEA rules are our rules!
    No they're not. We've banned foie gras. That's at least one difference, where we now have higher standards and are looking at enforcing that with an import ban soon that wouldn't be possible in the EEA.

    Where the two sets of rules are the same, why can't reciprocity be recognised?
    Hang on: if we're banning the import of a product because it was not manufactured according to our standards, we're attempting to export our manufacturing rules to the world.

    That is literally the very opposite of what Brexit is supposed be about.

    One of the things that we both complain about is the EU attempting to export its standards. This is us saying "if you don't make something a certain way, we won't allow our people to buy it". If the EU turns around and says, "oh, you can't export cars to the EU unless your labour standards meet ours", that would be EXACTLY the same.
    Penny drops.
    Not really. By definition foie gras can't be produced to any standard that would be acceptable.
    By definition Tory attacks on labour standards are unacceptable. You can’t pick and choose.
    You've lost me there.
    Irrelevant.

    England says to ma to. EU says to mae toe. You’re both right and you’re both wrong.

    This is where trade is headed: blatant childishness.
    Banning foie gras is childishness? Can I say it's a view?
    Yes, that’s a valid point of view. The French have a different point of view. And France has 26 pals; England has none.
    I suspect the only reason it isn't banned in the EU is the French, rather than due to the support of their "pals".
    Very clearly put!
    France, a member state, has power.
    England, a third country, has none.
    Except for the power to ban foie gras, which is the entire point.
    Fine. Go ahead. But don’t complain when the EU bans some of your exports.
    Why would I complain? That's their prerogative. Quite why you think they'd go so far as to die on that particular hill is beyond me, given the methods involved in making the stuff.
    You misunderstand. This has got nothing to do with one meat paste product. As soon as folk start a trade war, it has a worrying tendency to escalate in ways profoundly unfavourable to the twats who started it. Don’t say you weren’t warned.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we want to trade with any trading block whether it be sovereign state or supranational we have to follow the rules of that area. Jaguar have to build cars to American spec to sell them in America. The UK will have to supply products to EEA spec to sell them in the EEA. Why should we expect the other side to change or drop their rules because we say so? Does anyone do that?

    Now if you apply that logic to the UK, you will see how silly it is to expect us to align with the EU just because they say so.
    Silly, we are aligned because WE say so. The EEA rules are our rules!
    No they're not. We've banned foie gras. That's at least one difference, where we now have higher standards and are looking at enforcing that with an import ban soon that wouldn't be possible in the EEA.

    Where the two sets of rules are the same, why can't reciprocity be recognised?
    Hang on: if we're banning the import of a product because it was not manufactured according to our standards, we're attempting to export our manufacturing rules to the world.

    That is literally the very opposite of what Brexit is supposed be about.

    One of the things that we both complain about is the EU attempting to export its standards. This is us saying "if you don't make something a certain way, we won't allow our people to buy it". If the EU turns around and says, "oh, you can't export cars to the EU unless your labour standards meet ours", that would be EXACTLY the same.
    Penny drops.
    Not really. By definition foie gras can't be produced to any standard that would be acceptable.
    By definition Tory attacks on labour standards are unacceptable. You can’t pick and choose.
    You've lost me there.
    Irrelevant.

    England says to ma to. EU says to mae toe. You’re both right and you’re both wrong.

    This is where trade is headed: blatant childishness.
    Banning foie gras is childishness? Can I say it's a view?
    Yes, that’s a valid point of view. The French have a different point of view. And France has 26 pals; England has none.
    I suspect the only reason it isn't banned in the EU is the French, rather than due to the support of their "pals".
    Very clearly put!
    France, a member state, has power.
    England, a third country, has none.
    Except for the power to ban foie gras, which is the entire point.
    Fine. Go ahead. But don’t complain when the EU bans some of your exports.
    Why would I complain? That's their prerogative. Quite why you think they'd go so far as to die on that particular hill is beyond me, given the methods involved in making the stuff.
    You misunderstand. This has got nothing to do with one meat paste product. As soon as folk start a trade war, it has a worrying tendency to escalate in ways profoundly unfavourable to the twats who started it. Don’t say you weren’t warned.
    The EU are going to start a trade war because they want to continue exporting foie gras. Aren't they supposed to be the good guys?

    In any case, they are also looking at banning the stuff themselves. So they'd look like complete idiots if they started a trade war over a product they were going to ban shortly afterwards.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    I think Blair and Cameron would have done better. I don't think either would have shut the border completely, but i think would have been a load better versed in the latest data / science and acted accordingly and neither would have been against a vaccine task force / vaccine tsar.


    Agreed.

    I also think May and Brown would have done better. Both would have absorbed the data and made the tough decisions promptly when required. (As would Blair and Cameron, and indeed any other PM of my living memory with the possible exception of 'Sunny' Jim Callaghan.)
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Asked how a number of politicians would have fared if they were in charge, the rating was -6 for Tony Blair, -12 for Mr Cameron, -14 for Theresa May, -7 for Sir Keir Starmer and -27 for Jeremy Corbyn. Only Rishi Sunak, with a rating of +5 is seen as likely to have performed better than the Prime Minister.

    Seems fair.
    I find it completely astonishing. With the exception of Corbyn, any of those listed would have done miles better than Johnson imo, and I'm not convinced that Corbyn wouldn't have been better either.

    Do we have a link to the poll?
    Corbyn won't even get vaccinated!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Paul Mainwood
    @PaulMainwood
    ·
    2h
    Have I got the consensus right?
    - Everyone thinks cases are flattening/falling.
    - No-one is quite certain what it is, but the absence of football is being cautiously mentioned a lot.
    - No-one thinks it's permanent.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Paul Mainwood
    @PaulMainwood
    ·
    2h
    Have I got the consensus right?
    - Everyone thinks cases are flattening/falling.
    - No-one is quite certain what it is, but the absence of football is being cautiously mentioned a lot.
    - No-one thinks it's permanent.

    The next bit of downward pressure is the school holidays.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we want to trade with any trading block whether it be sovereign state or supranational we have to follow the rules of that area. Jaguar have to build cars to American spec to sell them in America. The UK will have to supply products to EEA spec to sell them in the EEA. Why should we expect the other side to change or drop their rules because we say so? Does anyone do that?

    Now if you apply that logic to the UK, you will see how silly it is to expect us to align with the EU just because they say so.
    Silly, we are aligned because WE say so. The EEA rules are our rules!
    No they're not. We've banned foie gras. That's at least one difference, where we now have higher standards and are looking at enforcing that with an import ban soon that wouldn't be possible in the EEA.

    Where the two sets of rules are the same, why can't reciprocity be recognised?
    Hang on: if we're banning the import of a product because it was not manufactured according to our standards, we're attempting to export our manufacturing rules to the world.

    That is literally the very opposite of what Brexit is supposed be about.

    One of the things that we both complain about is the EU attempting to export its standards. This is us saying "if you don't make something a certain way, we won't allow our people to buy it". If the EU turns around and says, "oh, you can't export cars to the EU unless your labour standards meet ours", that would be EXACTLY the same.
    Penny drops.
    Not really. By definition foie gras can't be produced to any standard that would be acceptable.
    By definition Tory attacks on labour standards are unacceptable. You can’t pick and choose.
    You've lost me there.
    Irrelevant.

    England says to ma to. EU says to mae toe. You’re both right and you’re both wrong.

    This is where trade is headed: blatant childishness.
    Banning foie gras is childishness? Can I say it's a view?
    Yes, that’s a valid point of view. The French have a different point of view. And France has 26 pals; England has none.
    I suspect the only reason it isn't banned in the EU is the French, rather than due to the support of their "pals".
    Very clearly put!
    France, a member state, has power.
    England, a third country, has none.
    Except for the power to ban foie gras, which is the entire point.
    Fine. Go ahead. But don’t complain when the EU bans some of your exports.
    I won't. If they want to have higher standards on something and want to completely criminalise a product then they're welcome to do that. Just as we are.

    RCS is uncharacteristically wrong here. Us outlawing a product entirely is not a non-tariff barrier. An NTB is saying you can only sell it if you meet very tight requirements, which basically favours our producers over theirs. Since we don't have producers, since the product is illegal, that's not an NTB.

    The idea that sparkling wine in a region can be called Champagne while anything else is called sparkling wine is more of an NTB.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    edited July 2021

    Asked how a number of politicians would have fared if they were in charge, the rating was -6 for Tony Blair, -12 for Mr Cameron, -14 for Theresa May, -7 for Sir Keir Starmer and -27 for Jeremy Corbyn. Only Rishi Sunak, with a rating of +5 is seen as likely to have performed better than the Prime Minister.

    Seems fair.
    I find it completely astonishing. With the exception of Corbyn, any of those listed would have done miles better than Johnson imo, and I'm not convinced that Corbyn wouldn't have been better either.

    Do we have a link to the poll?
    I think they would have all done worse than Johnson IMHO.

    None of them would have had Johnson's vaccine success IMHO and that's the most important thing of the pandemic.
    I am not sure why not.

    Also, how much of a success has it been? Spain has pretty much caught us up now with vaccinations, and France, Germany and Italy are only a few weeks behind. By the autumn we will all be in the same place.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153
    dixiedean said:

    At my Mam's for the first time in 18 months.
    Train down a nightmare though. Packed to standing room. Few masks. Many drunks singing at 2 in the afternoon. No ventilation. Indeed no windows could be opened. Aircon switched off "to prevent Covid"!

    No masks anywhere at the moment. I was on a tram in Nottingham earlier and had to apply social distancing by 'pointing myself away from anyone'! Also I was on Regional Railways to Skegness yesterday and the mask concept appeared to be forgotten 😷.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    148 reported deaths in Florida 2day.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    Paul Mainwood
    @PaulMainwood
    ·
    2h
    Have I got the consensus right?
    - Everyone thinks cases are flattening/falling.
    - No-one is quite certain what it is, but the absence of football is being cautiously mentioned a lot.
    - No-one thinks it's permanent.

    The next bit of downward pressure is the school holidays.
    Plus herd immunity.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    I think Blair and Cameron would have done better. I don't think either would have shut the border completely, but i think would have been a load better versed in the latest data / science and acted accordingly and neither would have been against a vaccine task force / vaccine tsar.


    Agreed.

    I also think May and Brown would have done better. Both would have absorbed the data and made the tough decisions promptly when required. (As would Blair and Cameron, and indeed any other PM of my living memory with the possible exception of 'Sunny' Jim Callaghan.)
    I'll tell you who I don't think would have been any better. Keir Starmer.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Asked how a number of politicians would have fared if they were in charge, the rating was -6 for Tony Blair, -12 for Mr Cameron, -14 for Theresa May, -7 for Sir Keir Starmer and -27 for Jeremy Corbyn. Only Rishi Sunak, with a rating of +5 is seen as likely to have performed better than the Prime Minister.

    Seems fair.
    I find it completely astonishing. With the exception of Corbyn, any of those listed would have done miles better than Johnson imo, and I'm not convinced that Corbyn wouldn't have been better either.

    Do we have a link to the poll?
    I think they would have all done worse than Johnson IMHO.

    None of them would have had Johnson's vaccine success IMHO and that's the most important thing of the pandemic.
    I am not sure why not.
    Because it was not the cautious thing to do. Johnson went way OTT backing as many horses as possible, paying any price necessary. He threw caution to the wind.

    Which was completely the right thing to do, but it takes a special mindset to do that and not go with a "this is not how its done" mindset.

    The traditional way to act is to wait for the results and then invest more, which is what the EU did. The other PMs previously could have been much more traditional than Johnson is and in this way we benefited from Johnson's eccentricity and refusal to follow the norms.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    dixiedean said:

    At my Mam's for the first time in 18 months.
    Train down a nightmare though. Packed to standing room. Few masks. Many drunks singing at 2 in the afternoon. No ventilation. Indeed no windows could be opened. Aircon switched off "to prevent Covid"!

    Party night in Liverpool?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,601

    Burnham has the not Starmer bounce, he would be doing no better than Starmer is now

    As Ydoethur reminded us earlier Burnham has some horrific baggage in the form of the Staffs Hospital Trust scandal, which was entirely his doing.

    Starmer has some (DPP and Shadow Brexit sec) but less baggage by which Johnson can hang him.

    I find that an interesting aside in the hurry by the far left and the Conservatives to install Burnham as leader
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,157
    edited July 2021

    stodge said:

    Could be many possible explanations.

    Three weeks ago the vaccination rate was under 80% so given the 3 week lag for vaccines to work that's a fifth of the population unvaccinated effectively.

    Plus does the data include tourists or other visitors? I believe Malta has a high transient population working on bases etc - if they count in the vaccine or case numerator but not the denominator then that can play havoc with percentages. No idea if this is true or not, just guessing.

    It's yet another example of the weaponising of statistics, numbers, graphics and the like.

    Information is not presented objectively by anyone, anywhere, any more - it's laid out or presented or reported to make a point, emphasise a message, confirm an argument or viewpoint.

    I know it didn't start with the pandemic but it's been one of the unfortunate by-products.

    The interpretation of statistics and micro-analysis of data has descended into near-lunacy.

    If a poll has the Conservatives down a point and Labour up a point, it's a crisis for Johnson.

    Er, no, it's called margin of error.

    If a poll has the Conservatives up a point and Labour down a point, it's a crisis for Starmer.

    Er, no, it's called margin of error.
    Yes, I’ve noticed this phenomenon. Every time Yes is over 50% it is heralded as a complete disaster for supporters of Scottish independence.
    Or a fraud on the part of the polling company in question. (Which i hasten to add is not the case at all. I an not being ironic, even in the Scots mode.)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    dixiedean said:

    At my Mam's for the first time in 18 months.
    Train down a nightmare though. Packed to standing room. Few masks. Many drunks singing at 2 in the afternoon. No ventilation. Indeed no windows could be opened. Aircon switched off "to prevent Covid"!

    No masks anywhere at the moment. I was on a tram in Nottingham earlier and had to apply social distancing by 'pointing myself away from anyone'! Also I was on Regional Railways to Skegness yesterday and the mask concept appeared to be forgotten 😷.
    Everyone seems very cautious here in North Dorset, just about everyone wearing masks in shops and 50% wearing masks in the street.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    The Olympic cycling road race is in the middle of the night. I think breakfast viewers might catch the end. The top-ranked competitors present are:
    Wout van Aert, Belgium
    Marc Hirshi, Switzerland
    Kasper Asgreen, Denmark
    Greg van Avermaet, Belgium (defending champion)
    Jakob Fuglsang, Denmark
    Tadej Pogacar, Slovenia
    Primoz Roglic, Slovenia
    Michal Kwiatowski, Poland
    Alejandro Valverde, Spain
    Maximilian Schachmann, Germany

    The top-ranked Englishman, Pidcock, is absent; as are Alaphilippe, Van der Poel, Merlier etc etc etc.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,093
    Pro_Rata said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Asked how a number of politicians would have fared if they were in charge, the rating was -6 for Tony Blair, -12 for Mr Cameron, -14 for Theresa May, -7 for Sir Keir Starmer and -27 for Jeremy Corbyn. Only Rishi Sunak, with a rating of +5 is seen as likely to have performed better than the Prime Minister.

    What was the rating for Johnson?
    I guess 0, since it's a rating on whether they would do better or worse than him.
    Interesting. Given that 2 leaders have had better pandemics overall than Johnson, namely Drakeford and the very steady handling by Sturgeon, Johnson being better than nearly everyone else is a pretty odd claim. A few weeks head start on baccination trump's a whole pandemic off vacillation.
    There might be a significant point there.

    My understanding is that the memorable bit of many experiences is the last bit. It's one of the things teachers think about when structuring a lesson- put a recap at the end, so it sticks better. Similarly, the last spot in a TV and break commands a premium.

    For a while, it looked like our last collective memory of Covid would be the brilliant vaccine rollout, and the UK opening up while the rest of the world languished under restrictions. In which case, the vaccine bounce makes sense.


    But even if it goes well from here, it won't be like that. The pingdemic is a bit of a shambles, other Western countries are in a similar ballpark jabwise, and something funny is going on with the UK's "don't vaccinate teens" policy.

    How does that affect public perceptions of the government?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    alex_ said:

    148 reported deaths in Florida 2day.

    That's equivalent to 472 in the UK 😲

    But how can that be? @contrarian has been assuring us for months you don't need vaccines to eliminate Covid, you just need DeSantis.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    Burnham has the not Starmer bounce, he would be doing no better than Starmer is now

    As Ydoethur reminded us earlier Burnham has some horrific baggage in the form of the Staffs Hospital Trust scandal, which was entirely his doing.

    Starmer has some (DPP and Shadow Brexit sec) but less baggage by which Johnson can hang him.

    I find that an interesting aside in the hurry by the far left and the Conservatives to install Burnham as leader
    I cannot see the Staffs Hospital Trust scandal looming very large in many people's minds at any future GE.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    The Olympic cycling road race is in the middle of the night. I think breakfast viewers might catch the end. The top-ranked competitors present are:
    Wout van Aert, Belgium
    Marc Hirshi, Switzerland
    Kasper Asgreen, Denmark
    Greg van Avermaet, Belgium (defending champion)
    Jakob Fuglsang, Denmark
    Tadej Pogacar, Slovenia
    Primoz Roglic, Slovenia
    Michal Kwiatowski, Poland
    Alejandro Valverde, Spain
    Maximilian Schachmann, Germany

    The top-ranked Englishman, Pidcock, is absent; as are Alaphilippe, Van der Poel, Merlier etc etc etc.

    Are there any Brits in this?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The Olympic cycling road race is in the middle of the night. I think breakfast viewers might catch the end. The top-ranked competitors present are:
    Wout van Aert, Belgium
    Marc Hirshi, Switzerland
    Kasper Asgreen, Denmark
    Greg van Avermaet, Belgium (defending champion)
    Jakob Fuglsang, Denmark
    Tadej Pogacar, Slovenia
    Primoz Roglic, Slovenia
    Michal Kwiatowski, Poland
    Alejandro Valverde, Spain
    Maximilian Schachmann, Germany

    The top-ranked Englishman, Pidcock, is absent; as are Alaphilippe, Van der Poel, Merlier etc etc etc.

    Poor old Laura, what a shame.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    dixiedean said:

    At my Mam's for the first time in 18 months.
    Train down a nightmare though. Packed to standing room. Few masks. Many drunks singing at 2 in the afternoon. No ventilation. Indeed no windows could be opened. Aircon switched off "to prevent Covid"!

    No masks anywhere at the moment. I was on a tram in Nottingham earlier and had to apply social distancing by 'pointing myself away from anyone'! Also I was on Regional Railways to Skegness yesterday and the mask concept appeared to be forgotten 😷.
    Everyone seems very cautious here in North Dorset, just about everyone wearing masks in shops and 50% wearing masks in the street.
    Mask wearing in the street was never a thing here in the Garden of England. Maybe that’s why we got our own variant. Either way the Tickled Trout is back to normal. So long as that remains the case I can rest happy.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we want to trade with any trading block whether it be sovereign state or supranational we have to follow the rules of that area. Jaguar have to build cars to American spec to sell them in America. The UK will have to supply products to EEA spec to sell them in the EEA. Why should we expect the other side to change or drop their rules because we say so? Does anyone do that?

    Now if you apply that logic to the UK, you will see how silly it is to expect us to align with the EU just because they say so.
    Silly, we are aligned because WE say so. The EEA rules are our rules!
    No they're not. We've banned foie gras. That's at least one difference, where we now have higher standards and are looking at enforcing that with an import ban soon that wouldn't be possible in the EEA.

    Where the two sets of rules are the same, why can't reciprocity be recognised?
    Hang on: if we're banning the import of a product because it was not manufactured according to our standards, we're attempting to export our manufacturing rules to the world.

    That is literally the very opposite of what Brexit is supposed be about.

    One of the things that we both complain about is the EU attempting to export its standards. This is us saying "if you don't make something a certain way, we won't allow our people to buy it". If the EU turns around and says, "oh, you can't export cars to the EU unless your labour standards meet ours", that would be EXACTLY the same.
    Penny drops.
    Not really. By definition foie gras can't be produced to any standard that would be acceptable.
    By definition Tory attacks on labour standards are unacceptable. You can’t pick and choose.
    You've lost me there.
    Irrelevant.

    England says to ma to. EU says to mae toe. You’re both right and you’re both wrong.

    This is where trade is headed: blatant childishness.
    Banning foie gras is childishness? Can I say it's a view?
    Yes, that’s a valid point of view. The French have a different point of view. And France has 26 pals; England has none.
    I suspect the only reason it isn't banned in the EU is the French, rather than due to the support of their "pals".
    Very clearly put!
    France, a member state, has power.
    England, a third country, has none.
    Except for the power to ban foie gras, which is the entire point.
    Fine. Go ahead. But don’t complain when the EU bans some of your exports.
    Why would I complain? That's their prerogative. Quite why you think they'd go so far as to die on that particular hill is beyond me, given the methods involved in making the stuff.
    You misunderstand. This has got nothing to do with one meat paste product. As soon as folk start a trade war, it has a worrying tendency to escalate in ways profoundly unfavourable to the twats who started it. Don’t say you weren’t warned.
    The EU are going to start a trade war because they want to continue exporting foie gras. Aren't they supposed to be the good guys?

    In any case, they are also looking at banning the stuff themselves. So they'd look like complete idiots if they started a trade war over a product they were going to ban shortly afterwards.
    As I said, you say to ma to; they say to mae toe. You’re both right, and you’re both wrong.

    In trade wars there are no winners.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    alex_ said:

    148 reported deaths in Florida 2day.

    That's equivalent to 472 in the UK 😲

    But how can that be? @contrarian has been assuring us for months you don't need vaccines to eliminate Covid, you just need DeSantis.
    He’s a funny bloke.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Burnham has the not Starmer bounce, he would be doing no better than Starmer is now

    As Ydoethur reminded us earlier Burnham has some horrific baggage in the form of the Staffs Hospital Trust scandal, which was entirely his doing.

    Starmer has some (DPP and Shadow Brexit sec) but less baggage by which Johnson can hang him.

    I find that an interesting aside in the hurry by the far left and the Conservatives to install Burnham as leader
    Stafford had many villains, a succession of Labour SoS Health ignored what was going on, not just Burnham. It is unfair to single just him out.

    Worth noting that the Maternity scandals, in Morecombe Bay, Shropshire, Essex and Nottingham have dragged on for decades under ministers from both Labour and Conservative.

    It is why no SoS Health has become PM since the NHS started.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we want to trade with any trading block whether it be sovereign state or supranational we have to follow the rules of that area. Jaguar have to build cars to American spec to sell them in America. The UK will have to supply products to EEA spec to sell them in the EEA. Why should we expect the other side to change or drop their rules because we say so? Does anyone do that?

    Now if you apply that logic to the UK, you will see how silly it is to expect us to align with the EU just because they say so.
    Silly, we are aligned because WE say so. The EEA rules are our rules!
    No they're not. We've banned foie gras. That's at least one difference, where we now have higher standards and are looking at enforcing that with an import ban soon that wouldn't be possible in the EEA.

    Where the two sets of rules are the same, why can't reciprocity be recognised?
    Hang on: if we're banning the import of a product because it was not manufactured according to our standards, we're attempting to export our manufacturing rules to the world.

    That is literally the very opposite of what Brexit is supposed be about.

    One of the things that we both complain about is the EU attempting to export its standards. This is us saying "if you don't make something a certain way, we won't allow our people to buy it". If the EU turns around and says, "oh, you can't export cars to the EU unless your labour standards meet ours", that would be EXACTLY the same.
    Penny drops.
    Not really. By definition foie gras can't be produced to any standard that would be acceptable.
    By definition Tory attacks on labour standards are unacceptable. You can’t pick and choose.
    You've lost me there.
    Irrelevant.

    England says to ma to. EU says to mae toe. You’re both right and you’re both wrong.

    This is where trade is headed: blatant childishness.
    Banning foie gras is childishness? Can I say it's a view?
    Yes, that’s a valid point of view. The French have a different point of view. And France has 26 pals; England has none.
    I suspect the only reason it isn't banned in the EU is the French, rather than due to the support of their "pals".
    Very clearly put!
    France, a member state, has power.
    England, a third country, has none.
    Except for the power to ban foie gras, which is the entire point.
    Fine. Go ahead. But don’t complain when the EU bans some of your exports.
    Why would I complain? That's their prerogative. Quite why you think they'd go so far as to die on that particular hill is beyond me, given the methods involved in making the stuff.
    You misunderstand. This has got nothing to do with one meat paste product. As soon as folk start a trade war, it has a worrying tendency to escalate in ways profoundly unfavourable to the twats who started it. Don’t say you weren’t warned.
    The EU are going to start a trade war because they want to continue exporting foie gras. Aren't they supposed to be the good guys?

    In any case, they are also looking at banning the stuff themselves. So they'd look like complete idiots if they started a trade war over a product they were going to ban shortly afterwards.
    As I said, you say to ma to; they say to mae toe. You’re both right, and you’re both wrong.

    In trade wars there are no winners.
    And I'm saying they would be fools to do it over such a controversial product, one that they themselves are looking at banning.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    RobD said:

    Paul Mainwood
    @PaulMainwood
    ·
    2h
    Have I got the consensus right?
    - Everyone thinks cases are flattening/falling.
    - No-one is quite certain what it is, but the absence of football is being cautiously mentioned a lot.
    - No-one thinks it's permanent.

    The next bit of downward pressure is the school holidays.
    Plus herd immunity.
    They're all congratulating themselves that even when figures are going down, they're *really* going up.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    Paul Mainwood
    @PaulMainwood
    ·
    2h
    Have I got the consensus right?
    - Everyone thinks cases are flattening/falling.
    - No-one is quite certain what it is, but the absence of football is being cautiously mentioned a lot.
    - No-one thinks it's permanent.

    Um some of us think it might be...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:

    Everyone is getting COVID at the moment. But it does appear vaccines reduce the impact.

    "Everybody"....in the uk, ~40k cases a day of which only 15% of the cases are double jabbed.
    Out out this weekend


    Is that venue haunted by Jeremy Corbyn?
    The non live music room about 10x as packed as this
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we want to trade with any trading block whether it be sovereign state or supranational we have to follow the rules of that area. Jaguar have to build cars to American spec to sell them in America. The UK will have to supply products to EEA spec to sell them in the EEA. Why should we expect the other side to change or drop their rules because we say so? Does anyone do that?

    Now if you apply that logic to the UK, you will see how silly it is to expect us to align with the EU just because they say so.
    Silly, we are aligned because WE say so. The EEA rules are our rules!
    No they're not. We've banned foie gras. That's at least one difference, where we now have higher standards and are looking at enforcing that with an import ban soon that wouldn't be possible in the EEA.

    Where the two sets of rules are the same, why can't reciprocity be recognised?
    Hang on: if we're banning the import of a product because it was not manufactured according to our standards, we're attempting to export our manufacturing rules to the world.

    That is literally the very opposite of what Brexit is supposed be about.

    One of the things that we both complain about is the EU attempting to export its standards. This is us saying "if you don't make something a certain way, we won't allow our people to buy it". If the EU turns around and says, "oh, you can't export cars to the EU unless your labour standards meet ours", that would be EXACTLY the same.
    Penny drops.
    Not really. By definition foie gras can't be produced to any standard that would be acceptable.
    By definition Tory attacks on labour standards are unacceptable. You can’t pick and choose.
    You've lost me there.
    Irrelevant.

    England says to ma to. EU says to mae toe. You’re both right and you’re both wrong.

    This is where trade is headed: blatant childishness.
    Banning foie gras is childishness? Can I say it's a view?
    Yes, that’s a valid point of view. The French have a different point of view. And France has 26 pals; England has none.
    I suspect the only reason it isn't banned in the EU is the French, rather than due to the support of their "pals".
    Very clearly put!
    France, a member state, has power.
    England, a third country, has none.
    Except for the power to ban foie gras, which is the entire point.
    Fine. Go ahead. But don’t complain when the EU bans some of your exports.
    Why would I complain? That's their prerogative. Quite why you think they'd go so far as to die on that particular hill is beyond me, given the methods involved in making the stuff.
    You misunderstand. This has got nothing to do with one meat paste product. As soon as folk start a trade war, it has a worrying tendency to escalate in ways profoundly unfavourable to the twats who started it. Don’t say you weren’t warned.
    The EU are going to start a trade war because they want to continue exporting foie gras. Aren't they supposed to be the good guys?

    In any case, they are also looking at banning the stuff themselves. So they'd look like complete idiots if they started a trade war over a product they were going to ban shortly afterwards.
    As I said, you say to ma to; they say to mae toe. You’re both right, and you’re both wrong.

    In trade wars there are no winners.
    No, banning the torture of animals is right. 🤷‍♂️

    If they want to go for a trade war with that, presumably they'll drop their bans on hormone treated beef, chlorinated chicken etc which have no scientific basis? Or maybe not.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    DougSeal said:

    alex_ said:

    148 reported deaths in Florida 2day.

    That's equivalent to 472 in the UK 😲

    But how can that be? @contrarian has been assuring us for months you don't need vaccines to eliminate Covid, you just need DeSantis.
    He’s a funny bloke.
    Turns out he's an avid watcher of Fox "News".
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Burnham has the not Starmer bounce, he would be doing no better than Starmer is now

    As Ydoethur reminded us earlier Burnham has some horrific baggage in the form of the Staffs Hospital Trust scandal, which was entirely his doing.

    Starmer has some (DPP and Shadow Brexit sec) but less baggage by which Johnson can hang him.

    I find that an interesting aside in the hurry by the far left and the Conservatives to install Burnham as leader
    I cannot see the Staffs Hospital Trust scandal looming very large in many people's minds at any future GE.
    It has been rather overtaken by some of the startling death rates in carehomes and hospitals over the last year.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153

    dixiedean said:

    At my Mam's for the first time in 18 months.
    Train down a nightmare though. Packed to standing room. Few masks. Many drunks singing at 2 in the afternoon. No ventilation. Indeed no windows could be opened. Aircon switched off "to prevent Covid"!

    No masks anywhere at the moment. I was on a tram in Nottingham earlier and had to apply social distancing by 'pointing myself away from anyone'! Also I was on Regional Railways to Skegness yesterday and the mask concept appeared to be forgotten 😷.
    Everyone seems very cautious here in North Dorset, just about everyone wearing masks in shops and 50% wearing masks in the street.
    I was in the pub earlier. It was only me and my friend ordering beers in a mask. There were lots of under 50s in. I don't think they had all had two doses.

    Unlike the rest of the week Sunday to Thursday when it was basically just us in!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    I'm shocked you think this.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Foxy said:

    Burnham has the not Starmer bounce, he would be doing no better than Starmer is now

    As Ydoethur reminded us earlier Burnham has some horrific baggage in the form of the Staffs Hospital Trust scandal, which was entirely his doing.

    Starmer has some (DPP and Shadow Brexit sec) but less baggage by which Johnson can hang him.

    I find that an interesting aside in the hurry by the far left and the Conservatives to install Burnham as leader
    I cannot see the Staffs Hospital Trust scandal looming very large in many people's minds at any future GE.
    It has been rather overtaken by some of the startling death rates in carehomes and hospitals over the last year.
    Exactly. Sad and shocking though it was, it's history now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    dixiedean said:

    At my Mam's for the first time in 18 months.
    Train down a nightmare though. Packed to standing room. Few masks. Many drunks singing at 2 in the afternoon. No ventilation. Indeed no windows could be opened. Aircon switched off "to prevent Covid"!

    Crikey
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    The Olympic cycling road race is in the middle of the night. I think breakfast viewers might catch the end. The top-ranked competitors present are:
    Wout van Aert, Belgium
    Marc Hirshi, Switzerland
    Kasper Asgreen, Denmark
    Greg van Avermaet, Belgium (defending champion)
    Jakob Fuglsang, Denmark
    Tadej Pogacar, Slovenia
    Primoz Roglic, Slovenia
    Michal Kwiatowski, Poland
    Alejandro Valverde, Spain
    Maximilian Schachmann, Germany

    The top-ranked Englishman, Pidcock, is absent; as are Alaphilippe, Van der Poel, Merlier etc etc etc.

    Are there any Brits in this?
    Yes, but none ranked in the Top 50. (Tom Pidcock was the only one, ranked no. 20.)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    Paul Mainwood
    @PaulMainwood
    ·
    2h
    Have I got the consensus right?
    - Everyone thinks cases are flattening/falling.
    - No-one is quite certain what it is, but the absence of football is being cautiously mentioned a lot.
    - No-one thinks it's permanent.

    Um some of us think it might be...
    I know. That's why I posted it. :smile:
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited July 2021

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner. Also seemed to be basically saying that "ventilator = death". I mean, it's not great, but it's not guaranteed death within a week either.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    alex_ said:

    DougSeal said:

    alex_ said:

    148 reported deaths in Florida 2day.

    That's equivalent to 472 in the UK 😲

    But how can that be? @contrarian has been assuring us for months you don't need vaccines to eliminate Covid, you just need DeSantis.
    He’s a funny bloke.
    Turns out he's an avid watcher of Fox "News".
    Just for shits and giggles, when visiting my card carrying Democrat, NPR listening, uber Liberal in laws in Connecticut, about 12 years ago I pretended that I was really really excited to watch Fox News because I had heard so much about it. To their credit they humoured me.
  • RobD said:

    I'm shocked you think this.
    Rob, you can't seriously think this is any good right
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265



    No, banning the torture of animals is right. 🤷‍♂️

    If they want to go for a trade war with that, presumably they'll drop their bans on hormone treated beef, chlorinated chicken etc which have no scientific basis? Or maybe not.

    It's actually possible that they'll get there first. The European Parliament has passed a ban on foie gras as part of a larger package of welfare measures recommended by the Commission (the central one is ending cages for laying hens and sows, in response to our Citizens' Initiative (in my day job) with 1.4 million signatures. It has to be in the final package presented by 2023 and then pass by qualified majority vote (i.e. France can't block it). I suspect we'll get there before them, but we're happy to have a race!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    I'm shocked you think this.
    Rob, you can't seriously think this is any good right
    I don't know, I haven't watched it. I was merely questioning the usefulness of your review.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I'm shocked you think this.
    Rob, you can't seriously think this is any good right
    I don't know, I haven't watched it. I was merely questioning the usefulness of your review.
    Well you can feel free to ignore my comments, as I often do with yours
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Most not, or single dosed because of their age. Apart from health and social care workers, few twentysomethings are old enough to be double jabbed.

    Just trying to make the point that while the young are low risk, they are not zero risk.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153
    alex_ said:

    RobD said:

    Paul Mainwood
    @PaulMainwood
    ·
    2h
    Have I got the consensus right?
    - Everyone thinks cases are flattening/falling.
    - No-one is quite certain what it is, but the absence of football is being cautiously mentioned a lot.
    - No-one thinks it's permanent.

    The next bit of downward pressure is the school holidays.
    Plus herd immunity.
    They're all congratulating themselves that even when figures are going down, they're *really* going up.
    As I said on here previously it's not over yet.

    Everyone has got it. Delta is massively contagious. Hospitalisations and deaths are soaring. NHS is swamped.

    Best to be careful 👿
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Maffew said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    This looks excellent.

    Special visa for grads of the world’s best universities. Other visa loosening too.

    https://twitter.com/sam_dumitriu/status/1418559832949460997?s=21

    I think the UK will eventually agree a semi-free movement deal for under 35s from most EU countries on a bilateral basis. Similar to what we've just agreed with Australia. It suits all parties.
    Does not suit me and I suspect doesn't suit those youngsters who are finally getting off rock bottom minimum wages due to not having an essentially infinite labour pool to draw on to keep wages at the bottom. Hospitality workers for example
    That argument only works if you have significant unemployment, which was certainly not the case before covid.

    If you have virtually full employment, and then you send away most of those doing menial jobs, the net effect is that more indigenous people end up doing menial jobs instead of more fulfilling work, albeit for somewhat higher wages than those who they replace. And everything gets more expensive.
    For a lot of indigenous people especially the young menial work like stacking shelves and waiting tables is all they can get for a few years. If you can afford to go out for a meal you can afford to pay a little more. Maybe then the staff waiting on you can also afford to go out for a meal occasionally.

    If the pay rises high enough due to staff shortages people from abroad will be able to get visa's under the points system to come do it.
    For example my son, got a top class MsC from UCL in biochemistry....spent 3 years doing such menial jobs till he managed to find a non menial one, also know a friend of his that got a first in marine biology...still working in costa's after 8 years because he cant find a not hospitality job
    Marine Biology and Philosophy have always had the highest graduate unemployment rates.

    There's an interesting issue here, that's not related to Brexit. In the old days (say the mid-1990s), lots of big firms took in massive quantities of graduates and trained them up. Arthur Anderson or PWC would take in 1,000+ graduates each year, and places like Unilever would also take on very large numbers.

    These days, the number of graduate training jobs is well down. And that's because hiring graduates is usually an altruistic pursuit. A 22 year old with little experience of work is going to cost you more in training (even before salary) than he's going to produce.

    Firms, therefore, ended up wanting to employ people with a few years work experience under their belt. They wanted to make sure that people could turn up to work every day at 7am, that they'd know how to take instruction, etc. And yes, even a year at Costa Coffee was better than coming straight out of Manchester or UCL or the Sorbonne.

    When I left Goldman at the beginning of 2000, this meant the average (i.e. the mean) age of someone on the graduate training programme was 27! Now some of this was because Germans left university earlier, but mostly it was because they expected a couple of years of real world experience before you joined.

    And I think that's continued. Simply, we have a combination of many more graduates that in even 1995, combined with the fact that in today's economy, employers want someone with a bit more maturity.
    I've noticed a big change in trainee intakes at my (law) firm. When I started (roughly 10 years ago), a large majority of the trainees with a legal background were straight out of law school/gap years. Now most of the trainees I see coming in seem to have spent at least some time as a paralegal first. I think being forced into paralegalling before a training contract was almost an indicator that you were probably not quite up to it back then (I'm not saying it's correct, just what I felt a lot of people's perception was), while it's certainly not the case now.
    I have had the odd fresh faced graduate in computer science under my wing throughout my working life, I can certainly say there is a decline not necessarily in them but what they are taught. Last guy I had in fact under my wing wasnt even a gradutate he was on work experience from school. First day I looked over his work and called him over and went why is every method returning a string array? His reply was "Oh well all the ones we write at school do so". End of his placement his teacher came in and I took her through what he had written in his 6 weeks with us. She was oh we don't teach any of that till degree level. FFS we are writing in an object oriented language he is being taught in one as a procedural language where all return values have to be string arrays
    I'm surprised he didn't say:

    "Well Grandpa, the chances are that this is going to end up part of a web service, so anything else would be a bit 1997."
    We were writing webservice style stuff....doesnt mean it should only return string arrays. Json etc is a little bit better than that
    JSON is a string, so I was including that :smile:
    Yes technically but on the js side you dont need to treat it as a string
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    edited July 2021
    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner.
    Why?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited July 2021

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I'm shocked you think this.
    Rob, you can't seriously think this is any good right
    I don't know, I haven't watched it. I was merely questioning the usefulness of your review.
    Well you can feel free to ignore my comments, as I often do with yours
    I thought it was a reasonable point. Your position is very far from Farage's, so it is hardly surprising you don't like the show.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,093

    I think Blair and Cameron would have done better. I don't think either would have shut the border completely, but i think would have been a load better versed in the latest data / science and acted accordingly and neither would have been against a vaccine task force / vaccine tsar.


    Agreed.

    I also think May and Brown would have done better. Both would have absorbed the data and made the tough decisions promptly when required. (As would Blair and Cameron, and indeed any other PM of my living memory with the possible exception of 'Sunny' Jim Callaghan.)
    I hope this isn't too Captain Hindsight, but the simplest way to reduce deaths from something contagious is to stop transmission earlier.

    In exponential growth, each doubling contains about as many infections and deaths as the entire spike thus far.

    So you have a time machine and want to reduce England's death toll? Shut down a week earlier in March (which plenty of people were calling for, or doing if they could), and don't faff around between Christmas and New Year.

    Those two bits of indecision caused about half the deaths. The first may well be forgivable, but the second really wasn't, and likely cost more lives than the accelerated vaccine rollout saved.

    Physics wisdom- if you have a complex situation, the exponential growth always wins. Maybe I should have gone for a job as a Downing St adviser.

    Returning to the original point- even if other PMs might have got things wrong, it required a special type of foolishness to deliberately make the same huge mistake twice.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    alex_ said:

    148 reported deaths in Florida 2day.

    Oof. Noones going to die here, based on the age profile and demographics vax uptake will be 95+%
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner. Also seemed to be basically saying that "ventilator = death". I mean, it's not great, but it's not guaranteed death within a week either.
    Why?

    Why what?

    Why not impressed with bedside manner, or why not guaranteed death?

    I assume the former? Is the last thing you tell a patient before they are intubed that they have no hope and are going to die?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    I'm shocked you think this.
    Rob, you can't seriously think this is any good right
    Did you watch it in full to cast an impartial review?

    I haven't, I have no intention of watching him. So I'm not going to judge how good or bad it is, since I can't possibly do so without having seen it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner. Also seemed to be basically saying that "ventilator = death". I mean, it's not great, but it's not guaranteed death within a week either.
    Why?

    Why what?

    Why not impressed with bedside manner, or why not guaranteed death?

    I assume the former? Is the last thing you tell a patient before they are intubed that they have no hope and are going to die?
    Too late for what is the question? I think it is true to say that it is too late for a vaccine to have any positive effect at that point. They are going to get the antibodies from the current infection.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082



    No, banning the torture of animals is right. 🤷‍♂️

    If they want to go for a trade war with that, presumably they'll drop their bans on hormone treated beef, chlorinated chicken etc which have no scientific basis? Or maybe not.

    It's actually possible that they'll get there first. The European Parliament has passed a ban on foie gras as part of a larger package of welfare measures recommended by the Commission (the central one is ending cages for laying hens and sows, in response to our Citizens' Initiative (in my day job) with 1.4 million signatures. It has to be in the final package presented by 2023 and then pass by qualified majority vote (i.e. France can't block it). I suspect we'll get there before them, but we're happy to have a race!
    Keep up the good work Nick! CWF is one of my charities.

    Incidentally, as a writer on these things, I wonder what your thoughts are on the colonialist politics of boardgames? Interesting article from the Atlantic.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2021/07/board-games-have-colonialism-problem/619518/?utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,853
    edited July 2021

    The Olympic cycling road race is in the middle of the night. I think breakfast viewers might catch the end. The top-ranked competitors present are:
    Wout van Aert, Belgium
    Marc Hirshi, Switzerland
    Kasper Asgreen, Denmark
    Greg van Avermaet, Belgium (defending champion)
    Jakob Fuglsang, Denmark
    Tadej Pogacar, Slovenia
    Primoz Roglic, Slovenia
    Michal Kwiatowski, Poland
    Alejandro Valverde, Spain
    Maximilian Schachmann, Germany

    The top-ranked Englishman, Pidcock, is absent; as are Alaphilippe, Van der Poel, Merlier etc etc etc.

    Are there any Brits in this?
    Yes, but none ranked in the Top 50. (Tom Pidcock was the only one, ranked no. 20.)
    They do have winners of each Grand Tour though...

    The route might have suited the Yates brothers, if they were in form.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited July 2021
    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner. Also seemed to be basically saying that "ventilator = death". I mean, it's not great, but it's not guaranteed death within a week either.
    Why?

    Why what?

    Why not impressed with bedside manner, or why not guaranteed death?

    I assume the former? Is the last thing you tell a patient before they are intubed that they have no hope and are going to die?
    Too late for what is the question? I think it is true to say that it is too late for a vaccine to have any positive effect at that point. They are going to get the antibodies from the current infection.
    Well, if you read the full quote you could be forgiven for interpreting it as saying too late for anything.

    Incidentally, I'm sure it's the case - but what to make (and i know it's not the same thing) of the suggestions in some quarters that for some people symptoms of "long covid" have allegedly been relieved somewhat by receipt of the vaccine?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner. Also seemed to be basically saying that "ventilator = death". I mean, it's not great, but it's not guaranteed death within a week either.
    Why?

    Why what?

    Why not impressed with bedside manner, or why not guaranteed death?

    I assume the former? Is the last thing you tell a patient before they are intubed that they have no hope and are going to die?
    No, she is telling them it is too late to be vaccinated, which is an obvious truth. She wouldn't be incubating if there was no hope. In our unit about 60% of patients needing intubation survive.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    The exemption process for covid isolation for key industries seems a total f*cking clusterf*ck.

    What goes on in the heads of the people designing this stuff?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    alex_ said:

    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner. Also seemed to be basically saying that "ventilator = death". I mean, it's not great, but it's not guaranteed death within a week either.
    Why?

    Why what?

    Why not impressed with bedside manner, or why not guaranteed death?

    I assume the former? Is the last thing you tell a patient before they are intubed that they have no hope and are going to die?
    Too late for what is the question? I think it is true to say that it is too late for a vaccine to have any positive effect at that point. They are going to get the antibodies from the current infection.
    Well, if you read the full quote you could be forgiven for interpreting it as saying too late for anything.

    Incidentally, I'm sure it's the case - but what to make (and i know it's not the same thing) of the suggestions in some quarters that for some people symptoms of "long covid" have allegedly been relieved somewhat by receipt of the vaccine?
    This is the full quote:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,”

    If she had said it without them asking for the vaccine I would have agreed with you. But it was in reply to a request for the vaccine, so it's reasonable to assume she was saying it was too late for a vaccine, not that it was too late for them.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    This is nice to see


  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner. Also seemed to be basically saying that "ventilator = death". I mean, it's not great, but it's not guaranteed death within a week either.
    Why?

    Why what?

    Why not impressed with bedside manner, or why not guaranteed death?

    I assume the former? Is the last thing you tell a patient before they are intubed that they have no hope and are going to die?
    No, she is telling them it is too late to be vaccinated, which is an obvious truth. She wouldn't be incubating if there was no hope. In our unit about 60% of patients needing intubation survive.
    The full quote:

    ‘One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.

    ‘A few days later when I call time of death, I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honor their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same. They cry.


    Maybe in reality she's not quite so blunt, or offers other reassurance.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    DougSeal said:

    This is nice to see


    Portugal never really got going in the football, did they!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner. Also seemed to be basically saying that "ventilator = death". I mean, it's not great, but it's not guaranteed death within a week either.
    Why?

    Why what?

    Why not impressed with bedside manner, or why not guaranteed death?

    I assume the former? Is the last thing you tell a patient before they are intubed that they have no hope and are going to die?
    No, she is telling them it is too late to be vaccinated, which is an obvious truth. She wouldn't be incubating if there was no hope. In our unit about 60% of patients needing intubation survive.
    The full quote:

    ‘One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.

    ‘A few days later when I call time of death, I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honor their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same. They cry.


    Maybe in reality she's not quite so blunt, or offers other reassurance.
    False reassurance is not appropriate. People need to know the truth and have a right to it.

    The quotes come from a longer interview:

    https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    The Olympic cycling road race is in the middle of the night. I think breakfast viewers might catch the end. The top-ranked competitors present are:
    Wout van Aert, Belgium
    Marc Hirshi, Switzerland
    Kasper Asgreen, Denmark
    Greg van Avermaet, Belgium (defending champion)
    Jakob Fuglsang, Denmark
    Tadej Pogacar, Slovenia
    Primoz Roglic, Slovenia
    Michal Kwiatowski, Poland
    Alejandro Valverde, Spain
    Maximilian Schachmann, Germany

    The top-ranked Englishman, Pidcock, is absent; as are Alaphilippe, Van der Poel, Merlier etc etc etc.

    Are there any Brits in this?
    Yes, but none ranked in the Top 50. (Tom Pidcock was the only one, ranked no. 20.)
    They do have winners of each Grand Tour though...
    Indeed:
    Tao Geoghegan Hart of Scotland has won the Giro d’Italia (2020)
    Geraint Thomas of Wales has won the Tour de France (2018)
    Simon Yates of England has won the Vuelta a España (2018)

    (His brother Adam Yates has not won any grand tours)

    But this is not of course a three week stage race!

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    The exemption process for covid isolation for key industries seems a total f*cking clusterf*ck.

    What goes on in the heads of the people designing this stuff?

    Indeed. Would my diabetic patients really be happy with me treating them while my wife had covid, on the basis of daily LFT?

    Or the HCAs in a nursing home carrying on personal care while their children had Delta?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    On the subject to resistance to the vaccines: I have a young relative (early 20s) who has decided he doesn't want to have the vaccine because he's been fed some nonsense on social media about the vaccines causing Parkinson's disease, information which he says comes from a scientific paper.

    My question is: how best to combat this? I realise that shouting at him and telling not to be so stupid (my preferred option, TBH) might not be entirely optimal. Engage with the 'scientific paper' and try to refute it? Point out that the MHRA, FDA, EMA, WHO, and every other regulator around the world say that the vaccines are safe, recommend them, and that they know a hell of a lot more about this than some random guy on Facebook? Bribery? Blackmail? Point out he won't be able to travel without the jabs?

    It's a tricky one, because one is trying to counter the irrational with the rational.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner. Also seemed to be basically saying that "ventilator = death". I mean, it's not great, but it's not guaranteed death within a week either.
    Why?

    Why what?

    Why not impressed with bedside manner, or why not guaranteed death?

    I assume the former? Is the last thing you tell a patient before they are intubed that they have no hope and are going to die?
    No, she is telling them it is too late to be vaccinated, which is an obvious truth. She wouldn't be incubating if there was no hope. In our unit about 60% of patients needing intubation survive.
    The full quote:

    ‘One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.

    ‘A few days later when I call time of death, I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honor their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same. They cry.


    Maybe in reality she's not quite so blunt, or offers other reassurance.
    False reassurance is not appropriate. People need to know the truth and have a right to it.

    The quotes come from a longer interview:

    https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true
    I didn't say 'false' reassurance. But i think i would want to know that i have some hope. Which on your stats a patient is quite likely to have.

    OK i appreciate the interview is making a point about vaccines.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    bigben said:

    BigRich said:

    I am fully vaccinated and support and encourage anybody who can go get vaccinated.

    I say that as a starter because I have a sad, very sad story to tell, A few weeks ago ago a relative of mine died the day after he was vaccinated, he is the brother in law of my sister in law, but on the other side of her family, if that makes since. it was a Saturday and he was looing after the 5 year old daughter, as his wife was working, when he stated to feel unwell, he called his parents who live near and asked if they could come and help look after the lintel one, as he was feeling bad. when they got to the house they could see her but not her dad, so they brock the door and got in, to be tolled, 'daddy's asleep in the kitchen and he wont wake up' he was a really nice chap, I did not know him well, just met him at my brother stage do and a few other family events. He was 35 ish.

    I mention this because today, in the city where I work, a young ish lady had a bad reaction to the viruses I cant remember the name of the condition but her body continually shakes and she has to walk with crutches. all of the young people I work with seem to have it on there phones and seem to have all decided that they are not getting the jab and those who have had one jab are not getting the second.

    I thought I would try to talk about it rationally and shared the experience above and noted that I recognised there consenes but hear are some numbers and facts, ...... lots more people die form the virus than the vaccine and even while the risk of death to people your age is small you could still get long Covid, vaccines work, and this one has now been tested on billions of people around the would, far moor than in any laboratory test, and we know there is a risk from the virus and we also know its very very small.

    I completely failed to make an impact, I just got tolled to look again at the bloody video. maybe the thought of being permanently disabled is more freighting than death? or more likely a video is a powerful way of sharing a message.

    Very sorry to hear this @BigRich

    You're doing the right thing.
    saying lots more people die from the virus than the vaccine wont work with young people who are at little risk of dying from covid
    Not zero though. We have several on ventilators or ECMO under 30 years old. Half will make it through.
    How many were vaccinated (if its allowable for you to give info) ?

    And among those not vaccinated what's their reaction to vaccination now ?

    This I found interesting:

    “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
    Wasn't very impressed with that doctor's bedside manner. Also seemed to be basically saying that "ventilator = death". I mean, it's not great, but it's not guaranteed death within a week either.
    Why?

    Why what?

    Why not impressed with bedside manner, or why not guaranteed death?

    I assume the former? Is the last thing you tell a patient before they are intubed that they have no hope and are going to die?
    No, she is telling them it is too late to be vaccinated, which is an obvious truth. She wouldn't be incubating if there was no hope. In our unit about 60% of patients needing intubation survive.
    The full quote:

    ‘One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.

    ‘A few days later when I call time of death, I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honor their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same. They cry.


    Maybe in reality she's not quite so blunt, or offers other reassurance.
    False reassurance is not appropriate. People need to know the truth and have a right to it.

    The quotes come from a longer interview:

    https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true
    Alabama is in so much shit when delta gets going unfortunately.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Foxy said:

    The exemption process for covid isolation for key industries seems a total f*cking clusterf*ck.

    What goes on in the heads of the people designing this stuff?

    Indeed. Would my diabetic patients really be happy with me treating them while my wife had covid, on the basis of daily LFT?

    Or the HCAs in a nursing home carrying on personal care while their children had Delta?
    Perhaps. If you're fully vaccinated and have a negative LFT then I'm sure your patients would rather be treated by you, than not be treated at all.

    And that's going to be the rules from next month, isn't it?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    That Asda story will make national news. Expect the PM to comment tomorrow about it.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    On the subject to resistance to the vaccines: I have a young relative (early 20s) who has decided he doesn't want to have the vaccine because he's been fed some nonsense on social media about the vaccines causing Parkinson's disease, information which he says comes from a scientific paper.

    My question is: how best to combat this? I realise that shouting at him and telling not to be so stupid (my preferred option, TBH) might not be entirely optimal. Engage with the 'scientific paper' and try to refute it? Point out that the MHRA, FDA, EMA, WHO, and every other regulator around the world say that the vaccines are safe, recommend them, and that they know a hell of a lot more about this than some random guy on Facebook? Bribery? Blackmail? Point out he won't be able to travel without the jabs?

    It's a tricky one, because one is trying to counter the irrational with the rational.

    - “… one is trying to counter the irrational with the rational.”

    Welcome to the world of Scots on PB threads.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    On the subject to resistance to the vaccines: I have a young relative (early 20s) who has decided he doesn't want to have the vaccine because he's been fed some nonsense on social media about the vaccines causing Parkinson's disease, information which he says comes from a scientific paper.

    My question is: how best to combat this? I realise that shouting at him and telling not to be so stupid (my preferred option, TBH) might not be entirely optimal. Engage with the 'scientific paper' and try to refute it? Point out that the MHRA, FDA, EMA, WHO, and every other regulator around the world say that the vaccines are safe, recommend them, and that they know a hell of a lot more about this than some random guy on Facebook? Bribery? Blackmail? Point out he won't be able to travel without the jabs?

    It's a tricky one, because one is trying to counter the irrational with the rational.

    Some people are just lost causes. You could ask if the paper has actually been reviewed in a reputable journal, but he'd probably go off on some conspiracy tangent.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    MaxPB said:

    That Asda story will make national news. Expect the PM to comment tomorrow about it.

    What Asda story?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2021



    No, banning the torture of animals is right. 🤷‍♂️

    If they want to go for a trade war with that, presumably they'll drop their bans on hormone treated beef, chlorinated chicken etc which have no scientific basis? Or maybe not.

    It's actually possible that they'll get there first. The European Parliament has passed a ban on foie gras as part of a larger package of welfare measures recommended by the Commission (the central one is ending cages for laying hens and sows, in response to our Citizens' Initiative (in my day job) with 1.4 million signatures. It has to be in the final package presented by 2023 and then pass by qualified majority vote (i.e. France can't block it). I suspect we'll get there before them, but we're happy to have a race!
    Completely mad. And good luck trying to deny the Gascons and Perigourdines their foie gras. It would be like trying to ban bacon in England.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited July 2021
    Foxy said:

    The exemption process for covid isolation for key industries seems a total f*cking clusterf*ck.

    What goes on in the heads of the people designing this stuff?

    Indeed. Would my diabetic patients really be happy with me treating them while my wife had covid, on the basis of daily LFT?

    Or the HCAs in a nursing home carrying on personal care while their children had Delta?
    Depends how much they trust the vaccine (your's and there's) i guess. With a negative test result on top. And in full PPE. And what the alternative is.

    Set Covid to one side - people have always been at massively increased risk in care homes and hospitals with being looked after or coming into contact with people who are carrying (often mild) infections/illnesses, but which could ultimately prove deadly to somebody with a compromised immune system.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518



    No, banning the torture of animals is right. 🤷‍♂️

    If they want to go for a trade war with that, presumably they'll drop their bans on hormone treated beef, chlorinated chicken etc which have no scientific basis? Or maybe not.

    It's actually possible that they'll get there first. The European Parliament has passed a ban on foie gras as part of a larger package of welfare measures recommended by the Commission (the central one is ending cages for laying hens and sows, in response to our Citizens' Initiative (in my day job) with 1.4 million signatures. It has to be in the final package presented by 2023 and then pass by qualified majority vote (i.e. France can't block it). I suspect we'll get there before them, but we're happy to have a race!
    Completely mad.
    I would bet that the Foie Gras ban doesn't make it into the final package...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    That Asda story will make national news. Expect the PM to comment tomorrow about it.

    What Asda story?
    https://twitter.com/jodes_x/status/1418615941471031299?s=21
This discussion has been closed.