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It is even questionable whether we will ever be able to celebrate “Freedom Day” – politicalbetting.c

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  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Good morning, everyone.

    I know it's controversial and the source of bitter arguments, but I hope that on PB, at least, we can be polite, respectful, and civilised when discussing the first lap incident between Hamilton and Verstappen.

    51G impact, incidentally.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    kle4 said:

    “Churchillian undertones”

    This man is a total fraud. Churchill wouldn’t have tolerated a buffoon like him for five minutes.

    That Johnson persistently attempts to associate himself with Churchill is a strong indication that the man is not quite right in the head. There’s a screw loose in there. It will not end well.

    Crafty though. He does it brazenly such that even being dismissed it means his name is included in a sentence alongside that of Churchill, meaning people will think of the two together.
    Has that worked out well for Hitler?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    IanB2 said:

    That we are not having to bear some ludicrous speech from that twat in Downing Street is the only consolation from today’s fiasco.

    A typical ludicrous comment with the preempt of the attack on Boris before anything else...
    I take it that you are a big supporter of his claim that at no time yesterday did he go onto the dodge lockdown trial?
    No he obviously lied.. that's fair enough.. what I don't like is the preamble....
    With apologies for quoting the same comment twice.

    This here is why the government are still comfortably ahead in the polls. "Stop attacking Boris" says the commentator in response to Boris lying. So you check if the commentator thinks Boris is telling the truth. "no, he obviously lied".

    But you still support him. We have ended up with a polity where people support a Prime Minister who lies to their face because he thinks they are stupid - despite knowing that he is lying to them because he thinks they are stupid.

    Eugh, you lot attack Boris before anything else! You are so biased!
    Erm, we're pointing out that he is lying and treating people like fools.
    Yeah he does that. But he's winding you lot up so thats ok

    I don't get the mentality of people who dislike people calling the PM Liar because he is a liar, yet recognise that he is lying to them.
    You don't get it period. Noone got anywhere by attacking Blair and he was a consumate liar.
    When I first joined this website the Prime Minister of the day was called by some people "Bliar".

    Anyone who called him that, rather marked themselves out as somebody to ignore - despite being on my side of the political debate.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609

    They couldn't even be bothered to get a picture on the Tube - looks like the NY Subway to me:



    https://twitter.com/beisgovuk/status/1417016791579176966?s=20

    Nor do basic grammar/spelling checking!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    edited July 2021
    Some interesting stats in PJW's latest video (go to 2:43):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmc12n5uCPU

    There isn't a source for them, but it's interesting that it suggests that most of the abuse to England footballers comes from India/Middle East.

    Also, I think PJW makes a good point about cameras not giving pitch invaders air time. The same logic should apply to online trolls.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    alex_ said:

    Apropos of the BBC, why, I wonder, are they making such a big thing of the new game, the Hundred, which appears to be a) based on cricket and b) solely for TV?

    ???
    Because they are broadcasting it....???
    Leaving aside all the other numerous flaws and nonsensical marketing puff claims about how “exciting” The Hundred is going to be, I think one of its major flaws is contained within one of its core features. Ie. The need to fit within a predetermined time frame.

    Predetermined time frames, not just for games overall, but segments within games, and therefore with limited opportunity for teams to take time to think at key points of games will result in formulaic predetermined strategies with little scope for variation and innovative thinking during the course of games.

    They tried this sort of thing originally with 2020 when it was originally seen as just a bit of fun not to be taken seriously. Now the game has moved on (and I accept that part of this is due to the desire to maximise advertising opportunities), it is not unusual for games to take an hour longer than they did originally. Captains need time to think, to debate, to tweak fields - basically to change tactics and strategies as games progress.And that in itself generates excitement and interest from spectators.

    The Hundred has actually built in loads of spurious complexity, but not given the teams the time to work out how to respond to it.
    Excellent post. Of course, as an old buffer who currently watches live cricket when he can, and Test Matches on TV I'm not the intended audience. Nor are my local loyalties of any interest; it appears to be assumed that I'll identify with North London.
    Which I won't.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    A big shout out to all the PB clubbers, just back from their superspreader nights.

    Hopefully a nocturnal companion is all you managed to pick up.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Selebian said:

    BigRich said:

    What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it

    Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
    Citation
    How about all the people crying havoc about Boris removing all legal restrictions, something no other nation in Europe has done?
    rcs1000 said:

    What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it

    Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
    I don't think that's true - I think Denmark is more open than the UK.
    Debateable as it stands, but 100% definitely not the case as of midnight.

    In Denmark you can't enter a gym, or attend any organised indoor sport events without a Corona Passport. In the UK you've been able to attend a gym without a Covid passport.

    In Denmark you need a Corona Passport to enter restraurants, cafes and bars. You don't in the UK. In Denmark all restaraunts, cafes and bars much close no later than 2am.

    In Denmark for massages, haircuts and tattoos etc you must present a Covid Passport. You don't in the UK.

    In Denmark you can't enter a museum, amusement park, cinema, venues, zoos, stadiums or other sport venues without a corona passport. You can in the UK.

    In Denmark all discos and nightclubs are closed, they will be open tonight in the UK.

    In Denmark its illegal to have indoor events and activities of more than 250 people, all such restrictions are being abolished in the UK.

    In Denmark a face mask is legally required on public transport. Its not in the UK from tomorrow.

    https://en.coronasmitte.dk/rules-and-regulations
    from Midnight, we will have less restrictions that Sweden.

    https://www.visitstockholm.com/travel-info/coronavirus-covid-19-information-visitors

    Taking of which, Sweden now seems to be the only EU member not having a 3rd wave, (cases staying at 200-250 a day)

    Perhaps, that's just luck and it will start to rise next week, or maybe that's because lots of young people including under 18s had it asymptomatically in the earlier wayvs and therefor have a level of antibody/T Cell immunity, which in conjunction with the Vaccines in the Old and middle-aged.

    Anybody else with 17 months hindsight wish we had taken the Swedish approach?
    In order to understand “the Swedish approach” you have to understand a bit about Swedish culture. England could never have adopted the Swedish approach, because England (and most of RoW) lacks lots of unusual characteristics of Swedish society.

    The first and most important thing that you must learn about Sweden is the heavy bias towards the young. Swedes have a disregard for the upper middle aged and elderly that most other cultures would find utterly shocking. The elderly are *not* regarded as a reservoir of wisdom, automatically deserving respect, even veneration, as in most world cultures. It is not that Swedes dislike older people, it is just that we don’t see them as a group deserving special status. This underlies *everything* about Swedish society, and is probably the reason most foreigners find it difficult to get a grasp on us. They realise we are different, perhaps even odd, but they can’t quite put their finger on it.

    Allied to this phenomenon, children and young adults are very highly valued and resources are heavily invested in their welfare and wellbeing.

    Further, “the family”, while important, is not the be all and end all of societal structure. And levels of faith are very low by international standards (Scotland and Sweden were the first two countries to consistently measure atheists/agnostics to be in a majority).

    Then we have other odd Swedish characteristics, like a strong distrust of melodrama, suspicion of eccentrics and contrarians, a near-unanimous trust in teamwork as a problem solving technique, and remarkable gender equality (feminism is not a characteristic of the left in Sweden; women, and most men, throughout all social groups and all income levels are fundamentalist feminists in a way astonishing to most other cultures). Huge trust in technology, very low population density, small households in low density housing, many single households, very high minimum housing standards, low levels of corruption, a willingness to pay high taxes, high trust in politicians and public bodies, a sane media, etc etc etc

    Combine this with an extraordinarily decentralised civil service and political structure, and you might begin to understand our Covid19 response.

    We didn’t panic. We acted as a team. We protected the long-term interests of our children and young adults.

    It’s not rocket science.

    For people interested in the topic, I can recommend this article, which includes a fascinating diagram of world cultures: look how Sweden is way up to the top right (very low resolution and hard to read: better resolution images are available):

    ‘Sweden, the extreme country’

    https://www.iffs.se/en/news/sweden-the-extreme-country/
    That's an interesting map.

    Interesting to note that GB is on that map considered closest to . . . Australia and New Zealand. Funny that!
    Hate to beak it to you Philip, but that's not actually a map. We're still anchored just off the coast of France :tongue:
    Physical geography doesn't matter that much anymore, not when we exist in a world of instantaneous global communication and trade.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    They couldn't even be bothered to get a picture on the Tube - looks like the NY Subway to me:



    https://twitter.com/beisgovuk/status/1417016791579176966?s=20

    "There is no a legal requirement..." does nobody proofread anything anymore?
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    Scott_xP said:

    Vaccines min @nadhimzahawi on isolation u-turn: “The PM y’day talked about considering it and then very quickly realised the right thing to do is to self-isolate, as it sends a very powerful message to everybody."

    Without hint of irony, adds: “Nobody’s taking anybody for fools”.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1417021937428140033

    Love it. But does Jacob Rees-Mogg's advice still stand that we should all sing a monarchist song - and he doesn't mean the Sex Pistols' version - every time we wash our hands?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    A big shout out to all the PB clubbers, just back from their superspreader nights.

    Hopefully a nocturnal companion is all you managed to pick up.

    It's really odd that people keep saying "half a million people were pinged this week!" as if that is somehow surprising, without adding that about half a million people probably also got Covid this week.
    https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1417023416759111683
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795

    IanB2 said:

    That we are not having to bear some ludicrous speech from that twat in Downing Street is the only consolation from today’s fiasco.

    A typical ludicrous comment with the preempt of the attack on Boris before anything else...
    I take it that you are a big supporter of his claim that at no time yesterday did he go onto the dodge lockdown trial?
    No he obviously lied.. that's fair enough.. what I don't like is the preamble....
    So you recognise that he is a liar. That he thinks you are stupid enough to believe what he says. And yet attack people who point out that he is a lying twat.

    You like being lied to? Because he's on your side...
    You are deliberately missing the point. It's the comments that start with eg the lying fat fornicating fucker... that I saw yesterday.. it adds nothing to the conversation and its just venting of the spleen . I understand people don't like Boris. I don't like him either so don't tell me I am a fan because I am not.

    Your frustration is borne out of the fact that the Tories have a massive majority and that the opposition is useless and toothless. With people like Angela Rayner in the top echelon, and Labour fighting itself for the soul of the party , the future isn't bright. . Nor is it orange...
    Perhaps - just an idea - people don't like Liar because he is a liar. You say "it adds nothing to the conversation" - I disagree because there are still a stack of people out there who still don't understand that Liar is lying to them even when its brazen and in their face as yesterday was.

    Park the opposition, they aren't the point here and I don't support them anyway. Tories should not support a liar because such a man is beneath both their party and the office. Other non-lying non-cheating candidates are available and if the party had any principles they would remove him.

    You know why they don't? Because "stop calling Liar a liar, it adds nothing to the conversation".
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    RobD said:

    Discourse about today’s lifting has generally all been about masks

    Probably because it’s a “seen” thing, but to me it seems to be missing the point.

    We’ve had 6 weeks of exponential growth with masks mandates, so I think it’s optimistic to think keep them will stop that growth


    https://twitter.com/ThatRyanChap/status/1417019185876586498?s=20

    The question is how much will dropping the requirement increase growth. I don’t think anyone is claiming masks alone will stop it.
    Given the evidence it would be a bizarre claim, a bit like saying Harry Kane was used for his pace in the Euros.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    Scott_xP said:

    Vaccines min @nadhimzahawi on isolation u-turn: “The PM y’day talked about considering it and then very quickly realised the right thing to do is to self-isolate, as it sends a very powerful message to everybody."

    Without hint of irony, adds: “Nobody’s taking anybody for fools”.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1417021937428140033

    It was extremely poor judgement either by the PM or his advisers. It could be seen from a mile away that it would cause issues and understandable anger with the public.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    kle4 said:

    “Churchillian undertones”

    This man is a total fraud. Churchill wouldn’t have tolerated a buffoon like him for five minutes.

    That Johnson persistently attempts to associate himself with Churchill is a strong indication that the man is not quite right in the head. There’s a screw loose in there. It will not end well.

    Crafty though. He does it brazenly such that even being dismissed it means his name is included in a sentence alongside that of Churchill, meaning people will think of the two together.
    The risk is, that if it does all go tits up Covid-wise, it will look more like 'peace in our time'.

    (FWIW, I think the removal of legal restrictions is probably the least bad option)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,453
    edited July 2021

    Published in mid-July in The Lancet, a Hong Kong study found that people inoculated with the mRNA Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine had 10 times the amount of antibodies compared to those who received the Sinovac vaccine

    https://twitter.com/maxwalden_/status/1417018754609803265?s=20

    There is a big problem coming down the line. All those people vaccinated with a total duffer, are going to act like they are protected. And we are never going to get herd immunity.

    Also, as the world is going down the vaccine passport route, are countries going to have the balls to discriminate?

    First China lied over the virus outbreak, now they have been not honest about this vaccine and again putting the world at risk.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    A big shout out to all the PB clubbers, just back from their superspreader nights.

    Hopefully a nocturnal companion is all you managed to pick up.

    Can someone introduce me to one of the PB clubbers?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795

    IanB2 said:

    That we are not having to bear some ludicrous speech from that twat in Downing Street is the only consolation from today’s fiasco.

    A typical ludicrous comment with the preempt of the attack on Boris before anything else...
    I take it that you are a big supporter of his claim that at no time yesterday did he go onto the dodge lockdown trial?
    No he obviously lied.. that's fair enough.. what I don't like is the preamble....
    With apologies for quoting the same comment twice.

    This here is why the government are still comfortably ahead in the polls. "Stop attacking Boris" says the commentator in response to Boris lying. So you check if the commentator thinks Boris is telling the truth. "no, he obviously lied".

    But you still support him. We have ended up with a polity where people support a Prime Minister who lies to their face because he thinks they are stupid - despite knowing that he is lying to them because he thinks they are stupid.

    Eugh, you lot attack Boris before anything else! You are so biased!
    Erm, we're pointing out that he is lying and treating people like fools.
    Yeah he does that. But he's winding you lot up so thats ok

    I don't get the mentality of people who dislike people calling the PM Liar because he is a liar, yet recognise that he is lying to them.
    You don't get it period. Noone got anywhere by attacking Blair and he was a consumate liar.
    I know that Iraq wound a lot of people up (and I was on *that* march), but I don't recall him going on the media contradicting something he just said. With the non-sacking of Mancock the Liar tried it the following day. With the non-isolation he literally lied about something done two hours earlier.

    If you are happy being a Lying Clown Apologist that is your business. Don't expect the rest of us to stop calling him out on it. "Whatabout" is desperate mate, can't possibly be called out as a Lying Clown Apologist so lets talk about Blair instead.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    DougSeal said:

    A big shout out to all the PB clubbers, just back from their superspreader nights.

    Hopefully a nocturnal companion is all you managed to pick up.

    Can someone introduce me to one of the PB clubbers?
    Suspect Charles belongs to a few clubs.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    IanB2 said:

    That we are not having to bear some ludicrous speech from that twat in Downing Street is the only consolation from today’s fiasco.

    A typical ludicrous comment with the preempt of the attack on Boris before anything else...
    I take it that you are a big supporter of his claim that at no time yesterday did he go onto the dodge lockdown trial?
    No he obviously lied.. that's fair enough.. what I don't like is the preamble....
    So you recognise that he is a liar. That he thinks you are stupid enough to believe what he says. And yet attack people who point out that he is a lying twat.

    You like being lied to? Because he's on your side...
    You are deliberately missing the point. It's the comments that start with eg the lying fat fornicating fucker... that I saw yesterday.. it adds nothing to the conversation and its just venting of the spleen . I understand people don't like Boris. I don't like him either so don't tell me I am a fan because I am not.

    Your frustration is borne out of the fact that the Tories have a massive majority and that the opposition is useless and toothless. With people like Angela Rayner in the top echelon, and Labour fighting itself for the soul of the party , the future isn't bright. . Nor is it orange...
    Perhaps - just an idea - people don't like Liar because he is a liar. You say "it adds nothing to the conversation" - I disagree because there are still a stack of people out there who still don't understand that Liar is lying to them even when its brazen and in their face as yesterday was.

    Park the opposition, they aren't the point here and I don't support them anyway. Tories should not support a liar because such a man is beneath both their party and the office. Other non-lying non-cheating candidates are available and if the party had any principles they would remove him.

    You know why they don't? Because "stop calling Liar a liar, it adds nothing to the conversation".
    He is a liar, and it needs pointing out, but until there is a cohesive alternative it won’t make a blind bit of difference. It’s not enough for a missionary to tell a man his religion is false, he needs to be offered a new one.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Just had a newsletter through the day from our MP (folded A3, colour but cheapest paper possible)

    Now it's not usually worth mentioning but Rishi (with big photo) is all over the paper (as is Ben Houchen) but Boris isn't mentioned once

    So in this part of the Red Wall Boris is no longer important enough to warrant a mention, Rishi is given a page to boast about Treasury North and the train station.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    One might argue that a certain politician being deceptive has policy and public consequences given the situation in Northern Ireland.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    A big shout out to all the PB clubbers, just back from their superspreader nights.

    Hopefully a nocturnal companion is all you managed to pick up.

    It's really odd that people keep saying "half a million people were pinged this week!" as if that is somehow surprising, without adding that about half a million people probably also got Covid this week.
    https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1417023416759111683
    Which is why we need to stop the pingdemic.

    Because half a million didn't get hospitalised or die this week.

    Either we're striving for Zero Covid in which case ping people, or we're not in which case people self-isolating just because they know someone who got Covid is not appropriate.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    They couldn't even be bothered to get a picture on the Tube - looks like the NY Subway to me:



    https://twitter.com/beisgovuk/status/1417016791579176966?s=20

    "There is no a legal requirement..." does nobody proofread anything anymore?
    I can't see how anyone looked at it before it was sent out - mind you with social media that isn't that surprising.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    alex_ said:

    Apropos of the BBC, why, I wonder, are they making such a big thing of the new game, the Hundred, which appears to be a) based on cricket and b) solely for TV?

    ???
    Because they are broadcasting it....???
    Leaving aside all the other numerous flaws and nonsensical marketing puff claims about how “exciting” The Hundred is going to be, I think one of its major flaws is contained within one of its core features. Ie. The need to fit within a predetermined time frame.

    Predetermined time frames, not just for games overall, but segments within games, and therefore with limited opportunity for teams to take time to think at key points of games will result in formulaic predetermined strategies with little scope for variation and innovative thinking during the course of games.

    They tried this sort of thing originally with 2020 when it was originally seen as just a bit of fun not to be taken seriously. Now the game has moved on (and I accept that part of this is due to the desire to maximise advertising opportunities), it is not unusual for games to take an hour longer than they did originally. Captains need time to think, to debate, to tweak fields - basically to change tactics and strategies as games progress.And that in itself generates excitement and interest from spectators.

    The Hundred has actually built in loads of spurious complexity, but not given the teams the time to work out how to respond to it.
    They have had plenty of time to think how it might go, and also have played practice matches. I suspect adaptation will have quite fast too.

    I think its a 'brave' attempt by the ECB, and having it on BBC is a fundamental good. I would prefer a terrestrial broadcaster to show as much cricket as possible, but the BBC used to (a) take it for granted that they would have the rights, and (b) disappeared off to other sports frequently. Of course the number of channels available now helps, but Sky revolutionized the coverage of the sport (as did Channel 4 to some extent when they had the rights). There is a link between kids seeing the sport on TV and wanting to play, so the more kids get to see it, the better.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609

    Selebian said:

    BigRich said:

    What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it

    Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
    Citation
    How about all the people crying havoc about Boris removing all legal restrictions, something no other nation in Europe has done?
    rcs1000 said:

    What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it

    Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
    I don't think that's true - I think Denmark is more open than the UK.
    Debateable as it stands, but 100% definitely not the case as of midnight.

    In Denmark you can't enter a gym, or attend any organised indoor sport events without a Corona Passport. In the UK you've been able to attend a gym without a Covid passport.

    In Denmark you need a Corona Passport to enter restraurants, cafes and bars. You don't in the UK. In Denmark all restaraunts, cafes and bars much close no later than 2am.

    In Denmark for massages, haircuts and tattoos etc you must present a Covid Passport. You don't in the UK.

    In Denmark you can't enter a museum, amusement park, cinema, venues, zoos, stadiums or other sport venues without a corona passport. You can in the UK.

    In Denmark all discos and nightclubs are closed, they will be open tonight in the UK.

    In Denmark its illegal to have indoor events and activities of more than 250 people, all such restrictions are being abolished in the UK.

    In Denmark a face mask is legally required on public transport. Its not in the UK from tomorrow.

    https://en.coronasmitte.dk/rules-and-regulations
    from Midnight, we will have less restrictions that Sweden.

    https://www.visitstockholm.com/travel-info/coronavirus-covid-19-information-visitors

    Taking of which, Sweden now seems to be the only EU member not having a 3rd wave, (cases staying at 200-250 a day)

    Perhaps, that's just luck and it will start to rise next week, or maybe that's because lots of young people including under 18s had it asymptomatically in the earlier wayvs and therefor have a level of antibody/T Cell immunity, which in conjunction with the Vaccines in the Old and middle-aged.

    Anybody else with 17 months hindsight wish we had taken the Swedish approach?
    In order to understand “the Swedish approach” you have to understand a bit about Swedish culture. England could never have adopted the Swedish approach, because England (and most of RoW) lacks lots of unusual characteristics of Swedish society.

    The first and most important thing that you must learn about Sweden is the heavy bias towards the young. Swedes have a disregard for the upper middle aged and elderly that most other cultures would find utterly shocking. The elderly are *not* regarded as a reservoir of wisdom, automatically deserving respect, even veneration, as in most world cultures. It is not that Swedes dislike older people, it is just that we don’t see them as a group deserving special status. This underlies *everything* about Swedish society, and is probably the reason most foreigners find it difficult to get a grasp on us. They realise we are different, perhaps even odd, but they can’t quite put their finger on it.

    Allied to this phenomenon, children and young adults are very highly valued and resources are heavily invested in their welfare and wellbeing.

    Further, “the family”, while important, is not the be all and end all of societal structure. And levels of faith are very low by international standards (Scotland and Sweden were the first two countries to consistently measure atheists/agnostics to be in a majority).

    Then we have other odd Swedish characteristics, like a strong distrust of melodrama, suspicion of eccentrics and contrarians, a near-unanimous trust in teamwork as a problem solving technique, and remarkable gender equality (feminism is not a characteristic of the left in Sweden; women, and most men, throughout all social groups and all income levels are fundamentalist feminists in a way astonishing to most other cultures). Huge trust in technology, very low population density, small households in low density housing, many single households, very high minimum housing standards, low levels of corruption, a willingness to pay high taxes, high trust in politicians and public bodies, a sane media, etc etc etc

    Combine this with an extraordinarily decentralised civil service and political structure, and you might begin to understand our Covid19 response.

    We didn’t panic. We acted as a team. We protected the long-term interests of our children and young adults.

    It’s not rocket science.

    For people interested in the topic, I can recommend this article, which includes a fascinating diagram of world cultures: look how Sweden is way up to the top right (very low resolution and hard to read: better resolution images are available):

    ‘Sweden, the extreme country’

    https://www.iffs.se/en/news/sweden-the-extreme-country/
    That's an interesting map.

    Interesting to note that GB is on that map considered closest to . . . Australia and New Zealand. Funny that!
    Hate to beak it to you Philip, but that's not actually a map. We're still anchored just off the coast of France :tongue:
    Physical geography doesn't matter that much anymore, not when we exist in a world of instantaneous global communication and trade.
    I shall remember that line next time I get my family lost on a walk or in the car by taking a cunning shortcut :smile:
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    How stupid is Katie Hopkins? I mean, I know she’s got a vile set of viewpoints, but she’s also practically bankrupt, got herself a sweet probably remunerative gig on Celebrity Big Brother Australia, but couldn’t keep her mouth shut for just 2 weeks.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    Scott_xP said:

    Today we are free from Covid in the same way Brexit gave us Sovereignty...

    So a marginal change from yesterday, but a change nonetheless? I'm glad you've accepted that some sovreignty did come back with brexit...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    MaxPB said:

    On Sunday, experts warned that it may be difficult to reach herd immunity in Britain if children are not vaccinated. Nearly one in five people in the UK are under 16 and, despite everyone being offered a vaccine, around 12 per cent of adults have not had a first jab.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/18/children-could-yet-get-covid-vaccines-experts-warn-threat-herd/

    Our failure to vaccinate under 18's will sink us

    There have been conflicting reports about vaccinating schoolchildren. According to Robert Jenrick, JCVI will make its recommendations this week. The Telegraph reported JCVI will not advise vaccinating schoolchildren. (Fwiw, imo it might be easier to wait till they return to school in September.)
    Though it's totally out of character for The Sunday Telegraph, or any other paper, to reveal something they would like to be true as hard fact. Especially if they hope that their revelation will make the fact, so to speak.

    (The bigger question might be the one about- if we do want to vaccinate teens, how and when do we get the 10 million or so doses of mRNA vaccine needed?)
    Again, we've got 60m doses of Pfizer which has commenced deliveries. You seem to be stuck with this impression that we didn't make a second order, but we did.

    It's also becoming clear that the 50+ booster programme is going to be predominantly AZ.
    Which could mean that a lot of people who are in the younger part of that age group will be getting a third AZ vaccination - but I suspect that isn't the plan and Pfizer or moderna will be given to those who have already had AZ?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    The article is absolutely correct. It has been obvious for ages that there cannot be some particular 'day' (week, month, year) when this is over. If it is over at all it will be a gradual and tentative period of time; taking the world as a whole it will be gradual at best.

    Even if everything goes brilliantly in terms of 'herd immunity', vaccination, development of sensible protocols etc; at the moment there is nothing to indicate the impossibility of (to take a random example) the emergence of a variant which is all of these: highly transmissible, immune to current vaccines and kills 5% of all infected between the ages of 3 and 24 in all parts of the world.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    BigRich said:

    What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it

    Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
    Citation
    How about all the people crying havoc about Boris removing all legal restrictions, something no other nation in Europe has done?
    rcs1000 said:

    What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it

    Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
    I don't think that's true - I think Denmark is more open than the UK.
    Debateable as it stands, but 100% definitely not the case as of midnight.

    In Denmark you can't enter a gym, or attend any organised indoor sport events without a Corona Passport. In the UK you've been able to attend a gym without a Covid passport.

    In Denmark you need a Corona Passport to enter restraurants, cafes and bars. You don't in the UK. In Denmark all restaraunts, cafes and bars much close no later than 2am.

    In Denmark for massages, haircuts and tattoos etc you must present a Covid Passport. You don't in the UK.

    In Denmark you can't enter a museum, amusement park, cinema, venues, zoos, stadiums or other sport venues without a corona passport. You can in the UK.

    In Denmark all discos and nightclubs are closed, they will be open tonight in the UK.

    In Denmark its illegal to have indoor events and activities of more than 250 people, all such restrictions are being abolished in the UK.

    In Denmark a face mask is legally required on public transport. Its not in the UK from tomorrow.

    https://en.coronasmitte.dk/rules-and-regulations
    from Midnight, we will have less restrictions that Sweden.

    https://www.visitstockholm.com/travel-info/coronavirus-covid-19-information-visitors

    Taking of which, Sweden now seems to be the only EU member not having a 3rd wave, (cases staying at 200-250 a day)

    Perhaps, that's just luck and it will start to rise next week, or maybe that's because lots of young people including under 18s had it asymptomatically in the earlier wayvs and therefor have a level of antibody/T Cell immunity, which in conjunction with the Vaccines in the Old and middle-aged.

    Anybody else with 17 months hindsight wish we had taken the Swedish approach?
    In order to understand “the Swedish approach” you have to understand a bit about Swedish culture. England could never have adopted the Swedish approach, because England (and most of RoW) lacks lots of unusual characteristics of Swedish society.

    The first and most important thing that you must learn about Sweden is the heavy bias towards the young. Swedes have a disregard for the upper middle aged and elderly that most other cultures would find utterly shocking. The elderly are *not* regarded as a reservoir of wisdom, automatically deserving respect, even veneration, as in most world cultures. It is not that Swedes dislike older people, it is just that we don’t see them as a group deserving special status. This underlies *everything* about Swedish society, and is probably the reason most foreigners find it difficult to get a grasp on us. They realise we are different, perhaps even odd, but they can’t quite put their finger on it.

    Allied to this phenomenon, children and young adults are very highly valued and resources are heavily invested in their welfare and wellbeing.

    Further, “the family”, while important, is not the be all and end all of societal structure. And levels of faith are very low by international standards (Scotland and Sweden were the first two countries to consistently measure atheists/agnostics to be in a majority).

    Then we have other odd Swedish characteristics, like a strong distrust of melodrama, suspicion of eccentrics and contrarians, a near-unanimous trust in teamwork as a problem solving technique, and remarkable gender equality (feminism is not a characteristic of the left in Sweden; women, and most men, throughout all social groups and all income levels are fundamentalist feminists in a way astonishing to most other cultures). Huge trust in technology, very low population density, small households in low density housing, many single households, very high minimum housing standards, low levels of corruption, a willingness to pay high taxes, high trust in politicians and public bodies, a sane media, etc etc etc

    Combine this with an extraordinarily decentralised civil service and political structure, and you might begin to understand our Covid19 response.

    We didn’t panic. We acted as a team. We protected the long-term interests of our children and young adults.

    It’s not rocket science.

    For people interested in the topic, I can recommend this article, which includes a fascinating diagram of world cultures: look how Sweden is way up to the top right (very low resolution and hard to read: better resolution images are available):

    ‘Sweden, the extreme country’

    https://www.iffs.se/en/news/sweden-the-extreme-country/
    That's an interesting map.

    Interesting to note that GB is on that map considered closest to . . . Australia and New Zealand. Funny that!
    It is an fascinating map for sure. The WVS is an interesting dataset, I have used it in academic research. On a point of clarification though, it looks like we are closest to NZ but closer to Belgium, Switzerland and the US than Australia. Some interesting results in there more broadly... How come everyone has missed the obvious solution to the Northern Ireland problem - give it to Uruguay. As someone with experience of the raw data, I would point out that the variation in opinions within countries is far greater than across countries, and for instance the elderly in two countries often have views more similar to each other than to the young in their own countries. Still, the differences in country means are significant and interesting.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    They couldn't even be bothered to get a picture on the Tube - looks like the NY Subway to me:



    https://twitter.com/beisgovuk/status/1417016791579176966?s=20

    "There is no a legal requirement..." does nobody proofread anything anymore?
    It means they can just add a W after 'no' when there is a policy U-Turn.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,453
    edited July 2021
    DougSeal said:

    How stupid is Katie Hopkins? I mean, I know she’s got a vile set of viewpoints, but she’s also practically bankrupt, got herself a sweet probably remunerative gig on Celebrity Big Brother Australia, but couldn’t keep her mouth shut for just 2 weeks.

    That's her shtick though....oh look at me i'm a rebel, i say the unsayable, i do things i shouldn't...and they cancelled me for it. Then the real world catches up.

    Remember she was bankrupted by doing this, rather than just apologize.

    More interestingly is does anybody in Australia even know who she is? To go on a show for celebrities?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    So a marginal change from yesterday, but a change nonetheless?

    Ummm, no.

    If you think you are more free from Covid today than you were yesterday I have a bridge for sale...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    tlg86 said:

    Children must be a fair way to herd immunity all by themselves. Whether we vaccinate them is probably neither here nor there.

    Don't think that stacks up with the data. It's proven that under 25's are now the major source of spreading the virus.
    Presumably to other under 25s?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    The destruction of public consent in the test and trace system yesterday morning will be very hard to turnaround
    https://twitter.com/susannareid100/status/1417028647387602951
    https://twitter.com/TVpsychologist/status/1417028169702518784
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited July 2021
    Good Starmer questions. It stinks.

    Then again, 8% of me looks on this like the dedicated jet/first class/slum it in economy argument with the PM. I don't want the PM to have to rely on Speedy Boarding when he wants to attend a World Leaders' summit somewhere. Likewise, if he is fit and well and testing negative I want him available and doing his job.

    Perhaps that is 18%.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    BigRich said:

    What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it

    Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
    Citation
    How about all the people crying havoc about Boris removing all legal restrictions, something no other nation in Europe has done?
    rcs1000 said:

    What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it

    Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
    I don't think that's true - I think Denmark is more open than the UK.
    Debateable as it stands, but 100% definitely not the case as of midnight.

    In Denmark you can't enter a gym, or attend any organised indoor sport events without a Corona Passport. In the UK you've been able to attend a gym without a Covid passport.

    In Denmark you need a Corona Passport to enter restraurants, cafes and bars. You don't in the UK. In Denmark all restaraunts, cafes and bars much close no later than 2am.

    In Denmark for massages, haircuts and tattoos etc you must present a Covid Passport. You don't in the UK.

    In Denmark you can't enter a museum, amusement park, cinema, venues, zoos, stadiums or other sport venues without a corona passport. You can in the UK.

    In Denmark all discos and nightclubs are closed, they will be open tonight in the UK.

    In Denmark its illegal to have indoor events and activities of more than 250 people, all such restrictions are being abolished in the UK.

    In Denmark a face mask is legally required on public transport. Its not in the UK from tomorrow.

    https://en.coronasmitte.dk/rules-and-regulations
    from Midnight, we will have less restrictions that Sweden.

    https://www.visitstockholm.com/travel-info/coronavirus-covid-19-information-visitors

    Taking of which, Sweden now seems to be the only EU member not having a 3rd wave, (cases staying at 200-250 a day)

    Perhaps, that's just luck and it will start to rise next week, or maybe that's because lots of young people including under 18s had it asymptomatically in the earlier wayvs and therefor have a level of antibody/T Cell immunity, which in conjunction with the Vaccines in the Old and middle-aged.

    Anybody else with 17 months hindsight wish we had taken the Swedish approach?
    In order to understand “the Swedish approach” you have to understand a bit about Swedish culture. England could never have adopted the Swedish approach, because England (and most of RoW) lacks lots of unusual characteristics of Swedish society.

    The first and most important thing that you must learn about Sweden is the heavy bias towards the young. Swedes have a disregard for the upper middle aged and elderly that most other cultures would find utterly shocking. The elderly are *not* regarded as a reservoir of wisdom, automatically deserving respect, even veneration, as in most world cultures. It is not that Swedes dislike older people, it is just that we don’t see them as a group deserving special status. This underlies *everything* about Swedish society, and is probably the reason most foreigners find it difficult to get a grasp on us. They realise we are different, perhaps even odd, but they can’t quite put their finger on it.

    Allied to this phenomenon, children and young adults are very highly valued and resources are heavily invested in their welfare and wellbeing.

    Further, “the family”, while important, is not the be all and end all of societal structure. And levels of faith are very low by international standards (Scotland and Sweden were the first two countries to consistently measure atheists/agnostics to be in a majority).

    Then we have other odd Swedish characteristics, like a strong distrust of melodrama, suspicion of eccentrics and contrarians, a near-unanimous trust in teamwork as a problem solving technique, and remarkable gender equality (feminism is not a characteristic of the left in Sweden; women, and most men, throughout all social groups and all income levels are fundamentalist feminists in a way astonishing to most other cultures). Huge trust in technology, very low population density, small households in low density housing, many single households, very high minimum housing standards, low levels of corruption, a willingness to pay high taxes, high trust in politicians and public bodies, a sane media, etc etc etc

    Combine this with an extraordinarily decentralised civil service and political structure, and you might begin to understand our Covid19 response.

    We didn’t panic. We acted as a team. We protected the long-term interests of our children and young adults.

    It’s not rocket science.

    For people interested in the topic, I can recommend this article, which includes a fascinating diagram of world cultures: look how Sweden is way up to the top right (very low resolution and hard to read: better resolution images are available):

    ‘Sweden, the extreme country’

    https://www.iffs.se/en/news/sweden-the-extreme-country/
    That's an interesting map.

    Interesting to note that GB is on that map considered closest to . . . Australia and New Zealand. Funny that!
    It is an fascinating map for sure. The WVS is an interesting dataset, I have used it in academic research. On a point of clarification though, it looks like we are closest to NZ but closer to Belgium, Switzerland and the US than Australia. Some interesting results in there more broadly... How come everyone has missed the obvious solution to the Northern Ireland problem - give it to Uruguay. As someone with experience of the raw data, I would point out that the variation in opinions within countries is far greater than across countries, and for instance the elderly in two countries often have views more similar to each other than to the young in their own countries. Still, the differences in country means are significant and interesting.
    The map illustrates very simply a couple of things; firstly why the EU is unstable inasmuch as it tries gather elements of statehood. Secondly how it is that controversy over migration into GB is not uniform. There is no country close to us on the 'map' whose migrants attract the less favourable attention of the extreme right, or indeed normal people.

    BTW Scotland belongs more to Protestant Europe. England less so. Explains a lot.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    edited July 2021
    .

    They couldn't even be bothered to get a picture on the Tube - looks like the NY Subway to me:



    https://twitter.com/beisgovuk/status/1417016791579176966?s=20

    "There is no a legal requirement..." does nobody proofread anything anymore?
    Perfectly acceptable Scottish usage.

    Strong Britain, great nation.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    DougSeal said:

    IanB2 said:

    That we are not having to bear some ludicrous speech from that twat in Downing Street is the only consolation from today’s fiasco.

    A typical ludicrous comment with the preempt of the attack on Boris before anything else...
    I take it that you are a big supporter of his claim that at no time yesterday did he go onto the dodge lockdown trial?
    No he obviously lied.. that's fair enough.. what I don't like is the preamble....
    So you recognise that he is a liar. That he thinks you are stupid enough to believe what he says. And yet attack people who point out that he is a lying twat.

    You like being lied to? Because he's on your side...
    You are deliberately missing the point. It's the comments that start with eg the lying fat fornicating fucker... that I saw yesterday.. it adds nothing to the conversation and its just venting of the spleen . I understand people don't like Boris. I don't like him either so don't tell me I am a fan because I am not.

    Your frustration is borne out of the fact that the Tories have a massive majority and that the opposition is useless and toothless. With people like Angela Rayner in the top echelon, and Labour fighting itself for the soul of the party , the future isn't bright. . Nor is it orange...
    Perhaps - just an idea - people don't like Liar because he is a liar. You say "it adds nothing to the conversation" - I disagree because there are still a stack of people out there who still don't understand that Liar is lying to them even when its brazen and in their face as yesterday was.

    Park the opposition, they aren't the point here and I don't support them anyway. Tories should not support a liar because such a man is beneath both their party and the office. Other non-lying non-cheating candidates are available and if the party had any principles they would remove him.

    You know why they don't? Because "stop calling Liar a liar, it adds nothing to the conversation".
    He is a liar, and it needs pointing out, but until there is a cohesive alternative it won’t make a blind bit of difference. It’s not enough for a missionary to tell a man his religion is false, he needs to be offered a new one.
    There is a cohesive alternative. Sunak.

    This isn't about the miraculous resurrection of Labour so that they win back the Midlands and North and Scotland and Southern towns and actually manage to win an election. That still feels a long way off, and the need is more urgent.

    Tories need to stop apologising for the lying clown, recognise the long term damage he is doing to their party and to the country and do something. At the very least stop excusing him - if he loses the support of his own party he can't carry on twatting about can he?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,453
    edited July 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    The destruction of public consent in the test and trace system yesterday morning will be very hard to turnaround
    https://twitter.com/susannareid100/status/1417028647387602951
    https://twitter.com/TVpsychologist/status/1417028169702518784

    Of course we know only about 20% actually stick to the isolation any way....there has never been public buy in for what is fully required, hence why we are partially in this situation.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364
    Bo-Jo lies! Shock! Horrors!

    Which politician doesn't? Whether directly, or by evasion and misinformation. Some are better liars than others

    We show our bias by how we react to it. I do too.

    In the same way, newspapers and TV channels show their political inclination by the stories they concentrate on.

    But one obvious fact that irritates me is when people don't seem to understand the basics. Antibiotics can kill bacteria directly. Vaccines don't. They prime the immune system to do it. If your immune system is failing, through age or infirmity, you'll have problems. This seems hard to understand for some reason.

    Incidentally, do they still routinely use adjuvants? Genuine question. I could google but often you can get an expert on here to explain better.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    eek said:

    Just had a newsletter through the day from our MP (folded A3, colour but cheapest paper possible)

    Now it's not usually worth mentioning but Rishi (with big photo) is all over the paper (as is Ben Houchen) but Boris isn't mentioned once

    So in this part of the Red Wall Boris is no longer important enough to warrant a mention, Rishi is given a page to boast about Treasury North and the train station.

    Can I ask who your MP is?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited July 2021

    eek said:

    Just had a newsletter through the day from our MP (folded A3, colour but cheapest paper possible)

    Now it's not usually worth mentioning but Rishi (with big photo) is all over the paper (as is Ben Houchen) but Boris isn't mentioned once

    So in this part of the Red Wall Boris is no longer important enough to warrant a mention, Rishi is given a page to boast about Treasury North and the train station.

    Can I ask who your MP is?
    Peter Gibson - I thought you of all people on here knew I lived in Darlo ( I did think Treasury North was a clue).
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    On Sunday, experts warned that it may be difficult to reach herd immunity in Britain if children are not vaccinated. Nearly one in five people in the UK are under 16 and, despite everyone being offered a vaccine, around 12 per cent of adults have not had a first jab.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/18/children-could-yet-get-covid-vaccines-experts-warn-threat-herd/

    Our failure to vaccinate under 18's will sink us

    There have been conflicting reports about vaccinating schoolchildren. According to Robert Jenrick, JCVI will make its recommendations this week. The Telegraph reported JCVI will not advise vaccinating schoolchildren. (Fwiw, imo it might be easier to wait till they return to school in September.)
    Though it's totally out of character for The Sunday Telegraph, or any other paper, to reveal something they would like to be true as hard fact. Especially if they hope that their revelation will make the fact, so to speak.

    (The bigger question might be the one about- if we do want to vaccinate teens, how and when do we get the 10 million or so doses of mRNA vaccine needed?)
    Again, we've got 60m doses of Pfizer which has commenced deliveries. You seem to be stuck with this impression that we didn't make a second order, but we did.

    It's also becoming clear that the 50+ booster programme is going to be predominantly AZ.
    Which could mean that a lot of people who are in the younger part of that age group will be getting a third AZ vaccination - but I suspect that isn't the plan and Pfizer or moderna will be given to those who have already had AZ?
    Not necessarily, a third AZ dose in AZ recipients produces the same immune response as it does in Pfizer recipients so it might not make any difference.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    With reference to @DougSeal pointing out that a "cohesive alternative" to the liar is needed, tomorrow could be a pivotal day.

    Labour's NEC are meeting and on the agenda is the mass expulsion of the anti-semites and revolutionary marxists. Already the likes of Laura Pillock are ranting about it on Twitter, they know that if passed the Labour Party takes a big step towards electability which is why she is so against it.

    My "kick them out" argument upsets a few people arguing that Starmer should appease, but he's tried that and appears to have realised that appeasement only encourages them.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    I’m having elective surgery in Newcastle the Covid capital tomorrow. Not cancelled as of yet.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    I’m having elective surgery in Newcastle the Covid capital tomorrow. Not cancelled as of yet.

    Good luck. Are you going straight on from Revolution?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    ydoethur said:

    I know one skiving butterball who'll be ecstatic to be spending 'Freedom Day' in a grace and favour mansion with large estate and swimming pool, waited on hand and foot and his lazy fecker inclinations legitimised & indulged.

    I thought he was talking to the police about that missing money this morning?

    If so, surely they’ll be at the cop shop not the poolside?
    They have found missing Pete?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    With reference to @DougSeal pointing out that a "cohesive alternative" to the liar is needed, tomorrow could be a pivotal day.

    Labour's NEC are meeting and on the agenda is the mass expulsion of the anti-semites and revolutionary marxists. Already the likes of Laura Pillock are ranting about it on Twitter, they know that if passed the Labour Party takes a big step towards electability which is why she is so against it.

    My "kick them out" argument upsets a few people arguing that Starmer should appease, but he's tried that and appears to have realised that appeasement only encourages them.

    Would you consider rejoining a cleansed Lab party?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    I also have a Training Contract interview on Thursday. Going to be touch and go on the doped up on painkillers front.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    edited July 2021
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Just had a newsletter through the day from our MP (folded A3, colour but cheapest paper possible)

    Now it's not usually worth mentioning but Rishi (with big photo) is all over the paper (as is Ben Houchen) but Boris isn't mentioned once

    So in this part of the Red Wall Boris is no longer important enough to warrant a mention, Rishi is given a page to boast about Treasury North and the train station.

    Can I ask who your MP is?
    Peter Gibson - I thought you of all people on here knew I lived in Darlo.
    I forgot who he was tbh - Darlo is still Jenny Chapman in my head. With Sunak being his neighbour and the guy splashing the cash its not a surprise that he is front and centre of local promotional stuff. Its the same with Matt Vickers.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    TOPPING said:

    I’m having elective surgery in Newcastle the Covid capital tomorrow. Not cancelled as of yet.

    Good luck. Are you going straight on from Revolution?
    Straight on from Sinners my good man
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    That we are not having to bear some ludicrous speech from that twat in Downing Street is the only consolation from today’s fiasco.

    A typical ludicrous comment with the preempt of the attack on Boris before anything else...
    I take it that you are a big supporter of his claim that at no time yesterday did he go onto the dodge lockdown trial?
    No he obviously lied.. that's fair enough.. what I don't like is the preamble....
    So you recognise that he is a liar. That he thinks you are stupid enough to believe what he says. And yet attack people who point out that he is a lying twat.

    You like being lied to? Because he's on your side...
    You are deliberately missing the point. It's the comments that start with eg the lying fat fornicating fucker... that I saw yesterday.. it adds nothing to the conversation and its just venting of the spleen . I understand people don't like Boris. I don't like him either so don't tell me I am a fan because I am not.

    Your frustration is borne out of the fact that the Tories have a massive majority and that the opposition is useless and toothless. With people like Angela Rayner in the top echelon, and Labour fighting itself for the soul of the party , the future isn't bright. . Nor is it orange...
    Yeah, I just turn off when I read statements like that. I’m not sure abusive language helps anyone make an argument here.
    It does narrow down what lying Tory they are referring to though.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    I also have a Training Contract interview on Thursday. Going to be touch and go on the doped up on painkillers front.

    Forewarn them now - that you have an operation booked for tomorrow. It won't do you any harm and may give you a few bonus points.
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298

    tlg86 said:

    Children must be a fair way to herd immunity all by themselves. Whether we vaccinate them is probably neither here nor there.

    Don't think that stacks up with the data. It's proven that under 25's are now the major source of spreading the virus.
    Why not blame TikTok users? What you probably mean is that the unvaccinated are more likely to catch the virus and then spread it than the vaccinated, and the unvaccinated are more likely to be under 25. They're probably also more likely to be nurses.


  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,453
    BBC - Mark Dawson is travelling to Scunthorpe for work this morning, he’s glad of the chance to take the mask off. He says: “I was bored of them after two days."

    They aren't there to entertain or as a fashion accessory....
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270
    TOPPING said:

    Good Starmer questions. It stinks.

    Then again, 8% of me looks on this like the dedicated jet/first class/slum it in economy argument with the PM. I don't want the PM to have to rely on Speedy Boarding when he wants to attend a World Leaders' summit somewhere. Likewise, if he is fit and well and testing negative I want him available and doing his job.

    Perhaps that is 18%.

    I think that as far as Johnson is concerned this debacle over the last 48 hours all sends entirely the wrong message. We know that Johnson has had the virus and the whole UK strategy has been based on the principle that we cannot open up again until the population are either vaccinated or have anti-bodies through infection.

    Making Johnson self isolate sends the very simple message that we are never going to be able to go back to normal life. If having the best form of immunity going isn't enough then nothing ever will be.

    Johnson should have taken the opportunity to say that he was leading by example (please don't laugh at the back I know it is a ridiculous concept where he is concerned) and that there would no longer be any need to self isolate for those who are jabbed or can prove to have the antibodies.

    The message now is that we will never be free of these controls because they are following a zero case policy even if they don't announce it officially.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    TOPPING said:

    With reference to @DougSeal pointing out that a "cohesive alternative" to the liar is needed, tomorrow could be a pivotal day.

    Labour's NEC are meeting and on the agenda is the mass expulsion of the anti-semites and revolutionary marxists. Already the likes of Laura Pillock are ranting about it on Twitter, they know that if passed the Labour Party takes a big step towards electability which is why she is so against it.

    My "kick them out" argument upsets a few people arguing that Starmer should appease, but he's tried that and appears to have realised that appeasement only encourages them.

    Would you consider rejoining a cleansed Lab party?
    1. I've moved on. I realised my politics and theirs had been diverging for a while, and my brief flirt with Corbyn was a result of me desperately trying to find some kind of change to keep me onboard. I didn't actually support Corbyn, I did support changing the narrative
    2. Enjoying my LibDem membership. I think we can do something up here in Aberdeenshire. What there is of a local Labour Party appears to be suffering from foaming dog fever
    2. Even if I did want to rejoin I am only 1 year into my 5 year ban :)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    IanB2 said:

    That we are not having to bear some ludicrous speech from that twat in Downing Street is the only consolation from today’s fiasco.

    A typical ludicrous comment with the preempt of the attack on Boris before anything else...
    I take it that you are a big supporter of his claim that at no time yesterday did he go onto the dodge lockdown trial?
    No he obviously lied.. that's fair enough.. what I don't like is the preamble....
    With apologies for quoting the same comment twice.

    This here is why the government are still comfortably ahead in the polls. "Stop attacking Boris" says the commentator in response to Boris lying. So you check if the commentator thinks Boris is telling the truth. "no, he obviously lied".

    But you still support him. We have ended up with a polity where people support a Prime Minister who lies to their face because he thinks they are stupid - despite knowing that he is lying to them because he thinks they are stupid.

    Eugh, you lot attack Boris before anything else! You are so biased!
    Erm, we're pointing out that he is lying and treating people like fools.
    Yeah he does that. But he's winding you lot up so thats ok

    I don't get the mentality of people who dislike people calling the PM Liar because he is a liar, yet recognise that he is lying to them.
    Feel free to keep calling him Liar - I know you like to. Personally I think he is from a long line of liars. Political standards have definitely slipped. It used to be that a politician would do almost anything to avoid telling a direct lie, pace Michael Howard (?), but now, as chronicled by Peter Oborne in 'The Rise of Political Lying', no such efforts are deemed needed. If a lie is exposed, it was merely mispoken, or taken out of context or whatever.
    To spread it a round a bit, the previous Labour leader was certainly no stranger with deceit, as his repeated issues around Jews showed.
    Its sad that it has come to this. Its almost priced in now, hence Johnson's seeming defying of gravity in the polls.
    I also sense that Starmer is less likely to do it, although he has a nasty habit of trying to skewer the PM on a detail, and not always being wholly correct.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    eek said:

    I also have a Training Contract interview on Thursday. Going to be touch and go on the doped up on painkillers front.

    Forewarn them now - that you have an operation booked for tomorrow. It won't do you any harm and may give you a few bonus points.
    I have done so already thankfully! I had to push it back 2 days as it was originally scheduled for tomorrow.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    Straight on from Sinners my good man

    I also have a Training Contract interview on Thursday. Going to be touch and go on the doped up on painkillers front.

    Yes, that makes sense...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Just had a newsletter through the day from our MP (folded A3, colour but cheapest paper possible)

    Now it's not usually worth mentioning but Rishi (with big photo) is all over the paper (as is Ben Houchen) but Boris isn't mentioned once

    So in this part of the Red Wall Boris is no longer important enough to warrant a mention, Rishi is given a page to boast about Treasury North and the train station.

    Can I ask who your MP is?
    Peter Gibson - I thought you of all people on here knew I lived in Darlo.
    I forgot who he was tbh - Darlo is still Jenny Chapman in my head. With Sunak being his neighbour and the guy splashing the cash its not a surprise that he is front and centre of local promotional stuff. Its the same with Matt Vickers.
    As I know Jenny I can tell the difference between a former councillor and a former lawyer whose law firm was closed by the law society 6 months after he sold it.

    And there is more to this than just Sunak being the next MP (to the south west) here. Rishi's piece is the bit the PM would be doing and the fact Boris has disappeared from a leaflet where he was always first and centre previously is telling.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795

    I also have a Training Contract interview on Thursday. Going to be touch and go on the doped up on painkillers front.

    A long long time ago in a galaxy far far away I went down to that London seeking employment. A week of recruitment agency interviews and I landed a proper interview.
    My mates took me out for a celebratory drink, got me hammered and I went to the interview badly hung over.

    Got the job! You'll be fine :D
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,453
    edited July 2021
    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?

    How many have refused to send little Jonny or little Jessica to school "just in case"?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    Scott_xP said:

    So a marginal change from yesterday, but a change nonetheless?

    Ummm, no.

    If you think you are more free from Covid today than you were yesterday I have a bridge for sale...
    I can go to a nightclub tonight if I want. I can gather with more than 6 in my home tonight if I want, many shops will no longer require me to wear a mask, and it won't be illegal not to. Things have materially changed.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677


    Iranian military (IRINS Makran) in the Channel. Nobody tell Mark Francois or we'll be at war before Coronation Street starts.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,453
    tlg86 said:

    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?

    How many have refused to send little Jonny or little Jessica to school "just in case"?
    BBC News - Covid: Home-education numbers rise by 75%
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57255380
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Just had a newsletter through the day from our MP (folded A3, colour but cheapest paper possible)

    Now it's not usually worth mentioning but Rishi (with big photo) is all over the paper (as is Ben Houchen) but Boris isn't mentioned once

    So in this part of the Red Wall Boris is no longer important enough to warrant a mention, Rishi is given a page to boast about Treasury North and the train station.

    Can I ask who your MP is?
    Peter Gibson - I thought you of all people on here knew I lived in Darlo.
    I forgot who he was tbh - Darlo is still Jenny Chapman in my head. With Sunak being his neighbour and the guy splashing the cash its not a surprise that he is front and centre of local promotional stuff. Its the same with Matt Vickers.
    As I know Jenny I can tell the difference between a former councillor and a former lawyer whose law firm was closed by the law society 6 months after he sold it.

    And there is more to this than just Sunak being the next MP (to the south west) here. Rishi's piece is the bit the PM would be doing and the fact Boris has disappeared from a leaflet where he was always first and centre previously is telling.
    It is - I think that Rishi is well in with Teesside Tories (widely seen as a success story) and makes sure that its his face and his cash being talked about. Back when it was the run-up to the election of course they would put the Liar on there. Now they won then need to build credibility, hence taking him off.

    Its the same with Labour MPs and candidates putting out leaflets that did not talk about Jeremy Corbyn. A conscious decision we made when writing Paul Williams' campaign in 2017 for Stockton South.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    I can go to a nightclub tonight if I want. I can gather with more than 6 in my home tonight if I want, many shops will no longer require me to wear a mask, and it won't be illegal not to.

    None of which makes you more free from Covid than you were yesterday
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    I’m having elective surgery in Newcastle the Covid capital tomorrow. Not cancelled as of yet.

    I don't see why we should cancel you just because you are having surgery...
    Oh I see!
    Good luck!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    tlg86 said:

    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?

    How many have refused to send little Jonny or little Jessica to school "just in case"?
    BBC News - Covid: Home-education numbers rise by 75%
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57255380
    Given the amount of time some children have spent out of school it makes sense to cut your loses and just educate them yourself the other 25-40% of the time.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    DougSeal said:

    How stupid is Katie Hopkins? I mean, I know she’s got a vile set of viewpoints, but she’s also practically bankrupt, got herself a sweet probably remunerative gig on Celebrity Big Brother Australia, but couldn’t keep her mouth shut for just 2 weeks.

    She answered the door to her quarantine room naked. No wonder they deported her.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited July 2021
    eek said:

    I also have a Training Contract interview on Thursday. Going to be touch and go on the doped up on painkillers front.

    Forewarn them now - that you have an operation booked for tomorrow. It won't do you any harm and may give you a few bonus points.
    Yeah but don't look like a lunatic braving everything to go to the session. Would have a touch of desperation about it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Quite a lot replacement items coming in my shopping delivery later apparently.

    Looks like the pingdemic is starting to hit on supplies?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    tlg86 said:

    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?

    How many have refused to send little Jonny or little Jessica to school "just in case"?
    BBC News - Covid: Home-education numbers rise by 75%
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57255380
    More than 40,000 pupils were formally taken out of school in the UK between September 2020 and April 2021, compared with an average of 23,000 over the previous two years.

    So about 17,000 children.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,453

    DougSeal said:

    How stupid is Katie Hopkins? I mean, I know she’s got a vile set of viewpoints, but she’s also practically bankrupt, got herself a sweet probably remunerative gig on Celebrity Big Brother Australia, but couldn’t keep her mouth shut for just 2 weeks.

    She answered the door to her quarantine room naked. No wonder they deported her.
    I don't believe she did, she said she was going to do it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    Quite a lot replacement items coming in my shopping delivery later apparently.

    Looks like the pingdemic is starting to hit on supplies?

    that's Brexit
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited July 2021

    TOPPING said:

    Good Starmer questions. It stinks.

    Then again, 8% of me looks on this like the dedicated jet/first class/slum it in economy argument with the PM. I don't want the PM to have to rely on Speedy Boarding when he wants to attend a World Leaders' summit somewhere. Likewise, if he is fit and well and testing negative I want him available and doing his job.

    Perhaps that is 18%.

    I think that as far as Johnson is concerned this debacle over the last 48 hours all sends entirely the wrong message. We know that Johnson has had the virus and the whole UK strategy has been based on the principle that we cannot open up again until the population are either vaccinated or have anti-bodies through infection.

    Making Johnson self isolate sends the very simple message that we are never going to be able to go back to normal life. If having the best form of immunity going isn't enough then nothing ever will be.

    Johnson should have taken the opportunity to say that he was leading by example (please don't laugh at the back I know it is a ridiculous concept where he is concerned) and that there would no longer be any need to self isolate for those who are jabbed or can prove to have the antibodies.

    The message now is that we will never be free of these controls because they are following a zero case policy even if they don't announce it officially.
    I agree the trouble, compounding the problem, is that if he made this imo entirely necessary and sensible announcement he would get slaughtered as fitting policy to his own situation. So that if nothing else probably means we are stuck with the Aug date.

    Hope your daughter is recovered btw.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    Scott_xP said:

    I can go to a nightclub tonight if I want. I can gather with more than 6 in my home tonight if I want, many shops will no longer require me to wear a mask, and it won't be illegal not to.

    None of which makes you more free from Covid than you were yesterday
    Oh feck off - you are clearly not interested in being rational. But then I should have realised that. If you cannot see that the changes in England today (and different ones in Scotland) are freer then you really are just blind to reality.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,891

    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?

    What's your source for this. If it's the Telegraph they've reported it about 5 times already. There's a severe antivax movement within that paper and the way they're reporting it has deliberately conflated a decision that has not been taken with an actual negative decision in the past. Nothing has boiled my piss more than Telegraph reporting this pandemic, it's particularly infuriating as you know it's Boris' paper of choice so he probably* just reads that and thinks the JCVI has decided against vaxxing teenagers.

    * Probably doesn't, but well this is Boris.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    TOPPING said:

    With reference to @DougSeal pointing out that a "cohesive alternative" to the liar is needed, tomorrow could be a pivotal day.

    Labour's NEC are meeting and on the agenda is the mass expulsion of the anti-semites and revolutionary marxists. Already the likes of Laura Pillock are ranting about it on Twitter, they know that if passed the Labour Party takes a big step towards electability which is why she is so against it.

    My "kick them out" argument upsets a few people arguing that Starmer should appease, but he's tried that and appears to have realised that appeasement only encourages them.

    Would you consider rejoining a cleansed Lab party?
    1. I've moved on. I realised my politics and theirs had been diverging for a while, and my brief flirt with Corbyn was a result of me desperately trying to find some kind of change to keep me onboard. I didn't actually support Corbyn, I did support changing the narrative
    2. Enjoying my LibDem membership. I think we can do something up here in Aberdeenshire. What there is of a local Labour Party appears to be suffering from foaming dog fever
    2. Even if I did want to rejoin I am only 1 year into my 5 year ban :)
    Moved on 😂😂😂😂

    You’re more than a trifle obsessive. I wouldn’t have even known that you were a member of the Lib Dem’s has you not said.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    Scott_xP said:

    I can go to a nightclub tonight if I want. I can gather with more than 6 in my home tonight if I want, many shops will no longer require me to wear a mask, and it won't be illegal not to.

    None of which makes you more free from Covid than you were yesterday
    Where in the world is free of covid? Australia? Where half the country is in lockdown? What is it that you want? Just to scream into the wind?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    With reference to @DougSeal pointing out that a "cohesive alternative" to the liar is needed, tomorrow could be a pivotal day.

    Labour's NEC are meeting and on the agenda is the mass expulsion of the anti-semites and revolutionary marxists. Already the likes of Laura Pillock are ranting about it on Twitter, they know that if passed the Labour Party takes a big step towards electability which is why she is so against it.

    My "kick them out" argument upsets a few people arguing that Starmer should appease, but he's tried that and appears to have realised that appeasement only encourages them.

    Would you consider rejoining a cleansed Lab party?
    1. I've moved on. I realised my politics and theirs had been diverging for a while, and my brief flirt with Corbyn was a result of me desperately trying to find some kind of change to keep me onboard. I didn't actually support Corbyn, I did support changing the narrative
    2. Enjoying my LibDem membership. I think we can do something up here in Aberdeenshire. What there is of a local Labour Party appears to be suffering from foaming dog fever
    2. Even if I did want to rejoin I am only 1 year into my 5 year ban :)
    Ah oh wow didn't realise you had a ban. But surely that is from the previous administration. A letter to SKS might put everything right.

    But yes - I hear your reasons. 'Cept doing well in Aberdeenshire is hardly recompense for forming a national govt...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    BigRich said:

    What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it

    Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
    Citation
    How about all the people crying havoc about Boris removing all legal restrictions, something no other nation in Europe has done?
    rcs1000 said:

    What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it

    Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
    I don't think that's true - I think Denmark is more open than the UK.
    Debateable as it stands, but 100% definitely not the case as of midnight.

    In Denmark you can't enter a gym, or attend any organised indoor sport events without a Corona Passport. In the UK you've been able to attend a gym without a Covid passport.

    In Denmark you need a Corona Passport to enter restraurants, cafes and bars. You don't in the UK. In Denmark all restaraunts, cafes and bars much close no later than 2am.

    In Denmark for massages, haircuts and tattoos etc you must present a Covid Passport. You don't in the UK.

    In Denmark you can't enter a museum, amusement park, cinema, venues, zoos, stadiums or other sport venues without a corona passport. You can in the UK.

    In Denmark all discos and nightclubs are closed, they will be open tonight in the UK.

    In Denmark its illegal to have indoor events and activities of more than 250 people, all such restrictions are being abolished in the UK.

    In Denmark a face mask is legally required on public transport. Its not in the UK from tomorrow.

    https://en.coronasmitte.dk/rules-and-regulations
    from Midnight, we will have less restrictions that Sweden.

    https://www.visitstockholm.com/travel-info/coronavirus-covid-19-information-visitors

    Taking of which, Sweden now seems to be the only EU member not having a 3rd wave, (cases staying at 200-250 a day)

    Perhaps, that's just luck and it will start to rise next week, or maybe that's because lots of young people including under 18s had it asymptomatically in the earlier wayvs and therefor have a level of antibody/T Cell immunity, which in conjunction with the Vaccines in the Old and middle-aged.

    Anybody else with 17 months hindsight wish we had taken the Swedish approach?
    In order to understand “the Swedish approach” you have to understand a bit about Swedish culture. England could never have adopted the Swedish approach, because England (and most of RoW) lacks lots of unusual characteristics of Swedish society.

    The first and most important thing that you must learn about Sweden is the heavy bias towards the young. Swedes have a disregard for the upper middle aged and elderly that most other cultures would find utterly shocking. The elderly are *not* regarded as a reservoir of wisdom, automatically deserving respect, even veneration, as in most world cultures. It is not that Swedes dislike older people, it is just that we don’t see them as a group deserving special status. This underlies *everything* about Swedish society, and is probably the reason most foreigners find it difficult to get a grasp on us. They realise we are different, perhaps even odd, but they can’t quite put their finger on it.

    Allied to this phenomenon, children and young adults are very highly valued and resources are heavily invested in their welfare and wellbeing.

    Further, “the family”, while important, is not the be all and end all of societal structure. And levels of faith are very low by international standards (Scotland and Sweden were the first two countries to consistently measure atheists/agnostics to be in a majority).

    Then we have other odd Swedish characteristics, like a strong distrust of melodrama, suspicion of eccentrics and contrarians, a near-unanimous trust in teamwork as a problem solving technique, and remarkable gender equality (feminism is not a characteristic of the left in Sweden; women, and most men, throughout all social groups and all income levels are fundamentalist feminists in a way astonishing to most other cultures). Huge trust in technology, very low population density, small households in low density housing, many single households, very high minimum housing standards, low levels of corruption, a willingness to pay high taxes, high trust in politicians and public bodies, a sane media, etc etc etc

    Combine this with an extraordinarily decentralised civil service and political structure, and you might begin to understand our Covid19 response.

    We didn’t panic. We acted as a team. We protected the long-term interests of our children and young adults.

    It’s not rocket science.

    For people interested in the topic, I can recommend this article, which includes a fascinating diagram of world cultures: look how Sweden is way up to the top right (very low resolution and hard to read: better resolution images are available):

    ‘Sweden, the extreme country’

    https://www.iffs.se/en/news/sweden-the-extreme-country/
    That's an interesting map.

    Interesting to note that GB is on that map considered closest to . . . Australia and New Zealand. Funny that!
    It is an fascinating map for sure. The WVS is an interesting dataset, I have used it in academic research. On a point of clarification though, it looks like we are closest to NZ but closer to Belgium, Switzerland and the US than Australia. Some interesting results in there more broadly... How come everyone has missed the obvious solution to the Northern Ireland problem - give it to Uruguay. As someone with experience of the raw data, I would point out that the variation in opinions within countries is far greater than across countries, and for instance the elderly in two countries often have views more similar to each other than to the young in their own countries. Still, the differences in country means are significant and interesting.
    I like that suggestion, the bigots of NI would probably be happier on issues like gay marriage, abortion etc in Uruguay than with Great Britain.

    Fair point technically that Belgium and Switzerland are a tad closer than Aus. I do wonder though if England, Scotland and Wales were listed separately how they'd appear.

    My guess is the English would move marginally towards Australia (marginally because Celts are only about 10% anyway) while the Scots would move closer to Europe.

    Would the Scots appear in the English bubble, the Protestant bubble or the Catholic bubble though? My guess much to the irritation probably of most Scots they'd probably be in the Protestant one is my guess.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    DougSeal said:

    How stupid is Katie Hopkins? I mean, I know she’s got a vile set of viewpoints, but she’s also practically bankrupt, got herself a sweet probably remunerative gig on Celebrity Big Brother Australia, but couldn’t keep her mouth shut for just 2 weeks.

    She answered the door to her quarantine room naked. No wonder they deported her.
    I hope the people affected are getting the support they need...
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    Scott_xP said:

    I can go to a nightclub tonight if I want. I can gather with more than 6 in my home tonight if I want, many shops will no longer require me to wear a mask, and it won't be illegal not to.

    None of which makes you more free from Covid than you were yesterday
    Where in the world is free of covid? Australia? Where half the country is in lockdown? What is it that you want? Just to scream into the wind?
    I doubt anywhere will be free of Covid for a long time to come
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,453
    edited July 2021
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?

    How many have refused to send little Jonny or little Jessica to school "just in case"?
    BBC News - Covid: Home-education numbers rise by 75%
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57255380
    More than 40,000 pupils were formally taken out of school in the UK between September 2020 and April 2021, compared with an average of 23,000 over the previous two years.

    So about 17,000 children.
    I wasn't been serious.

    I think it is risky policy for the government though. If there is some kid of well connected parents i can see some massive uproar, and many parents are obviously very protective of their kids and us humans already piss poor at evaluating risk.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    DougSeal said:

    How stupid is Katie Hopkins? I mean, I know she’s got a vile set of viewpoints, but she’s also practically bankrupt, got herself a sweet probably remunerative gig on Celebrity Big Brother Australia, but couldn’t keep her mouth shut for just 2 weeks.

    She answered the door to her quarantine room naked. No wonder they deported her.
    🤮🤮
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    edited July 2021

    tlg86 said:

    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?

    How many have refused to send little Jonny or little Jessica to school "just in case"?
    BBC News - Covid: Home-education numbers rise by 75%
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57255380
    "The number of children registering for home education in the UK rose by 75% in the first eight months of the current school year, according to BBC research."

    There is no such thing as "registering for home education" when the education is provided at home by parents.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    edited July 2021

    Quite a lot replacement items coming in my shopping delivery later apparently.

    Looks like the pingdemic is starting to hit on supplies?

    Only effects at Waitrose yesterday was my friendly till operator was working on a day off as people were isolating, and the deli counter was shut. No obvious food shortages. Yet.
    (Can't spell - edit needed!)
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283

    TOPPING said:

    Good Starmer questions. It stinks.

    Then again, 8% of me looks on this like the dedicated jet/first class/slum it in economy argument with the PM. I don't want the PM to have to rely on Speedy Boarding when he wants to attend a World Leaders' summit somewhere. Likewise, if he is fit and well and testing negative I want him available and doing his job.

    Perhaps that is 18%.

    I think that as far as Johnson is concerned this debacle over the last 48 hours all sends entirely the wrong message. We know that Johnson has had the virus and the whole UK strategy has been based on the principle that we cannot open up again until the population are either vaccinated or have anti-bodies through infection.

    Making Johnson self isolate sends the very simple message that we are never going to be able to go back to normal life. If having the best form of immunity going isn't enough then nothing ever will be.

    Johnson should have taken the opportunity to say that he was leading by example (please don't laugh at the back I know it is a ridiculous concept where he is concerned) and that there would no longer be any need to self isolate for those who are jabbed or can prove to have the antibodies.

    The message now is that we will never be free of these controls because they are following a zero case policy even if they don't announce it officially.
    Shame the government didn't "listen to me"* last week (and before) when I said (along with some others) that the requirement to self isolate for those who have been double jabbed is disproportionate.

    Meant in a metaphoric way!
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662

    DougSeal said:

    How stupid is Katie Hopkins? I mean, I know she’s got a vile set of viewpoints, but she’s also practically bankrupt, got herself a sweet probably remunerative gig on Celebrity Big Brother Australia, but couldn’t keep her mouth shut for just 2 weeks.

    She answered the door to her quarantine room naked. No wonder they deported her.
    I hope the people affected are getting the support they need...
    Test
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,453
    Pulpstar said:

    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?

    What's your source for this. If it's the Telegraph they've reported it about 5 times already. There's a severe antivax movement within that paper and the way they're reporting it has deliberately conflated a decision that has not been taken with an actual negative decision in the past. Nothing has boiled my piss more than Telegraph reporting this pandemic, it's particularly infuriating as you know it's Boris' paper of choice so he probably* just reads that and thinks the JCVI has decided against vaxxing teenagers.

    * Probably doesn't, but well this is Boris.
    BBC news....

    Vaccine Minister Nadhim Zahawi tells BBC Breakfast he has received the recommendations from the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation about whether to recommend vaccines for under-18s.

    He will make a statement to Parliament later, but he says the committee has recommended that children with medical conditions that make them vulnerable to Covid-19 should be vaccinated, along with those who live with clinically vulnerable people.

    And he also says they recommend that children close to their 18th birthday should have the vaccine.

    But Zahawi says that they are keeping under review whether or not to vaccinate healthy children aged 12 to 17.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    I can go to a nightclub tonight if I want. I can gather with more than 6 in my home tonight if I want, many shops will no longer require me to wear a mask, and it won't be illegal not to.

    None of which makes you more free from Covid than you were yesterday
    The idea is not to be free from Covid.

    We need to be free from restrictions.

    Covid is here to stay. Learn to live with it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?

    Friend of mine, three children oldest 13, planned to go to Malta. Who require jabs for everyone over 12. WTF do they do? (Actually they split up mother went with two younger children, father stayed with oldest). It's ridiculous. No idea whether we or Malta (and others?) should change our policy.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,283

    IanB2 said:

    That we are not having to bear some ludicrous speech from that twat in Downing Street is the only consolation from today’s fiasco.

    A typical ludicrous comment with the preempt of the attack on Boris before anything else...
    I take it that you are a big supporter of his claim that at no time yesterday did he go onto the dodge lockdown trial?
    No he obviously lied.. that's fair enough.. what I don't like is the preamble....
    With apologies for quoting the same comment twice.

    This here is why the government are still comfortably ahead in the polls. "Stop attacking Boris" says the commentator in response to Boris lying. So you check if the commentator thinks Boris is telling the truth. "no, he obviously lied".

    But you still support him. We have ended up with a polity where people support a Prime Minister who lies to their face because he thinks they are stupid - despite knowing that he is lying to them because he thinks they are stupid.

    Eugh, you lot attack Boris before anything else! You are so biased!
    Erm, we're pointing out that he is lying and treating people like fools.
    Yeah he does that. But he's winding you lot up so thats ok

    I don't get the mentality of people who dislike people calling the PM Liar because he is a liar, yet recognise that he is lying to them.
    Feel free to keep calling him Liar - I know you like to. Personally I think he is from a long line of liars. Political standards have definitely slipped. It used to be that a politician would do almost anything to avoid telling a direct lie, pace Michael Howard (?), but now, as chronicled by Peter Oborne in 'The Rise of Political Lying', no such efforts are deemed needed. If a lie is exposed, it was merely mispoken, or taken out of context or whatever.
    To spread it a round a bit, the previous Labour leader was certainly no stranger with deceit, as his repeated issues around Jews showed.
    Its sad that it has come to this. Its almost priced in now, hence Johnson's seeming defying of gravity in the polls.
    I also sense that Starmer is less likely to do it, although he has a nasty habit of trying to skewer the PM on a detail, and not always being wholly correct.
    I am not convinced by this argument, i.e. they are all at it. Johnson takes it to another level. It is a reason why this particular traditional Conservative will not vote Conservative again (let along re-join the party) until he is gone. That is a paradox, because the latter means that with others like me holding the same view, the party continues to have a greater percentage of swivel-eyed nutjobs, but there we are!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Big call by JVCI / government not to vaccinate kids, going against what many western countries....herd immunity for kids.

    I wonder how this will go down with parents?

    How many have refused to send little Jonny or little Jessica to school "just in case"?
    BBC News - Covid: Home-education numbers rise by 75%
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57255380
    More than 40,000 pupils were formally taken out of school in the UK between September 2020 and April 2021, compared with an average of 23,000 over the previous two years.

    So about 17,000 children.
    I wasn't been serious.

    I think it is risky policy for the government though. If there is some kid of well connected parents i can see some massive uproar, and many parents are obviously very protective of their kids and us humans already piss poor at evaluating risk.
    But isn't the point that COVID is very unlikely to cause serious harm to children? As good as the vaccines are, I can see why it's not an obvious slam dunk to start jabbing kids.
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