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Suddenly pinging it becomes the main COVID story – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited July 16 in General
imageSuddenly pinging it becomes the main COVID story – politicalbetting.com

Quite what ministers do about this one is hard to say but when one of the main mechanisms in controlling the virus is being deleted off their phones by users then there is a serious issue.

Read the full story here

«1345678

Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,784
    edited July 16
    First. FPT:-

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I've always been a big supporter of devolution within England so was interested in the Prime Minister's comments today.

    I'm not wholly sure what a "County Deal" is and it doesn't seem the Prime Minister is either. Surrey and Hampshire are not London and expecting Tim Oliver to take over "transport" beyond local buses and cycling seems curious. Are we suggesting for example the County Councils take over South Western Railway? To be fair, they could only do a better job.

    There's no mention of proper devolution such as ending capping and allowing Councils to set whatever Council Tax they consider justified for service provision. There's no mention (no surprise) of handing planning control back to elected local councillors (might be good if you wanted to stop the drift of disillusioned Conservatives to the LDs) and, more important, no mention of moving powers to local authorities and providing adequate resources (public health being one example).

    The problem with County Councils is so much of their funding is taken up by the provision of care to adults and children - until and unless we see a resolution to the provision and funding of adult social care in particular (those the cost of provision of care to vulnerable children is another big drain on resources), the financial question is going to bedevil progress in other areas.

    It also seems the Government has backed away from any talk of ending two-tier local Government and this will be another issue - again, back to Surrey where the Conservative-run County Council faces eleven Districts and Boroughs, many of whom are now run by anti-Conservative groupings. Seeking a common approach to devolution is almost impossible in such a dislocated political environment.

    Yes, Runnymede, Surrey Heath, Reigate & Banstead and Woking (minority) are Conservative led out of the 11 Ds&Bs in Surrey. I completely agree that the possibility of even a basic accommodation with the County is near zero.
    The Tories now only need to lose 5 seats to lose control of Surrey CC too, Surrey is now full of Tory-LD marginals like Esher and Walton and Guildford and Surrey SW, it is no longer the ultra safe Tory county of the Major years that stayed true blue as other areas fell to Blair and Ashdown.

    By contrast here in Essex, which used to be classic marginal territory with lots of seats won by New Labour, every seat is Tory held and most with big majorities and at county council level the Tories have a large majority of 31 now
    Not quite, Cons 47 others 34 so seven seats! But point taken...though don't forget that Guildford had a LibDem MP until 2010 and Jeremy Hunt only held Surrey SW by three figures in 2005. E&W had an over 20,000 majority just 4 years ago in 2017 and the LibDems did not do well in the May elections albeit they captured Cobham in a by-election last week.
    Wiki now has Surrey Cons 45 Others 36
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_County_Council

    Guildford it is true had a LD MP for 1 term but that is the only seat the Tories have lost in the county before. At the next election it is conceivable Surrey SW, Esher and Walton, Woking as well as Guildford could all go yellow as they are all in the top 50 LD target seats.

    By contrast here in Essex seats like Harlow and Clacton and Harwich and Thurrock which Blair won are not even in the top 100 Labour target seats or Colchester which was LD is not in the top 50 LD targets either.

    In 2019 the Tories got 64% in Essex but only 53% in Surrey
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    One of the curiosities is that there's such a strong East-West gradient on the political map. The places where UKIP/BXP/New Model Tories have done really well tend to be along the East Coast. The further west you go, in general, with exceptions, the less the appeal.

    (Look, say at where the really dark blue splodges are on this map;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election)

    Are there any good theories about what's going on?
    Yes. George Osborne. Austerity. Government cut funding to councils; councils made cuts; people blamed the Labour councils, and the EU and everyone except the government; voted UKIP then Leave then Tory.

    Btw you mangled your link by not leaving a space before the closing bracket:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Compare the dark blue areas on that map with the red (high austerity) areas on the map here:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

    And this is where I used to say Cameron and Osborne caused Brexit and ended their own careers with their gerrymandering (whose side-effect was disenfranchising pro-Remain voters) and austerity. However, now PB Tories might say, ah, but there is a God and the end result was Conservative hegemony under the great Boris!

    This is what Dominic Cummings saw, hence the levelling up agenda which as we know from Boris's speech yesterday, is, well, who can tell?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,784
    On-topic, several PBers smarter than me predicted this would happen. There is iirc some mention of it on the last thread.

    As OGH says in the header, HMG should asap ease the self-isolation requirement, or release the new, less sensitive version of the app that it is said to be working on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,273
    Good thread about the latest study of the Delta variant.
    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1415672461111271424

    Basically it’s more infectious than other variants as those infected shed virus earlier, and shed up to 1000x more of it.
    It doesn’t seem to be significantly more or less dangerous than the other variants to those infected, though.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,978
    "Online fraud will turn toxic for the Tories
    The police and government are perceived as having lost control of digital crime, providing fertile ground for Starmer
    James Forsyth" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/online-fraud-will-turn-toxic-for-the-tories-9bl0s3rqq
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,273
    TSMC in ‘Due Diligence’ on Possibility of Japan Fab
    https://www.eetimes.com/tsmc-in-due-diligence-on-possibility-of-japan-fab/#
    … The geopolitical developments that have prompted TSMC to expand its global manufacturing outside Taiwan are continuing, according to Chairman Liu. He had supportive words for the new administration of US President Joe Biden.

    “In the new administration from the US, I think the development is more predictable, more rule-based. I think it’s better for every company to adapt to.”

    TSMC’s global manufacturing may adjust for customers in various countries to address needs for improved infrastructure and supply security, Liu said.

    “It is the customer’s needs that we are adjusting to, based on greater geopolitical developments,” he said.…


    Keeping their most advanced tech in Taiwan, though.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,810
    Nigelb said:

    Good thread about the latest study of the Delta variant.
    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1415672461111271424

    Basically it’s more infectious than other variants as those infected shed virus earlier, and shed up to 1000x more of it.
    It doesn’t seem to be significantly more or less dangerous than the other variants to those infected, though.

    If you had to pick a variant it would surely be this one? As long as it can out-compete any new, more-deadly variant.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,784
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Good thread about the latest study of the Delta variant.
    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1415672461111271424

    Basically it’s more infectious than other variants as those infected shed virus earlier, and shed up to 1000x more of it.
    It doesn’t seem to be significantly more or less dangerous than the other variants to those infected, though.

    If you had to pick a variant it would surely be this one? As long as it can out-compete any new, more-deadly variant.
    Up to a point, Lord Copper, and that point is that the NHS does seem to be in danger again with ITU beds being filled, even if death rates are well down. There has been some discussion on here but I've not seen it being picked up. Even if current capacity problems are limited to a few trusts, things may get worse over winter if flu returns.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited July 16
    I deleted the App 24 hours after installing it last year. I could see what was coming.

    Now that we have vaccines, testing is a waste of time. We don't test people for flu.

    We need to snap out of this fear-laden doom-mongered mindset. And live.

    I know this bit is controversial, but if I've caught covid I shan't inform anyone. I'll wear a mask out and about including at the shops and that's it.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Good thread about the latest study of the Delta variant.
    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1415672461111271424

    Basically it’s more infectious than other variants as those infected shed virus earlier, and shed up to 1000x more of it.
    It doesn’t seem to be significantly more or less dangerous than the other variants to those infected, though.

    I more-deadly variant.
    None of them are 'deadly' if you have been vaccinated.

    The only vaccinated people who will die from this are those with other serious health conditions.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,810

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Good thread about the latest study of the Delta variant.
    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1415672461111271424

    Basically it’s more infectious than other variants as those infected shed virus earlier, and shed up to 1000x more of it.
    It doesn’t seem to be significantly more or less dangerous than the other variants to those infected, though.

    I more-deadly variant.
    None of them are 'deadly' if you have been vaccinated.

    The only vaccinated people who will die from this are those with other serious health conditions.
    Perhaps quoting me in full would reveal what I actually meant. I said any new, more-deadly variant, implying one that hasn't actually mutated yet.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited July 16
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Good thread about the latest study of the Delta variant.
    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1415672461111271424

    Basically it’s more infectious than other variants as those infected shed virus earlier, and shed up to 1000x more of it.
    It doesn’t seem to be significantly more or less dangerous than the other variants to those infected, though.

    I more-deadly variant.
    None of them are 'deadly' if you have been vaccinated.

    The only vaccinated people who will die from this are those with other serious health conditions.
    Perhaps quoting me in full would reveal what I actually meant. I said any new, more-deadly variant, implying one that hasn't actually mutated yet.
    No I'm happy with what I quoted. You wrote 'more deadly' implying that all of them are deadly.

    If you're healthy and have been double-vaccinated none of them are 'deadly'.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,810

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Good thread about the latest study of the Delta variant.
    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1415672461111271424

    Basically it’s more infectious than other variants as those infected shed virus earlier, and shed up to 1000x more of it.
    It doesn’t seem to be significantly more or less dangerous than the other variants to those infected, though.

    I more-deadly variant.
    None of them are 'deadly' if you have been vaccinated.

    The only vaccinated people who will die from this are those with other serious health conditions.
    Perhaps quoting me in full would reveal what I actually meant. I said any new, more-deadly variant, implying one that hasn't actually mutated yet.
    No I'm happy with what I quoted. You wrote 'more deadly' implying that all of them are deadly.

    If you're healthy and have been double-vaccinated none of them are 'deadly'.
    That doesn’t imply anything of the sort. Something that is even marginally deadly is more deadly than something that isn’t deadly at all.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    Rob we need to snap out of this negative mindset.

    There's nothing at all deadly about this if you've been vaccinated. The word is inappropriate to use.

    Live.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,810
    edited July 16

    Rob we need to snap out of this negative mindset.

    There's nothing at all deadly about this if you've been vaccinated. The word is inappropriate to use.

    Live.

    No, it was not in appropriate to use because it was central to my point. I think it is preferable to have the current variant, rather than a new one that is more deadly.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,876
    Delete app.
    Use phone's camera mode and wave the phone over the QR code at a venue.

    Job done.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,876

    First. FPT:-

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I've always been a big supporter of devolution within England so was interested in the Prime Minister's comments today.

    I'm not wholly sure what a "County Deal" is and it doesn't seem the Prime Minister is either. Surrey and Hampshire are not London and expecting Tim Oliver to take over "transport" beyond local buses and cycling seems curious. Are we suggesting for example the County Councils take over South Western Railway? To be fair, they could only do a better job.

    There's no mention of proper devolution such as ending capping and allowing Councils to set whatever Council Tax they consider justified for service provision. There's no mention (no surprise) of handing planning control back to elected local councillors (might be good if you wanted to stop the drift of disillusioned Conservatives to the LDs) and, more important, no mention of moving powers to local authorities and providing adequate resources (public health being one example).

    The problem with County Councils is so much of their funding is taken up by the provision of care to adults and children - until and unless we see a resolution to the provision and funding of adult social care in particular (those the cost of provision of care to vulnerable children is another big drain on resources), the financial question is going to bedevil progress in other areas.

    It also seems the Government has backed away from any talk of ending two-tier local Government and this will be another issue - again, back to Surrey where the Conservative-run County Council faces eleven Districts and Boroughs, many of whom are now run by anti-Conservative groupings. Seeking a common approach to devolution is almost impossible in such a dislocated political environment.

    Yes, Runnymede, Surrey Heath, Reigate & Banstead and Woking (minority) are Conservative led out of the 11 Ds&Bs in Surrey. I completely agree that the possibility of even a basic accommodation with the County is near zero.
    The Tories now only need to lose 5 seats to lose control of Surrey CC too, Surrey is now full of Tory-LD marginals like Esher and Walton and Guildford and Surrey SW, it is no longer the ultra safe Tory county of the Major years that stayed true blue as other areas fell to Blair and Ashdown.

    By contrast here in Essex, which used to be classic marginal territory with lots of seats won by New Labour, every seat is Tory held and most with big majorities and at county council level the Tories have a large majority of 31 now
    Not quite, Cons 47 others 34 so seven seats! But point taken...though don't forget that Guildford had a LibDem MP until 2010 and Jeremy Hunt only held Surrey SW by three figures in 2005. E&W had an over 20,000 majority just 4 years ago in 2017 and the LibDems did not do well in the May elections albeit they captured Cobham in a by-election last week.
    Wiki now has Surrey Cons 45 Others 36
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_County_Council

    Guildford it is true had a LD MP for 1 term but that is the only seat the Tories have lost in the county before. At the next election it is conceivable Surrey SW, Esher and Walton, Woking as well as Guildford could all go yellow as they are all in the top 50 LD target seats.

    By contrast here in Essex seats like Harlow and Clacton and Harwich and Thurrock which Blair won are not even in the top 100 Labour target seats or Colchester which was LD is not in the top 50 LD targets either.

    In 2019 the Tories got 64% in Essex but only 53% in Surrey
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    One of the curiosities is that there's such a strong East-West gradient on the political map. The places where UKIP/BXP/New Model Tories have done really well tend to be along the East Coast. The further west you go, in general, with exceptions, the less the appeal.

    (Look, say at where the really dark blue splodges are on this map;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election)

    Are there any good theories about what's going on?
    Yes. George Osborne. Austerity. Government cut funding to councils; councils made cuts; people blamed the Labour councils, and the EU and everyone except the government; voted UKIP then Leave then Tory.

    Btw you mangled your link by not leaving a space before the closing bracket:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Compare the dark blue areas on that map with the red (high austerity) areas on the map here:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

    And this is where I used to say Cameron and Osborne caused Brexit and ended their own careers with their gerrymandering (whose side-effect was disenfranchising pro-Remain voters) and austerity. However, now PB Tories might say, ah, but there is a God and the end result was Conservative hegemony under the great Boris!

    This is what Dominic Cummings saw, hence the levelling up agenda which as we know from Boris's speech yesterday, is, well, who can tell?
    That's a polite fiction lefties are telling themselves to convince themselves they have "won the argument".

    If blaming Councils were the issue then why haven't Tory Councils been blamed? Tories already had most Councillors nationwide.

    More significantly is surely that the country has full employment. With the Living Wage that Osborne introduced, full employment, and affordable houses people are able to afford their own homes and not rely upon Councils.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,330
    Good morning everyone.

    Not as bright as forecast. Still we had a very good day yesterday. Mrs C's birthday, so long visit from Eldest Granddaughter, who said, inter alia that she was really glad to be in her 30's; she felt dreadfully sorry for her teenage cousins going through the pandemic
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,394
    The Hundred launches - is it tomorrow? I haven’t been paying much attention.

    I’ll put George Dobell down as a ‘maybe:’

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/the-hundred-2021-with-friends-like-these-a-hundred-reasons-why-the-ecb-has-failed-the-game-1269911
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,315
    Off-topic:

    A mate started feeling ill in March of last year. He decided he had had Covid, and was suffering from long Covid. This went on until recently, when a doctor ordered tests that eventually revealed that he had a rare stage-4 cancer.

    He's a few years younger than me, with a family. He says that if it had not been for Covid, he would have got the symptoms checked out much earlier.

    The health effects of Covid are going to last a long time, even for many of those who never got Covid...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,394

    Delete app.
    Use phone's camera mode and wave the phone over the QR code at a venue.

    Job done.

    Tbh, I can’t remember when I was last asked for my contact details at a venue.

    Must have been some time ago.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,784
    edited July 16

    First. FPT:-

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I've always been a big supporter of devolution within England so was interested in the Prime Minister's comments today.

    I'm not wholly sure what a "County Deal" is and it doesn't seem the Prime Minister is either. Surrey and Hampshire are not London and expecting Tim Oliver to take over "transport" beyond local buses and cycling seems curious. Are we suggesting for example the County Councils take over South Western Railway? To be fair, they could only do a better job.

    There's no mention of proper devolution such as ending capping and allowing Councils to set whatever Council Tax they consider justified for service provision. There's no mention (no surprise) of handing planning control back to elected local councillors (might be good if you wanted to stop the drift of disillusioned Conservatives to the LDs) and, more important, no mention of moving powers to local authorities and providing adequate resources (public health being one example).

    The problem with County Councils is so much of their funding is taken up by the provision of care to adults and children - until and unless we see a resolution to the provision and funding of adult social care in particular (those the cost of provision of care to vulnerable children is another big drain on resources), the financial question is going to bedevil progress in other areas.

    It also seems the Government has backed away from any talk of ending two-tier local Government and this will be another issue - again, back to Surrey where the Conservative-run County Council faces eleven Districts and Boroughs, many of whom are now run by anti-Conservative groupings. Seeking a common approach to devolution is almost impossible in such a dislocated political environment.

    Yes, Runnymede, Surrey Heath, Reigate & Banstead and Woking (minority) are Conservative led out of the 11 Ds&Bs in Surrey. I completely agree that the possibility of even a basic accommodation with the County is near zero.
    The Tories now only need to lose 5 seats to lose control of Surrey CC too, Surrey is now full of Tory-LD marginals like Esher and Walton and Guildford and Surrey SW, it is no longer the ultra safe Tory county of the Major years that stayed true blue as other areas fell to Blair and Ashdown.

    By contrast here in Essex, which used to be classic marginal territory with lots of seats won by New Labour, every seat is Tory held and most with big majorities and at county council level the Tories have a large majority of 31 now
    Not quite, Cons 47 others 34 so seven seats! But point taken...though don't forget that Guildford had a LibDem MP until 2010 and Jeremy Hunt only held Surrey SW by three figures in 2005. E&W had an over 20,000 majority just 4 years ago in 2017 and the LibDems did not do well in the May elections albeit they captured Cobham in a by-election last week.
    Wiki now has Surrey Cons 45 Others 36
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_County_Council

    Guildford it is true had a LD MP for 1 term but that is the only seat the Tories have lost in the county before. At the next election it is conceivable Surrey SW, Esher and Walton, Woking as well as Guildford could all go yellow as they are all in the top 50 LD target seats.

    By contrast here in Essex seats like Harlow and Clacton and Harwich and Thurrock which Blair won are not even in the top 100 Labour target seats or Colchester which was LD is not in the top 50 LD targets either.

    In 2019 the Tories got 64% in Essex but only 53% in Surrey
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    One of the curiosities is that there's such a strong East-West gradient on the political map. The places where UKIP/BXP/New Model Tories have done really well tend to be along the East Coast. The further west you go, in general, with exceptions, the less the appeal.

    (Look, say at where the really dark blue splodges are on this map;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election)

    Are there any good theories about what's going on?
    Yes. George Osborne. Austerity. Government cut funding to councils; councils made cuts; people blamed the Labour councils, and the EU and everyone except the government; voted UKIP then Leave then Tory.

    Btw you mangled your link by not leaving a space before the closing bracket:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Compare the dark blue areas on that map with the red (high austerity) areas on the map here:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

    And this is where I used to say Cameron and Osborne caused Brexit and ended their own careers with their gerrymandering (whose side-effect was disenfranchising pro-Remain voters) and austerity. However, now PB Tories might say, ah, but there is a God and the end result was Conservative hegemony under the great Boris!

    This is what Dominic Cummings saw, hence the levelling up agenda which as we know from Boris's speech yesterday, is, well, who can tell?
    That's a polite fiction lefties are telling themselves to convince themselves they have "won the argument".

    If blaming Councils were the issue then why haven't Tory Councils been blamed? Tories already had most Councillors nationwide.

    More significantly is surely that the country has full employment. With the Living Wage that Osborne introduced, full employment, and affordable houses people are able to afford their own homes and not rely upon Councils.
    People blamed Labour councils because they had Labour councils. You think people voted UKIP out of gratitude to George Osborne? You have misunderstood and/or not properly engaged with the argument.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,495
    "On a personal level I know of several people I have regular dealings with who have had to self isolate because they were pinged even though they have been double jabbed."

    And why not? AstraZeneca is estimated to have only about 60% efficacy against symptomatic infection, where the Delta variant is concerned. Its efficacy against asymptomatic infection is expected to be lower. The "double jabbed" can still get the disease and pass on the disease.

    Whatever anyone thinks the best strategy is for dealing with this, please let's not mislead anyone into thinking otherwise.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,706
    edited July 16
    Does anyone know if Waterstones are insisting on wearing a mask in their shop from Monday or just "encouraging it". I have been putting off going in until I dont have to wear a mask but dont want to get involved in any lecture or eggng on to wear a mask if I do. Otherwise will jut order from amazon. I will not be wearing a mask from Monday so if a shop challenges me i wont shop there
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,330
    ydoethur said:

    Delete app.
    Use phone's camera mode and wave the phone over the QR code at a venue.

    Job done.

    Tbh, I can’t remember when I was last asked for my contact details at a venue.

    Must have been some time ago.
    Went out to lunch yesterday at a local pub ...... well about 15 minutes away ...... doesn't count as local round here. Admittedly we'd booked, so they know my email, but no sign of any QR code poster. And while they can identify me, Eldest Granddaughter was a completely random visitor.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,784

    Does anyone know if Waterstones are insisting on wearing a mask in their shop from Monday or just "encouraging it". I have been putting off going in until I dont have to wear a mask but dont want to get involved in any lecture or eggng on to wear a mask if I do. Otherwise will jut order from amazon. I will not be wearing a mask from Monday so if a shop challenges me i wont shop there

    Will Amazon workers be required to wear masks? Are they now?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,706
    edited July 16

    Does anyone know if Waterstones are insisting on wearing a mask in their shop from Monday or just "encouraging it". I have been putting off going in until I dont have to wear a mask but dont want to get involved in any lecture or eggng on to wear a mask if I do. Otherwise will jut order from amazon. I will not be wearing a mask from Monday so if a shop challenges me i wont shop there

    Will Amazon workers be required to wear masks? Are they now?
    I dont know - hope not but i am not an amazon worker , I could be a potential Waterstones customer though on Monday if they drop their virtue signalling about masks
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,282
    ydoethur said:

    Delete app.
    Use phone's camera mode and wave the phone over the QR code at a venue.

    Job done.

    Tbh, I can’t remember when I was last asked for my contact details at a venue.

    Must have been some time ago.
    I have never had the app. Have been asked to check in all of once having been into licensed premises 4 times in total since Covid began.

    I do have to laugh though at the mentality that we have to 'break the doom cycle' or whatever. Pox will Go Away if we think positive thoughts. meanwhile, as we have some hospitals being overrun, they're having to instruct their staff to delete the app because whether they have come into contact with Covid or not, if so many staff have to isolate then people are going to die.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,170
    Re header, being pinged by the T&T APP post 19 July carries no legal compulsion does it?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,706
    edited July 16
    Chris said:

    "On a personal level I know of several people I have regular dealings with who have had to self isolate because they were pinged even though they have been double jabbed."

    And why not? AstraZeneca is estimated to have only about 60% efficacy against symptomatic infection, where the Delta variant is concerned. Its efficacy against asymptomatic infection is expected to be lower. The "double jabbed" can still get the disease and pass on the disease.

    Whatever anyone thinks the best strategy is for dealing with this, please let's not mislead anyone into thinking otherwise.

    This disease is causing about 1% of current deaths even though it is widespread. It really isnt something to obsess about to the point of mask wearing , house imprisonment for the crime of being near somebody who may have it etc etc .99% of current deaths are caused by something other than covid- why is 99% (it seems) of government dictaks , media news about covid?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,954

    Does anyone know if Waterstones are insisting on wearing a mask in their shop from Monday or just "encouraging it". I have been putting off going in until I dont have to wear a mask but dont want to get involved in any lecture or eggng on to wear a mask if I do. Otherwise will jut order from amazon. I will not be wearing a mask from Monday so if a shop challenges me i wont shop there

    Will Amazon workers be required to wear masks? Are they now?
    I dont know - hope not but i am not an amazon worker , I could be a potential Waterstones customer though on Monday if they drop their virtue signalling about masks
    Round here a cafe announced last week it was shutting indoors “due to rising case numbers and in advance of the stepping up of government restrictions”.

    What hope do we all have if a mentality like this persists?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,394
    Stocky said:

    Re header, being pinged by the T&T APP post 19 July carries no legal compulsion does it?

    Isolation rules aren’t relaxed until the 16th August.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,170
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Re header, being pinged by the T&T APP post 19 July carries no legal compulsion does it?

    Isolation rules aren’t relaxed until the 16th August.
    Just guidance between 19 July and 16 August though isn't it?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,282

    Chris said:

    "On a personal level I know of several people I have regular dealings with who have had to self isolate because they were pinged even though they have been double jabbed."

    And why not? AstraZeneca is estimated to have only about 60% efficacy against symptomatic infection, where the Delta variant is concerned. Its efficacy against asymptomatic infection is expected to be lower. The "double jabbed" can still get the disease and pass on the disease.

    Whatever anyone thinks the best strategy is for dealing with this, please let's not mislead anyone into thinking otherwise.

    This disease is causing about 1% of current deaths even though it is widespread. It really isnt something to obsess about to the point of mask wearing , house imprisonment for the crime of being near somebody who may have it etc etc .99% of current deaths are caused by something other than covid- why is 99% (it seems) of government dictaks , media news about covid?
    Because we have a runaway infection rate way higher than the rest of the world and have many hospitals unable to cope?

    You and others are fed up - we all are. But you've decided that the best way to be clear of Covid is to wish it out of existence. The majority think you are crazy. When you find that you are in the minority tomorrow with most people still "virtue signalling" is going to wind you up?

    "Who are these idiots?" you will think about each other.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,282
    moonshine said:

    Does anyone know if Waterstones are insisting on wearing a mask in their shop from Monday or just "encouraging it". I have been putting off going in until I dont have to wear a mask but dont want to get involved in any lecture or eggng on to wear a mask if I do. Otherwise will jut order from amazon. I will not be wearing a mask from Monday so if a shop challenges me i wont shop there

    Will Amazon workers be required to wear masks? Are they now?
    I dont know - hope not but i am not an amazon worker , I could be a potential Waterstones customer though on Monday if they drop their virtue signalling about masks
    Round here a cafe announced last week it was shutting indoors “due to rising case numbers and in advance of the stepping up of government restrictions”.

    What hope do we all have if a mentality like this persists?
    Yes, our village chippy had to shut for a while due to the poor mentality of the owner. What happened was that most of the staff were exposed to Covid - which as we know is perfectly safe now - and decided that she wouldn't make them work and interact with the public and hand Covid and chips out.

    What hope do we have with these selfish virtue signalling do-gooders refusing to join in the "There is no Covid" groupthink?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,170

    Chris said:

    "On a personal level I know of several people I have regular dealings with who have had to self isolate because they were pinged even though they have been double jabbed."

    And why not? AstraZeneca is estimated to have only about 60% efficacy against symptomatic infection, where the Delta variant is concerned. Its efficacy against asymptomatic infection is expected to be lower. The "double jabbed" can still get the disease and pass on the disease.

    Whatever anyone thinks the best strategy is for dealing with this, please let's not mislead anyone into thinking otherwise.

    This disease is causing about 1% of current deaths even though it is widespread. It really isnt something to obsess about to the point of mask wearing , house imprisonment for the crime of being near somebody who may have it etc etc .99% of current deaths are caused by something other than covid- why is 99% (it seems) of government dictaks , media news about covid?
    The 1% is seen as preventable (and ammunition to matter the government over) - that's the problem. If you think that these deaths are preventable and health (understood as quantity trumps quality) is all you care about then you will continue to want to restrict everybody's liberties, claiming the moral high ground as you do so.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,700
    Yes, on topic I had to cancel a weekend social meet because two of the people I was meeting just got pinged. The App is over-performing and people who are fully vaccinated are getting fed up with it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,700
    Stocky said:

    Re header, being pinged by the T&T APP post 19 July carries no legal compulsion does it?

    No, it's just advice - the legal obligation kicks in after a positive test
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,170

    moonshine said:

    Does anyone know if Waterstones are insisting on wearing a mask in their shop from Monday or just "encouraging it". I have been putting off going in until I dont have to wear a mask but dont want to get involved in any lecture or eggng on to wear a mask if I do. Otherwise will jut order from amazon. I will not be wearing a mask from Monday so if a shop challenges me i wont shop there

    Will Amazon workers be required to wear masks? Are they now?
    I dont know - hope not but i am not an amazon worker , I could be a potential Waterstones customer though on Monday if they drop their virtue signalling about masks
    Round here a cafe announced last week it was shutting indoors “due to rising case numbers and in advance of the stepping up of government restrictions”.

    What hope do we all have if a mentality like this persists?
    Yes, our village chippy had to shut for a while due to the poor mentality of the owner. What happened was that most of the staff were exposed to Covid - which as we know is perfectly safe now - and decided that she wouldn't make them work and interact with the public and hand Covid and chips out.

    What hope do we have with these selfish virtue signalling do-gooders refusing to join in the "There is no Covid" groupthink?
    Sorry but that post is not worthy of reply.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,170
    edited July 16
    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    Re header, being pinged by the T&T APP post 19 July carries no legal compulsion does it?

    No, it's just advice - the legal obligation kicks in after a positive test
    Are you sure? Are they introducing legislation for that?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,784

    Does anyone know if Waterstones are insisting on wearing a mask in their shop from Monday or just "encouraging it". I have been putting off going in until I dont have to wear a mask but dont want to get involved in any lecture or eggng on to wear a mask if I do. Otherwise will jut order from amazon. I will not be wearing a mask from Monday so if a shop challenges me i wont shop there

    Will Amazon workers be required to wear masks? Are they now?
    I dont know - hope not but i am not an amazon worker , I could be a potential Waterstones customer though on Monday if they drop their virtue signalling about masks
    Government guidance is not that masks are unnecessary in all circumstances. The government will continue, after Monday, to advise: Wearing a face covering where you come into contact with people you don’t normally meet in enclosed and crowded spaces.

    That is what The Saj told the Commons and what Boris told the press conference. Whether Waterstones fits that description, I could not say.

    That is the problem with the government's new cakeist position. It wants to lift restrictions and have them immediately reapplied by businesses. It just introduces uncertainty. The government's grand plan is not that Covid is over, but that they'd rather have a spike in the summer than in winter.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,315

    Chris said:

    "On a personal level I know of several people I have regular dealings with who have had to self isolate because they were pinged even though they have been double jabbed."

    And why not? AstraZeneca is estimated to have only about 60% efficacy against symptomatic infection, where the Delta variant is concerned. Its efficacy against asymptomatic infection is expected to be lower. The "double jabbed" can still get the disease and pass on the disease.

    Whatever anyone thinks the best strategy is for dealing with this, please let's not mislead anyone into thinking otherwise.

    This disease is causing about 1% of current deaths even though it is widespread. It really isnt something to obsess about to the point of mask wearing , house imprisonment for the crime of being near somebody who may have it etc etc .99% of current deaths are caused by something other than covid- why is 99% (it seems) of government dictaks , media news about covid?
    Because we have a runaway infection rate way higher than the rest of the world and have many hospitals unable to cope?

    You and others are fed up - we all are. But you've decided that the best way to be clear of Covid is to wish it out of existence. The majority think you are crazy. When you find that you are in the minority tomorrow with most people still "virtue signalling" is going to wind you up?

    "Who are these idiots?" you will think about each other.
    I don't think people have decided to wish it out of existence. They just think - for their personal levels of acceptable risk - that they'd rather live with the risk and get on with their lives.

    Even if you disagree with it, it's a reasonable view atm. An alternative is people fearing Covid so much that we never, ever, get out of the restrictions, even when the hospitalisations and deaths are near-zero.

    I'm happy for people to make their own choices at this stage - although the presence of people who cannot be vaccinated (as opposed to refuseniks - is something to be factored in. I'll still be wearing masks for a while, as I don't see it as much of an infringement of my liberties to do so. Others do.

    As an aside, a real tragedy of this crisis is that, whilst vaccinations have worked better than I hoped, therapeutics have not.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,310

    Rob we need to snap out of this negative mindset.

    There's nothing at all deadly about this if you've been vaccinated. The word is inappropriate to use.

    Live.

    Laugh!

    Love!
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,516
    Absolutely agree with this. I’m double jabbed and am tempted to delete the app now.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 98,200
    Looks like GB News viewers are in favour of the cancel culture, both viewers in fact.

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    The channel has now said the decision of Guto Harri to make the on-air gesture on Tuesday in solidarity against the racist abuse suffered by English players was “an unacceptable breach of our standards”.

    A GB News spokesperson declined to say whether Harri, a former spokesperson for Boris Johnson, was still with the channel.

    Business editor Liam Halligan and former Labour MP Gloria De Piero attracted no measurable audience to their show between 1pm and 1.30pm on Wednesday afternoon. During the same timeslot the BBC News channel attracted 62,000 viewers, while Sky News had 50,000 people watching.

    GB News’ audience again briefly dipped to zero at 5pm, during a late-afternoon programme co-hosted by ex-BBC presenter Simon McCoy and former Ukip spokesperson Alex Phillips.

    The figures were recorded the day after Harri’s move, which led to widespread fury on social media from GB News viewers who pledged to stop watching the recently launched rightwing current affairs channel, making accusations that it had sold out and gone “woke”, secretly harboured Marxist values, or was in favour of Black Lives Matter.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,282

    Chris said:

    "On a personal level I know of several people I have regular dealings with who have had to self isolate because they were pinged even though they have been double jabbed."

    And why not? AstraZeneca is estimated to have only about 60% efficacy against symptomatic infection, where the Delta variant is concerned. Its efficacy against asymptomatic infection is expected to be lower. The "double jabbed" can still get the disease and pass on the disease.

    Whatever anyone thinks the best strategy is for dealing with this, please let's not mislead anyone into thinking otherwise.

    This disease is causing about 1% of current deaths even though it is widespread. It really isnt something to obsess about to the point of mask wearing , house imprisonment for the crime of being near somebody who may have it etc etc .99% of current deaths are caused by something other than covid- why is 99% (it seems) of government dictaks , media news about covid?
    Because we have a runaway infection rate way higher than the rest of the world and have many hospitals unable to cope?

    You and others are fed up - we all are. But you've decided that the best way to be clear of Covid is to wish it out of existence. The majority think you are crazy. When you find that you are in the minority tomorrow with most people still "virtue signalling" is going to wind you up?

    "Who are these idiots?" you will think about each other.
    I don't think people have decided to wish it out of existence. They just think - for their personal levels of acceptable risk - that they'd rather live with the risk and get on with their lives.

    Even if you disagree with it, it's a reasonable view atm. An alternative is people fearing Covid so much that we never, ever, get out of the restrictions, even when the hospitalisations and deaths are near-zero.

    I'm happy for people to make their own choices at this stage - although the presence of people who cannot be vaccinated (as opposed to refuseniks - is something to be factored in. I'll still be wearing masks for a while, as I don't see it as much of an infringement of my liberties to do so. Others do.

    As an aside, a real tragedy of this crisis is that, whilst vaccinations have worked better than I hoped, therapeutics have not.
    I don't think you are I are very far apart. A measure of further unlocking tomorrow is an acknowledgement that people have already made their own decisions. Mask wearing - and social distancing where possible - remain obviously needed to stop it running away again and proper restrictions having to come back.

    The thing about personal liberty is that it isn't unilateral. I do not have the personal liberty to ask in a way that endangers others. Some people are now so obsessed by it that they have decided to redefine "endanger" to excuse their "fuck off" actions.

    They have quite literally wished it out of existence. Covid is no longer a threat, people exposed should go about their lives normally and if that means treating people on the intensive care ward whilst the rules we have all known throughout say you are infectious then whatever.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,446
    edited July 16
    Good morning

    I agree with this thread and to be honest unless something is done very quickly I can see many hundreds of thousands of people deleting the app

    I expect many of those pinged will ignore it

    This has been a terrible week for Boris and HMG with the racist attacks on our wonderful black footballers, his annihilation by Starmer at PMQ,s and now this

    I expect this to hit the poll rating of Boris and HMG hard, and deservedly so

    And yes, I am still a member of the party and actually have become a fan of Steve Baker
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 98,200
    On topic, I did fear this would happen, it will get worse for a few weeks.

    It is making people nervous and scared again.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,700
    R4 reporting the Chancellor will be able to avoid the triple-lock 8% by switching to a measure of "underlying earnings growth" which the ONS has helpfully fished out of a bottom drawer.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,516

    I deleted the App 24 hours after installing it last year. I could see what was coming.

    Now that we have vaccines, testing is a waste of time. We don't test people for flu.

    We need to snap out of this fear-laden doom-mongered mindset. And live.

    I know this bit is controversial, but if I've caught covid I shan't inform anyone. I'll wear a mask out and about including at the shops and that's it.

    Vaccines are either the way out of it or they aren’t. I’m double jabbed with the AZ variant. Vaccines have clearly broke the link between infection and hospitalisation/deaths so keep on vaccinating and lets get back to living.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,706
    Foxy said:

    Does anyone know if Waterstones are insisting on wearing a mask in their shop from Monday or just "encouraging it". I have been putting off going in until I dont have to wear a mask but dont want to get involved in any lecture or eggng on to wear a mask if I do. Otherwise will jut order from amazon. I will not be wearing a mask from Monday so if a shop challenges me i wont shop there

    Will Amazon workers be required to wear masks? Are they now?
    I dont know - hope not but i am not an amazon worker , I could be a potential Waterstones customer though on Monday if they drop their virtue signalling about masks
    I have browsed Waterstones every couple of weeks since they reopened. It is no hassle wearing a mask to do so. No need to be a big baby about it. The polling evidence is that shoppers are more likely to prefer shops with masked customers than avoid them.



    Well this customer does not prefer shops with masked customers and its my money. I will shop online
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,516
    IanB2 said:

    R4 reporting the Chancellor will be able to avoid the triple-lock 8% by switching to a measure of "underlying earnings growth" which the ONS has helpfully fished out of a bottom drawer.

    Did it say, out of interest, what that figure was likely to be ?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,282

    Looks like GB News viewers are in favour of the cancel culture, both viewers in fact.

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    The channel has now said the decision of Guto Harri to make the on-air gesture on Tuesday in solidarity against the racist abuse suffered by English players was “an unacceptable breach of our standards”.

    A GB News spokesperson declined to say whether Harri, a former spokesperson for Boris Johnson, was still with the channel.

    Business editor Liam Halligan and former Labour MP Gloria De Piero attracted no measurable audience to their show between 1pm and 1.30pm on Wednesday afternoon. During the same timeslot the BBC News channel attracted 62,000 viewers, while Sky News had 50,000 people watching.

    GB News’ audience again briefly dipped to zero at 5pm, during a late-afternoon programme co-hosted by ex-BBC presenter Simon McCoy and former Ukip spokesperson Alex Phillips.

    The figures were recorded the day after Harri’s move, which led to widespread fury on social media from GB News viewers who pledged to stop watching the recently launched rightwing current affairs channel, making accusations that it had sold out and gone “woke”, secretly harboured Marxist values, or was in favour of Black Lives Matter.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    The reaction to this has been instructive. They billed it as news free from bias, a safe haven from interfering management telling people what to think. Where decent respectable people could come for news.

    And then we have Guto "who?" Hari taking the knee and the whole place goes mental. HOW DARE HE etc etc. "An unacceptable breach of our standards" - what the hell are their standards then?

    As Novara Media have higher production values, perhaps the no surrender news channel should just launch onto the internet and Youtube and be done with it. Then they can safely interview the guy waving his cock about at the football and sympathetic interviews to the people who posted racist abuse at footballers without the risk of anything horrible happening like someone taking the knee.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,491

    First. FPT:-

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I've always been a big supporter of devolution within England so was interested in the Prime Minister's comments today.

    I'm not wholly sure what a "County Deal" is and it doesn't seem the Prime Minister is either. Surrey and Hampshire are not London and expecting Tim Oliver to take over "transport" beyond local buses and cycling seems curious. Are we suggesting for example the County Councils take over South Western Railway? To be fair, they could only do a better job.

    There's no mention of proper devolution such as ending capping and allowing Councils to set whatever Council Tax they consider justified for service provision. There's no mention (no surprise) of handing planning control back to elected local councillors (might be good if you wanted to stop the drift of disillusioned Conservatives to the LDs) and, more important, no mention of moving powers to local authorities and providing adequate resources (public health being one example).

    The problem with County Councils is so much of their funding is taken up by the provision of care to adults and children - until and unless we see a resolution to the provision and funding of adult social care in particular (those the cost of provision of care to vulnerable children is another big drain on resources), the financial question is going to bedevil progress in other areas.

    It also seems the Government has backed away from any talk of ending two-tier local Government and this will be another issue - again, back to Surrey where the Conservative-run County Council faces eleven Districts and Boroughs, many of whom are now run by anti-Conservative groupings. Seeking a common approach to devolution is almost impossible in such a dislocated political environment.

    Yes, Runnymede, Surrey Heath, Reigate & Banstead and Woking (minority) are Conservative led out of the 11 Ds&Bs in Surrey. I completely agree that the possibility of even a basic accommodation with the County is near zero.
    The Tories now only need to lose 5 seats to lose control of Surrey CC too, Surrey is now full of Tory-LD marginals like Esher and Walton and Guildford and Surrey SW, it is no longer the ultra safe Tory county of the Major years that stayed true blue as other areas fell to Blair and Ashdown.

    By contrast here in Essex, which used to be classic marginal territory with lots of seats won by New Labour, every seat is Tory held and most with big majorities and at county council level the Tories have a large majority of 31 now
    Not quite, Cons 47 others 34 so seven seats! But point taken...though don't forget that Guildford had a LibDem MP until 2010 and Jeremy Hunt only held Surrey SW by three figures in 2005. E&W had an over 20,000 majority just 4 years ago in 2017 and the LibDems did not do well in the May elections albeit they captured Cobham in a by-election last week.
    Wiki now has Surrey Cons 45 Others 36
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_County_Council

    Guildford it is true had a LD MP for 1 term but that is the only seat the Tories have lost in the county before. At the next election it is conceivable Surrey SW, Esher and Walton, Woking as well as Guildford could all go yellow as they are all in the top 50 LD target seats.

    By contrast here in Essex seats like Harlow and Clacton and Harwich and Thurrock which Blair won are not even in the top 100 Labour target seats or Colchester which was LD is not in the top 50 LD targets either.

    In 2019 the Tories got 64% in Essex but only 53% in Surrey
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    One of the curiosities is that there's such a strong East-West gradient on the political map. The places where UKIP/BXP/New Model Tories have done really well tend to be along the East Coast. The further west you go, in general, with exceptions, the less the appeal.

    (Look, say at where the really dark blue splodges are on this map;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election)

    Are there any good theories about what's going on?
    Yes. George Osborne. Austerity. Government cut funding to councils; councils made cuts; people blamed the Labour councils, and the EU and everyone except the government; voted UKIP then Leave then Tory.

    Btw you mangled your link by not leaving a space before the closing bracket:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Compare the dark blue areas on that map with the red (high austerity) areas on the map here:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

    And this is where I used to say Cameron and Osborne caused Brexit and ended their own careers with their gerrymandering (whose side-effect was disenfranchising pro-Remain voters) and austerity. However, now PB Tories might say, ah, but there is a God and the end result was Conservative hegemony under the great Boris!

    This is what Dominic Cummings saw, hence the levelling up agenda which as we know from Boris's speech yesterday, is, well, who can tell?
    That's a polite fiction lefties are telling themselves to convince themselves they have "won the argument".

    If blaming Councils were the issue then why haven't Tory Councils been blamed? Tories already had most Councillors nationwide.

    More significantly is surely that the country has full employment. With the Living Wage that Osborne introduced, full employment, and affordable houses people are able to afford their own homes and not rely upon Councils.
    George Osborne didn't introduce the living wage, he renamed the minimum wage which Conservatives opposed.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,086
    Is this tracking and pinging technology not used on phones in Germany, Spain, Italy France, or is this just British exceptionalism?

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,282

    Good morning

    I agree with this thread and to be honest unless something is done very quickly I can see many hundreds of thousands of people deleting the app

    I expect many of those pinged will ignore it

    This has been a terrible week for Boris and HMG with the racist attacks on our wonderful black footballers, his annihilation by Starmer at PMQ,s and now this

    I expect this to hit the poll rating of Boris and HMG hard, and deservedly so

    And yes, I am still a member of the party and actually have become a fan of Steve Baker

    Question. As you appear to have mellowed hugely since the scales dropped from your eyes over the RNLI fiasco, can you join these particular dots?

    PM and Home Secretary say they understand (and do not oppose) racists booing the England football team's stand against racism -> "racist attacks on our wonderful black footballers"
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,706
    edited July 16

    Chris said:

    "On a personal level I know of several people I have regular dealings with who have had to self isolate because they were pinged even though they have been double jabbed."

    And why not? AstraZeneca is estimated to have only about 60% efficacy against symptomatic infection, where the Delta variant is concerned. Its efficacy against asymptomatic infection is expected to be lower. The "double jabbed" can still get the disease and pass on the disease.

    Whatever anyone thinks the best strategy is for dealing with this, please let's not mislead anyone into thinking otherwise.

    This disease is causing about 1% of current deaths even though it is widespread. It really isnt something to obsess about to the point of mask wearing , house imprisonment for the crime of being near somebody who may have it etc etc .99% of current deaths are caused by something other than covid- why is 99% (it seems) of government dictaks , media news about covid?
    Because we have a runaway infection rate way higher than the rest of the world and have many hospitals unable to cope?

    You and others are fed up - we all are. But you've decided that the best way to be clear of Covid is to wish it out of existence. The majority think you are crazy. When you find that you are in the minority tomorrow with most people still "virtue signalling" is going to wind you up?

    "Who are these idiots?" you will think about each other.
    I don't think people have decided to wish it out of existence. They just think - for their personal levels of acceptable risk - that they'd rather live with the risk and get on with their lives.

    Even if you disagree with it, it's a reasonable view atm. An alternative is people fearing Covid so much that we never, ever, get out of the restrictions, even when the hospitalisations and deaths are near-zero.

    I'm happy for people to make their own choices at this stage - although the presence of people who cannot be vaccinated (as opposed to refuseniks - is something to be factored in. I'll still be wearing masks for a while, as I don't see it as much of an infringement of my liberties to do so. Others do.

    As an aside, a real tragedy of this crisis is that, whilst vaccinations have worked better than I hoped, therapeutics have not.
    I don't think you are I are very far apart. A measure of further unlocking tomorrow is an acknowledgement that people have already made their own decisions. Mask wearing - and social distancing where possible - remain obviously needed to stop it running away again and proper restrictions having to come back.

    The thing about personal liberty is that it isn't unilateral. I do not have the personal liberty to ask in a way that endangers others. Some people are now so obsessed by it that they have decided to redefine "endanger" to excuse their "fuck off" actions.

    They have quite literally wished it out of existence. Covid is no longer a threat, people exposed should go about their lives normally and if that means treating people on the intensive care ward whilst the rules we have all known throughout say you are infectious then whatever.
    We seem to have had no problem wishing other diseases out of existence during the covid restrictions- cancer, heart , flu, mental health
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,876

    First. FPT:-

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I've always been a big supporter of devolution within England so was interested in the Prime Minister's comments today.

    I'm not wholly sure what a "County Deal" is and it doesn't seem the Prime Minister is either. Surrey and Hampshire are not London and expecting Tim Oliver to take over "transport" beyond local buses and cycling seems curious. Are we suggesting for example the County Councils take over South Western Railway? To be fair, they could only do a better job.

    There's no mention of proper devolution such as ending capping and allowing Councils to set whatever Council Tax they consider justified for service provision. There's no mention (no surprise) of handing planning control back to elected local councillors (might be good if you wanted to stop the drift of disillusioned Conservatives to the LDs) and, more important, no mention of moving powers to local authorities and providing adequate resources (public health being one example).

    The problem with County Councils is so much of their funding is taken up by the provision of care to adults and children - until and unless we see a resolution to the provision and funding of adult social care in particular (those the cost of provision of care to vulnerable children is another big drain on resources), the financial question is going to bedevil progress in other areas.

    It also seems the Government has backed away from any talk of ending two-tier local Government and this will be another issue - again, back to Surrey where the Conservative-run County Council faces eleven Districts and Boroughs, many of whom are now run by anti-Conservative groupings. Seeking a common approach to devolution is almost impossible in such a dislocated political environment.

    Yes, Runnymede, Surrey Heath, Reigate & Banstead and Woking (minority) are Conservative led out of the 11 Ds&Bs in Surrey. I completely agree that the possibility of even a basic accommodation with the County is near zero.
    The Tories now only need to lose 5 seats to lose control of Surrey CC too, Surrey is now full of Tory-LD marginals like Esher and Walton and Guildford and Surrey SW, it is no longer the ultra safe Tory county of the Major years that stayed true blue as other areas fell to Blair and Ashdown.

    By contrast here in Essex, which used to be classic marginal territory with lots of seats won by New Labour, every seat is Tory held and most with big majorities and at county council level the Tories have a large majority of 31 now
    Not quite, Cons 47 others 34 so seven seats! But point taken...though don't forget that Guildford had a LibDem MP until 2010 and Jeremy Hunt only held Surrey SW by three figures in 2005. E&W had an over 20,000 majority just 4 years ago in 2017 and the LibDems did not do well in the May elections albeit they captured Cobham in a by-election last week.
    Wiki now has Surrey Cons 45 Others 36
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_County_Council

    Guildford it is true had a LD MP for 1 term but that is the only seat the Tories have lost in the county before. At the next election it is conceivable Surrey SW, Esher and Walton, Woking as well as Guildford could all go yellow as they are all in the top 50 LD target seats.

    By contrast here in Essex seats like Harlow and Clacton and Harwich and Thurrock which Blair won are not even in the top 100 Labour target seats or Colchester which was LD is not in the top 50 LD targets either.

    In 2019 the Tories got 64% in Essex but only 53% in Surrey
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    One of the curiosities is that there's such a strong East-West gradient on the political map. The places where UKIP/BXP/New Model Tories have done really well tend to be along the East Coast. The further west you go, in general, with exceptions, the less the appeal.

    (Look, say at where the really dark blue splodges are on this map;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election)

    Are there any good theories about what's going on?
    Yes. George Osborne. Austerity. Government cut funding to councils; councils made cuts; people blamed the Labour councils, and the EU and everyone except the government; voted UKIP then Leave then Tory.

    Btw you mangled your link by not leaving a space before the closing bracket:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Compare the dark blue areas on that map with the red (high austerity) areas on the map here:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

    And this is where I used to say Cameron and Osborne caused Brexit and ended their own careers with their gerrymandering (whose side-effect was disenfranchising pro-Remain voters) and austerity. However, now PB Tories might say, ah, but there is a God and the end result was Conservative hegemony under the great Boris!

    This is what Dominic Cummings saw, hence the levelling up agenda which as we know from Boris's speech yesterday, is, well, who can tell?
    That's a polite fiction lefties are telling themselves to convince themselves they have "won the argument".

    If blaming Councils were the issue then why haven't Tory Councils been blamed? Tories already had most Councillors nationwide.

    More significantly is surely that the country has full employment. With the Living Wage that Osborne introduced, full employment, and affordable houses people are able to afford their own homes and not rely upon Councils.
    People blamed Labour councils because they had Labour councils. You think people voted UKIP out of gratitude to George Osborne? You have misunderstood and/or not properly engaged with the argument.
    Except most people didn't have Labour Councils. 🤦‍♂️

    By 2010 after 13 years of Labour in government, the Tories had won most Councillors across the country. So if people were turning against their local Councillors then the Tories should have been the biggest losers, not the big winners from that.

    Is there some magical reason in your eyes that people have turned against Labour Councils in a way that they haven't turned against Tory ones?

    Or maybe its just that people turned against Labour as they didn't like what Labour had to say? 🤔
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,039
    On the isolation rules, wouldnt ending isolation on day 5 if you have done 2 negative LFTs on days 3&5 and are double jabbed be fine? That would surely reduce the number of isolation days that hit the economy by around 40%?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,315


    I don't think you are I are very far apart. A measure of further unlocking tomorrow is an acknowledgement that people have already made their own decisions. Mask wearing - and social distancing where possible - remain obviously needed to stop it running away again and proper restrictions having to come back.

    The thing about personal liberty is that it isn't unilateral. I do not have the personal liberty to ask in a way that endangers others. Some people are now so obsessed by it that they have decided to redefine "endanger" to excuse their "fuck off" actions.

    They have quite literally wished it out of existence. Covid is no longer a threat, people exposed should go about their lives normally and if that means treating people on the intensive care ward whilst the rules we have all known throughout say you are infectious then whatever.

    Personal liberty isn't unilateral. but there are limits to the amount you should be expected to curtail your activities for others. Choosing to go at 50MPH in a 30MPH zone is bad. Not driving at all - even at the speed limit - because someone might get hurt is bad in another way.

    We have a good comparison in flu. Before Covid, we had tens of thousands of deaths each year because of flu. To keep it under control, we vaccinated - but had no limits to our personal freedoms. People still went into work coughing and sniffling (*), and we coped. IMO the risks from Covid at the moment are *below* where they would be in a bad flu year. So why massive restrictions? (Remember, in many winters we have had 'NHS cannot cope with flu crisis" headlines.

    One thing that concerns me is that, in future winters, we'll have a similar kafuffle over 'ordinary' flu. Restrict yourselves to protect the NHS. IMV that'll be hideous for the nation.

    (*) I think that's something that's going to change
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,566

    Looks like GB News viewers are in favour of the cancel culture, both viewers in fact.

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    The channel has now said the decision of Guto Harri to make the on-air gesture on Tuesday in solidarity against the racist abuse suffered by English players was “an unacceptable breach of our standards”.

    A GB News spokesperson declined to say whether Harri, a former spokesperson for Boris Johnson, was still with the channel.

    Business editor Liam Halligan and former Labour MP Gloria De Piero attracted no measurable audience to their show between 1pm and 1.30pm on Wednesday afternoon. During the same timeslot the BBC News channel attracted 62,000 viewers, while Sky News had 50,000 people watching.

    GB News’ audience again briefly dipped to zero at 5pm, during a late-afternoon programme co-hosted by ex-BBC presenter Simon McCoy and former Ukip spokesperson Alex Phillips.

    The figures were recorded the day after Harri’s move, which led to widespread fury on social media from GB News viewers who pledged to stop watching the recently launched rightwing current affairs channel, making accusations that it had sold out and gone “woke”, secretly harboured Marxist values, or was in favour of Black Lives Matter.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    GB News reminds me of the England fan who stuck a flare up his arse. Burning brightly but briefly, leaving behind a nasty smell and an ugly picture that nobody wants to look at.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,039

    Looks like GB News viewers are in favour of the cancel culture, both viewers in fact.

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    The channel has now said the decision of Guto Harri to make the on-air gesture on Tuesday in solidarity against the racist abuse suffered by English players was “an unacceptable breach of our standards”.

    A GB News spokesperson declined to say whether Harri, a former spokesperson for Boris Johnson, was still with the channel.

    Business editor Liam Halligan and former Labour MP Gloria De Piero attracted no measurable audience to their show between 1pm and 1.30pm on Wednesday afternoon. During the same timeslot the BBC News channel attracted 62,000 viewers, while Sky News had 50,000 people watching.

    GB News’ audience again briefly dipped to zero at 5pm, during a late-afternoon programme co-hosted by ex-BBC presenter Simon McCoy and former Ukip spokesperson Alex Phillips.

    The figures were recorded the day after Harri’s move, which led to widespread fury on social media from GB News viewers who pledged to stop watching the recently launched rightwing current affairs channel, making accusations that it had sold out and gone “woke”, secretly harboured Marxist values, or was in favour of Black Lives Matter.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    The reaction to this has been instructive. They billed it as news free from bias, a safe haven from interfering management telling people what to think. Where decent respectable people could come for news.

    And then we have Guto "who?" Hari taking the knee and the whole place goes mental. HOW DARE HE etc etc. "An unacceptable breach of our standards" - what the hell are their standards then?

    As Novara Media have higher production values, perhaps the no surrender news channel should just launch onto the internet and Youtube and be done with it. Then they can safely interview the guy waving his cock about at the football and sympathetic interviews to the people who posted racist abuse at footballers without the risk of anything horrible happening like someone taking the knee.
    The rights recent tantrum about free speech, has been about the right saying things they want to say and have no consequences for saying it. They still like to complain loudly and take action when others say things they disagree with.

    The boring reality is free speech has always come with consequences.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,876

    ydoethur said:

    Delete app.
    Use phone's camera mode and wave the phone over the QR code at a venue.

    Job done.

    Tbh, I can’t remember when I was last asked for my contact details at a venue.

    Must have been some time ago.
    I have never had the app. Have been asked to check in all of once having been into licensed premises 4 times in total since Covid began.

    I do have to laugh though at the mentality that we have to 'break the doom cycle' or whatever. Pox will Go Away if we think positive thoughts. meanwhile, as we have some hospitals being overrun, they're having to instruct their staff to delete the app because whether they have come into contact with Covid or not, if so many staff have to isolate then people are going to die.
    Pox won't Go Away if we think positive thoughts. Pox has already Gone Away as a significant cause of death.

    People are hyperventillating over cases but cases aren't resulting in deaths in any significant number.

    The solution is simple. Stop worrying about cases. Stop testing for cases. Stop trying to prevent the pox spreading.

    If people are unvaccinated they may get sick and die. So get vaccinated.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654

    Looks like GB News viewers are in favour of the cancel culture, both viewers in fact.

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    The channel has now said the decision of Guto Harri to make the on-air gesture on Tuesday in solidarity against the racist abuse suffered by English players was “an unacceptable breach of our standards”.

    A GB News spokesperson declined to say whether Harri, a former spokesperson for Boris Johnson, was still with the channel.

    Business editor Liam Halligan and former Labour MP Gloria De Piero attracted no measurable audience to their show between 1pm and 1.30pm on Wednesday afternoon. During the same timeslot the BBC News channel attracted 62,000 viewers, while Sky News had 50,000 people watching.

    GB News’ audience again briefly dipped to zero at 5pm, during a late-afternoon programme co-hosted by ex-BBC presenter Simon McCoy and former Ukip spokesperson Alex Phillips.

    The figures were recorded the day after Harri’s move, which led to widespread fury on social media from GB News viewers who pledged to stop watching the recently launched rightwing current affairs channel, making accusations that it had sold out and gone “woke”, secretly harboured Marxist values, or was in favour of Black Lives Matter.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Hari is an idiot. It was bound to cause trouble. I don't watch GB news or any other news bar reading the Times. Its the only way to get a properspective unencumbered for the most part by woke shite and arguments about football. And lies on twitter.

    I have been in the Lake district undistracted by the TV in our accommodation. It only went on to find the WiFi password and that was it.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,490

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee

    Not going to make 6 months are they.

    Nope.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,606
    dr_spyn said:

    Is this tracking and pinging technology not used on phones in Germany, Spain, Italy France, or is this just British exceptionalism?

    The known case numbers are definitely higher here than those countries
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,706
    edited July 16

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee

    Not going to make 6 months are they.

    Nope.
    Well if they bill themselves as an anti-woke channel (and why not?) then its best not to go more woke than your mainstream channels. Otherwise you do get precisely (or imprecisely) nil viewers
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,970

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Good thread about the latest study of the Delta variant.
    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1415672461111271424

    Basically it’s more infectious than other variants as those infected shed virus earlier, and shed up to 1000x more of it.
    It doesn’t seem to be significantly more or less dangerous than the other variants to those infected, though.

    If you had to pick a variant it would surely be this one? As long as it can out-compete any new, more-deadly variant.
    Up to a point, Lord Copper, and that point is that the NHS does seem to be in danger again with ITU beds being filled, even if death rates are well down. There has been some discussion on here but I've not seen it being picked up. Even if current capacity problems are limited to a few trusts, things may get worse over winter if flu returns.
    Which is why you want the exit wave now, not in winter
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,039

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee

    Not going to make 6 months are they.

    Nope.
    Well if they bill themselves as an anti-woke channel (and why not?) then its best not to go more woke than your mainstream channels. Otherwise you do get precisely (or imprecisely) nil viewers
    They billed themselves as pro free speech, not anti woke.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,876
    kjh said:

    First. FPT:-

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I've always been a big supporter of devolution within England so was interested in the Prime Minister's comments today.

    I'm not wholly sure what a "County Deal" is and it doesn't seem the Prime Minister is either. Surrey and Hampshire are not London and expecting Tim Oliver to take over "transport" beyond local buses and cycling seems curious. Are we suggesting for example the County Councils take over South Western Railway? To be fair, they could only do a better job.

    There's no mention of proper devolution such as ending capping and allowing Councils to set whatever Council Tax they consider justified for service provision. There's no mention (no surprise) of handing planning control back to elected local councillors (might be good if you wanted to stop the drift of disillusioned Conservatives to the LDs) and, more important, no mention of moving powers to local authorities and providing adequate resources (public health being one example).

    The problem with County Councils is so much of their funding is taken up by the provision of care to adults and children - until and unless we see a resolution to the provision and funding of adult social care in particular (those the cost of provision of care to vulnerable children is another big drain on resources), the financial question is going to bedevil progress in other areas.

    It also seems the Government has backed away from any talk of ending two-tier local Government and this will be another issue - again, back to Surrey where the Conservative-run County Council faces eleven Districts and Boroughs, many of whom are now run by anti-Conservative groupings. Seeking a common approach to devolution is almost impossible in such a dislocated political environment.

    Yes, Runnymede, Surrey Heath, Reigate & Banstead and Woking (minority) are Conservative led out of the 11 Ds&Bs in Surrey. I completely agree that the possibility of even a basic accommodation with the County is near zero.
    The Tories now only need to lose 5 seats to lose control of Surrey CC too, Surrey is now full of Tory-LD marginals like Esher and Walton and Guildford and Surrey SW, it is no longer the ultra safe Tory county of the Major years that stayed true blue as other areas fell to Blair and Ashdown.

    By contrast here in Essex, which used to be classic marginal territory with lots of seats won by New Labour, every seat is Tory held and most with big majorities and at county council level the Tories have a large majority of 31 now
    Not quite, Cons 47 others 34 so seven seats! But point taken...though don't forget that Guildford had a LibDem MP until 2010 and Jeremy Hunt only held Surrey SW by three figures in 2005. E&W had an over 20,000 majority just 4 years ago in 2017 and the LibDems did not do well in the May elections albeit they captured Cobham in a by-election last week.
    Wiki now has Surrey Cons 45 Others 36
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_County_Council

    Guildford it is true had a LD MP for 1 term but that is the only seat the Tories have lost in the county before. At the next election it is conceivable Surrey SW, Esher and Walton, Woking as well as Guildford could all go yellow as they are all in the top 50 LD target seats.

    By contrast here in Essex seats like Harlow and Clacton and Harwich and Thurrock which Blair won are not even in the top 100 Labour target seats or Colchester which was LD is not in the top 50 LD targets either.

    In 2019 the Tories got 64% in Essex but only 53% in Surrey
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    One of the curiosities is that there's such a strong East-West gradient on the political map. The places where UKIP/BXP/New Model Tories have done really well tend to be along the East Coast. The further west you go, in general, with exceptions, the less the appeal.

    (Look, say at where the really dark blue splodges are on this map;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election)

    Are there any good theories about what's going on?
    Yes. George Osborne. Austerity. Government cut funding to councils; councils made cuts; people blamed the Labour councils, and the EU and everyone except the government; voted UKIP then Leave then Tory.

    Btw you mangled your link by not leaving a space before the closing bracket:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Compare the dark blue areas on that map with the red (high austerity) areas on the map here:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

    And this is where I used to say Cameron and Osborne caused Brexit and ended their own careers with their gerrymandering (whose side-effect was disenfranchising pro-Remain voters) and austerity. However, now PB Tories might say, ah, but there is a God and the end result was Conservative hegemony under the great Boris!

    This is what Dominic Cummings saw, hence the levelling up agenda which as we know from Boris's speech yesterday, is, well, who can tell?
    That's a polite fiction lefties are telling themselves to convince themselves they have "won the argument".

    If blaming Councils were the issue then why haven't Tory Councils been blamed? Tories already had most Councillors nationwide.

    More significantly is surely that the country has full employment. With the Living Wage that Osborne introduced, full employment, and affordable houses people are able to afford their own homes and not rely upon Councils.
    George Osborne didn't introduce the living wage, he renamed the minimum wage which Conservatives opposed.
    He did introduce the Living Wage.

    The Minimum Wage tiers already existed. The Living Wage is a brand new even higher tier introduced by Osborne.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,970

    I deleted the App 24 hours after installing it last year. I could see what was coming.

    Now that we have vaccines, testing is a waste of time. We don't test people for flu.

    We need to snap out of this fear-laden doom-mongered mindset. And live.

    I know this bit is controversial, but if I've caught covid I shan't inform anyone. I'll wear a mask out and about including at the shops and that's it.

    And, once again, knowingly put people at risk of catching a highly transmissible and potentially fatal deal is evil.

    If you know you have the bug then the only right thing to do is self isolate.

    Everything else is fine.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,490

    Off-topic:

    A mate started feeling ill in March of last year. He decided he had had Covid, and was suffering from long Covid. This went on until recently, when a doctor ordered tests that eventually revealed that he had a rare stage-4 cancer.

    He's a few years younger than me, with a family. He says that if it had not been for Covid, he would have got the symptoms checked out much earlier.

    The health effects of Covid are going to last a long time, even for many of those who never got Covid...

    Yepp. Which is why I think historians will judge that the chilled-out ‘Swedish Model’ will turn out to have been much more successful than the ‘Bat-shit Crazy Model’ adopted by the RoW.

    It’ll take at least a decade before we can begin to draw conclusions.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,707
    edited July 16

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee

    Not going to make 6 months are they.

    Nope.
    Well if they bill themselves as an anti-woke channel (and why not?) then its best not to go more woke than your mainstream channels. Otherwise you do get precisely (or imprecisely) nil viewers
    Yes, they really don't like free speech or contrary opinions do they the GB News viewers!

    What really is killing it, apart from the poor production values, is that there is very little news, just repetitive pub bores rolling out the same tired ill-informed whinges. They just cannot fill 24 hours that way. They probably could manage a couple of hours in the evening.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,491
    edited July 16

    kjh said:

    First. FPT:-

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I've always been a big supporter of devolution within England so was interested in the Prime Minister's comments today.

    I'm not wholly sure what a "County Deal" is and it doesn't seem the Prime Minister is either. Surrey and Hampshire are not London and expecting Tim Oliver to take over "transport" beyond local buses and cycling seems curious. Are we suggesting for example the County Councils take over South Western Railway? To be fair, they could only do a better job.

    There's no mention of proper devolution such as ending capping and allowing Councils to set whatever Council Tax they consider justified for service provision. There's no mention (no surprise) of handing planning control back to elected local councillors (might be good if you wanted to stop the drift of disillusioned Conservatives to the LDs) and, more important, no mention of moving powers to local authorities and providing adequate resources (public health being one example).

    The problem with County Councils is so much of their funding is taken up by the provision of care to adults and children - until and unless we see a resolution to the provision and funding of adult social care in particular (those the cost of provision of care to vulnerable children is another big drain on resources), the financial question is going to bedevil progress in other areas.

    It also seems the Government has backed away from any talk of ending two-tier local Government and this will be another issue - again, back to Surrey where the Conservative-run County Council faces eleven Districts and Boroughs, many of whom are now run by anti-Conservative groupings. Seeking a common approach to devolution is almost impossible in such a dislocated political environment.

    Yes, Runnymede, Surrey Heath, Reigate & Banstead and Woking (minority) are Conservative led out of the 11 Ds&Bs in Surrey. I completely agree that the possibility of even a basic accommodation with the County is near zero.
    The Tories now only need to lose 5 seats to lose control of Surrey CC too, Surrey is now full of Tory-LD marginals like Esher and Walton and Guildford and Surrey SW, it is no longer the ultra safe Tory county of the Major years that stayed true blue as other areas fell to Blair and Ashdown.

    By contrast here in Essex, which used to be classic marginal territory with lots of seats won by New Labour, every seat is Tory held and most with big majorities and at county council level the Tories have a large majority of 31 now
    Not quite, Cons 47 others 34 so seven seats! But point taken...though don't forget that Guildford had a LibDem MP until 2010 and Jeremy Hunt only held Surrey SW by three figures in 2005. E&W had an over 20,000 majority just 4 years ago in 2017 and the LibDems did not do well in the May elections albeit they captured Cobham in a by-election last week.
    Wiki now has Surrey Cons 45 Others 36
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_County_Council

    Guildford it is true had a LD MP for 1 term but that is the only seat the Tories have lost in the county before. At the next election it is conceivable Surrey SW, Esher and Walton, Woking as well as Guildford could all go yellow as they are all in the top 50 LD target seats.

    By contrast here in Essex seats like Harlow and Clacton and Harwich and Thurrock which Blair won are not even in the top 100 Labour target seats or Colchester which was LD is not in the top 50 LD targets either.

    In 2019 the Tories got 64% in Essex but only 53% in Surrey
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    One of the curiosities is that there's such a strong East-West gradient on the political map. The places where UKIP/BXP/New Model Tories have done really well tend to be along the East Coast. The further west you go, in general, with exceptions, the less the appeal.

    (Look, say at where the really dark blue splodges are on this map;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election)

    Are there any good theories about what's going on?
    Yes. George Osborne. Austerity. Government cut funding to councils; councils made cuts; people blamed the Labour councils, and the EU and everyone except the government; voted UKIP then Leave then Tory.

    Btw you mangled your link by not leaving a space before the closing bracket:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Compare the dark blue areas on that map with the red (high austerity) areas on the map here:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

    And this is where I used to say Cameron and Osborne caused Brexit and ended their own careers with their gerrymandering (whose side-effect was disenfranchising pro-Remain voters) and austerity. However, now PB Tories might say, ah, but there is a God and the end result was Conservative hegemony under the great Boris!

    This is what Dominic Cummings saw, hence the levelling up agenda which as we know from Boris's speech yesterday, is, well, who can tell?
    That's a polite fiction lefties are telling themselves to convince themselves they have "won the argument".

    If blaming Councils were the issue then why haven't Tory Councils been blamed? Tories already had most Councillors nationwide.

    More significantly is surely that the country has full employment. With the Living Wage that Osborne introduced, full employment, and affordable houses people are able to afford their own homes and not rely upon Councils.
    George Osborne didn't introduce the living wage, he renamed the minimum wage which Conservatives opposed.
    He did introduce the Living Wage.

    The Minimum Wage tiers already existed. The Living Wage is a brand new even higher tier introduced by Osborne.
    Dancing on a pinhead.

    Why did the Tories object to the minimum wage?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,706
    edited July 16
    Charles said:

    I deleted the App 24 hours after installing it last year. I could see what was coming.

    Now that we have vaccines, testing is a waste of time. We don't test people for flu.

    We need to snap out of this fear-laden doom-mongered mindset. And live.

    I know this bit is controversial, but if I've caught covid I shan't inform anyone. I'll wear a mask out and about including at the shops and that's it.

    And, once again, knowingly put people at risk of catching a highly transmissible and potentially fatal deal is evil.

    If you know you have the bug then the only right thing to do is self isolate.

    Everything else is fine.
    but Charles , in your last post you said its better for the country to get covid as a whole now and not in winter? So how is it evil doing something that will facilitate this?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,876
    IanB2 said:

    R4 reporting the Chancellor will be able to avoid the triple-lock 8% by switching to a measure of "underlying earnings growth" which the ONS has helpfully fished out of a bottom drawer.

    Called it.

    Treasury has always been good at this kind of thing - and it's fair and appropriate.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,706

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee

    Not going to make 6 months are they.

    Nope.
    Well if they bill themselves as an anti-woke channel (and why not?) then its best not to go more woke than your mainstream channels. Otherwise you do get precisely (or imprecisely) nil viewers
    They billed themselves as pro free speech, not anti woke.
    I think a venn diagram would show a big common area between those
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,876

    On topic, I did fear this would happen, it will get worse for a few weeks.

    It is making people nervous and scared again.

    Do you think people are nervous about being infected, getting sick and maybe dying?

    Or nervous about being pinged and having to isolate?

    People seem more worried about the latter and it messing up their plans and that's easily fixed. Stop pinging people.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,446

    Good morning

    I agree with this thread and to be honest unless something is done very quickly I can see many hundreds of thousands of people deleting the app

    I expect many of those pinged will ignore it

    This has been a terrible week for Boris and HMG with the racist attacks on our wonderful black footballers, his annihilation by Starmer at PMQ,s and now this

    I expect this to hit the poll rating of Boris and HMG hard, and deservedly so

    And yes, I am still a member of the party and actually have become a fan of Steve Baker

    Question. As you appear to have mellowed hugely since the scales dropped from your eyes over the RNLI fiasco, can you join these particular dots?

    PM and Home Secretary say they understand (and do not oppose) racists booing the England football team's stand against racism -> "racist attacks on our wonderful black footballers"
    Your attitude is mistaken as I have held my views since before the RNLI issue which has now been referred to by my mp (and friend to the Home Secretary

    As far as taking the knee is concerned I do not like anyone bending a knee, and can understand those who do not support it including several high profile black players in the Premier League

    Actually , the one thing the racists have achieved is a large increase in those now actively supporting taking the knee and Steve Baker is spot on on his comments about this issue
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,516
    edited July 16

    Good morning

    I agree with this thread and to be honest unless something is done very quickly I can see many hundreds of thousands of people deleting the app

    I expect many of those pinged will ignore it

    This has been a terrible week for Boris and HMG with the racist attacks on our wonderful black footballers, his annihilation by Starmer at PMQ,s and now this

    I expect this to hit the poll rating of Boris and HMG hard, and deservedly so

    And yes, I am still a member of the party and actually have become a fan of Steve Baker

    Question. As you appear to have mellowed hugely since the scales dropped from your eyes over the RNLI fiasco, can you join these particular dots?

    PM and Home Secretary say they understand (and do not oppose) racists booing the England football team's stand against racism -> "racist attacks on our wonderful black footballers"
    Where exactly did they say they ‘understood racists booing the England football team’

    That’s a hell of a leap. They certainly defended the right to boo or said people have a right to boo which they clearly do. But your spin on what they said seems to be at odds with what they said.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/57837572
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,282

    Looks like GB News viewers are in favour of the cancel culture, both viewers in fact.

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    The channel has now said the decision of Guto Harri to make the on-air gesture on Tuesday in solidarity against the racist abuse suffered by English players was “an unacceptable breach of our standards”.

    A GB News spokesperson declined to say whether Harri, a former spokesperson for Boris Johnson, was still with the channel.

    Business editor Liam Halligan and former Labour MP Gloria De Piero attracted no measurable audience to their show between 1pm and 1.30pm on Wednesday afternoon. During the same timeslot the BBC News channel attracted 62,000 viewers, while Sky News had 50,000 people watching.

    GB News’ audience again briefly dipped to zero at 5pm, during a late-afternoon programme co-hosted by ex-BBC presenter Simon McCoy and former Ukip spokesperson Alex Phillips.

    The figures were recorded the day after Harri’s move, which led to widespread fury on social media from GB News viewers who pledged to stop watching the recently launched rightwing current affairs channel, making accusations that it had sold out and gone “woke”, secretly harboured Marxist values, or was in favour of Black Lives Matter.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    The reaction to this has been instructive. They billed it as news free from bias, a safe haven from interfering management telling people what to think. Where decent respectable people could come for news.

    And then we have Guto "who?" Hari taking the knee and the whole place goes mental. HOW DARE HE etc etc. "An unacceptable breach of our standards" - what the hell are their standards then?

    As Novara Media have higher production values, perhaps the no surrender news channel should just launch onto the internet and Youtube and be done with it. Then they can safely interview the guy waving his cock about at the football and sympathetic interviews to the people who posted racist abuse at footballers without the risk of anything horrible happening like someone taking the knee.
    The rights recent tantrum about free speech, has been about the right saying things they want to say and have no consequences for saying it. They still like to complain loudly and take action when others say things they disagree with.

    The boring reality is free speech has always come with consequences.
    What really terrifies them is that their free speech is also the free speech of others. They want to be able to have free speech to attack the woke, the people taking the knee and the liberal media. They don't want the rest of the country to have free speech to attack them - "cancel culture".

    Its fine to "cancel" Hari taking the knee. Its not fine for the people taking the knee to "cancel" your racism. Again, if people want one-sided bullshit "journalism" the model is Novara Media. That way you only get what you want, you pay for it directly so it always gives you what you want, and if decent society shuns it and you its proof that you are winning the argument.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,490
    edited July 16
    Chris said:

    "On a personal level I know of several people I have regular dealings with who have had to self isolate because they were pinged even though they have been double jabbed."

    And why not? AstraZeneca is estimated to have only about 60% efficacy against symptomatic infection, where the Delta variant is concerned. Its efficacy against asymptomatic infection is expected to be lower. The "double jabbed" can still get the disease and pass on the disease.

    Whatever anyone thinks the best strategy is for dealing with this, please let's not mislead anyone into thinking otherwise.

    I love how when it was launched, amid much boke-inducing hype, it was boastingly called the “Oxford” vaccine (sticking out of chest compulsory). Now that the planet universally acknowledges it as a dud, it is the “AstraZeneca” vaccine, a product of a dodgy EU company, based in Sweden.

    Shades of that other phenomenon:
    - Andy Murray winning =British success
    - Andy Murray losing = Scottish failure
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,707

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee

    Not going to make 6 months are they.

    Nope.
    Well if they bill themselves as an anti-woke channel (and why not?) then its best not to go more woke than your mainstream channels. Otherwise you do get precisely (or imprecisely) nil viewers
    They billed themselves as pro free speech, not anti woke.
    I think a venn diagram would show a big common area between those
    Looks like 2 separate circles to me if GBNews viewers are boycotting because a presenter expressed an opinion!
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,516

    On topic, I did fear this would happen, it will get worse for a few weeks.

    It is making people nervous and scared again.

    Do you think people are nervous about being infected, getting sick and maybe dying?

    Or nervous about being pinged and having to isolate?

    People seem more worried about the latter and it messing up their plans and that's easily fixed. Stop pinging people.
    I’m more bothered about the latter for sure.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,876
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    First. FPT:-

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I've always been a big supporter of devolution within England so was interested in the Prime Minister's comments today.

    I'm not wholly sure what a "County Deal" is and it doesn't seem the Prime Minister is either. Surrey and Hampshire are not London and expecting Tim Oliver to take over "transport" beyond local buses and cycling seems curious. Are we suggesting for example the County Councils take over South Western Railway? To be fair, they could only do a better job.

    There's no mention of proper devolution such as ending capping and allowing Councils to set whatever Council Tax they consider justified for service provision. There's no mention (no surprise) of handing planning control back to elected local councillors (might be good if you wanted to stop the drift of disillusioned Conservatives to the LDs) and, more important, no mention of moving powers to local authorities and providing adequate resources (public health being one example).

    The problem with County Councils is so much of their funding is taken up by the provision of care to adults and children - until and unless we see a resolution to the provision and funding of adult social care in particular (those the cost of provision of care to vulnerable children is another big drain on resources), the financial question is going to bedevil progress in other areas.

    It also seems the Government has backed away from any talk of ending two-tier local Government and this will be another issue - again, back to Surrey where the Conservative-run County Council faces eleven Districts and Boroughs, many of whom are now run by anti-Conservative groupings. Seeking a common approach to devolution is almost impossible in such a dislocated political environment.

    Yes, Runnymede, Surrey Heath, Reigate & Banstead and Woking (minority) are Conservative led out of the 11 Ds&Bs in Surrey. I completely agree that the possibility of even a basic accommodation with the County is near zero.
    The Tories now only need to lose 5 seats to lose control of Surrey CC too, Surrey is now full of Tory-LD marginals like Esher and Walton and Guildford and Surrey SW, it is no longer the ultra safe Tory county of the Major years that stayed true blue as other areas fell to Blair and Ashdown.

    By contrast here in Essex, which used to be classic marginal territory with lots of seats won by New Labour, every seat is Tory held and most with big majorities and at county council level the Tories have a large majority of 31 now
    Not quite, Cons 47 others 34 so seven seats! But point taken...though don't forget that Guildford had a LibDem MP until 2010 and Jeremy Hunt only held Surrey SW by three figures in 2005. E&W had an over 20,000 majority just 4 years ago in 2017 and the LibDems did not do well in the May elections albeit they captured Cobham in a by-election last week.
    Wiki now has Surrey Cons 45 Others 36
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_County_Council

    Guildford it is true had a LD MP for 1 term but that is the only seat the Tories have lost in the county before. At the next election it is conceivable Surrey SW, Esher and Walton, Woking as well as Guildford could all go yellow as they are all in the top 50 LD target seats.

    By contrast here in Essex seats like Harlow and Clacton and Harwich and Thurrock which Blair won are not even in the top 100 Labour target seats or Colchester which was LD is not in the top 50 LD targets either.

    In 2019 the Tories got 64% in Essex but only 53% in Surrey
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    One of the curiosities is that there's such a strong East-West gradient on the political map. The places where UKIP/BXP/New Model Tories have done really well tend to be along the East Coast. The further west you go, in general, with exceptions, the less the appeal.

    (Look, say at where the really dark blue splodges are on this map;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election)

    Are there any good theories about what's going on?
    Yes. George Osborne. Austerity. Government cut funding to councils; councils made cuts; people blamed the Labour councils, and the EU and everyone except the government; voted UKIP then Leave then Tory.

    Btw you mangled your link by not leaving a space before the closing bracket:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Compare the dark blue areas on that map with the red (high austerity) areas on the map here:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

    And this is where I used to say Cameron and Osborne caused Brexit and ended their own careers with their gerrymandering (whose side-effect was disenfranchising pro-Remain voters) and austerity. However, now PB Tories might say, ah, but there is a God and the end result was Conservative hegemony under the great Boris!

    This is what Dominic Cummings saw, hence the levelling up agenda which as we know from Boris's speech yesterday, is, well, who can tell?
    That's a polite fiction lefties are telling themselves to convince themselves they have "won the argument".

    If blaming Councils were the issue then why haven't Tory Councils been blamed? Tories already had most Councillors nationwide.

    More significantly is surely that the country has full employment. With the Living Wage that Osborne introduced, full employment, and affordable houses people are able to afford their own homes and not rely upon Councils.
    George Osborne didn't introduce the living wage, he renamed the minimum wage which Conservatives opposed.
    He did introduce the Living Wage.

    The Minimum Wage tiers already existed. The Living Wage is a brand new even higher tier introduced by Osborne.
    Dancing on a pinhead.

    Why did the Tories object to the minimum wage?
    Why should we care?

    That was before I was even an adult and I've voted in six general elections since then.

    Whether a prior generation of politicians, very few of whom are still in Parliament and none of whom hold a senior role in the party anymore, opposed it or not is moot now. The Tories in Parliament today have introduced the Living Wage and uplifted the Minimum Wage faster than inflation.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,970
    Taz said:

    Absolutely agree with this. I’m double jabbed and am tempted to delete the app now.

    I never installed it
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 98,200
    edited July 16

    On topic, I did fear this would happen, it will get worse for a few weeks.

    It is making people nervous and scared again.

    Do you think people are nervous about being infected, getting sick and maybe dying?

    Or nervous about being pinged and having to isolate?

    People seem more worried about the latter and it messing up their plans and that's easily fixed. Stop pinging people.
    I mentioned it the other day, a pollster told me it was clear that the public were getting scared again, but not so much for themselves, the public are aware of the following facts

    1) To deal with the Delta variant you need to be jabbed twice

    2) They know 66% of adults have been double jabbed

    3) They know that we're removing pretty much all restrictions on Monday

    So they have family and friends who aren't doubled jabbed, so they worry and get scared about them. all this pinging is merely the cherry on the parfait and doesn't impact 1-3.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,086
    Pulpstar said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Is this tracking and pinging technology not used on phones in Germany, Spain, Italy France, or is this just British exceptionalism?

    The known case numbers are definitely higher here than those countries
    Indeed, but cases are rising in parts of Spain. It does beg questions about how far an increase in infection rates would result in an an increase in notifications and absences from work.

    People have not always used the NHS track and trace app at venues, are the paper lists collected at venues scanned, handed over with accurate contact details.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,970
    IanB2 said:

    R4 reporting the Chancellor will be able to avoid the triple-lock 8% by switching to a measure of "underlying earnings growth" which the ONS has helpfully fished out of a bottom drawer.

    He really ought to move to a target percentage of average earnings with a catch up over 10 years or so, but then lock it in to that
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,706
    edited July 16

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    First. FPT:-

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I've always been a big supporter of devolution within England so was interested in the Prime Minister's comments today.

    I'm not wholly sure what a "County Deal" is and it doesn't seem the Prime Minister is either. Surrey and Hampshire are not London and expecting Tim Oliver to take over "transport" beyond local buses and cycling seems curious. Are we suggesting for example the County Councils take over South Western Railway? To be fair, they could only do a better job.

    There's no mention of proper devolution such as ending capping and allowing Councils to set whatever Council Tax they consider justified for service provision. There's no mention (no surprise) of handing planning control back to elected local councillors (might be good if you wanted to stop the drift of disillusioned Conservatives to the LDs) and, more important, no mention of moving powers to local authorities and providing adequate resources (public health being one example).

    The problem with County Councils is so much of their funding is taken up by the provision of care to adults and children - until and unless we see a resolution to the provision and funding of adult social care in particular (those the cost of provision of care to vulnerable children is another big drain on resources), the financial question is going to bedevil progress in other areas.

    It also seems the Government has backed away from any talk of ending two-tier local Government and this will be another issue - again, back to Surrey where the Conservative-run County Council faces eleven Districts and Boroughs, many of whom are now run by anti-Conservative groupings. Seeking a common approach to devolution is almost impossible in such a dislocated political environment.

    Yes, Runnymede, Surrey Heath, Reigate & Banstead and Woking (minority) are Conservative led out of the 11 Ds&Bs in Surrey. I completely agree that the possibility of even a basic accommodation with the County is near zero.
    The Tories now only need to lose 5 seats to lose control of Surrey CC too, Surrey is now full of Tory-LD marginals like Esher and Walton and Guildford and Surrey SW, it is no longer the ultra safe Tory county of the Major years that stayed true blue as other areas fell to Blair and Ashdown.

    By contrast here in Essex, which used to be classic marginal territory with lots of seats won by New Labour, every seat is Tory held and most with big majorities and at county council level the Tories have a large majority of 31 now
    Not quite, Cons 47 others 34 so seven seats! But point taken...though don't forget that Guildford had a LibDem MP until 2010 and Jeremy Hunt only held Surrey SW by three figures in 2005. E&W had an over 20,000 majority just 4 years ago in 2017 and the LibDems did not do well in the May elections albeit they captured Cobham in a by-election last week.
    Wiki now has Surrey Cons 45 Others 36
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_County_Council

    Guildford it is true had a LD MP for 1 term but that is the only seat the Tories have lost in the county before. At the next election it is conceivable Surrey SW, Esher and Walton, Woking as well as Guildford could all go yellow as they are all in the top 50 LD target seats.

    By contrast here in Essex seats like Harlow and Clacton and Harwich and Thurrock which Blair won are not even in the top 100 Labour target seats or Colchester which was LD is not in the top 50 LD targets either.

    In 2019 the Tories got 64% in Essex but only 53% in Surrey
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England
    One of the curiosities is that there's such a strong East-West gradient on the political map. The places where UKIP/BXP/New Model Tories have done really well tend to be along the East Coast. The further west you go, in general, with exceptions, the less the appeal.

    (Look, say at where the really dark blue splodges are on this map;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election)

    Are there any good theories about what's going on?
    Yes. George Osborne. Austerity. Government cut funding to councils; councils made cuts; people blamed the Labour councils, and the EU and everyone except the government; voted UKIP then Leave then Tory.

    Btw you mangled your link by not leaving a space before the closing bracket:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_breakdown_of_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Compare the dark blue areas on that map with the red (high austerity) areas on the map here:
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

    And this is where I used to say Cameron and Osborne caused Brexit and ended their own careers with their gerrymandering (whose side-effect was disenfranchising pro-Remain voters) and austerity. However, now PB Tories might say, ah, but there is a God and the end result was Conservative hegemony under the great Boris!

    This is what Dominic Cummings saw, hence the levelling up agenda which as we know from Boris's speech yesterday, is, well, who can tell?
    That's a polite fiction lefties are telling themselves to convince themselves they have "won the argument".

    If blaming Councils were the issue then why haven't Tory Councils been blamed? Tories already had most Councillors nationwide.

    More significantly is surely that the country has full employment. With the Living Wage that Osborne introduced, full employment, and affordable houses people are able to afford their own homes and not rely upon Councils.
    George Osborne didn't introduce the living wage, he renamed the minimum wage which Conservatives opposed.
    He did introduce the Living Wage.

    The Minimum Wage tiers already existed. The Living Wage is a brand new even higher tier introduced by Osborne.
    Dancing on a pinhead.

    Why did the Tories object to the minimum wage?
    Why should we care?

    That was before I was even an adult and I've voted in six general elections since then.

    Whether a prior generation of politicians, very few of whom are still in Parliament and none of whom hold a senior role in the party anymore, opposed it or not is moot now. The Tories in Parliament today have introduced the Living Wage and uplifted the Minimum Wage faster than inflation.
    In general I am a massive fan of minimum working rights like minimum wage,pension contributions and holidays as it helps private sector workers given public sector workers always enjoy better rights . Always have to be careful though that the minimum wage and indeed minimum holiday entitlement is not used by employers in a cartel like situation to just put nearly everyone on it and thus suppress average private sector pay in everyday roles
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,446
    I cannot understand why from the 16th August anyone pinged and double vaccinated will not need to isolate

    My question then is why not from Monday
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,491
    OT I think Starmer should be given credit for raising this very issue at PMQ the week before last. Boris ignored it.

    I am afraid this is just another example of what I refer to our elected dictatorship type of democracy. Government's rule regardless of parliament and opposition opposes to everything regardless of the merit for the sake of it. So any genuine issue is just ignored. Nothing is genuinely discussed in parliament on its merits and decisions taken accordingly.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,876

    On topic, I did fear this would happen, it will get worse for a few weeks.

    It is making people nervous and scared again.

    Do you think people are nervous about being infected, getting sick and maybe dying?

    Or nervous about being pinged and having to isolate?

    People seem more worried about the latter and it messing up their plans and that's easily fixed. Stop pinging people.
    I mentioned it the other day, a pollster told me it was clear that the public were getting scared again, but not so much for themselves, the public are aware of the following facts

    1) To deal with the Delta variant you need to be jabbed twice

    2) They know 66% of adults have been double jabbed

    3) They know that we're removing pretty much all restrictions on Monday

    So they have family and friends who aren't doubled jabbed, so they worry and get scared about them. all this pinging is merely the cherry on the parfait and doesn't impact 1-3.
    1) Is not true. Yes double jabbed provides more protection but that was always the case. A single jab provides most of the protection against serious illness, just as it always did.

    An 18 year old single jabbed is at extremely low risk from Covid.

    Anyone not vaccinated should get vaccinated. Otherwise we should be done with this mess.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,516

    I cannot understand why from the 16th August anyone pinged and double vaccinated will not need to isolate

    My question then is why not from Monday

    Mine too. I’m just going to turn the app off when I go out now. It’s absurd.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,490

    GB News attracted zero viewers during some of its broadcasts this week, according to official television audience figures produced by rating agency Barb, after a viewer boycott prompted by one of its presenters taking the knee in solidarity with the England football team.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jul/15/gb-news-shows-attracted-zero-viewers-after-boycott-over-taking-the-knee

    Not going to make 6 months are they.

    Nope.
    Well if they bill themselves as an anti-woke channel (and why not?) then its best not to go more woke than your mainstream channels. Otherwise you do get precisely (or imprecisely) nil viewers
    Shades of the Scottish Liberal Democrats successfully branding themselves as a reliable centre-left, pro-Scottish party, requiring several decades of back-breaking hard work by Steel, Wallace et al, only to see their monument destructed in the blink of an eye by Pussy Clegg joining the Alsatian Cat-consuming Coalition.

    If you brand yourself as Product A, it is profoundly unwise to behave like Product B.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,008
    Taz said:

    Absolutely agree with this. I’m double jabbed and am tempted to delete the app now.

    I've just deleted mine.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,446
    Taz said:

    I cannot understand why from the 16th August anyone pinged and double vaccinated will not need to isolate

    My question then is why not from Monday

    Mine too. I’m just going to turn the app off when I go out now. It’s absurd.
    To be honest I cannot understand why anyone who has been double vaccinated retains the app, unless they have serious other medical issues
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,282
    Charles said:

    I deleted the App 24 hours after installing it last year. I could see what was coming.

    Now that we have vaccines, testing is a waste of time. We don't test people for flu.

    We need to snap out of this fear-laden doom-mongered mindset. And live.

    I know this bit is controversial, but if I've caught covid I shan't inform anyone. I'll wear a mask out and about including at the shops and that's it.

    And, once again, knowingly put people at risk of catching a highly transmissible and potentially fatal deal is evil.

    If you know you have the bug then the only right thing to do is self isolate.

    Everything else is fine.
    Charles, the NHS are having to instruct medical staff to delete the NHS Track and Trace App because too many medical staff are being exposed to it.

    Not having the app to ping means that they can continue to treat medically vulnerable and seriously ill patients and likely expose them to Covid.

    So we're back to two schools of thought. On one hand everyone should already have been jabbed by now, which makes them invulnerable so stop testing and let nature take its course. On the other hand your comments about evil.

    I'm glad I am not a medic. Unlike the "pray the pox away" brigade on here they know how bad this is. And your government have put them in the position of don't get pinghed, keep working and likely cause harm, or get pinged, don't work and the hospital is so short of medics that it will likely cause harm.
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