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With 11 days until “Freedom Day” Ipsos finds a significant proportion backing permanent controls – p
With 11 days until “Freedom Day” Ipsos finds a significant proportion backing permanent controls – politicalbetting.com
New poling by Ipsos MORI for The Economist finds backing for extending certain restrictions to stop the spread of COVID in the short-term while it is still posing a risk, however, there is much less support for these measures to remain in place permanently.
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Wonder whether this was a Yes Minister style survey
- Do you think vulnerable people have a right to life?
- Do you think it is ok to put other people at risk of death from Covid?
- Do you think it is ok to put other people at risk from other conditions such as flu?
- Do you agree that mask use reduces risks to others?
- Do you support mask use forever?
The public has this wrong.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5jBUr9WQAEwiwm?format=png&name=small
Alternatively, as @CJTerry on Twitter just put it: "Honestly think an underrated aspect of covid polling is the extent to which polling is used as a form of signalling, in this case to basically say 'just do whatever thing makes us secure'. "
IMO there has been no legitimate argument made to stop wearing them, even at the presser the other day it was very much 'we won't enforce it by law, but we still want you to keep wearing them'.
Where there is legitimate debate about what is necessary/possible
(PS Yes, I am pretty sure.)
No-one is suggesting that wearing a mask be made illegal, in the same way that no-one is suggesting that attendance at nightclubs be compulsory.
A little known fact is that you can get a 100 people to answer a single question for $10 on Google Consumer surveys. There are some limitations - most prominently a tight character limit. But they have some statistics arguing that their surveys are decently representative. If anyone is up for it, it wouldn't be too hard to reproduce one of these items (at least, the shortest one lol). The way their pricing works, the first question is cheap but you pay a lot for for the second and subsequent questions.
Since I came on here a couple of years ago I've thought there must be some way to use that for betting as well. But its probably against their terms.
Well, I suspect that Norman Tebbit might mention this, given that the leading lights in it were pretty much all from the "progressive" end of the spectrum.
PT below is right - This poll is WRONG , the governmnet needs to have the resolve to stick to its July 19th plan and end all restrictions. It will be Johnsons Churchill moment he craves
But the long sweep... two steps forward, one step back and all that. Think of it like the stock market, there will periods of bear markets and even (temporary) crashes but overall the long-term direction is clear.
To be fair, in 1939 I would not have been so sure about social attitudes progressing... but then again in 1930 I would not have been so sure about the stock market always rising in the long-term.
Currently there is a campaign to protect 16 and 17 year olds from consensual marriage; but no such campaign to protect them from consensual sex in any form. Which is the liberal and progressive view?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/17/eugenics-skeleton-rattles-loudest-closet-left
I think it's pretty clear that social attitudes today haven't moved their way on that!
Certainly even the government is still committed to mandatory quarantine for travellers to red list countries and for unvaccinated travellers to Amber list countries for the foreseeable future
@Dr_D_Robertson
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A reminder that the decision on Step 4 *has not yet been taken*. Ministers will be looking at the data and projections before their announcement on Monday.
To be honest the one area I do think they are particularly vulnerable is masks on public transport. Because this is going to be the biggest area that employees cite for refusing to come into the office if employers want it. Employers will have far more of an awkward time with these people, than they will with those who don’t want to go on public transport if they have to wear a mask. Not that anyone’s enforcing it at the moment, mind.
The way cases are going up (and given the argument against opening up seems to be: "Long covid!", so cases are important), then fettling around the edges are irrelevant. If you are worried about cases, then we need to lock down now, hard. Any opening up goes directly against the aim of decreasing cases.
It does seem like some people just want to bash the government - they want to say we can open up (because the public like that), but also say we need to worry about cases - so they can bash the government. The compromise is to fettle around the edges. Which does f'all to reduce cases.
Which is the mess RP got into (in my view, at least) the other day.
Do you really fancy using the tube right now? I don’t. Masks would help.
Pretty much by definition change is defined as 'progressive' and over time things change, even if we tend to forget those issues of change that were rejected like communism, eugenics, paedophilia and others.
*there may also be an element of “I can’t do any of these fun things like socialising, going to crowded places, going on holiday... that I’m damned if I’m going to let other people do so just because they aren’t as scared as I am)
Now: if you're being really brave, you'd suggest not playing the football on TV, to stop all the stupidity that pointless event is causing... (*)
(*) Go England!
Even after masks were recommended but before they were mandated the take-up of masks was miniscule. More are now according to this survey wanting masks to remain than voluntary wore masks when it was a recommended personal choice.
I have little doubt that by Christmas much fewer than 40% of shoppers will be wearing masks.
As to the argument that mask restrictions should be kept becasue it may stop some people getting covid then the logical thing is to impose all restrictions again as that will stop more people getting covid. Johnson just needs to be brave and people will get used to no restrictions pretty soon - and like it
And finally everyone breaks rules (Hancock /Cummings /That SNP woman etc and these were the ones caught ) rules shoudl therefore be only made when really necessary .Mask wearing is not in this league of necessity anymore if it ever were
Some on the 'left' were in favour of Stalin's gulags - that doesn't make it a liberal or progressive idea.
This is not about left or right per se (although it seems those railing against liberal/progressive attitudes are mainly on the right these days).
My point is that the long rise of liberal/progressive ideas and attitudes has been unstoppable since the Enlightenment and remains so for the foreseeable future, notwithstanding periodic challenges and setbacks.
They don’t believe the vaccines will protect them (even though they aren’t anti vax and have had their jabs) but are reading every bit of negativity about how scary Covid is they can find. And they don’t have to go far to find it of course - the Guardian and isage Twitter will do.
And even though people can buy FFP3 masks if they're that concerned.
That's a fair point Philip, 'progressive' is a debatable term but honestly I think most if us know what (in this universe at least) is meant by it today.
I could understand people supporting these options until Covid-19 was under control globally, from a cautious viewpoint, but it's the figures for permanently that scare me a bit.
Eugenics absolutely was a Progressive idea when it was first proposed.
And Harriet Harman and others who worked in Liberty's predecessor group were associated for years with the Paedophile Information Exchange, with many progressives considering paedophilia like homosexuality as something that needed to be legalised. Attitudes have gone the complete opposite direction on that one since the 70s, we're more concerned about paedophilia now not less.
It would cost absolutely nothing to retain masks on the tube and other enclosed environments. It has to be compulsory. It’s not the people that wear them voluntarily that are the concern.
This government has foolishly created incentives for many to stay at home.
Others wearing masks is not a symbol of personal safety, if it was the pandemic would have been over a year ago. Vaccinations are what leads to personal safety.
If you want to be safe then get your jab. The rest of the crap is irrelevant and needs to go.
Such as the approach to multiculturalism that actually opposed integration into the community - stating that encouraging people to learn English was racist....
Or the strand of American style race relations that argue for err... separation of minorities. Remember "Black Sections" for the Labour party?
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/majority-britons-support-extending-certain-covid-19-restrictions-not-forever
Note this is an exclusively online poll which I think really matters here. Anyone you interviewed on the street would necessarily be brave enough to go out into the street.
Pensioners wanting restrictions for younger folk when they’ve all been double vaccinated is a very poor basis on which to make public policy.
I’d make a couple of points:
1. Much of our current morality is made easier by our prosperity. People who live in societies closer to subsistence than we do, will have harsher attitudes the poor, single mothers, the disabled etc. They will also view seizing their neighbours’ territory far more favourably than we would, because all these things help them to survive.
But, what if our prosperity should fail? Might we revert to older values?
2. It’s easy to think that because things are moving in a particular direction, they will continue in that direction. But, there can be very abrupt and unexpected reversals.
Doctors suspect links between Covid-19 and erectile dysfunction, with anecdotal accounts suggesting that growing numbers of men afflicted by the virus are complaining about the condition.
Medics want more studies to explore a suspected correlation between men who contracted the virus and went on to develop pneumonia, which can trigger inflammation of the blood vessels, and the condition. Another hypothesis is that Covid-19 may damage the Leydig cells that produce testosterone.
Dr Ryan Berglund, a urologist at the Cleveland Clinic, told the Los Angeles Times that erectile dysfunction could occur from Covid-19 in a similar way to inflammation of the heart muscle, or myocarditis. “It’s the blood vessels themselves that can become inflamed, which could cause an obstructive phenomenon and negatively impact the ability to get erections,” he said.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-linked-to-erectile-dysfunction-dd5zjwkzv
If you're says that mask wearing needs to be compulsory then you're telling people that vaccines don't work. That we aren't safe.
It's not true. Vaccines work. We'll have much fewer deaths with vaccines and without masks than we ever had with masks and without vaccines.
A cheap, fiddly piece of cloth is not an alternative to being vaccinated.
At the moment we see the growth of two-income households as evidence of social progress, but perhaps people will look back on our era and think we were crazy.
A lot of people are asking me what I think will happen.
I have absolutely no idea.
And neither do you.
https://twitter.com/DrNeilStone/status/1413196961822527489?s=20
I have been fully vaccinated since March 11th, but others might not be. Others might be for example immunosuppressed or have an underlying condition which means they can't have the vaccine or it doesn't work as well.
In my view it would be incredibly selfish of me to go on a bus and not wear a mask. But others may feel differently, it's up to each individual and their own conscience.
The number of new Covid-19 cases on July 20th in the UK, the day after freedom day.
Johnson & Co themselves framed the debate as the 'safety' of lockdown versus the 'risk' of freedom. They have done that for a year and a half.
Now of course with the debt ballooning and the economy nowhere near full speed, the government are forced to admit this that was a completely false choice.
Far from being 'safe' , long-term restrictions on freedom and businesses are ruinous and utterly reckless gamble with any nation's finance.
The thing is they can hardly point this out when they have been lying through their teeth to the electorate about the real choices we face for f8cking ever.
Anyway my firm has pocketed the dividend of less office space. So compulsory daily commuting is less of a thing. The Whistlestop shop in Victoria and commercial landlords will suffer commercially.
The virus is going to go wild now as it burns through antivaxxers etc. I have absolutely zero intentions of protecting an antivaxxer.
Given the prevalence of virus in the community then anyone immunosuppressed should probably be shielding for the next few weeks until the virus burns out and then they'll be safe to come out since this will be over. Me wearing a mask does not prevent someone immunosuppressed getting the virus.
Johnson has spent the last 18 months hiding the ruinous impact of the government's policies just to get from one day to the next. All that rhetoric about the putting his arms around people and the awesome power of the treasury.
He richly deserves anything that is coming his way. He created his audience, he created and fostered their dependence along with the idiot MPs who supported him.
Now, the implications of his Faustian pact with the socialist Mephistopheles could be about the engulf him. Along with every Western leader who took the CCP method coolaid.
- Alan Grant (Sam Neill) in Jurassic Park 3.
There’s a big opportunity for a commercial landlord to convert an office block into a cheap hotel in the middle of the City, to accommodate those coming in for their two or three days a week in the office, who need nothing more than somewhere to lay their head down for a few hours.
But I think it will be 2010-15 redux. The Tories will portray themselves as making tough choices and hard decisions and Labour will scream about austerity all over again. And the Tories will win the next election comfortably.
It's not the debt or the economy that is the big difference it is that the vaccines have changed things. The vaccines have worked and thanks to that we are now unlocking.
They haven't lied to anyone. The lockdown was to keep people safe until the vaccines were rolled out, well now it's Mission Accomplished.
The insight you've arrived at is that pandemics are undesirable and it is better, on balance, not to have them.
Congrats.