The formal US protest to the UK (démarche) is very rare,especially among allies. It marks the UK’s new & unwanted reputation as a nation whose word cannot be trusted,signing a treaty it broke almost immediately & refusing to recognise the impact on law in Europe. Hard to recover. https://twitter.com/BillNeelyReport/status/1402963773741219840
The formal US protest to the UK (démarche) is very rare,especially among allies. It marks the UK’s new & unwanted reputation as a nation whose word cannot be trusted,signing a treaty it broke almost immediately & refusing to recognise the impact on law in Europe. Hard to recover. https://twitter.com/BillNeelyReport/status/1402963773741219840
The US have already denied there was a demarche, but you do you!
As our data from July 2020 shows, the proportion of both Conservative and Labour voters who view the United States as more of an ally has increased in the time since Joe Biden was elected President of the United States—from 58% to 65% for Conservative voters and 33% to 48% for Labour voters. This suggests that the UK is more open to closer relations with the United States now that Donald Trump is no longer in power, though some Labour voters continue to oppose this prospect regardless.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
The thing is one thing fuels another.
Remainers saying "they're no longer British" and then arguing for the vote to be overturned fuelled charges of treason.
Leavers attacking every institution that put caveats or limits on the interpretation of the vote similarly infuriated Remainers and made them want to disassociate themselves from a decision they couldn't understand or identify with.
Well that’s me on this Board in 2021 saying as such.
I don’t remember a mass disavowal of citizenship in the wake of the vote, so your post just reads like a rewrite of history, if not victim blaming.
The Mail’s editorial (not wholly separable from govt comms policy) during this period was truly sickening. And even May was not immune, with disastrous criticisms of “citizens of nowhere” and grotesque suggestions that the EU was interfering in the 2017 election.
Her citizens of nowhere comment related to big business not paying their share if tax didn’t it?
I believe she meant something along those lines.
But within the toxic discourse of the post-referendum period, it carried other, terrifyingly inflammatory connotations.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
No decent rivers?
The swerving Wye at Tintern, the emerald Thames valley in Oxfordshire, the Teign tumbling across Dartmoor, the salmon-leaping Tweed in the Borders, the exquisite coves of the Fal in Cornwall, the dappled trout-fisheries of the Test, the mighty Tyne as it rolls under the bridge at Newcastle....
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
The thing is one thing fuels another.
Remainers saying "they're no longer British" and then arguing for the vote to be overturned fuelled charges of treason.
Leavers attacking every institution that put caveats or limits on the interpretation of the vote similarly infuriated Remainers and made them want to disassociate themselves from a decision they couldn't understand or identify with.
Well that’s me on this Board in 2021 saying as such.
I don’t remember a mass disavowal of citizenship in the wake of the vote, so your post just reads like a rewrite of history, if not victim blaming.
The Mail’s editorial (not wholly separable from govt comms policy) during this period was truly sickening. And even May was not immune, with disastrous criticisms of “citizens of nowhere” and grotesque suggestions that the EU was interfering in the 2017 election.
Her citizens of nowhere comment related to big business not paying their share if tax didn’t it?
I believe she meant something along those lines.
But within the toxic discourse of the post-referendum period, it carried other, terrifyingly inflammatory connotations.
But people who wanted a second referendum wilfully misunderstood her comments so as to pour petrol on any Brexit induced fireworks. And they were clever people, they just could not stomach being defeated.
Hence Boris, 80 seat majority, and the Brexit we have now.
Doesn't mean that they all have Covid. Only takes one child to test positive for an entire year group "bubble" to be sent home.
True, but still an alarmingly high number
We may have to mandate vaccines for anyone who wants to do anything
A quick Twitter search on "delta variant" produces some scary stuff
"I do not say this lightly, but the delta variant is a seriously horrible development in terms of global health. More transmissible, more dangerous, but blunted and controlled by vaccines. We need to get those vaccines to where they are needed"
Or we do the opposite. Recognise that we have vaccinated the vulnerable, drop the concepts of bubbles and self-isolation from proximity and if it spreads it spreads and burns out.
It seems to be that a major part of the problem is the continuing failure to distinguish between vaxxed and non-vaxxed for things like self isolation etc. It means thing like rising cases represent a problem in themselves, regardless of the public health consequences because current policies require people, under criminal penalty from non compliance, to isolate when coming into contact, regardless of their vaccine status. This is bonkers.
There could be no public health risks at all, and the economy could still be brought to a grinding halt.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
Come up here to the Rough Bounds of Moidart and say that.
And the sea's fine, just get in.
Preferences are personal. But Brits do have this idiotic tendency to bash how wonderful Britain truly is. While many Brits might prefer to live elsewhere, there are many Americans, Spaniards, French, Italians etc... who would prefer to be in Britain.
Is Britain the best? There is no "Best". Does Britain have stunning natural beauty, great food, great culture, great science, great fundamental infrastructure for life? In any impartial analysis, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.
Of course, you may be skeptical as this is coming from an expat washed up on US shores. But I have lived in 7 countries, and spent more than passing time in another 50. Britain is definitely in the top bracket.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
Come up here to the Rough Bounds of Moidart and say that.
And the sea's fine, just get in.
Scotland! We haven't been allowed to travel through our own country for part of the year thanks to Sturgeon.
I have been looking at the islands on the west coast though. Mull, Skye, Harris, even. I would like to visit the area.
That area and Cornwall are perhaps the only parts of the UK that could get my juices flowing. And Cornwall will be chock-a-block this year.
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
No decent rivers?
The swerving Wye at Tintern, the emerald Thames valley in Oxfordshire, the Teign tumbling across Dartmoor, the salmon-leaping Tweed in the Borders, the exquisite coves of the Fal in Cornwall, the dappled trout-fisheries of the Test, the mighty Tyne as it rolls under the bridge at Newcastle....
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
Come up here to the Rough Bounds of Moidart and say that.
And the sea's fine, just get in.
Preferences are personal. But Brits do have this idiotic tendency to bash how wonderful Britain truly is. While many Brits might prefer to live elsewhere, there are many Americans, Spaniards, French, Italians etc... who would prefer to be in Britain.
Is Britain the best? There is no "Best". Does Britain have stunning natural beauty, great food, great culture, great science, great fundamental infrastructure for life? In any impartial analysis, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.
Of course, you may be skeptical as this is coming from an expat washed up on US shores. But I have lived in 7 countries, and spent more than passing time in another 50. Britain is definitely in the top bracket.
I agree - the landscape and coast in Britain are particuarly amazing and diverse. You need to spend time in a flat, boring country to truly realise this. Interesting architecture, decent food, good infrastructure to get around also count massively in its favour.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
"It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa." Well - yes - and you kind of make my point for me. If you live in Iowa you can travel to Yellowstone. Or to New York, or to Florida, San Francisco or to Yosemite. No wonder many Americans don't feel the need to have passport.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
The thing is one thing fuels another.
Remainers saying "they're no longer British" and then arguing for the vote to be overturned fuelled charges of treason.
Leavers attacking every institution that put caveats or limits on the interpretation of the vote similarly infuriated Remainers and made them want to disassociate themselves from a decision they couldn't understand or identify with.
Well that’s me on this Board in 2021 saying as such.
I don’t remember a mass disavowal of citizenship in the wake of the vote, so your post just reads like a rewrite of history, if not victim blaming.
The Mail’s editorial (not wholly separable from govt comms policy) during this period was truly sickening. And even May was not immune, with disastrous criticisms of “citizens of nowhere” and grotesque suggestions that the EU was interfering in the 2017 election.
Her citizens of nowhere comment related to big business not paying their share if tax didn’t it?
I believe she meant something along those lines.
But within the toxic discourse of the post-referendum period, it carried other, terrifyingly inflammatory connotations.
But people who wanted a second referendum wilfully misunderstood her comments so as to pour petrol on any Brexit induced fireworks. And they were clever people, they just could not stomach being defeated.
Hence Boris, 80 seat majority, and the Brexit we have now.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
Come up here to the Rough Bounds of Moidart and say that.
And the sea's fine, just get in.
Are you going to write us an autoptic account of your circumnavigation of Britain in the manner of Pytheas' lost Περὶ Τοῦ Ὠκεανοῦ?
It is not obvious to me why those who question the character and direction of this country in the past few years should be assumed to believe it is “a shithole”.
"It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa." Well - yes - and you kind of make my point for me. If you live in Iowa you can travel to Yellowstone. Or to New York, or to Florida, San Francisco or to Yosemite. No wonder many Americans don't feel the need to have passport.
And what makes America "United" is freedom of movement
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
Come up here to the Rough Bounds of Moidart and say that.
And the sea's fine, just get in.
Preferences are personal. But Brits do have this idiotic tendency to bash how wonderful Britain truly is. While many Brits might prefer to live elsewhere, there are many Americans, Spaniards, French, Italians etc... who would prefer to be in Britain.
Is Britain the best? There is no "Best". Does Britain have stunning natural beauty, great food, great culture, great science, great fundamental infrastructure for life? In any impartial analysis, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.
Of course, you may be skeptical as this is coming from an expat washed up on US shores. But I have lived in 7 countries, and spent more than passing time in another 50. Britain is definitely in the top bracket.
I agree with you. But Britain’s appeal lies in being mostly harmless, like the Earth in Hitchhikers. There isnt so much of the wow factor that you get in Venice or the Alps or Yellowstone or New York or Norway, but you have a lot of charmingly pleasant and inoffensive countryside.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
No decent rivers?
The swerving Wye at Tintern, the emerald Thames valley in Oxfordshire, the Teign tumbling across Dartmoor, the salmon-leaping Tweed in the Borders, the exquisite coves of the Fal in Cornwall, the dappled trout-fisheries of the Test, the mighty Tyne as it rolls under the bridge at Newcastle....
No decent rivers! Pah
Verses the Dordogne or Ardeche? Come on!
France is a bigger country, with much grander scenery; but Britain is also beautiful, just in a different, quieter way
And parts of the Hebrides are as epic and poetic as anywhere on earth. St Kilda is globally peerless. And Foula!
Also Suffolk. Magical in places, quite magical - ditto Herefordshire
"It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa." Well - yes - and you kind of make my point for me. If you live in Iowa you can travel to Yellowstone. Or to New York, or to Florida, San Francisco or to Yosemite. No wonder many Americans don't feel the need to have passport.
And what makes America "United" is freedom of movement
I bet someone somewhere would have a picture of a very chubby Boris with his breasts (moobs) visible through his t-shirt.
I can't understand why anyone objects to the term breasts.
You have to know the long tangled history of Wokeness to know why some terms are correct and some offensive
Given that you support all this, you maybe need to do some research?
I don't support all this.
I support tackling racism, sexism etc and recognise those are real problems that need to be dealt with.
That doesn't mean I support every element of crazy. Its not all or nothing you know, its possible to give an inch but refuse a mile.
As I have said it's an overshoot, which all movements and especially movements for change have. It's to jolt the @Leons of this world (I say of this world, any minute now I'm hoping some of his alien buddies will make contact and it will be all round to theirs for beers).
There is a problem with racism. In this country things are a lot better than they were and a lot better than other countries. But there remains a problem. Same with other forms of discrimination. We need the suffragettes to be "out there" so we can move forward but not to the extent that the outriders want or say they want.
@Leaon et al are, as tbf is typical of PB, mostly dinosaurs in this regard. Hugely amiable ones, but dinosaurs nevertheless.
@Leon is provocative and seems to enjoy winding people up which is all very entertaining. but absolutely correct about the woke.
It's a good question for the EU and one that I thought at the time these treaties were negotiated. Should they have gone for arrangements that might stick for longer but were less favourable?
The assumption behind the question reflects very badly on the UK government, which should give Allister Health and his ilk pause for thought, but clearly doesn't. The assumption is that the UK are incompetent negotiators acting in bad faith, who never had any intention of honouring its treaty commitments. And should never have been believed.
"The EU should have enough self-awareness to understand that the deal it obtained was too good to be true" -- really do recommend this tub-thumper from @AllisterHeath in @Telegraph. It'll drive some mad, but I'd bet majority in UK feel this way.
Strikes me that the UK were competent negotiators acting in bad faith, who never had any intention of honouring its treaty commitments.
If you can get what you want via committing to a "price" that you don't intend to pay and have plans to wrangle your way out of, it may be disreputable, it may not be pleasant, but its not incompetent. Its actually very competent realpolitik.
PS all nations and organisations including the EU have form in this so drop the mock horror at the UK doing it. Remember the EU negotiating for Blair to give away half our rebate in exchange for CAP being reformed? Then saying CAP wouldn't be reformed? What's sauce for the goose is good for the gander.
Actually I think you may not be that far from the truth. But that assumes the current protocol situation is just fine from the UK government's PoV and their complaints about it are just performative. Allister Heath can be usefully relied on to maintain the fiction by weighing in. Obviously bad for Northern Ireland, but Johnson and his base don't care about them and also bad for the integrity of the UK but Johnson explicitly chose the division of his own country over any requirement to align with EU regs. That's the basis and possible success of his Brexit approach.
Well precisely.
Though I think you can reconcile all of it with complaints being legitimate. Simply sign the treaty agreeing to the Protocol knowing full well the Protocol would never be workable (and you have no intention of making it work) and that you can then legitimately complain its unworkable down the road.
Which again is no different really to the UK agreeing to give away half the rebate for reform of the CAP, only to have it said that there is never going to be that reform the second the ink was dry on us giving away the rebate.
I think it's more that Johnson can't admit to choosing to split the country rather than maintain alignment with EU veterinary standards. Even to himself. Hence the performative arguments with the EU and broken treaty commitments to cover his tracks. That they play well with his base is a double win!
@Philip_Thompson re last thread. Sorry I didn't reply to your reply to me about the negotiations re NI part of Brexit. After I made my post I noted a comment you made to someone else and thought you might come back to me with that reply.
Reluctantly I do completely agree with the logic of your argument in those circumstances. Obviously we should never have got into that pickle in the first place and I don't agree with negotiating in bad faith, but I can see the lack of alternatives. Doesn't bode well for future agreements though.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
No decent rivers?
The swerving Wye at Tintern, the emerald Thames valley in Oxfordshire, the Teign tumbling across Dartmoor, the salmon-leaping Tweed in the Borders, the exquisite coves of the Fal in Cornwall, the dappled trout-fisheries of the Test, the mighty Tyne as it rolls under the bridge at Newcastle....
No decent rivers! Pah
Verses the Dordogne or Ardeche? Come on!
France is a bigger country, with much grander scenery; but Britain is also beautiful, just in a different, quieter way
And parts of the Hebrides are as epic and poetic as anywhere on earth. St Kilda is globally peerless. And Foula!
Also Suffolk. Magical in places, quite magical - ditto Herefordshire
You need to explore the UK a bit more
Perhaps a small wildlife cruise round the Scottish islands might suit me. Especially if whales are involved.
Here is one bit of "wokeness" that will get even those of us of moderate views swivelling our eyes like a Daily Express reader: Apparently the phrase "breast feeding" is to be replaced in NHS hospitals with "chest feeding" and mothers in maternity units must not be referred to as such, but as "persons" amongst other nonsense. Who makes this stuff up?
Probably the Daily Express
Nope, this was told to me by a midwife at one of the hospitals. It is now a disciplinary offence there to say "breast milk"
Are you sure? Wasn't this found to be a garbled version of some bland advice ... possibly in Brighton?
Sorry, just come back to this. It was a reliable source that told me that this is not bland advice, but edict, and a major maternity centre near me
"It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa." Well - yes - and you kind of make my point for me. If you live in Iowa you can travel to Yellowstone. Or to New York, or to Florida, San Francisco or to Yosemite. No wonder many Americans don't feel the need to have passport.
And what makes America "United" is freedom of movement
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
Come up here to the Rough Bounds of Moidart and say that.
And the sea's fine, just get in.
Are you going to write us an autoptic account of your circumnavigation of Britain in the manner of Pytheas' lost Περὶ Τοῦ Ὠκεανοῦ?
Can't answer for @Ishmael_Z, obvs, but I won't be.
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
Change the guidance on AZ and the supply problem disappears.
The thing that always entrances me about the UK scenery, particularly when returning, is its human scale. There is something very reassuringly comfortable about it.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
Come up here to the Rough Bounds of Moidart and say that.
And the sea's fine, just get in.
Are you going to write us an autoptic account of your circumnavigation of Britain in the manner of Pytheas' lost Περὶ Τοῦ Ὠκεανοῦ?
Can't answer for @Ishmael_Z, obvs, but I won't be.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
No decent rivers?
The swerving Wye at Tintern, the emerald Thames valley in Oxfordshire, the Teign tumbling across Dartmoor, the salmon-leaping Tweed in the Borders, the exquisite coves of the Fal in Cornwall, the dappled trout-fisheries of the Test, the mighty Tyne as it rolls under the bridge at Newcastle....
No decent rivers! Pah
Verses the Dordogne or Ardeche? Come on!
France is a bigger country, with much grander scenery; but Britain is also beautiful, just in a different, quieter way
And parts of the Hebrides are as epic and poetic as anywhere on earth. St Kilda is globally peerless. And Foula!
Also Suffolk. Magical in places, quite magical - ditto Herefordshire
You need to explore the UK a bit more
I remember coming back from the (Candadian) rockies to Mull. Both majestic - Canada on a huge scale, Scotland on a more profound one, somehow.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
No decent rivers?
The swerving Wye at Tintern, the emerald Thames valley in Oxfordshire, the Teign tumbling across Dartmoor, the salmon-leaping Tweed in the Borders, the exquisite coves of the Fal in Cornwall, the dappled trout-fisheries of the Test, the mighty Tyne as it rolls under the bridge at Newcastle....
No decent rivers! Pah
Verses the Dordogne or Ardeche? Come on!
France is a bigger country, with much grander scenery; but Britain is also beautiful, just in a different, quieter way
And parts of the Hebrides are as epic and poetic as anywhere on earth. St Kilda is globally peerless. And Foula!
Also Suffolk. Magical in places, quite magical - ditto Herefordshire
You need to explore the UK a bit more
To be fair, getting to either St Kilda or Foula is a bit of a mission.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
The thing is one thing fuels another.
Remainers saying "they're no longer British" and then arguing for the vote to be overturned fuelled charges of treason.
Leavers attacking every institution that put caveats or limits on the interpretation of the vote similarly infuriated Remainers and made them want to disassociate themselves from a decision they couldn't understand or identify with.
Well that’s me on this Board in 2021 saying as such.
I don’t remember a mass disavowal of citizenship in the wake of the vote, so your post just reads like a rewrite of history, if not victim blaming.
The Mail’s editorial (not wholly separable from govt comms policy) during this period was truly sickening. And even May was not immune, with disastrous criticisms of “citizens of nowhere” and grotesque suggestions that the EU was interfering in the 2017 election.
Her citizens of nowhere comment related to big business not paying their share if tax didn’t it?
I believe she meant something along those lines.
But within the toxic discourse of the post-referendum period, it carried other, terrifyingly inflammatory connotations.
But people who wanted a second referendum wilfully misunderstood her comments so as to pour petrol on any Brexit induced fireworks. And they were clever people, they just could not stomach being defeated.
Hence Boris, 80 seat majority, and the Brexit we have now.
Our crooked system says hello.
2014 - UKIP win Euro Elections under PR 2015 - CON promising a referendum win GE under FPTP 2016 - LEAVE win binary referendum 2017 - CON & LAB promising to respect LEAVE vote poll 84% under FPTP May 2019 - BREXIT PARTY win Euros under PR Dec 2019 - CON ‘Get Brexit Done’ win 80 seat majority under FPTP
Doesn’t it make you think the country wanted to leave the EU?
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
The virus is filling in the bubbles where there isn't enough protection, but then running into a wall of herd immunity. This couldn't happen March 2020 or January.
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
Change the guidance on AZ and the supply problem disappears.
Actually it is implement the guidance as written.....
"the JCVI has advised a preference for adults aged 30 to 39 without underlying health conditions to receive an alternative to the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine – where available and only if this does not cause substantial delays in being vaccinated."
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
"It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa." Well - yes - and you kind of make my point for me. If you live in Iowa you can travel to Yellowstone. Or to New York, or to Florida, San Francisco or to Yosemite. No wonder many Americans don't feel the need to have passport.
This is just a function of lockdown. We are trapped on our island so it does feel limiting - like you I am desperate to see the beaches of Portugal, the vineyards of the Rhone, the brasseries of Paris, the Dolomites soaring over the meadows, a trattoria in Trastevere....
This will all open to us again, soon enough, and we will remember how lucky we are to live in Europe, where all this is on our doorstep - and we can hop there in an hour or two, and see any kind of scenery except desert (tho Spain comes close).
People in America are five thousand miles at least from the marvels of Europe, Australia, even more
Yet it is our backyard! - and in the meantime we have our own lovely, storied country, which is not without grave flaws but is always fascinating
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
Its like they vaccinated a load of people or something.....now about that 5m doses doing nothing.
And yet probably Bolton vaccination status is probably no better now, than vast swathes of the country. So if it was enough to stop the virus in its tracks there, how does it take serious hold elsewhere???
Other places might rise rapidly up to 2-300 per 100 thousand (7 day average) and then hit the ceiling.
Here is one bit of "wokeness" that will get even those of us of moderate views swivelling our eyes like a Daily Express reader: Apparently the phrase "breast feeding" is to be replaced in NHS hospitals with "chest feeding" and mothers in maternity units must not be referred to as such, but as "persons" amongst other nonsense. Who makes this stuff up?
Probably the Daily Express
Nope, this was told to me by a midwife at one of the hospitals. It is now a disciplinary offence there to say "breast milk"
Are you sure? Wasn't this found to be a garbled version of some bland advice ... possibly in Brighton?
Sorry, just come back to this. It was a reliable source that told me that this is not bland advice, but edict, and a major maternity centre near me
See how difficult it is to be believed when you push back against the woke?
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
Change the guidance on AZ and the supply problem disappears.
Actually it is implement the guidance as written.....
"the JCVI has advised a preference for adults aged 30 to 39 without underlying health conditions to receive an alternative to the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine – where available and only if this does not cause substantial delays in being vaccinated."
If supply is an issue the official policy is surely already to use AZ.
It clearly isn't been used, as 5m doses are sitting in a warehouse doing nothing, while they struggle to do 500k jabs a day.
Give the yuff the choice, you want a shot of AZN, you can come line up tomorrow at x. We will do as many as people turn up. If you want to wait, that's fine.
The queues will be around the block by 8am....well maybe 11am....the kids don't often get out of bed that early.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
'We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).'
Most of that's available where I live, 2 or 3hr drive max. I'll give you sea is freezing.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
"It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa." Well - yes - and you kind of make my point for me. If you live in Iowa you can travel to Yellowstone. Or to New York, or to Florida, San Francisco or to Yosemite. No wonder many Americans don't feel the need to have passport.
This is just a function of lockdown. We are trapped on our island so it does feel limiting - like you I am desperate to see the beaches of Portugal, the vineyards of the Rhone, the brasseries of Paris, the Dolomites soaring over the meadows, a trattoria in Trastevere....
This will all open to us again, soon enough, and we will remember how lucky we are to live in Europe, where all this is on our doorstep - and we can hop there in an hour or two, and see any kind of scenery except desert (tho Spain comes close).
People in America are five thousand miles at least from the marvels of Europe, Australia, even more
Yet it is our backyard! - and in the meantime we have our own lovely, storied country, which is not without grave flaws but is always fascinating
I know it's a function of lockdown! It is my backyard because of family ties - roots. And UK is good place to make money I think.
I've always joked that I'm happy living somewhere a bit crap because getting away is so much more delicious. Unfortunately, that way of thinking is back-firing on me rather at the moment.
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
Its like they vaccinated a load of people or something.....now about that 5m doses doing nothing.
And yet probably Bolton vaccination status is probably no better now, than vast swathes of the country. So if it was enough to stop the virus in its tracks there, how does it take serious hold elsewhere???
Other places might rise rapidly up to 2-300 per 100 thousand (7 day average) and then hit the ceiling.
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
Change the guidance on AZ and the supply problem disappears.
Actually it is implement the guidance as written.....
"the JCVI has advised a preference for adults aged 30 to 39 without underlying health conditions to receive an alternative to the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine – where available and only if this does not cause substantial delays in being vaccinated."
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
The virus is filling in the bubbles where there isn't enough protection, but then running into a wall of herd immunity. This couldn't happen March 2020 or January.
Philip. Please stop talking bollox. You are obviously not a scientist. No serious scientist is using this term to describe where we are. We have reasons for cautious optimism, but we do not have herd immunity, or anywhere near it, yet.
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
Its like they vaccinated a load of people or something.....now about that 5m doses doing nothing.
And yet probably Bolton vaccination status is probably no better now, than vast swathes of the country. So if it was enough to stop the virus in its tracks there, how does it take serious hold elsewhere???
Other places might rise rapidly up to 2-300 per 100 thousand (7 day average) and then hit the ceiling.
Yes, is there any reason why Bolton is sui generis, or can we reasonably expect other areas to follow a similar path?
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
Worse than that.
There's naff all we can do about supply that will have an effect quickly. We've got about 200k mRNA doses a day, which look like they're mostly being used for first doses on thirtysomethings.
If you want to up the pace, you need to do two things- 1 Tweak the guidance back to "actually, the benefits of AZ do outweigh the risks." 2 Tweak the systems so that you can get the stockpiles out and into people.
And even those will take time- to which you have to add the time it takes for AZ to work optimally.
But both of those depend on a much harder thing- 0 Acknowledge that there's a problem.
The story the government's master story teller has told is of the brilliance of Independent Britain's Brilliant Vaccine Strategy. It's a good story, with a lot of truth in it. It's been a good strategy, but right now, not quite enough at the critical point.
But everything to do with Covid operates on a delay. Which is why you have to anticipate, which appears not to have happened.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
Come up here to the Rough Bounds of Moidart and say that.
And the sea's fine, just get in.
Are you going to write us an autoptic account of your circumnavigation of Britain in the manner of Pytheas' lost Περὶ Τοῦ Ὠκεανοῦ?
Can't answer for @Ishmael_Z, obvs, but I won't be.
Are you doing one right now? I think he is!
Naah, the East coast has always looked too boring for circumnavigation to appeal. That's probably rampant prejudice and it's absolutely fascinating out there.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
No decent rivers?
The swerving Wye at Tintern, the emerald Thames valley in Oxfordshire, the Teign tumbling across Dartmoor, the salmon-leaping Tweed in the Borders, the exquisite coves of the Fal in Cornwall, the dappled trout-fisheries of the Test, the mighty Tyne as it rolls under the bridge at Newcastle....
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
The virus is filling in the bubbles where there isn't enough protection, but then running into a wall of herd immunity. This couldn't happen March 2020 or January.
This does indeed require further analysis. Why? Interesting that the BBC has picked it up but I've not seen much elsewhere. Are any other areas following similar paths?
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
Worse than that.
There's naff all we can do about supply that will have an effect quickly. We've got about 200k mRNA doses a day, which look like they're mostly being used for first doses on thirtysomethings.
If you want to up the pace, you need to do two things- 1 Tweak the guidance back to "actually, the benefits of AZ do outweigh the risks." 2 Tweak the systems so that you can get the stockpiles out and into people.
And even those will take time- to which you have to add the time it takes for AZ to work optimally.
But both of those depend on a much harder thing- 0 Acknowledge that there's a problem.
The story the government's master story teller has told is of the brilliance of Independent Britain's Brilliant Vaccine Strategy. It's a good story, with a lot of truth in it. It's been a good strategy, but right now, not quite enough at the critical point.
But everything to do with Covid operates on a delay. Which is why you have to anticipate, which appears not to have happened.
The difference is obviously that the Indian variant has a base R0 of ~5-6. That completely shifts the balance. It now back to jab anybody anywhere anytime (and should have been a couple of weeks ago when it became clear the direction of travel).
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
Its like they vaccinated a load of people or something.....now about that 5m doses doing nothing.
And yet probably Bolton vaccination status is probably no better now, than vast swathes of the country. So if it was enough to stop the virus in its tracks there, how does it take serious hold elsewhere???
Other places might rise rapidly up to 2-300 per 100 thousand (7 day average) and then hit the ceiling.
Precisely.
Some people think 'herd immunity' is a binary all or nothing that means that its impossible for cases to rise if we have it. Its not what its ever realistically meant, if it was then all viruses with herd immunity would end up with rapid total eradication.
As a whole there is herd immunity across the adult population, but there are pockets were there isn't. So the virus can get into those pockets and burn through those pockets, but it can't exponentially rise for long because it burns out in that pocket and fails to find new hosts.
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
Worse than that.
There's naff all we can do about supply that will have an effect quickly. We've got about 200k mRNA doses a day, which look like they're mostly being used for first doses on thirtysomethings.
If you want to up the pace, you need to do two things- 1 Tweak the guidance back to "actually, the benefits of AZ do outweigh the risks." 2 Tweak the systems so that you can get the stockpiles out and into people.
And even those will take time- to which you have to add the time it takes for AZ to work optimally.
But both of those depend on a much harder thing- 0 Acknowledge that there's a problem.
The story the government's master story teller has told is of the brilliance of Independent Britain's Brilliant Vaccine Strategy. It's a good story, with a lot of truth in it. It's been a good strategy, but right now, not quite enough at the critical point.
But everything to do with Covid operates on a delay. Which is why you have to anticipate, which appears not to have happened.
But everything to do with Covid operates on a delay.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
No decent rivers?
The swerving Wye at Tintern, the emerald Thames valley in Oxfordshire, the Teign tumbling across Dartmoor, the salmon-leaping Tweed in the Borders, the exquisite coves of the Fal in Cornwall, the dappled trout-fisheries of the Test, the mighty Tyne as it rolls under the bridge at Newcastle....
No decent rivers! Pah
All 1 and a bit km of the Morar
I've just looked that up. looks interesting. That must be salt water, surely?
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
The virus is filling in the bubbles where there isn't enough protection, but then running into a wall of herd immunity. This couldn't happen March 2020 or January.
Philip. Please stop talking bollox. You are obviously not a scientist. No serious scientist is using this term to describe where we are. We have reasons for cautious optimism, but we do not have herd immunity, or anywhere near it, yet.
Some scientists are using the term, but most "scientists" who are being quoted on the media ludicrously overcautious like Independent SAGE - or simply cautious like SAGE. If you're being cautious there's no reason to use the term, even if we're there, because you're trying to nudge people remaining to still take the vaccine - but that's spin not science.
The CDC have spoken about a Herd Immunity Threshold of 75-80% and we're currently at 80% testing with antibodies.
Facebook said it will let all employees work remotely even after the pandemic if their jobs can be done out of an office, but may reduce their pay if they move to a less-expensive area
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Did you see that amazing Sam Harris quote on the Gervais podcast about the UFOS?!
One of the most startling 2 minutes of audio I have ever encountered
I did. I come from the position that Sam Harris is pretty likely to know some people with decent security clearance. Others said “ugh I don’t like that man, ergo he is lying to sell his next book”.
Equally if someone like Douglas Murray was to have said it in the Uk, I think it would be worth listening to him, even if you are a wokist and disagree with him on other things.
The real question now Leon, is not whether this will be out in the open by the next US election. I think that’s now almost certain. But in what regard it will be.
It might be “gee, UFO’s are real after all. Wonder where they come from? Perhaps we’ll never know. Oh well let’s put the kettle on”.
Then at the other end of the spectrum is the Israeli general last year with his “Galactic Federation” chat.
If (capital I capital F) as Harry Reid seems to believe, the US deep state has physical material in its possession, I expect the basic revelation on the UFO reality to crack that open fairly quickly, with whistle blowers emerging. So if we don’t hear much else by 2024 then I think the US has shitall and it’s up to the Other Side whether we ever know more than we already do.
Trials of variant Ox/AZ vaccine are going well, Sarah Gilbert reveals. Team aiming to produce jabs which work well against multiple different variants.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
Come up here to the Rough Bounds of Moidart and say that.
And the sea's fine, just get in.
Preferences are personal. But Brits do have this idiotic tendency to bash how wonderful Britain truly is. While many Brits might prefer to live elsewhere, there are many Americans, Spaniards, French, Italians etc... who would prefer to be in Britain.
Is Britain the best? There is no "Best". Does Britain have stunning natural beauty, great food, great culture, great science, great fundamental infrastructure for life? In any impartial analysis, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.
Of course, you may be skeptical as this is coming from an expat washed up on US shores. But I have lived in 7 countries, and spent more than passing time in another 50. Britain is definitely in the top bracket.
I agree with you. But Britain’s appeal lies in being mostly harmless, like the Earth in Hitchhikers. There isnt so much of the wow factor that you get in Venice or the Alps or Yellowstone or New York or Norway, but you have a lot of charmingly pleasant and inoffensive countryside.
I find, for example, the north coast of Cornwall in a storm every bit as stunning as Venice or the Alps, just in a different way.
It is funny you should say that Britain has no wow factor. I used to think that. But 1 year living in the general brownness of Yemen, and then to land at Heathrow in early May with everything in full spring green. Now that is a wow factor if you are not used to it.
So I'm very used to living with a government that I don't like. But in all honesty, what's happening now feels different. I'm not trying to score points here, I'm just telling you how it feels. You are welcome to dismiss it if you like.
I came back to the UK in 2014 after 9 years in Russia and it feels like a different country now. I was well used to demagoguery, naked corruption, crude expressions of synthesised patriotism and the laying of all ills at the feet of foreigners but I never thought I'd see it in the UK.
It's hard for me to feel any sense of loss as I never felt particularly British anyway even though I had a British passport before I upgraded as I was born in Ireland and grew up mainly in Belgium and the USA.
We liberal internationalists are unpeople who just have to wait to see in exactly what sordid manner the Johnson project eventually unravels.
But where is better? from your perspective?
America which nearly had a civil war, and 70m voted for Trump
France where Marine Le Pen could win the election, so Macron outflanks her on the right
Germany which cuddles up to Putin
Sweden? er, the hard right Sweden Democrats sometimes top the polls
I suppose there's always China. At least they have no truck with Wokeness, and they certainly know what they want
They probably shoot anti-vaxxers tho, so not great for you
I tend to think that people who think Britain a shithole haven’t spent time in shitholes except perhaps in a tourist bubble. It has plenty of downsides sure but so does everywhere.
Not a shithole but mediocre at best. Moribund.
We have no natural wildernesses. Nowhere to escape urbanisation and farmland. No proper mountains to speak of. No decent rivers. No way of escaping other humans. Sea is freezing. We are too densely populated. No weather (or too much if you like).
We have cities. That's true. London, Oxford and Cambridge are ace.
I would rather have spent the last year in ... hmmm .... The States, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Switzerland - to name but a few.
No. The word is not "mediocre", it's "mild". The weather is substantially pleasant most of the time. The countryside is pleasant. It's not Yellowstone but neither is it Iowa. The rivers are right for the size of country.
No decent rivers?
The swerving Wye at Tintern, the emerald Thames valley in Oxfordshire, the Teign tumbling across Dartmoor, the salmon-leaping Tweed in the Borders, the exquisite coves of the Fal in Cornwall, the dappled trout-fisheries of the Test, the mighty Tyne as it rolls under the bridge at Newcastle....
No decent rivers! Pah
All 1 and a bit km of the Morar
I've just looked that up. looks interesting. That must be salt water, surely?
Don't think its fully tidal as it had rapids/waterfall just before the estuary.
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
Worse than that.
There's naff all we can do about supply that will have an effect quickly. We've got about 200k mRNA doses a day, which look like they're mostly being used for first doses on thirtysomethings.
If you want to up the pace, you need to do two things- 1 Tweak the guidance back to "actually, the benefits of AZ do outweigh the risks." 2 Tweak the systems so that you can get the stockpiles out and into people.
And even those will take time- to which you have to add the time it takes for AZ to work optimally.
But both of those depend on a much harder thing- 0 Acknowledge that there's a problem.
The story the government's master story teller has told is of the brilliance of Independent Britain's Brilliant Vaccine Strategy. It's a good story, with a lot of truth in it. It's been a good strategy, but right now, not quite enough at the critical point.
But everything to do with Covid operates on a delay. Which is why you have to anticipate, which appears not to have happened.
The difference is obviously that the Indian variant has a base R0 of ~5-6. That completely shifts the balance. It now back to jab anybody anywhere anytime (and should have been a couple of weeks ago when it became clear the direction of travel).
Agreed. But that's the trouble with putting a Master Story Teller in charge (isn't that also Jeffrey Archer's self-description?)
The story is that everything's going swimmingly, we'll beat Jerry to the sunlounger et cetera. The possibility that vaccination isn't quite going well enough, or that a nasty variant has made its way into the UK, aren't really part of that story. Besides, both of those would lead to, let's say, tricky questions for the PM.
Not just me. But the Zero Covid Independent SAGE zealots get a lot more media attention than those scientists saying that we have herd immunity, so I'm not surprised at your mistake in thinking it was just me.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
The thing is one thing fuels another.
Remainers saying "they're no longer British" and then arguing for the vote to be overturned fuelled charges of treason.
Leavers attacking every institution that put caveats or limits on the interpretation of the vote similarly infuriated Remainers and made them want to disassociate themselves from a decision they couldn't understand or identify with.
Well that’s me on this Board in 2021 saying as such.
I don’t remember a mass disavowal of citizenship in the wake of the vote, so your post just reads like a rewrite of history, if not victim blaming.
The Mail’s editorial (not wholly separable from govt comms policy) during this period was truly sickening. And even May was not immune, with disastrous criticisms of “citizens of nowhere” and grotesque suggestions that the EU was interfering in the 2017 election.
Her citizens of nowhere comment related to big business not paying their share if tax didn’t it?
I believe she meant something along those lines.
But within the toxic discourse of the post-referendum period, it carried other, terrifyingly inflammatory connotations.
But people who wanted a second referendum wilfully misunderstood her comments so as to pour petrol on any Brexit induced fireworks. And they were clever people, they just could not stomach being defeated.
Hence Boris, 80 seat majority, and the Brexit we have now.
Our crooked system says hello.
2014 - UKIP win Euro Elections under PR 2015 - CON promising a referendum win GE under FPTP 2016 - LEAVE win binary referendum 2017 - CON & LAB promising to respect LEAVE vote poll 84% under FPTP May 2019 - BREXIT PARTY win Euros under PR Dec 2019 - CON ‘Get Brexit Done’ win 80 seat majority under FPTP
Doesn’t it make you think the country wanted to leave the EU?
Full marks for the data manipulation and bias. Vladimir has a job for you.
As a counterpoint, here is a bit of bias of my own in the form of a question: What percentage of the total population who could vote voted Leave in the referendum?
It is a rhetorical question, so you don't need to answer as I already know it.
Seriously though, people need to move on on the question of Brexit. To those of us that lost the argument, we need to shut up and move on.
For those of you that "won" you need to shut up as well. You claim to be patriots, but patriots should seek to unite, not to divide.
Facebook said it will let all employees work remotely even after the pandemic if their jobs can be done out of an office, but may reduce their pay if they move to a less-expensive area
That will go down like a bucket of cold sick.
Register a PO Box in California as your address. Move somewhere cheap. Use a VPN. Profit.
Not just me. But the Zero Covid Independent SAGE zealots get a lot more media attention than those scientists saying that we have herd immunity, so I'm not surprised at your mistake in thinking it was just me.
We're not at herd immunity for delta the Indian variant. Lever edge might be locally mind.
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
Worse than that.
There's naff all we can do about supply that will have an effect quickly. We've got about 200k mRNA doses a day, which look like they're mostly being used for first doses on thirtysomethings.
If you want to up the pace, you need to do two things- 1 Tweak the guidance back to "actually, the benefits of AZ do outweigh the risks." 2 Tweak the systems so that you can get the stockpiles out and into people.
And even those will take time- to which you have to add the time it takes for AZ to work optimally.
But both of those depend on a much harder thing- 0 Acknowledge that there's a problem.
The story the government's master story teller has told is of the brilliance of Independent Britain's Brilliant Vaccine Strategy. It's a good story, with a lot of truth in it. It's been a good strategy, but right now, not quite enough at the critical point.
But everything to do with Covid operates on a delay. Which is why you have to anticipate, which appears not to have happened.
The difference is obviously that the Indian variant has a base R0 of ~5-6. That completely shifts the balance. It now back to jab anybody anywhere anytime (and should have been a couple of weeks ago when it became clear the direction of travel).
Agreed. But that's the trouble with putting a Master Story Teller in charge (isn't that also Jeffrey Archer's self-description?)
The most acute political commentary on Trump I ever read was by Cher who said, "Donald Trump's punishment is being Donald Trump."
The same is true of Johnson. He has to exist in an increasingly elaborate fabricated reality.
Facebook said it will let all employees work remotely even after the pandemic if their jobs can be done out of an office, but may reduce their pay if they move to a less-expensive area
That will go down like a bucket of cold sick.
London calling, London calling.....
To all those who expected WFH to be roses, roses all the way - I Told You So, You F&*king Fools.
"With WFH we can employ people who live in the bits of the UK where you can buy houses BOGOF for £500. So we expect our staff to live there and get paid accordingly"
Facebook said it will let all employees work remotely even after the pandemic if their jobs can be done out of an office, but may reduce their pay if they move to a less-expensive area
That will go down like a bucket of cold sick.
Register a PO Box in California as your address. Move somewhere cheap. Use a VPN. Profit.
I think Facebook might ask for a bit more proof of your residency....and the IRS and state tax officials would also take a keen interest.
Not just me. But the Zero Covid Independent SAGE zealots get a lot more media attention than those scientists saying that we have herd immunity, so I'm not surprised at your mistake in thinking it was just me.
Ironically the scientist making that claim, Karl Friston, is on Cosplay SAGE.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
Mr. Walker, she thrice put it to the Commons and a combination of Conservative MPs rebelling and the Labour Party (and other opposition MPs) en masse voted it down.
I said at the time that when you've got MPs who really like the EU and MPs who really dislike the EU voting the same way, someone's screwing it up.
The dumb soft pro-EU MPs of the Commons rejected everything and guaranteed that we'd leave on harder terms. It was epitomised by the lauded Grieve shrieking it was 'too late' when he was given the exact concession he'd asked for, but still didn't vote for it.
I know this is going over old ground, but people generally should try to at least learn something from it. To tie it into the football story, pointing at people and telling them they're wicked for disliking the EU, or a gesture associated with iconoclast barbarians, isn't going to persuade them. The Little Englander nonsense from Cameron was dumb as hell, yet there were plenty of pro-EU types here tittering about it.
Absolutely the "too late" remark was peak hubris.
The pro-EU MPs swallowed their own spin hook, line and sinker and thought they would win and overturn Brexit entirely rather than compromise on a BRINO Backstop that effectively kept us trapped in the Single Market and Customs Union with the EU having a veto on us ever leaving it.
Seeing Grieve kicked out of the party after his behaviour, then comprehensively thrashed at Beaconsfield and an hard rather than soft Brexit follow was really enjoyable.
I actually can’t remember those tumultuous moments.
The key prize for Remainers (rather than pro-EU which probably describes very few) was a second vote.
May refused to concede that.
There was a clear majority for a softish Brexit, but the various parties could not coalesce and let the loons (mostly on the Brexity side) win.
This is Mark Francois’s Brexit: petty, painful, and underpinned by inchoate fantasies about “de Jarmins”.
We'll never know how a second vote would have gone but, if Remain had narrowly won it, the country and our political system would have gone apeshit.
The fall out would have totally dominated our politics for years. With lots of anger and disorder as well.
There was no putting it back into Pandora's Box. The die was cast when we voted Leave, IMHO, and at that point we had to Leave - the best thing Remainers could have done was to influence its form and play the long game.
Cummings predicted civil strife if we'd had a second vote without enacting the first, and I believe he was right
Imagine the anger. The biggest mandate in British democratic history - 17.4 million voters - simply ignored? Overruled? Cancelled?
The stupidity of those that avowed a "people's vote" is quite something. They would also have trashed democracy for generations. Why bother voting for anything if the elite can just ignore it. So we become North Korea. Where elections are charades. With Potemkin referendums. Imagine doing the same in the Scottish indyref. Imagine if that had produced a YES vote (taking it out of the EU at the time), would ANYONE have suggested overruling it?
No. So why was it deemed permissible to overturn Brexit?
The campaign for a 2nd vote was also self-defeating, as you say. If the Remainers had accepted the first vote, then got behind ultra-soft Brexit, we would have got exactly that; they might even have kept Freedom of Movement inside EFTA
How many times do you need to be reminded that hard Brexit was committed to by May in 2016, and indicative votes on a soft Brexit (CU/SM) were voted down as a result of Tory whipping, with Labour overwhelmingly voting for it. It was the Tory obsession with a hard Brexit that prevented a soft Brexit, not Remainer opposition.
I've always admitted this. TMay (a Remainer) is as much to blame as the leftwing Remainers. Her insane red lines boxed her in from the start
However the push for a 2nd vote made Brexiteers worry that the whole thing would be overturned, which persuaded many Leavers to go for a Hard, irreversible Brexit. The two sides conspired to get a Brexit very few originally desired.
It will be a poignant passage in Brexit: the History
No, Brexiteers went for a hard Brexit because that was what they wanted. Was May a Remainer? Barely. She gave Cameron the minimal support necessary in the referendum campaign and immediately adopted these crazy red lines under the influence of Nick Timothy. Most Remainers were pragmatic and pushed for a soft Brexit but were met with inplacable hostility from Leavers, who insisted that they had won and would dictate terms. Personally I would have been OK with a 2nd referendum but a soft Brexit was preferable because it honoured the vote, however imperfect a process that was. By the time the referendum was lost there were no good outcomes.
Yes. The vote sparked a bizarre kulturkamp almost from the beginning, with Remainers and the EU accused of treachery with increasing fervour.
It made me realise I am not British, which I had previously assumed I was.
The thing is one thing fuels another.
Remainers saying "they're no longer British" and then arguing for the vote to be overturned fuelled charges of treason.
Leavers attacking every institution that put caveats or limits on the interpretation of the vote similarly infuriated Remainers and made them want to disassociate themselves from a decision they couldn't understand or identify with.
Well that’s me on this Board in 2021 saying as such.
I don’t remember a mass disavowal of citizenship in the wake of the vote, so your post just reads like a rewrite of history, if not victim blaming.
The Mail’s editorial (not wholly separable from govt comms policy) during this period was truly sickening. And even May was not immune, with disastrous criticisms of “citizens of nowhere” and grotesque suggestions that the EU was interfering in the 2017 election.
Her citizens of nowhere comment related to big business not paying their share if tax didn’t it?
I believe she meant something along those lines.
But within the toxic discourse of the post-referendum period, it carried other, terrifyingly inflammatory connotations.
But people who wanted a second referendum wilfully misunderstood her comments so as to pour petrol on any Brexit induced fireworks. And they were clever people, they just could not stomach being defeated.
Hence Boris, 80 seat majority, and the Brexit we have now.
Our crooked system says hello.
2014 - UKIP win Euro Elections under PR 2015 - CON promising a referendum win GE under FPTP 2016 - LEAVE win binary referendum 2017 - CON & LAB promising to respect LEAVE vote poll 84% under FPTP May 2019 - BREXIT PARTY win Euros under PR Dec 2019 - CON ‘Get Brexit Done’ win 80 seat majority under FPTP
Doesn’t it make you think the country wanted to leave the EU?
Full marks for the data manipulation and bias. Vladimir has a job for you.
As a counterpoint, here is a bit of bias of my own in the form of a question: What percentage of the total population who could vote voted Leave in the referendum?
It is a rhetorical question, so you don't need to answer as I already know it.
Seriously though, people need to move on on the question of Brexit. To those of us that lost the argument, we need to shut up and move on.
For those of you that "won" you need to shut up as well. You claim to be patriots, but patriots should seek to unite, not to divide.
What unity was there when Lisbon was passed without a referendum despite the government's manifesto promising to do otherwise? What unity was there when half of Britain's rebate was pissed away on an EU promise to reform CAP, that was then reneged on? Did Thatcher seek unity with the miners? Did Cameron seek unity with those opposed to gay marriage? Did Blair seek unity with those supporting Section 28?
Politics isn't about unity, its about making decisions and having debates. Those who lose the argument can either accept it and move on, which results in unity, or bitterly oppose it and keep fighting which makes unity impossible. It isn't on the winners to seek unity, though its popular to say that you're trying to.
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
There is a clear obvious problem with supply, while we also have a clear obvious problem with cases. And like anything with COVID, the longer you leave it, the worse the problem becomes very quickly.
Change the guidance on AZ and the supply problem disappears.
Actually it is implement the guidance as written.....
"the JCVI has advised a preference for adults aged 30 to 39 without underlying health conditions to receive an alternative to the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine – where available and only if this does not cause substantial delays in being vaccinated."
If supply is an issue the official policy is surely already to use AZ.
It clearly isn't been used, as 5m doses are sitting in a warehouse doing nothing, while they struggle to do 500k jabs a day.
Give the yuff the choice, you want a shot of AZN, you can come line up tomorrow at x. We will do as many as people turn up. If you want to wait, that's fine.
The queues will be around the block by 8am....well maybe 11am....the kids don't often get out of bed that early.
The supply issue is that we don't have enough Pfizer/Moderna to jab the under 30s quickly. The message now through various sources is that if you've had AZ more than 4 weeks ago then you can practically just turn up and get your 2nd jab. I had my first AZ 6 weeks ago, I am booked to have my 2nd in 2 weeks. However, my local main vaccination centre has sent out a message saying that on Friday and Saturday if you had AZ more than 4 weeks ago you can just turn up and get your 2nd jab. I think I might go for it.
The JCVI needs to re-work its guidance based on the current situation. Right now AZ in the arms of the under 30s is far more beneficial than it sat in a giant fridge. Like Francis says, offer the under 30s to just turn up and get jabbed with AZ. They can make an informed choice. Risks of a blood clot are less than going on a long haul flight.
Matt Hancock ought to be doing this today instead of sat in front of a select committee talking about what he should have done with the benefit of hindsight over a year ago. I'm still not convinced that we have a big issue but we ought to be jabbing as fast as we can and not be held back by some tiny risks.
Trials of variant Ox/AZ vaccine are going well, Sarah Gilbert reveals. Team aiming to produce jabs which work well against multiple different variants.
Not just me. But the Zero Covid Independent SAGE zealots get a lot more media attention than those scientists saying that we have herd immunity, so I'm not surprised at your mistake in thinking it was just me.
haha, that "reliable journalistic source", the DT. Your gullibility index just went up again Philip. I can't read the article because I won't subscribe to that erstwhile quality newspaper.
Facebook said it will let all employees work remotely even after the pandemic if their jobs can be done out of an office, but may reduce their pay if they move to a less-expensive area
That will go down like a bucket of cold sick.
Register a PO Box in California as your address. Move somewhere cheap. Use a VPN. Profit.
I think Facebook might ask for a bit more proof of your residency....and the IRS and state tax officials would also take a keen interest.
Doesn't mean that they all have Covid. Only takes one child to test positive for an entire year group "bubble" to be sent home.
With apologies to Cyclefree’s daughter. But by a mile of the remaining “NPI”, the one which needs to go above all others with the highest priority is the asymptomatic testing in schools. We have reached the point where covid tests should be used to guide treatment of serious cases, not as an excuse to quarantine school kids.
Unless the government are telling us that covid is now dangerous in kids. In which case license a vaccine for them and if necessary, pause all other vaccinations until kids are done. It’s inexcusable to still be disrupting kids education any longer.
Comments
https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/1402901660867993601
But within the toxic discourse of the post-referendum period, it carried other, terrifyingly inflammatory connotations.
The swerving Wye at Tintern, the emerald Thames valley in Oxfordshire, the Teign tumbling across Dartmoor, the salmon-leaping Tweed in the Borders, the exquisite coves of the Fal in Cornwall, the dappled trout-fisheries of the Test, the mighty Tyne as it rolls under the bridge at Newcastle....
No decent rivers! Pah
3 down straight after lunch.
Well bloody get on with it then...
Even more embarrassing getting out to Henry, who has the worst bowling average of any NZ bowler ever to play more than 10 tests.
"Four weeks ago, Bolton was described as "ground zero" of the Delta coronavirus variant in the UK. A month later cases are down by 30%. So how did they do it?
"As children prepared to go back to school after the Easter holidays, something worrying was happening in Bolton, Greater Manchester."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57425730
Hence Boris, 80 seat majority, and the Brexit we have now.
There could be no public health risks at all, and the economy could still be brought to a grinding halt.
Is Britain the best? There is no "Best". Does Britain have stunning natural beauty, great food, great culture, great science, great fundamental infrastructure for life? In any impartial analysis, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.
Of course, you may be skeptical as this is coming from an expat washed up on US shores. But I have lived in 7 countries, and spent more than passing time in another 50. Britain is definitely in the top bracket.
I have been looking at the islands on the west coast though. Mull, Skye, Harris, even. I would like to visit the area.
That area and Cornwall are perhaps the only parts of the UK that could get my juices flowing. And Cornwall will be chock-a-block this year.
Sub half a million. Not good enough for a thursday.
Says the man who said Ollie Robinson had to be dropped so he could go away and educate himself...about something he did 10 years ago.
(Not regulatory or financial alignment...)
And parts of the Hebrides are as epic and poetic as anywhere on earth. St Kilda is globally peerless. And Foula!
Also Suffolk. Magical in places, quite magical - ditto Herefordshire
You need to explore the UK a bit more
Reluctantly I do completely agree with the logic of your argument in those circumstances. Obviously we should never have got into that pickle in the first place and I don't agree with negotiating in bad faith, but I can see the lack of alternatives. Doesn't bode well for future agreements though.
(I assume he’s just realised that players covered by his managing agency don’t have pure white social media histories...)
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/jun/10/barbican-staff-say-it-is-institutionally-racist-despite-action-plan
Both magnificent.
2015 - CON promising a referendum win GE under FPTP
2016 - LEAVE win binary referendum
2017 - CON & LAB promising to respect LEAVE vote poll 84% under FPTP
May 2019 - BREXIT PARTY win Euros under PR
Dec 2019 - CON ‘Get Brexit Done’ win 80 seat majority under FPTP
Doesn’t it make you think the country wanted to leave the EU?
The virus is filling in the bubbles where there isn't enough protection, but then running into a wall of herd immunity. This couldn't happen March 2020 or January.
Beyond pisspoor.
Seven Ways to Change the World: How to Fix the Most Pressing Problems We Face by Gordon Brown
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jun/10/seven-ways-to-change-the-world-by-gordon-brown-review-a-restless-search-for-answers
And so is Ed...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/10/thinking-big-labour-politics-radical-vision
"the JCVI has advised a preference for adults aged 30 to 39 without underlying health conditions to receive an alternative to the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine – where available and only if this does not cause substantial delays in being vaccinated."
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-advises-on-covid-19-vaccine-for-people-aged-under-40
If supply is an issue the official policy is surely already to use AZ.
This will all open to us again, soon enough, and we will remember how lucky we are to live in Europe, where all this is on our doorstep - and we can hop there in an hour or two, and see any kind of scenery except desert (tho Spain comes close).
People in America are five thousand miles at least from the marvels of Europe, Australia, even more
Yet it is our backyard! - and in the meantime we have our own lovely, storied country, which is not without grave flaws but is always fascinating
Other places might rise rapidly up to 2-300 per 100 thousand (7 day average) and then hit the ceiling.
Give the yuff the choice, you want a shot of AZN, you can come line up tomorrow at x. We will do as many as people turn up. If you want to wait, that's fine.
The queues will be around the block by 8am....well maybe 11am....the kids don't often get out of bed that early.
Most of that's available where I live, 2 or 3hr drive max.
I'll give you sea is freezing.
I've always joked that I'm happy living somewhere a bit crap because getting away is so much more delicious. Unfortunately, that way of thinking is back-firing on me rather at the moment.
Probably someone, somewhere, is saying “well anything other than a total ban for U40s is just too “confusing”...
Remember when medical decisions were supposed to be taken on the basis of judgement and balance of risks?
There's naff all we can do about supply that will have an effect quickly. We've got about 200k mRNA doses a day, which look like they're mostly being used for first doses on thirtysomethings.
If you want to up the pace, you need to do two things-
1 Tweak the guidance back to "actually, the benefits of AZ do outweigh the risks."
2 Tweak the systems so that you can get the stockpiles out and into people.
And even those will take time- to which you have to add the time it takes for AZ to work optimally.
But both of those depend on a much harder thing-
0 Acknowledge that there's a problem.
The story the government's master story teller has told is of the brilliance of Independent Britain's Brilliant Vaccine Strategy. It's a good story, with a lot of truth in it. It's been a good strategy, but right now, not quite enough at the critical point.
But everything to do with Covid operates on a delay. Which is why you have to anticipate, which appears not to have happened.
Some people think 'herd immunity' is a binary all or nothing that means that its impossible for cases to rise if we have it. Its not what its ever realistically meant, if it was then all viruses with herd immunity would end up with rapid total eradication.
As a whole there is herd immunity across the adult population, but there are pockets were there isn't. So the virus can get into those pockets and burn through those pockets, but it can't exponentially rise for long because it burns out in that pocket and fails to find new hosts.
Particularly the Gov't changing tack.
The CDC have spoken about a Herd Immunity Threshold of 75-80% and we're currently at 80% testing with antibodies.
That will go down like a bucket of cold sick.
Equally if someone like Douglas Murray was to have said it in the Uk, I think it would be worth listening to him, even if you are a wokist and disagree with him on other things.
The real question now Leon, is not whether this will be out in the open by the next US election. I think that’s now almost certain. But in what regard it will be.
It might be “gee, UFO’s are real after all. Wonder where they come from? Perhaps we’ll never know. Oh well let’s put the kettle on”.
Then at the other end of the spectrum is the Israeli general last year with his “Galactic Federation” chat.
If (capital I capital F) as Harry Reid seems to believe, the US deep state has physical material in its possession, I expect the basic revelation on the UFO reality to crack that open fairly quickly, with whistle blowers emerging. So if we don’t hear much else by 2024 then I think the US has shitall and it’s up to the Other Side whether we ever know more than we already do.
https://inews.co.uk/news/science/covid-variant-vaccine-in-trials-to-act-as-booster-against-all-new-strains-1044710
It is funny you should say that Britain has no wow factor. I used to think that. But 1 year living in the general brownness of Yemen, and then to land at Heathrow in early May with everything in full spring green. Now that is a wow factor if you are not used to it.
The story is that everything's going swimmingly, we'll beat Jerry to the sunlounger et cetera. The possibility that vaccination isn't quite going well enough, or that a nasty variant has made its way into the UK, aren't really part of that story. Besides, both of those would lead to, let's say, tricky questions for the PM.
Not just me. But the Zero Covid Independent SAGE zealots get a lot more media attention than those scientists saying that we have herd immunity, so I'm not surprised at your mistake in thinking it was just me.
As a counterpoint, here is a bit of bias of my own in the form of a question: What percentage of the total population who could vote voted Leave in the referendum?
It is a rhetorical question, so you don't need to answer as I already know it.
Seriously though, people need to move on on the question of Brexit. To those of us that lost the argument, we need to shut up and move on.
For those of you that "won" you need to shut up as well. You claim to be patriots, but patriots should seek to unite, not to divide.
Move somewhere cheap.
Use a VPN.
Profit.
From a mass email the editor of National Geographic sent out
https://twitter.com/roddreher/status/1401806727918542851?s=20
Now it isn't good enough to put your pronouns in your twitter bio, you have to sign off an email with your race card...
The same is true of Johnson. He has to exist in an increasingly elaborate fabricated reality.
To all those who expected WFH to be roses, roses all the way - I Told You So, You F&*king Fools.
"With WFH we can employ people who live in the bits of the UK where you can buy houses BOGOF for £500. So we expect our staff to live there and get paid accordingly"
Anyway, I have to be off.
https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/
https://www.itv.com/news/2021-06-10/monkeypox-outbreak-in-north-wales-as-two-treated-for-rare-viral-infection
What unity was there when half of Britain's rebate was pissed away on an EU promise to reform CAP, that was then reneged on?
Did Thatcher seek unity with the miners?
Did Cameron seek unity with those opposed to gay marriage?
Did Blair seek unity with those supporting Section 28?
Politics isn't about unity, its about making decisions and having debates. Those who lose the argument can either accept it and move on, which results in unity, or bitterly oppose it and keep fighting which makes unity impossible. It isn't on the winners to seek unity, though its popular to say that you're trying to.
"I think it's a magical thing that's happened to me."
https://twitter.com/bbcarchive/status/1402980115609526272?s=21
The JCVI needs to re-work its guidance based on the current situation. Right now AZ in the arms of the under 30s is far more beneficial than it sat in a giant fridge. Like Francis says, offer the under 30s to just turn up and get jabbed with AZ. They can make an informed choice. Risks of a blood clot are less than going on a long haul flight.
Matt Hancock ought to be doing this today instead of sat in front of a select committee talking about what he should have done with the benefit of hindsight over a year ago. I'm still not convinced that we have a big issue but we ought to be jabbing as fast as we can and not be held back by some tiny risks.
Here is an article in terms that you can understand from a news source that is a little less up the bum hole of Boris Johnson: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-why-the-uk-is-still-some-way-short-of-herd-immunity-despite-impressive-vaccine-rollout-12328512
Find something you do know something about to pronounce on Philip. It definitely is not science. Do you have any hobbies beyond key board warrioring?
Unless the government are telling us that covid is now dangerous in kids. In which case license a vaccine for them and if necessary, pause all other vaccinations until kids are done. It’s inexcusable to still be disrupting kids education any longer.