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Comparing the latest polling – pollster by pollster – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,167
edited May 2021 in General
imageComparing the latest polling – pollster by pollster – politicalbetting.com

With Opnium showing a markedly differently CON lead than the other firms it is useful just look at all of the numbers firm by firm.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Firrrrst
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    You propose further investigations into the origins, yet say the people capable of such investigations can't be believed if they reject your theory.....what is the point of further investigations? Just believe harder and you can get past 70/30.
    I know you jest, but it is actually a problem. The people who have the greatest expertise in this field also have a huge conflict of interest: they are professionally and emotionally biased towards dismissing the lab leak hypothesis

    I'm not sure what you do about it
    In which case you can never prove the lab leak theory or any other origin theory. The only people with the technical expertise to do so are, to your mind, tainted. You’re an entertaining read, but an erotic flint knapper researching stuff on the internet should be beat by a virologist researching stuff on the ground. But if the virologists are compromised then we can never conclusively prove anything as the only people with the expertise cannot be trusted. It’s like the liars paradox.
    The paradox is quite easily resolved. At the moment the virologists have a head start because they know the facts, so they can say "gain of function" and the rest of us have to resort to Wikipedia to see what they are on about. That head start is lost once it pays an outsider to spend time familiarising themselves with the field; hence you get Feynman sorting out space shuttle disasters despite the fact that anyone who knows anything about space shuttles is already on the NASA payroll.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856
    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,917
    As a minor party, the LibDems being on 10 per cent tells us nothing. If it's uniform, they win no seats. If it's lumpy, where are the lumps? In particular, is there one at the end of the Metropolitan line?

    Chesham & Amersham
    Conservative 1/25
    LibDem 10/1 (15 on Betfair in a thin market).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    You propose further investigations into the origins, yet say the people capable of such investigations can't be believed if they reject your theory.....what is the point of further investigations? Just believe harder and you can get past 70/30.
    I know you jest, but it is actually a problem. The people who have the greatest expertise in this field also have a huge conflict of interest: they are professionally and emotionally biased towards dismissing the lab leak hypothesis

    I'm not sure what you do about it
    In which case you can never prove the lab leak theory or any other origin theory. The only people with the technical expertise to do so are, to your mind, tainted. You’re an entertaining read, but an erotic flint knapper researching stuff on the internet should be beat by a virologist researching stuff on the ground. But if the virologists are compromised then we can never conclusively prove anything as the only people with the expertise cannot be trusted. It’s like the liars paradox.
    The paradox is quite easily resolved. At the moment the virologists have a head start because they know the facts, so they can say "gain of function" and the rest of us have to resort to Wikipedia to see what they are on about. That head start is lost once it pays an outsider to spend time familiarising themselves with the field; hence you get Feynman sorting out space shuttle disasters despite the fact that anyone who knows anything about space shuttles is already on the NASA payroll.
    Yes, that's the answer. Use the virologists but make sure they are employed, guided and scrutinised by smart outsiders, and a non-virologist reaches the conclusions
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,100
    I agree that YouGov and Opinium seem to be outliers and I have maintained for some time the average conservative lead is between 8 - 10%

    As we close in on the 14th June and Boris decides to announce the 21st June opening, maybe with a few minor caveats, the following weeks and months will be intriguing

    Lots of scientists and the media will be under the spotlight if there is only a relative minor increase in hospitalisations and sadly deaths.

    I am not an expert, but it does seem it is largely the unvaccinated and young who are contracting covid now and with less severity I pose the question, is this going to see us enter into herd immunity, especially with the amazing vaccine success
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761
    That noise you can hear is one of the high priestesses of zero-covid attempting a handbrake turn:


    "For the UK and elsewhere the pandemic’s end is in sight"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/31/rich-countries-vaccines-covid-19-manageable-health-issue-pandemic
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    You propose further investigations into the origins, yet say the people capable of such investigations can't be believed if they reject your theory.....what is the point of further investigations? Just believe harder and you can get past 70/30.
    I know you jest, but it is actually a problem. The people who have the greatest expertise in this field also have a huge conflict of interest: they are professionally and emotionally biased towards dismissing the lab leak hypothesis

    I'm not sure what you do about it
    In which case you can never prove the lab leak theory or any other origin theory. The only people with the technical expertise to do so are, to your mind, tainted. You’re an entertaining read, but an erotic flint knapper researching stuff on the internet should be beat by a virologist researching stuff on the ground. But if the virologists are compromised then we can never conclusively prove anything as the only people with the expertise cannot be trusted. It’s like the liars paradox.
    The paradox is quite easily resolved. At the moment the virologists have a head start because they know the facts, so they can say "gain of function" and the rest of us have to resort to Wikipedia to see what they are on about. That head start is lost once it pays an outsider to spend time familiarising themselves with the field; hence you get Feynman sorting out space shuttle disasters despite the fact that anyone who knows anything about space shuttles is already on the NASA payroll.
    Yes, that's the answer. Use the virologists but make sure they are employed, guided and scrutinised by smart outsiders, and a non-virologist reaches the conclusions
    Maybe we should wait until that happens before pronouncing with 100% certainty then? I’ve seen it posited on here by pro lab leakers that the Mail article was so bad it was a “false flag” operation. When you’re that far down the rabbit hole it’s generally best to step back for a bit.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    The average Tory lead is around 10-11%.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    The question that was put to me re "engineered virus" was this:

    Ok, so we've made some changes to the virus. How do we know that it has made the virus more virulent?

    CV19 spread more widely, and did more damage, than SARS not because it was more transmissible, but because there are a lot of asymptomatic and presymptomatic carriers.

    It is not simply am "amped up" version of a virus is nature (in the way that South African or Kent variants are more potent at evading the body's immune systems and spreading faster).

    What makes it so effective is something that requires significant time in humans to observe. How works the virologists know this and design for this, when our understanding of how viruses work is so limited?

    Remember, the virus is one step further away from mRNA. The virus outputs mRNA to tell our cells what to produce. We've only got to a reasonable level of understanding of mRNA this year. The designed virus hypothesis requires the Chinese researchers to be be a decade or more ahead of those in the West.

    Which is possible. But it's quite hard to hide the fact that you know so very much more than other people.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    You propose further investigations into the origins, yet say the people capable of such investigations can't be believed if they reject your theory.....what is the point of further investigations? Just believe harder and you can get past 70/30.
    I know you jest, but it is actually a problem. The people who have the greatest expertise in this field also have a huge conflict of interest: they are professionally and emotionally biased towards dismissing the lab leak hypothesis

    I'm not sure what you do about it
    In which case you can never prove the lab leak theory or any other origin theory. The only people with the technical expertise to do so are, to your mind, tainted. You’re an entertaining read, but an erotic flint knapper researching stuff on the internet should be beat by a virologist researching stuff on the ground. But if the virologists are compromised then we can never conclusively prove anything as the only people with the expertise cannot be trusted. It’s like the liars paradox.
    The paradox is quite easily resolved. At the moment the virologists have a head start because they know the facts, so they can say "gain of function" and the rest of us have to resort to Wikipedia to see what they are on about. That head start is lost once it pays an outsider to spend time familiarising themselves with the field; hence you get Feynman sorting out space shuttle disasters despite the fact that anyone who knows anything about space shuttles is already on the NASA payroll.
    Yes, that's the answer. Use the virologists but make sure they are employed, guided and scrutinised by smart outsiders, and a non-virologist reaches the conclusions
    We need big picture guys with brains like planets and no great political bias.

    I guess you and Ishmael are too busy - so how about Bill Gates or George Soros?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    Two different effects here. One is just the usual statistical wobbles, but there also seems to be systematic differences.

    So the extremes are less likely to be outliers in the usual sense when a repeated sample has produced a similar result.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201
    As half the English football fans in Porto were singing "Blue is the colour"....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    You propose further investigations into the origins, yet say the people capable of such investigations can't be believed if they reject your theory.....what is the point of further investigations? Just believe harder and you can get past 70/30.
    I know you jest, but it is actually a problem. The people who have the greatest expertise in this field also have a huge conflict of interest: they are professionally and emotionally biased towards dismissing the lab leak hypothesis

    I'm not sure what you do about it
    In which case you can never prove the lab leak theory or any other origin theory. The only people with the technical expertise to do so are, to your mind, tainted. You’re an entertaining read, but an erotic flint knapper researching stuff on the internet should be beat by a virologist researching stuff on the ground. But if the virologists are compromised then we can never conclusively prove anything as the only people with the expertise cannot be trusted. It’s like the liars paradox.
    The paradox is quite easily resolved. At the moment the virologists have a head start because they know the facts, so they can say "gain of function" and the rest of us have to resort to Wikipedia to see what they are on about. That head start is lost once it pays an outsider to spend time familiarising themselves with the field; hence you get Feynman sorting out space shuttle disasters despite the fact that anyone who knows anything about space shuttles is already on the NASA payroll.
    Yes, that's the answer. Use the virologists but make sure they are employed, guided and scrutinised by smart outsiders, and a non-virologist reaches the conclusions
    Maybe we should wait until that happens before pronouncing with 100% certainty then? I’ve seen it posited on here by pro lab leakers that the Mail article was so bad it was a “false flag” operation. When you’re that far down the rabbit hole it’s generally best to step back for a bit.
    Bugger off, actually, that was plainly merely a figure of speech to convey how woefully bad that article is. Read it. It is.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Opinium lead 23rd April: 11
    Opinium lead 30th April: 5
    Opinium lead 14th May: 13
    Opinium lead 28th May: 6
    Opinium lead Xth June: ???

    Opinium looks particularly susceptible to the short-term impact of stories that receive saturation coverage in the media - Wallpapergate and Cummingsgate II most recently (like World Wars, we've started numbering them!). Then the saturation coverage ends and the long-term trend reasserts itself. YouGov, by contrast, astutely filters out the most highly-engaged voters and so tends to avoid the whiplash effect produced by the volatile moods of the obsessives following every syllable of the proceedings:
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    You propose further investigations into the origins, yet say the people capable of such investigations can't be believed if they reject your theory.....what is the point of further investigations? Just believe harder and you can get past 70/30.
    I know you jest, but it is actually a problem. The people who have the greatest expertise in this field also have a huge conflict of interest: they are professionally and emotionally biased towards dismissing the lab leak hypothesis

    I'm not sure what you do about it
    In which case you can never prove the lab leak theory or any other origin theory. The only people with the technical expertise to do so are, to your mind, tainted. You’re an entertaining read, but an erotic flint knapper researching stuff on the internet should be beat by a virologist researching stuff on the ground. But if the virologists are compromised then we can never conclusively prove anything as the only people with the expertise cannot be trusted. It’s like the liars paradox.
    The paradox is quite easily resolved. At the moment the virologists have a head start because they know the facts, so they can say "gain of function" and the rest of us have to resort to Wikipedia to see what they are on about. That head start is lost once it pays an outsider to spend time familiarising themselves with the field; hence you get Feynman sorting out space shuttle disasters despite the fact that anyone who knows anything about space shuttles is already on the NASA payroll.
    Yes, that's the answer. Use the virologists but make sure they are employed, guided and scrutinised by smart outsiders, and a non-virologist reaches the conclusions
    Maybe we should wait until that happens before pronouncing with 100% certainty then? I’ve seen it posited on here by pro lab leakers that the Mail article was so bad it was a “false flag” operation. When you’re that far down the rabbit hole it’s generally best to step back for a bit.
    Bugger off, actually, that was plainly merely a figure of speech to convey how woefully bad that article is. Read it. It is.
    It’s appalling. It suggested that something went against the laws of physics so had to be man made. Suggesting the Chinese can break the laws of physics. At which point whoever made that claim can be safely disregarded,
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    The question that was put to me re "engineered virus" was this:

    Ok, so we've made some changes to the virus. How do we know that it has made the virus more virulent?

    CV19 spread more widely, and did more damage, than SARS not because it was more transmissible, but because there are a lot of asymptomatic and presymptomatic carriers.

    It is not simply am "amped up" version of a virus is nature (in the way that South African or Kent variants are more potent at evading the body's immune systems and spreading faster).

    What makes it so effective is something that requires significant time in humans to observe. How works the virologists know this and design for this, when our understanding of how viruses work is so limited?

    Remember, the virus is one step further away from mRNA. The virus outputs mRNA to tell our cells what to produce. We've only got to a reasonable level of understanding of mRNA this year. The designed virus hypothesis requires the Chinese researchers to be be a decade or more ahead of those in the West.

    Which is possible. But it's quite hard to hide the fact that you know so very much more than other people.
    You inject it into humanised mice?

    Your argument proves too much; it proves that virology is just too difficult to do, and therefore there are no virologists. What point would there be in doing gain of function research if there is no way of knowing whether function has been gained!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    edited May 2021
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    No, not touching distance. It is 5 more years of asking inane questions which are never answered, of drafting policy documents that are never implemented, of the sheer indescribable boredom of opposition whilst several of your brightest and best go off to become Mayors because at least then you get to do something, its the change for SKS and many of the older members from being has beens to never was's, Its shit.

    No one even marginally sane goes into politics at all. No one who is not bat shit insane goes into politics to be the opposition.
    A reduced Tory majority of 30 would be near 1992 levels and of course that led to the Labour landslide of 1997 at the next general election.

    An increased Tory majority of 100 though would be back to 1983 or 1987 levels and leave Labour even further away from power than they are now.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,873
    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    You propose further investigations into the origins, yet say the people capable of such investigations can't be believed if they reject your theory.....what is the point of further investigations? Just believe harder and you can get past 70/30.
    I know you jest, but it is actually a problem. The people who have the greatest expertise in this field also have a huge conflict of interest: they are professionally and emotionally biased towards dismissing the lab leak hypothesis

    I'm not sure what you do about it
    In which case you can never prove the lab leak theory or any other origin theory. The only people with the technical expertise to do so are, to your mind, tainted. You’re an entertaining read, but an erotic flint knapper researching stuff on the internet should be beat by a virologist researching stuff on the ground. But if the virologists are compromised then we can never conclusively prove anything as the only people with the expertise cannot be trusted. It’s like the liars paradox.
    The paradox is quite easily resolved. At the moment the virologists have a head start because they know the facts, so they can say "gain of function" and the rest of us have to resort to Wikipedia to see what they are on about. That head start is lost once it pays an outsider to spend time familiarising themselves with the field; hence you get Feynman sorting out space shuttle disasters despite the fact that anyone who knows anything about space shuttles is already on the NASA payroll.
    Yes, that's the answer. Use the virologists but make sure they are employed, guided and scrutinised by smart outsiders, and a non-virologist reaches the conclusions
    Maybe we should wait until that happens before pronouncing with 100% certainty then? I’ve seen it posited on here by pro lab leakers that the Mail article was so bad it was a “false flag” operation. When you’re that far down the rabbit hole it’s generally best to step back for a bit.
    Bugger off, actually, that was plainly merely a figure of speech to convey how woefully bad that article is. Read it. It is.
    Has the cited study actually been published yet? Even as an advance preprint on the journal website?

    I can't see it here (which must be what the DM mean by their slightly oddly worded citation):

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/qrb-discovery/accepted-manuscripts

    And the only Dalgleish paper that comes up on a sewarch in that journal is one of a year or so back (I checked both spellings of the name to be sure).

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533
    edited May 2021
    Nothing too much to see here. Nearly everything is explicable by margin of error. Secondly, apart from polls within about 7 days of a relevant general election, national polls cannot be independently evaluated except by the next set of polls, which are subject to the same uncertainty in a regress which continues until a week or so before the GE. So the subject matter, while entertaining and exciting (to PBers though not I imagine to normal people) is essentially a piece of metaphysics which, critically, is not subject to falsification.

    Question for statisticians:

    As I understand it the ordinary poll is subject to a margin of error about 3 percentage points either way. So a Lab figure of 35 is consistent with 32-38.

    Is this true of the small figures for smaller parties. If the real LD score is say 8% should I expect, in the absence of real change, the figures to range between 5 and 11? If true it would explain quite a bit.

    Finally, while a Tory lead looks baked in nothing about current times tells us about the score once stuff happens, like ending furlough, inflation happening, dealing with deficit etc. Except that a Labour majority looks impossible most other things could happen.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    No, not touching distance. It is 5 more years of asking inane questions which are never answered, of drafting policy documents that are never implemented, of the sheer indescribable boredom of opposition whilst several of your brightest and best go off to become Mayors because at least then you get to do something, its the change for SKS and many of the older members from being has beens to never was's, Its shit.

    No one even marginally sane goes into politics at all. No one who is not bat shit insane goes into politics to be the opposition.

    Was Brabin a smart operator ? Is she going to be a good mayor ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    The question that was put to me re "engineered virus" was this:

    Ok, so we've made some changes to the virus. How do we know that it has made the virus more virulent?

    CV19 spread more widely, and did more damage, than SARS not because it was more transmissible, but because there are a lot of asymptomatic and presymptomatic carriers.

    It is not simply am "amped up" version of a virus is nature (in the way that South African or Kent variants are more potent at evading the body's immune systems and spreading faster).

    What makes it so effective is something that requires significant time in humans to observe. How works the virologists know this and design for this, when our understanding of how viruses work is so limited?

    Remember, the virus is one step further away from mRNA. The virus outputs mRNA to tell our cells what to produce. We've only got to a reasonable level of understanding of mRNA this year. The designed virus hypothesis requires the Chinese researchers to be be a decade or more ahead of those in the West.

    Which is possible. But it's quite hard to hide the fact that you know so very much more than other people.
    You inject it into humanised mice?

    Your argument proves too much; it proves that virology is just too difficult to do, and therefore there are no virologists. What point would there be in doing gain of function research if there is no way of knowing whether function has been gained!
    If engineers of 1908 couldn't produce a 747, then what did engineers do? Why did engineers exist?

    It's possible that Chinese virologists know a lot, lot more than Western virologists. (Although that does raise the question of why they have produced such poor vaccines )

    There are lots of possibilities, from traditional animal-human transfer, to accidental release of captured virus, to escape of a recombinant virus, to engineered (weaponised) virus.

    And all any of us can do is assign probabilities to them, because none of us know.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Opinium lead 23rd April: 11
    Opinium lead 30th April: 5
    Opinium lead 14th May: 13
    Opinium lead 28th May: 6
    Opinium lead Xth June: ???

    Opinium looks particularly susceptible to the short-term impact of stories that receive saturation coverage in the media - Wallpapergate and Cummingsgate II most recently (like World Wars, we've started numbering them!). Then the saturation coverage ends and the long-term trend reasserts itself. YouGov, by contrast, astutely filters out the most highly-engaged voters and so tends to avoid the whiplash effect produced by the volatile moods of the obsessives following every syllable of the proceedings:

    The fact YouGov do that is great. I think it makes them the best pollsters.

    But, given the worst poll for the Tories has them with a 30 seat majority, how is Con Maj EVS?
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    No, not touching distance. It is 5 more years of asking inane questions which are never answered, of drafting policy documents that are never implemented, of the sheer indescribable boredom of opposition whilst several of your brightest and best go off to become Mayors because at least then you get to do something, its the change for SKS and many of the older members from being has beens to never was's, Its shit.

    No one even marginally sane goes into politics at all. No one who is not bat shit insane goes into politics to be the opposition.
    The time to go in is when you think your party is at its low point and the only way is up.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    isam said:

    Opinium lead 23rd April: 11
    Opinium lead 30th April: 5
    Opinium lead 14th May: 13
    Opinium lead 28th May: 6
    Opinium lead Xth June: ???

    Opinium looks particularly susceptible to the short-term impact of stories that receive saturation coverage in the media - Wallpapergate and Cummingsgate II most recently (like World Wars, we've started numbering them!). Then the saturation coverage ends and the long-term trend reasserts itself. YouGov, by contrast, astutely filters out the most highly-engaged voters and so tends to avoid the whiplash effect produced by the volatile moods of the obsessives following every syllable of the proceedings:

    The fact YouGov do that is great. I think it makes them the best pollsters.

    But, given the worst poll for the Tories has them with a 30 seat majority, how is Con Maj EVS?
    Because opinion polls two or three years out are uncorrelated with the result of the next election.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    isam said:

    Opinium lead 23rd April: 11
    Opinium lead 30th April: 5
    Opinium lead 14th May: 13
    Opinium lead 28th May: 6
    Opinium lead Xth June: ???

    Opinium looks particularly susceptible to the short-term impact of stories that receive saturation coverage in the media - Wallpapergate and Cummingsgate II most recently (like World Wars, we've started numbering them!). Then the saturation coverage ends and the long-term trend reasserts itself. YouGov, by contrast, astutely filters out the most highly-engaged voters and so tends to avoid the whiplash effect produced by the volatile moods of the obsessives following every syllable of the proceedings:

    The fact YouGov do that is great. I think it makes them the best pollsters.

    But, given the worst poll for the Tories has them with a 30 seat majority, how is Con Maj EVS?
    Should be 4/6 for me.

    Starmer does like The Jam btw. He especially likes the album of theirs which you said is your favourite. The one you mentioned the other day. He loves that album too.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    edited May 2021
    isam said:

    Opinium lead 23rd April: 11
    Opinium lead 30th April: 5
    Opinium lead 14th May: 13
    Opinium lead 28th May: 6
    Opinium lead Xth June: ???

    Opinium looks particularly susceptible to the short-term impact of stories that receive saturation coverage in the media - Wallpapergate and Cummingsgate II most recently (like World Wars, we've started numbering them!). Then the saturation coverage ends and the long-term trend reasserts itself. YouGov, by contrast, astutely filters out the most highly-engaged voters and so tends to avoid the whiplash effect produced by the volatile moods of the obsessives following every syllable of the proceedings:

    The fact YouGov do that is great. I think it makes them the best pollsters.

    But, given the worst poll for the Tories has them with a 30 seat majority, how is Con Maj EVS?
    All the usual reasons.

    - The election will be 2024ish rather than tomorrow (if a very early election was forced it's be a negative). This means that there's lot of time for events to change the picture, and the government has a lot of future issues ahead with debt/deficits/nhs wages/etc

    - Election campaigns can change a lot.

    - There's some slight disaster insurance bias. Larger bettors are probably more likely to be richer, and would likely prefer a Tory government for economic reasons - thus are less likely to be doubling up by also backing them.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,889
    Evening all :)

    Well, as we know, there's polling and there's polling so I thought I'd liven your Monday evening with another of my "European tours" of the polls.

    Let's kick off in Germany with another INSA poll (changes since last poll):
    CDU/CSU-EPP: 25.5% (-0.5)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 21.5% (-0.5)
    SPD-S&D: 15.5% (-0.5)
    FDP-RE: 13.5% (+1)
    AfD-ID: 11% (-0.5)
    LINKE-LEFT: 6.5%

    Another "high" number for the FDP and within just two points of the SPD - the thought the FDP might come third in front of the SPD now looks at least plausible even if still incredible.

    One part of Europe where politics looks quite stable currently is Greece - remember, the Greece that was going to crash out of the Euro, the Greece whose chaos overshadowed the formation of the Coalition in 2010?

    Changes since last election (2019)

    ND-EPP: 47% (+7)
    SYRIZA-LEFT: 25% (-6)
    KINAL-S&D: 8% (unc)
    KKE-NI: 7% (+2)
    EL-ECR: 5% (+1)
    MeRA25~LEFT: 4% (unc)

    On these numbers, Mitsotakis and the New Democracy Government would be re-elected with an increased majority but the election isn't until July 2023.

    Closer to home and the latest Red C poll from Ireland (changes from 2020 election)

    SF-LEFT: 29% (+4)
    FG-EPP: 29% (+8)
    FF-RE: 14% (-8)
    Greens-G/EFA: 5% (-2)
    SOC DEM→S&D: 5% (+2)
    LAB-S&D: 3% (-1)
    S-PBP~LEFT: 2% (unc)
    AONTU-*: 2% (unc)

    I wonder if we are seeing a re-alignment to a new duopoly with the FF/FG split which has dominated Irish politics for decades being replaced by a new SF/FG split with FF fading away.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    edited May 2021
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Well, as we know, there's polling and there's polling so I thought I'd liven your Monday evening with another of my "European tours" of the polls.

    Let's kick off in Germany with another INSA poll (changes since last poll):
    CDU/CSU-EPP: 25.5% (-0.5)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 21.5% (-0.5)
    SPD-S&D: 15.5% (-0.5)
    FDP-RE: 13.5% (+1)
    AfD-ID: 11% (-0.5)
    LINKE-LEFT: 6.5%

    Another "high" number for the FDP and within just two points of the SPD - the thought the FDP might come third in front of the SPD now looks at least plausible even if still incredible.

    One part of Europe where politics looks quite stable currently is Greece - remember, the Greece that was going to crash out of the Euro, the Greece whose chaos overshadowed the formation of the Coalition in 2010?

    Changes since last election (2019)

    ND-EPP: 47% (+7)
    SYRIZA-LEFT: 25% (-6)
    KINAL-S&D: 8% (unc)
    KKE-NI: 7% (+2)
    EL-ECR: 5% (+1)
    MeRA25~LEFT: 4% (unc)

    On these numbers, Mitsotakis and the New Democracy Government would be re-elected with an increased majority but the election isn't until July 2023.

    Closer to home and the latest Red C poll from Ireland (changes from 2020 election)

    SF-LEFT: 29% (+4)
    FG-EPP: 29% (+8)
    FF-RE: 14% (-8)
    Greens-G/EFA: 5% (-2)
    SOC DEM→S&D: 5% (+2)
    LAB-S&D: 3% (-1)
    S-PBP~LEFT: 2% (unc)
    AONTU-*: 2% (unc)

    I wonder if we are seeing a re-alignment to a new duopoly with the FF/FG split which has dominated Irish politics for decades being replaced by a new SF/FG split with FF fading away.

    In Germany looks like will be a Union and Green coalition unless the FDP decide to do a deal with the SPD and Greens.

    In Greece Syriza has now faded like Corbyn Labour.

    In Ireland it certainly looks like SF on the left and pushing hardest for a United Ireland and FG on the centre right are becoming the main parties but FF, traditionally a bit more socially conservative and closest to the Catholic Church, is now fading.

    FG will still need FF support to keep SF out of power however
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FPT @rcs1000
    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    There are two or three specific variants in the COVID-19 virus that massively increases its efficacy as a human vital agent (eg the precise design and location of the furin cleavage site)

    To have one of these mutations would be highly unusual. To have multiple mutations, that occurred simultaneously (or at least where we have been completely unable to identify the precursors) is highly highly improbable.

    The simple answer is probably the correct one. It is also extremely dull and unexciting:

    1. The lab collected the base virus. We know they collected similar viruses
    2. The lab tweaked the virus. We know they were undertaking gain of function modifications (from grant applications) including insertion of the furin cleavage site (from published papers)
    3. The virus escaped from the lab

    It’s a combination of stupidity, greed, negligence, and sheer bad luck. Like pretty much every other disaster that has occurred in the modern world.

    To the extent that China is to be blamed it is in respect of slipshod regulation, a cover up and their willingness to encourage foreign travel at a time they knew what was coming

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    That noise you can hear is one of the high priestesses of zero-covid attempting a handbrake turn:


    "For the UK and elsewhere the pandemic’s end is in sight"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/31/rich-countries-vaccines-covid-19-manageable-health-issue-pandemic

    Zero COVID was “the most effective” approach… “but now we have vaccines”

    😂😂😂😂
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    The question that was put to me re "engineered virus" was this:

    Ok, so we've made some changes to the virus. How do we know that it has made the virus more virulent?

    CV19 spread more widely, and did more damage, than SARS not because it was more transmissible, but because there are a lot of asymptomatic and presymptomatic carriers.

    It is not simply am "amped up" version of a virus is nature (in the way that South African or Kent variants are more potent at evading the body's immune systems and spreading faster).

    What makes it so effective is something that requires significant time in humans to observe. How works the virologists know this and design for this, when our understanding of how viruses work is so limited?

    Remember, the virus is one step further away from mRNA. The virus outputs mRNA to tell our cells what to produce. We've only got to a reasonable level of understanding of mRNA this year. The designed virus hypothesis requires the Chinese researchers to be be a decade or more ahead of those in the West.

    Which is possible. But it's quite hard to hide the fact that you know so very much more than other people.
    You’re assuming that the scientists did all the work.

    They might not have known about the asymptomatic cases.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    Charles said:

    FPT @rcs1000

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    There are two or three specific variants in the COVID-19 virus that massively increases its efficacy as a human vital agent (eg the precise design and location of the furin cleavage site)

    To have one of these mutations would be highly unusual. To have multiple mutations, that occurred simultaneously (or at least where we have been completely unable to identify the precursors) is highly highly improbable.

    The simple answer is probably the correct one. It is also extremely dull and unexciting:

    1. The lab collected the base virus. We know they collected similar viruses
    2. The lab tweaked the virus. We know they were undertaking gain of function modifications (from grant applications) including insertion of the furin cleavage site (from published papers)
    3. The virus escaped from the lab

    It’s a combination of stupidity, greed, negligence, and sheer bad luck. Like pretty much every other disaster that has occurred in the modern world.

    To the extent that China is to be blamed it is in respect of slipshod regulation, a cover up and their willingness to encourage foreign travel at a time they knew what was coming

    Interesting

    They also did much of their research, it turns out, in a BSL2 lab, which has a few masks and labcoats, like a dentist, not the BSL4 maximum security lab with its hazmat suits

    The BSL2 lab is much nearer the wet market. If we're looking for an actual source, we should look at the lower level lab
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,917

    Opinium lead 23rd April: 11
    Opinium lead 30th April: 5
    Opinium lead 14th May: 13
    Opinium lead 28th May: 6
    Opinium lead Xth June: ???

    Opinium looks particularly susceptible to the short-term impact of stories that receive saturation coverage in the media - Wallpapergate and Cummingsgate II most recently (like World Wars, we've started numbering them!). Then the saturation coverage ends and the long-term trend reasserts itself. YouGov, by contrast, astutely filters out the most highly-engaged voters and so tends to avoid the whiplash effect produced by the volatile moods of the obsessives following every syllable of the proceedings:

    What this shows is the path to victory for Labour. Starmer needs to make the corruption charges stick, and make sure every voter knows. (To a first approximation, this is what the Conservatives did in 2019: work out what claims sunk Corbyn then blast them out via social media. I expect CCHQ is already probing Starmer's defences; oddly, the claim I expected to be most effective seemed to be tried and dropped early on.)

    So keep an eye on PMQs to see if Starmer has found anything in Cummings' testimony.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    The question that was put to me re "engineered virus" was this:

    Ok, so we've made some changes to the virus. How do we know that it has made the virus more virulent?

    CV19 spread more widely, and did more damage, than SARS not because it was more transmissible, but because there are a lot of asymptomatic and presymptomatic carriers.

    It is not simply am "amped up" version of a virus is nature (in the way that South African or Kent variants are more potent at evading the body's immune systems and spreading faster).

    What makes it so effective is something that requires significant time in humans to observe. How works the virologists know this and design for this, when our understanding of how viruses work is so limited?

    Remember, the virus is one step further away from mRNA. The virus outputs mRNA to tell our cells what to produce. We've only got to a reasonable level of understanding of mRNA this year. The designed virus hypothesis requires the Chinese researchers to be be a decade or more ahead of those in the West.

    Which is possible. But it's quite hard to hide the fact that you know so very much more than other people.
    This is a really odd, contorted take. All we need to know is Was the Wuhan lab conducting Gain of Function research into SARS-like bat viruses?

    The answer is Yes. And they were getting somewhere, in making nastier viruses, according to their lovely ally and funder, Peter Daszak

    "Peter Daszak on December 9, 2019: “we now found over a 100 new SARS-related coronaviruses. Some of them get into human cells in the lab, some can cause SARS disease in humanized mice models and are untreatable with therapeutic monoclonals, and you cannot vaccinate against them”."


    https://twitter.com/ydeigin/status/1263535331162406916?s=20
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    FPT @rcs1000

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    There are two or three specific variants in the COVID-19 virus that massively increases its efficacy as a human vital agent (eg the precise design and location of the furin cleavage site)

    To have one of these mutations would be highly unusual. To have multiple mutations, that occurred simultaneously (or at least where we have been completely unable to identify the precursors) is highly highly improbable.

    The simple answer is probably the correct one. It is also extremely dull and unexciting:

    1. The lab collected the base virus. We know they collected similar viruses
    2. The lab tweaked the virus. We know they were undertaking gain of function modifications (from grant applications) including insertion of the furin cleavage site (from published papers)
    3. The virus escaped from the lab

    It’s a combination of stupidity, greed, negligence, and sheer bad luck. Like pretty much every other disaster that has occurred in the modern world.

    To the extent that China is to be blamed it is in respect of slipshod regulation, a cover up and their willingness to encourage foreign travel at a time they knew what was coming

    Interesting

    They also did much of their research, it turns out, in a BSL2 lab, which has a few masks and labcoats, like a dentist, not the BSL4 maximum security lab with its hazmat suits

    The BSL2 lab is much nearer the wet market. If we're looking for an actual source, we should look at the lower level lab
    To be fair to the Chinese, that is permitted under the way that global virologists gamed the system. Fucking stupid, but legal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    No, not touching distance. It is 5 more years of asking inane questions which are never answered, of drafting policy documents that are never implemented, of the sheer indescribable boredom of opposition whilst several of your brightest and best go off to become Mayors because at least then you get to do something, its the change for SKS and many of the older members from being has beens to never was's, Its shit.

    No one even marginally sane goes into politics at all. No one who is not bat shit insane goes into politics to be the opposition.
    Yes, but 30 majority sinking by 50 in 18 months makes everything possible.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,889
    edited May 2021
    If you thought you were getting away with it that easily...

    Tonight's guest poll isn't from Europe at all but from Armenia (changes from last election);

    IKD~EPP: 39% (-31)
    HD-S&D: 30% (+26)
    BHK-ECR: 7% (-1)
    HK-*: 5% (+5)
    PUD-EPP: 5% (unc)

    Now, I'm sure we are all well versed in Armenian politics but to refresh a few memories - the My Step Alliance Grouping, a merger of Civil Contract and the Mission Party, won a landslide in the 2018 elections taking 70.4% of the vote and winning 88 of the 132 seats in the Armenian Parliament.

    Earlier this month, My Step (Im Kayly Dashnik in Armenian) (IKD) was dissolved when Civil Contract, the party of the Prime Minister, Nikol Pashminyan, decided they would run as an independent party in the forthcoming elections on June 20th - these were brought forward from 2023 following the unrest and turmoil resulting from Armenia's defeat by Azerbaijan in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict last year.

    Civil Contract faces a new challenger in the Armenian Alliance, formed three weeks ago, a joining together of the old Armenian Revolutionary Federation and the new Reborn Armenia.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    edited May 2021
    Another bit of circumstantial evidence. Thread:


    "Since 2014, Daszak's organization has received millions of dollars of funding from the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH), which it has funneled to the Wuhan Inst of Virology to carry out research on bat coronaviruses"


    "The second, more dangerous phase, which started in 2019, involved gain-of-function (GoF) research on coronaviruses and chimeras in humanized mice from the lab of Ralph S. Baric of the University of North Carolina."


    Here is the real kicker:

    "In a presentation titled "Assessing Coronavirus Threats," which was delivered four years before the pandemic in 2015, Daszak points out that experiments involving humanized mice have the highest degree of risk."

    https://twitter.com/Smackenziekerr/status/1352445421323337729?s=20

    What's that? Risk? Highest risk of WHAT??

    The referenced paper is here

    www.nationalacademies.org
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    FPT @rcs1000

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    There are two or three specific variants in the COVID-19 virus that massively increases its efficacy as a human vital agent (eg the precise design and location of the furin cleavage site)

    To have one of these mutations would be highly unusual. To have multiple mutations, that occurred simultaneously (or at least where we have been completely unable to identify the precursors) is highly highly improbable.

    The simple answer is probably the correct one. It is also extremely dull and unexciting:

    1. The lab collected the base virus. We know they collected similar viruses
    2. The lab tweaked the virus. We know they were undertaking gain of function modifications (from grant applications) including insertion of the furin cleavage site (from published papers)
    3. The virus escaped from the lab

    It’s a combination of stupidity, greed, negligence, and sheer bad luck. Like pretty much every other disaster that has occurred in the modern world.

    To the extent that China is to be blamed it is in respect of slipshod regulation, a cover up and their willingness to encourage foreign travel at a time they knew what was coming

    Interesting

    They also did much of their research, it turns out, in a BSL2 lab, which has a few masks and labcoats, like a dentist, not the BSL4 maximum security lab with its hazmat suits

    The BSL2 lab is much nearer the wet market. If we're looking for an actual source, we should look at the lower level lab
    To be fair to the Chinese, that is permitted under the way that global virologists gamed the system. Fucking stupid, but legal.
    Fair enough, but it seems Shi never mentioned this, at first. Or she certainly avoided the point, and the Chinese kept stressing how all the work was done at BSL4
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    No, not touching distance. It is 5 more years of asking inane questions which are never answered, of drafting policy documents that are never implemented, of the sheer indescribable boredom of opposition whilst several of your brightest and best go off to become Mayors because at least then you get to do something, its the change for SKS and many of the older members from being has beens to never was's, Its shit.

    No one even marginally sane goes into politics at all. No one who is not bat shit insane goes into politics to be the opposition.
    Yes, but 30 majority sinking by 50 in 18 months makes everything possible.
    Unless I'm mistaken, the majority is still around 80, and will be around that until the next election.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,237
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    No, not touching distance. It is 5 more years of asking inane questions which are never answered, of drafting policy documents that are never implemented, of the sheer indescribable boredom of opposition whilst several of your brightest and best go off to become Mayors because at least then you get to do something, its the change for SKS and many of the older members from being has beens to never was's, Its shit.

    No one even marginally sane goes into politics at all. No one who is not bat shit insane goes into politics to be the opposition.
    Yes, but 30 majority sinking by 50 in 18 months makes everything possible.
    Also, a majority of 80 makes you pretty much rebellion proof. A majority of 30 means that it's much harder to get anything controversial through. Possible, but it's much uglier. Compare Major before and after April 1992.

    But yes- being in opposition sucks. Parties that would rather have the perfect LotO rather than an imperfect PM are decadent and foolish. And yet they all do it at some point in the opposition cycle of grief.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    For a smart guy, you are singularly stupid, surprisingly often

    I wonder why virologists might be unkeen on the "design theory". Sit down and try and think about it, if you can

    There. See?

    If it is ever proven that an altered, weaponised virus escaped a lab and killed many millions then the careers of many virologists will come to an end overnight. No more research grants, no more international conferences, no labs where they can tinker with microbes, nothing. Their professional lives will cease as they know it, and they will come under deep and unpleasant scrutiny.

    A few might end up in jail. They will also be globally denounced and unpopular. I can see the odd one or two getting lynched. Seriously

    In that atmosphere, if you were a virologist, which scenario would you loudly favour, lab or market? You might tell yourself you are neutral and scientific, but really, you aren't. You're human and you are desperate to believe this didn't come from a lab, and that is affecting your judgement

    We've seen it with some of the specialists on here
    The question that was put to me re "engineered virus" was this:

    Ok, so we've made some changes to the virus. How do we know that it has made the virus more virulent?

    CV19 spread more widely, and did more damage, than SARS not because it was more transmissible, but because there are a lot of asymptomatic and presymptomatic carriers.

    It is not simply am "amped up" version of a virus is nature (in the way that South African or Kent variants are more potent at evading the body's immune systems and spreading faster).

    What makes it so effective is something that requires significant time in humans to observe. How works the virologists know this and design for this, when our understanding of how viruses work is so limited?

    Remember, the virus is one step further away from mRNA. The virus outputs mRNA to tell our cells what to produce. We've only got to a reasonable level of understanding of mRNA this year. The designed virus hypothesis requires the Chinese researchers to be be a decade or more ahead of those in the West.

    Which is possible. But it's quite hard to hide the fact that you know so very much more than other people.
    You inject it into humanised mice?

    Your argument proves too much; it proves that virology is just too difficult to do, and therefore there are no virologists. What point would there be in doing gain of function research if there is no way of knowing whether function has been gained!
    Google the phrase "assessing coronavirus threats" and you will be directed to a 2015 paper by Peter "Wuhan" Daszak, in which he seems to claim that the riskiest type of research, in this field, is that involving "humanized mice and other animals". The risk is: spillover

    Yet this is the research they went on to do?!

    I may be misreading it, I am not a virologist. Thank God
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,889
    HYUFD said:


    In Germany looks like will be a Union and Green coalition unless the FDP decide to do a deal with the SPD and Greens.

    In Greece Syriza has now faded like Corbyn Labour.

    In Ireland it certainly looks like SF on the left and pushing hardest for a United Ireland and FG on the centre right are becoming the main parties but FF, traditionally a bit more socially conservative and closest to the Catholic Church, is now fading.

    FG will still need FF support to keep SF out of power however

    Agreed re Greece - New Democracy looks in an even better position than the British Conservative Party.

    Ireland is also intriguing - do you think we are seeing a re-alignment? FG has always seemed to me to be the Irish embodiment of liberal conservatism and has always had more strength in urban than rural areas - the latter being dominated by the socially conservative Fianna Fail. Sinn Fein's return to political prominence has shaken everything up but, as you say, it's hard to see either FF or FG working with or supporting an SF government. I feat that may only hold the line for a while and one day the UK Government may end up having to deal with an elected Sinn Fein Government in Dublin.

    How do you think it will end up in Germany? I think it's 60-40 the Union still being the largest party in the next Bundestag but perfectly conceivable there will be an alternative coalition formed headed by the Greens which could command a small majority.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Peru has revised its Covid death toll up to 180k. Nearly treble. In line with excess deaths.
    And Osaka has pulled out of the French Open rather than answer press questions.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    On Topic is SKS doing shit or shit?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    No, not touching distance. It is 5 more years of asking inane questions which are never answered, of drafting policy documents that are never implemented, of the sheer indescribable boredom of opposition whilst several of your brightest and best go off to become Mayors because at least then you get to do something, its the change for SKS and many of the older members from being has beens to never was's, Its shit.

    No one even marginally sane goes into politics at all. No one who is not bat shit insane goes into politics to be the opposition.
    Yes, but 30 majority sinking by 50 in 18 months makes everything possible.
    Unless I'm mistaken, the majority is still around 80, and will be around that until the next election.
    But if we're going to talk about polls we have to translate them into hypothetical outcomes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    FPT @rcs1000

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    There are two or three specific variants in the COVID-19 virus that massively increases its efficacy as a human vital agent (eg the precise design and location of the furin cleavage site)

    To have one of these mutations would be highly unusual. To have multiple mutations, that occurred simultaneously (or at least where we have been completely unable to identify the precursors) is highly highly improbable.

    The simple answer is probably the correct one. It is also extremely dull and unexciting:

    1. The lab collected the base virus. We know they collected similar viruses
    2. The lab tweaked the virus. We know they were undertaking gain of function modifications (from grant applications) including insertion of the furin cleavage site (from published papers)
    3. The virus escaped from the lab

    It’s a combination of stupidity, greed, negligence, and sheer bad luck. Like pretty much every other disaster that has occurred in the modern world.

    To the extent that China is to be blamed it is in respect of slipshod regulation, a cover up and their willingness to encourage foreign travel at a time they knew what was coming

    Interesting

    They also did much of their research, it turns out, in a BSL2 lab, which has a few masks and labcoats, like a dentist, not the BSL4 maximum security lab with its hazmat suits

    The BSL2 lab is much nearer the wet market. If we're looking for an actual source, we should look at the lower level lab
    To be fair to the Chinese, that is permitted under the way that global virologists gamed the system. Fucking stupid, but legal.
    Fair enough, but it seems Shi never mentioned this, at first. Or she certainly avoided the point, and the Chinese kept stressing how all the work was done at BSL4
    How about a different tack. Why should the "natural" origin be doubted?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    FPT @rcs1000

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    There are two or three specific variants in the COVID-19 virus that massively increases its efficacy as a human vital agent (eg the precise design and location of the furin cleavage site)

    To have one of these mutations would be highly unusual. To have multiple mutations, that occurred simultaneously (or at least where we have been completely unable to identify the precursors) is highly highly improbable.

    The simple answer is probably the correct one. It is also extremely dull and unexciting:

    1. The lab collected the base virus. We know they collected similar viruses
    2. The lab tweaked the virus. We know they were undertaking gain of function modifications (from grant applications) including insertion of the furin cleavage site (from published papers)
    3. The virus escaped from the lab

    It’s a combination of stupidity, greed, negligence, and sheer bad luck. Like pretty much every other disaster that has occurred in the modern world.

    To the extent that China is to be blamed it is in respect of slipshod regulation, a cover up and their willingness to encourage foreign travel at a time they knew what was coming

    Interesting

    They also did much of their research, it turns out, in a BSL2 lab, which has a few masks and labcoats, like a dentist, not the BSL4 maximum security lab with its hazmat suits

    The BSL2 lab is much nearer the wet market. If we're looking for an actual source, we should look at the lower level lab
    To be fair to the Chinese, that is permitted under the way that global virologists gamed the system. Fucking stupid, but legal.
    Fair enough, but it seems Shi never mentioned this, at first. Or she certainly avoided the point, and the Chinese kept stressing how all the work was done at BSL4
    How about a different tack. Why should the "natural" origin be doubted?
    There are some very specific mutations. The probability of all of them occurring in the right way in nature is very low. And we have no chain of precursor viruses
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    FPT @rcs1000

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    Interesting counter-conspiratorial arguments to the lab leak theory.

    https://twitter.com/PAstynome/status/1399151529098158082

    If it was a lab leak, why did the Chinese do such a useless job of combatting it?



    To be fair, I can think of lots of good reasons, the most likely of which is that the people in the lab will have tried to cover up any leak. The Chinese government is unlikely to be kind to people who killed thousands, shut the entire country down, and opened China up to significant criticism from abroad.

    The fact that they have been so shit in dealing with it, and have such poor vaccines, is however evidence against them having deliberately created this virus as a weapon and released it into the wild. (Mind you, there's lots of other evidence against that too: like why would you release it in your own country.)

    Doesn't rule out deliberate development but accidental release.
    It does not.

    However, many of the people pushing the deliberate design hypothesis seem ignorant of basic science - such as the "scientist" quoted in the Daily Mail article yesterday (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html) which contains the following line:

    'The laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row. The only way you can get this is if you artificially manufacture it,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com.

    Which is simply not true.

    Ignoring the fact that if the laws of physics prevent it, then you probably can't do it in a lab, the reality is that nature (and the human body itself) is chock full of four positively charged amino acids in a row.

    CV19's genome is 96% the same as an existing bat virus. It's possible that the other 4% is man made. But the reality is that new diseases cross the animal-human barrier all the time, and 96% the same as something we have already seen is pretty much par for the course. If it was 75%, that would be amazing, but 96% is slap bang in the middle of normal variations

    There are lots of possibles here: it's possible that 100 different bat viruses escaped the lab, and the reason this one survived is because it was the most transmissible.

    It's also entirely possible that this virus crossed the animal-human barrier somewhere else, and Wuhan was just unlucky.

    But those people who know about virology and amino acids seem to be a lot more sceptical of the "designed" theory than you.
    There are two or three specific variants in the COVID-19 virus that massively increases its efficacy as a human vital agent (eg the precise design and location of the furin cleavage site)

    To have one of these mutations would be highly unusual. To have multiple mutations, that occurred simultaneously (or at least where we have been completely unable to identify the precursors) is highly highly improbable.

    The simple answer is probably the correct one. It is also extremely dull and unexciting:

    1. The lab collected the base virus. We know they collected similar viruses
    2. The lab tweaked the virus. We know they were undertaking gain of function modifications (from grant applications) including insertion of the furin cleavage site (from published papers)
    3. The virus escaped from the lab

    It’s a combination of stupidity, greed, negligence, and sheer bad luck. Like pretty much every other disaster that has occurred in the modern world.

    To the extent that China is to be blamed it is in respect of slipshod regulation, a cover up and their willingness to encourage foreign travel at a time they knew what was coming

    Interesting

    They also did much of their research, it turns out, in a BSL2 lab, which has a few masks and labcoats, like a dentist, not the BSL4 maximum security lab with its hazmat suits

    The BSL2 lab is much nearer the wet market. If we're looking for an actual source, we should look at the lower level lab
    To be fair to the Chinese, that is permitted under the way that global virologists gamed the system. Fucking stupid, but legal.
    Fair enough, but it seems Shi never mentioned this, at first. Or she certainly avoided the point, and the Chinese kept stressing how all the work was done at BSL4
    How about a different tack. Why should the "natural" origin be doubted?
    Because China is putting an enormous effort into finding Animal Zero, testing 80,000 creatures so far, and they've got nothing. There is no positive evidence for the natural not-lab hypothesis, the only argument is that these viruses generally start this way, with natural zoonosis. The more time passes without this crucial evidence, the less likely the hypothesis becomes

    In addition, we have the mystery of a virus whose closest relative is in a bat in Yunnan, 1000 miles from Wuhan. Bats are not sold in the Wuhan wet market, nor anywhere else in Wuhan. And somehow this virus went from Yunnan to Wuhan and evolved without infecting anyone on the way....

    Of course, we do know one way the bats might have got from Yunnan to Wuhan. The Wuhan Institute of Virology was collecting infected bats in Yunnan, and bringing them back to Wuhan for study, for several years, prior to the pandemic
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    "Twickenham scrum as over-18s flock to get Covid vaccines

    Such was the enthusiasm for one of the biggest walk-in vaccination events in England that queues had started to form by 8.30am"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/31/twickenham-scrum-over-18s-flock-get-covid-vaccines/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Well, as we know, there's polling and there's polling so I thought I'd liven your Monday evening with another of my "European tours" of the polls.

    Let's kick off in Germany with another INSA poll (changes since last poll):
    CDU/CSU-EPP: 25.5% (-0.5)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 21.5% (-0.5)
    SPD-S&D: 15.5% (-0.5)
    FDP-RE: 13.5% (+1)
    AfD-ID: 11% (-0.5)
    LINKE-LEFT: 6.5%

    Another "high" number for the FDP and within just two points of the SPD - the thought the FDP might come third in front of the SPD now looks at least plausible even if still incredible.

    One part of Europe where politics looks quite stable currently is Greece - remember, the Greece that was going to crash out of the Euro, the Greece whose chaos overshadowed the formation of the Coalition in 2010?

    Changes since last election (2019)

    ND-EPP: 47% (+7)
    SYRIZA-LEFT: 25% (-6)
    KINAL-S&D: 8% (unc)
    KKE-NI: 7% (+2)
    EL-ECR: 5% (+1)
    MeRA25~LEFT: 4% (unc)

    On these numbers, Mitsotakis and the New Democracy Government would be re-elected with an increased majority but the election isn't until July 2023.

    Closer to home and the latest Red C poll from Ireland (changes from 2020 election)

    SF-LEFT: 29% (+4)
    FG-EPP: 29% (+8)
    FF-RE: 14% (-8)
    Greens-G/EFA: 5% (-2)
    SOC DEM→S&D: 5% (+2)
    LAB-S&D: 3% (-1)
    S-PBP~LEFT: 2% (unc)
    AONTU-*: 2% (unc)

    I wonder if we are seeing a re-alignment to a new duopoly with the FF/FG split which has dominated Irish politics for decades being replaced by a new SF/FG split with FF fading away.

    In Germany looks like will be a Union and Green coalition unless the FDP decide to do a deal with the SPD and Greens.

    In Greece Syriza has now faded like Corbyn Labour.

    In Ireland it certainly looks like SF on the left and pushing hardest for a United Ireland and FG on the centre right are becoming the main parties but FF, traditionally a bit more socially conservative and closest to the Catholic Church, is now fading.

    FG will still need FF support to keep SF out of power however
    Most polls show the CDU/CSU and Greens falling short of an absolute majority, so maybe the FDP will be invited to join the coalition as well.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,030

    On Topic is SKS doing shit or shit?

    Less shit than Jezza
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,596
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    30 is what was called a decent working majority in all those 70s BBC election shows.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Omnium said:

    isam said:

    Opinium lead 23rd April: 11
    Opinium lead 30th April: 5
    Opinium lead 14th May: 13
    Opinium lead 28th May: 6
    Opinium lead Xth June: ???

    Opinium looks particularly susceptible to the short-term impact of stories that receive saturation coverage in the media - Wallpapergate and Cummingsgate II most recently (like World Wars, we've started numbering them!). Then the saturation coverage ends and the long-term trend reasserts itself. YouGov, by contrast, astutely filters out the most highly-engaged voters and so tends to avoid the whiplash effect produced by the volatile moods of the obsessives following every syllable of the proceedings:

    The fact YouGov do that is great. I think it makes them the best pollsters.

    But, given the worst poll for the Tories has them with a 30 seat majority, how is Con Maj EVS?
    All the usual reasons.

    - The election will be 2024ish rather than tomorrow (if a very early election was forced it's be a negative). This means that there's lot of time for events to change the picture, and the government has a lot of future issues ahead with debt/deficits/nhs wages/etc

    - Election campaigns can change a lot.

    - There's some slight disaster insurance bias. Larger bettors are probably more likely to be richer, and would likely prefer a Tory government for economic reasons - thus are less likely to be doubling up by also backing them.
    Of course, I know all that. If an Election were held tomorrow the price wouldn't be EVs, it would probably be more like 1/6.

    But all things considered, an 80 seat majority, up to 14 points ahead in the polls vs a divided opposition with a leader that is less charismatic than the PM, what would it take for that 1/6 shot to become EVS? Much, much too much for the EVS not to be a bet in my opinion
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Much too early to draw conclusions. Johnson's character personality and behavioural flaws are now out there and in plain sight. It just takes a slight shift in circumstance for those to move centre stage. At the moment voters are comparing the relative honesty of Cummings and Johnson. This will become a complete irrelevance and all you'll be left with is a very damaged Johnson trying to hold the line.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    At some point we have to address the question of what we do if we decide, on balance (I doubt there will ever be 100% conclusive evidence) that it DID come from the lab


    How will we deal with that? What does it do to science? It sure screws virology. No more "gain of function". And what will it do to our relations with China?

    Here's a Telegraph article saying a lab leak "confirmation" will lead to an economic crash. I think it is hyperbolic, but it is interesting

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/05/31/wuhan-lab-leak-may-biggest-economic-shock-decades/
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    On Topic is SKS doing shit or shit?

    Less shit than Jezza
    Voters dont seem to agree he lost 350 Councillors that even Corbyn managed to get elected.

    A By Election too

    Another one at start of July

    Whats your version of less shit
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,059
    edited May 2021
    "Covid: WHO renames UK and other variants with Greek letters"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57308592

    Finally a use for all of you with your Classics degrees ;)

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    edited May 2021

    On Topic is SKS doing shit or shit?

    Less shit than Jezza
    Voters dont seem to agree he lost 350 Councillors that even Corbyn managed to get elected.

    A By Election too

    Another one at start of July

    Whats your version of less shit
    Labour did get a slightly higher local elections voteshare though of 29% in May compared to the 28% it got in 2019 in Corbyn's last local elections as leader
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Leon said:

    At some point we have to address the question of what we do if we decide, on balance (I doubt there will ever be 100% conclusive evidence) that it DID come from the lab


    How will we deal with that? What does it do to science? It sure screws virology. No more "gain of function". And what will it do to our relations with China?

    Here's a Telegraph article saying a lab leak "confirmation" will lead to an economic crash. I think it is hyperbolic, but it is interesting

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/05/31/wuhan-lab-leak-may-biggest-economic-shock-decades/

    Interesting timing on the Chinese change in family planning rules. They must be worried about their population growth
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    edited May 2021
    HYUFD said:

    On Topic is SKS doing shit or shit?

    Less shit than Jezza
    Voters dont seem to agree he lost 350 Councillors that even Corbyn managed to get elected.

    A By Election too

    Another one at start of July

    Whats your version of less shit
    Labour did get a slightly higher voteshare though of 29% compared to the 28% it got in 2019 in Corbyn's last local elections as leader
    2016/2017 was the equivalent of 2021 as you well know

    I can understand you defending SKS mind Tory reelection nailed on
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Well, as we know, there's polling and there's polling so I thought I'd liven your Monday evening with another of my "European tours" of the polls.

    Let's kick off in Germany with another INSA poll (changes since last poll):
    CDU/CSU-EPP: 25.5% (-0.5)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 21.5% (-0.5)
    SPD-S&D: 15.5% (-0.5)
    FDP-RE: 13.5% (+1)
    AfD-ID: 11% (-0.5)
    LINKE-LEFT: 6.5%

    Another "high" number for the FDP and within just two points of the SPD - the thought the FDP might come third in front of the SPD now looks at least plausible even if still incredible.

    One part of Europe where politics looks quite stable currently is Greece - remember, the Greece that was going to crash out of the Euro, the Greece whose chaos overshadowed the formation of the Coalition in 2010?

    Changes since last election (2019)

    ND-EPP: 47% (+7)
    SYRIZA-LEFT: 25% (-6)
    KINAL-S&D: 8% (unc)
    KKE-NI: 7% (+2)
    EL-ECR: 5% (+1)
    MeRA25~LEFT: 4% (unc)

    On these numbers, Mitsotakis and the New Democracy Government would be re-elected with an increased majority but the election isn't until July 2023.

    Closer to home and the latest Red C poll from Ireland (changes from 2020 election)

    SF-LEFT: 29% (+4)
    FG-EPP: 29% (+8)
    FF-RE: 14% (-8)
    Greens-G/EFA: 5% (-2)
    SOC DEM→S&D: 5% (+2)
    LAB-S&D: 3% (-1)
    S-PBP~LEFT: 2% (unc)
    AONTU-*: 2% (unc)

    I wonder if we are seeing a re-alignment to a new duopoly with the FF/FG split which has dominated Irish politics for decades being replaced by a new SF/FG split with FF fading away.

    In Germany looks like will be a Union and Green coalition unless the FDP decide to do a deal with the SPD and Greens.

    In Greece Syriza has now faded like Corbyn Labour.

    In Ireland it certainly looks like SF on the left and pushing hardest for a United Ireland and FG on the centre right are becoming the main parties but FF, traditionally a bit more socially conservative and closest to the Catholic Church, is now fading.

    FG will still need FF support to keep SF out of power however
    Most polls show the CDU/CSU and Greens falling short of an absolute majority, so maybe the FDP will be invited to join the coalition as well.
    Possible, that would be the strongest Coalition possible
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Opinium lead 23rd April: 11
    Opinium lead 30th April: 5
    Opinium lead 14th May: 13
    Opinium lead 28th May: 6
    Opinium lead Xth June: ???

    Opinium looks particularly susceptible to the short-term impact of stories that receive saturation coverage in the media - Wallpapergate and Cummingsgate II most recently (like World Wars, we've started numbering them!). Then the saturation coverage ends and the long-term trend reasserts itself. YouGov, by contrast, astutely filters out the most highly-engaged voters and so tends to avoid the whiplash effect produced by the volatile moods of the obsessives following every syllable of the proceedings:

    The fact YouGov do that is great. I think it makes them the best pollsters.

    But, given the worst poll for the Tories has them with a 30 seat majority, how is Con Maj EVS?
    Should be 4/6 for me.

    Starmer does like The Jam btw. He especially likes the album of theirs which you said is your favourite. The one you mentioned the other day. He loves that album too.
    Oh jolly good. Doesn't make any difference though

    My Dad bought me a book for Christmas called "To Be Someone" by Ian D Stone. This IDS is a massive Jam fan and also a massive Arsenal fan, so two big ticks from me, he is in the good books in that respect. Also, my Dad has bought me the book, so I am motivated to read, and enjoy, it. It's the story of a teenager growing up in London supporting the Arsenal and loving The Jam, what's not to like?

    A couple of chapters in. getting a real modern left comedian vibe, not making me laugh, but making 'clever'; points. Then, a dig at Brexiteers, comparing Brexit to the numbskullery of the NF in the 70s - tough to take, but I plough on.

    Then starts a chapter by stating "Paul Weller was in his mid 20s when he wrote 'I Got By in Time' " - I KNOW Weller was a teenager when that song was released, but I check wiki anyway, hoping against hope to be wrong...

    No, I am right. I put the book back on the shelf and move on.

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    CatMan said:

    "Covid: WHO renames UK and other variants with Greek letters"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57308592

    Finally a use for all of you with your Classics degrees ;)

    Let's just hope that we never get to the end of the alphabet...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Omega_Man
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    In Germany looks like will be a Union and Green coalition unless the FDP decide to do a deal with the SPD and Greens.

    In Greece Syriza has now faded like Corbyn Labour.

    In Ireland it certainly looks like SF on the left and pushing hardest for a United Ireland and FG on the centre right are becoming the main parties but FF, traditionally a bit more socially conservative and closest to the Catholic Church, is now fading.

    FG will still need FF support to keep SF out of power however

    Agreed re Greece - New Democracy looks in an even better position than the British Conservative Party.

    Ireland is also intriguing - do you think we are seeing a re-alignment? FG has always seemed to me to be the Irish embodiment of liberal conservatism and has always had more strength in urban than rural areas - the latter being dominated by the socially conservative Fianna Fail. Sinn Fein's return to political prominence has shaken everything up but, as you say, it's hard to see either FF or FG working with or supporting an SF government. I feat that may only hold the line for a while and one day the UK Government may end up having to deal with an elected Sinn Fein Government in Dublin.

    How do you think it will end up in Germany? I think it's 60-40 the Union still being the largest party in the next Bundestag but perfectly conceivable there will be an alternative coalition formed headed by the Greens which could command a small majority.
    Most likely we are seeing some form of realignment in Ireland yes, with FG becoming the lead centre right party but also socially liberal, SF the main party of the left and FF trailing as an economically centrist but more socially conservative party.

    It may well be the UK government has to deal with SF in power in Dublin but of course ironically SF has been in power in Belfast since 1998, even if not as the largest party. So the UK government has had plenty of experience of dealing with SF.

    Most likely I think Germany will see another Union led government with either the Greens or the Greens and FDP, though there is a small chance of a Green led government if they get most seats with the SPD and FDP
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    edited May 2021

    HYUFD said:

    On Topic is SKS doing shit or shit?

    Less shit than Jezza
    Voters dont seem to agree he lost 350 Councillors that even Corbyn managed to get elected.

    A By Election too

    Another one at start of July

    Whats your version of less shit
    Labour did get a slightly higher voteshare though of 29% compared to the 28% it got in 2019 in Corbyn's last local elections as leader
    2016/2017 was the equivalent of 2021 as you well know

    I can understand you defending SKS mind Tory reelection nailed on
    Starmer also got a slightly higher voteshare than the 27% Corbyn got in the 2017 locals, even if he did slightly worse than the 31% Corbyn got in the 2016 locals
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378

    On Topic is SKS doing shit or shit?

    He has been a big disappointment.

    The simple fact that Labour are doing absolutely nothing to push Cummings' deaths by incompetence agenda is slightly unbelievable. Cummings has teed the ball up in front of the posts perfectly for Starmer, but he's still hunting for the ball and the bucket of sand.

    Still head and shoulders better than Corbs, RLB, Pidcock...and...Burgon!
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    CatMan said:

    "Covid: WHO renames UK and other variants with Greek letters"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57308592

    Finally a use for all of you with your Classics degrees ;)

    Well, at least the WHO's coming up with some nu ideas...
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    At some point we have to address the question of what we do if we decide, on balance (I doubt there will ever be 100% conclusive evidence) that it DID come from the lab


    How will we deal with that? What does it do to science? It sure screws virology. No more "gain of function". And what will it do to our relations with China?

    Here's a Telegraph article saying a lab leak "confirmation" will lead to an economic crash. I think it is hyperbolic, but it is interesting

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/05/31/wuhan-lab-leak-may-biggest-economic-shock-decades/

    Interesting timing on the Chinese change in family planning rules. They must be worried about their population growth
    You don't say!

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    CatMan said:

    "Covid: WHO renames UK and other variants with Greek letters"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57308592

    Finally a use for all of you with your Classics degrees ;)

    Well, at least the WHO's coming up with some nu ideas...
    No better way to kappa off the long weekend than a punning contest
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706

    CatMan said:

    "Covid: WHO renames UK and other variants with Greek letters"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57308592

    Finally a use for all of you with your Classics degrees ;)

    Well, at least the WHO's coming up with some nu ideas...
    There is a kappa on numbers that way.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    mwadams said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    30 is what was called a decent working majority in all those 70s BBC election shows.
    Although, in the 80s, in House of Cards, Francis Urquhart (no not that one) moves to oust Collingwood as he has only secured a "disappointing " majority of 30.
    So things change.
    30 would be the second biggest Tory majority since 1987.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706

    CatMan said:

    "Covid: WHO renames UK and other variants with Greek letters"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57308592

    Finally a use for all of you with your Classics degrees ;)

    Well, at least the WHO's coming up with some nu ideas...
    No better way to kappa off the long weekend than a punning contest
    You beta me to it...
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    "Covid: WHO renames UK and other variants with Greek letters"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57308592

    Finally a use for all of you with your Classics degrees ;)

    Well, at least the WHO's coming up with some nu ideas...
    No better way to kappa off the long weekend than a punning contest
    You beta me to it...
    And delta you a heavy blow
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378

    HYUFD said:

    On Topic is SKS doing shit or shit?

    Less shit than Jezza
    Voters dont seem to agree he lost 350 Councillors that even Corbyn managed to get elected.

    A By Election too

    Another one at start of July

    Whats your version of less shit
    Labour did get a slightly higher voteshare though of 29% compared to the 28% it got in 2019 in Corbyn's last local elections as leader
    2016/2017 was the equivalent of 2021 as you well know

    I can understand you defending SKS mind Tory reelection nailed on
    Ifs and buts I know. However where do you think we would be with LOTO Corbyn just after a pandemic has been ended by a very well managed vaccine programme on Johnson's watch? I would suggest considerably worse than they are currently.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    "Covid: WHO renames UK and other variants with Greek letters"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57308592

    Finally a use for all of you with your Classics degrees ;)

    Well, at least the WHO's coming up with some nu ideas...
    There is a kappa on numbers that way.
    That won't make an iota of difference
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    edited May 2021
    dixiedean said:

    mwadams said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    30 is what was called a decent working majority in all those 70s BBC election shows.
    Although, in the 80s, in House of Cards, Francis Urquhart (no not that one) moves to oust Collingwood as he has only secured a "disappointing " majority of 30.
    So things change.
    30 would be the second biggest Tory majority since 1987.
    Yes but 30 now would be how many in another 3 years? It is a scaleable hill rather than a 100+ mountain.

    Personally, I hope SKS goes next year, and the Corbynites stop sniping at his replacement.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,030

    CatMan said:

    "Covid: WHO renames UK and other variants with Greek letters"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57308592

    Finally a use for all of you with your Classics degrees ;)

    Well, at least the WHO's coming up with some nu ideas...
    We've been delta good hand for some Greek alphabet punning.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,059
    dixiedean said:

    mwadams said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    30 is what was called a decent working majority in all those 70s BBC election shows.
    Although, in the 80s, in House of Cards, Francis Urquhart (no not that one) moves to oust Collingwood as he has only secured a "disappointing " majority of 30.
    So things change.
    30 would be the second biggest Tory majority since 1987.
    Think of what Cameron achieved (destroyed?) with a majority of 12!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    I'm at least open-minded about a lab escape. There's plenty of coincidental evidence.

    And I definitely think China tried to cover it up for as long as it could, and silence those who spoke out.

    There could be all sorts of reasons for that but it's very far from unheard of in Xi's China.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Well, as we know, there's polling and there's polling so I thought I'd liven your Monday evening with another of my "European tours" of the polls.

    Let's kick off in Germany with another INSA poll (changes since last poll):
    CDU/CSU-EPP: 25.5% (-0.5)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 21.5% (-0.5)
    SPD-S&D: 15.5% (-0.5)
    FDP-RE: 13.5% (+1)
    AfD-ID: 11% (-0.5)
    LINKE-LEFT: 6.5%

    Another "high" number for the FDP and within just two points of the SPD - the thought the FDP might come third in front of the SPD now looks at least plausible even if still incredible.

    One part of Europe where politics looks quite stable currently is Greece - remember, the Greece that was going to crash out of the Euro, the Greece whose chaos overshadowed the formation of the Coalition in 2010?

    Changes since last election (2019)

    ND-EPP: 47% (+7)
    SYRIZA-LEFT: 25% (-6)
    KINAL-S&D: 8% (unc)
    KKE-NI: 7% (+2)
    EL-ECR: 5% (+1)
    MeRA25~LEFT: 4% (unc)

    On these numbers, Mitsotakis and the New Democracy Government would be re-elected with an increased majority but the election isn't until July 2023.

    Closer to home and the latest Red C poll from Ireland (changes from 2020 election)

    SF-LEFT: 29% (+4)
    FG-EPP: 29% (+8)
    FF-RE: 14% (-8)
    Greens-G/EFA: 5% (-2)
    SOC DEM→S&D: 5% (+2)
    LAB-S&D: 3% (-1)
    S-PBP~LEFT: 2% (unc)
    AONTU-*: 2% (unc)

    I wonder if we are seeing a re-alignment to a new duopoly with the FF/FG split which has dominated Irish politics for decades being replaced by a new SF/FG split with FF fading away.

    In Germany looks like will be a Union and Green coalition unless the FDP decide to do a deal with the SPD and Greens.

    In Greece Syriza has now faded like Corbyn Labour.

    In Ireland it certainly looks like SF on the left and pushing hardest for a United Ireland and FG on the centre right are becoming the main parties but FF, traditionally a bit more socially conservative and closest to the Catholic Church, is now fading.

    FG will still need FF support to keep SF out of power however
    Most polls show the CDU/CSU and Greens falling short of an absolute majority, so maybe the FDP will be invited to join the coalition as well.
    Below 50% yes.
    But not below what's needed when the smaller Parties who don't make 5% threshold are removed from the calculations. Then it becomes really knife edge.
    The FDP are very, very wary of the Greens and wouldn't join enthusiastically.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    mwadams said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Certainly a big range amongst the latest polling.

    While Yougov would give an increased Tory majority for example, Opinium would see the Tory majority fall from 80 to just 30

    Yeah but if you are Labour a Tory majority of "only" 30 is hardly a good result, is it. And then there's swing back of course.
    30 is within touching distance of NOC while 100ish is doomsday for Labour.
    30 is what was called a decent working majority in all those 70s BBC election shows.
    Although, in the 80s, in House of Cards, Francis Urquhart (no not that one) moves to oust Collingwood as he has only secured a "disappointing " majority of 30.
    So things change.
    30 would be the second biggest Tory majority since 1987.
    Yes but 30 now would be how many in another 3 years? It is a scaleable hill rather than a 100+ mountain.

    Personally, I hope SKS goes next year, and the Corbynites stop sniping at his replacement.
    Poor Keith, sent like a lambda to the slaughter...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    CatMan said:

    "Covid: WHO renames UK and other variants with Greek letters"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57308592

    Finally a use for all of you with your Classics degrees ;)

    Let's just hope that we never get to the end of the alphabet...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Omega_Man
    What I learn from that is that it took film makers three attempts to consider calling an adaption of I am Legend by its actual title.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    That's it. We've solved the aliens question

    They live IN LAKE BAIKAL. And they are three metre high humanoids in silvery suits

    "Another incident cited involved six unknown objects that followed a nuclear submarine in the Pacific. When the sub surfaced, so did the objects — which then lifted themselves out of the water and flew away.

    "In perhaps the most compelling account, military divers in Siberia's Lake Baikal, the world's deepest lake, encountered "a group of humanoid creatures dressed in silvery suits" at a depth of 160 feet. Three humans died during the ensuing chase."

    https://www.foxnews.com/story/russian-navy-reveals-its-secret-ufo-encounters


    Almost as intriguing, the objects in the lake behave exactly like the objects viewed, filmed and caught on radar by the USS Omaha in 2019....
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,821
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Opinium lead 23rd April: 11
    Opinium lead 30th April: 5
    Opinium lead 14th May: 13
    Opinium lead 28th May: 6
    Opinium lead Xth June: ???

    Opinium looks particularly susceptible to the short-term impact of stories that receive saturation coverage in the media - Wallpapergate and Cummingsgate II most recently (like World Wars, we've started numbering them!). Then the saturation coverage ends and the long-term trend reasserts itself. YouGov, by contrast, astutely filters out the most highly-engaged voters and so tends to avoid the whiplash effect produced by the volatile moods of the obsessives following every syllable of the proceedings:

    The fact YouGov do that is great. I think it makes them the best pollsters.

    But, given the worst poll for the Tories has them with a 30 seat majority, how is Con Maj EVS?
    Should be 4/6 for me.

    Starmer does like The Jam btw. He especially likes the album of theirs which you said is your favourite. The one you mentioned the other day. He loves that album too.
    Oh jolly good. Doesn't make any difference though

    My Dad bought me a book for Christmas called "To Be Someone" by Ian D Stone. This IDS is a massive Jam fan and also a massive Arsenal fan, so two big ticks from me, he is in the good books in that respect. Also, my Dad has bought me the book, so I am motivated to read, and enjoy, it. It's the story of a teenager growing up in London supporting the Arsenal and loving The Jam, what's not to like?

    A couple of chapters in. getting a real modern left comedian vibe, not making me laugh, but making 'clever'; points. Then, a dig at Brexiteers, comparing Brexit to the numbskullery of the NF in the 70s - tough to take, but I plough on.

    Then starts a chapter by stating "Paul Weller was in his mid 20s when he wrote 'I Got By in Time' " - I KNOW Weller was a teenager when that song was released, but I check wiki anyway, hoping against hope to be wrong...

    No, I am right. I put the book back on the shelf and move on.

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Opinium lead 23rd April: 11
    Opinium lead 30th April: 5
    Opinium lead 14th May: 13
    Opinium lead 28th May: 6
    Opinium lead Xth June: ???

    Opinium looks particularly susceptible to the short-term impact of stories that receive saturation coverage in the media - Wallpapergate and Cummingsgate II most recently (like World Wars, we've started numbering them!). Then the saturation coverage ends and the long-term trend reasserts itself. YouGov, by contrast, astutely filters out the most highly-engaged voters and so tends to avoid the whiplash effect produced by the volatile moods of the obsessives following every syllable of the proceedings:

    The fact YouGov do that is great. I think it makes them the best pollsters.

    But, given the worst poll for the Tories has them with a 30 seat majority, how is Con Maj EVS?
    Should be 4/6 for me.

    Starmer does like The Jam btw. He especially likes the album of theirs which you said is your favourite. The one you mentioned the other day. He loves that album too.
    Oh jolly good. Doesn't make any difference though

    My Dad bought me a book for Christmas called "To Be Someone" by Ian D Stone. This IDS is a massive Jam fan and also a massive Arsenal fan, so two big ticks from me, he is in the good books in that respect. Also, my Dad has bought me the book, so I am motivated to read, and enjoy, it. It's the story of a teenager growing up in London supporting the Arsenal and loving The Jam, what's not to like?

    A couple of chapters in. getting a real modern left comedian vibe, not making me laugh, but making 'clever'; points. Then, a dig at Brexiteers, comparing Brexit to the numbskullery of the NF in the 70s - tough to take, but I plough on.

    Then starts a chapter by stating "Paul Weller was in his mid 20s when he wrote 'I Got By in Time' " - I KNOW Weller was a teenager when that song was released, but I check wiki anyway, hoping against hope to be wrong...

    No, I am right. I put the book back on the shelf and move on.

    I remember seeing Ian Stone in a comedy club in Manchester in about 2007. He had a lot of politics, but no actual jokes.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,100
    Good evening

    Just returned home and switched on the 9.00 o clock news

    And predictably both Sky and BBC using the same zero covid scientists even one saying it is going to overwhelm the hospitals

    They need putting in their box as it is becoming quite ridiculous
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,749
    Leon said:

    At some point we have to address the question of what we do if we decide, on balance (I doubt there will ever be 100% conclusive evidence) that it DID come from the lab


    How will we deal with that? What does it do to science? It sure screws virology. No more "gain of function". And what will it do to our relations with China?

    Here's a Telegraph article saying a lab leak "confirmation" will lead to an economic crash. I think it is hyperbolic, but it is interesting

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/05/31/wuhan-lab-leak-may-biggest-economic-shock-decades/

    It will be fingers in the ears time. People don’t want to hear that the CPC is Nazi-lite. That the CPC is actively engaged in what they see as a clash of civilisations / Cold War and have been for two decades. That they view the world through a prism of not just cultural but racial superiority.

    We will plod along letting China steal our jobs, our IP and slowly but surely build a military and technological stranglehold as the century progresses.

    In the wars or struggles of old, the more introspective protagonists would stop to consider if god was on their side. I sit here wondering if the creators of those UFOs have a side.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,237

    I'm at least open-minded about a lab escape. There's plenty of coincidental evidence.

    And I definitely think China tried to cover it up for as long as it could, and silence those who spoke out.

    There could be all sorts of reasons for that but it's very far from unheard of in Xi's China.

    Holy shit, you mean China's on Xi already?!
    Do you ever wonder if people look at these punfests and Ψ?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Leon said:

    That's it. We've solved the aliens question

    They live IN LAKE BAIKAL. And they are three metre high humanoids in silvery suits

    "Another incident cited involved six unknown objects that followed a nuclear submarine in the Pacific. When the sub surfaced, so did the objects — which then lifted themselves out of the water and flew away.

    "In perhaps the most compelling account, military divers in Siberia's Lake Baikal, the world's deepest lake, encountered "a group of humanoid creatures dressed in silvery suits" at a depth of 160 feet. Three humans died during the ensuing chase."

    https://www.foxnews.com/story/russian-navy-reveals-its-secret-ufo-encounters


    Almost as intriguing, the objects in the lake behave exactly like the objects viewed, filmed and caught on radar by the USS Omaha in 2019....

    Mate, have you started taking heroin again or have you just spent too long in the sun today?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    At some point we have to address the question of what we do if we decide, on balance (I doubt there will ever be 100% conclusive evidence) that it DID come from the lab


    How will we deal with that? What does it do to science? It sure screws virology. No more "gain of function". And what will it do to our relations with China?

    Here's a Telegraph article saying a lab leak "confirmation" will lead to an economic crash. I think it is hyperbolic, but it is interesting

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/05/31/wuhan-lab-leak-may-biggest-economic-shock-decades/

    It will be fingers in the ears time. People don’t want to hear that the CPC is Nazi-lite. That the CPC is actively engaged in what they see as a clash of civilisations / Cold War and have been for two decades. That they view the world through a prism of not just cultural but racial superiority.

    We will plod along letting China steal our jobs, our IP and slowly but surely build a military and technological stranglehold as the century progresses.

    In the wars or struggles of old, the more introspective protagonists would stop to consider if god was on their side. I sit here wondering if the creators of those UFOs have a side.
    Life in China if you're not Han is tough.
This discussion has been closed.