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Publish and be Damned? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,128
edited May 2021 in General
imagePublish and be Damned? – politicalbetting.com

2 reports into events long ago: 34 and 26 years. The main protagonists are dead. Should anyone care, as the Today programme put it somewhat indelicately, about one murder so very long ago (Daniel Morgan)? Or even about an interview of a troubled Royal? The latter are two a penny these days. Police competence rather than corruption is a rather more pressing issue. We all know about the press’s dubious and sometimes illegal activities; besides the News of the World is no more. Journalists have always had, in Nicholas Tomalin’s words, to use “rat-like cunning” to get stories.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    FPT
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    I'm starting to wonder if Boris is a bit of a political genius. He seems to make the right policy decision, but by instinct. Or clever delegation?

    He makes mistakes that would kill others, yet emerges unscathed. He knows what will please his new voters, without alienating the old voters

    I can see why the likes of @kinabalu cordially detest him. He is quite an enemy to face

    Look at the number of crying wolf incidents that have led to... huge success for him

    Proroguing Parliament
    “People of colour” (people of talent)
    The ‘violent’ row with his girlfriend reported to The Guardian by Neighbours
    The holiday in Mustique
    No Deal Brexit being the plan
    The wallpaper
    “Piles of bodies”

    I feel his success is so unpalatable to his haters that several people have left this site rather than admit what you say. To be fair to @kinabalu, he has stayed and does admit it

    All these have supposedly been his downfall. The latest strategy is to say they’re all going to add up eventually, just you wait.

    He turns normal men into David Brent irked by Neil
    It goes on before all that:

    Conspiring with Darius Guppy to get a journalist beaten to a pulp.
    Falsely attributing incorrect historical statements to his godfather.
    Lying to Michael Howard about an affair.
    Jennifer Arcuri.

    The man really is a political phenomenon. We may never see his like again. Just enjoy it while it lasts!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    edited May 2021
    Bashir's methods may have been dubious but to be fair to him Diana herself agreed to the interview without regrets and I cannot get much worked up about this

    https://twitter.com/fifisyms/status/1395456727601008642?s=20
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    It's always the cover up, isn't it? What was done here by Bashir was shameful, dishonest and unprofessional. What was done by the BBC and Tony Hall in particular is truly shocking and deeply damaging. Lord Grade is right about that. If the lies and dishonesty had been disclosed timeously things might have been a little different.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    To be fair they did probably make the assumption german financial regulators were competent
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    fpt on TEA



    Black tea has massive health benefits


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6512146/

    "it should be noted that it is recommended that black tea to be consumed without any additives like milk or sugar"

    https://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/11-benefits-black-tea.html

    Once you get used to black, you never go back
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    BaFin has always been (a) incompetent; and (b) interested primarily in protecting the hometown players. It’s very German.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    The older I get the more disdain I have for journalists. I cannot forgive them as during the last year using they have squandered limited government scrutiny by repeatedly asking when we can go on holiday.

    I also cannot forgive them for their wrong-headedness on Boris and Brexit. Just pointing and saying people who support them are idiots is at the level of school newspaper.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    To be fair they did probably make the assumption german financial regulators were competent
    To those who know the history of Douche Bank - the real question is about the honesty of the German regulators.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited May 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.

    If you notice with things like the Gruardian stories of a similar nature they are now done by teaming up with a load of other media outlets.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited May 2021
    Re the discussion on diet, mine is quite woke. I’m a vegetarian like Sir Keir - for dinner tonight I had the kids goldfish!

    I have always been rather icky about dairy products and can’t stand milk, cream or cheese. The thought of where it comes from/it being slightly off is horrific. Oat/Almond milk on cereal/smoothies is nice. Dash of real milk in tea, no more

    We will surely eat less meat in future, everyone’s at it now. ‘Beyond Meat’ burgers are as tasty as the real thing without the guilt when you see a cow grazing. I feel quite guilty giving my toddler meat dishes, particularly mammals which I don’t really eat. Although I eat chicken, turkey and fish, and sometimes other meat maybe once every month or so, I don’t like it when people go on about how lovely/tender their meat dish was - feel like it should be a kind of dirty secret.


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Leon said:

    fpt on TEA



    Black tea has massive health benefits


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6512146/

    "it should be noted that it is recommended that black tea to be consumed without any additives like milk or sugar"

    https://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/11-benefits-black-tea.html

    Once you get used to black, you never go back

    I got used to black tea in the Soviet Union. They maintained it was better that way. Nothing to do with the incapacity of the communist system to provide fresh milk of course. But it stuck.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    Are you sure it isn't little green men emptying their space toilet?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    Smaller scale (£90m???) but our regulators are easily duped too.

    Founder of Football Index telling punters to max out their credit cards to invest in his pyramid scheme:

    https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1370015026829008909?lang=en-gb

    Shame on both the FCA and Gambling Commission.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800


    It goes on before all that:

    Conspiring with Darius Guppy to get a journalist beaten to a pulp.
    Falsely attributing incorrect historical statements to his godfather.
    Lying to Michael Howard about an affair.
    Jennifer Arcuri.

    The man really is a political phenomenon. We may never see his like again. Just enjoy it while it lasts!

    I was watching a snippet of Boris Johnson on Question Time in 1999. The questioner was extoling the virtues of organic agriculture and Boris set off on a tirade about British beef and how wonderful it was and then had a show at "organic" produce claiming it was small, dirty and overpriced and that got him a round of applause.

    Now, whether you think he actually believed that or not, he played to a view of that subject that was widely held at the time whether it was accurate or not.

    More than twenty years ago, you could see him as "different" from the other Conservative on that week's panel, one Theresa May. He was already working out what the "ordinary bloke" would be thinking on any subject and playing to that. Faced with an actual argument and a valid point, he would retreat onto safer ground.

    That's the secret of the success - articulating the viewpoint of the "person in the street" whether that view represents any version of the truth or not. If you say what you think the audience in front of you wants to hear, you won't go far wrong and remember this was 1999 when the Conservative Party was two years on from a huge defeat and he was getting an audience to applaud him.

    The question for me is whether he will walk away on his own terms one day or whether he will be the architect of his own misfortune. To say nothing succeeds like success is to forget all political careers end in failure and both Thatcher and Blair ended on a low note.

    In choosing Starmer, Labour hoped gravitas would triumph over levitas but politics doesn't work that way. If I were trying to defeat Johnson, I'd be looking at his strengths and seeing how to match and confound them. You have to be confident and show him neither fear nor respect - treat PMQs as though Johnson wasn't there and remember you're talking to a wider audience. Try some humour and the odd self-deprecating comment - the more normal you are, the more you weaken Johnson's strength.

    Johnson's weakness is detail - the forensic barb, the witty reposte are like counter-punches and on the occasions when Starmer has come out of his comfort zone, he's managed to get Johnson on edge and uncomfortable.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    isam said:

    Re the discussion on diet, mine is quite woke. I’m a vegetarian like Sir Keir - for dinner tonight I had the kids goldfish!

    I have always been rather icky about dairy products and can’t stand milk, cream or cheese. The thought of where it comes from/it being slightly off is horrific. Oat/Almond milk on cereal/smoothies is nice.

    We will surely eat less meat in future, everyone’s at it now. ‘Beyond Meat’ burgers are as tasty as the real thing without the guilt when you see a cow grazing. I feel quite guilty giving my toddler meat dishes, particularly mammals which I don’t really eat. Although I eat chicken, turkey and fish, and sometimes other meat maybe once every month or so, I don’t like it when people go on about how lovely/tender their meat dish was - feel like it should be a kind of dirty secret.


    Thats ok the less everyone else eats the cheaper it gets for me.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited May 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    The film of wirecard scandal as enough material to be absolutely great....my favourite bit was hiring the actors in the far east to pretend to auditors to be a bank, and they bought it.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Defund the BBC.........
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214
    Well said. Great header although must admit I dont know more than half th e references.

    Another blocker to investigative journalism I suspect is the law. You need to be backed by deep pockets I think to take on big business/the super wealthy. That's not good for our society.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,549
    Yet another first-rate contribution by Cyclefree.

    Must say it is NOT a good look for (some) Tories to go whistling through the graveyard re this issue.

    Esp. when your own Fearless Leader is a famous British "journalist" himself.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    isam said:

    Re the discussion on diet, mine is quite woke. I’m a vegetarian like Sir Keir - for dinner tonight I had the kids goldfish!

    I have always been rather icky about dairy products and can’t stand milk, cream or cheese. The thought of where it comes from/it being slightly off is horrific. Oat/Almond milk on cereal/smoothies is nice. Dash of real milk in tea, no more

    We will surely eat less meat in future, everyone’s at it now. ‘Beyond Meat’ burgers are as tasty as the real thing without the guilt when you see a cow grazing. I feel quite guilty giving my toddler meat dishes, particularly mammals which I don’t really eat. Although I eat chicken, turkey and fish, and sometimes other meat maybe once every month or so, I don’t like it when people go on about how lovely/tender their meat dish was - feel like it should be a kind of dirty secret.


    I have been conscientiously switching from mostly red meat to a broader mix including a lot more fish the last few years. Then watched seaspiracy and now have no idea if that is better or worse for the planet.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited May 2021

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    Smaller scale (£90m???) but our regulators are easily duped too.

    Founder of Football Index telling punters to max out their credit cards to invest in his pyramid scheme:

    https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1370015026829008909?lang=en-gb

    Shame on both the FCA and Gambling Commission.
    The gambling commission clearly had no idea what the product was. I remember somebody explaining it to me ages ago and it was obvious what the problem was.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    Smaller scale (£90m???) but our regulators are easily duped too.

    Founder of Football Index telling punters to max out their credit cards to invest in his pyramid scheme:

    https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1370015026829008909?lang=en-gb

    Shame on both the FCA and Gambling Commission.
    Oh, we're far from perfect as Greensill has proven.

    Although, of course, it's no coincindence that Greensill Bank, which was at the dodgiest end of the whole dodgy spectrum, was in Germany.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    Smaller scale (£90m???) but our regulators are easily duped too.

    Founder of Football Index telling punters to max out their credit cards to invest in his pyramid scheme:

    https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1370015026829008909?lang=en-gb

    Shame on both the FCA and Gambling Commission.
    The gambling commission clearly had no idea what the product was. I remember somebody explaining it to me ages ago and it was obvious what the problem was.
    Calling it a product is generous.....just a classic ponzi.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    isam said:

    Re the discussion on diet, mine is quite woke. I’m a vegetarian like Sir Keir - for dinner tonight I had the kids goldfish!

    I have always been rather icky about dairy products and can’t stand milk, cream or cheese. The thought of where it comes from/it being slightly off is horrific. Oat/Almond milk on cereal/smoothies is nice. Dash of real milk in tea, no more

    We will surely eat less meat in future, everyone’s at it now. ‘Beyond Meat’ burgers are as tasty as the real thing without the guilt when you see a cow grazing. I feel quite guilty giving my toddler meat dishes, particularly mammals which I don’t really eat. Although I eat chicken, turkey and fish, and sometimes other meat maybe once every month or so, I don’t like it when people go on about how lovely/tender their meat dish was - feel like it should be a kind of dirty secret.


    I have been conscientiously switching from mostly red meat to a broader mix including a lot more fish the last few years. Then watched seaspiracy and now have no idea if that is better or worse for the planet.
    Seaspiracy has debunk sites
    might want to watch those as well of course both sides will be propaganda so you have to work out where the balance of truth is
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,549

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    To be fair they did probably make the assumption german financial regulators were competent
    To those who know the history of Douche Bank - the real question is about the honesty of the German regulators.
    Seems that the myth of the "honest German regulator" dies as hard as that of the "good Wehrmacht".
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    isam said:

    Re the discussion on diet, mine is quite woke. I’m a vegetarian like Sir Keir - for dinner tonight I had the kids goldfish!

    I have always been rather icky about dairy products and can’t stand milk, cream or cheese. The thought of where it comes from/it being slightly off is horrific. Oat/Almond milk on cereal/smoothies is nice. Dash of real milk in tea, no more

    We will surely eat less meat in future, everyone’s at it now. ‘Beyond Meat’ burgers are as tasty as the real thing without the guilt when you see a cow grazing. I feel quite guilty giving my toddler meat dishes, particularly mammals which I don’t really eat. Although I eat chicken, turkey and fish, and sometimes other meat maybe once every month or so, I don’t like it when people go on about how lovely/tender their meat dish was - feel like it should be a kind of dirty secret.


    I will have been a veggie for 30 years later this year :)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    Pagan2 said:

    isam said:

    Re the discussion on diet, mine is quite woke. I’m a vegetarian like Sir Keir - for dinner tonight I had the kids goldfish!

    I have always been rather icky about dairy products and can’t stand milk, cream or cheese. The thought of where it comes from/it being slightly off is horrific. Oat/Almond milk on cereal/smoothies is nice. Dash of real milk in tea, no more

    We will surely eat less meat in future, everyone’s at it now. ‘Beyond Meat’ burgers are as tasty as the real thing without the guilt when you see a cow grazing. I feel quite guilty giving my toddler meat dishes, particularly mammals which I don’t really eat. Although I eat chicken, turkey and fish, and sometimes other meat maybe once every month or so, I don’t like it when people go on about how lovely/tender their meat dish was - feel like it should be a kind of dirty secret.


    I have been conscientiously switching from mostly red meat to a broader mix including a lot more fish the last few years. Then watched seaspiracy and now have no idea if that is better or worse for the planet.
    Seaspiracy has debunk sites
    might want to watch those as well of course both sides will be propaganda so you have to work out where the balance of truth is
    A lot of work. And I probably still wouldnt know with confidence, wish it was all easier.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    stodge said:


    It goes on before all that:

    Conspiring with Darius Guppy to get a journalist beaten to a pulp.
    Falsely attributing incorrect historical statements to his godfather.
    Lying to Michael Howard about an affair.
    Jennifer Arcuri.

    The man really is a political phenomenon. We may never see his like again. Just enjoy it while it lasts!

    I was watching a snippet of Boris Johnson on Question Time in 1999. The questioner was extoling the virtues of organic agriculture and Boris set off on a tirade about British beef and how wonderful it was and then had a show at "organic" produce claiming it was small, dirty and overpriced and that got him a round of applause.

    Now, whether you think he actually believed that or not, he played to a view of that subject that was widely held at the time whether it was accurate or not.

    More than twenty years ago, you could see him as "different" from the other Conservative on that week's panel, one Theresa May. He was already working out what the "ordinary bloke" would be thinking on any subject and playing to that. Faced with an actual argument and a valid point, he would retreat onto safer ground.

    That's the secret of the success - articulating the viewpoint of the "person in the street" whether that view represents any version of the truth or not. If you say what you think the audience in front of you wants to hear, you won't go far wrong and remember this was 1999 when the Conservative Party was two years on from a huge defeat and he was getting an audience to applaud him.

    The question for me is whether he will walk away on his own terms one day or whether he will be the architect of his own misfortune. To say nothing succeeds like success is to forget all political careers end in failure and both Thatcher and Blair ended on a low note.

    In choosing Starmer, Labour hoped gravitas would triumph over levitas but politics doesn't work that way. If I were trying to defeat Johnson, I'd be looking at his strengths and seeing how to match and confound them. You have to be confident and show him neither fear nor respect - treat PMQs as though Johnson wasn't there and remember you're talking to a wider audience. Try some humour and the odd self-deprecating comment - the more normal you are, the more you weaken Johnson's strength.

    Johnson's weakness is detail - the forensic barb, the witty reposte are like counter-punches and on the occasions when Starmer has come out of his comfort zone, he's managed to get Johnson on edge and uncomfortable.
    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Anyone watched ‘Exterminate All The Brutes’?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
    Sunil, please make it better. It is really fritzing my pitz. The worst May in history, and it happens to be THIS year?

    FFS

    I just want to walk out into warm sun. Once?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,549

    isam said:

    Re the discussion on diet, mine is quite woke. I’m a vegetarian like Sir Keir - for dinner tonight I had the kids goldfish!

    I have always been rather icky about dairy products and can’t stand milk, cream or cheese. The thought of where it comes from/it being slightly off is horrific. Oat/Almond milk on cereal/smoothies is nice. Dash of real milk in tea, no more

    We will surely eat less meat in future, everyone’s at it now. ‘Beyond Meat’ burgers are as tasty as the real thing without the guilt when you see a cow grazing. I feel quite guilty giving my toddler meat dishes, particularly mammals which I don’t really eat. Although I eat chicken, turkey and fish, and sometimes other meat maybe once every month or so, I don’t like it when people go on about how lovely/tender their meat dish was - feel like it should be a kind of dirty secret.


    I will have been a veggie for 30 years later this year :)
    Are you also demented? Like our own beloved "Demented Vegetable" Uncle Joe?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Pagan2 said:

    isam said:

    Re the discussion on diet, mine is quite woke. I’m a vegetarian like Sir Keir - for dinner tonight I had the kids goldfish!

    I have always been rather icky about dairy products and can’t stand milk, cream or cheese. The thought of where it comes from/it being slightly off is horrific. Oat/Almond milk on cereal/smoothies is nice. Dash of real milk in tea, no more

    We will surely eat less meat in future, everyone’s at it now. ‘Beyond Meat’ burgers are as tasty as the real thing without the guilt when you see a cow grazing. I feel quite guilty giving my toddler meat dishes, particularly mammals which I don’t really eat. Although I eat chicken, turkey and fish, and sometimes other meat maybe once every month or so, I don’t like it when people go on about how lovely/tender their meat dish was - feel like it should be a kind of dirty secret.


    I have been conscientiously switching from mostly red meat to a broader mix including a lot more fish the last few years. Then watched seaspiracy and now have no idea if that is better or worse for the planet.
    Seaspiracy has debunk sites
    might want to watch those as well of course both sides will be propaganda so you have to work out where the balance of truth is
    A lot of work. And I probably still wouldnt know with confidence, wish it was all easier.
    Sadly these days most stuff is so slanted as to be called propaganda. If you care about an issue have to do your own research.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578

    FPT

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    I'm starting to wonder if Boris is a bit of a political genius. He seems to make the right policy decision, but by instinct. Or clever delegation?

    He makes mistakes that would kill others, yet emerges unscathed. He knows what will please his new voters, without alienating the old voters

    I can see why the likes of @kinabalu cordially detest him. He is quite an enemy to face

    Look at the number of crying wolf incidents that have led to... huge success for him

    Proroguing Parliament
    “People of colour” (people of talent)
    The ‘violent’ row with his girlfriend reported to The Guardian by Neighbours
    The holiday in Mustique
    No Deal Brexit being the plan
    The wallpaper
    “Piles of bodies”

    I feel his success is so unpalatable to his haters that several people have left this site rather than admit what you say. To be fair to @kinabalu, he has stayed and does admit it

    All these have supposedly been his downfall. The latest strategy is to say they’re all going to add up eventually, just you wait.

    He turns normal men into David Brent irked by Neil
    It goes on before all that:

    Conspiring with Darius Guppy to get a journalist beaten to a pulp.
    Falsely attributing incorrect historical statements to his godfather.
    Lying to Michael Howard about an affair.
    Jennifer Arcuri.

    The man really is a political phenomenon. We may never see his like again. Just enjoy it while it lasts!
    "It is just flipping unbelievable. He is a mixture of Harry Houdini and a greased piglet. He is barely human in his elusiveness. Nailing Blair Boris is like trying to pin jelly to a wall!"
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Sorry i meant UK media, not worldwide. I don't think the FT does, I am sure I read even the Times Insight team had been scaled back. That isn't to say a journalist doesn't get put on a story long term emg FT / Wirecard, but fairly sure the Times is unique in having a bunch of journalists who are told your only job is to search out big detailed conplex stories that require a lot of leg work.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,048

    stodge said:


    It goes on before all that:

    Conspiring with Darius Guppy to get a journalist beaten to a pulp.
    Falsely attributing incorrect historical statements to his godfather.
    Lying to Michael Howard about an affair.
    Jennifer Arcuri.

    The man really is a political phenomenon. We may never see his like again. Just enjoy it while it lasts!

    I was watching a snippet of Boris Johnson on Question Time in 1999. The questioner was extoling the virtues of organic agriculture and Boris set off on a tirade about British beef and how wonderful it was and then had a show at "organic" produce claiming it was small, dirty and overpriced and that got him a round of applause.

    Now, whether you think he actually believed that or not, he played to a view of that subject that was widely held at the time whether it was accurate or not.

    More than twenty years ago, you could see him as "different" from the other Conservative on that week's panel, one Theresa May. He was already working out what the "ordinary bloke" would be thinking on any subject and playing to that. Faced with an actual argument and a valid point, he would retreat onto safer ground.

    That's the secret of the success - articulating the viewpoint of the "person in the street" whether that view represents any version of the truth or not. If you say what you think the audience in front of you wants to hear, you won't go far wrong and remember this was 1999 when the Conservative Party was two years on from a huge defeat and he was getting an audience to applaud him.

    The question for me is whether he will walk away on his own terms one day or whether he will be the architect of his own misfortune. To say nothing succeeds like success is to forget all political careers end in failure and both Thatcher and Blair ended on a low note.

    In choosing Starmer, Labour hoped gravitas would triumph over levitas but politics doesn't work that way. If I were trying to defeat Johnson, I'd be looking at his strengths and seeing how to match and confound them. You have to be confident and show him neither fear nor respect - treat PMQs as though Johnson wasn't there and remember you're talking to a wider audience. Try some humour and the odd self-deprecating comment - the more normal you are, the more you weaken Johnson's strength.

    Johnson's weakness is detail - the forensic barb, the witty reposte are like counter-punches and on the occasions when Starmer has come out of his comfort zone, he's managed to get Johnson on edge and uncomfortable.
    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.
    Mo Mowlam?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    FPT

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    I'm starting to wonder if Boris is a bit of a political genius. He seems to make the right policy decision, but by instinct. Or clever delegation?

    He makes mistakes that would kill others, yet emerges unscathed. He knows what will please his new voters, without alienating the old voters

    I can see why the likes of @kinabalu cordially detest him. He is quite an enemy to face

    Look at the number of crying wolf incidents that have led to... huge success for him

    Proroguing Parliament
    “People of colour” (people of talent)
    The ‘violent’ row with his girlfriend reported to The Guardian by Neighbours
    The holiday in Mustique
    No Deal Brexit being the plan
    The wallpaper
    “Piles of bodies”

    I feel his success is so unpalatable to his haters that several people have left this site rather than admit what you say. To be fair to @kinabalu, he has stayed and does admit it

    All these have supposedly been his downfall. The latest strategy is to say they’re all going to add up eventually, just you wait.

    He turns normal men into David Brent irked by Neil
    It goes on before all that:

    Conspiring with Darius Guppy to get a journalist beaten to a pulp.
    Falsely attributing incorrect historical statements to his godfather.
    Lying to Michael Howard about an affair.
    Jennifer Arcuri.

    The man really is a political phenomenon. We may never see his like again. Just enjoy it while it lasts!
    "It is just flipping unbelievable. He is a mixture of Harry Houdini and a greased piglet. He is barely human in his elusiveness. Nailing Blair Boris is like trying to pin jelly to a wall!"
    At the moment Boris is Blair, but without Iraq - which is pretty damn important

    It is quite tough for his opponents
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Sorry i meant UK media, not worldwide. I don't think the FT does, I am sure I read even the Times Insight team had been scaled back. That isn't to say a journalist doesn't get put on a story long term emg FT / Wirecard, but fairly sure the Times is unique in having a bunch of journalists who are told your only job is to search out big detailed conplex stories that require a lot of leg work.
    Sadly there is news the public is interested in and news the public should be interested in. However the first gets more money in whereas the latter probably costs money. More people probably read about janet jacksons nip slip for example than ever read articles about mp expenses
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Leon said:

    FPT

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    I'm starting to wonder if Boris is a bit of a political genius. He seems to make the right policy decision, but by instinct. Or clever delegation?

    He makes mistakes that would kill others, yet emerges unscathed. He knows what will please his new voters, without alienating the old voters

    I can see why the likes of @kinabalu cordially detest him. He is quite an enemy to face

    Look at the number of crying wolf incidents that have led to... huge success for him

    Proroguing Parliament
    “People of colour” (people of talent)
    The ‘violent’ row with his girlfriend reported to The Guardian by Neighbours
    The holiday in Mustique
    No Deal Brexit being the plan
    The wallpaper
    “Piles of bodies”

    I feel his success is so unpalatable to his haters that several people have left this site rather than admit what you say. To be fair to @kinabalu, he has stayed and does admit it

    All these have supposedly been his downfall. The latest strategy is to say they’re all going to add up eventually, just you wait.

    He turns normal men into David Brent irked by Neil
    It goes on before all that:

    Conspiring with Darius Guppy to get a journalist beaten to a pulp.
    Falsely attributing incorrect historical statements to his godfather.
    Lying to Michael Howard about an affair.
    Jennifer Arcuri.

    The man really is a political phenomenon. We may never see his like again. Just enjoy it while it lasts!
    "It is just flipping unbelievable. He is a mixture of Harry Houdini and a greased piglet. He is barely human in his elusiveness. Nailing Blair Boris is like trying to pin jelly to a wall!"
    At the moment Boris is Blair, but without Iraq - which is pretty damn important

    It is quite tough for his opponents
    Only for a while according to hyufd he will invade scotland with tanks
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,048
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Private Eye doesn't have much of an online presence, but it sells shit loads.

    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/private-eye-hits-highest-circulation-in-55-year-history-which-is-quite-something-given-that-print-is-meant-to-be-dead/

    This is from 2016, when it was selling around 280,000 every fortnight.

    It's around 240,000 now, which is still massive for the UK.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    isam said:

    Anyone watched ‘Exterminate All The Brutes’?

    It sounds interesting, but on pay for view on my sub, and I am not that bothered.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Sorry i meant UK media, not worldwide. I don't think the FT does, I am sure I read even the Times Insight team had been scaled back. That isn't to say a journalist doesn't get put on a story long term emg FT / Wirecard, but fairly sure the Times is unique in having a bunch of journalists who are told your only job is to search out big detailed conplex stories that require a lot of leg work.
    The market is in flux - but it will rationalise. I can see there being one big liberal "paper" - surely the Guardian in the UK, one big conservative paper, the Telegraph? With the Times doing fine in the middle and the FT as liberal-specialist.

    Few tabloids will make it, the Mail for sure, but who else? Maybe the Sun. Even then I'm not certain. That's it

    All the others will die or become online ghosts of themselves

    But this means the survivors will be able to mop up the remaining gravy, and compete for bigger business. If we end up with five or six varied and thriving news outlets that's good for our democracy
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    edited May 2021
    Leon said:

    FPT

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    I'm starting to wonder if Boris is a bit of a political genius. He seems to make the right policy decision, but by instinct. Or clever delegation?

    He makes mistakes that would kill others, yet emerges unscathed. He knows what will please his new voters, without alienating the old voters

    I can see why the likes of @kinabalu cordially detest him. He is quite an enemy to face

    Look at the number of crying wolf incidents that have led to... huge success for him

    Proroguing Parliament
    “People of colour” (people of talent)
    The ‘violent’ row with his girlfriend reported to The Guardian by Neighbours
    The holiday in Mustique
    No Deal Brexit being the plan
    The wallpaper
    “Piles of bodies”

    I feel his success is so unpalatable to his haters that several people have left this site rather than admit what you say. To be fair to @kinabalu, he has stayed and does admit it

    All these have supposedly been his downfall. The latest strategy is to say they’re all going to add up eventually, just you wait.

    He turns normal men into David Brent irked by Neil
    It goes on before all that:

    Conspiring with Darius Guppy to get a journalist beaten to a pulp.
    Falsely attributing incorrect historical statements to his godfather.
    Lying to Michael Howard about an affair.
    Jennifer Arcuri.

    The man really is a political phenomenon. We may never see his like again. Just enjoy it while it lasts!
    "It is just flipping unbelievable. He is a mixture of Harry Houdini and a greased piglet. He is barely human in his elusiveness. Nailing Blair Boris is like trying to pin jelly to a wall!"
    At the moment Boris is Blair, but without Iraq - which is pretty damn important

    It is quite tough for his opponents
    Some truth in that, voteshares in 2019 Tories 43% Labour 32%, voteshares in 2001 Labour 41% Tories 31%.

    Starmer is basically the Labour IDS at present.

    So on that trajectory they need a Howard to make a few gains in 2024, then aim to find a leader to get them back to power in a hung parliament in 2029 and finally get a majority again in 2034

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    edited May 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    FPT

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    I'm starting to wonder if Boris is a bit of a political genius. He seems to make the right policy decision, but by instinct. Or clever delegation?

    He makes mistakes that would kill others, yet emerges unscathed. He knows what will please his new voters, without alienating the old voters

    I can see why the likes of @kinabalu cordially detest him. He is quite an enemy to face

    Look at the number of crying wolf incidents that have led to... huge success for him

    Proroguing Parliament
    “People of colour” (people of talent)
    The ‘violent’ row with his girlfriend reported to The Guardian by Neighbours
    The holiday in Mustique
    No Deal Brexit being the plan
    The wallpaper
    “Piles of bodies”

    I feel his success is so unpalatable to his haters that several people have left this site rather than admit what you say. To be fair to @kinabalu, he has stayed and does admit it

    All these have supposedly been his downfall. The latest strategy is to say they’re all going to add up eventually, just you wait.

    He turns normal men into David Brent irked by Neil
    It goes on before all that:

    Conspiring with Darius Guppy to get a journalist beaten to a pulp.
    Falsely attributing incorrect historical statements to his godfather.
    Lying to Michael Howard about an affair.
    Jennifer Arcuri.

    The man really is a political phenomenon. We may never see his like again. Just enjoy it while it lasts!
    "It is just flipping unbelievable. He is a mixture of Harry Houdini and a greased piglet. He is barely human in his elusiveness. Nailing Blair Boris is like trying to pin jelly to a wall!"
    At the moment Boris is Blair, but without Iraq - which is pretty damn important

    It is quite tough for his opponents
    Only for a while according to hyufd he will invade scotland with tanks
    No need, Sturgeon has no SNP majority and has said she will not declare UDI or even hold a wildcat referendum.

    So Boris only needs to say no indyref2
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Sorry i meant UK media, not worldwide. I don't think the FT does, I am sure I read even the Times Insight team had been scaled back. That isn't to say a journalist doesn't get put on a story long term emg FT / Wirecard, but fairly sure the Times is unique in having a bunch of journalists who are told your only job is to search out big detailed conplex stories that require a lot of leg work.
    The market is in flux - but it will rationalise. I can see there being one big liberal "paper" - surely the Guardian in the UK, one big conservative paper, the Telegraph? With the Times doing fine in the middle and the FT as liberal-specialist.

    Few tabloids will make it, the Mail for sure, but who else? Maybe the Sun. Even then I'm not certain. That's it

    All the others will die or become online ghosts of themselves

    But this means the survivors will be able to mop up the remaining gravy, and compete for bigger business. If we end up with five or six varied and thriving news outlets that's good for our democracy
    Absolutely not convinced by that, I haven't bought a paper in years and used to get one every day. Most people I know were even less likely to buy one themselves they would just see what was left on a table in the works canteen
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    CatMan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Private Eye doesn't have much of an online presence, but it sells shit loads.

    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/private-eye-hits-highest-circulation-in-55-year-history-which-is-quite-something-given-that-print-is-meant-to-be-dead/

    This is from 2016, when it was selling around 280,000 every fortnight.

    It's around 240,000 now, which is still massive for the UK.
    It is quite reasonably priced at £36 for 26 editions. So same price as one just one midweek days Independent or Telegraph.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited May 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Sorry i meant UK media, not worldwide. I don't think the FT does, I am sure I read even the Times Insight team had been scaled back. That isn't to say a journalist doesn't get put on a story long term emg FT / Wirecard, but fairly sure the Times is unique in having a bunch of journalists who are told your only job is to search out big detailed conplex stories that require a lot of leg work.
    Sadly there is news the public is interested in and news the public should be interested in. However the first gets more money in whereas the latter probably costs money. More people probably read about janet jacksons nip slip for example than ever read articles about mp expenses
    Actually what things like Podcast and YouTube have shown is there is a surprising appetite for more in depth coverage of issues, and don't just mean Joe Rogan talking about weed and aliens.

    Tifo Football as 1m subs on Youtube were they specalise in talking about detailed tactical approaches of teams.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    I don't understand how Zerohedge hasn't been sued to bankruptcy by now. It's literally an outlet for short sellers to push down prices.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    isam said:

    Re the discussion on diet, mine is quite woke. I’m a vegetarian like Sir Keir - for dinner tonight I had the kids goldfish!

    I have always been rather icky about dairy products and can’t stand milk, cream or cheese. The thought of where it comes from/it being slightly off is horrific. Oat/Almond milk on cereal/smoothies is nice. Dash of real milk in tea, no more

    We will surely eat less meat in future, everyone’s at it now. ‘Beyond Meat’ burgers are as tasty as the real thing without the guilt when you see a cow grazing. I feel quite guilty giving my toddler meat dishes, particularly mammals which I don’t really eat. Although I eat chicken, turkey and fish, and sometimes other meat maybe once every month or so, I don’t like it when people go on about how lovely/tender their meat dish was - feel like it should be a kind of dirty secret.


    I am an omnivore, there really is not much that I will not eat if it is of decent origin, but I do eat very little ultra processed food or meat, and lots of coloured fruit and veg. Hugh Fearnley-Whittingsall did a very good recent book on the subject "Eat better Forever".

    I see too much slow "suicide by food" in my day job. It doesn't look very enjoyable.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
    Sunil, please make it better. It is really fritzing my pitz. The worst May in history, and it happens to be THIS year?

    FFS

    I just want to walk out into warm sun. Once?
    We've had quite a bit of warm sun here in Scotland over the last week, as well as showers (though grey and wet most of today). What was that you were saying about shite Scottish weather and the superiority of the London climate?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Sorry i meant UK media, not worldwide. I don't think the FT does, I am sure I read even the Times Insight team had been scaled back. That isn't to say a journalist doesn't get put on a story long term emg FT / Wirecard, but fairly sure the Times is unique in having a bunch of journalists who are told your only job is to search out big detailed conplex stories that require a lot of leg work.
    The market is in flux - but it will rationalise. I can see there being one big liberal "paper" - surely the Guardian in the UK, one big conservative paper, the Telegraph? With the Times doing fine in the middle and the FT as liberal-specialist.

    Few tabloids will make it, the Mail for sure, but who else? Maybe the Sun. Even then I'm not certain. That's it

    All the others will die or become online ghosts of themselves

    But this means the survivors will be able to mop up the remaining gravy, and compete for bigger business. If we end up with five or six varied and thriving news outlets that's good for our democracy
    https://www.theharper.co.uk/

    Or

    https://www.booking.com/hotel/gb/mistley-thorn.en-gb.html
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    FPT

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    I'm starting to wonder if Boris is a bit of a political genius. He seems to make the right policy decision, but by instinct. Or clever delegation?

    He makes mistakes that would kill others, yet emerges unscathed. He knows what will please his new voters, without alienating the old voters

    I can see why the likes of @kinabalu cordially detest him. He is quite an enemy to face

    Look at the number of crying wolf incidents that have led to... huge success for him

    Proroguing Parliament
    “People of colour” (people of talent)
    The ‘violent’ row with his girlfriend reported to The Guardian by Neighbours
    The holiday in Mustique
    No Deal Brexit being the plan
    The wallpaper
    “Piles of bodies”

    I feel his success is so unpalatable to his haters that several people have left this site rather than admit what you say. To be fair to @kinabalu, he has stayed and does admit it

    All these have supposedly been his downfall. The latest strategy is to say they’re all going to add up eventually, just you wait.

    He turns normal men into David Brent irked by Neil
    It goes on before all that:

    Conspiring with Darius Guppy to get a journalist beaten to a pulp.
    Falsely attributing incorrect historical statements to his godfather.
    Lying to Michael Howard about an affair.
    Jennifer Arcuri.

    The man really is a political phenomenon. We may never see his like again. Just enjoy it while it lasts!
    "It is just flipping unbelievable. He is a mixture of Harry Houdini and a greased piglet. He is barely human in his elusiveness. Nailing Blair Boris is like trying to pin jelly to a wall!"
    At the moment Boris is Blair, but without Iraq - which is pretty damn important

    It is quite tough for his opponents
    Only for a while according to hyufd he will invade scotland with tanks
    No need, Sturgeon has no majority and has said she will not declare UDI or even hold a wildcat referendum.

    So Boris only needs to say no indyref2
    SNP + Greens = 72 seats.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    India’s COVID Crisis Is Making Oxygen Scammers Rich

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6IjFdGZHmI
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,549
    edited May 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
    Sunil, please make it better. It is really fritzing my pitz. The worst May in history, and it happens to be THIS year?

    FFS

    I just want to walk out into warm sun. Once?

    Jimmy Davis - You are My Sunshine
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckKeQNCyPBU

    FYI, Jimmy Davis served two terms as Governor of Louisiana, from 1944-48 and 1960-64 (when governors were limited to a single consecutive term. He ran again, in 1971 but lost in the Democratic primary.

    Among other achievements, the "Singing Governor" spearheaded construction of the Sunshine Bridge over the Mississippi, as well as the current Governor's Mansion. When I was attending LSU he lived next door to the mansion.

    At his death in 2000, Jimmy Davis was America's oldest living ex-governor, age 101. This record was not broken until the death of former Washington State Gov. Al Rosellini (yours truly attended his funeral) in 2011. Who was (briefly) older than Davis - by one day.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmie_Davis
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I think BaFin was completely taken in by Wirecard. They bought into this narrative that shortsellers were conspiracy (and paying off) journalists to write lies.

    The reality, of course, is that Wirecard was a complete fraud.

    (And it is one of those strange ironies that Wirecard was one of those few stocks that Zero Hedge used to pump up, rather than dump down on. Now that's a relationship that should be probed.)

    To be fair they did probably make the assumption german financial regulators were competent
    To those who know the history of Douche Bank - the real question is about the honesty of the German regulators.
    Seems that the myth of the "honest German regulator" dies as hard as that of the "good Wehrmacht".
    That is pretty unfair comparison - the Wehrmacht actually did their day job, in between the genocidal stuff.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    isam said:

    Re the discussion on diet, mine is quite woke. I’m a vegetarian like Sir Keir - for dinner tonight I had the kids goldfish!

    I have always been rather icky about dairy products and can’t stand milk, cream or cheese. The thought of where it comes from/it being slightly off is horrific. Oat/Almond milk on cereal/smoothies is nice. Dash of real milk in tea, no more

    We will surely eat less meat in future, everyone’s at it now. ‘Beyond Meat’ burgers are as tasty as the real thing without the guilt when you see a cow grazing. I feel quite guilty giving my toddler meat dishes, particularly mammals which I don’t really eat. Although I eat chicken, turkey and fish, and sometimes other meat maybe once every month or so, I don’t like it when people go on about how lovely/tender their meat dish was - feel like it should be a kind of dirty secret.


    I will have been a veggie for 30 years later this year :)
    No meat had entered your mouth. And your meat hasn't...

    ...you can fill in the rest!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
    Sunil, please make it better. It is really fritzing my pitz. The worst May in history, and it happens to be THIS year?

    FFS

    I just want to walk out into warm sun. Once?
    We've had quite a bit of warm sun here in Scotland over the last week, as well as showers (though grey and wet most of today). What was that you were saying about shite Scottish weather and the superiority of the London climate?
    All too true. The southeast has been the worst for sun and warmth this year. Nagging north easterlies: UGH

    What's worse, the pattern seems set in stone. The promised warm-up STILL recedes

    It is just as bad across NW Europe

    Amsterdam:


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2759794

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited May 2021
    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    It is May 21.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    Adam Gemili has vowed to take a knee in support of Black Lives Matter if he wins an Olympic medal in Tokyo – and warned the IOC that “all hell will break loose” if it tries to ban athletes from protesting on the podium.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/20/adam-gemili-warns-ioc-tokyo-olympics-taking-knee-ban
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Foxy said:


    I am an omnivore, there really is not much that I will not eat if it is of decent origin, but I do eat very little ultra processed food or meat, and lots of coloured fruit and veg. Hugh Fearnley-Whittingsall did a very good recent book on the subject "Eat better Forever".

    I see too much slow "suicide by food" in my day job. It doesn't look very enjoyable.

    Fearnley-Whittingstall was on the QT panel in 1999 to which I referred earlier.

    He tried to argue the virtues of organic food and organic food production and was bulldozed by Boris Johnson who rambled on about British beef and how unattractive organic food was in the supermarket and the audience lapped it up.

    As a wise man once opined "that was then and this is now".

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Sorry i meant UK media, not worldwide. I don't think the FT does, I am sure I read even the Times Insight team had been scaled back. That isn't to say a journalist doesn't get put on a story long term emg FT / Wirecard, but fairly sure the Times is unique in having a bunch of journalists who are told your only job is to search out big detailed conplex stories that require a lot of leg work.
    The market is in flux - but it will rationalise. I can see there being one big liberal "paper" - surely the Guardian in the UK, one big conservative paper, the Telegraph? With the Times doing fine in the middle and the FT as liberal-specialist.

    Few tabloids will make it, the Mail for sure, but who else? Maybe the Sun. Even then I'm not certain. That's it

    All the others will die or become online ghosts of themselves

    But this means the survivors will be able to mop up the remaining gravy, and compete for bigger business. If we end up with five or six varied and thriving news outlets that's good for our democracy
    Absolutely not convinced by that, I haven't bought a paper in years and used to get one every day. Most people I know were even less likely to buy one themselves they would just see what was left on a table in the works canteen
    It will all go online, obvs, but the success of the NYT (and the lesser but still notable success of the Times, FT, Economist) shows that online paywalls work

    So you're right and wrong. You're right that no one will buy an actual inky "newspaper". Ridiculous. I haven't bought one in five years at least. Why? It's a waste of trees

    But you're wrong in saying they will die. The best brands will survive as "the papers" become online websites with consistently angled journalism with a certain slant and persona. This works. It has been proved
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    isam said:

    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
    It's no coincidence Johnson, Salmond and Kennedy, all of whom had done plenty of television work beyond politics, all prospered to an extent in the political theatre.

    You could argue all three are and were deeply flawed individuals but as entertainers, each was in their own way very successful.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    isam said:
    Front pages of the papers are awful for the BBC.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
    Sunil, please make it better. It is really fritzing my pitz. The worst May in history, and it happens to be THIS year?

    FFS

    I just want to walk out into warm sun. Once?
    This year's May is on track to be the coldest since 1996. Will it also be in the final year of a long period of Tory hegemony...?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
    It's no coincidence Johnson, Salmond and Kennedy, all of whom had done plenty of television work beyond politics, all prospered to an extent in the political theatre.

    You could argue all three are and were deeply flawed individuals but as entertainers, each was in their own way very successful.
    Yes, I’ve argued a long time, not because it’s my view but my observation of the way of the world, that to succeed in modern politics it is more important than ever to be a kind of celebrity, and Boris is probably the biggest celebrity UK politician of all time
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    stodge said:

    Foxy said:


    I am an omnivore, there really is not much that I will not eat if it is of decent origin, but I do eat very little ultra processed food or meat, and lots of coloured fruit and veg. Hugh Fearnley-Whittingsall did a very good recent book on the subject "Eat better Forever".

    I see too much slow "suicide by food" in my day job. It doesn't look very enjoyable.

    Fearnley-Whittingstall was on the QT panel in 1999 to which I referred earlier.

    He tried to argue the virtues of organic food and organic food production and was bulldozed by Boris Johnson who rambled on about British beef and how unattractive organic food was in the supermarket and the audience lapped it up.

    As a wise man once opined "that was then and this is now".

    I am not obsessive about "organic", more interested in how food is produced. I support Compassion in World Farming, and also traditional producers rather than industrial factory farming. Lamb is pretty much all outdoor bred on grassland, often where little else can be produced, so this puts it at major advantage compared with chicken in terms of welfare, for example.

    Smaller quantities of well produced meat, and loads of veg is not an expensive diet. The key to me is labelling. I won't be buying Australian or American hormone beef from feedlots for example.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
    Sunil, please make it better. It is really fritzing my pitz. The worst May in history, and it happens to be THIS year?

    FFS

    I just want to walk out into warm sun. Once?
    This year's May is on track to be the coldest since 1996. Will it also be in the final year of a long period of Tory hegemony...?
    This year's May? You mean there are multiple Theresas?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    Not that long ago David Cameron was supposed to be as untouchable as Boris. Oh dear.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
    Sunil, please make it better. It is really fritzing my pitz. The worst May in history, and it happens to be THIS year?

    FFS

    I just want to walk out into warm sun. Once?
    No, the worst May in history was Theresa May.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
    It's no coincidence Johnson, Salmond and Kennedy, all of whom had done plenty of television work beyond politics, all prospered to an extent in the political theatre.

    You could argue all three are and were deeply flawed individuals but as entertainers, each was in their own way very successful.
    Yes, I’ve argued a long time, not because it’s my view but my observation of the way of the world, that to succeed in modern politics it is more important than ever to be a kind of celebrity, and Boris is probably the biggest celebrity UK politician of all time
    Yes, and it worked for Trump in the USA, and Berlesconi in Italy too. Until it didn't of course. I expect Johnson to keep power for a while yet, but future generations will look back wondering "What were they thinking?"

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
    Sunil, please make it better. It is really fritzing my pitz. The worst May in history, and it happens to be THIS year?

    FFS

    I just want to walk out into warm sun. Once?
    This year's May is on track to be the coldest since 1996. Will it also be in the final year of a long period of Tory hegemony...?
    There are ways and means of determining "coldest". CET, daily maxima, daily minimums, etc?

    I understand this might be the first Spring ever in London where the highest temperature is recorded in March. Or so I read.

    Whatever the data this *feels* like the worst May I can remember, but given that I was completely blitzed from the age of 18 until the mid 90s, and can therefore remember little, your claim of "1996" could be right
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    CatMan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Private Eye doesn't have much of an online presence, but it sells shit loads.

    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/private-eye-hits-highest-circulation-in-55-year-history-which-is-quite-something-given-that-print-is-meant-to-be-dead/

    This is from 2016, when it was selling around 280,000 every fortnight.

    It's around 240,000 now, which is still massive for the UK.
    Private Eye is the only newspaper that's ever paid me, which counts in its favour.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    stodge said:

    Foxy said:


    I am an omnivore, there really is not much that I will not eat if it is of decent origin, but I do eat very little ultra processed food or meat, and lots of coloured fruit and veg. Hugh Fearnley-Whittingsall did a very good recent book on the subject "Eat better Forever".

    I see too much slow "suicide by food" in my day job. It doesn't look very enjoyable.

    Fearnley-Whittingstall was on the QT panel in 1999 to which I referred earlier.

    He tried to argue the virtues of organic food and organic food production and was bulldozed by Boris Johnson who rambled on about British beef and how unattractive organic food was in the supermarket and the audience lapped it up.

    As a wise man once opined "that was then and this is now".

    I suspect that johnson gets fed on organic when at home with his gold wallpaper. Carries choice not his, I think Johnson isn't very discriminating in what he eats. His lifestyle is that of a glutton rather than a gourmand.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
    It's no coincidence Johnson, Salmond and Kennedy, all of whom had done plenty of television work beyond politics, all prospered to an extent in the political theatre.

    You could argue all three are and were deeply flawed individuals but as entertainers, each was in their own way very successful.
    Yes, I’ve argued a long time, not because it’s my view but my observation of the way of the world, that to succeed in modern politics it is more important than ever to be a kind of celebrity, and Boris is probably the biggest celebrity UK politician of all time
    Yes, and it worked for Trump in the USA, and Berlesconi in Italy too. Until it didn't of course. I expect Johnson to keep power for a while yet, but future generations will look back wondering "What were they thinking?"

    Boris is halfway through the Icarus trajectory enjoyed by all British politicians.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    edited May 2021
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
    It's no coincidence Johnson, Salmond and Kennedy, all of whom had done plenty of television work beyond politics, all prospered to an extent in the political theatre.

    You could argue all three are and were deeply flawed individuals but as entertainers, each was in their own way very successful.
    Yes, I’ve argued a long time, not because it’s my view but my observation of the way of the world, that to succeed in modern politics it is more important than ever to be a kind of celebrity, and Boris is probably the biggest celebrity UK politician of all time
    Yes, and it worked for Trump in the USA, and Berlesconi in Italy too. Until it didn't of course. I expect Johnson to keep power for a while yet, but future generations will look back wondering "What were they thinking?"

    No, they won't. eg The vaccine roll out is a global success, and it is down to Boris, choosing the right woman: Kate Bingham

    This has always been a major Boris strength, he knows how to delegate. He can spot talent. He did it as mayor

    This by itself makes him much more than Berlusconi, even as you want him to be an empty Berlusconi

    Another of his talents is getting his frantic enemies to under-estimate him. "Clown." "Buffoon". "Berlusconi". Well done for continuing the trend with such fidelity
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    rcs1000 said:

    CatMan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The bigger question, in the internet age where so much is free and monetising news is so difficult is where does the next generation of journalists paid to work on a story for months or even years come from? It is a serious challenge in a world that needs power looked at ever more closely as technology increases the capacity to control.

    It is crowd sourced frankly the days of journalists working for years on a story were long gone before the internet. Instead ordinary people like you and I will raise issues and mostly get ignored
    I believe only the Times has a dedicated team these days whose only job is to work long term stories.
    Too pessimistic. The New York Times is now making a large profit and has a huge and growing subscriber base


    "New York Times Hits 7 Million Subscribers as Digital Revenue Rises
    For the first time, the publisher brought in more revenue from online readers than from its print subscribers."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/business/media/new-york-times-q3-2020-earnings-nyt.html

    The Times, FT, Economist, and others have shown that paywalls work in the UK

    There is a substantial demand for quality written analysis, journalistic scoops, and articulate opinion. Perhaps a big demand. There will be fewer "newspapers" in the world, but the ones that survive - will thrive
    I think this is the model, like tye athletic for sport. But my point still stands that only the Times have a dedicated long term investigation team.
    The NY Times does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the FT did as well.

    Indeed, I'd argue that all those firms have demonstrated that you can build a profitable, hard hitting journalistic organisation in this day and age.
    Private Eye doesn't have much of an online presence, but it sells shit loads.

    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/private-eye-hits-highest-circulation-in-55-year-history-which-is-quite-something-given-that-print-is-meant-to-be-dead/

    This is from 2016, when it was selling around 280,000 every fortnight.

    It's around 240,000 now, which is still massive for the UK.
    Private Eye is the only newspaper that's ever paid me, which counts in its favour.
    What did they say about you?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    Devi is being borderline sensible: urging people to go out to restaurants and get the economy moving.

    Has she left the zerovids?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Devi is being borderline sensible: urging people to go out to restaurants and get the economy moving.

    Has she left the zerovids?

    Doing my bit ....
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited May 2021
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
    It's no coincidence Johnson, Salmond and Kennedy, all of whom had done plenty of television work beyond politics, all prospered to an extent in the political theatre.

    You could argue all three are and were deeply flawed individuals but as entertainers, each was in their own way very successful.
    Yes, I’ve argued a long time, not because it’s my view but my observation of the way of the world, that to succeed in modern politics it is more important than ever to be a kind of celebrity, and Boris is probably the biggest celebrity UK politician of all time
    Yes, and it worked for Trump in the USA, and Berlesconi in Italy too. Until it didn't of course. I expect Johnson to keep power for a while yet, but future generations will look back wondering "What were they thinking?"

    They really won't, unless you think the future leadership of the human race will - in a departure from all precedent - be one endless parade of dull, pious technocrats.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
    Sunil, please make it better. It is really fritzing my pitz. The worst May in history, and it happens to be THIS year?

    FFS

    I just want to walk out into warm sun. Once?
    This year's May is on track to be the coldest since 1996. Will it also be in the final year of a long period of Tory hegemony...?
    There are ways and means of determining "coldest". CET, daily maxima, daily minimums, etc?

    I understand this might be the first Spring ever in London where the highest temperature is recorded in March. Or so I read.

    Whatever the data this *feels* like the worst May I can remember, but given that I was completely blitzed from the age of 18 until the mid 90s, and can therefore remember little, your claim of "1996" could be right
    There was an interlude at the end of March when a new all-time high record was set, so it's not all that surprising for that day to be the warmest in spring when April and May have been below average.

    This is one of the problems with people's perceptions of the weather/climate. The only all-time record broken so far is a warm one, and yet the season is perceived as being so extraordinarily cold that to mention that record feels a bit daft.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578

    Devi is being borderline sensible: urging people to go out to restaurants and get the economy moving.

    Has she left the zerovids?

    I wouldn't mind giving Devi a bit of my viral load!

    EDIT: Ooops! Wrong forum! :blush:
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
    It's no coincidence Johnson, Salmond and Kennedy, all of whom had done plenty of television work beyond politics, all prospered to an extent in the political theatre.

    You could argue all three are and were deeply flawed individuals but as entertainers, each was in their own way very successful.
    Yes, I’ve argued a long time, not because it’s my view but my observation of the way of the world, that to succeed in modern politics it is more important than ever to be a kind of celebrity, and Boris is probably the biggest celebrity UK politician of all time
    Yes, and it worked for Trump in the USA, and Berlesconi in Italy too. Until it didn't of course. I expect Johnson to keep power for a while yet, but future generations will look back wondering "What were they thinking?"

    Boris is halfway through the Icarus trajectory enjoyed by all British politicians.
    To be pedantic Icarus didn't really have a trajectory, more a reverse hockey stick.
    Which may of course also be an accurate metaphor for BJ's future.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    Jonathan said:

    Not that long ago David Cameron was supposed to be as untouchable as Boris. Oh dear.

    He was?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The November storm outside my flat is so intense it is tearing down wooden fencing

    Except, it it not November, it is May 20

    I don't know why the weather is so SHITE, but I'm sure it must be YOUR fault!
    Sunil, please make it better. It is really fritzing my pitz. The worst May in history, and it happens to be THIS year?

    FFS

    I just want to walk out into warm sun. Once?
    This year's May is on track to be the coldest since 1996. Will it also be in the final year of a long period of Tory hegemony...?
    There are ways and means of determining "coldest". CET, daily maxima, daily minimums, etc?

    I understand this might be the first Spring ever in London where the highest temperature is recorded in March. Or so I read.

    Whatever the data this *feels* like the worst May I can remember, but given that I was completely blitzed from the age of 18 until the mid 90s, and can therefore remember little, your claim of "1996" could be right
    There was an interlude at the end of March when a new all-time high record was set, so it's not all that surprising for that day to be the warmest in spring when April and May have been below average.

    This is one of the problems with people's perceptions of the weather/climate. The only all-time record broken so far is a warm one, and yet the season is perceived as being so extraordinarily cold that to mention that record feels a bit daft.
    Of course

    But this is a fucking miserable May in London, especially with lockdown. Eeeesh

    I am sitting in my Camden flat listening to the rain and gales assault the windows. It is like that first day, deep in autumn, when you know winter is swiftly coming down the road. In late October or early November.

    It is May 20!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
    It's no coincidence Johnson, Salmond and Kennedy, all of whom had done plenty of television work beyond politics, all prospered to an extent in the political theatre.

    You could argue all three are and were deeply flawed individuals but as entertainers, each was in their own way very successful.
    Yes, I’ve argued a long time, not because it’s my view but my observation of the way of the world, that to succeed in modern politics it is more important than ever to be a kind of celebrity, and Boris is probably the biggest celebrity UK politician of all time
    Yes, and it worked for Trump in the USA, and Berlesconi in Italy too. Until it didn't of course. I expect Johnson to keep power for a while yet, but future generations will look back wondering "What were they thinking?"

    No, they won't. eg The vaccine roll out is a global success, and it is down to Boris, choosing the right woman: Kate Bingham

    This has always been a major Boris strength, he knows how to delegate. He can spot talent. He did it as mayor

    This by itself makes him much more than Berlusconi, even as you want him to be an empty Berlusconi

    Another of his talents is getting his frantic enemies to under-estimate him. "Clown. "Buffoon". "Berlusconi". Well done for continuing the trend with such fidelity
    Boris has one other talent which people ignore, which is quite a simple but effective one: he can make people smile.

    Don't underestimate the power of smiles, and the power of optimism. So much of politics and news etc can be negative, especially but not just during a pandemic - but also in general too. The "climate emergency", conflicts in the Middle East, economic difficulties, we never talk about things going right.

    Boris's generally unbounded optimism, like Cameron and Blair's before it, can carry people along and help people believe there's better days ahead. It works for policies and not just feelings, while most countries and scientists were pessimistic that vaccines were coming, ours was optimistic that this could be done and did what was needed to get it done.

    Keir stands up every Wednesday and he's just grey and dreary. He tries to nitpick and find small problems in things to have a go with - and nobody cares. Why go along with his dreary crap, when you can go along with the optimism that things are going to get better. The bouncy way now he says "Jabs! Jabs! Jabs! to Jobs! Jobs! Jobs" ... that optimism carries people along and I don't see anyone optimistic in Labour.

    In one way in 2017 during the this was a strength Corbyn had too. Bouncing along to cheering fans at Prenton Park etc, he was optimistic and positive and it was refreshing - even if he was batshit crazy!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    rkrkrk said:

    Well said. Great header although must admit I dont know more than half th e references.

    Another blocker to investigative journalism I suspect is the law. You need to be backed by deep pockets I think to take on big business/the super wealthy. That's not good for our society.

    Just for you:

    - Andrew Norfolk wrote about the Rochdale grooming gangs for the Times.
    - Jennifer Williams has followed up on Operation Augusta , Greater Manchester Police's failure to investigate grooming gangs and cover up of their failures.
    - Nick Wallis has been following the Post Office / Horizon scandal since the start. His book on it is due out later this year.
    - Chris Jeffreys was the slightly eccentric landlord of the girl murdered in Bristol. His life was made a misery by the press and various newspapers were fined for contempt of court. He had nothing to do with her murder.
    - Panorama did two very good undercover films showing appalling abuse of old people in care homes, which led to one being shut down and questions in Parliament.
    - Andrew Hosken of the BBC wrote about how poorly defined targets were one of the reasons for the appalling treatment doled out by Stafford Hospital to its patients. It led to the Francis Report and some criticism of Andy Burnham, Health Secretary at the time this appalling treatment was happening.
    - Amelia Gentleman of the Guardian (married to Jo Johnson, as it happens) has followed the details of what happened to the individuals caught up in the Windrush scandal and has recently written a book on it.
    - Veronica Guerin was an Irish journalist investigating links between the IRA and organised crime and was murdered in 1996, gunned down in her car at traffic lights by 2 men on a motorcycle, as if Dublin had suddenly turned into Palermo.
    - Marie Colvin was murdered by pro-Assad forces a few years ago.
    - Daphne Caruana Galizia was investigating corruption by senior politicians and others in Malta and had a bomb put under her car.
    - Nicholas Tomalin was killed when an Israeli shell hit the car he was travelling in with 2 colleagues as they were reporting on the Yom Kippur attack by Egypt and others in autumn 1973.
    - Wirecard: apparently brilliant German fin tech company turned out to be a massive fraud. The founder, an Austrian, is now hiding in Moscow. For years the German authorities sought to attack the FT instead of following up onconcerns. There is an interesting article in today's FT about one of the Wirecard whistleblowers. German regulators are completely bloody useless.
    - Greensill: followed up by Gabriel Pogrund and others at the Sunday Times.

    Gabriel Pogrund is a friend of my daughter. I was in the same class as Nicholas Tomalin's daughter when her father was killed. Can still remember the shock we all felt at the "news" intruding so brutally.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
    It's no coincidence Johnson, Salmond and Kennedy, all of whom had done plenty of television work beyond politics, all prospered to an extent in the political theatre.

    You could argue all three are and were deeply flawed individuals but as entertainers, each was in their own way very successful.
    Yes, I’ve argued a long time, not because it’s my view but my observation of the way of the world, that to succeed in modern politics it is more important than ever to be a kind of celebrity, and Boris is probably the biggest celebrity UK politician of all time
    Yes, and it worked for Trump in the USA, and Berlesconi in Italy too. Until it didn't of course. I expect Johnson to keep power for a while yet, but future generations will look back wondering "What were they thinking?"

    Boris is halfway through the Icarus trajectory enjoyed by all British politicians.
    How far through is Sir Keir?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,708
    So what is Priti playing at?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    stodge said:

    <

    Very interesting. I wonder what Labour politician of yesteryear could lay a glove on Boris. I can't help thinking of Robin Cook - highly articulate and forensic, sardonic, not an appearance man.

    A good shout - let's not forget politics is theatre so you need someone who would be at home on a stage rather than a courtroom.

    Politics is also about self-confidence and self-belief and that's another asset Johnson brings to the table. Those opposing him have to have those attributes as well.
    It is a stage isn’t it? Boris jibe at Starmer & Rayner last week was very theatrical - I thought it was one of the best bits of parliament I’ve seen, and the best I’ve ever seen of Boris

    I think Jess Phillips would do best of the current Labour Party against him. She’s a better fake than Sir Keir could ever be
    It's no coincidence Johnson, Salmond and Kennedy, all of whom had done plenty of television work beyond politics, all prospered to an extent in the political theatre.

    You could argue all three are and were deeply flawed individuals but as entertainers, each was in their own way very successful.
    Yes, I’ve argued a long time, not because it’s my view but my observation of the way of the world, that to succeed in modern politics it is more important than ever to be a kind of celebrity, and Boris is probably the biggest celebrity UK politician of all time
    Yes, and it worked for Trump in the USA, and Berlesconi in Italy too. Until it didn't of course. I expect Johnson to keep power for a while yet, but future generations will look back wondering "What were they thinking?"

    No, they won't. eg The vaccine roll out is a global success, and it is down to Boris, choosing the right woman: Kate Bingham

    This has always been a major Boris strength, he knows how to delegate. He can spot talent. He did it as mayor

    This by itself makes him much more than Berlusconi, even as you want him to be an empty Berlusconi

    Another of his talents is getting his frantic enemies to under-estimate him. "Clown." "Buffoon". "Berlusconi". Well done for continuing the trend with such fidelity
    I suspect that, when the smoke clears, the numbers are crunched and normality has returned for a few years, history will view Boris's COVID efforts as something of a mixed bag. I doubt we'll be commemorating C-Day and having Boris's face on banknotes for example.
This discussion has been closed.