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May 5th – the 16th anniversary of the last time Labour won a general election – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited May 2021 in General
May 5th – the 16th anniversary of the last time Labour won a general election – politicalbetting.com

But read it all pic.twitter.com/Ly86pVogYa

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,288
    First
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,288
    And only
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Third. Like the Lib Dems in those days.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,288

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    https://twitter.com/Emily_IpsosMORI/status/1389652307059650561?s=19

    The Gold Standard for Scottish polling reports tomorrow.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,596
    "First, and only". Like the Conservatives for the next 100 years?

    Imagine the fanbois' hubris.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,944
    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    Ironically, that happened under President Trump.

    Re the recommended cessation of advanced maths classes for gifted students, am I right in thinking we have never had these sorts of classes in Britain, at least not in state schools?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    No wonder the population of California is falling for the first time ever.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,288
    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    That's not cancelled though is it; it's just not being taught, there.

    There's a long history of challenges to TKAM stretching right back to the early 1960s when it was published. The N word is used 48 times according to Wiki, so I can appreciate that it's a challenging book to teach today.

    But it's not cancelled. You can still buy a copy on Amazon. I'd recommend it, it's a great book.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153
    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    Ironically, that happened under President Trump.

    Re the recommended cessation of advanced maths classes for gifted students, am I right in thinking we have never had these sorts of classes in Britain, at least not in state schools?
    My sister was in a scheme for languages and it allowed her to do an additional language at GCSE. She went to a comp.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,288

    "First, and only". Like the Conservatives for the next 100 years?

    Imagine the fanbois' hubris.

    I was begining to think there was a PB glitch.

    Or maybe that the Wokefinder General had rounded you all up and locked you into the previous thread,
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    We did To Kill A Mockingbird in school for GCSE. Is it just the use of the N word? What other objections are there?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    Yes, not a book that I like. The depictions of the Ewell family as "White Trash" and the villains of the tale are rather disturbing.

    The complicity in not investigating the death of Mr Ewell is as wrong as any other act in the book.

    I have similar disquiet about the ending of "Of Mice and Men" complicity in murder, but justified by the author as justice served, when it is the opposite.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,288

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    That's not cancelled though is it; it's just not being taught, there.

    There's a long history of challenges to TKAM stretching right back to the early 1960s when it was published. The N word is used 48 times according to Wiki, so I can appreciate that it's a challenging book to teach today.

    But it's not cancelled. You can still buy a copy on Amazon. I'd recommend it, it's a great book.
    Every book that’s been challenged by the Wokenazi has ended up cancelled. Including Dr Seuss FFS. Unless the mad tide is turned I see no reason why TKAM should survive.

    Sure, you’ll still be able to buy it on Amazon. Taught widely in US schools? No
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    Potentially, which is some improvement for Labour in that a Conservative leader could not lose against Corbyn even if Starmer does not have Blair's charisma and broad appeal
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    "First, and only". Like the Conservatives for the next 100 years?

    Imagine the fanbois' hubris.

    I was begining to think there was a PB glitch.

    Or maybe that the Wokefinder General had rounded you all up and locked you into the previous thread,
    The Wokefinder General. Bravo. I do wonder how Leon manages his workload in north London. Wokes under every yoke presumably? My sympathies to him.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405

    We did To Kill A Mockingbird in school for GCSE. Is it just the use of the N word? What other objections are there?

    It's not as good as it is made out to be?

    And yes, I have read it. And the sequel.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    That's not cancelled though is it; it's just not being taught, there.

    There's a long history of challenges to TKAM stretching right back to the early 1960s when it was published. The N word is used 48 times according to Wiki, so I can appreciate that it's a challenging book to teach today.

    But it's not cancelled. You can still buy a copy on Amazon. I'd recommend it, it's a great book.
    Every book that’s been challenged by the Wokenazi has ended up cancelled. Including Dr Seuss FFS. Unless the mad tide is turned I see no reason why TKAM should survive.

    Sure, you’ll still be able to buy it on Amazon. Taught widely in US schools? No
    I didn't study TKAM and I did my A Levels in 2010.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,288
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    Yes, not a book that I like. The depictions of the Ewell family as "White Trash" and the villains of the tale are rather disturbing.

    The complicity in not investigating the death of Mr Ewell is as wrong as any other act in the book.

    I have similar disquiet about the ending of "Of Mice and Men" complicity in murder, but justified by the author as justice served, when it is the opposite.
    Funnily enough, when I read it as a set text at school it made a deep and lasting impression on me - for the good, I feel.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Maybe Labour would be doing even worse with a different leader. Starmer is probably the best choice they have at the moment.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    That's not cancelled though is it; it's just not being taught, there.

    There's a long history of challenges to TKAM stretching right back to the early 1960s when it was published. The N word is used 48 times according to Wiki, so I can appreciate that it's a challenging book to teach today.

    But it's not cancelled. You can still buy a copy on Amazon. I'd recommend it, it's a great book.
    Every book that’s been challenged by the Wokenazi has ended up cancelled. Including Dr Seuss FFS. Unless the mad tide is turned I see no reason why TKAM should survive.

    Sure, you’ll still be able to buy it on Amazon. Taught widely in US schools? No
    I didn't study TKAM and I did my A Levels in 2010.
    Any Tom Knox on the syllabus?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    Bear in mind that I am not "Labour". I'm not a member anymore and to be honest I was only ever a member to ensure RLB did not get elected leader.

    I have voted Lib Dems in more elections than I have Labour.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Maybe Labour would be doing even worse with a different leader. Starmer is probably the best choice they have at the moment.

    This is precisely what I think. When somebody else better comes along, they'll have my support. Alas there is nobody. Labour could have chosen RLB...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,926

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    Yes, not a book that I like. The depictions of the Ewell family as "White Trash" and the villains of the tale are rather disturbing.

    The complicity in not investigating the death of Mr Ewell is as wrong as any other act in the book.

    I have similar disquiet about the ending of "Of Mice and Men" complicity in murder, but justified by the author as justice served, when it is the opposite.
    Funnily enough, when I read it as a set text at school it made a deep and lasting impression on me - for the good, I feel.
    Read it at school as well, just before GCSE year.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,288
    Andy_JS said:

    Maybe Labour would be doing even worse with a different leader. Starmer is probably the best choice they have at the moment.

    I fear he must be considered only an interim. Labour need someone with charisma. Sad but true.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,926
    Are @Casino_Royale and @Leon STILL whinging about "Wokeness"?

    JEEZZZ!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Andy_JS said:

    Maybe Labour would be doing even worse with a different leader. Starmer is probably the best choice they have at the moment.

    I fear he must be considered only an interim. Labour need someone with charisma. Sad but true.
    I would hope he has the self awareness to realise that. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to be grooming anyone for the leadership position, so maybe not...

    He needs someone effective in the Shad Chancellor post ffs.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,926

    We did To Kill A Mockingbird in school for GCSE. Is it just the use of the N word? What other objections are there?

    "Burris Johnson" :lol:
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    Andy_JS said:

    Maybe Labour would be doing even worse with a different leader. Starmer is probably the best choice they have at the moment.

    Under Pidcock we would be below 30% in the polls. With RLB not much better.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153
    If Keir gets 260 seats in GE 2024 will LAB let him have another go in 2029???
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,926

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    That's not cancelled though is it; it's just not being taught, there.

    There's a long history of challenges to TKAM stretching right back to the early 1960s when it was published. The N word is used 48 times according to Wiki, so I can appreciate that it's a challenging book to teach today.

    But it's not cancelled. You can still buy a copy on Amazon. I'd recommend it, it's a great book.
    Every book that’s been challenged by the Wokenazi has ended up cancelled. Including Dr Seuss FFS. Unless the mad tide is turned I see no reason why TKAM should survive.

    Sure, you’ll still be able to buy it on Amazon. Taught widely in US schools? No
    I didn't study TKAM and I did my A Levels in 2010.
    Any Tom Knox on the syllabus?
    The Phil Collins Secret.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited May 2021
    That could be a concerning one for Labour, as it was Focaldata that had Labour advancing in the earlier poll. Could there be a late Tory surge going on, I wonder, as in other polls, and if so, why. Could it be a more efficient online campaigning operation, I also wonder.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    Yes, not a book that I like. The depictions of the Ewell family as "White Trash" and the villains of the tale are rather disturbing.

    The complicity in not investigating the death of Mr Ewell is as wrong as any other act in the book.

    I have similar disquiet about the ending of "Of Mice and Men" complicity in murder, but justified by the author as justice served, when it is the opposite.
    Funnily enough, when I read it as a set text at school it made a deep and lasting impression on me - for the good, I feel.
    It is a well written book, with multiple overlapped themes, but some of the conclusions to be drawn are very dark indeed. The impossibility of justice, the power of the middle class respectable folk to selectively enforce laws on the poor, both white and black.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855
    Andy_JS said:

    Maybe Labour would be doing even worse with a different leader. Starmer is probably the best choice they have at the moment.

    That could be. Personally I don't think who the leader is would have made much difference over the last year. The pandemic has blotted out normal politics. It's all been about that, with people and government on broadly the same side. Like a war.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    This is a good opening statement by Stephen Fry in a debate about political correctness (social justice warriors)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W_npyI7Xsw
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265

    That could be a concerning one for Labour, as it was Focaldata that had Labour advancing in the earlier poll. Could there be a late Tory surge going on, I wonder, as in other polls, and if so, why. Could it be a more efficient online campaigning operation, maybe.
    No, this is the poll youre thinking of, from a few days ago.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    If Keir gets 260 seats in GE 2024 will LAB let him have another go in 2029???

    I expects so, as he would probably be PM, though whether such a government could run for 5 years, I doubt.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    No wonder the population of California is falling for the first time ever.
    Not seeing the link here, Andy.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405

    Andy_JS said:

    Maybe Labour would be doing even worse with a different leader. Starmer is probably the best choice they have at the moment.

    I fear he must be considered only an interim. Labour need someone with charisma. Sad but true.
    I would hope he has the self awareness to realise that. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to be grooming anyone for the leadership position, so maybe not...

    He needs someone effective in the Shad Chancellor post ffs.
    Sunil's favourite Rachel Reeves gets plenty of airtime. And Rayner has been doing a decent job as the attack dog of the Shadow Cabinet.

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    Bear in mind that I am not "Labour". I'm not a member anymore and to be honest I was only ever a member to ensure RLB did not get elected leader.

    I have voted Lib Dems in more elections than I have Labour.
    So you made sure Starmer was in position but have no intention of voting for him?

    Are you a centrist are some kind of far left accelerationist? or maybe a Tory?

    I mean lumbering Labour with a completely unelectable leader seems like madness from anything but a left wing accelerationist or right wing pro Tory point of view?!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    That could be a concerning one for Labour, as it was Focaldata that had Labour advancing in the earlier poll. Could there be a late Tory surge going on, I wonder, as in other polls, and if so, why. Could it be a more efficient online campaigning operation, I also wonder.
    Those changes are with 29 Dec 2020.

    CON: 40% (+4)
    LAB: 39% (+1)
    LDEM: 6% (-3)
    GRN: 4% (-3)
    REFUK: 3% (-1)

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,596

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    It all depends on the economy after the job retention scheme closes.

    As a former student of economics I struggle not to see hard times ahead. However, there are plenty of jobs available now the Eastern Europeans have returned home, but do we have the workforce that wants to work hard and for not very much? The government will promote entrepreneurship, but how many barbers shops can any one high street sustain?

    If I am wrong and the economy runs along nicely on cheap borrowing and house price inflation, the Conservative Party are in for as long as they want.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    I don't know about America, but I was able to pass Grade 12 English Lit, in Canada, the top set of 4, without reading an actual book of any kind.
    We merely had a text book which had a double page on each author. A bit of a bio and a couple of extracts.
    Math on the other hand...well that was three separate courses. Calculus, algebra, and arithmetic and statistics.
    I struggled. Even with an A at O Level taken a year early.
    Then there was French. My B at O Level was a long way behind. And my accent was, well...A bit too French.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    That's not cancelled though is it; it's just not being taught, there.

    There's a long history of challenges to TKAM stretching right back to the early 1960s when it was published. The N word is used 48 times according to Wiki, so I can appreciate that it's a challenging book to teach today.

    But it's not cancelled. You can still buy a copy on Amazon. I'd recommend it, it's a great book.
    Indeed, They're not teaching SeanT's books either, but he's not cancelled....
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Damn writing a new topic just as I make a big post on the previous thread!

    Re-post.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/04/internal-polling-suggests-labour-heading-for-defeat-in-hartlepool-byelection?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    ___________________________________
    The mood among some Labour figures in Hartlepool was “pretty desperate”, sources said. Internal data from six weeks of campaigning shows that just over 40% of previous party supporters have said they will vote for the party again this week. The figure is what is known as a “promise rate” – who people say they will vote for – and is based on the canvassing of more than 10,000 people in the town, most of whom have recently voted Labour.

    We haven’t got the small donors that Corbyn brought and haven’t got the big donors that [Tony] Blair had. We’re trapped between the two worlds.”
    -------------------------------

    So the Labour leadership from the right of the party got rid of the people that supplied the bulk of the votes, the money and the canvassing power. They did all this in exchange for some head rubs from the media who will support the Conservatives anyway and some head rubs from loyal Conservative voters who will support the Conservatives anyway.

    Either, they are completely electorally incompetent.

    Or

    They are happy for Labour to fail as long as Labour fails whilst being led by a centrist.

    If anyone who used to say the leader needs to go so the government actually have some opposition for the good of the country they would say so now unless it was just a different kind of cynical excuse for Conservatives to replace Corbyn with an easier opponent.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1389661841949855748

    But...but... Tony said we'd be 20 points ahead, we just had to insult and kick out most of the people who actually vote for us and then everyone who doesn't vote for us would see how amazing Labour are and vote for us.

    Failing to realise the left are some of the only sympathetic idiots stupid enough to give Labour their vote.

    @kle4 NP for earlier, I sometimes like to use f you as a term of endearment so I assumed we were becoming friends, so in that spirit f you too ;)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited May 2021

    That could be a concerning one for Labour, as it was Focaldata that had Labour advancing in the earlier poll. Could there be a late Tory surge going on, I wonder, as in other polls, and if so, why. Could it be a more efficient online campaigning operation, I also wonder.
    Those changes are with 29 Dec 2020.

    CON: 40% (+4)
    LAB: 39% (+1)
    LDEM: 6% (-3)
    GRN: 4% (-3)
    REFUK: 3% (-1)

    If Labour are really within 1% of Con nationwide and Con wins Hartlepool by 15 points and the West Mids by a similar amount, where on earth are those extra Labour votes!?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited May 2021

    This is a good opening statement by Stephen Fry in a debate about political correctness (social justice warriors)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W_npyI7Xsw

    I like Stephen Fry and his humanity but have mixed views on his thoughts on this. He veers dangerously close at times to accepting generic definitions of political correctness without discrimination. There are specific areas of interest, and then there are catch-all terms of abuse from the right ; "woke" is currently going through a similar metamorphosis, from specific issues, to a catch-all perjorative for the progressive, that political correctness did in the 90s.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153
    Foxy said:

    If Keir gets 260 seats in GE 2024 will LAB let him have another go in 2029???

    I expects so, as he would probably be PM, though whether such a government could run for 5 years, I doubt.
    I don't think so with 260 seats. If he is to get to that level he will need to take seats from SNP so no overall gain for the 'anti CON' grouping. Although I expect CON to get fewer seats than 365 current.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405

    That could be a concerning one for Labour, as it was Focaldata that had Labour advancing in the earlier poll. Could there be a late Tory surge going on, I wonder, as in other polls, and if so, why. Could it be a more efficient online campaigning operation, I also wonder.
    Those changes are with 29 Dec 2020.

    CON: 40% (+4)
    LAB: 39% (+1)
    LDEM: 6% (-3)
    GRN: 4% (-3)
    REFUK: 3% (-1)

    So Focaldata have had Fuckalldata for the past 4 months!

    Goodnight...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,288
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    That's not cancelled though is it; it's just not being taught, there.

    There's a long history of challenges to TKAM stretching right back to the early 1960s when it was published. The N word is used 48 times according to Wiki, so I can appreciate that it's a challenging book to teach today.

    But it's not cancelled. You can still buy a copy on Amazon. I'd recommend it, it's a great book.
    Every book that’s been challenged by the Wokenazi has ended up cancelled. Including Dr Seuss FFS. Unless the mad tide is turned I see no reason why TKAM should survive.

    Sure, you’ll still be able to buy it on Amazon. Taught widely in US schools? No
    To lighten the mood a little...

    Our village book club read a cracking crime thriller last month - Way Beyond a Lie by Harry Fisher.

    One of our members recommended it based on a friend of a friend's recommendation, etc... ...but that friend knew the author, so we were able to get him to join the bookclub meeting, which in current times is necessarily by zoom. It was very enlightening having the author with us.

    Anyway, this guy struggled for over 4 years to find an agent (never mind a publisher) before eventually self-publishing on Amazon (for which he gets 29p of the £8.99 price per copy).

    But the thing is the book is actually really good - great plot, good characters, good pace, and would make a great film or TV series.

    Makes you wonder how some of the utter crap that does get published makes it through to print.

    The happy ending is that his next book Six Six Six is being published properly in the autumn.

    (Just to confirm I have no connection to the author - I just liked his book and admired his determination to persevere with it.)
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,243

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    Ironically, that happened under President Trump.

    Re the recommended cessation of advanced maths classes for gifted students, am I right in thinking we have never had these sorts of classes in Britain, at least not in state schools?
    Much as I am willing to blame Trumpsky for just about anything I don't like, from MAGA to a stray hair in my chowder, note that POTUS (whomever she or he may be) has zero control over the decisions of the Burbank, CA school board. Or any other school board in America.

    Same goes for governors. Even legislatures have limited power in this regard.

    In USA, local school boards with a few exceptions are run (sometimes into the ground!) by independently elected officials, in a system that is generally separated from the rest of local government. Almost always on a non-partisan basis though rarely without some political input.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,288

    That could be a concerning one for Labour, as it was Focaldata that had Labour advancing in the earlier poll. Could there be a late Tory surge going on, I wonder, as in other polls, and if so, why. Could it be a more efficient online campaigning operation, I also wonder.
    Those changes are with 29 Dec 2020.

    CON: 40% (+4)
    LAB: 39% (+1)
    LDEM: 6% (-3)
    GRN: 4% (-3)
    REFUK: 3% (-1)

    You asked - FPT - what Critical Race Theory is. Here’s a very good visual example of it. In a US school. The teacher is the Critical Race Theorist - ie on ‘the Left’ - even tho he sounds like some nutter from apartheid South Africa

    https://youtu.be/0bHrrZdFRPk
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855

    We did To Kill A Mockingbird in school for GCSE. Is it just the use of the N word? What other objections are there?

    I've only seen the film. Which I liked.

    Not sure why the outrage about this particular book being dropped by some schools. If you keep the same books as set texts forever you risk atrophy.

    Like, I had a choice between Eyre and Flies - but I'd find it odd if I went back to my old school and found that was still the case now.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    It all depends on the economy after the job retention scheme closes.

    As a former student of economics I struggle not to see hard times ahead. However, there are plenty of jobs available now the Eastern Europeans have returned home, but do we have the workforce that wants to work hard and for not very much? The government will promote entrepreneurship, but how many barbers shops can any one high street sustain?

    If I am wrong and the economy runs along nicely on cheap borrowing and house price inflation, the Conservative Party are in for as long as they want.
    There will certainly be cheap borrowing for a long time, and house price inflation does seem to be out of control at the moment. Not sure the scrapping of stamp duty was a good idea, it just feeds through to house prices...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    dixiedean said:

    I don't know about America, but I was able to pass Grade 12 English Lit, in Canada, the top set of 4, without reading an actual book of any kind.
    We merely had a text book which had a double page on each author. A bit of a bio and a couple of extracts.
    Math on the other hand...well that was three separate courses. Calculus, algebra, and arithmetic and statistics.
    I struggled. Even with an A at O Level taken a year early.
    Then there was French. My B at O Level was a long way behind. And my accent was, well...A bit too French.

    I was at a state school in Georgia for 5 years. English grammar was taught in quite an old fashioned way, and we spent a whole year looking at sentence construction, subjects, direct objects, indirect objects, participle clauses etc at age 11. At 12 we did Shakespeare, studying Romeo and Juliet in its entirety. I think it was far more ambitious than what either of my boys were doing here at the same age.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717
    edited May 2021

    That could be a concerning one for Labour, as it was Focaldata that had Labour advancing in the earlier poll. Could there be a late Tory surge going on, I wonder, as in other polls, and if so, why. Could it be a more efficient online campaigning operation, I also wonder.
    Those changes are with 29 Dec 2020.

    CON: 40% (+4)
    LAB: 39% (+1)
    LDEM: 6% (-3)
    GRN: 4% (-3)
    REFUK: 3% (-1)

    If Labour are really within 1% of Con nationwide and Con wins Hartlepool by 15 points and the West Mids by a similar amount, where on earth are those extra Labour votes!?
    London and the South, if Focaldata is correct we are already closer than 2017 let alone 2019.

    The Tory heartland is now the Midlands it seems, which had the highest Leave vote of any UK region in 2016 and has a high rate of home ownership, the South East had a Leave vote below the English average however.

    Remain voting and rent majority London has swung even further to Labour it seems
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    It all depends on the economy after the job retention scheme closes.

    As a former student of economics I struggle not to see hard times ahead. However, there are plenty of jobs available now the Eastern Europeans have returned home, but do we have the workforce that wants to work hard and for not very much? The government will promote entrepreneurship, but how many barbers shops can any one high street sustain?

    If I am wrong and the economy runs along nicely on cheap borrowing and house price inflation, the Conservative Party are in for as long as they want.
    On barbers. My contact, the retired owner of a shop. It is dead. A lot of folk got into the habit of having their hair cut weekly. Hence the proliferation. They have got out of that habit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    That could be a concerning one for Labour, as it was Focaldata that had Labour advancing in the earlier poll. Could there be a late Tory surge going on, I wonder, as in other polls, and if so, why. Could it be a more efficient online campaigning operation, I also wonder.
    Those changes are with 29 Dec 2020.

    CON: 40% (+4)
    LAB: 39% (+1)
    LDEM: 6% (-3)
    GRN: 4% (-3)
    REFUK: 3% (-1)

    If Labour are really within 1% of Con nationwide and Con wins Hartlepool by 15 points and the West Mids by a similar amount, where on earth are those extra Labour votes!?
    Mostly in seats where they are second but never win and sears where they already have a surplus majority.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,596

    Damn writing a new topic just as I make a big post on the previous thread!

    Re-post.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/04/internal-polling-suggests-labour-heading-for-defeat-in-hartlepool-byelection?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    ___________________________________
    The mood among some Labour figures in Hartlepool was “pretty desperate”, sources said. Internal data from six weeks of campaigning shows that just over 40% of previous party supporters have said they will vote for the party again this week. The figure is what is known as a “promise rate” – who people say they will vote for – and is based on the canvassing of more than 10,000 people in the town, most of whom have recently voted Labour.

    We haven’t got the small donors that Corbyn brought and haven’t got the big donors that [Tony] Blair had. We’re trapped between the two worlds.”
    -------------------------------

    So the Labour leadership from the right of the party got rid of the people that supplied the bulk of the votes, the money and the canvassing power. They did all this in exchange for some head rubs from the media who will support the Conservatives anyway and some head rubs from loyal Conservative voters who will support the Conservatives anyway.

    Either, they are completely electorally incompetent.

    Or

    They are happy for Labour to fail as long as Labour fails whilst being led by a centrist.

    If anyone who used to say the leader needs to go so the government actually have some opposition for the good of the country they would say so now unless it was just a different kind of cynical excuse for Conservatives to replace Corbyn with an easier opponent.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1389661841949855748

    But...but... Tony said we'd be 20 points ahead, we just had to insult and kick out most of the people who actually vote for us and then everyone who doesn't vote for us would see how amazing Labour are and vote for us.

    Failing to realise the left are some of the only sympathetic idiots stupid enough to give Labour their vote.

    @kle4 NP for earlier, I sometimes like to use f you as a term of endearment so I assumed we were becoming friends, so in that spirit f you too ;)

    As with most on the Labour left the 80 seat Tory majority on Corbyn's watch passed you by. You will wake up on Friday and note with interest that Johnson has an 82 seat majority and an 84 seat majority after Batley and Spen, and you will extrapolate from that how well Corbyn actually did in 2019.

    Get rid of Starmer, we need Long-Bailey or Burgon to fly McCluskey's red flag, that'll do the trick. Good luck with that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,288
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    Yes, not a book that I like. The depictions of the Ewell family as "White Trash" and the villains of the tale are rather disturbing.

    The complicity in not investigating the death of Mr Ewell is as wrong as any other act in the book.

    I have similar disquiet about the ending of "Of Mice and Men" complicity in murder, but justified by the author as justice served, when it is the opposite.
    Funnily enough, when I read it as a set text at school it made a deep and lasting impression on me - for the good, I feel.
    It is a well written book, with multiple overlapped themes, but some of the conclusions to be drawn are very dark indeed. The impossibility of justice, the power of the middle class respectable folk to selectively enforce laws on the poor, both white and black.
    Yes fair enough, I didn't spot much of that when I read it for Eng Lit O Level back in th 70s (nor, it appears did the examiners, since I passed).

    It opened my eyes to the corrosive evil of racism, that's enough for me.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    edited May 2021

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    Ironically, that happened under President Trump.

    Re the recommended cessation of advanced maths classes for gifted students, am I right in thinking we have never had these sorts of classes in Britain, at least not in state schools?
    I don't know what you are referring to exactly, but my school did 'A' level maths in lower 6th, and Advanced Maths in the upper 6th. Is that the same thing?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,288
    kinabalu said:

    We did To Kill A Mockingbird in school for GCSE. Is it just the use of the N word? What other objections are there?

    I've only seen the film. Which I liked.

    Not sure why the outrage about this particular book being dropped by some schools. If you keep the same books as set texts forever you risk atrophy.

    Like, I had a choice between Eyre and Flies - but I'd find it odd if I went back to my old school and found that was still the case now.
    You had a choice? Our English teacher chose for us.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited May 2021
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    I don't know about America, but I was able to pass Grade 12 English Lit, in Canada, the top set of 4, without reading an actual book of any kind.
    We merely had a text book which had a double page on each author. A bit of a bio and a couple of extracts.
    Math on the other hand...well that was three separate courses. Calculus, algebra, and arithmetic and statistics.
    I struggled. Even with an A at O Level taken a year early.
    Then there was French. My B at O Level was a long way behind. And my accent was, well...A bit too French.

    I was at a state school in Georgia for 5 years. English grammar was taught in quite an old fashioned way, and we spent a whole year looking at sentence construction, subjects, direct objects, indirect objects, participle clauses etc at age 11. At 12 we did Shakespeare, studying Romeo and Juliet in its entirety. I think it was far more ambitious than what either of my boys were doing here at the same age.

    That's spot on the modern way of teaching grammar here right now. Only much younger than 11.
    Btw. We both left Wigan to graduate High School in N America. How cool is that? We can't be many!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,596

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    Bear in mind that I am not "Labour". I'm not a member anymore and to be honest I was only ever a member to ensure RLB did not get elected leader.

    I have voted Lib Dems in more elections than I have Labour.
    So you made sure Starmer was in position but have no intention of voting for him?

    Are you a centrist are some kind of far left accelerationist? or maybe a Tory?

    I mean lumbering Labour with a completely unelectable leader seems like madness from anything but a left wing accelerationist or right wing pro Tory point of view?!
    If we are not Corbynites, are we not Tories? I thought we were.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    kinabalu said:

    We did To Kill A Mockingbird in school for GCSE. Is it just the use of the N word? What other objections are there?

    I've only seen the film. Which I liked.

    Not sure why the outrage about this particular book being dropped by some schools. If you keep the same books as set texts forever you risk atrophy.

    Like, I had a choice between Eyre and Flies - but I'd find it odd if I went back to my old school and found that was still the case now.
    You had a choice? Our English teacher chose for us.
    I think no book for which there are Cliffs notes should be taught in English lit classes.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,288
    Sturgeon says she WON’T hold a referendum if Boris says No


    Am now confused


    ‘Nicola Sturgeon here confirming that if she doesn't get a Section 30 order from the UK Government, then there will be no wildcat independence referendum.

    It could not be clearer.

    #BBCLeadersDebate’

    https://twitter.com/agentp22/status/1389702832098398209?s=21
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Damn writing a new topic just as I make a big post on the previous thread!

    Re-post.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/04/internal-polling-suggests-labour-heading-for-defeat-in-hartlepool-byelection?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    ___________________________________
    The mood among some Labour figures in Hartlepool was “pretty desperate”, sources said. Internal data from six weeks of campaigning shows that just over 40% of previous party supporters have said they will vote for the party again this week. The figure is what is known as a “promise rate” – who people say they will vote for – and is based on the canvassing of more than 10,000 people in the town, most of whom have recently voted Labour.

    We haven’t got the small donors that Corbyn brought and haven’t got the big donors that [Tony] Blair had. We’re trapped between the two worlds.”
    -------------------------------

    So the Labour leadership from the right of the party got rid of the people that supplied the bulk of the votes, the money and the canvassing power. They did all this in exchange for some head rubs from the media who will support the Conservatives anyway and some head rubs from loyal Conservative voters who will support the Conservatives anyway.

    Either, they are completely electorally incompetent.

    Or

    They are happy for Labour to fail as long as Labour fails whilst being led by a centrist.

    If anyone who used to say the leader needs to go so the government actually have some opposition for the good of the country they would say so now unless it was just a different kind of cynical excuse for Conservatives to replace Corbyn with an easier opponent.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1389661841949855748

    But...but... Tony said we'd be 20 points ahead, we just had to insult and kick out most of the people who actually vote for us and then everyone who doesn't vote for us would see how amazing Labour are and vote for us.

    Failing to realise the left are some of the only sympathetic idiots stupid enough to give Labour their vote.

    @kle4 NP for earlier, I sometimes like to use f you as a term of endearment so I assumed we were becoming friends, so in that spirit f you too ;)

    As with most on the Labour left the 80 seat Tory majority on Corbyn's watch passed you by. You will wake up on Friday and note with interest that Johnson has an 82 seat majority and an 84 seat majority after Batley and Spen, and you will extrapolate from that how well Corbyn actually did in 2019.

    Get rid of Starmer, we need Long-Bailey or Burgon to fly McCluskey's red flag, that'll do the trick. Good luck with that.
    For this to work as mockery you would have to pick people who would do worse than Starmer.

    I might suggest Harold Shipman but even he probably has a better reputation at this point and he is probably more charismatic.

    Yes even as a now long dead person he is far more charismatic than the current leader of the Labour party.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855

    kinabalu said:

    We did To Kill A Mockingbird in school for GCSE. Is it just the use of the N word? What other objections are there?

    I've only seen the film. Which I liked.

    Not sure why the outrage about this particular book being dropped by some schools. If you keep the same books as set texts forever you risk atrophy.

    Like, I had a choice between Eyre and Flies - but I'd find it odd if I went back to my old school and found that was still the case now.
    You had a choice? Our English teacher chose for us.
    I think we did yes. But I did the Bronte and don't actually recall choosing it. So perhaps we didn't.

    LONG time ago. 😞
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,596

    Damn writing a new topic just as I make a big post on the previous thread!

    Re-post.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/04/internal-polling-suggests-labour-heading-for-defeat-in-hartlepool-byelection?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    ___________________________________
    The mood among some Labour figures in Hartlepool was “pretty desperate”, sources said. Internal data from six weeks of campaigning shows that just over 40% of previous party supporters have said they will vote for the party again this week. The figure is what is known as a “promise rate” – who people say they will vote for – and is based on the canvassing of more than 10,000 people in the town, most of whom have recently voted Labour.

    We haven’t got the small donors that Corbyn brought and haven’t got the big donors that [Tony] Blair had. We’re trapped between the two worlds.”
    -------------------------------

    So the Labour leadership from the right of the party got rid of the people that supplied the bulk of the votes, the money and the canvassing power. They did all this in exchange for some head rubs from the media who will support the Conservatives anyway and some head rubs from loyal Conservative voters who will support the Conservatives anyway.

    Either, they are completely electorally incompetent.

    Or

    They are happy for Labour to fail as long as Labour fails whilst being led by a centrist.

    If anyone who used to say the leader needs to go so the government actually have some opposition for the good of the country they would say so now unless it was just a different kind of cynical excuse for Conservatives to replace Corbyn with an easier opponent.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1389661841949855748

    But...but... Tony said we'd be 20 points ahead, we just had to insult and kick out most of the people who actually vote for us and then everyone who doesn't vote for us would see how amazing Labour are and vote for us.

    Failing to realise the left are some of the only sympathetic idiots stupid enough to give Labour their vote.

    @kle4 NP for earlier, I sometimes like to use f you as a term of endearment so I assumed we were becoming friends, so in that spirit f you too ;)

    As with most on the Labour left the 80 seat Tory majority on Corbyn's watch passed you by. You will wake up on Friday and note with interest that Johnson has an 82 seat majority and an 84 seat majority after Batley and Spen, and you will extrapolate from that how well Corbyn actually did in 2019.

    Get rid of Starmer, we need Long-Bailey or Burgon to fly McCluskey's red flag, that'll do the trick. Good luck with that.
    For this to work as mockery you would have to pick people who would do worse than Starmer.

    I might suggest Harold Shipman but even he probably has a better reputation at this point and he is probably more charismatic.

    Yes even as a now long dead person he is far more charismatic than the current leader of the Labour party.
    Uh?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,288
    edited May 2021
    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    We did To Kill A Mockingbird in school for GCSE. Is it just the use of the N word? What other objections are there?

    I've only seen the film. Which I liked.

    Not sure why the outrage about this particular book being dropped by some schools. If you keep the same books as set texts forever you risk atrophy.

    Like, I had a choice between Eyre and Flies - but I'd find it odd if I went back to my old school and found that was still the case now.
    You had a choice? Our English teacher chose for us.
    I think no book for which there are Cliffs notes should be taught in English lit classes.
    How would the examiners know what to look for?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,926

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    Bear in mind that I am not "Labour". I'm not a member anymore and to be honest I was only ever a member to ensure RLB did not get elected leader.

    I have voted Lib Dems in more elections than I have Labour.
    So you made sure Starmer was in position but have no intention of voting for him?

    Are you a centrist are some kind of far left accelerationist? or maybe a Tory?

    I mean lumbering Labour with a completely unelectable leader seems like madness from anything but a left wing accelerationist or right wing pro Tory point of view?!
    Corbyn WASN'T unelectable?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153
    Leon said:

    Sturgeon says she WON’T hold a referendum if Boris says No


    Am now confused


    ‘Nicola Sturgeon here confirming that if she doesn't get a Section 30 order from the UK Government, then there will be no wildcat independence referendum.

    It could not be clearer.

    #BBCLeadersDebate’

    https://twitter.com/agentp22/status/1389702832098398209?s=21

    OK waste of time SNP standing

    Frankly - although I am a unionist - maybe we should get on with the referendum. SNP will lose and the question will disappear. Just like Quebec post 1995.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,243
    Leon said:

    Sturgeon says she WON’T hold a referendum if Boris says No


    Am now confused


    ‘Nicola Sturgeon here confirming that if she doesn't get a Section 30 order from the UK Government, then there will be no wildcat independence referendum.

    It could not be clearer.

    #BBCLeadersDebate’

    https://twitter.com/agentp22/status/1389702832098398209?s=21

    Perhaps HYUFD is secretly advising SNP?

    More seriously, is this Big Fish paying attention to her polling data? And setting up Boris as a semi-permanent boogie man, as long as he is the Prime Minister / Gatekeeper of Union?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    Bear in mind that I am not "Labour". I'm not a member anymore and to be honest I was only ever a member to ensure RLB did not get elected leader.

    I have voted Lib Dems in more elections than I have Labour.
    So you made sure Starmer was in position but have no intention of voting for him?

    Are you a centrist are some kind of far left accelerationist? or maybe a Tory?

    I mean lumbering Labour with a completely unelectable leader seems like madness from anything but a left wing accelerationist or right wing pro Tory point of view?!
    If we are not Corbynites, are we not Tories? I thought we were.
    The people we called Trots called us Tories, isn't that mean....

    I am sorry if your feelings were hurt, as the saying goes, if you ain't big enough to take it then don't dish it out... I mean something like that anyway.

    If the reaction to enthusiastic young people joining Labour is to label them all trots because it suits your political purposes then acting hurt when you get called Tories in response is not only completely hypocritical but beyond the sensitivity levels any grown adult should display.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Leon said:

    Sturgeon says she WON’T hold a referendum if Boris says No


    Am now confused


    ‘Nicola Sturgeon here confirming that if she doesn't get a Section 30 order from the UK Government, then there will be no wildcat independence referendum.

    It could not be clearer.

    #BBCLeadersDebate’

    https://twitter.com/agentp22/status/1389702832098398209?s=21

    Trying to encourage Boris to veto it…
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    We did To Kill A Mockingbird in school for GCSE. Is it just the use of the N word? What other objections are there?

    I've only seen the film. Which I liked.

    Not sure why the outrage about this particular book being dropped by some schools. If you keep the same books as set texts forever you risk atrophy.

    Like, I had a choice between Eyre and Flies - but I'd find it odd if I went back to my old school and found that was still the case now.
    You had a choice? Our English teacher chose for us.
    I think no book for which there are Cliffs notes should be taught in English lit classes.
    How would the examiners know what to look for?
    LOL
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,243

    Leon said:

    Sturgeon says she WON’T hold a referendum if Boris says No


    Am now confused


    ‘Nicola Sturgeon here confirming that if she doesn't get a Section 30 order from the UK Government, then there will be no wildcat independence referendum.

    It could not be clearer.

    #BBCLeadersDebate’

    https://twitter.com/agentp22/status/1389702832098398209?s=21

    OK waste of time SNP standing

    Frankly - although I am a unionist - maybe we should get on with the referendum. SNP will lose and the question will disappear. Just like Quebec post 1995.
    Maybe that's what Sturgeon wishes to avoid.

    Strike when the iron is hot. And don't when it's not.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,855
    But anyway.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited May 2021

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    Bear in mind that I am not "Labour". I'm not a member anymore and to be honest I was only ever a member to ensure RLB did not get elected leader.

    I have voted Lib Dems in more elections than I have Labour.
    So you made sure Starmer was in position but have no intention of voting for him?

    Are you a centrist are some kind of far left accelerationist? or maybe a Tory?

    I mean lumbering Labour with a completely unelectable leader seems like madness from anything but a left wing accelerationist or right wing pro Tory point of view?!
    If we are not Corbynites, are we not Tories? I thought we were.
    The people we called Trots called us Tories, isn't that mean....

    I am sorry if your feelings were hurt, as the saying goes, if you ain't big enough to take it then don't dish it out... I mean something like that anyway.

    If the reaction to enthusiastic young people joining Labour is to label them all trots because it suits your political purposes then acting hurt when you get called Tories in response is not only completely hypocritical but beyond the sensitivity levels any grown adult should display.
    What the Labour Right view as "the Trots" were more the older generation who rejoined under Corbyn, I think. The younger group are indeed much more varied.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Ref discussion on previous thread about poverty in WVA, I looked at the Zillow site for real estate in Princeton WVA, and Welch WVA, both in McDowell County. Houses available for under $50k. Not necessarily anything you'd want to live in ...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    I don't know about America, but I was able to pass Grade 12 English Lit, in Canada, the top set of 4, without reading an actual book of any kind.
    We merely had a text book which had a double page on each author. A bit of a bio and a couple of extracts.
    Math on the other hand...well that was three separate courses. Calculus, algebra, and arithmetic and statistics.
    I struggled. Even with an A at O Level taken a year early.
    Then there was French. My B at O Level was a long way behind. And my accent was, well...A bit too French.

    I was at a state school in Georgia for 5 years. English grammar was taught in quite an old fashioned way, and we spent a whole year looking at sentence construction, subjects, direct objects, indirect objects, participle clauses etc at age 11. At 12 we did Shakespeare, studying Romeo and Juliet in its entirety. I think it was far more ambitious than what either of my boys were doing here at the same age.

    That's spot on the modern way of teaching grammar here right now. Only much younger than 11.
    Btw. We both left Wigan to graduate High School in N America. How cool is that? We can't be many!
    I didn't graduate High School, I came back aged 15 to do O Levels. I was born in Wigan, but am Lestah by adoption. Literal Middle England as well as figuratively, from its gritty ex-con druggies to the hunting set, all life is here.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited May 2021
    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Sturgeon says she WON’T hold a referendum if Boris says No


    Am now confused


    ‘Nicola Sturgeon here confirming that if she doesn't get a Section 30 order from the UK Government, then there will be no wildcat independence referendum.

    It could not be clearer.

    #BBCLeadersDebate’

    https://twitter.com/agentp22/status/1389702832098398209?s=21

    Trying to encourage Boris to veto it…
    Playing 4D chess to encourage voters to vote Alba on the list
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    TimT said:

    Ref discussion on previous thread about poverty in WVA, I looked at the Zillow site for real estate in Princeton WVA, and Welch WVA, both in McDowell County. Houses available for under $50k. Not necessarily anything you'd want to live in ...

    On Rightmove there are terraced houses starting at £5000 in Hartlepool.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,596

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    Bear in mind that I am not "Labour". I'm not a member anymore and to be honest I was only ever a member to ensure RLB did not get elected leader.

    I have voted Lib Dems in more elections than I have Labour.
    So you made sure Starmer was in position but have no intention of voting for him?

    Are you a centrist are some kind of far left accelerationist? or maybe a Tory?

    I mean lumbering Labour with a completely unelectable leader seems like madness from anything but a left wing accelerationist or right wing pro Tory point of view?!
    If we are not Corbynites, are we not Tories? I thought we were.
    The people we called Trots called us Tories, isn't that mean....

    I am sorry if your feelings were hurt, as the saying goes, if you ain't big enough to take it then don't dish it out... I mean something like that anyway.

    If the reaction to enthusiastic young people joining Labour is to label them all trots because it suits your political purposes then acting hurt when you get called Tories in response is not only completely hypocritical but beyond the sensitivity levels any grown adult should display.
    A fair point, except don't you favour the manifesto set out in the Works of Leon Trotsky? I have never promoted Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations narrative.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    Bear in mind that I am not "Labour". I'm not a member anymore and to be honest I was only ever a member to ensure RLB did not get elected leader.

    I have voted Lib Dems in more elections than I have Labour.
    So you made sure Starmer was in position but have no intention of voting for him?

    Are you a centrist are some kind of far left accelerationist? or maybe a Tory?

    I mean lumbering Labour with a completely unelectable leader seems like madness from anything but a left wing accelerationist or right wing pro Tory point of view?!
    You were more than happy with the previous unelectable leader - Starmer isn't great, but much better than the odious Corbyn.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    I don't know about America, but I was able to pass Grade 12 English Lit, in Canada, the top set of 4, without reading an actual book of any kind.
    We merely had a text book which had a double page on each author. A bit of a bio and a couple of extracts.
    Math on the other hand...well that was three separate courses. Calculus, algebra, and arithmetic and statistics.
    I struggled. Even with an A at O Level taken a year early.
    Then there was French. My B at O Level was a long way behind. And my accent was, well...A bit too French.

    I was at a state school in Georgia for 5 years. English grammar was taught in quite an old fashioned way, and we spent a whole year looking at sentence construction, subjects, direct objects, indirect objects, participle clauses etc at age 11. At 12 we did Shakespeare, studying Romeo and Juliet in its entirety. I think it was far more ambitious than what either of my boys were doing here at the same age.

    That's spot on the modern way of teaching grammar here right now. Only much younger than 11.
    Btw. We both left Wigan to graduate High School in N America. How cool is that? We can't be many!
    I didn't graduate High School, I came back aged 15 to do O Levels. I was born in Wigan, but am Lestah by adoption. Literal Middle England as well as figuratively, from its gritty ex-con druggies to the hunting set, all life is here.
    Oh OK. Gosh. Coming the other way to do O Levels must have had it's own unique challenges I should imagine.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,288
    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Sturgeon says she WON’T hold a referendum if Boris says No


    Am now confused


    ‘Nicola Sturgeon here confirming that if she doesn't get a Section 30 order from the UK Government, then there will be no wildcat independence referendum.

    It could not be clearer.

    #BBCLeadersDebate’

    https://twitter.com/agentp22/status/1389702832098398209?s=21

    Trying to encourage Boris to veto it…
    Of course. The question is: what will fundamentalist Nats like Malcolmg do when she meekly agrees. They will go nuts
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    I don't know about America, but I was able to pass Grade 12 English Lit, in Canada, the top set of 4, without reading an actual book of any kind.
    We merely had a text book which had a double page on each author. A bit of a bio and a couple of extracts.
    Math on the other hand...well that was three separate courses. Calculus, algebra, and arithmetic and statistics.
    I struggled. Even with an A at O Level taken a year early.
    Then there was French. My B at O Level was a long way behind. And my accent was, well...A bit too French.

    I was at a state school in Georgia for 5 years. English grammar was taught in quite an old fashioned way, and we spent a whole year looking at sentence construction, subjects, direct objects, indirect objects, participle clauses etc at age 11. At 12 we did Shakespeare, studying Romeo and Juliet in its entirety. I think it was far more ambitious than what either of my boys were doing here at the same age.

    That's spot on the modern way of teaching grammar here right now. Only much younger than 11.
    Btw. We both left Wigan to graduate High School in N America. How cool is that? We can't be many!
    I didn't graduate High School, I came back aged 15 to do O Levels. I was born in Wigan, but am Lestah by adoption. Literal Middle England as well as figuratively, from its gritty ex-con druggies to the hunting set, all life is here.
    Oh OK. Gosh. Coming the other way to do O Levels must have had it's own unique challenges I should imagine.
    It did. I was ahead of the English kids in English and Maths, but way behind on sciences, languages, history and geography, because of how those subjects fitted the Georgia curriculum, but within a few months I caught up.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,410

    Damn writing a new topic just as I make a big post on the previous thread!

    Re-post.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/04/internal-polling-suggests-labour-heading-for-defeat-in-hartlepool-byelection?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    ___________________________________
    The mood among some Labour figures in Hartlepool was “pretty desperate”, sources said. Internal data from six weeks of campaigning shows that just over 40% of previous party supporters have said they will vote for the party again this week. The figure is what is known as a “promise rate” – who people say they will vote for – and is based on the canvassing of more than 10,000 people in the town, most of whom have recently voted Labour.

    We haven’t got the small donors that Corbyn brought and haven’t got the big donors that [Tony] Blair had. We’re trapped between the two worlds.”
    -------------------------------

    So the Labour leadership from the right of the party got rid of the people that supplied the bulk of the votes, the money and the canvassing power. They did all this in exchange for some head rubs from the media who will support the Conservatives anyway and some head rubs from loyal Conservative voters who will support the Conservatives anyway.

    Either, they are completely electorally incompetent.

    Or

    They are happy for Labour to fail as long as Labour fails whilst being led by a centrist.

    If anyone who used to say the leader needs to go so the government actually have some opposition for the good of the country they would say so now unless it was just a different kind of cynical excuse for Conservatives to replace Corbyn with an easier opponent.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1389661841949855748

    But...but... Tony said we'd be 20 points ahead, we just had to insult and kick out most of the people who actually vote for us and then everyone who doesn't vote for us would see how amazing Labour are and vote for us.

    Failing to realise the left are some of the only sympathetic idiots stupid enough to give Labour their vote.

    @kle4 NP for earlier, I sometimes like to use f you as a term of endearment so I assumed we were becoming friends, so in that spirit f you too ;)

    As with most on the Labour left the 80 seat Tory majority on Corbyn's watch passed you by. You will wake up on Friday and note with interest that Johnson has an 82 seat majority and an 84 seat majority after Batley and Spen, and you will extrapolate from that how well Corbyn actually did in 2019.

    Get rid of Starmer, we need Long-Bailey or Burgon to fly McCluskey's red flag, that'll do the trick. Good luck with that.
    For me Starmer's decision to enervate the base of the party is the problem. You can have all the Ambassadors' Circle meetings you want but the rich bastards aren't the ones with clipboards at polling stations.

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited May 2021

    Damn writing a new topic just as I make a big post on the previous thread!

    Re-post.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/04/internal-polling-suggests-labour-heading-for-defeat-in-hartlepool-byelection?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    ___________________________________
    The mood among some Labour figures in Hartlepool was “pretty desperate”, sources said. Internal data from six weeks of campaigning shows that just over 40% of previous party supporters have said they will vote for the party again this week. The figure is what is known as a “promise rate” – who people say they will vote for – and is based on the canvassing of more than 10,000 people in the town, most of whom have recently voted Labour.

    We haven’t got the small donors that Corbyn brought and haven’t got the big donors that [Tony] Blair had. We’re trapped between the two worlds.”
    -------------------------------

    So the Labour leadership from the right of the party got rid of the people that supplied the bulk of the votes, the money and the canvassing power. They did all this in exchange for some head rubs from the media who will support the Conservatives anyway and some head rubs from loyal Conservative voters who will support the Conservatives anyway.

    Either, they are completely electorally incompetent.

    Or

    They are happy for Labour to fail as long as Labour fails whilst being led by a centrist.

    If anyone who used to say the leader needs to go so the government actually have some opposition for the good of the country they would say so now unless it was just a different kind of cynical excuse for Conservatives to replace Corbyn with an easier opponent.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1389661841949855748

    But...but... Tony said we'd be 20 points ahead, we just had to insult and kick out most of the people who actually vote for us and then everyone who doesn't vote for us would see how amazing Labour are and vote for us.

    Failing to realise the left are some of the only sympathetic idiots stupid enough to give Labour their vote.

    @kle4 NP for earlier, I sometimes like to use f you as a term of endearment so I assumed we were becoming friends, so in that spirit f you too ;)

    As with most on the Labour left the 80 seat Tory majority on Corbyn's watch passed you by. You will wake up on Friday and note with interest that Johnson has an 82 seat majority and an 84 seat majority after Batley and Spen, and you will extrapolate from that how well Corbyn actually did in 2019.

    Get rid of Starmer, we need Long-Bailey or Burgon to fly McCluskey's red flag, that'll do the trick. Good luck with that.
    For me Starmer's decision to enervate the base of the party is the problem. You can have all the Ambassadors' Circle meetings you want but the rich bastards aren't the ones with clipboards at polling stations.

    The expulsion of Corbyn was definitely a political mistake, as I predicted at the time, but Starmer is stuck with a very delicate political balancing-act. He urgently needs new advisors to flesh out the Wilsonian idea.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    First

    To Kill A Mockingbird: cancelled

    Sorry


    'To Kill a Mockingbird,' Other Books Banned From California Schools Over Racism Concerns


    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241
    Yes, not a book that I like. The depictions of the Ewell family as "White Trash" and the villains of the tale are rather disturbing.

    The complicity in not investigating the death of Mr Ewell is as wrong as any other act in the book.

    I have similar disquiet about the ending of "Of Mice and Men" complicity in murder, but justified by the author as justice served, when it is the opposite.
    Funnily enough, when I read it as a set text at school it made a deep and lasting impression on me - for the good, I feel.
    It is a well written book, with multiple overlapped themes, but some of the conclusions to be drawn are very dark indeed. The impossibility of justice, the power of the middle class respectable folk to selectively enforce laws on the poor, both white and black.
    Set in the thirties, and written in the late fifties, it’s on the awkward cusp of passing into history.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    Bear in mind that I am not "Labour". I'm not a member anymore and to be honest I was only ever a member to ensure RLB did not get elected leader.

    I have voted Lib Dems in more elections than I have Labour.
    So you made sure Starmer was in position but have no intention of voting for him?

    Are you a centrist are some kind of far left accelerationist? or maybe a Tory?

    I mean lumbering Labour with a completely unelectable leader seems like madness from anything but a left wing accelerationist or right wing pro Tory point of view?!
    If we are not Corbynites, are we not Tories? I thought we were.
    The people we called Trots called us Tories, isn't that mean....

    I am sorry if your feelings were hurt, as the saying goes, if you ain't big enough to take it then don't dish it out... I mean something like that anyway.

    If the reaction to enthusiastic young people joining Labour is to label them all trots because it suits your political purposes then acting hurt when you get called Tories in response is not only completely hypocritical but beyond the sensitivity levels any grown adult should display.
    A fair point, except don't you favour the manifesto set out in the Works of Leon Trotsky? I have never promoted Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations narrative.
    I have never read the works of Leon Trotsky, I actually know far more of Adam Smith's wealth of nations text(s)

    But at a guess nationalised broadband isn't mentioned?

    I haven't ever personally promoted by own manifesto but I liked parts of the Labour one... not sure it really counts as favouring the manifesto set out in the works of Leon Trotsky but maybe those lazy so and so's at head office merely did some copy paste move and there was the Labour manifesto.

    I am extremely interested in Trotsky's approach of first respecting the Brexit referendum and then proposing a second referendum, an interesting couple of chapters no doubt.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886
    Tories about to win WMids and Hartlepool/Teesides by larger amounts than Labour are going to win London by.

    I simply can't reconcile national polling with local polling, unless the Tory SE support has evaporated.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,243
    TimT said:

    Ref discussion on previous thread about poverty in WVA, I looked at the Zillow site for real estate in Princeton WVA, and Welch WVA, both in McDowell County. Houses available for under $50k. Not necessarily anything you'd want to live in ...

    You might be surprised. Princeton is (as I recall) pretty nice (nicer than Welch anyway). Up in the mountains close to the VA line.

    Nearby Bluefield (WV & VA) used to be famous back in the day, for an ice cream parlor that gave out free ice cream when the summertime temperature broke 90F or thereabouts. Was really advertising the fact that, in the dog days of summer, Bluefield had some of the cooler weather in the general area.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Foxy said:

    TimT said:

    Ref discussion on previous thread about poverty in WVA, I looked at the Zillow site for real estate in Princeton WVA, and Welch WVA, both in McDowell County. Houses available for under $50k. Not necessarily anything you'd want to live in ...

    On Rightmove there are terraced houses starting at £5000 in Hartlepool.
    That is the auction reserve price, not the market price. Cheapest seems to be £17,500, which is still bloody cheap
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    I am sure LAB can win a GE in the next 16 years.

    Not under Starmer though. and I can't see under who else in the current PLP.

    I don't think Starmer can *win* an election.
    However a Conservative leader could *lose* an election against Starmer.

    There's a difference I think.
    I don't think you can win in 2024. But LAB can/will win in 2029. No party has won six elections in a row.

    Starmer can get LAB back into a 1992 position particularly if LAB come back in Scotland, which can happen if we have an independence referendum which Sturgeon loses and then people turn against SNP.
    Bear in mind that I am not "Labour". I'm not a member anymore and to be honest I was only ever a member to ensure RLB did not get elected leader.

    I have voted Lib Dems in more elections than I have Labour.
    So you made sure Starmer was in position but have no intention of voting for him?

    Are you a centrist are some kind of far left accelerationist? or maybe a Tory?

    I mean lumbering Labour with a completely unelectable leader seems like madness from anything but a left wing accelerationist or right wing pro Tory point of view?!
    If we are not Corbynites, are we not Tories? I thought we were.
    The people we called Trots called us Tories, isn't that mean....

    I am sorry if your feelings were hurt, as the saying goes, if you ain't big enough to take it then don't dish it out... I mean something like that anyway.

    If the reaction to enthusiastic young people joining Labour is to label them all trots because it suits your political purposes then acting hurt when you get called Tories in response is not only completely hypocritical but beyond the sensitivity levels any grown adult should display.
    What the Labour Right view as "the Trots" were more the older generation who rejoined under Corbyn, I think. The younger group are indeed much more varied.
    TBH they just labelled them all as Trots, the idea was to discredit the person they are voting for. Some of the more 'generous' ones would point out they are actually centrists who are stupid and were tricked by Trots..

    In actual reality Trot numbers (people who actually are Trots) were in the low thousands and the majority of those had no interest in joining Labour whilst Labour was joining by hundreds of thousands of people, even calling 1% of them Trots was incorrect.

    If they had just said I don't like them and think they are bad people that would be perfectly accurate but they didn't, these are the same people who are upset at being called Tories.

    Probably because a fair few that were called Tories actually later joined the Tories or called for a vote for the Tories. The truth hurts.
This discussion has been closed.