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How Bad Is the French Vaccine Roll Out? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,158
edited April 2021 in General
imageHow Bad Is the French Vaccine Roll Out? – politicalbetting.com

France – the country of Pasteur, Marie Curie, Descartes, and Pascal – has a problem with vaccine hesitancy. Their own President, in a bizarre moment of self-harm, decided to declare the Oxford/Astra-Zeneca vaccine as “quasi-ineffective” for older people. Add this to long-standing issues with skepticism about vaccines generally, and you have a recipe for a country that is going to struggle to get jabs into arms – potentially resulting in France never being truly free of Coronavirus.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    First!
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    First!

    Are you first like a French citizen in a queue for vaccination?

    Nobody in front, nobody behind for an hour or so.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Third like the Scottish Tories...
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited April 2021

    Third like the Scottish Tories...

    Very odd to use a plural on your last word.
    Is there really more than one?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,171
    To be honest, I’m not sure I trust any data coming out of France.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    I am first in the way a French kid on the ski slopes waiting for a lift is who turns up 3 minutes after you
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited April 2021
    Thanks so much for this Robert. I love it when real data confounds impressions or memes. I also notice that Germany vaccinated an incredible 1.1million in a single day this week.

    On the subject of media trash, the tories have increased their poll lead in the latest YouGov. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-increase-lead-over-labour-despite-boris-johnson-flat-row-qc9n36pdw

    Will the flat redecoration cut through eventually? I don't know. But I do know that I couldn't give a flying f*ck about it. I don't vote to put a parish priest into No.10. I know he's not a saint. I know he can be deceitful. I don't care. I really really don't give a shit. All I care about is that he does his job and does it well. On vaccinations he is. He can syphon-off £10m for his flipping curtains for all I care providing he gets jabs in our arms.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Way Off Topic - Just ran into this (IMHO) stereotypical English anecdote, from the wiki bio of the late Sir Neil Marten, who at the time was Conservative MP for Banbury:

    A keen raconteur, Marten told a story of a tour he took around the Palace of Westminster with his Banbury constituents. Touring through the maze of corridors they turned a corner and met Lord Hailsham, the Lord Chancellor, wearing the full regalia of his office. Recognising his Parliamentary colleague in the midst of the Banbury constituents, Hailsham boomed, "Neil". Not needing to be told again, the tour party fell to its knees with some haste.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    On Topic - excellent analysis
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    BREAKING: Nearly 40 people have been killed and about 150 injured in a crowd crush at a Jewish religious gathering in northern Israel attended by tens of thousands of people, in one of the country’s worst peacetime disasters.

    Eli Beer, director of an Israeli volunteer ambulance service, Hatzalah, said he was shocked by the size of the crowds at Mount Meron overnight, estimated at around 100,000. “Close to 40 people died as a result of this tragedy,” he told Army Radio on Friday morning. Children were among the dead.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    It comes as a huge relief that the French people are much smarter than their President.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    And here is the prize you are reaching for, France:

    January in the UK: 30,000 Covid deaths

    April in the UK: fewer than 600.

    "About 22 million people in the UK are living in areas that have not reported any Covid-19 deaths in April, according to BBC News analysis.

    By comparison, in a four-week period during January's peak, fewer than 50,000 people lived in such places."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56923757
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Cash for Curtains SOLVED: Carrie simply needs to accept the BBC’s invitation to join this year’s Strictly contest, and the fee will pay for the redecoration.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    How are France conducting their rollout? Is it prioritised by age/vulnerability (like ours) or is it turn up and get jabbed?

    If the former, those statistics are encouraging.

    If the latter, however, they’re not necessarily showing a lack of vaccine hesitancy.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    MAIL: Tory MPs were aghast at the row, which comes when the Government is facing sleaze allegations over lobbying and procurement deals and only a week from a major round of local elections. 'It is a stupid self-inflicted wound that makes us look shifty and out of touch,' one former minister told the Mail.

    'If it had been dealt with straight away then people would have thought nothing of it. But the attempt to cover up what happened looks dodgy.'

    Another veteran Tory said: 'I genuinely think we are in trouble. You can argue that none of the things add up to much on their own. But there is a carelessness and arrogance in No 10 that is very dangerous.'

    There was also resentment in some quarters toward Ms Symonds, with the PM's fiancée dubbed 'Carrie Antoinette' on Tory WhatsApp groups over her allegedly expensive tastes.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    ydoethur said:

    How are France conducting their rollout? Is it prioritised by age/vulnerability (like ours) or is it turn up and get jabbed?

    If the former, those statistics are encouraging.

    If the latter, however, they’re not necessarily showing a lack of vaccine hesitancy.

    Currently, France is offering it to those aged 55 and above - see the table here:

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-19-vaccine-campaign-calendar-and-key-dates-for-2021
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    Very detailed information maps on where Covid deaths have occurred in England and Wales (up to the end of March 2021):

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/causesofdeath/articles/deathsduetocovid19interactivemap/2021-02-25
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,157
    We'll only know the true vaccine hesitancy levels later on in any country's rollout. Right now only Gibraltar and Israel are in this position.
    Gibraltar has administered over 200 doses per 100 est population, which indicates a hesitancy of ~ 0 and a higher than given population
    Israel's numbers I work to about 86% done and lots of children.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    Vaccines now open to the over 40s.

    Getting warmer...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,409
    Good morning everyone.
    Is a collapse of Tory self-confidence on the horizon?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350

    ydoethur said:

    How are France conducting their rollout? Is it prioritised by age/vulnerability (like ours) or is it turn up and get jabbed?

    If the former, those statistics are encouraging.

    If the latter, however, they’re not necessarily showing a lack of vaccine hesitancy.

    Currently, France is offering it to those aged 55 and above - see the table here:

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-19-vaccine-campaign-calendar-and-key-dates-for-2021
    Thanks. So on these figures, at least that group is showing a keenness to take it up.

    Let’s hope that feeds through into the younger age groups and that it doesn’t turn out that’s where all the conspiracy theorists were.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,977
    The mobile number for Boris Johnson that has been available online for the last fifteen years now directs to a message saying the phone is switched off and advises the caller to send a text instead.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1388006815003197441
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    IanB2 said:

    Cash for Curtains SOLVED: Carrie simply needs to accept the BBC’s invitation to join this year’s Strictly contest, and the fee will pay for the redecoration.

    Or I'm a Celebrity....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350

    Good morning everyone.
    Is a collapse of Tory self-confidence on the horizon?

    There were still Tories who thought they could win a general election as late as March 1997.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,722
    ydoethur said:

    Good morning everyone.
    Is a collapse of Tory self-confidence on the horizon?

    There were still Tories who thought they could win a general election as late as March 1997.
    Most wondered how bad the thrashing would be. It was worse than I had imagined... much worse....but the defeat was very much self inflicted and deserved.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,722
    IanB2 said:

    MAIL: Tory MPs were aghast at the row, which comes when the Government is facing sleaze allegations over lobbying and procurement deals and only a week from a major round of local elections. 'It is a stupid self-inflicted wound that makes us look shifty and out of touch,' one former minister told the Mail.

    'If it had been dealt with straight away then people would have thought nothing of it. But the attempt to cover up what happened looks dodgy.'

    Another veteran Tory said: 'I genuinely think we are in trouble. You can argue that none of the things add up to much on their own. But there is a carelessness and arrogance in No 10 that is very dangerous.'

    There was also resentment in some quarters toward Ms Symonds, with the PM's fiancée dubbed 'Carrie Antoinette' on Tory WhatsApp groups over her allegedly expensive tastes.

    WhatsApp groups.. lol smear groups more like.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,098
    Thanks for the piece, Robert.


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    I am surprised that the rise in vacant retail units is not higher than this article suggests, having walked through Leicester City centre.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56925878.amp

    As ever, it is the left behind towns that are most affected.

    "The areas with the highest vacancy rates were the North East (19.3%), Wales (19.2%), and North West (17.7%). Greater London had the fewest empty shops at 10.7%, followed by the South East (12.7%) and East of England (14.1%)"
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,722
    Scott_xP said:

    The mobile number for Boris Johnson that has been available online for the last fifteen years now directs to a message saying the phone is switched off and advises the caller to send a text instead.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1388006815003197441

    So what.?. why do you post this twitter shit.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,098
    Scott_xP said:

    The mobile number for Boris Johnson that has been available online for the last fifteen years now directs to a message saying the phone is switched off and advises the caller to send a text instead.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1388006815003197441

    That reminds of the case when the BBC spent £100s of k trying to avoid revealing who had been at one of their policy setting climate change workshops, because some people were sceptical about whether activists such as Greenpeace had had too much input, which then turned out to have been published by one of the participants.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,538
    "Amazon hopes pandemic habits stick after profits triple"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56937428
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    Pulpstar said:

    We'll only know the true vaccine hesitancy levels later on in any country's rollout. Right now only Gibraltar and Israel are in this position.
    Gibraltar has administered over 200 doses per 100 est population, which indicates a hesitancy of ~ 0 and a higher than given population
    Israel's numbers I work to about 86% done and lots of children.

    I don't think that's true.

    Look at Alabama and Mississippi, they had big vaccine inventory issues very early on, and it was a clear sign of vaccine hesitancy.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,409
    ydoethur said:

    Good morning everyone.
    Is a collapse of Tory self-confidence on the horizon?

    There were still Tories who thought they could win a general election as late as March 1997.
    I'm not a very merry old soul this morning and that sort of thing doesn't help!

    I also recall Heseltine, as the early results came in, late that May evening, telling the Beeb that expected very good ones soon.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    How are France conducting their rollout? Is it prioritised by age/vulnerability (like ours) or is it turn up and get jabbed?

    If the former, those statistics are encouraging.

    If the latter, however, they’re not necessarily showing a lack of vaccine hesitancy.

    Currently, France is offering it to those aged 55 and above - see the table here:

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-19-vaccine-campaign-calendar-and-key-dates-for-2021
    Thanks. So on these figures, at least that group is showing a keenness to take it up.

    Let’s hope that feeds through into the younger age groups and that it doesn’t turn out that’s where all the conspiracy theorists were.
    The best way to beat vaccine hesitancy is dropping cases. People are quite keen when they see that. I expect France and other countries will be the same. Perhaps not in Alabama where QAnon cultists are up for the Darwin award.

    The EU is roughly 8 weeks behind us in take up, so will be in our fortunate position by the summer. That isn't going to stop PB Tories acting like an embittered ex obsessively stalking on Facebook though.
  • Scott_xP said:

    The mobile number for Boris Johnson that has been available online for the last fifteen years now directs to a message saying the phone is switched off and advises the caller to send a text instead.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1388006815003197441

    So what.?. why do you post this twitter shit.
    So what? The easy availability of the PM's phone number has been an integral part of the rolling story. Looks like someone in Tory HQ has finally instructed him to switch the sodding thing off and has issued him with a new secure number like any normal PM.

    IanB2 said:

    MAIL: Tory MPs were aghast at the row, which comes when the Government is facing sleaze allegations over lobbying and procurement deals and only a week from a major round of local elections. 'It is a stupid self-inflicted wound that makes us look shifty and out of touch,' one former minister told the Mail.

    'If it had been dealt with straight away then people would have thought nothing of it. But the attempt to cover up what happened looks dodgy.'

    Another veteran Tory said: 'I genuinely think we are in trouble. You can argue that none of the things add up to much on their own. But there is a carelessness and arrogance in No 10 that is very dangerous.'

    There was also resentment in some quarters toward Ms Symonds, with the PM's fiancée dubbed 'Carrie Antoinette' on Tory WhatsApp groups over her allegedly expensive tastes.

    WhatsApp groups.. lol smear groups more like.
    Smear Groups. Where Tory MPs smear other Tory MPs? Anyway is the suggestion that political smear platforms should be banned? Thats Facebook fucked then.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    edited April 2021
    Latest YouGov has the Tories extending their lead: Con 44% ( - ) Labour 33% ( -1).

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5wmdyo10ta/TheTimes_Voting_Intention_Track_210428__W.pdf

    Worth noting that when the 2017 local election seats were fought, the Tories also had an 11% lead over Labour on the actual result - albeit on 38%-27%. If Labour are to make any gains, they look to be from LibDems (7% now versus 18% actual in 2017). Labour will stand still as against the Tories at best (note YouGov has 3% for Refuk, but as most seats won't have a candidate that could add a point or two to the Tory lead).

    Those seats last fought in 2016 could prove to be horrible for Labour, where they actually finished one point ahead of the Tories on 31%, Tories on 30%, LibDems 15%, UKIP 12%. Looking at projections for these seats - where they won 1326 Councillors to the Tories 842 - may be where the gloom in Labour's internal machine is coming from.

    Starmer could be down 200-250 councillors after next Thursday.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350

    Latest YouGov has the Tories extending their lead: Con 44% ( - ) Labour 33% ( -1).

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5wmdyo10ta/TheTimes_Voting_Intention_Track_210428__W.pdf

    Worth noting that when the 2017 local election seats were fought, the Tories also had an 11% lead over Labour on the actual result - albeit on 38%-27%. If Labour are to make any gains, they look to be from LibDems (7% now versus 18% actual in 2017). Labour will stand still as against the Tories at best (note YouGov has 3% for Refuk, but as most seats won't have a candidate that could add a point or two to the Tory lead).

    Those seats last fought in 2016 could prove to be horrible for Labour, where they actually finished one point ahead of the Tories on 31%, Tories on 30%, LibDems 15%, UKIP 12%. Looking at projections for these seats - where they won 1326 Councillors to the Tories 842 - may be where the gloom in Labour's internal machine is coming from.

    Starmer could be down 200-250 councillors after next Thursday.

    I would love to know what idiot came up with a party name that shortens to ‘Refuck.’
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Andy_JS said:

    "Amazon hopes pandemic habits stick after profits triple"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56937428

    I'm more inclined to shop in and support the smaller local places as they open.
    I am trying to give independents a chance rather than the big companies.

    This excludes AZ who can supply my 2nd dose on 5th May.
  • Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    How are France conducting their rollout? Is it prioritised by age/vulnerability (like ours) or is it turn up and get jabbed?

    If the former, those statistics are encouraging.

    If the latter, however, they’re not necessarily showing a lack of vaccine hesitancy.

    Currently, France is offering it to those aged 55 and above - see the table here:

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-19-vaccine-campaign-calendar-and-key-dates-for-2021
    Thanks. So on these figures, at least that group is showing a keenness to take it up.

    Let’s hope that feeds through into the younger age groups and that it doesn’t turn out that’s where all the conspiracy theorists were.
    The best way to beat vaccine hesitancy is dropping cases. People are quite keen when they see that. I expect France and other countries will be the same. Perhaps not in Alabama where QAnon cultists are up for the Darwin award.

    The EU is roughly 8 weeks behind us in take up, so will be in our fortunate position by the summer. That isn't going to stop PB Tories acting like an embittered ex obsessively stalking on Facebook though.
    Probably more like 5-6 weeks
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    NHS England vaccination website just opened to those 40+ on 1 July
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,098

    And here is the prize you are reaching for, France:

    January in the UK: 30,000 Covid deaths

    April in the UK: fewer than 600.

    "About 22 million people in the UK are living in areas that have not reported any Covid-19 deaths in April, according to BBC News analysis.

    By comparison, in a four-week period during January's peak, fewer than 50,000 people lived in such places."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56923757

    France may not reach that - too much COVID out there, and probably not a hard enough lockdown.

    They started reopening schools last week, and a week later numbers are :

    - active vaccine is currently at 16% of the pop,
    - R is 0.9 for the last couple of days and
    - cases are at 400 per million. 30k per day.

    UK numbers for when schools reopened - March 8th

    - active vaccines was 26%,
    - R was at 0.75,
    - and confirmed cases were at 90 per million.

    I'd say they are at least 3 weeks too early, possibly quite a lot more, on top of the one week difference above.

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20210426-covid-19-schools-reopen-across-france-despite-spike-in-icu-admissions
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    How are France conducting their rollout? Is it prioritised by age/vulnerability (like ours) or is it turn up and get jabbed?

    If the former, those statistics are encouraging.

    If the latter, however, they’re not necessarily showing a lack of vaccine hesitancy.

    Currently, France is offering it to those aged 55 and above - see the table here:

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-19-vaccine-campaign-calendar-and-key-dates-for-2021
    Thanks. So on these figures, at least that group is showing a keenness to take it up.

    Let’s hope that feeds through into the younger age groups and that it doesn’t turn out that’s where all the conspiracy theorists were.
    The best way to beat vaccine hesitancy is dropping cases. People are quite keen when they see that. I expect France and other countries will be the same. Perhaps not in Alabama where QAnon cultists are up for the Darwin award.

    The EU is roughly 8 weeks behind us in take up, so will be in our fortunate position by the summer. That isn't going to stop PB Tories acting like an embittered ex obsessively stalking on Facebook though.
    Hopefully the shit-talking by EU politicians about vaccines will end then.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207
    If you want to play with the French numbers, there are specifically French graphs at https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker/

    It's always been a supply issue, and that's increasingly fixed. The "millions of unused doses" stories all came just after big deliveries. Even now, AZ is tending to come in spurts, rather than a smooth flow.

    In the oldest age group(75+), they're at 75% single dosed and still going.

    As of now, France etc are about two months behind the UK, but that gap will take less than two months to close; deliveries are due to accelerate in May and again in June.

    And because of the whole open data thing, that the UK hasn't done, most of this has been knowable for a while.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Way Off Topic - Just ran into this (IMHO) stereotypical English anecdote, from the wiki bio of the late Sir Neil Marten, who at the time was Conservative MP for Banbury:

    A keen raconteur, Marten told a story of a tour he took around the Palace of Westminster with his Banbury constituents. Touring through the maze of corridors they turned a corner and met Lord Hailsham, the Lord Chancellor, wearing the full regalia of his office. Recognising his Parliamentary colleague in the midst of the Banbury constituents, Hailsham boomed, "Neil". Not needing to be told again, the tour party fell to its knees with some haste.

    It’s true, but was in Westminster Hall
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,157
    IanB2 said:

    NHS England vaccination website just opened to those 40+ on 1 July

    A good sign of strong supply
  • Anyway, its Friday morning so lets set a nice test of legal and moral right and wrong.

    It is only right that an individual should be able to choose which laws apply to them. It is only right that when a complaint is made and an investigation carried out to determine if that individual has broken the strict professional code that directs their behaviour, that the accused is able to discard the findings against them and carry on in role.

    Its only fair. Lawyers get to dismiss professional misconduct convictions. Doctors. Bent Coppers. People who steal from work. So it is an outrage for people to think there is something wrong with the Prime Minister being able to simply dismiss the professional misconduct findings that are presented to him about his behaviour.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    What proportion of 75+ have received a first dose in France?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    MAIL: Tory MPs were aghast at the row, which comes when the Government is facing sleaze allegations over lobbying and procurement deals and only a week from a major round of local elections. 'It is a stupid self-inflicted wound that makes us look shifty and out of touch,' one former minister told the Mail.

    'If it had been dealt with straight away then people would have thought nothing of it. But the attempt to cover up what happened looks dodgy.'

    Another veteran Tory said: 'I genuinely think we are in trouble. You can argue that none of the things add up to much on their own. But there is a carelessness and arrogance in No 10 that is very dangerous.'

    There was also resentment in some quarters toward Ms Symonds, with the PM's fiancée dubbed 'Carrie Antoinette' on Tory WhatsApp groups over her allegedly expensive tastes.

    Former minister - Phil Hammond
    Veteran Tory - George Osborne

    If people aren’t willing to be named it’s just bitchiness
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    We'll only know the true vaccine hesitancy levels later on in any country's rollout. Right now only Gibraltar and Israel are in this position.
    Gibraltar has administered over 200 doses per 100 est population, which indicates a hesitancy of ~ 0 and a higher than given population
    Israel's numbers I work to about 86% done and lots of children.

    I don't think that's true.

    Look at Alabama and Mississippi, they had big vaccine inventory issues very early on, and it was a clear sign of vaccine hesitancy.
    Yes, if a country is stratifying its rollout by age (or occupation, etc.) then hesitancy reveals relatively early. We saw this with our rollout within the NHS staffing base, where it seems hesitancy was (at least back then) higher than it subsequently proved among the elderly.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Good article Robert but just a small correction when making comparisons, that data is percentage of adults not percentage of people.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    How are France conducting their rollout? Is it prioritised by age/vulnerability (like ours) or is it turn up and get jabbed?

    If the former, those statistics are encouraging.

    If the latter, however, they’re not necessarily showing a lack of vaccine hesitancy.

    Currently, France is offering it to those aged 55 and above - see the table here:

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-19-vaccine-campaign-calendar-and-key-dates-for-2021
    Thanks. So on these figures, at least that group is showing a keenness to take it up.

    Let’s hope that feeds through into the younger age groups and that it doesn’t turn out that’s where all the conspiracy theorists were.
    The best way to beat vaccine hesitancy is dropping cases. People are quite keen when they see that. I expect France and other countries will be the same. Perhaps not in Alabama where QAnon cultists are up for the Darwin award.

    The EU is roughly 8 weeks behind us in take up, so will be in our fortunate position by the summer. That isn't going to stop PB Tories acting like an embittered ex obsessively stalking on Facebook though.
    Probably more like 5-6 weeks
    Yes, perhaps so. In any case, in the EU, UK, and most States of the USA Covid will be history by the summer.

    I think though that a number of other developing countries remain as vulnerable as India, as very low vaccination rates, including China.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Anyway, its Friday morning so lets set a nice test of legal and moral right and wrong.

    It is only right that an individual should be able to choose which laws apply to them. It is only right that when a complaint is made and an investigation carried out to determine if that individual has broken the strict professional code that directs their behaviour, that the accused is able to discard the findings against them and carry on in role.

    Its only fair. Lawyers get to dismiss professional misconduct convictions. Doctors. Bent Coppers. People who steal from work. So it is an outrage for people to think there is something wrong with the Prime Minister being able to simply dismiss the professional misconduct findings that are presented to him about his behaviour.

    There - was that so hard? :smiley:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    How are France conducting their rollout? Is it prioritised by age/vulnerability (like ours) or is it turn up and get jabbed?

    If the former, those statistics are encouraging.

    If the latter, however, they’re not necessarily showing a lack of vaccine hesitancy.

    Currently, France is offering it to those aged 55 and above - see the table here:

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-19-vaccine-campaign-calendar-and-key-dates-for-2021
    Thanks. So on these figures, at least that group is showing a keenness to take it up.

    Let’s hope that feeds through into the younger age groups and that it doesn’t turn out that’s where all the conspiracy theorists were.
    The best way to beat vaccine hesitancy is dropping cases. People are quite keen when they see that. I expect France and other countries will be the same. Perhaps not in Alabama where QAnon cultists are up for the Darwin award.

    The EU is roughly 8 weeks behind us in take up, so will be in our fortunate position by the summer. That isn't going to stop PB Tories acting like an embittered ex obsessively stalking on Facebook though.
    Hopefully the shit-talking by EU politicians about vaccines will end then.
    An embittered ex speaks...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    We'll only know the true vaccine hesitancy levels later on in any country's rollout. Right now only Gibraltar and Israel are in this position.
    Gibraltar has administered over 200 doses per 100 est population, which indicates a hesitancy of ~ 0 and a higher than given population
    Israel's numbers I work to about 86% done and lots of children.

    I don't think that's true.

    Look at Alabama and Mississippi, they had big vaccine inventory issues very early on, and it was a clear sign of vaccine hesitancy.
    Yes, if a country is stratifying its rollout by age (or occupation, etc.) then hesitancy reveals relatively early. We saw this with our rollout within the NHS staffing base, where it seems hesitancy was (at least back then) higher than it subsequently proved among the elderly.
    A Greek friend told me that workers in tourist industries are being given priority, something not entirely popular in the cities.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    I rather like this bit of covid stimulus. In Italy those on incomes less than €40 000 get €500 to spend on a domestic holiday.

    https://twitter.com/TheLocalItaly/status/1387803509270007814?s=19
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    MAIL: Tory MPs were aghast at the row, which comes when the Government is facing sleaze allegations over lobbying and procurement deals and only a week from a major round of local elections. 'It is a stupid self-inflicted wound that makes us look shifty and out of touch,' one former minister told the Mail.

    'If it had been dealt with straight away then people would have thought nothing of it. But the attempt to cover up what happened looks dodgy.'

    Another veteran Tory said: 'I genuinely think we are in trouble. You can argue that none of the things add up to much on their own. But there is a carelessness and arrogance in No 10 that is very dangerous.'

    There was also resentment in some quarters toward Ms Symonds, with the PM's fiancée dubbed 'Carrie Antoinette' on Tory WhatsApp groups over her allegedly expensive tastes.

    Former minister - Phil Hammond
    Veteran Tory - George Osborne

    If people aren’t willing to be named it’s just bitchiness
    I'd assumed they had Hunky Dunc on their speed-dial....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Anyway, its Friday morning so lets set a nice test of legal and moral right and wrong.

    It is only right that an individual should be able to choose which laws apply to them. It is only right that when a complaint is made and an investigation carried out to determine if that individual has broken the strict professional code that directs their behaviour, that the accused is able to discard the findings against them and carry on in role.

    Its only fair. Lawyers get to dismiss professional misconduct convictions. Doctors. Bent Coppers. People who steal from work. So it is an outrage for people to think there is something wrong with the Prime Minister being able to simply dismiss the professional misconduct findings that are presented to him about his behaviour.

    The Prime Minister should be subject to the same courts as the rest of us. If he receives a criminal conviction at a court of law then of course he should resign.

    Anonymous people claiming on social media that he has done something wrong is not a court of law.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    ydoethur said:

    Latest YouGov has the Tories extending their lead: Con 44% ( - ) Labour 33% ( -1).

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5wmdyo10ta/TheTimes_Voting_Intention_Track_210428__W.pdf

    Worth noting that when the 2017 local election seats were fought, the Tories also had an 11% lead over Labour on the actual result - albeit on 38%-27%. If Labour are to make any gains, they look to be from LibDems (7% now versus 18% actual in 2017). Labour will stand still as against the Tories at best (note YouGov has 3% for Refuk, but as most seats won't have a candidate that could add a point or two to the Tory lead).

    Those seats last fought in 2016 could prove to be horrible for Labour, where they actually finished one point ahead of the Tories on 31%, Tories on 30%, LibDems 15%, UKIP 12%. Looking at projections for these seats - where they won 1326 Councillors to the Tories 842 - may be where the gloom in Labour's internal machine is coming from.

    Starmer could be down 200-250 councillors after next Thursday.

    I would love to know what idiot came up with a party name that shortens to ‘Refuck.’
    Vote for the party who doesn't give a Refuk about branding.....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,873
    France and the EU not doing too badly.....that'll have Max and Leon crying into their cornflakes
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,772
    edited April 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    NHS England vaccination website just opened to those 40+ on 1 July

    A good sign of strong supply
    Yes, expecting 37-39 year olds to be invited next week and then 34-36 (annoyingly as I'm 33) the week after that. May will be a big month for first doses, by the end people in their late 20s should all get invited meaning that only 18-27 year olds will be left waiting until June. I think we might actually get everyone done with a first dose just around June 21st.

    Once all the first doses are done we can use all ~20m monthly supply to work through second doses so we may only need until the end of July to get almost all second doses done.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    MAIL: Tory MPs were aghast at the row, which comes when the Government is facing sleaze allegations over lobbying and procurement deals and only a week from a major round of local elections. 'It is a stupid self-inflicted wound that makes us look shifty and out of touch,' one former minister told the Mail.

    'If it had been dealt with straight away then people would have thought nothing of it. But the attempt to cover up what happened looks dodgy.'

    Another veteran Tory said: 'I genuinely think we are in trouble. You can argue that none of the things add up to much on their own. But there is a carelessness and arrogance in No 10 that is very dangerous.'

    There was also resentment in some quarters toward Ms Symonds, with the PM's fiancée dubbed 'Carrie Antoinette' on Tory WhatsApp groups over her allegedly expensive tastes.

    Former minister - Phil Hammond
    Veteran Tory - George Osborne

    If people aren’t willing to be named it’s just bitchiness
    Sky were finally able to get a 'Tory' willing to be named yesterday ... Breaking News: Dominic Grieve does not like Boris.

    In other breaking news, George Galloway didn't like Tony Blair after he kicked him out of the party.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015

    IanB2 said:

    Cash for Curtains SOLVED: Carrie simply needs to accept the BBC’s invitation to join this year’s Strictly contest, and the fee will pay for the redecoration.

    Or I'm a Celebrity....
    The decor would likely not be up to her standards.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    How are France conducting their rollout? Is it prioritised by age/vulnerability (like ours) or is it turn up and get jabbed?

    If the former, those statistics are encouraging.

    If the latter, however, they’re not necessarily showing a lack of vaccine hesitancy.

    Currently, France is offering it to those aged 55 and above - see the table here:

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/France-Covid-19-vaccine-campaign-calendar-and-key-dates-for-2021
    Thanks. So on these figures, at least that group is showing a keenness to take it up.

    Let’s hope that feeds through into the younger age groups and that it doesn’t turn out that’s where all the conspiracy theorists were.
    The best way to beat vaccine hesitancy is dropping cases. People are quite keen when they see that. I expect France and other countries will be the same. Perhaps not in Alabama where QAnon cultists are up for the Darwin award.

    The EU is roughly 8 weeks behind us in take up, so will be in our fortunate position by the summer. That isn't going to stop PB Tories acting like an embittered ex obsessively stalking on Facebook though.
    Hopefully the shit-talking by EU politicians about vaccines will end then.
    An embittered ex speaks...
    This morning I have made detailed posts - with masses of information - on French vaccination rates, UK regional Covid deaths, the latest polling and pointed out the potential impact on local elections.

    You? Just a bitchy re-running of the Brexit wars. Grow up.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,632

    ydoethur said:

    Latest YouGov has the Tories extending their lead: Con 44% ( - ) Labour 33% ( -1).

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5wmdyo10ta/TheTimes_Voting_Intention_Track_210428__W.pdf

    Worth noting that when the 2017 local election seats were fought, the Tories also had an 11% lead over Labour on the actual result - albeit on 38%-27%. If Labour are to make any gains, they look to be from LibDems (7% now versus 18% actual in 2017). Labour will stand still as against the Tories at best (note YouGov has 3% for Refuk, but as most seats won't have a candidate that could add a point or two to the Tory lead).

    Those seats last fought in 2016 could prove to be horrible for Labour, where they actually finished one point ahead of the Tories on 31%, Tories on 30%, LibDems 15%, UKIP 12%. Looking at projections for these seats - where they won 1326 Councillors to the Tories 842 - may be where the gloom in Labour's internal machine is coming from.

    Starmer could be down 200-250 councillors after next Thursday.

    I would love to know what idiot came up with a party name that shortens to ‘Refuck.’
    Vote for the party who doesn't give a Refuk about branding.....
    They fuked the country once, they want to do it all over again. Very apt.
  • Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    MAIL: Tory MPs were aghast at the row, which comes when the Government is facing sleaze allegations over lobbying and procurement deals and only a week from a major round of local elections. 'It is a stupid self-inflicted wound that makes us look shifty and out of touch,' one former minister told the Mail.

    'If it had been dealt with straight away then people would have thought nothing of it. But the attempt to cover up what happened looks dodgy.'

    Another veteran Tory said: 'I genuinely think we are in trouble. You can argue that none of the things add up to much on their own. But there is a carelessness and arrogance in No 10 that is very dangerous.'

    There was also resentment in some quarters toward Ms Symonds, with the PM's fiancée dubbed 'Carrie Antoinette' on Tory WhatsApp groups over her allegedly expensive tastes.

    Former minister - Phil Hammond
    Veteran Tory - George Osborne

    If people aren’t willing to be named it’s just bitchiness
    Sky were finally able to get a 'Tory' willing to be named yesterday ... Breaking News: Dominic Grieve does not like Boris.

    In other breaking news, George Galloway didn't like Tony Blair after he kicked him out of the party.
    Grieve has been on a few times

    And he is so bitter
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    edited April 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Latest YouGov has the Tories extending their lead: Con 44% ( - ) Labour 33% ( -1).

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5wmdyo10ta/TheTimes_Voting_Intention_Track_210428__W.pdf

    Worth noting that when the 2017 local election seats were fought, the Tories also had an 11% lead over Labour on the actual result - albeit on 38%-27%. If Labour are to make any gains, they look to be from LibDems (7% now versus 18% actual in 2017). Labour will stand still as against the Tories at best (note YouGov has 3% for Refuk, but as most seats won't have a candidate that could add a point or two to the Tory lead).

    Those seats last fought in 2016 could prove to be horrible for Labour, where they actually finished one point ahead of the Tories on 31%, Tories on 30%, LibDems 15%, UKIP 12%. Looking at projections for these seats - where they won 1326 Councillors to the Tories 842 - may be where the gloom in Labour's internal machine is coming from.

    Starmer could be down 200-250 councillors after next Thursday.

    I would love to know what idiot came up with a party name that shortens to ‘Refuck.’
    The English nationalists have done it once to the UK, so admirable for them to be so clear about their continued intentions.
    (edit... I see the point is so clear that it’s already been noted.)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Politico's vaccine data (2 days worth in most cases):

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,309

    Scott_xP said:

    The mobile number for Boris Johnson that has been available online for the last fifteen years now directs to a message saying the phone is switched off and advises the caller to send a text instead.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1388006815003197441

    So what.?. why do you post this twitter shit.
    Because some people are interested in the tribulations of the great buffoon and may not see it otherwise.
    Are you the arbiter of what gets posted, if you don't like it go to the next one.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Not sure this will help French vaccine hesitancy:

    Paris prosecutors specializing in health-related investigations have opened an involuntary manslaughter probe into three deaths that occurred following Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccinations, AFP reported on Wednesday. They are taking over and combining three investigations from local prosecutors that began on a regional level following complaints from the families of the deceased.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/manslaughter-probe-into-deaths-following-astrazeneca-vaccines-launched-by-french-prosecutors/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,774
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. B, this charge of English nationalism continues to confound me.

    How are the English Democrats doing in the polls?

    It sounds like a simplistic slogan to try and denigrate those (primarily English) who had the temerity to oppose the EU. A continuation, lower grade, of Cameron's foolish 'Little Englanders' attack line.

    It's especially ironic as England, unlike Scotland or Wales, doesn't have a major nationalist party.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Has this been done?

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1387791371491237889
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 44% (-)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    GRN: 7% (-)
    LDEM: 7% (+2)
    REFUK: 3% (+1)

    via @YouGov , 27 - 28 Apr
    Chgs. w/ 22 Apr


    "But his wallpaper ..."
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,357

    Scott_xP said:

    The mobile number for Boris Johnson that has been available online for the last fifteen years now directs to a message saying the phone is switched off and advises the caller to send a text instead.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1388006815003197441

    So what.?. why do you post this twitter shit.
    By his own admission he does it to wind up ‘PB Tories’. He must lead a pretty sorry existence. He wakes up, scans Twitter for nonsense to post. Spams this group with it, then trawls to see who replies. Hardly anyone bites. Most people just ignore and he is howling into the wind. I’d have thought Facebook politics groups would be ideal for him.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,582
    Does Paris have a similar anti-vaxxer issue as London ?

    And do NYC, LA ?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,309

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. B, this charge of English nationalism continues to confound me.

    How are the English Democrats doing in the polls?

    It sounds like a simplistic slogan to try and denigrate those (primarily English) who had the temerity to oppose the EU. A continuation, lower grade, of Cameron's foolish 'Little Englanders' attack line.

    It's especially ironic as England, unlike Scotland or Wales, doesn't have a major nationalist party.

    LOL, Tories/UKIP, two cheeks of the same arse are the English Nationalist Party
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. B, this charge of English nationalism continues to confound me.

    How are the English Democrats doing in the polls?

    It sounds like a simplistic slogan to try and denigrate those (primarily English) who had the temerity to oppose the EU. A continuation, lower grade, of Cameron's foolish 'Little Englanders' attack line.

    It's especially ironic as England, unlike Scotland or Wales, doesn't have a major nationalist party.

    Our views of the current Tory party somewhat differ.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited April 2021
    And while EU countries are upping their game, there remain questions over the motivation for the Commission's demands for UK AstraZeneca supply at the height of the UK pandemic - was it to help the EU, or hinder the UK?:

    8. So naturally good old Blighty had to be whipping boy.

    It's worth keeping in mind that even if AZ had capitulated & given UK manufactured vaccines to the EU, the numbers would have made little difference due to population size.

    9. Assuming stocks were split 50/50 EU/UK, the number of vaccines exported to the EU would have been maybe 1.5 - 2 million a week. Not enough to make a significant improvement to the EU rollout. But enough to hinder the UK's rollout significantly.

    14. So the EU cannot win, no matter the outcome of the litigation.

    If, as expected, the EU loses, it will look like a vindictive neighbour, hell bent on causing harm & disruption to the UK & its people. UK cases were much higher than Europe's when vaccine demands were 1st made.


    Thread:

    https://twitter.com/BarristersHorse/status/1387595778764464131?s=20
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,357
    ydoethur said:

    Good morning everyone.
    Is a collapse of Tory self-confidence on the horizon?

    There were still Tories who thought they could win a general election as late as March 1997.
    On election night on one of the broadcasts they were claiming they’d hold on to seats like Mitcham and Morden when swung massively to labour in the end, bizarre.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,774
    Mr. G, which of those has English separation from the UK as official policy?

    Mr. B, does the Conservative Party advocate England leaving the UK?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,807
    ydoethur said:

    Latest YouGov has the Tories extending their lead: Con 44% ( - ) Labour 33% ( -1).

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5wmdyo10ta/TheTimes_Voting_Intention_Track_210428__W.pdf

    Worth noting that when the 2017 local election seats were fought, the Tories also had an 11% lead over Labour on the actual result - albeit on 38%-27%. If Labour are to make any gains, they look to be from LibDems (7% now versus 18% actual in 2017). Labour will stand still as against the Tories at best (note YouGov has 3% for Refuk, but as most seats won't have a candidate that could add a point or two to the Tory lead).

    Those seats last fought in 2016 could prove to be horrible for Labour, where they actually finished one point ahead of the Tories on 31%, Tories on 30%, LibDems 15%, UKIP 12%. Looking at projections for these seats - where they won 1326 Councillors to the Tories 842 - may be where the gloom in Labour's internal machine is coming from.

    Starmer could be down 200-250 councillors after next Thursday.

    I would love to know what idiot came up with a party name that shortens to ‘Refuck.’
    They may be related to the one who thought ladbrokesexchange.com was a sensible choice when Ladbrokes bought Betdaq and wanted a Ladbrokes branded version of it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    malcolmg said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. B, this charge of English nationalism continues to confound me.

    How are the English Democrats doing in the polls?

    It sounds like a simplistic slogan to try and denigrate those (primarily English) who had the temerity to oppose the EU. A continuation, lower grade, of Cameron's foolish 'Little Englanders' attack line.

    It's especially ironic as England, unlike Scotland or Wales, doesn't have a major nationalist party.

    LOL, Tories/UKIP, two cheeks of the same arse are the English Nationalist Party
    Oh really? So a vote for Tories is a vote for 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 independence?

    Bring it on. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005

    Latest YouGov has the Tories extending their lead: Con 44% ( - ) Labour 33% ( -1).

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5wmdyo10ta/TheTimes_Voting_Intention_Track_210428__W.pdf

    Worth noting that when the 2017 local election seats were fought, the Tories also had an 11% lead over Labour on the actual result - albeit on 38%-27%. If Labour are to make any gains, they look to be from LibDems (7% now versus 18% actual in 2017). Labour will stand still as against the Tories at best (note YouGov has 3% for Refuk, but as most seats won't have a candidate that could add a point or two to the Tory lead).

    Those seats last fought in 2016 could prove to be horrible for Labour, where they actually finished one point ahead of the Tories on 31%, Tories on 30%, LibDems 15%, UKIP 12%. Looking at projections for these seats - where they won 1326 Councillors to the Tories 842 - may be where the gloom in Labour's internal machine is coming from.

    Starmer could be down 200-250 councillors after next Thursday.

    I've almost always voted Tory. I would still do so in a general election. However I'm pretty fed up with local Tory planning decisions and am flirting with voting Green for some candidates. If I'm representative then these local elections do not represent overall opinion.
  • Daily Mail back on board this morning

    Front page headline 'What a boost for Britain ' on vaccine rollout and plummeting infections

    And on the inside 'The Jokes on you , Sir Keir' referring to his woeful photo stunt

    It was an avoidable error by Starmer and he needs better advisors
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,807

    Anyway, its Friday morning so lets set a nice test of legal and moral right and wrong.

    It is only right that an individual should be able to choose which laws apply to them. It is only right that when a complaint is made and an investigation carried out to determine if that individual has broken the strict professional code that directs their behaviour, that the accused is able to discard the findings against them and carry on in role.

    Its only fair. Lawyers get to dismiss professional misconduct convictions. Doctors. Bent Coppers. People who steal from work. So it is an outrage for people to think there is something wrong with the Prime Minister being able to simply dismiss the professional misconduct findings that are presented to him about his behaviour.

    The Prime Minister should be subject to the same courts as the rest of us. If he receives a criminal conviction at a court of law then of course he should resign.

    Anonymous people claiming on social media that he has done something wrong is not a court of law.
    Can the rest of us veto the publication of an official inquiry into ourselves? Or decide the terms of reference into such an inquiry?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,339
    edited April 2021
    IanB2 said:

    NHS England vaccination website just opened to those 40+ on 1 July

    NHS Scotland website still says 50+.

    Are there any statistics on the rate of missed second dose appointments?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,782

    Has this been done?

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1387791371491237889
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 44% (-)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    GRN: 7% (-)
    LDEM: 7% (+2)
    REFUK: 3% (+1)

    via @YouGov , 27 - 28 Apr
    Chgs. w/ 22 Apr


    "But his wallpaper ..."

    There is a distinction between doing the right thing and being popular Philip. I should know I support the LDs.

    I would be happy to give Boris the benefit of the doubt. If you remember I supported him here recently on another issue. But why the hell is he unwilling to answer a very easy question?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Anyway, its Friday morning so lets set a nice test of legal and moral right and wrong.

    It is only right that an individual should be able to choose which laws apply to them. It is only right that when a complaint is made and an investigation carried out to determine if that individual has broken the strict professional code that directs their behaviour, that the accused is able to discard the findings against them and carry on in role.

    Its only fair. Lawyers get to dismiss professional misconduct convictions. Doctors. Bent Coppers. People who steal from work. So it is an outrage for people to think there is something wrong with the Prime Minister being able to simply dismiss the professional misconduct findings that are presented to him about his behaviour.

    The Prime Minister should be subject to the same courts as the rest of us. If he receives a criminal conviction at a court of law then of course he should resign.

    Anonymous people claiming on social media that he has done something wrong is not a court of law.
    I was thinking about this last night.

    Does anyone know the financial year in which this work was done? I wonder if the reluctance to reveal who repaid the loan was that it was a bridging loan - ie Boris claimed 2 years worth of the refurbishment allowance (£60k) and used the loan to bridge the gap.

    I’ve no idea if that would be in the rules (strikes me as a bit of a grey area) or if it happened but it’s a possibility he might not want to put out there as it is certainly a but cute
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Anyway, its Friday morning so lets set a nice test of legal and moral right and wrong.

    It is only right that an individual should be able to choose which laws apply to them. It is only right that when a complaint is made and an investigation carried out to determine if that individual has broken the strict professional code that directs their behaviour, that the accused is able to discard the findings against them and carry on in role.

    Its only fair. Lawyers get to dismiss professional misconduct convictions. Doctors. Bent Coppers. People who steal from work. So it is an outrage for people to think there is something wrong with the Prime Minister being able to simply dismiss the professional misconduct findings that are presented to him about his behaviour.

    The Prime Minister should be subject to the same courts as the rest of us. If he receives a criminal conviction at a court of law then of course he should resign.

    Anonymous people claiming on social media that he has done something wrong is not a court of law.
    Can the rest of us veto the publication of an official inquiry into ourselves? Or decide the terms of reference into such an inquiry?
    It depends.

    If the inquiry is by the Police and the CPS then the PM can't veto it, can he?
    If you're eg Director of a company and you hire someone to create a report for you and to report to you, then I don't see why you couldn't.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning everyone.
    Is a collapse of Tory self-confidence on the horizon?

    There were still Tories who thought they could win a general election as late as March 1997.
    On election night on one of the broadcasts they were claiming they’d hold on to seats like Mitcham and Morden when swung massively to labour in the end, bizarre.
    Sure, there is self delusion, but it is psychologically nessecary to think that there is a chance of victory in order to campaign. Its like Preston North End vs Manchester City in the Cup. Important to believe victory is possible.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,357

    Daily Mail back on board this morning

    Front page headline 'What a boost for Britain ' on vaccine rollout and plummeting infections

    And on the inside 'The Jokes on you , Sir Keir' referring to his woeful photo stunt

    It was an avoidable error by Starmer and he needs better advisors

    Exactly. And that was the point I was clumsily making about twitter yesterday in relation to it, namely something that may play well to a few blue tick media commentators and party fans on Twitter or social media doesn’t necessarily reflect how well or not it plays in the country as a whole.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,782

    Scott_xP said:

    The mobile number for Boris Johnson that has been available online for the last fifteen years now directs to a message saying the phone is switched off and advises the caller to send a text instead.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1388006815003197441

    So what.?. why do you post this twitter shit.
    Most of us appreciate the links @Scott_P and @HYUFD post as has been discussed many times before. You don't have to read them.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kjh said:

    Has this been done?

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1387791371491237889
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 44% (-)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    GRN: 7% (-)
    LDEM: 7% (+2)
    REFUK: 3% (+1)

    via @YouGov , 27 - 28 Apr
    Chgs. w/ 22 Apr


    "But his wallpaper ..."

    There is a distinction between doing the right thing and being popular Philip. I should know I support the LDs.

    I would be happy to give Boris the benefit of the doubt. If you remember I supported him here recently on another issue. But why the hell is he unwilling to answer a very easy question?
    He's answered the question as far as I'm concerned: the question originally was who is paying for it and the answer is he paid for it. 🤷‍♂️

    Now people have moved on to other questions as they tend to do. It becomes one of those process stories that you answer one question and then people drag it out and out and out. He's paid for it, there's a report ongoing and if any further declarations are needed then they'll be made. Big freaking deal. Millions of people are worried about their jobs, around the world there's thousands of people a day dying from the virus and this is what the media want to talk about? Its narcissistic puerile nonsense.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    Charles said:

    Anyway, its Friday morning so lets set a nice test of legal and moral right and wrong.

    It is only right that an individual should be able to choose which laws apply to them. It is only right that when a complaint is made and an investigation carried out to determine if that individual has broken the strict professional code that directs their behaviour, that the accused is able to discard the findings against them and carry on in role.

    Its only fair. Lawyers get to dismiss professional misconduct convictions. Doctors. Bent Coppers. People who steal from work. So it is an outrage for people to think there is something wrong with the Prime Minister being able to simply dismiss the professional misconduct findings that are presented to him about his behaviour.

    The Prime Minister should be subject to the same courts as the rest of us. If he receives a criminal conviction at a court of law then of course he should resign.

    Anonymous people claiming on social media that he has done something wrong is not a court of law.
    I was thinking about this last night.

    Does anyone know the financial year in which this work was done? I wonder if the reluctance to reveal who repaid the loan was that it was a bridging loan - ie Boris claimed 2 years worth of the refurbishment allowance (£60k) and used the loan to bridge the gap.

    I’ve no idea if that would be in the rules (strikes me as a bit of a grey area) or if it happened but it’s a possibility he might not want to put out there as it is certainly a but cute
    Well a bit of honesty from the PM could soon clear it up if that was the case.

    But honesty, from Johnson? I wouldn't hold your breath.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    MAIL: Tory MPs were aghast at the row, which comes when the Government is facing sleaze allegations over lobbying and procurement deals and only a week from a major round of local elections. 'It is a stupid self-inflicted wound that makes us look shifty and out of touch,' one former minister told the Mail.

    'If it had been dealt with straight away then people would have thought nothing of it. But the attempt to cover up what happened looks dodgy.'

    Another veteran Tory said: 'I genuinely think we are in trouble. You can argue that none of the things add up to much on their own. But there is a carelessness and arrogance in No 10 that is very dangerous.'

    There was also resentment in some quarters toward Ms Symonds, with the PM's fiancée dubbed 'Carrie Antoinette' on Tory WhatsApp groups over her allegedly expensive tastes.

    Former minister - Phil Hammond
    Veteran Tory - George Osborne

    If people aren’t willing to be named it’s just bitchiness
    Sky were finally able to get a 'Tory' willing to be named yesterday ... Breaking News: Dominic Grieve does not like Boris.

    In other breaking news, George Galloway didn't like Tony Blair after he kicked him out of the party.
    Grieve has been on a few times

    And he is so bitter
    He thought he was indispensable.

    My mentor spent around 20 years in the Cabinet. He said that during that time Cabinet made 3 important decisions.

    1 of them was wrong, and on 1 on them he had no influence… but he was very proud of the other decision that he made*

    * the history of Ireland could have been very different if he has not persuaded Heath to step back from an action that was very very wrong
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,274
    The UK media had a narrative they were determined to stick with even when the facts changed . Any EU supply issues have been over for weeks and in the case of unused doses much of that was AZ but not just because of vaccine hesitancy but the issue of whether AZ would even stick to short term schedules so they had to keep much more of that back for second doses .
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,339

    Anyway, its Friday morning so lets set a nice test of legal and moral right and wrong.

    It is only right that an individual should be able to choose which laws apply to them. It is only right that when a complaint is made and an investigation carried out to determine if that individual has broken the strict professional code that directs their behaviour, that the accused is able to discard the findings against them and carry on in role.

    Its only fair. Lawyers get to dismiss professional misconduct convictions. Doctors. Bent Coppers. People who steal from work. So it is an outrage for people to think there is something wrong with the Prime Minister being able to simply dismiss the professional misconduct findings that are presented to him about his behaviour.

    The Prime Minister should be subject to the same courts as the rest of us. If he receives a criminal conviction at a court of law then of course he should resign.

    Anonymous people claiming on social media that he has done something wrong is not a court of law.
    Can the rest of us veto the publication of an official inquiry into ourselves? Or decide the terms of reference into such an inquiry?
    It depends.

    If the inquiry is by the Police and the CPS then the PM can't veto it, can he?
    If you're eg Director of a company and you hire someone to create a report for you and to report to you, then I don't see why you couldn't.
    The key problem in the PM's example is the Royal Prerogative.

    The constitutional fiction is that government ministers are appointed by the Sovereign, and that the Prime Minister only provides advice. This means that the PM is not in any position to give the power of dismissing her Ministers, including themself, to someone investigating impropriety.

    The constitutional remedy is for the Commons to use its powers of impeachment - but the strength of the party whip makes that a distant prospect at present.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Has there been any public questioning in some of the Sputnik driven rollouts in central and Eastern European countries about the (on the face of it) mixed effectiveness of the vaccine in driving down cases. Or is the consensus that the vaccines are fine, it's just they haven't had the lockdowns that have been a major factor in places like the UK?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,807

    Anyway, its Friday morning so lets set a nice test of legal and moral right and wrong.

    It is only right that an individual should be able to choose which laws apply to them. It is only right that when a complaint is made and an investigation carried out to determine if that individual has broken the strict professional code that directs their behaviour, that the accused is able to discard the findings against them and carry on in role.

    Its only fair. Lawyers get to dismiss professional misconduct convictions. Doctors. Bent Coppers. People who steal from work. So it is an outrage for people to think there is something wrong with the Prime Minister being able to simply dismiss the professional misconduct findings that are presented to him about his behaviour.

    The Prime Minister should be subject to the same courts as the rest of us. If he receives a criminal conviction at a court of law then of course he should resign.

    Anonymous people claiming on social media that he has done something wrong is not a court of law.
    Can the rest of us veto the publication of an official inquiry into ourselves? Or decide the terms of reference into such an inquiry?
    It depends.

    If the inquiry is by the Police and the CPS then the PM can't veto it, can he?
    If you're eg Director of a company and you hire someone to create a report for you and to report to you, then I don't see why you couldn't.
    There are laws on directors and conflicts of interests, including indirect and potential conflicts.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,098

    And while EU countries are upping their game, there remain questions over the motivation for the Commission's demands for UK AstraZeneca supply at the height of the UK pandemic - was it to help the EU, or hinder the UK?:

    8. So naturally good old Blighty had to be whipping boy.

    9. Assuming stocks were split 50/50 EU/UK, the number of vaccines exported to the EU would have been maybe 1.5 - 2 million a week. Not enough to make a significant improvement to the EU rollout. But enough to hinder the UK's rollout significantly.
    Thread:

    https://twitter.com/BarristersHorse/status/1387595778764464131?s=20

    UK made vaccines by AZ have never gone above 7 million doses a month, which was the number in March.

    So 50% for the EU would be around 800k a week tops.


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