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    Pulpstar said:

    Cameron claims the floods are climate change related:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25656426

    Of course they are. The global warming types remind me of Mr. India from Goodness Gracious Me (who claimed everything good originated in India).

    Hot weather - climate change!
    Cold weather - climate change!
    Floods - climate change!
    Drought - climate change!

    Cameron 'suspects'

    What a numpty. What an absolute shower of shit our PM is.
    Great shame he is not listening to his own advisors. The Met Office has made it clear that both the cold weather in N America and the wet and stormy weather here are not related to climate change and are also - whatever the press might like to claim - not related to a weakening Polar Vortex. Neither are unprecedented.

    In fact the Met Office seems to be getting quite exercised by the US keep going on about a Polar Vortex as there is no evidence of it having either weakened or shifted at all.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,528
    Those nice people at Labour have sent me a link to a poll to complete:
    http://action.labour.org.uk/page/s/cost-of-cameron-no-southeast
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cameron claims the floods are climate change related:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25656426

    Of course they are. The global warming types remind me of Mr. India from Goodness Gracious Me (who claimed everything good originated in India).

    Hot weather - climate change!
    Cold weather - climate change!
    Floods - climate change!
    Drought - climate change!

    if you watched PMQs then you would appreciate there is a bit of generous spin on this from the BBC - however your central point is correct - and this winter hasn't been that wet either.
    Has this winter been that wet?

    We've only had December so far, and it has been very wet in most of Scotland, and south-east England, though a bit dry in the east of England.

    Saying that it hasn't been that wet this winter is rather like those people who said the St Jude's Day storm wasn't that windy. I think many people will think it has been quite wet enough this winter, though most of the flooding has been coastal and caused by winds and storm surges, rather than too much rainfall.
    So far it has been nothing special

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/07/is-englands-bad-weather-a-sign-of-climate-change/
    Most of the flooding hasn't been related to rainfall anyway - so they're looking at the wrong data to judge whether it has been unusual. Since it has mainly been related to storm surges one would want to look at statistics on storms.

    I haven't had a look at these statistics so I have no idea whether the number, or strength, of storms so far this winter has been unusual, but one of the global warming predictions is that individual storms will become more intense, because the warmer oceans will provide more energy for storm formation and development.

    Of course, the passage of the storms acts to churn up the oceans and so cool the ocean surface - the mid-Atlantic is now notably cool - and so this makes it less likely that the recent stormy weather will continue all winter.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    As we're on pensions....

    She could of course leave it in there. If its a big, reputable company with a long term commitment to the UK I'd be very tempted to do that.

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    pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    edited January 2014
    As a matter of law the state pension is a "benefit". Entitlement to a category A retirement pension arises under section 44 of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 which is in Part II of the Act headed "Contributory Benefits".

    A more interesting question is the value of the BSP compared to the value of the National Insurance contributions paid over a working life. I have never seen a satisfactory solution to that sum.

    Edited for typo
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    Result on Tim Yeo's fate in South Suffolk to be announced on February 3
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    As we're on pensions....
    My wife has a pension from a previous employer, 18 years service, and she recently asked for a transfer quote, just to see. It says it has a transfer valuation of just over a hundred grand.

    My question is, what can she do with it?
    She can't draw it until 65ish, I think.
    She's 45, so not retiring anytime soon, and works part time, with a company pension. She's probably not going to stay with her current employer for much longer, so doesn't want to transfer it to that.

    She's going to see an advisor, but I'd thought I'd ask for your ideas so we can do some research beforehand.



    Which has a section on this

    http://www.which.co.uk/money/retirement/guides/company-pensions-explained/transferring-your-company-pension/


    Unfortunately, to come up with the best answer you need to know every detail of the current pension to be able to work out whether it was worth transferring out.

    If she isn't wanting to transfer to her current employers pension scheme then putting the money into a Self-Invested Pension Plan would be an option although then you are responsible for your investment decisions. Alternatively she could put it in a more general Personal Pension Plan and while these don't require you to do all the investment work can have high admin charges.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098



    Be very careful - is it a final-salary scheme? If so, then in most cases the transfer value is a very bad deal. Definitely one to take advice on.

    Damn right, last year Herself got a letter from her former employer's pension people. Starting on her 60th birthday she will get a pension of £14k per annum. Considering she only served for 19 years and left 20 years ago, and has not paid a penny in since, we thought that a damn good deal. Don't think taking a transfer value followed by private investment could have produced anything like it.

    The downside is if she pops her clogs before me I will get sod all. Whereas, if I snuff it first she gets half my pension plus various insurances. Once she turns 60 I will be doing all the cooking, tea making etc..
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Around 1998 (very roughly) most of the countries, companies and individuals around the industrialized world started borrowing too much.

    This happened by magic and was nothing to do with the banks dramatically lowering the cost of borrowing.

    Ten years later the banking mafia's latest credit bubble burst - as they *always* do - creating a massive economic depression all round the world which has caused five years of damage so far and is nowhere near over yet.

    The total cost to the public of this entirely unnecessary economic disaster caused entirely by the structural flaws in the bankster business model (combined with human nature) is in the *trillions* and is nowhere near over yet.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101



    Be very careful - is it a final-salary scheme? If so, then in most cases the transfer value is a very bad deal. Definitely one to take advice on.

    Damn right, last year Herself got a letter from her former employer's pension people. Starting on her 60th birthday she will get a pension of £14k per annum. Considering she only served for 19 years and left 20 years ago, and has not paid a penny in since, we thought that a damn good deal. Don't think taking a transfer value followed by private investment could have produced anything like it.

    The downside is if she pops her clogs before me I will get sod all. Whereas, if I snuff it first she gets half my pension plus various insurances. Once she turns 60 I will be doing all the cooking, tea making etc..

    £250,000ish needed pot to get that on DC.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,299
    Jury's decision in the Mark Duggan inquest to be announced at 1530, BBC says.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101

    Jury's decision in the Mark Duggan inquest to be announced at 1530, BBC says.

    Guilty.
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    Patrick said:

    Topping

    The BBC is a left wing think tank and cabal of activists with unparalleled access to propaganda opportunites across multiple media outlets, which obtains its funds with the threat of force from owners of equipment not necessarily related to it and whose objective is to suck out any remaining free speech or original thought from those upon whom it preys.

    Patrick, what do you see as the downside to slaying all left-wingers? Would you prefer it to be done painlessly or as slowly & painfully as possible?

    I have no desire to slay lefties. (Well maybe a little bit!). I just wish they'd F off and stop screwing the world up. And learn some of the lessons of history, economics, common sense, free speech, etc. Left / right attiutdes will always exist. The problem is that we elect the most zealous from each end of the spectrum to govern us and they get to play out their pet theories at our expense. I think we need a written constitution that dramatically reduces the power of the state and of politicians of all stripes to waste our money and dump their stupid effing legislation on us.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    Oops lol I was thinking of Dale Cregan !

    Wrong bod.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited January 2014
    MrJones said:

    The total cost to the public of this entirely unnecessary economic disaster caused entirely by the structural flaws in the bankster business model (combined with human nature) is in the *trillions* and is nowhere near over yet.

    "Bankster" ranks right up there with "ZanuLiarBore" (and variants) and "EUSSR" in my book of inane and irritating expressions which have outlived there sell-by date.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I don't see the need to change terminology. State pensions and other benefits are all unfunded promises that the Government is capable of ratting on. Pensions are well-enough protected in popular opinion without erecting still higher hurdles against any kind of reform of them.
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    he will become an MEP this late spring as he's the top UKIP candidate in East region
    Quincel said:

    So Ladbrokes have just made Patrick O'Flynn from the Express new favourite for 'Next UKIP leader'. What am I missing? Has he made a speech or something?

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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,493

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cameron claims the floods are climate change related:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25656426

    Of course they are. The global warming types remind me of Mr. India from Goodness Gracious Me (who claimed everything good originated in India).

    Hot weather - climate change!
    Cold weather - climate change!
    Floods - climate change!
    Drought - climate change!

    if you watched PMQs then you would appreciate there is a bit of generous spin on this from the BBC - however your central point is correct - and this winter hasn't been that wet either.
    Has this winter been that wet?

    We've only had December so far, and it has been very wet in most of Scotland, and south-east England, though a bit dry in the east of England.

    Saying that it hasn't been that wet this winter is rather like those people who said the St Jude's Day storm wasn't that windy. I think many people will think it has been quite wet enough this winter, though most of the flooding has been coastal and caused by winds and storm surges, rather than too much rainfall.
    So far it has been nothing special

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/07/is-englands-bad-weather-a-sign-of-climate-change/
    Most of the flooding hasn't been related to rainfall anyway - so they're looking at the wrong data to judge whether it has been unusual. Since it has mainly been related to storm surges one would want to look at statistics on storms.

    I haven't had a look at these statistics so I have no idea whether the number, or strength, of storms so far this winter has been unusual, but one of the global warming predictions is that individual storms will become more intense, because the warmer oceans will provide more energy for storm formation and development.

    Of course, the passage of the storms acts to churn up the oceans and so cool the ocean surface - the mid-Atlantic is now notably cool - and so this makes it less likely that the recent stormy weather will continue all winter.
    Given the scale of tides in Britain, the severity of storm-surge-related flooding is to a large extent a matter of luck depending on whether it coincides with a high tide or not, and if so, what the topography of the land is like where it does. The variables are so significant and the occurances are rare enough that I'm not sure any meaningful kind of trend can be created yet.
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    Pulpstar said:

    £250,000ish needed pot to get that on DC.

    A lot more than that if it's got any inflation protection, which most old final-salary schemes would have.

    A £250K pot would only buy you around a £7.5K index-linked annuity:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/pensions/annuities/annuity-best-buy-rates
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,464
    MrJones said:

    Around 1998 (very roughly) most of the countries, companies and individuals around the industrialized world started borrowing too much.

    This happened by magic and was nothing to do with the banks dramatically lowering the cost of borrowing.

    Ten years later the banking mafia's latest credit bubble burst - as they *always* do - creating a massive economic depression all round the world which has caused five years of damage so far and is nowhere near over yet.

    The total cost to the public of this entirely unnecessary economic disaster caused entirely by the structural flaws in the bankster business model (combined with human nature) is in the *trillions* and is nowhere near over yet.

    Yes, but...

    Between 1998 and 2012 (and things will look better this year in most places), we saw private sector debt to GDP fall in Germany and Japan, and only increase very modestly in France and the USA. Only in two places (among the large developed world economies) did private sector debt-to-GDP rise very sharply and to high levels: Spain (where it more than doubled to reach 215% at its its peak), and the UK (where it almost doubled to reach 210%). (Some small countries, like Ireland, Iceland, Cyprus did also have credit booms.)

    (See: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FS.AST.PRVT.GD.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2012+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=desc)

    In almost every country, we have seen private sector deleveraging since 2008. So, even (correctly) assessing there was a problem then, it is worth remembering it is not so much of a problem now. Ireland, Spain and the UK have all made massive strides at reducing private sector indebtedness.

    Government debt levels during most of the early part of the period fell, other than in Japan. So, the UK, the US, etc., all saw debt-to-GDP decrease quite substantially. It was only after the GFC is 2008 that government borrowing went through the roof.

    So, in total: yes, in many countries, the consumers and businesses did become more leveraged between 1998 and 2008. But it was by no means universal, and in most places with the biggest debt problems, we have seen substantial net debt repayment in the last five years.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    he will become an MEP this late spring as he's the top UKIP candidate in East region

    Quincel said:

    So Ladbrokes have just made Patrick O'Flynn from the Express new favourite for 'Next UKIP leader'. What am I missing? Has he made a speech or something?

    I like Patrick O'Flynn but I was disappointed by his Question Time appearance last year. There's a big gap between being a journalist and being a party leader
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101

    Pulpstar said:

    £250,000ish needed pot to get that on DC.

    A lot more than that if it's got any inflation protection, which most old final-salary schemes would have.

    A £250K pot would only buy you around a £7.5K index-linked annuity:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/pensions/annuities/annuity-best-buy-rates
    Yet Neil argues that defined contribution schemes are unaffordable for the public sector ?

    Can you square that circle for me please :)
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    If what the defence are claiming in the Duggan case is true, it'd be almost unbelievable. It's like something involving Vic Mackey and Shane Vendrell out of "The Shield"!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101

    If what the defence are claiming in the Duggan case is true, it'd be almost unbelievable. It's like something involving Vic Mackey and Shane Vendrell out of "The Shield"!

    What are they claiming ?

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,748

    he will become an MEP this late spring as he's the top UKIP candidate in East region

    Quincel said:

    So Ladbrokes have just made Patrick O'Flynn from the Express new favourite for 'Next UKIP leader'. What am I missing? Has he made a speech or something?

    I like Patrick O'Flynn but I was disappointed by his Question Time appearance last year. There's a big gap between being a journalist and being a party leader
    Give the Gove thing a rest, Mike.

    :)
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited January 2014
    All these comments about final salary pension schemes should be mindful of the caveat that if perchance the scheme goes bust, all previous assumptions go out of the window.
    Those interested should google Pension Protection Fund (PPF) and or Financial Assistance Scheme(FAS).
    If its a public sector FPS then I guess its ok as the state is unlikely to go bust....
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    Australia has just enjoyed not only winning the Ashes, but perhaps less happily its hottest ever year. New Zealand had its second hottest. The thing about global warming (man made or not) is that it is global. Just looking at certain parts of the world and declaring that what is happening there proves something does not make sense. I say this as someone who has no idea what the actual situation is.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101

    All these comments about final salary pension schemes should be mindful of the caveat that if perchance the scheme goes bust, all previous assumptions go out of the window.
    Those interested should google Pension Protection Fund (PPF) and or Financial Assistance Scheme(FAS).
    If its a public sector FPS then I guess its ok as the state is unlikely to go bust....

    If its a state sector then buy the PPF/FAS anyway as you'll have a cut and dried mis-selling case ;)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,076
    Incidentally, I tend not to post my blog stuff here, but I've put up links to a quartet of reviews (half for Journey to Altmortis, half for Sir Edric's Temple) just now. So, if you're into high fantasy (Altmortis) or comedy (Sir Edric) why not have a look?

    http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/new-reviews.html
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    Pulpstar said:


    Yet Neil argues that defined contribution schemes are unaffordable for the public sector ?

    Can you square that circle for me please :)

    Actually he's right. The problem is that we shouldn't have started from here: as you switch over, you'd still be paying the final-salary pensions but the contributions coming in would be buying investments rather than (as now) helping towards paying the existing pensioners.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    This country can fuck right off if anything other than Lawfully killed is reached.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101

    Pulpstar said:


    Yet Neil argues that defined contribution schemes are unaffordable for the public sector ?

    Can you square that circle for me please :)

    Actually he's right. The problem is that we shouldn't have started from here: as you switch over, you'd still be paying the final-salary pensions but the contributions coming in would be buying investments rather than (as now) helping towards paying the existing pensioners.
    Surely the best idea for a ponzi scheme is not to errm continue it...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    I reckon open verdict...
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,299
    Pulpstar said:

    This country can fuck right off if anything other than Lawfully killed is reached.

    I wouldn't like to have been on the jury. Ages and ages it's taken.

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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,493

    Pulpstar said:


    Yet Neil argues that defined contribution schemes are unaffordable for the public sector ?

    Can you square that circle for me please :)

    Actually he's right. The problem is that we shouldn't have started from here: as you switch over, you'd still be paying the final-salary pensions but the contributions coming in would be buying investments rather than (as now) helping towards paying the existing pensioners.
    That would give you an asset and an investment return though so would be justifiable to offset it against some increase in borrowing. I think the bigger problem would be the scope for political interference in where the pension pot/s is/are invested.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,299
    The Beeb have got at least 3 reporters there, presumably plus sound men,camera crews etc.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101

    Pulpstar said:

    This country can fuck right off if anything other than Lawfully killed is reached.

    I wouldn't like to have been on the jury. Ages and ages it's taken.

    I heard the jury was split. One of the reasons I get annoyed with the police (See yesterday's thread) when they hassle people is that they need the trust of the British public to effectively work.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101

    Pulpstar said:


    Yet Neil argues that defined contribution schemes are unaffordable for the public sector ?

    Can you square that circle for me please :)

    Actually he's right. The problem is that we shouldn't have started from here: as you switch over, you'd still be paying the final-salary pensions but the contributions coming in would be buying investments rather than (as now) helping towards paying the existing pensioners.
    That would give you an asset and an investment return though so would be justifiable to offset it against some increase in borrowing. I think the bigger problem would be the scope for political interference in where the pension pot/s is/are invested.
    Just track FTSE100...
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,493

    All these comments about final salary pension schemes should be mindful of the caveat that if perchance the scheme goes bust, all previous assumptions go out of the window.
    Those interested should google Pension Protection Fund (PPF) and or Financial Assistance Scheme(FAS).
    If its a public sector FPS then I guess its ok as the state is unlikely to go bust....

    Yes, because there haven't been any examples of states coming close to not being able to meet their obligations recently, have there?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,299
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    This country can fuck right off if anything other than Lawfully killed is reached.

    I wouldn't like to have been on the jury. Ages and ages it's taken.

    I heard the jury was split. One of the reasons I get annoyed with the police (See yesterday's thread) when they hassle people is that they need the trust of the British public to effectively work.

    Quite!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    Sorry it may colour my judgement on this that my late uncle who died 10 years prior to me being born was a PC killed in action.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,299
    Pulpstar said:

    Sorry it may colour my judgement on this that my late uncle who died 10 years prior to me being born was a PC killed in action.


    Sorry to read that. However, I don't think your judgement on this is anything but sound!
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,528
    edited January 2014
    Dugan: unanimous no on the first question: the police did not collect enough evidence before the incident.
    Unaniminous yes on the second question (pro for the police)
    Question 3: he did have a gun with him

    (hopefully no mistakes, typing from live radio)
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,528
    edited January 2014
    Question 4: the jury have said Dugan threw the gun away from him when the police stopped him. Not unanimous.

    Again, from live radio.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    On the key question they conclude on a nine to one basis that Duggan threw the gun before the police confronted him.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,528
    Question 5: most of the jury do not believe he had the gun in his hand when he was shot.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,133
    edited January 2014

    Australia has just enjoyed not only winning the Ashes, but perhaps less happily its hottest ever year. New Zealand had its second hottest. The thing about global warming (man made or not) is that it is global. Just looking at certain parts of the world and declaring that what is happening there proves something does not make sense. I say this as someone who has no idea what the actual situation is.

    Agreed. The big factor in Australia and New Zealand is the extended El Nino/La Nina cycle which is currently bringing the hot weather to Oz.

    That said I would like to see the official figures on Oz temperatures given that just before Christmas much of Southern Australia was having unseasonally cold weather with mid summer snow on the mountains which is extremely unusual.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,299
    Copied from the BBC site
    On question one, did the Met do the best they could have done in the 30 hours leading up to the shooting to react to the intelligence they had on Mark Duggan in the best way? The jury gives a unanimous no.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    God Bless that one person, whoever they are that they were not swayed by the rest.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,528
    Question 6: by an 8 to 2 majority, it was a lawful killing.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    8-2 lawful killing
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101

    Question 6: by an 8 to 2 majority, it was a lawful killing.

    Am I misinterpreting the 'thrown' thingy ?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,299
    Copied from the site again
    Jury says by majority of nine to one that Mark Duggan threw the firearm as soon as his minicab came to a stop and before he faced police.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    God bless our juries.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2014
    Lawful killing.

    I won't plan a night out in London for a while...

    Sky News had the ridiculous scenario of the reporter at the scene being told what was happening by the Anchor in the studio
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Pulpstar said:

    Cameron claims the floods are climate change related:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25656426

    Of course they are. The global warming types remind me of Mr. India from Goodness Gracious Me (who claimed everything good originated in India).

    Hot weather - climate change!
    Cold weather - climate change!
    Floods - climate change!
    Drought - climate change!

    Cameron 'suspects'

    What a numpty. What an absolute shower of shit our PM is.
    Great shame he is not listening to his own advisors. The Met Office has made it clear that both the cold weather in N America and the wet and stormy weather here are not related to climate change and are also - whatever the press might like to claim - not related to a weakening Polar Vortex. Neither are unprecedented.

    In fact the Met Office seems to be getting quite exercised by the US keep going on about a Polar Vortex as there is no evidence of it having either weakened or shifted at all.
    This is the state of the Polar Vortex.

    The elongation along the North America/Eurasia axis is bringing cold air down into North America at present, but sometimes the vortex splits or shifts off the pole entirely, which it hasn't done yet.
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Parts of ESA and JSA are contribution based.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    "Jury says by majority of nine to one that Mark Duggan threw the firearm as soon as his minicab came to a stop and before he faced police."

    I wasn't expecting a lawful killing verdict after that, I must say !
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,299
    edited January 2014
    Off the site again: The jury says Mark Duggan did not have a gun in his hand when he was shot.

    This isn't going to satisfy anyone, family or police.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,528
    Pulpstar said:

    Question 6: by an 8 to 2 majority, it was a lawful killing.

    Am I misinterpreting the 'thrown' thingy ?
    I don't know: the journalist sped through questions 2 and 3. It'd be best to go from official sources on the exact result.

    The result sounds reasonable to me; it must have been very difficult for the jury.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,493
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Yet Neil argues that defined contribution schemes are unaffordable for the public sector ?

    Can you square that circle for me please :)

    Actually he's right. The problem is that we shouldn't have started from here: as you switch over, you'd still be paying the final-salary pensions but the contributions coming in would be buying investments rather than (as now) helping towards paying the existing pensioners.
    That would give you an asset and an investment return though so would be justifiable to offset it against some increase in borrowing. I think the bigger problem would be the scope for political interference in where the pension pot/s is/are invested.
    Just track FTSE100...
    Fine in theory but when there's a big loss-making firm in a marginal constituency lobbying for investment / subsidies you can hear the arguments now.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If the police want to be trusted, they have to stop being disingenuous on things where they can easily be found out. This relatively minor example is just the latest:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-25646092
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,348
    BBC explaining it can be a lawful killing even if he no longer had the gun if police thought he did still have the gun.

    So the fact the majority think he threw away the gun first does not stop it being a lawful killing.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Given the scale of tides in Britain, the severity of storm-surge-related flooding is to a large extent a matter of luck depending on whether it coincides with a high tide or not, and if so, what the topography of the land is like where it does. The variables are so significant and the occurances are rare enough that I'm not sure any meaningful kind of trend can be created yet.

    Yes, that is true. I'm pretty sure there was a big North Sea storm in the last couple of years that exactly coincided with low tide, and so passed off with little notice.

    However, one can assume that the timing of the tides is random relative to the timing of the storms, and so if one looks at the statistics of storms you can say something about what is likely to happen to the statistics of storm surges. Unfortunately, I don't know what the storm statistics would tell us.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2014
    I predict a...

    ...boost in royalties for the Kaiser Chiefs

    (I predict a...

    ...boost in royalties for the Kaiser Chiefs)

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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    I've heard stocks in JJB Sports and Dixons are a-tumbling...

    *innocent face*
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,528
    isam said:

    I predict a...

    ...boost in royalties for the Kaiser Chiefs

    (I predict a...

    ...boost in royalties for the Kaiser Chiefs)

    Wrong time of year for a riot.

    Scum doesn't like getting wet and cold.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "A black life aint worth nothing.."

    Heard in court after the verdict
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    I hope the jury will be OK.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,151
    MikeL said:

    BBC explaining it can be a lawful killing even if he no longer had the gun if police thought he did still have the gun.

    So the fact the majority think he threw away the gun first does not stop it being a lawful killing.

    It can be lawful self-defence for a police officer to open fire if he honestly and reasonably believes that the other person is about to open fire, even if that is not in fact the case.

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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Australia has just enjoyed not only winning the Ashes, but perhaps less happily its hottest ever year. New Zealand had its second hottest. The thing about global warming (man made or not) is that it is global. Just looking at certain parts of the world and declaring that what is happening there proves something does not make sense. I say this as someone who has no idea what the actual situation is.

    You can get an idea by looking at the data. It's all on the web in various places, too numerous for me to detail, and the IPCC FAQs are a good place to start if you are bewildered.
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    The pensioners may have paid in to the system, but they also voted for governments to spend more than it received in tax so they can hardly complain when the cupboard is bare.

    Why should those who were unborn when the promises were made have to pay for benefits they have no chance of getting for themselves when it is their turn?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,299
    As I thought up-thread, this isn't going to satisfy anyone. As Mikel posted, it was legally a lawful killing, since the police thought he (still) had a gun. However, the work leading up to the killing was clearly inadequate; maybe if the police had "done their job properly" all this would never have happened. The Complaints people are looking into it all as a "matter or urgency."
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,528
    Apparently the friends and family are trying to kick down the door to the coroner's office.

    (source: radio 5)

    Class.
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,016
    The extent to which people trust the police's intentions is quite remarkable. They've been proven to have lied on numerous occasions, including after shooting civilians, just people still time and time again will say that the police must have been mistaken and couldn't have acted differently.
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Having read a twitter summary of the Duggan verdict I feel totally comfortable criticising the jury who spent months going over the evidence.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Apparently the friends and family are trying to kick down the door to the coroner's office.''

    Doreen Lawrence's phone must be ringing off the hook....

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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,016
    edited January 2014

    Apparently the friends and family are trying to kick down the door to the coroner's office.

    (source: radio 5)

    Class.

    Apparently the police shot their relative who was unarmed.

    (source: inquest)

    Class.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,151

    As I thought up-thread, this isn't going to satisfy anyone. As Mikel posted, it was legally a lawful killing, since the police thought he (still) had a gun. However, the work leading up to the killing was clearly inadequate; maybe if the police had "done their job properly" all this would never have happened. The Complaints people are looking into it all as a "matter or urgency."

    Plainly, it would have been best if the police had arrested him earlier.

    However, I don't think his family have strong grounds to complain that the police failed to save Duggan from the consequences of his illegally carrying a gun.

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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,151
    Quincel said:

    The extent to which people trust the police's intentions is quite remarkable. They've been proven to have lied on numerous occasions, including after shooting civilians, just people still time and time again will say that the police must have been mistaken and couldn't have acted differently.

    Probably because most of the public don't sympathise with career criminals who carry guns.

    By international standards, it is very rare for people to be killed at the hands of the police in this country.

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    Australia has just enjoyed not only winning the Ashes, but perhaps less happily its hottest ever year. New Zealand had its second hottest. The thing about global warming (man made or not) is that it is global. Just looking at certain parts of the world and declaring that what is happening there proves something does not make sense. I say this as someone who has no idea what the actual situation is.

    You can get an idea by looking at the data. It's all on the web in various places, too numerous for me to detail, and the IPCC FAQs are a good place to start if you are bewildered.
    No, they emphatically are not. If you want a political assessment then go to the IPCC. If you want science then that is the last place you should look.
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,016
    Sean_F said:

    Quincel said:

    The extent to which people trust the police's intentions is quite remarkable. They've been proven to have lied on numerous occasions, including after shooting civilians, just people still time and time again will say that the police must have been mistaken and couldn't have acted differently.

    Probably because most of the public don't sympathise with career criminals who carry guns.

    By international standards, it is very rare for people to be killed at the hands of the police in this country.

    What about De Menezes, or Ian Tomlinson? The rate of deaths isn't what alarms me, it's the deception and lack of accountability that follows.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,528
    Quincel said:

    The extent to which people trust the police's intentions is quite remarkable. They've been proven to have lied on numerous occasions, including after shooting civilians, just people still time and time again will say that the police must have been mistaken and couldn't have acted differently.

    Speaking for myself, I don't automatically trust the 'police' as an organisation, or a force.

    I do have rather large amounts of sympathy for individual officers who have to make critical decisions on the spur of a moment, and who can find themselves in that situation by chance, or by decisions made (mistakenly or otherwise) by their superiors.

    Then those split-second decisions are dissected over a matter of days, weeks or months. It's the devil of a job.

    However, cover-ups sadly occur all too often. They just compound the original incident, as they prevent lessons from being learnt and can make some police feel invincible.

    As I've said before, last March the police in Ely were brilliant when they dealt with me at a time of grief. Not all police are bad; not all are good.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    Banti Singh ‏@Khyberman 6m
    Wonder why no riots over THIS shooting... http://www.thushafund.co.uk/ Maybe because there's no anti-Tory political mileage in it? #Duggan
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,016

    Quincel said:

    The extent to which people trust the police's intentions is quite remarkable. They've been proven to have lied on numerous occasions, including after shooting civilians, just people still time and time again will say that the police must have been mistaken and couldn't have acted differently.

    Speaking for myself, I don't automatically trust the 'police' as an organisation, or a force.

    I do have rather large amounts of sympathy for individual officers who have to make critical decisions on the spur of a moment, and who can find themselves in that situation by chance, or by decisions made (mistakenly or otherwise) by their superiors.

    Then those split-second decisions are dissected over a matter of days, weeks or months. It's the devil of a job.

    However, cover-ups sadly occur all too often. They just compound the original incident, as they prevent lessons from being learnt and can make some police feel invincible.

    As I've said before, last March the police in Ely were brilliant when they dealt with me at a time of grief. Not all police are bad; not all are good.
    Given I realise how I'm coming across in this thread, I'd just like to say I agree with pretty much this sentiment.
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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,548
    I said earlier that I thought the Lib Dem deputy leadership would be uncontested. Oops:
    http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/burnley/10922175.Burnley_MP_Gordon_Birtwistle_puts_his_name_forward_for_Commons/

    While Gordon Birtwhistle is exactly my sort of person and he'd get my vote if I had one, I'd rank him as outsider by some distance, Lorely Burt should have comfortably enough support.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,585
    Quincel said:

    Sean_F said:

    Quincel said:

    The extent to which people trust the police's intentions is quite remarkable. They've been proven to have lied on numerous occasions, including after shooting civilians, just people still time and time again will say that the police must have been mistaken and couldn't have acted differently.

    Probably because most of the public don't sympathise with career criminals who carry guns.

    By international standards, it is very rare for people to be killed at the hands of the police in this country.

    What about De Menezes, or Ian Tomlinson? The rate of deaths isn't what alarms me, it's the deception and lack of accountability that follows.
    You should have seen the reaction of deaf people to the De Menezes affair. They were horrified at the thought that they could be shot by the Met just for not hearing an armed policeman shout.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    Quincel said:

    Sean_F said:

    Quincel said:

    The extent to which people trust the police's intentions is quite remarkable. They've been proven to have lied on numerous occasions, including after shooting civilians, just people still time and time again will say that the police must have been mistaken and couldn't have acted differently.

    Probably because most of the public don't sympathise with career criminals who carry guns.

    By international standards, it is very rare for people to be killed at the hands of the police in this country.

    What about De Menezes, or Ian Tomlinson? The rate of deaths isn't what alarms me, it's the deception and lack of accountability that follows.
    De Menezes case is VERY different to this one. He was a good man, an innocent man. The police fucked up there.

    They fucked up here too, but it is chalk and cheese De Menezes and Duggan's cases.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Apparently the friends and family are trying to kick down the door to the coroner's office.

    (source: radio 5)

    Class.

    Thus proving why the police were rightly twitchy.
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    Depends on where in the world you are looking. The Atlantic hurricanes are currently running well below average for both number and intensity and have done for several years. Not seen similar data yet on North Atlantic storms. From experience in operations I have not really noticed a huge change over the last 25 years. The largest North Atlantic/ North Sea storm in recent memory is still the Christmas 1990 storm that nearly killed my wife on the Sedco 701.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    Jean Charles de Menezes inquest records open verdict
    • Jury rejects police claim that Brazilian was lawfully killed
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Quincel said:

    Sean_F said:

    Quincel said:

    The extent to which people trust the police's intentions is quite remarkable. They've been proven to have lied on numerous occasions, including after shooting civilians, just people still time and time again will say that the police must have been mistaken and couldn't have acted differently.

    Probably because most of the public don't sympathise with career criminals who carry guns.

    By international standards, it is very rare for people to be killed at the hands of the police in this country.

    What about De Menezes, or Ian Tomlinson? The rate of deaths isn't what alarms me, it's the deception and lack of accountability that follows.
    They weren't career criminals and they didn't carry guns
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Mother claiming son was "executed"....
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,016
    My point isn't that De Menezes is the same as Duggan. My point is that I'm eternally surprised at how trust in the police doesn't seem to have been significantly eroded by them whitewashing and denying everything from those cases. The communities who never trusted them (like Duggan's friends and family) still don't, but the 'chattering classes' seem to forever believe that it is just a few bad apples, no matter how long attempted cover-ups go on for. Even Plebgate hasn't made much of a dent.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    RodCrosby said:

    Mother claiming son was "executed"....

    I assume he carried his gun round with him as a sentimental keepsake ?

    Was he planning to feed homeless children with it ?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,101
    Quincel said:

    My point isn't that De Menezes is the same as Duggan. My point is that I'm eternally surprised at how trust in the police doesn't seem to have been significantly eroded by them whitewashing and denying everything from those cases. The communities who never trusted them (like Duggan's friends and family) still don't, but the 'chattering classes' seem to forever believe that it is just a few bad apples, no matter how long attempted cover-ups go on for. Even Plebgate hasn't made much of a dent.

    That's why plebgate got me so riled when it turned out the police had been less than forthright with the truth.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,528
    Pulpstar said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Mother claiming son was "executed"....

    I assume he carried his gun round with him as a sentimental keepsake ?

    Was he planning to feed homeless children with it ?
    Perhaps he'd read some of Tim's missives, and decided to get rid of the cats prowling Tottenham at night, but decided to give them a chance by having only one bullet and wrapping a sock around the gun ...

    It's really a devilish situation. The final question has to be whether anything can be learnt to prevent such a thing happening again, without dramatically increasing the risk injury or death to the police? Can procedures be altered?

    Perhaps not, without better technology.
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    OGH : "People in receipt of state pensions have paid for it over the years – they are not on benefits"

    Wrong - People in receipt of a State Pension have not PAID for it, they have merely CONTRIBUTED towards it, in actual fact to only a very modest extent.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014
    The question we need to answer in the Duggan inquest is not whether we trust the Police but whether we trust the jury and respect its decision.

    I doubt whether Duggan's family would have been so prepared to criticise the jury and its decision had the verdict been one of unlawful killing.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    RodCrosby said:

    Mother claiming son was "executed"....

    Laurie Penny is claiming "murdered". I wouldn't trust the police to judge a knobbly knees contest, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over what happened to Mark Duggan.
This discussion has been closed.