I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
We don't "need" to align our SPS with the EU.
It would be entirely possible to diverge with the EU but to recognise each others's SPS as "equivalent" and remove the need for checks etc . That may affect the "integrity" of the Single Market but so be it, we would be making the same compromise in return. That is a genuine compromise, not chaining one party to another like a slave.
Mate, you keep dancing on this same pinhead. If our standards are "equivalent" then it means they are close enough to the required standard. Which they are now. And will be in the future as we declare that standards will only ever be increased. So we could do this as you suggest, but it is declaring that our standards will different *but directly comparable* to EU ones. Which you won't accept.
We can't wildly diverge our standards and recognise an equivalence which isn't there.
Yes we can. We can recognise our standards as currently equivalent but not commit to alignment, with a dispute system if divergence occurs in the future.
No commitments then, and if divergence leads to issues in the future you cross that bridge when you get there. If it doesn't, there's no issue.
We can do whatever we want - the issue is so can the EU and because we won't agree to the EU's terms the EU are imposing the WTO rules they impose on imports from all third party countries.
Indeed.
So our choice is to remove all Irish Sea border checks and then let the EU come up with a solution. If they impose checks on the Irish land border that's their choice. If they don't, then the problem is solved - NI is in UK and NI has open border with the EU.
Either way we do nothing and let the EU act or blink.
I don't think we have any checks on our side of the Irish sea. But how do you propose to remove the checks in Dublin or (for that matter) Belfast.
Belfast is part of the UK, it is on our side of the Irish sea. We simply stop doing any checks whatsoever in Belfast.
If the Republic wants to do checks in Dublin that's their prerogative, let them do that and own the consequences.
Extraordinary cakeism!
Now everyone knew an ERG Brexit would have ramifications for the GFA.
Now, as a former Remainer I accept Richard Tyndall's argument that Brexit was all about the "sovereignty" and we would have to live with any collateral consequences. He accepts that for "sovereignty" to be regained bad things would happen and it was a price worth paying
Your (and Boris Johnson's) argument is an out and out lie. You claim we regained our mystical "sovereignty", and there are no consequences, only those imposed on a Sovereign England by foreigners interfering with England's sovereignty.
Of course its cakeism!
So is the EU's notion that they can have peace in NI and their definition of "integrity of the Single Market". That is cakeism and it has failed, its their problem to fix.
If we refuse to do any checks in Belfast then I accept our decisions may have consequences in our relations with them, that's up to them to impose if they choose to do so. If they choose to erect border posts along the Irish land border that's their choice, we can't stop them doing that if they choose to do so. I don't think they will though, do you?
In my job - I will tell people that their decision is likely to result in an issue and highlight how to avoid or mitigate the issue.
It is, however, not my job to fix an issue their decision created and nor is it the EUs...
The UK has nothing to fix. We don't want a sea border or a land border, so we say we will not operate either.
If the EU reciprocate, problem solved. If they don't, they need to come up with a fix.
What is there for us to fix?
So the UK has created a problem in Northern Ireland - why should the EU fix it?
Well for one the death threats by credible terrorist groups against an EU leader. However more broadly, no-one is suggesting that the EU fixes anything, indeed the best think it could do it continue not to care.
Exactly. We have created a problem and the EU are correctly going to leave us to fix it
The only problem the UK / Boris has is that he can't fix it without compromising on something that he won't / can't compromise on.
Cool. Abolish Belfast checks.
Then its fixed. Life goes on.
Glad we can be agreed. 👍
How do you do that then given that we are allowing the EU to do them?
Its our territory, our decision. We invoke Article 16 and cease to allow the EU to do them.
If they wish to continue doing them, they can do them in their territory. They don't get a say.
PB continues to be obsessed with Scotland, while the PM's lies come home to roost in Northern Ireland.
We'll we're waiting for the Devil's Trifecta.
Indyref2, a border poll in NI, and I'm working out what the third one in this awful trifecta will be.
No 3. ART Davies becomes FM in Wales ensuring demands for Welsh Independence exceed 50% before the end of May.
If RT Davies becomes FM it will be because he is the most successful Welsh Tory leader ever and a humiliating result for Labour and Plaid, Wales voted for Brexit and it would cement Wales in Union with England even further.
It would also almost certainly require the Tories to be over 40% in Wales
That would indeed be true to just before the point where you write "cement Wales in Union with England even further". Do you think that blithering clown would do anything other than make the Conservatives unelectable in Wales for the remainder of the Millenium? And if Llafur are dead in the water, where does that lead us? PC!
If the Tories are over 40% (which they would need to be to form a deal with Abolish which is the only way RT becomes FM), then RT would likely scrap the Senedd anyway with Abolish and Wales would return to full union with England. RT would clearly not be unelectable in Wales, the opposite, he would be the most successful Tory leader in Wales ever if he got over 40%.
RT would get rewarded with a safe seat at Westminster then after
...and as such my anticipation of a surge in Welsh independence post FM RT, is reality.
It isn't, if the Tories get over 40% and Abolish get 10%+ (which is the only way RT becomes FM), then RT would clearly have a mandate to abolish the Senedd.
Wales would return to just being part of Westminster and Welsh voters would have voted for that
Of course he would not
He is not standing on a mandate for that and it seems only you can come up with a bizarre response that would see the end of all conservatives and their mps in Wales
You have an incredibly insane attitude to both Scotland and now Wales
My only consolation is that at least I have found a conservative even more stupid that Andrew RT Davies and that says it all
RT has refused to rule out a post election deal with Abolish the Assembly if they had the numbers together for a Senedd majority, remember 49% of Welsh voters even voted against having an Assembly in 1997
The remarkable fact about the Welsh Tories is that EASILY their most capable, sympathetic and personable Member of the Senedd has been deselected for "pro-devolution views".
I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
We don't "need" to align our SPS with the EU.
It would be entirely possible to diverge with the EU but to recognise each others's SPS as "equivalent" and remove the need for checks etc . That may affect the "integrity" of the Single Market but so be it, we would be making the same compromise in return. That is a genuine compromise, not chaining one party to another like a slave.
Mate, you keep dancing on this same pinhead. If our standards are "equivalent" then it means they are close enough to the required standard. Which they are now. And will be in the future as we declare that standards will only ever be increased. So we could do this as you suggest, but it is declaring that our standards will different *but directly comparable* to EU ones. Which you won't accept.
We can't wildly diverge our standards and recognise an equivalence which isn't there.
Yes we can. We can recognise our standards as currently equivalent but not commit to alignment, with a dispute system if divergence occurs in the future.
No commitments then, and if divergence leads to issues in the future you cross that bridge when you get there. If it doesn't, there's no issue.
We can do whatever we want - the issue is so can the EU and because we won't agree to the EU's terms the EU are imposing the WTO rules they impose on imports from all third party countries.
Indeed.
So our choice is to remove all Irish Sea border checks and then let the EU come up with a solution. If they impose checks on the Irish land border that's their choice. If they don't, then the problem is solved - NI is in UK and NI has open border with the EU.
Either way we do nothing and let the EU act or blink.
I don't think we have any checks on our side of the Irish sea. But how do you propose to remove the checks in Dublin or (for that matter) Belfast.
Belfast is part of the UK, it is on our side of the Irish sea. We simply stop doing any checks whatsoever in Belfast.
If the Republic wants to do checks in Dublin that's their prerogative, let them do that and own the consequences.
Extraordinary cakeism!
Now everyone knew an ERG Brexit would have ramifications for the GFA.
Now, as a former Remainer I accept Richard Tyndall's argument that Brexit was all about the "sovereignty" and we would have to live with any collateral consequences. He accepts that for "sovereignty" to be regained bad things would happen and it was a price worth paying
Your (and Boris Johnson's) argument is an out and out lie. You claim we regained our mystical "sovereignty", and there are no consequences, only those imposed on a Sovereign England by foreigners interfering with England's sovereignty.
Of course its cakeism!
So is the EU's notion that they can have peace in NI and their definition of "integrity of the Single Market". That is cakeism and it has failed, its their problem to fix.
If we refuse to do any checks in Belfast then I accept our decisions may have consequences in our relations with them, that's up to them to impose if they choose to do so. If they choose to erect border posts along the Irish land border that's their choice, we can't stop them doing that if they choose to do so. I don't think they will though, do you?
In my job - I will tell people that their decision is likely to result in an issue and highlight how to avoid or mitigate the issue.
It is, however, not my job to fix an issue their decision created and nor is it the EUs...
The UK has nothing to fix. We don't want a sea border or a land border, so we say we will not operate either.
If the EU reciprocate, problem solved. If they don't, they need to come up with a fix.
What is there for us to fix?
So the UK has created a problem in Northern Ireland - why should the EU fix it?
Because it doesn't matter who created the problem. If they want it fixing, they need to fix it. That's realpolitik.
If we simply say "oh well, no border anywhere, life goes on" and diverge and do our own thing then what are they going to do about it? If nothing because its not their problem, then its not ours either. If they do something then they're acknowledging they need to be part of the solution.
The EU doesn't want to fix it - it's not in their interest to.
Going back to if this was a former customer of mine, I would be sitting back and watching the disaster unfold. As that would ensure future companies would have an example to ensure they didn't make the same mistake (yes it's cruel but there are only so many hours in a week).
How many other EU nations have an issue like NI?
Anyway that demonstrates why the UK play needs to be to get rid of GB-NI checks, it forces the ball into the EU's court. Either they blow it all up (moving NI back into the UK's customs territory, with a hard border on Ireland), or accept a small fudge of e-borders between GB-NI and NI-RoI.
I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
We don't "need" to align our SPS with the EU.
It would be entirely possible to diverge with the EU but to recognise each others's SPS as "equivalent" and remove the need for checks etc . That may affect the "integrity" of the Single Market but so be it, we would be making the same compromise in return. That is a genuine compromise, not chaining one party to another like a slave.
Mate, you keep dancing on this same pinhead. If our standards are "equivalent" then it means they are close enough to the required standard. Which they are now. And will be in the future as we declare that standards will only ever be increased. So we could do this as you suggest, but it is declaring that our standards will different *but directly comparable* to EU ones. Which you won't accept.
We can't wildly diverge our standards and recognise an equivalence which isn't there.
Yes we can. We can recognise our standards as currently equivalent but not commit to alignment, with a dispute system if divergence occurs in the future.
No commitments then, and if divergence leads to issues in the future you cross that bridge when you get there. If it doesn't, there's no issue.
We can do whatever we want - the issue is so can the EU and because we won't agree to the EU's terms the EU are imposing the WTO rules they impose on imports from all third party countries.
Indeed.
So our choice is to remove all Irish Sea border checks and then let the EU come up with a solution. If they impose checks on the Irish land border that's their choice. If they don't, then the problem is solved - NI is in UK and NI has open border with the EU.
Either way we do nothing and let the EU act or blink.
I don't think we have any checks on our side of the Irish sea. But how do you propose to remove the checks in Dublin or (for that matter) Belfast.
Belfast is part of the UK, it is on our side of the Irish sea. We simply stop doing any checks whatsoever in Belfast.
If the Republic wants to do checks in Dublin that's their prerogative, let them do that and own the consequences.
Extraordinary cakeism!
Now everyone knew an ERG Brexit would have ramifications for the GFA.
Now, as a former Remainer I accept Richard Tyndall's argument that Brexit was all about the "sovereignty" and we would have to live with any collateral consequences. He accepts that for "sovereignty" to be regained bad things would happen and it was a price worth paying
Your (and Boris Johnson's) argument is an out and out lie. You claim we regained our mystical "sovereignty", and there are no consequences, only those imposed on a Sovereign England by foreigners interfering with England's sovereignty.
Of course its cakeism!
So is the EU's notion that they can have peace in NI and their definition of "integrity of the Single Market". That is cakeism and it has failed, its their problem to fix.
If we refuse to do any checks in Belfast then I accept our decisions may have consequences in our relations with them, that's up to them to impose if they choose to do so. If they choose to erect border posts along the Irish land border that's their choice, we can't stop them doing that if they choose to do so. I don't think they will though, do you?
In my job - I will tell people that their decision is likely to result in an issue and highlight how to avoid or mitigate the issue.
It is, however, not my job to fix an issue their decision created and nor is it the EUs...
The UK has nothing to fix. We don't want a sea border or a land border, so we say we will not operate either.
If the EU reciprocate, problem solved. If they don't, they need to come up with a fix.
What is there for us to fix?
So the UK has created a problem in Northern Ireland - why should the EU fix it?
Well for one the death threats by credible terrorist groups against an EU leader. However more broadly, no-one is suggesting that the EU fixes anything, indeed the best think it could do it continue not to care.
Exactly. We have created a problem and the EU are correctly going to leave us to fix it
The only problem the UK / Boris has is that he can't fix it without compromising on something that he won't / can't compromise on.
Cool. Abolish Belfast checks.
Then its fixed. Life goes on.
Glad we can be agreed. 👍
How do you do that then given that we are allowing the EU to do them? I await your solution.
I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
We don't "need" to align our SPS with the EU.
It would be entirely possible to diverge with the EU but to recognise each others's SPS as "equivalent" and remove the need for checks etc . That may affect the "integrity" of the Single Market but so be it, we would be making the same compromise in return. That is a genuine compromise, not chaining one party to another like a slave.
Mate, you keep dancing on this same pinhead. If our standards are "equivalent" then it means they are close enough to the required standard. Which they are now. And will be in the future as we declare that standards will only ever be increased. So we could do this as you suggest, but it is declaring that our standards will different *but directly comparable* to EU ones. Which you won't accept.
We can't wildly diverge our standards and recognise an equivalence which isn't there.
Yes we can. We can recognise our standards as currently equivalent but not commit to alignment, with a dispute system if divergence occurs in the future.
No commitments then, and if divergence leads to issues in the future you cross that bridge when you get there. If it doesn't, there's no issue.
We can do whatever we want - the issue is so can the EU and because we won't agree to the EU's terms the EU are imposing the WTO rules they impose on imports from all third party countries.
Indeed.
So our choice is to remove all Irish Sea border checks and then let the EU come up with a solution. If they impose checks on the Irish land border that's their choice. If they don't, then the problem is solved - NI is in UK and NI has open border with the EU.
Either way we do nothing and let the EU act or blink.
I don't think we have any checks on our side of the Irish sea. But how do you propose to remove the checks in Dublin or (for that matter) Belfast.
Belfast is part of the UK, it is on our side of the Irish sea. We simply stop doing any checks whatsoever in Belfast.
If the Republic wants to do checks in Dublin that's their prerogative, let them do that and own the consequences.
Extraordinary cakeism!
Now everyone knew an ERG Brexit would have ramifications for the GFA.
Now, as a former Remainer I accept Richard Tyndall's argument that Brexit was all about the "sovereignty" and we would have to live with any collateral consequences. He accepts that for "sovereignty" to be regained bad things would happen and it was a price worth paying
Your (and Boris Johnson's) argument is an out and out lie. You claim we regained our mystical "sovereignty", and there are no consequences, only those imposed on a Sovereign England by foreigners interfering with England's sovereignty.
Of course its cakeism!
So is the EU's notion that they can have peace in NI and their definition of "integrity of the Single Market". That is cakeism and it has failed, its their problem to fix.
If we refuse to do any checks in Belfast then I accept our decisions may have consequences in our relations with them, that's up to them to impose if they choose to do so. If they choose to erect border posts along the Irish land border that's their choice, we can't stop them doing that if they choose to do so. I don't think they will though, do you?
In my job - I will tell people that their decision is likely to result in an issue and highlight how to avoid or mitigate the issue.
It is, however, not my job to fix an issue their decision created and nor is it the EUs...
The UK has nothing to fix. We don't want a sea border or a land border, so we say we will not operate either.
If the EU reciprocate, problem solved. If they don't, they need to come up with a fix.
What is there for us to fix?
So the UK has created a problem in Northern Ireland - why should the EU fix it?
Because it doesn't matter who created the problem. If they want it fixing, they need to fix it. That's realpolitik.
If we simply say "oh well, no border anywhere, life goes on" and diverge and do our own thing then what are they going to do about it? If nothing because its not their problem, then its not ours either. If they do something then they're acknowledging they need to be part of the solution.
The EU doesn't want to fix it - it's not in their interest to.
Going back to if this was a former customer of mine, I would be sitting back and watching the disaster unfold. As that would ensure future companies would have an example to ensure they didn't make the same mistake (yes it's cruel but there are only so many hours in a week).
How many other EU nations have an issue like NI?
Anyway that demonstrates why the UK play needs to be to get rid of GB-NI checks, it forces the ball into the EU's court. Either they blow it all up (moving NI back into the UK's customs territory, with a hard border on Ireland), or accept a small fudge of e-borders between GB-NI and NI-RoI.
Precisely!
This was always the end-game and Boris has played this game of chess brilliantly.
I agree with you on the needed outcome.
I'm not sure that I could disagree with you more about Johnson's chess playing ability.
I think it is very likely that Labour will beat the Tories this time out. As a Unionist I am much more interested in the overall situation between the groupings than how the vote is divided within them. I wish Sarwar every success in regaining votes and hopefully seats in Glasgow.
Douglas Ross is proving a bit rubbish, I notice SCons have put Ruth Davidson front and centre recently in this campaign.
A wise move.
I said at the time that Ross attacking Nippie on grounds of honesty and propriety was ludicrous. Now that she has been cleared and is rock solid in place the Tory attack appears even sillier as it fades into the background. That they have been reduced to sticking Baroness Chickenrun on their leaflets just makes it funnier.
He doesnt need to, the vicar of Bath is on the case accusing her of trousering £600k. More mud and some of it will stick.
She hasn't been cleared, RP is deliberately misrepresenting the facts to suit his (bizarrely) favourable to the SNP schtick. I expect this to last a relatively short period into his residence in Scotland, where he'll gradually realise what the SNP are actually all about.
She *has* been cleared politically. Thats the conclusion of the *cough* independent legal report. The Tories totally overplayed their hand, leaked claims that were disproven in the legal findings, and now want people to vote for them not the SNP on the grounds of trust and propriety. It was a classic clusterfuck tactic which has spectacularly backfired. Whatever smoke is still billowing about (and there is plenty of smoke) is being wafted away as partisan.
As for me being "bizarrely favourable" I am just saying what I see. I am (or will be once the snow clears) campaigning for the LibDems so I have no truck for Nippie. But it is what it is. She will win a majority and the Tories are heading to lose seats.
No. The Committee investigating the handling of the Salmond case found that she had indeed misled Parliament - a resigning matter. This is what was leaked - there is no evidence that it was leaked by the Tories on the committee - the more compelling theory is that it was leaked by the SNP, in order to 'get it out of the way' in the news agenda so that Sturgeon could claim that the other report was the 'final word', which is exactly what happened. Even the report that did 'clear' Sturgeon acknowledged that redactions to evidence made it impossible to demonstrate that she had *not* broken the Ministerial code. Sturgeon is an extremely savvy campaigner and politician, and that must be admired, but let's not confuse getting away with the swag with being innocent of the crime.
So to be clear, the Hamilton report said she did not break the Ministerial Code and the Committee report deferred to the Hamilton report on that matter.
I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
We don't "need" to align our SPS with the EU.
It would be entirely possible to diverge with the EU but to recognise each others's SPS as "equivalent" and remove the need for checks etc . That may affect the "integrity" of the Single Market but so be it, we would be making the same compromise in return. That is a genuine compromise, not chaining one party to another like a slave.
Mate, you keep dancing on this same pinhead. If our standards are "equivalent" then it means they are close enough to the required standard. Which they are now. And will be in the future as we declare that standards will only ever be increased. So we could do this as you suggest, but it is declaring that our standards will different *but directly comparable* to EU ones. Which you won't accept.
We can't wildly diverge our standards and recognise an equivalence which isn't there.
Yes we can. We can recognise our standards as currently equivalent but not commit to alignment, with a dispute system if divergence occurs in the future.
No commitments then, and if divergence leads to issues in the future you cross that bridge when you get there. If it doesn't, there's no issue.
We can do whatever we want - the issue is so can the EU and because we won't agree to the EU's terms the EU are imposing the WTO rules they impose on imports from all third party countries.
Indeed.
So our choice is to remove all Irish Sea border checks and then let the EU come up with a solution. If they impose checks on the Irish land border that's their choice. If they don't, then the problem is solved - NI is in UK and NI has open border with the EU.
Either way we do nothing and let the EU act or blink.
I don't think we have any checks on our side of the Irish sea. But how do you propose to remove the checks in Dublin or (for that matter) Belfast.
Belfast is part of the UK, it is on our side of the Irish sea. We simply stop doing any checks whatsoever in Belfast.
If the Republic wants to do checks in Dublin that's their prerogative, let them do that and own the consequences.
Extraordinary cakeism!
Now everyone knew an ERG Brexit would have ramifications for the GFA.
Now, as a former Remainer I accept Richard Tyndall's argument that Brexit was all about the "sovereignty" and we would have to live with any collateral consequences. He accepts that for "sovereignty" to be regained bad things would happen and it was a price worth paying
Your (and Boris Johnson's) argument is an out and out lie. You claim we regained our mystical "sovereignty", and there are no consequences, only those imposed on a Sovereign England by foreigners interfering with England's sovereignty.
Of course its cakeism!
So is the EU's notion that they can have peace in NI and their definition of "integrity of the Single Market". That is cakeism and it has failed, its their problem to fix.
If we refuse to do any checks in Belfast then I accept our decisions may have consequences in our relations with them, that's up to them to impose if they choose to do so. If they choose to erect border posts along the Irish land border that's their choice, we can't stop them doing that if they choose to do so. I don't think they will though, do you?
In my job - I will tell people that their decision is likely to result in an issue and highlight how to avoid or mitigate the issue.
It is, however, not my job to fix an issue their decision created and nor is it the EUs...
The UK has nothing to fix. We don't want a sea border or a land border, so we say we will not operate either.
If the EU reciprocate, problem solved. If they don't, they need to come up with a fix.
What is there for us to fix?
So the UK has created a problem in Northern Ireland - why should the EU fix it?
Because it doesn't matter who created the problem. If they want it fixing, they need to fix it. That's realpolitik.
If we simply say "oh well, no border anywhere, life goes on" and diverge and do our own thing then what are they going to do about it? If nothing because its not their problem, then its not ours either. If they do something then they're acknowledging they need to be part of the solution.
The EU doesn't want to fix it - it's not in their interest to.
Going back to if this was a former customer of mine, I would be sitting back and watching the disaster unfold. As that would ensure future companies would have an example to ensure they didn't make the same mistake (yes it's cruel but there are only so many hours in a week).
How many other EU nations have an issue like NI?
Anyway that demonstrates why the UK play needs to be to get rid of GB-NI checks, it forces the ball into the EU's court. Either they blow it all up (moving NI back into the UK's customs territory, with a hard border on Ireland), or accept a small fudge of e-borders between GB-NI and NI-RoI.
Again how do you get rid of those checks?
By not doing them. We're in charge.
Legally we can invoke A16 and unilaterally "fix" the checks. Under no circumstances should we admit to breaking the Protocol or the law, we'll say we're doing "technical fixes for security purposes" and move on. But we do so unilaterally, unless or until the EU wishes to get their hands dirty and get involved.
If its on the UK to fix it we can fix it however we choose. If they're not getting involved in the fix, they don't get a choice or a say in how we fix it, so we maximise our own self-interest.
I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
We don't "need" to align our SPS with the EU.
It would be entirely possible to diverge with the EU but to recognise each others's SPS as "equivalent" and remove the need for checks etc . That may affect the "integrity" of the Single Market but so be it, we would be making the same compromise in return. That is a genuine compromise, not chaining one party to another like a slave.
Mate, you keep dancing on this same pinhead. If our standards are "equivalent" then it means they are close enough to the required standard. Which they are now. And will be in the future as we declare that standards will only ever be increased. So we could do this as you suggest, but it is declaring that our standards will different *but directly comparable* to EU ones. Which you won't accept.
We can't wildly diverge our standards and recognise an equivalence which isn't there.
Yes we can. We can recognise our standards as currently equivalent but not commit to alignment, with a dispute system if divergence occurs in the future.
No commitments then, and if divergence leads to issues in the future you cross that bridge when you get there. If it doesn't, there's no issue.
We can do whatever we want - the issue is so can the EU and because we won't agree to the EU's terms the EU are imposing the WTO rules they impose on imports from all third party countries.
Indeed.
So our choice is to remove all Irish Sea border checks and then let the EU come up with a solution. If they impose checks on the Irish land border that's their choice. If they don't, then the problem is solved - NI is in UK and NI has open border with the EU.
Either way we do nothing and let the EU act or blink.
I don't think we have any checks on our side of the Irish sea. But how do you propose to remove the checks in Dublin or (for that matter) Belfast.
Belfast is part of the UK, it is on our side of the Irish sea. We simply stop doing any checks whatsoever in Belfast.
If the Republic wants to do checks in Dublin that's their prerogative, let them do that and own the consequences.
Extraordinary cakeism!
Now everyone knew an ERG Brexit would have ramifications for the GFA.
Now, as a former Remainer I accept Richard Tyndall's argument that Brexit was all about the "sovereignty" and we would have to live with any collateral consequences. He accepts that for "sovereignty" to be regained bad things would happen and it was a price worth paying
Your (and Boris Johnson's) argument is an out and out lie. You claim we regained our mystical "sovereignty", and there are no consequences, only those imposed on a Sovereign England by foreigners interfering with England's sovereignty.
Of course its cakeism!
So is the EU's notion that they can have peace in NI and their definition of "integrity of the Single Market". That is cakeism and it has failed, its their problem to fix.
If we refuse to do any checks in Belfast then I accept our decisions may have consequences in our relations with them, that's up to them to impose if they choose to do so. If they choose to erect border posts along the Irish land border that's their choice, we can't stop them doing that if they choose to do so. I don't think they will though, do you?
In my job - I will tell people that their decision is likely to result in an issue and highlight how to avoid or mitigate the issue.
It is, however, not my job to fix an issue their decision created and nor is it the EUs...
The UK has nothing to fix. We don't want a sea border or a land border, so we say we will not operate either.
If the EU reciprocate, problem solved. If they don't, they need to come up with a fix.
What is there for us to fix?
So the UK has created a problem in Northern Ireland - why should the EU fix it?
Because it doesn't matter who created the problem. If they want it fixing, they need to fix it. That's realpolitik.
If we simply say "oh well, no border anywhere, life goes on" and diverge and do our own thing then what are they going to do about it? If nothing because its not their problem, then its not ours either. If they do something then they're acknowledging they need to be part of the solution.
The EU doesn't want to fix it - it's not in their interest to.
Going back to if this was a former customer of mine, I would be sitting back and watching the disaster unfold. As that would ensure future companies would have an example to ensure they didn't make the same mistake (yes it's cruel but there are only so many hours in a week).
How many other EU nations have an issue like NI?
Anyway that demonstrates why the UK play needs to be to get rid of GB-NI checks, it forces the ball into the EU's court. Either they blow it all up (moving NI back into the UK's customs territory, with a hard border on Ireland), or accept a small fudge of e-borders between GB-NI and NI-RoI.
Precisely!
This was always the end-game and Boris has played this game of chess brilliantly.
I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
We don't "need" to align our SPS with the EU.
It would be entirely possible to diverge with the EU but to recognise each others's SPS as "equivalent" and remove the need for checks etc . That may affect the "integrity" of the Single Market but so be it, we would be making the same compromise in return. That is a genuine compromise, not chaining one party to another like a slave.
Mate, you keep dancing on this same pinhead. If our standards are "equivalent" then it means they are close enough to the required standard. Which they are now. And will be in the future as we declare that standards will only ever be increased. So we could do this as you suggest, but it is declaring that our standards will different *but directly comparable* to EU ones. Which you won't accept.
We can't wildly diverge our standards and recognise an equivalence which isn't there.
Yes we can. We can recognise our standards as currently equivalent but not commit to alignment, with a dispute system if divergence occurs in the future.
No commitments then, and if divergence leads to issues in the future you cross that bridge when you get there. If it doesn't, there's no issue.
We can do whatever we want - the issue is so can the EU and because we won't agree to the EU's terms the EU are imposing the WTO rules they impose on imports from all third party countries.
Indeed.
So our choice is to remove all Irish Sea border checks and then let the EU come up with a solution. If they impose checks on the Irish land border that's their choice. If they don't, then the problem is solved - NI is in UK and NI has open border with the EU.
Either way we do nothing and let the EU act or blink.
I don't think we have any checks on our side of the Irish sea. But how do you propose to remove the checks in Dublin or (for that matter) Belfast.
Belfast is part of the UK, it is on our side of the Irish sea. We simply stop doing any checks whatsoever in Belfast.
If the Republic wants to do checks in Dublin that's their prerogative, let them do that and own the consequences.
Extraordinary cakeism!
Now everyone knew an ERG Brexit would have ramifications for the GFA.
Now, as a former Remainer I accept Richard Tyndall's argument that Brexit was all about the "sovereignty" and we would have to live with any collateral consequences. He accepts that for "sovereignty" to be regained bad things would happen and it was a price worth paying
Your (and Boris Johnson's) argument is an out and out lie. You claim we regained our mystical "sovereignty", and there are no consequences, only those imposed on a Sovereign England by foreigners interfering with England's sovereignty.
Of course its cakeism!
So is the EU's notion that they can have peace in NI and their definition of "integrity of the Single Market". That is cakeism and it has failed, its their problem to fix.
If we refuse to do any checks in Belfast then I accept our decisions may have consequences in our relations with them, that's up to them to impose if they choose to do so. If they choose to erect border posts along the Irish land border that's their choice, we can't stop them doing that if they choose to do so. I don't think they will though, do you?
In my job - I will tell people that their decision is likely to result in an issue and highlight how to avoid or mitigate the issue.
It is, however, not my job to fix an issue their decision created and nor is it the EUs...
The UK has nothing to fix. We don't want a sea border or a land border, so we say we will not operate either.
If the EU reciprocate, problem solved. If they don't, they need to come up with a fix.
What is there for us to fix?
So the UK has created a problem in Northern Ireland - why should the EU fix it?
Because it doesn't matter who created the problem. If they want it fixing, they need to fix it. That's realpolitik.
If we simply say "oh well, no border anywhere, life goes on" and diverge and do our own thing then what are they going to do about it? If nothing because its not their problem, then its not ours either. If they do something then they're acknowledging they need to be part of the solution.
The EU doesn't want to fix it - it's not in their interest to.
Going back to if this was a former customer of mine, I would be sitting back and watching the disaster unfold. As that would ensure future companies would have an example to ensure they didn't make the same mistake (yes it's cruel but there are only so many hours in a week).
How many other EU nations have an issue like NI?
Anyway that demonstrates why the UK play needs to be to get rid of GB-NI checks, it forces the ball into the EU's court. Either they blow it all up (moving NI back into the UK's customs territory, with a hard border on Ireland), or accept a small fudge of e-borders between GB-NI and NI-RoI.
Precisely!
This was always the end-game and Boris has played this game of chess brilliantly.
I agree with you on the needed outcome.
I'm not sure that I could disagree with you more about Johnson's chess playing ability.
The question is how to get to the end-game.
May's deal left NI legally in the EU's customs territory. Boris's left it legally in the UK's but with a Protocol. That's a massive difference.
Agreeing to the Protocol in exchange for the EU agreeing to the UK having its own customs territory was like sacrificing a pawn to capture the queen.
If we had May's deal now we'd be f**ked. The EU could enforce the checks as it would be their territory to handle. They can't anymore. We've agreed to a Protocol, subject to it not causing security concerns. Since it is causing security concerns (which was foreseeable) we can invoke that to get out of the Protocol. Checkmate.
I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
We don't "need" to align our SPS with the EU.
It would be entirely possible to diverge with the EU but to recognise each others's SPS as "equivalent" and remove the need for checks etc . That may affect the "integrity" of the Single Market but so be it, we would be making the same compromise in return. That is a genuine compromise, not chaining one party to another like a slave.
Mate, you keep dancing on this same pinhead. If our standards are "equivalent" then it means they are close enough to the required standard. Which they are now. And will be in the future as we declare that standards will only ever be increased. So we could do this as you suggest, but it is declaring that our standards will different *but directly comparable* to EU ones. Which you won't accept.
We can't wildly diverge our standards and recognise an equivalence which isn't there.
Yes we can. We can recognise our standards as currently equivalent but not commit to alignment, with a dispute system if divergence occurs in the future.
No commitments then, and if divergence leads to issues in the future you cross that bridge when you get there. If it doesn't, there's no issue.
We can do whatever we want - the issue is so can the EU and because we won't agree to the EU's terms the EU are imposing the WTO rules they impose on imports from all third party countries.
Indeed.
So our choice is to remove all Irish Sea border checks and then let the EU come up with a solution. If they impose checks on the Irish land border that's their choice. If they don't, then the problem is solved - NI is in UK and NI has open border with the EU.
Either way we do nothing and let the EU act or blink.
I don't think we have any checks on our side of the Irish sea. But how do you propose to remove the checks in Dublin or (for that matter) Belfast.
Belfast is part of the UK, it is on our side of the Irish sea. We simply stop doing any checks whatsoever in Belfast.
If the Republic wants to do checks in Dublin that's their prerogative, let them do that and own the consequences.
Extraordinary cakeism!
Now everyone knew an ERG Brexit would have ramifications for the GFA.
Now, as a former Remainer I accept Richard Tyndall's argument that Brexit was all about the "sovereignty" and we would have to live with any collateral consequences. He accepts that for "sovereignty" to be regained bad things would happen and it was a price worth paying
Your (and Boris Johnson's) argument is an out and out lie. You claim we regained our mystical "sovereignty", and there are no consequences, only those imposed on a Sovereign England by foreigners interfering with England's sovereignty.
Of course its cakeism!
So is the EU's notion that they can have peace in NI and their definition of "integrity of the Single Market". That is cakeism and it has failed, its their problem to fix.
If we refuse to do any checks in Belfast then I accept our decisions may have consequences in our relations with them, that's up to them to impose if they choose to do so. If they choose to erect border posts along the Irish land border that's their choice, we can't stop them doing that if they choose to do so. I don't think they will though, do you?
In my job - I will tell people that their decision is likely to result in an issue and highlight how to avoid or mitigate the issue.
It is, however, not my job to fix an issue their decision created and nor is it the EUs...
The UK has nothing to fix. We don't want a sea border or a land border, so we say we will not operate either.
If the EU reciprocate, problem solved. If they don't, they need to come up with a fix.
What is there for us to fix?
So the UK has created a problem in Northern Ireland - why should the EU fix it?
Because it doesn't matter who created the problem. If they want it fixing, they need to fix it. That's realpolitik.
If we simply say "oh well, no border anywhere, life goes on" and diverge and do our own thing then what are they going to do about it? If nothing because its not their problem, then its not ours either. If they do something then they're acknowledging they need to be part of the solution.
The EU doesn't want to fix it - it's not in their interest to.
Going back to if this was a former customer of mine, I would be sitting back and watching the disaster unfold. As that would ensure future companies would have an example to ensure they didn't make the same mistake (yes it's cruel but there are only so many hours in a week).
How many other EU nations have an issue like NI?
Anyway that demonstrates why the UK play needs to be to get rid of GB-NI checks, it forces the ball into the EU's court. Either they blow it all up (moving NI back into the UK's customs territory, with a hard border on Ireland), or accept a small fudge of e-borders between GB-NI and NI-RoI.
Again how do you get rid of those checks?
By errr, stopping checks? My understanding is that it's a mixture of local council staff and UKBF, UKBF staff are obvious, but get the councils to vote to remove their staff 'due to potential harm' (as indeed M&E Antrim already have at least once), and just don't put them back.
Unusual for me to agree with Galloway, but I have long thought this a likely outcome of Scottish independence. The only people some Scots hate more than the English are other Scots that don't share their views or sectarian allegiance
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
I have an answer.
You may not like it, but its an answer.
Drop the checks, stop fucking around, and deal with this in fresh negotiations. Until fresh negotiations reach an outcome, there's no checks by anyone.
Again, you may not like it, but its an answer. The best answer all along.
Unusual for me to agree with Galloway, but I have long thought this a likely outcome of Scottish independence. The only people some Scots hate more than the English are other Scots that don't share their views or sectarian allegiance
Well it all went smoothly when that approach was taken in Ireland.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
Philip Thompson has all the answers. He has solved the centuries old Irish Question that has stumped statesmen for ever with a few simple (or simplistic) clicks of his keyboard 🤣
I think Johnson was right. Letting the Northern Irish tail wag the British dog again would have been ridiculous, and probably led to serious riots in England.
My preferred solution is still for us to get rid of Northern Ireland, which has been an embarassing and expensive curse for centuries.
Certainly not from the Conservative and Unionist Party, the latter part of which came from opposition even to Irish Home Rule
That was the old Conservative Party, Boris Johnson's new Tory party, of which you are an enthusiastic cheerleader, is prepared to sacrifice the Union for Brexit.
[Conservative} Party members are also willing to sacrifice another fundamental tenet of Conservative belief in order to bring about Brexit: unionism.* Asked whether they would rather avert Brexit if it would lead to Scotland or Northern Ireland breaking away from the UK, respectively 63% and 59% of party members would be willing to pay for Brexit with the breakup of the United Kingdom.
I am sure Boris Johnson would sacrifice the Union for Brexit, not for the sake of Brexit (which even he isn't stupid enough to genuinely believe in), but for the sake of Boris Johnson. Colleagues, marriages, the Conservative Party, his country, even his own family are all subsidiary to his ego. Very sad, fat little man. His apologists are even sadder.
Whilst I agree that Boris is self interested, this seems to stem from devolution. Devolution has caused exactly the problem that Labour wanted it too by locking conservatives out of power in the Wales and Scotland. The unintended consequence of this has been a significant erosion of the Union seen in the increase in support for Scottish independence and the decrease in support for the Union in England.
Surely it is unsurprising that Politicians are willing to go against the name of their party if their supporters change position. I mean the lib Dems campaigned to ignore a democratic vote their supporters didn't like the result of.
PB continues to be obsessed with Scotland, while the PM's lies come home to roost in Northern Ireland.
Varadkar and Coveney are the root cause of current Belfast theatre. The posh boys saw a sleeping dog and just kept poking it despite saner voices saying leave it.
No, it is Johnsons deal. We signed up to it, we need to keep our word.
I am surprised that so many PB Tories want to give in to rioters, when even a sit down protest in Bristol gets their goat.
As and englishman your prime concern for NI is how it impacts your anti Boris shtick. Fair does. But as an Irishman I can assure the Varadkar Coveney stupidities are what is driving the current street theatre, which is why both of them now need 24/7 armed protection. Nobody so far is threatening to shoot BoJo.
Boris Johnson has armed bodyguards for that very reason.
IIRC the only cabinet ministers who received armed bodyguards/protection is the Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary, Defence Secretary, and the NI Secretary.
He's a PM and always has protection, but I m not aware of any NI paramilitaries recently issuing a death threat. Varadkar and Coveny
His warning someone might get killed, has a worried personal ring to it.
Want to know something funny somebody in the army told me a few years ago.
Since the mid 80s (ever since the Anglo-Irish Agreement) the Taoiseach's Gardaí security detail has been supplemented by ex British military personnel. There was only ever one caveat, no ex parachute regiment.
But nobody likes to talk about it, but it is one of the reasons why British troops parading in Dublin for Keith Malone's funeral in 2003 went so unremarked and without incident.
Who or what was Keith Malone?
My bad, I meant Ian Malone.
Keith Malone is a friend of mine.
Ah. That explains it. I was a bit puzzled!
Have a good morning. Enjoy the County Championship opening rounds.
Too bloody cold to enjoy the cricket in this weather,
You aren't supposed to enjoy county cricket though.....
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
I have an answer.
You may not like it, but its an answer.
Drop the checks, stop fucking around, and deal with this in fresh negotiations. Until fresh negotiations reach an outcome, there's no checks by anyone.
Again, you may not like it, but its an answer. The best answer all along.
The EU can't drop the checks - what part of that fundamental issue (due to WTO rules) do completely and utterly fail to grasp....
Or do you recommend the British Government creates a law that allows the NI police to stop the EU border officers from doing their job?
Wow Scott has been on Twitter and found a load of moaning remainers - presumably his follow list - who don't like things the way they are. I wonder how many of them supported May's compromise deal which would have avoided these issues. I assume none as any action save ignoring the declared outcome was the default position for most. Acting like a creepy bloke hanging around his ex wife's house after a divorce refusing to accept reality.
That's a bum rap. There were plenty of Remainers like me who supported May's deal and were opposed to a 2nd Referendum. I therefore have the absolute authority, free of all taint and bias, to call out the egregious, bare-faced Brexit lies of Boris Johnson.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
Philip Thompson has all the answers. He has solved the centuries old Irish Question that has stumped statesmen for ever with a few simple (or simplistic) clicks of his keyboard 🤣
If anyone has a better solution than mine that squares the circle of the UK being in full control of its laws (no alignment) and maintaining peace in Northern Ireland then lets here it. I'm all ears.
If anyone can come up with a better solution than what I've said then lets give that a try. If you can't, then don't let the perfect be the enemy of 'it'll have to do because there's nothing better'.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
I have an answer.
You may not like it, but its an answer.
Drop the checks, stop fucking around, and deal with this in fresh negotiations. Until fresh negotiations reach an outcome, there's no checks by anyone.
Again, you may not like it, but its an answer. The best answer all along.
The EU can't drop the checks - what part of that fundamental issue (due to WTO rules) do completely and utterly fail to grasp....
But as I said, have they not have withdrawn their personnel
Unusual for me to agree with Galloway, but I have long thought this a likely outcome of Scottish independence. The only people some Scots hate more than the English are other Scots that don't share their views or sectarian allegiance
Well it all went smoothly when that approach was taken in Ireland.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
I have an answer.
You may not like it, but its an answer.
Drop the checks, stop fucking around, and deal with this in fresh negotiations. Until fresh negotiations reach an outcome, there's no checks by anyone.
Again, you may not like it, but its an answer. The best answer all along.
The EU can't drop the checks - what part of that fundamental issue (due to WTO rules) do completely and utterly fail to grasp....
Or do you recommend the British Government creates a law that allows the NI police to stop the EU border officers from doing their job?
EU border officers can do whatever they like in the EU's territory, yes.
As for doing it in the UK's territory, absolutely I'm saying they're not permitted to do it in our territory. That's part and parcel of the territory being de jure the UK's, and the Protocol being "fixed" by A16.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
I have an answer.
You may not like it, but its an answer.
Drop the checks, stop fucking around, and deal with this in fresh negotiations. Until fresh negotiations reach an outcome, there's no checks by anyone.
Again, you may not like it, but its an answer. The best answer all along.
The EU can't drop the checks - what part of that fundamental issue (due to WTO rules) do completely and utterly fail to grasp....
But as I said, have they not have withdrawn their personnel
They have.
And they can't come back and operate without the UK's co-operation. So we withdraw that and say they can't operate, what are they going to do?
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
I have an answer.
You may not like it, but its an answer.
Drop the checks, stop fucking around, and deal with this in fresh negotiations. Until fresh negotiations reach an outcome, there's no checks by anyone.
Again, you may not like it, but its an answer. The best answer all along.
The EU can't drop the checks - what part of that fundamental issue (due to WTO rules) do completely and utterly fail to grasp....
But as I said, have they not have withdrawn their personnel
They have.
And they can't come back and operate without the UK's co-operation. So we withdraw that and say they can't operate, what are they going to do?
Unusual for me to agree with Galloway, but I have long thought this a likely outcome of Scottish independence. The only people some Scots hate more than the English are other Scots that don't share their views or sectarian allegiance
Well it all went smoothly when that approach was taken in Ireland.
Smoother than the civil war that would have occurred for decades had the Protestant and Unionist majority North faced direct rule from Dublin.
If Scottish and Northern Irish nationalists can push to leave the UK post Brexit as they voted Remain, then Scottish Unionists in the Borders can push to stay in the UK if there is ever a Yes vote in a Scottish indyref2 and the Borders voted No
"Deaths registered in UK still below the five-year average The number of deaths registered in the UK in the week ending 26 March was 11,439, which was 5% below the five-year average, according to the Office for National Statistics.
Last week, deaths were 8% below the five-year-average.
And 799 of these deaths involved Covid-19, 245 lower than the previous week."
I di think that we need to watch this "involved Covid" thing. There is a pretty fundamental difference between someone who dies of the side effects of Covid, even if already ill and those who die with Covid if it is not making them ill. On the present criteria I am not clear how we are ever likely to get to zero without the complete elimination of the virus.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
I have an answer.
You may not like it, but its an answer.
Drop the checks, stop fucking around, and deal with this in fresh negotiations. Until fresh negotiations reach an outcome, there's no checks by anyone.
Again, you may not like it, but its an answer. The best answer all along.
You have no answer at all. Just the fixed certainty of the utterly ignorant. I do not mean to be rude. But like pretty much all ultra-Brexiteers you have no understanding of Irish history and are simply not prepared to accept the consequences of the decision you voted for and the agreement you've praised to the skies. So you pretend there is an easy solution which it is the responsibility of other parties - not those who made the decision to leave on these particular terms - to implement.
I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
We don't "need" to align our SPS with the EU.
It would be entirely possible to diverge with the EU but to recognise each others's SPS as "equivalent" and remove the need for checks etc . That may affect the "integrity" of the Single Market but so be it, we would be making the same compromise in return. That is a genuine compromise, not chaining one party to another like a slave.
Mate, you keep dancing on this same pinhead. If our standards are "equivalent" then it means they are close enough to the required standard. Which they are now. And will be in the future as we declare that standards will only ever be increased. So we could do this as you suggest, but it is declaring that our standards will different *but directly comparable* to EU ones. Which you won't accept.
We can't wildly diverge our standards and recognise an equivalence which isn't there.
Yes we can. We can recognise our standards as currently equivalent but not commit to alignment, with a dispute system if divergence occurs in the future.
No commitments then, and if divergence leads to issues in the future you cross that bridge when you get there. If it doesn't, there's no issue.
We can do whatever we want - the issue is so can the EU and because we won't agree to the EU's terms the EU are imposing the WTO rules they impose on imports from all third party countries.
Indeed.
So our choice is to remove all Irish Sea border checks and then let the EU come up with a solution. If they impose checks on the Irish land border that's their choice. If they don't, then the problem is solved - NI is in UK and NI has open border with the EU.
Either way we do nothing and let the EU act or blink.
I don't think we have any checks on our side of the Irish sea. But how do you propose to remove the checks in Dublin or (for that matter) Belfast.
Belfast is part of the UK, it is on our side of the Irish sea. We simply stop doing any checks whatsoever in Belfast.
If the Republic wants to do checks in Dublin that's their prerogative, let them do that and own the consequences.
Extraordinary cakeism!
Now everyone knew an ERG Brexit would have ramifications for the GFA.
Now, as a former Remainer I accept Richard Tyndall's argument that Brexit was all about the "sovereignty" and we would have to live with any collateral consequences. He accepts that for "sovereignty" to be regained bad things would happen and it was a price worth paying
Your (and Boris Johnson's) argument is an out and out lie. You claim we regained our mystical "sovereignty", and there are no consequences, only those imposed on a Sovereign England by foreigners interfering with England's sovereignty.
Of course its cakeism!
So is the EU's notion that they can have peace in NI and their definition of "integrity of the Single Market". That is cakeism and it has failed, its their problem to fix.
If we refuse to do any checks in Belfast then I accept our decisions may have consequences in our relations with them, that's up to them to impose if they choose to do so. If they choose to erect border posts along the Irish land border that's their choice, we can't stop them doing that if they choose to do so. I don't think they will though, do you?
In my job - I will tell people that their decision is likely to result in an issue and highlight how to avoid or mitigate the issue.
It is, however, not my job to fix an issue their decision created and nor is it the EUs...
The UK has nothing to fix. We don't want a sea border or a land border, so we say we will not operate either.
If the EU reciprocate, problem solved. If they don't, they need to come up with a fix.
What is there for us to fix?
So the UK has created a problem in Northern Ireland - why should the EU fix it?
Well for one the death threats by credible terrorist groups against an EU leader. However more broadly, no-one is suggesting that the EU fixes anything, indeed the best think it could do it continue not to care.
Exactly. We have created a problem and the EU are correctly going to leave us to fix it
The only problem the UK / Boris has is that he can't fix it without compromising on something that he won't / can't compromise on.
Cool. Abolish Belfast checks.
Then its fixed. Life goes on.
Glad we can be agreed. 👍
How do you do that then given that we are allowing the EU to do them? I await your solution.
Ultimately, for all the bluster, BoJo has given the EU what it needed; no checks IRE-Continent, no checks IRE-NI and a managed border round the EEA. Because that was the price of getting a deal.
Of course, BoJo could go back on his word, in the short term there wouldn't be much the EU could do. But this isn't a one- off game of chess, it's a never-ending tournament with a hundred players who are also spectators. Will the USA or TPP be more likely to sign a deal with the UK if we weasel out of the plain meaning of the TCA?
BoJo lies. We all know that, and sometimes that low cunning is what you need in a leader. But his usual approach when the lies get too tangled is to cut loose, find a different employer/constituency/mistress and start again. For the first time in a long time, he can't do that. If I were a God who wished to punish a hubristic mortal, I'm not sure I could devise a better punishment.
Question - if NI is part of the UK's customs area then why does the UK government treat it as if it is not? It isn't just that you cannot ship products from GB to NI without making customs declarations. You have to set up your business differently if you plan to trade with NI.
The Ltd company I have just set up has VAT and EORI numbers. Part of the process followed asks if I am to be exporting (note the word) products to NI because if I am then I need a completely different EORI number (https://www.gov.uk/eori/eori-northern-ireland). My GB EORI number gives me no rights at all to "export" from GB to NI.
Philip's statements that NI is a fully integral part of the UK customs area is laughable bollocks.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
I have an answer.
You may not like it, but its an answer.
Drop the checks, stop fucking around, and deal with this in fresh negotiations. Until fresh negotiations reach an outcome, there's no checks by anyone.
Again, you may not like it, but its an answer. The best answer all along.
The EU can't drop the checks - what part of that fundamental issue (due to WTO rules) do completely and utterly fail to grasp....
But as I said, have they not have withdrawn their personnel
They have.
And they can't come back and operate without the UK's co-operation. So we withdraw that and say they can't operate, what are they going to do?
And why have they withdrawn
Because its not safe for their staff to operate.
If its not safe for their staff to operate, then that is legitimate grounds for A16. And we should not permit anyone to interfere with GB/NI trade ever again until this is resolved to everybody's satisfaction.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
Philip Thompson has all the answers. He has solved the centuries old Irish Question that has stumped statesmen for ever with a few simple (or simplistic) clicks of his keyboard 🤣
If anyone has a better solution than mine that squares the circle of the UK being in full control of its laws (no alignment) and maintaining peace in Northern Ireland then lets here it. I'm all ears.
If anyone can come up with a better solution than what I've said then lets give that a try. If you can't, then don't let the perfect be the enemy of 'it'll have to do because there's nothing better'.
I am sorry to laugh at you Philip, but here is the conundrum for those like you that clearly know the square root of jack shit about Ireland, that was best summed up in the satirical history book "1066 and all that" (required reading when I was a child):
"(William Gladstone) spent his declining years trying to guess the answer to the Irish question; unfortunately, whenever he was getting warm, the Irish secretly changed the question”.
Statement of fact: Ireland is a very complex place politically. Problems there, whether the fault of the Eire government, the Unionists, the British government, the IRA, various so-called loyalist thugs, or the EU will not be easily solved by a (well meaning perhaps) PB obsessed keyboard warrior
Question - if NI is part of the UK's customs area then why does the UK government treat it as if it is not? It isn't just that you cannot ship products from GB to NI without making customs declarations. You have to set up your business differently if you plan to trade with NI.
The Ltd company I have just set up has VAT and EORI numbers. Part of the process followed asks if I am to be exporting (note the word) products to NI because if I am then I need a completely different EORI number (https://www.gov.uk/eori/eori-northern-ireland). My GB EORI number gives me no rights at all to "export" from GB to NI.
Philip's statements that NI is a fully integral part of the UK customs area is laughable bollocks.
Because of the Protocol. 🤦♂️
Legally de jure NI is part of the UK's territory. De facto it isn't because of the Protocol. What part of that are you failing to understand?
So now we've sorted out the de jure with Boris's deal, now we need to sort out the de facto. One step at a time. Invoke A16, "fix" it de facto, problem solved, game over.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
Philip Thompson has all the answers. He has solved the centuries old Irish Question that has stumped statesmen for ever with a few simple (or simplistic) clicks of his keyboard 🤣
If anyone has a better solution than mine that squares the circle of the UK being in full control of its laws (no alignment) and maintaining peace in Northern Ireland then lets here it. I'm all ears.
If anyone can come up with a better solution than what I've said then lets give that a try. If you can't, then don't let the perfect be the enemy of 'it'll have to do because there's nothing better'.
I am sorry to laugh at you Philip, but here is the conundrum for those like you that clearly know the square root of jack shit about Ireland, that was best summed up in the satirical history book "1066 and all that" (required reading when I was a child):
"(William Gladstone) spent his declining years trying to guess the answer to the Irish question; unfortunately, whenever he was getting warm, the Irish secretly changed the question”.
Statement of fact: Ireland is a very complex place politically. Problems there, whether the fault of the Eire government, the Unionists, the British government, the IRA, various so-called loyalist thugs, or the EU will not be easily solved by a (well meaning perhaps) PB obsessed keyboard warrior
So that's a long-winded way of saying no you don't have anything better then? 🤔
Mine is an uncomfortable fudge, but so was the GFA. It is what NI needs. It doesn't need clean and perfect pristine border checks, that's the last think NI needs and the last thing anyone should want. It needs down and dirty compromises. It needs a blind eye turning at appropriate moments. It needs an acceptance that there's two communities that need to be satisfied, not one.
PB continues to be obsessed with Scotland, while the PM's lies come home to roost in Northern Ireland.
Varadkar and Coveney are the root cause of current Belfast theatre. The posh boys saw a sleeping dog and just kept poking it despite saner voices saying leave it.
No, it is Johnsons deal. We signed up to it, we need to keep our word.
I am surprised that so many PB Tories want to give in to rioters, when even a sit down protest in Bristol gets their goat.
The current structure is unworkable. It's only the deal because Vardkar and Coveney refused to look at alternatives.
@Alanbrooke and I both know something about Irish politics (him more than me to be fair!)
What alternatives? This was always an unsolvable problem of Brexit.
The basic way to make this work is a trusted trader scheme.
It's not monitoring every crossing of the border (for which the technology doesn't exist) but licensing the relatively small number of firms who are responsible for 95%+ of the cross-border trade.
PB continues to be obsessed with Scotland, while the PM's lies come home to roost in Northern Ireland.
Varadkar and Coveney are the root cause of current Belfast theatre. The posh boys saw a sleeping dog and just kept poking it despite saner voices saying leave it.
No, it is Johnsons deal. We signed up to it, we need to keep our word.
I am surprised that so many PB Tories want to give in to rioters, when even a sit down protest in Bristol gets their goat.
The current structure is unworkable. It's only the deal because Vardkar and Coveney refused to look at alternatives.
@Alanbrooke and I both know something about Irish politics (him more than me to be fair!)
What alternatives? This was always an unsolvable problem of Brexit.
The basic way to make this work is a trusted trader scheme.
It's not monitoring every crossing of the border (for which the technology doesn't exist) but licensing the relatively small number of firms who are responsible for 95%+ of the cross-border trade.
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.
Always the right solution. If the other 5% cause some smuggling then shit happens. There's always been smuggling in NI. Its how the sectarians on both sides make their money, so nobodies going to war to prevent that happening.
PB continues to be obsessed with Scotland, while the PM's lies come home to roost in Northern Ireland.
Varadkar and Coveney are the root cause of current Belfast theatre. The posh boys saw a sleeping dog and just kept poking it despite saner voices saying leave it.
No, it is Johnsons deal. We signed up to it, we need to keep our word.
I am surprised that so many PB Tories want to give in to rioters, when even a sit down protest in Bristol gets their goat.
The current structure is unworkable. It's only the deal because Vardkar and Coveney refused to look at alternatives.
@Alanbrooke and I both know something about Irish politics (him more than me to be fair!)
Yes, the Brexit deal is unworkable.
If only someone had noticed...
Yes. It's an idiotic structure forced on us because the EU thought that they could overturn the democratically expressed views of the UK electorate by refusing to look at alternatives.
Newsflash: democracy wins.
Brexit has happened. Now people need to get off their high horses and look for a solution that maintains peace in Northern Ireland. That involves compromise.
Question - if NI is part of the UK's customs area then why does the UK government treat it as if it is not? It isn't just that you cannot ship products from GB to NI without making customs declarations. You have to set up your business differently if you plan to trade with NI.
The Ltd company I have just set up has VAT and EORI numbers. Part of the process followed asks if I am to be exporting (note the word) products to NI because if I am then I need a completely different EORI number (https://www.gov.uk/eori/eori-northern-ireland). My GB EORI number gives me no rights at all to "export" from GB to NI.
Philip's statements that NI is a fully integral part of the UK customs area is laughable bollocks.
Because of the Protocol. 🤦♂️
Legally de jure NI is part of the UK's territory. De facto it isn't because of the Protocol. What part of that are you failing to understand?
So now we've sorted out the de jure with Boris's deal, now we need to sort out the de facto. One step at a time. Invoke A16, "fix" it de facto, problem solved, game over.
Your basic problem (aside from the comedy arrogance which I think you deploy for effect) is that "invoke A16" isn't a solution.
As the UK government state, NI is not in the UK customs Union. Indeed there is no longer a UK customs union, just a GB one. De Jure the law is very clear that you cannot export from GB to NI without setting up as an exporter and following the legal process that is now UK law.
I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
We don't "need" to align our SPS with the EU.
It would be entirely possible to diverge with the EU but to recognise each others's SPS as "equivalent" and remove the need for checks etc . That may affect the "integrity" of the Single Market but so be it, we would be making the same compromise in return. That is a genuine compromise, not chaining one party to another like a slave.
We need to agree to the things the EU require - as strangely enough the EU hold all the cards and have the ability to say No No No...
No, we don't.
If they refuse to have sensible discussions we set aside the protocol - as we have the right to do - and leave it up to them to decide if they want to put border posts up.
Question - if NI is part of the UK's customs area then why does the UK government treat it as if it is not? It isn't just that you cannot ship products from GB to NI without making customs declarations. You have to set up your business differently if you plan to trade with NI.
The Ltd company I have just set up has VAT and EORI numbers. Part of the process followed asks if I am to be exporting (note the word) products to NI because if I am then I need a completely different EORI number (https://www.gov.uk/eori/eori-northern-ireland). My GB EORI number gives me no rights at all to "export" from GB to NI.
Philip's statements that NI is a fully integral part of the UK customs area is laughable bollocks.
Because of the Protocol. 🤦♂️
Legally de jure NI is part of the UK's territory. De facto it isn't because of the Protocol. What part of that are you failing to understand?
So now we've sorted out the de jure with Boris's deal, now we need to sort out the de facto. One step at a time. Invoke A16, "fix" it de facto, problem solved, game over.
Your basic problem (aside from the comedy arrogance which I think you deploy for effect) is that "invoke A16" isn't a solution.
As the UK government state, NI is not in the UK customs Union. Indeed there is no longer a UK customs union, just a GB one. De Jure the law is very clear that you cannot export from GB to NI without setting up as an exporter and following the legal process that is now UK law.
You're wrong, NI is in the UK Customs Union de jure.
De facto there is the protocol to deal with. De facto you can not export from GB to NI without following the process that is now UK law, but that is UK law despite NI being de jure UK, not because of NI being de jure EU. Change UK law to cease to require these checks and that's on us, since its our territory.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
Philip Thompson has all the answers. He has solved the centuries old Irish Question that has stumped statesmen for ever with a few simple (or simplistic) clicks of his keyboard 🤣
If anyone has a better solution than mine that squares the circle of the UK being in full control of its laws (no alignment) and maintaining peace in Northern Ireland then lets here it. I'm all ears.
If anyone can come up with a better solution than what I've said then lets give that a try. If you can't, then don't let the perfect be the enemy of 'it'll have to do because there's nothing better'.
I am sorry to laugh at you Philip, but here is the conundrum for those like you that clearly know the square root of jack shit about Ireland, that was best summed up in the satirical history book "1066 and all that" (required reading when I was a child):
"(William Gladstone) spent his declining years trying to guess the answer to the Irish question; unfortunately, whenever he was getting warm, the Irish secretly changed the question”.
Statement of fact: Ireland is a very complex place politically. Problems there, whether the fault of the Eire government, the Unionists, the British government, the IRA, various so-called loyalist thugs, or the EU will not be easily solved by a (well meaning perhaps) PB obsessed keyboard warrior
So that's a long-winded way of saying no you don't have anything better then? 🤔
Mine is an uncomfortable fudge, but so was the GFA. It is what NI needs. It doesn't need clean and perfect pristine border checks, that's the last think NI needs and the last thing anyone should want. It needs down and dirty compromises. It needs a blind eye turning at appropriate moments. It needs an acceptance that there's two communities that need to be satisfied, not one.
Ok, I'll make it shorter so even you can understand: Much cleverer people than you do not have the answer, because the moving parts in Ireland will mean the question will always change. Your very simplistic attempt at an answer is quaint, but I suggest you move onto a topic that you might have some knowledge of.
I'd rather not derail this thread on Ireland, which generates more heat than light.
And I'm certainly not an expert on trade.
But the vast bulk of trade can be managed through a trusted trader / self-decleration / spot-check system. And you can use intelligence led monitoring to cover the rest.
The free movement of people is already covered by the CTA.
And yet such an easy solution eludes us - because it isn't based in reality. The bulk of Irish trade is food. We need to completely align our SPS standards with the EU and do a deal to remove the checks. Our standards ARE completely aligned, but apparently we can't agree a deal because at some point in the future the EU may increase their standards just to spite us.
Even outside of food, there are naysayers on this forum including your good self decrying the idea of agreed alignment which is the basis for trusted trader / self-declaration systems.
There is plenty of relevance to Scotland though - England thinking that it can drag savage appendages like NI and Scotland around to do something stupid against their will. The big push towards another independence vote up here is largely thanks to Brexit (and the Boris corrupt organisation), and they are literally rioting in NI.
"Respect democracy" doesn't work when its imposed destruction.
Why doesn't self-decleration work for food standards as well?
As self-declaration doesn't work for non-food why would it work for food?
To have such an agreement you have to have an agreement on standards which you are declaring compliance with. Otherwise self-declaration is "I declare that my goods are non-compliant with your standards".
The problem is that despite our current and declared future alignment with EU standards, we won't agree to anything. Us. Not them.
A manufacturer self-declares that goods are in compliance with EU standards. As everyone does for trade into most countries.
A manufacturer self-declares that there will be no onward export into the EU, so there are no checks needed between NI and GB.
Brexit has happened. Now people need to get off their high horses and look for a solution that maintains peace in Northern Ireland. That involves compromise.
A compromise on Brexit was the solution, but BoZo and his fanbois refused to countenance that.
SNP under 50% on the constituency vote, so Unionist tactical voting will be key
Im not sure an SNP majority is nailed on. You’d expect some of sanwars polling to translate well into these figs going forward.
Plus - the pretty much 50/50 split between Indy and unionism. There must be people voting for the SNP purely because they are seen as representing Scotland strongly within the UK
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
Philip Thompson has all the answers. He has solved the centuries old Irish Question that has stumped statesmen for ever with a few simple (or simplistic) clicks of his keyboard 🤣
If anyone has a better solution than mine that squares the circle of the UK being in full control of its laws (no alignment) and maintaining peace in Northern Ireland then lets here it. I'm all ears.
If anyone can come up with a better solution than what I've said then lets give that a try. If you can't, then don't let the perfect be the enemy of 'it'll have to do because there's nothing better'.
I am sorry to laugh at you Philip, but here is the conundrum for those like you that clearly know the square root of jack shit about Ireland, that was best summed up in the satirical history book "1066 and all that" (required reading when I was a child):
"(William Gladstone) spent his declining years trying to guess the answer to the Irish question; unfortunately, whenever he was getting warm, the Irish secretly changed the question”.
Statement of fact: Ireland is a very complex place politically. Problems there, whether the fault of the Eire government, the Unionists, the British government, the IRA, various so-called loyalist thugs, or the EU will not be easily solved by a (well meaning perhaps) PB obsessed keyboard warrior
So that's a long-winded way of saying no you don't have anything better then? 🤔
Mine is an uncomfortable fudge, but so was the GFA. It is what NI needs. It doesn't need clean and perfect pristine border checks, that's the last think NI needs and the last thing anyone should want. It needs down and dirty compromises. It needs a blind eye turning at appropriate moments. It needs an acceptance that there's two communities that need to be satisfied, not one.
Ok, I'll make it shorter so even you can understand: Much cleverer people than you do not have the answer, because the moving parts in Ireland will mean the question will always change. Your very simplistic attempt at an answer is quaint, but I suggest you move onto a topic that you might have some knowledge of.
So you're saying there is no solution?
In which case we do whatever we please and sod it, there'll be consequences. Learn to live with it.
I am afraid Alanbrooke is correct Leo Varadkar in particular has messed about when the long held view of the main political parties in Ireland has been to let the sleeping dogs lie and the constitutional issue may at some point (like 30+ years hence) work its way through. No hurry, no problem. People also forget how much large sections of what may be considered nationalists in Northern Ireland weren't exactly in a hurry either. Poll after poll showed a kind of 'sometime maybe a bit later' being a big slice of the population.
I suspect Martin has the ability to work this differently. He considers himself, as most politicians down south do, as an avowed nationalist but he has been involved from way back with things up here so knows the picture. Over the last few of years there has been the odd intervention of senior Fianna Fail figures who were involved in the political negotiations up back in the 90s & 2000s here warning the Varadkar led government that you had to bring unionism along.
They made those interventions because they saw Varadkar was being too arrogant about it.
The protocol is a problem less because of the principle which I suspect could have been got away with if it it didn't have such a visible impact. The practicalities of it have been absurd and the EU, London & Dublin should have caught themselves on . Get a bit pragmatic they could have dealt with it, but they didn't and now we are where we are.
What, however, has really tipped it over is the failure to sanction those people who turned up at Bobby Storeys funeral in about as blatant a break of Covid regulations as you could get. The inescapable conclusion is that they police didn't want to put up in court or fine (which would have been the logical move) the Sinn Fein Deputy First Minister & other Sinn Fein politicians because of exactly who they were. I know enough people in well informed positions who know they bottled it. And just as note every other major political party here apart from Sinn Fein was pissed off about it because they could see exactly what the implication was, impunity.
Off topic
I acceded to your earlier claim that I was talking nonsense and the national identity- sectarian link had been left in the 1980s, and accepted your "off topic" as such. I am less inclined, now you have demonstrated your 'scratch the surface' partisanship (and I consider my words carefully) in this post, and that you accept Philip Thompson and others' wholly uninformed commentary because it fits your narrative.
My point was not at all partisan from the point of picking sides with Unionists or Nationalists. I was suggesting that Boris Johnson (and Mrs May before him) have even less understanding than I do, and Johnson in particular, should be treading a lot more carefully than he has to date.
"Deaths registered in UK still below the five-year average The number of deaths registered in the UK in the week ending 26 March was 11,439, which was 5% below the five-year average, according to the Office for National Statistics.
Last week, deaths were 8% below the five-year-average.
And 799 of these deaths involved Covid-19, 245 lower than the previous week."
I di think that we need to watch this "involved Covid" thing. There is a pretty fundamental difference between someone who dies of the side effects of Covid, even if already ill and those who die with Covid if it is not making them ill. On the present criteria I am not clear how we are ever likely to get to zero without the complete elimination of the virus.
Even if we eliminate Covid 100% from this island, but keep testing at current levels we can expect at least a death a day with Covid.
At 1.3m tests/day, with a 0.15% false positive rate, that's ~2,000 false positives a day. About 1% of the population dies in any given year (so 0.01*1/13 is the mean risk of a person dying within 28 days from any given point), so theoretically we can expect 1.5 daily deaths where the person has falsely tested positive within the past 28 days.
Obviously that assumes that those taking covid tests are an exact reflection of the population's wider demographics (which they aren't - lots are school children), however if the '2 free tests a week' thing comes to fruition then the number of tests will soar.
Brexit has happened. Now people need to get off their high horses and look for a solution that maintains peace in Northern Ireland. That involves compromise.
A compromise on Brexit was the solution, but BoZo and his fanbois refused to countenance that.
And here we are...
The UK remaining forevermore tethered to the EU without a choice in the matter is not a "compromise".
One interesting small point on NI is that the demographic adjustments have changed from a drift to nationalist more towards the growth of a less-committed 'middle'.
Question - if NI is part of the UK's customs area then why does the UK government treat it as if it is not? It isn't just that you cannot ship products from GB to NI without making customs declarations. You have to set up your business differently if you plan to trade with NI.
The Ltd company I have just set up has VAT and EORI numbers. Part of the process followed asks if I am to be exporting (note the word) products to NI because if I am then I need a completely different EORI number (https://www.gov.uk/eori/eori-northern-ireland). My GB EORI number gives me no rights at all to "export" from GB to NI.
Philip's statements that NI is a fully integral part of the UK customs area is laughable bollocks.
Because of the Protocol. 🤦♂️
Legally de jure NI is part of the UK's territory. De facto it isn't because of the Protocol. What part of that are you failing to understand?
So now we've sorted out the de jure with Boris's deal, now we need to sort out the de facto. One step at a time. Invoke A16, "fix" it de facto, problem solved, game over.
Your basic problem (aside from the comedy arrogance which I think you deploy for effect) is that "invoke A16" isn't a solution.
As the UK government state, NI is not in the UK customs Union. Indeed there is no longer a UK customs union, just a GB one. De Jure the law is very clear that you cannot export from GB to NI without setting up as an exporter and following the legal process that is now UK law.
[Citation Needed]
Where does the UK state that NI is not in the UK Customs Union. Black and white. Not de facto policies due to laws that can be changed, but legally separate from the customs union.
The law can be whatever we like within our territory. We could require export to be declared from Liverpool to Manchester if we want, but its still our territory. The Withdrawal Agreement, the WTO, international law all confirms that NI is de jure part of the UK's customs union.
Our laws don't change that. Our laws can be changed.
PB continues to be obsessed with Scotland, while the PM's lies come home to roost in Northern Ireland.
Varadkar and Coveney are the root cause of current Belfast theatre. The posh boys saw a sleeping dog and just kept poking it despite saner voices saying leave it.
No, it is Johnsons deal. We signed up to it, we need to keep our word.
I am surprised that so many PB Tories want to give in to rioters, when even a sit down protest in Bristol gets their goat.
The current structure is unworkable. It's only the deal because Vardkar and Coveney refused to look at alternatives.
@Alanbrooke and I both know something about Irish politics (him more than me to be fair!)
What alternatives? This was always an unsolvable problem of Brexit.
The basic way to make this work is a trusted trader scheme.
It's not monitoring every crossing of the border (for which the technology doesn't exist) but licensing the relatively small number of firms who are responsible for 95%+ of the cross-border trade.
Good idea, but that will still not satisfy the Unionists. People on here ( I am not including you in though) who make categoric statements about answers to this challenge clearly have no understanding of the mentality of many people in NI and in the republic. They are amongst the nicest people I have ever had contact with, but if you fuck with them they can be the nastiest in the world. They will literally die on a hill over a principle that most people in the rest of Western Europe would think trivial. They can make the ERG or the European Commission look like models of reason and compromise. That said it is a place that is close to my heart and I do wish people like Philip who clearly have zero understanding would shut the fuck up on the subject
SNP under 50% on the constituency vote, so Unionist tactical voting will be key
Im not sure an SNP majority is nailed on. You’d expect some of sanwars polling to translate well into these figs going forward.
Plus - the pretty much 50/50 split between Indy and unionism. There must be people voting for the SNP purely because they are seen as representing Scotland strongly within the UK
Hands up: I don't really follow the ins and outs of Scottish politics
However, it seems from a high level view that the bedrock of the SNP has been the Central belt, which has historically been Labour. If Labour is now seen as more viable, surely Tory and LD voters in the Central belt will think more seriously about switching to Labour to defeat the SNP
If you can change the word ‘massive’ to ‘mahoosive’, to make it more impressive, I see no reason why you can’t further change it to ‘mahoohoohoosive’ or even ‘mahoohoohoohoohoosive’.
Question - if NI is part of the UK's customs area then why does the UK government treat it as if it is not? It isn't just that you cannot ship products from GB to NI without making customs declarations. You have to set up your business differently if you plan to trade with NI.
The Ltd company I have just set up has VAT and EORI numbers. Part of the process followed asks if I am to be exporting (note the word) products to NI because if I am then I need a completely different EORI number (https://www.gov.uk/eori/eori-northern-ireland). My GB EORI number gives me no rights at all to "export" from GB to NI.
Philip's statements that NI is a fully integral part of the UK customs area is laughable bollocks.
Because of the Protocol. 🤦♂️
Legally de jure NI is part of the UK's territory. De facto it isn't because of the Protocol. What part of that are you failing to understand?
So now we've sorted out the de jure with Boris's deal, now we need to sort out the de facto. One step at a time. Invoke A16, "fix" it de facto, problem solved, game over.
Your basic problem (aside from the comedy arrogance which I think you deploy for effect) is that "invoke A16" isn't a solution.
As the UK government state, NI is not in the UK customs Union. Indeed there is no longer a UK customs union, just a GB one. De Jure the law is very clear that you cannot export from GB to NI without setting up as an exporter and following the legal process that is now UK law.
[Citation Needed]
Where does the UK state that NI is not in the UK Customs Union. Black and white. Not de facto policies due to laws that can be changed, but legally separate from the customs union.
The law can be whatever we like within our territory. We could require export to be declared from Liverpool to Manchester if we want, but its still our territory. The Withdrawal Agreement, the WTO, international law all confirms that NI is de jure part of the UK's customs union.
Our laws don't change that. Our laws can be changed.
The citation is in his post and the paperwork required since January to ship anything into Northern Ireland.
You of course don't actually do any real work so don't understand how the real world actually works nor do you have any idea what is required to ship something into Northern Ireland.
Hint if you go to the post office and send something to Northern Ireland you will be asked to fill in a customs declaration form. May I suggest you go there and double check.
"Deaths registered in UK still below the five-year average The number of deaths registered in the UK in the week ending 26 March was 11,439, which was 5% below the five-year average, according to the Office for National Statistics.
Last week, deaths were 8% below the five-year-average.
And 799 of these deaths involved Covid-19, 245 lower than the previous week."
I di think that we need to watch this "involved Covid" thing. There is a pretty fundamental difference between someone who dies of the side effects of Covid, even if already ill and those who die with Covid if it is not making them ill. On the present criteria I am not clear how we are ever likely to get to zero without the complete elimination of the virus.
Even if we eliminate Covid 100% from this island, but keep testing at current levels we can expect at least a death a day with Covid.
At 1.3m tests/day, with a 0.15% false positive rate, that's ~2,000 false positives a day. About 1% of the population dies in any given year (so 0.01*1/13 is the mean risk of a person dying within 28 days from any given point), so theoretically we can expect 1.5 daily deaths where the person has falsely tested positive within the past 28 days.
Obviously that assumes that those taking covid tests are an exact reflection of the population's wider demographics (which they aren't - lots are school children), however if the '2 free tests a week' thing comes to fruition then the number of tests will soar.
Except the false positive rate is surely lower than 0.15% because when testing rocketed by nearly a million a day, the number of positives didn't change significantly. If false positives were such an issue we should have seen a surge in positive rates but we didn't.
Question - if NI is part of the UK's customs area then why does the UK government treat it as if it is not? It isn't just that you cannot ship products from GB to NI without making customs declarations. You have to set up your business differently if you plan to trade with NI.
The Ltd company I have just set up has VAT and EORI numbers. Part of the process followed asks if I am to be exporting (note the word) products to NI because if I am then I need a completely different EORI number (https://www.gov.uk/eori/eori-northern-ireland). My GB EORI number gives me no rights at all to "export" from GB to NI.
Philip's statements that NI is a fully integral part of the UK customs area is laughable bollocks.
Because of the Protocol. 🤦♂️
Legally de jure NI is part of the UK's territory. De facto it isn't because of the Protocol. What part of that are you failing to understand?
So now we've sorted out the de jure with Boris's deal, now we need to sort out the de facto. One step at a time. Invoke A16, "fix" it de facto, problem solved, game over.
Your basic problem (aside from the comedy arrogance which I think you deploy for effect) is that "invoke A16" isn't a solution.
As the UK government state, NI is not in the UK customs Union. Indeed there is no longer a UK customs union, just a GB one. De Jure the law is very clear that you cannot export from GB to NI without setting up as an exporter and following the legal process that is now UK law.
[Citation Needed]
Where does the UK state that NI is not in the UK Customs Union. Black and white. Not de facto policies due to laws that can be changed, but legally separate from the customs union.
The law can be whatever we like within our territory. We could require export to be declared from Liverpool to Manchester if we want, but its still our territory. The Withdrawal Agreement, the WTO, international law all confirms that NI is de jure part of the UK's customs union.
Our laws don't change that. Our laws can be changed.
The citation is in his post and the paperwork required since January to ship anything into Northern Ireland.
You of course don't actually do any real work so don't understand how the real world actually works nor do you have any idea what is required to ship something into Northern Ireland.
Hint if you go to the post office and send something to Northern Ireland you will be asked to fill in a customs declaration form. May I suggest you go there and double check.
0/10 try again.
That's our current law. That's not whose territory NI is in. 🤦♂️
Our current law could require declarations from Liverpool to Manchester, but that wouldn't make either Liverpool or Manchester leave our terrritory de jure.
According to the WTO and the Withdrawal Agreement whose territory is NI in? Its written down in black and white.
I see that the usual suspects are on again blaming the Irish for the decisions taken by the British government and their little helpers, NI Unionists.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
Philip Thompson has all the answers. He has solved the centuries old Irish Question that has stumped statesmen for ever with a few simple (or simplistic) clicks of his keyboard 🤣
If anyone has a better solution than mine that squares the circle of the UK being in full control of its laws (no alignment) and maintaining peace in Northern Ireland then lets here it. I'm all ears.
If anyone can come up with a better solution than what I've said then lets give that a try. If you can't, then don't let the perfect be the enemy of 'it'll have to do because there's nothing better'.
I am sorry to laugh at you Philip, but here is the conundrum for those like you that clearly know the square root of jack shit about Ireland, that was best summed up in the satirical history book "1066 and all that" (required reading when I was a child):
"(William Gladstone) spent his declining years trying to guess the answer to the Irish question; unfortunately, whenever he was getting warm, the Irish secretly changed the question”.
Statement of fact: Ireland is a very complex place politically. Problems there, whether the fault of the Eire government, the Unionists, the British government, the IRA, various so-called loyalist thugs, or the EU will not be easily solved by a (well meaning perhaps) PB obsessed keyboard warrior
So that's a long-winded way of saying no you don't have anything better then? 🤔
Mine is an uncomfortable fudge, but so was the GFA. It is what NI needs. It doesn't need clean and perfect pristine border checks, that's the last think NI needs and the last thing anyone should want. It needs down and dirty compromises. It needs a blind eye turning at appropriate moments. It needs an acceptance that there's two communities that need to be satisfied, not one.
Ok, I'll make it shorter so even you can understand: Much cleverer people than you do not have the answer, because the moving parts in Ireland will mean the question will always change. Your very simplistic attempt at an answer is quaint, but I suggest you move onto a topic that you might have some knowledge of.
So you're saying there is no solution?
In which case we do whatever we please and sod it, there'll be consequences. Learn to live with it.
No, I was saying your proposed solution is fucking stupid based on the fact that you have no understanding of the subject matter, even by your normal standards
I think it is very likely that Labour will beat the Tories this time out. As a Unionist I am much more interested in the overall situation between the groupings than how the vote is divided within them. I wish Sarwar every success in regaining votes and hopefully seats in Glasgow.
Douglas Ross is proving a bit rubbish, I notice SCons have put Ruth Davidson front and centre recently in this campaign.
A wise move.
Wasn’t Ross anointed by BJ & co? That and their rapid turnover in the ‘Union Unit’ indicates that they have a nose for talent like that Decca guy that rejected the Beatles. Of course there may not actually be any talent..
PB continues to be obsessed with Scotland, while the PM's lies come home to roost in Northern Ireland.
Varadkar and Coveney are the root cause of current Belfast theatre. The posh boys saw a sleeping dog and just kept poking it despite saner voices saying leave it.
No, it is Johnsons deal. We signed up to it, we need to keep our word.
I am surprised that so many PB Tories want to give in to rioters, when even a sit down protest in Bristol gets their goat.
The current structure is unworkable. It's only the deal because Vardkar and Coveney refused to look at alternatives.
@Alanbrooke and I both know something about Irish politics (him more than me to be fair!)
What alternatives? This was always an unsolvable problem of Brexit.
The basic way to make this work is a trusted trader scheme.
It's not monitoring every crossing of the border (for which the technology doesn't exist) but licensing the relatively small number of firms who are responsible for 95%+ of the cross-border trade.
Good idea, but that will still not satisfy the Unionists. People on here ( I am not including you in though) who make categoric statements about answers to this challenge clearly have no understanding of the mentality of many people in NI and in the republic. They are amongst the nicest people I have ever had contact with, but if you fuck with them they can be the nastiest in the world. They will literally die on a hill over a principle that most people in the rest of Western Europe would think trivial. They can make the ERG or the European Commission look like models of reason and compromise. That said it is a place that is close to my heart and I do wish people like Philip who clearly have zero understanding would shut the fuck up on the subject
Most people will die on a hill for something they think is important that no one else cares about - it's the biggest cause of civil wars...
Also it's a shame that Vanilla doesn't (unlike other software) have an ignore function to allow you to ignore people best left ignored.
The wording of the latest Tory fundraising email is interesting (I'm not sure why they target me as a likely contributor): Obviously it's a fund-raiser so they'll say whatever they think best calculated to open wallets, but the admission of lack of Red Wall ground troops is probably true. ---------------------
Over the last year Labour have worked to radically overhaul the election operation which lost four general elections in a row. Attempting to create an impressive and well-funded campaign force, that will give them a clear advantage unless we act today. Right now, Labour are able to commit more money, more activists, more staff and more advertising in the areas that matter most. And alarmingly this pattern is not isolated to next month’s elections. They are in fact relentlessly targeting our new MPs to wipe out our majority. And the hard reality is that, because these MPs hold seats we haven’t held in generations, they simply don’t have the local campaign resources needed to halt Labour’s advances. To reverse their advantage and safeguard our majority I need you to become a founding donor of our Elections Fund today >> With you behind us I know we’ll prevail in protecting our MPs and continuing to elect local Conservatives. Allowing us to build back better from this pandemic, level up every region of the UK and seize the opportunities of Brexit.
"Deaths registered in UK still below the five-year average The number of deaths registered in the UK in the week ending 26 March was 11,439, which was 5% below the five-year average, according to the Office for National Statistics.
Last week, deaths were 8% below the five-year-average.
And 799 of these deaths involved Covid-19, 245 lower than the previous week."
I di think that we need to watch this "involved Covid" thing. There is a pretty fundamental difference between someone who dies of the side effects of Covid, even if already ill and those who die with Covid if it is not making them ill. On the present criteria I am not clear how we are ever likely to get to zero without the complete elimination of the virus.
Even if we eliminate Covid 100% from this island, but keep testing at current levels we can expect at least a death a day with Covid.
At 1.3m tests/day, with a 0.15% false positive rate, that's ~2,000 false positives a day. About 1% of the population dies in any given year (so 0.01*1/13 is the mean risk of a person dying within 28 days from any given point), so theoretically we can expect 1.5 daily deaths where the person has falsely tested positive within the past 28 days.
Obviously that assumes that those taking covid tests are an exact reflection of the population's wider demographics (which they aren't - lots are school children), however if the '2 free tests a week' thing comes to fruition then the number of tests will soar.
An interesting argument - fwiw I think FPs are only an issue with LFDs, hence the Gov't recommendation to follow +ve LFD with a PCR test. Also I'd wager FP results, particularly on PCR are likely a result of lab contamination - so they wouldn't be evenly distributed - you'll get a huge clump where a lab has fucked up then literally zero. That might average out at 0.15% though I suspect it'll be less.
Noone's going to be worrying about Covid too much if we're showing 1 death a day from it mind. We've still got a way to go to that yardstick though.
One interesting small point on NI is that the demographic adjustments have changed from a drift to nationalist more towards the growth of a less-committed 'middle'.
PB continues to be obsessed with Scotland, while the PM's lies come home to roost in Northern Ireland.
Varadkar and Coveney are the root cause of current Belfast theatre. The posh boys saw a sleeping dog and just kept poking it despite saner voices saying leave it.
No, it is Johnsons deal. We signed up to it, we need to keep our word.
I am surprised that so many PB Tories want to give in to rioters, when even a sit down protest in Bristol gets their goat.
Question - if NI is part of the UK's customs area then why does the UK government treat it as if it is not? It isn't just that you cannot ship products from GB to NI without making customs declarations. You have to set up your business differently if you plan to trade with NI.
The Ltd company I have just set up has VAT and EORI numbers. Part of the process followed asks if I am to be exporting (note the word) products to NI because if I am then I need a completely different EORI number (https://www.gov.uk/eori/eori-northern-ireland). My GB EORI number gives me no rights at all to "export" from GB to NI.
Philip's statements that NI is a fully integral part of the UK customs area is laughable bollocks.
Because of the Protocol. 🤦♂️
Legally de jure NI is part of the UK's territory. De facto it isn't because of the Protocol. What part of that are you failing to understand?
So now we've sorted out the de jure with Boris's deal, now we need to sort out the de facto. One step at a time. Invoke A16, "fix" it de facto, problem solved, game over.
Your basic problem (aside from the comedy arrogance which I think you deploy for effect) is that "invoke A16" isn't a solution.
As the UK government state, NI is not in the UK customs Union. Indeed there is no longer a UK customs union, just a GB one. De Jure the law is very clear that you cannot export from GB to NI without setting up as an exporter and following the legal process that is now UK law.
[Citation Needed]
Where does the UK state that NI is not in the UK Customs Union. Black and white. Not de facto policies due to laws that can be changed, but legally separate from the customs union.
The law can be whatever we like within our territory. We could require export to be declared from Liverpool to Manchester if we want, but its still our territory. The Withdrawal Agreement, the WTO, international law all confirms that NI is de jure part of the UK's customs union.
Our laws don't change that. Our laws can be changed.
The citation is in his post and the paperwork required since January to ship anything into Northern Ireland.
You of course don't actually do any real work so don't understand how the real world actually works nor do you have any idea what is required to ship something into Northern Ireland.
Hint if you go to the post office and send something to Northern Ireland you will be asked to fill in a customs declaration form. May I suggest you go there and double check.
My dog food supplier no longer sells to NI at all
Odd after the clown promised no new non tariff barriers and no border in the Irish Sea
I think it is very likely that Labour will beat the Tories this time out. As a Unionist I am much more interested in the overall situation between the groupings than how the vote is divided within them. I wish Sarwar every success in regaining votes and hopefully seats in Glasgow.
Douglas Ross is proving a bit rubbish, I notice SCons have put Ruth Davidson front and centre recently in this campaign.
A wise move.
Wasn’t Ross anointed by BJ & co? That and their rapid turnover in the ‘Union Unit’ indicates that they have a nose for talent like that Decca guy that rejected the Beatles. Of course there may not actually be any talent..
On today's Comres the Scottish Tories are on 23% on the constituency vote and 21% on the list.
Davidson got 22% on the constituency vote in 2016 and 22.9% on the list, so Ross is actually doing better than Davidson on the constituency vote at least
"RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom
The Withdrawal Agreement, as ratified by the EU, the RoI, the UK and as hosted on the EU's own website says it explicitly. Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom, there are no ifs or buts about that, that is international law. Checkmate.
"RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom
The Withdrawal Agreement, as ratified by the EU, the RoI, the UK and as hosted on the EU's own website says it explicitly. Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom, there are no ifs or buts about that, that is international law. Checkmate.
The article link please so we can see the date and the full article as let's be honest you have a habit (to say the least) of misquoting
But if that is the case why do the EU employ border guards at Belfast docks?
Heartbreakingly lovely. To revive a theme from last week, hiraeth for the whole planet. One of the greatest theme tunes ever written. How can a simple selection of sounds convey such longing and loneliness? How does music, more than any other medium, bypass the rational and analytical part of the brain and go straight to the emotional part? Perhaps because it is the most abstract of the arts. Perhaps because our defences aren't raised as they are to other media. Interestingly, I vaguely remember this subject was touched on in some length in one of the Dirk Gently books. Which almost brings us back to where we came in.
"RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom
The Withdrawal Agreement, as ratified by the EU, the RoI, the UK and as hosted on the EU's own website says it explicitly. Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom, there are no ifs or buts about that, that is international law. Checkmate.
The article link please so we can see the date and the full article as let's be honest you have a habit (to say the least) of misquoting
That is binding in international law. If you go to the WTO website as well they colour in NI as part of the UK in their maps. Yes we have a Protocol, yes we have laws, but internationally de jure Northern Ireland is part of our customs territory. Nothing has changed that, that is the last bit of law settled on that.
Have a look at the salaries of Housing Association Chief Executives. Some of these earn three times the amount the Prime Minister gets, all for providing the service of Social Housing, for which there will always be a permanent demand in this Country.
In order for Boris Johnson to resolve any money troubles he might have, I am quite content for him to resign as Prime Minister and take a job as the Chief Executive of a Housing Association. One stone, so many birds!
"Deaths registered in UK still below the five-year average The number of deaths registered in the UK in the week ending 26 March was 11,439, which was 5% below the five-year average, according to the Office for National Statistics.
Last week, deaths were 8% below the five-year-average.
And 799 of these deaths involved Covid-19, 245 lower than the previous week."
I di think that we need to watch this "involved Covid" thing. There is a pretty fundamental difference between someone who dies of the side effects of Covid, even if already ill and those who die with Covid if it is not making them ill. On the present criteria I am not clear how we are ever likely to get to zero without the complete elimination of the virus.
Even if we eliminate Covid 100% from this island, but keep testing at current levels we can expect at least a death a day with Covid.
At 1.3m tests/day, with a 0.15% false positive rate, that's ~2,000 false positives a day. About 1% of the population dies in any given year (so 0.01*1/13 is the mean risk of a person dying within 28 days from any given point), so theoretically we can expect 1.5 daily deaths where the person has falsely tested positive within the past 28 days.
Obviously that assumes that those taking covid tests are an exact reflection of the population's wider demographics (which they aren't - lots are school children), however if the '2 free tests a week' thing comes to fruition then the number of tests will soar.
An interesting argument - fwiw I think FPs are only an issue with LFDs, hence the Gov't recommendation to follow +ve LFD with a PCR test. Also I'd wager FP results, particularly on PCR are likely a result of lab contamination - so they wouldn't be evenly distributed - you'll get a huge clump where a lab has fucked up then literally zero. That might average out at 0.15% though I suspect it'll be less.
Noone's going to be worrying about Covid too much if we're showing 1 death a day from it mind. We've still got a way to go to that yardstick though.
Yep, I have to confess I have zero knowledge of the +ve LFD to -ve PCR flow wrt to someone dying within 28 days of the +ve LFD, logically they shouldn't be counted, but I suspect that they are.
The only case of a false positive I know of is when my grandmother (an obese near 90 year old) tested positive back in the autumn after taking a test for the ONS background prevalence study. We spent couple of days panicking, but then realised how unlikely it would have been for her to be completely asymptomatic give her health. The subsequent ONS test a week later luckily confirmed that she wasn't positive!
And yea\s, you're completely right - we're imminently about to be able to treat Covid like the flu, I was just pointing out a slight quirk that may prevent us from recording doughnut after doughnut on the dashboard.
Question - if NI is part of the UK's customs area then why does the UK government treat it as if it is not? It isn't just that you cannot ship products from GB to NI without making customs declarations. You have to set up your business differently if you plan to trade with NI.
The Ltd company I have just set up has VAT and EORI numbers. Part of the process followed asks if I am to be exporting (note the word) products to NI because if I am then I need a completely different EORI number (https://www.gov.uk/eori/eori-northern-ireland). My GB EORI number gives me no rights at all to "export" from GB to NI.
Philip's statements that NI is a fully integral part of the UK customs area is laughable bollocks.
Because of the Protocol. 🤦♂️
Legally de jure NI is part of the UK's territory. De facto it isn't because of the Protocol. What part of that are you failing to understand?
So now we've sorted out the de jure with Boris's deal, now we need to sort out the de facto. One step at a time. Invoke A16, "fix" it de facto, problem solved, game over.
Your basic problem (aside from the comedy arrogance which I think you deploy for effect) is that "invoke A16" isn't a solution.
As the UK government state, NI is not in the UK customs Union. Indeed there is no longer a UK customs union, just a GB one. De Jure the law is very clear that you cannot export from GB to NI without setting up as an exporter and following the legal process that is now UK law.
[Citation Needed]
Where does the UK state that NI is not in the UK Customs Union. Black and white. Not de facto policies due to laws that can be changed, but legally separate from the customs union.
The law can be whatever we like within our territory. We could require export to be declared from Liverpool to Manchester if we want, but its still our territory. The Withdrawal Agreement, the WTO, international law all confirms that NI is de jure part of the UK's customs union.
Our laws don't change that. Our laws can be changed.
The citation is in his post and the paperwork required since January to ship anything into Northern Ireland.
You of course don't actually do any real work so don't understand how the real world actually works nor do you have any idea what is required to ship something into Northern Ireland.
Hint if you go to the post office and send something to Northern Ireland you will be asked to fill in a customs declaration form. May I suggest you go there and double check.
0/10 try again.
That's our current law. That's not whose territory NI is in. 🤦♂️
Our current law could require declarations from Liverpool to Manchester, but that wouldn't make either Liverpool or Manchester leave our terrritory de jure.
According to the WTO and the Withdrawal Agreement whose territory is NI in? Its written down in black and white.
Northern Ireland requires EC Sales and Intrastat export declarations to the EU whereas the rest of the UK does not. Also boxes 2, 4, 8, 9 now deal with the EU as the rest of the world (No entry, RoW procedures) Interestingly we're keeping imports from the EU for the whole of the UK as an intrastat entry till the end of this year.
So far as de facto VAT, import and export concerns go Northern Ireland is more EU than UK.
Have a look at the salaries of Housing Association Chief Executives. Some of these earn three times the amount the Prime Minister gets, all for providing the service of Social Housing, for which there will always be a permanent demand in this Country.
In order for Boris Johnson to resolve any money troubles he might have, I am quite content for him to resign as Prime Minister and take a job as the Chief Executive of a Housing Association. One stone, so many birds!
"RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom
The Withdrawal Agreement, as ratified by the EU, the RoI, the UK and as hosted on the EU's own website says it explicitly. Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom, there are no ifs or buts about that, that is international law. Checkmate.
The article link please so we can see the date and the full article as let's be honest you have a habit (to say the least) of misquoting
That is binding in international law. If you go to the WTO website as well they colour in NI as part of the UK in their maps. Yes we have a Protocol, yes we have laws, but internationally de jure Northern Ireland is part of our customs territory. Nothing has changed that, that is the last bit of law settled on that.
You might want to read Article 5 of that document in a lot more detail than you clearly have (not)..
The devil is in the detail and you haven't any clear of the detail...
Just a thought but if the Labour are increasing in Scotland howuch worse does that make their UK wide polling figure look ahead of all the other elections.
Not much, if the polling is accurate.
Remember the collapse in Scotland when they tumbled from 42% of the vote to 24% in 2015 only impacted the GB share of the vote by the less than 1%.
So even if they poll 30% in Scotland then it won't make much difference to the headline GB share of the vote.
In fact Labour are polling in the mid 30s GB wide, and mid 20s in Scotland, you can argue they are doing better in the rest of GB than Scotland.
Scotland accounts for 8% - 9% of the GB electorate . On that basis, the decline in Labour's vote share there from 42% to circa 20% will have knocked circa 2% from its GB vote share.
"RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom
The Withdrawal Agreement, as ratified by the EU, the RoI, the UK and as hosted on the EU's own website says it explicitly. Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom, there are no ifs or buts about that, that is international law. Checkmate.
The article link please so we can see the date and the full article as let's be honest you have a habit (to say the least) of misquoting
That is binding in international law. If you go to the WTO website as well they colour in NI as part of the UK in their maps. Yes we have a Protocol, yes we have laws, but internationally de jure Northern Ireland is part of our customs territory. Nothing has changed that, that is the last bit of law settled on that.
You might want to read Article 5 of that document in a lot more detail than you clearly have (not)..
The devil is in the detail and you haven't any clear of the detail...
Philip is seldom troubled by detail, or indeed facts.
Have a look at the salaries of Housing Association Chief Executives. Some of these earn three times the amount the Prime Minister gets, all for providing the service of Social Housing, for which there will always be a permanent demand in this Country.
In order for Boris Johnson to resolve any money troubles he might have, I am quite content for him to resign as Prime Minister and take a job as the Chief Executive of a Housing Association. One stone, so many birds!
Too many birds has always been Boris' problem.
Although he calls them ‘opportunities’ rather than ‘problems’ in line with modern positive thinking.
Heartbreakingly lovely. To revive a theme from last week, hiraeth for the whole planet. One of the greatest theme tunes ever written. How can a simple selection of sounds convey such longing and loneliness? How does music, more than any other medium, bypass the rational and analytical part of the brain and go straight to the emotional part? Perhaps because it is the most abstract of the arts. Perhaps because our defences aren't raised as they are to other media. Interestingly, I vaguely remember this subject was touched on in some length in one of the Dirk Gently books. Which almost brings us back to where we came in.
On further research, it turns out this was written and first performed by the Eagles! Mind blown.
Have a look at the salaries of Housing Association Chief Executives. Some of these earn three times the amount the Prime Minister gets, all for providing the service of Social Housing, for which there will always be a permanent demand in this Country.
In order for Boris Johnson to resolve any money troubles he might have, I am quite content for him to resign as Prime Minister and take a job as the Chief Executive of a Housing Association. One stone, so many birds!
Boris could even have chosen to make his career as a headmaster in a large state school and be earning more than he is as UK PM (albeit he would not get Chequers or No 10)
"RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom
The Withdrawal Agreement, as ratified by the EU, the RoI, the UK and as hosted on the EU's own website says it explicitly. Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom, there are no ifs or buts about that, that is international law. Checkmate.
The article link please so we can see the date and the full article as let's be honest you have a habit (to say the least) of misquoting
That is binding in international law. If you go to the WTO website as well they colour in NI as part of the UK in their maps. Yes we have a Protocol, yes we have laws, but internationally de jure Northern Ireland is part of our customs territory. Nothing has changed that, that is the last bit of law settled on that.
You might want to read Article 5 of that document in a lot more detail than you clearly have (not)..
The devil is in the detail and you haven't any clear of the detail...
Philip is seldom troubled by detail, or indeed facts.
"RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom
The Withdrawal Agreement, as ratified by the EU, the RoI, the UK and as hosted on the EU's own website says it explicitly. Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom, there are no ifs or buts about that, that is international law. Checkmate.
The article link please so we can see the date and the full article as let's be honest you have a habit (to say the least) of misquoting
That is binding in international law. If you go to the WTO website as well they colour in NI as part of the UK in their maps. Yes we have a Protocol, yes we have laws, but internationally de jure Northern Ireland is part of our customs territory. Nothing has changed that, that is the last bit of law settled on that.
You might want to read Article 5 of that document in a lot more detail than you clearly have (not)..
The devil is in the detail and you haven't any clear of the detail...
None of Article 5 changes the fact that the NI is part of the UK's customs union.
Article 5 puts in place provisions that are currently in operation, which should be superseded by us invoking Article 16.
The fact that NI is part of our territory, combined with Article 16, squares the circle.
Comments
If they wish to continue doing them, they can do them in their territory. They don't get a say.
Any other qurestions?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55649016
It really would be best for the Welsh Tories if 'RT' remains out of sight.
I stand to be corrected though
I'm not sure that I could disagree with you more about Johnson's chess playing ability.
Glad we have that sorted.
Legally we can invoke A16 and unilaterally "fix" the checks. Under no circumstances should we admit to breaking the Protocol or the law, we'll say we're doing "technical fixes for security purposes" and move on. But we do so unilaterally, unless or until the EU wishes to get their hands dirty and get involved.
If its on the UK to fix it we can fix it however we choose. If they're not getting involved in the fix, they don't get a choice or a say in how we fix it, so we maximise our own self-interest.
Meanwhile a bus driver was lucky not to be killed last night.
And, no, I don't have any answers either - any more than anyone else on here does.
Will drop in later.
Wind and rain back - which rather scuppers my gardening plans. Bother.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
May's deal left NI legally in the EU's customs territory. Boris's left it legally in the UK's but with a Protocol. That's a massive difference.
Agreeing to the Protocol in exchange for the EU agreeing to the UK having its own customs territory was like sacrificing a pawn to capture the queen.
If we had May's deal now we'd be f**ked. The EU could enforce the checks as it would be their territory to handle. They can't anymore. We've agreed to a Protocol, subject to it not causing security concerns. Since it is causing security concerns (which was foreseeable) we can invoke that to get out of the Protocol. Checkmate.
You may not like it, but its an answer.
Drop the checks, stop fucking around, and deal with this in fresh negotiations. Until fresh negotiations reach an outcome, there's no checks by anyone.
Again, you may not like it, but its an answer. The best answer all along.
Surely it is unsurprising that Politicians are willing to go against the name of their party if their supporters change position. I mean the lib Dems campaigned to ignore a democratic vote their supporters didn't like the result of.
grasp....
Or do you recommend the British Government creates a law that allows the NI police to stop the EU border officers from doing their job?
Unless someone, maybe, has a better reason for this contradiction
If anyone can come up with a better solution than what I've said then lets give that a try. If you can't, then don't let the perfect be the enemy of 'it'll have to do because there's nothing better'.
As for doing it in the UK's territory, absolutely I'm saying they're not permitted to do it in our territory. That's part and parcel of the territory being de jure the UK's, and the Protocol being "fixed" by A16.
And they can't come back and operate without the UK's co-operation. So we withdraw that and say they can't operate, what are they going to do?
If Scottish and Northern Irish nationalists can push to leave the UK post Brexit as they voted Remain, then Scottish Unionists in the Borders can push to stay in the UK if there is ever a Yes vote in a Scottish indyref2 and the Borders voted No
"Deaths registered in UK still below the five-year average
The number of deaths registered in the UK in the week ending 26 March was 11,439, which was 5% below the five-year average, according to the Office for National Statistics.
Last week, deaths were 8% below the five-year-average.
And 799 of these deaths involved Covid-19, 245 lower than the previous week."
I di think that we need to watch this "involved Covid" thing. There is a pretty fundamental difference between someone who dies of the side effects of Covid, even if already ill and those who die with Covid if it is not making them ill. On the present criteria I am not clear how we are ever likely to get to zero without the complete elimination of the virus.
Anyway, have stuff to do.
Have a nice day all.
Of course, BoJo could go back on his word, in the short term there wouldn't be much the EU could do. But this isn't a one- off game of chess, it's a never-ending tournament with a hundred players who are also spectators. Will the USA or TPP be more likely to sign a deal with the UK if we weasel out of the plain meaning of the TCA?
BoJo lies. We all know that, and sometimes that low cunning is what you need in a leader. But his usual approach when the lies get too tangled is to cut loose, find a different employer/constituency/mistress and start again. For the first time in a long time, he can't do that. If I were a God who wished to punish a hubristic mortal, I'm not sure I could devise a better punishment.
The Ltd company I have just set up has VAT and EORI numbers. Part of the process followed asks if I am to be exporting (note the word) products to NI because if I am then I need a completely different EORI number (https://www.gov.uk/eori/eori-northern-ireland). My GB EORI number gives me no rights at all to "export" from GB to NI.
Philip's statements that NI is a fully integral part of the UK customs area is laughable bollocks.
If its not safe for their staff to operate, then that is legitimate grounds for A16. And we should not permit anyone to interfere with GB/NI trade ever again until this is resolved to everybody's satisfaction.
Either they are hitting my area early, or I'm going to have an avalanche of paper at the end of this.
Edit: On Scotland, there will be areas that vote No in any SindyRef, but I cannot see many wanting partition arrangements.
"(William Gladstone) spent his declining years trying to guess the answer to the Irish question; unfortunately, whenever he was getting warm, the Irish secretly changed the question”.
Statement of fact: Ireland is a very complex place politically. Problems there, whether the fault of the Eire government, the Unionists, the British government, the IRA, various so-called loyalist thugs, or the EU will not be easily solved by a (well meaning perhaps) PB obsessed keyboard warrior
Legally de jure NI is part of the UK's territory. De facto it isn't because of the Protocol. What part of that are you failing to understand?
So now we've sorted out the de jure with Boris's deal, now we need to sort out the de facto. One step at a time. Invoke A16, "fix" it de facto, problem solved, game over.
Mine is an uncomfortable fudge, but so was the GFA. It is what NI needs. It doesn't need clean and perfect pristine border checks, that's the last think NI needs and the last thing anyone should want. It needs down and dirty compromises. It needs a blind eye turning at appropriate moments. It needs an acceptance that there's two communities that need to be satisfied, not one.
It's not monitoring every crossing of the border (for which the technology doesn't exist) but licensing the relatively small number of firms who are responsible for 95%+ of the cross-border trade.
Always the right solution. If the other 5% cause some smuggling then shit happens. There's always been smuggling in NI. Its how the sectarians on both sides make their money, so nobodies going to war to prevent that happening.
Newsflash: democracy wins.
Brexit has happened. Now people need to get off their high horses and look for a solution that maintains peace in Northern Ireland. That involves compromise.
As the UK government state, NI is not in the UK customs Union. Indeed there is no longer a UK customs union, just a GB one. De Jure the law is very clear that you cannot export from GB to NI without setting up as an exporter and following the legal process that is now UK law.
https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1380097062742728708
https://order-order.com/2021/04/08/greens-own-anti-gypsy-incursion-leaflet/
If they refuse to have sensible discussions we set aside the protocol - as we have the right to do - and leave it up to them to decide if they want to put border posts up.
De facto there is the protocol to deal with. De facto you can not export from GB to NI without following the process that is now UK law, but that is UK law despite NI being de jure UK, not because of NI being de jure EU. Change UK law to cease to require these checks and that's on us, since its our territory.
A manufacturer self-declares that there will be no onward export into the EU, so there are no checks needed between NI and GB.
And here we are...
Plus - the pretty much 50/50 split between Indy and unionism. There must be people voting for the SNP purely because they are seen as representing Scotland strongly within the UK
In which case we do whatever we please and sod it, there'll be consequences. Learn to live with it.
I acceded to your earlier claim that I was talking nonsense and the national identity- sectarian link had been left in the 1980s, and accepted your "off topic" as such. I am less inclined, now you have demonstrated your 'scratch the surface' partisanship (and I consider my words carefully) in this post, and that you accept Philip Thompson and others' wholly uninformed commentary because it fits your narrative.
My point was not at all partisan from the point of picking sides with Unionists or Nationalists. I was suggesting that Boris Johnson (and Mrs May before him) have even less understanding than I do, and Johnson in particular, should be treading a lot more carefully than he has to date.
At 1.3m tests/day, with a 0.15% false positive rate, that's ~2,000 false positives a day. About 1% of the population dies in any given year (so 0.01*1/13 is the mean risk of a person dying within 28 days from any given point), so theoretically we can expect 1.5 daily deaths where the person has falsely tested positive within the past 28 days.
Obviously that assumes that those taking covid tests are an exact reflection of the population's wider demographics (which they aren't - lots are school children), however if the '2 free tests a week' thing comes to fruition then the number of tests will soar.
One interesting small point on NI is that the demographic adjustments have changed from a drift to nationalist more towards the growth of a less-committed 'middle'.
https://twitter.com/rtetwip/status/838035774809387013
Where does the UK state that NI is not in the UK Customs Union. Black and white. Not de facto policies due to laws that can be changed, but legally separate from the customs union.
The law can be whatever we like within our territory. We could require export to be declared from Liverpool to Manchester if we want, but its still our territory. The Withdrawal Agreement, the WTO, international law all confirms that NI is de jure part of the UK's customs union.
Our laws don't change that. Our laws can be changed.
However, it seems from a high level view that the bedrock of the SNP has been the Central belt, which has historically been Labour. If Labour is now seen as more viable, surely Tory and LD voters in the Central belt will think more seriously about switching to Labour to defeat the SNP
You of course don't actually do any real work so don't understand how the real world actually works nor do you have any idea what is required to ship something into Northern Ireland.
Hint if you go to the post office and send something to Northern Ireland you will be asked to fill in a customs declaration form. May I suggest you go there and double check.
That's our current law. That's not whose territory NI is in. 🤦♂️
Our current law could require declarations from Liverpool to Manchester, but that wouldn't make either Liverpool or Manchester leave our terrritory de jure.
According to the WTO and the Withdrawal Agreement whose territory is NI in? Its written down in black and white.
It may be that I have misremembered, but I thought people on here were very critical of him last time he stood.
But he looks like a better than average politician (even if I don't particularly agree with him)
Also it's a shame that Vanilla doesn't (unlike other software) have an ignore function to allow you to ignore people best left ignored.
---------------------
Over the last year Labour have worked to radically overhaul the election operation which lost four general elections in a row.
Attempting to create an impressive and well-funded campaign force, that will give them a clear advantage unless we act today.
Right now, Labour are able to commit more money, more activists, more staff and more advertising in the areas that matter most.
And alarmingly this pattern is not isolated to next month’s elections.
They are in fact relentlessly targeting our new MPs to wipe out our majority.
And the hard reality is that, because these MPs hold seats we haven’t held in generations, they simply don’t have the local campaign resources needed to halt Labour’s advances.
To reverse their advantage and safeguard our majority I need you to become a founding donor of our Elections Fund today >>
With you behind us I know we’ll prevail in protecting our MPs and continuing to elect local Conservatives.
Allowing us to build back better from this pandemic, level up every region of the UK and seize the opportunities of Brexit.
Noone's going to be worrying about Covid too much if we're showing 1 death a day from it mind. We've still got a way to go to that yardstick though.
The Alliance are the LDs sister party
Odd after the clown promised no new non tariff barriers and no border in the Irish Sea
I thank you...
(Could be worse, could be Derbyshire, who are not enjoying facing
Gloucestershire’s bowlers who were stolen byWarwickshire.)Edit - and following that, Stoneman’s expression was a Ryan.
European Parliament may be having a Debate on Sofagate.
Davidson got 22% on the constituency vote in 2016 and 22.9% on the list, so Ross is actually doing better than Davidson on the constituency vote at least
"RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom
The Withdrawal Agreement, as ratified by the EU, the RoI, the UK and as hosted on the EU's own website says it explicitly. Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom, there are no ifs or buts about that, that is international law. Checkmate.
But if that is the case why do the EU employ border guards at Belfast docks?
One of the greatest theme tunes ever written. How can a simple selection of sounds convey such longing and loneliness? How does music, more than any other medium, bypass the rational and analytical part of the brain and go straight to the emotional part? Perhaps because it is the most abstract of the arts. Perhaps because our defences aren't raised as they are to other media.
Interestingly, I vaguely remember this subject was touched on in some length in one of the Dirk Gently books. Which almost brings us back to where we came in.
Sounds kinky...
That is binding in international law. If you go to the WTO website as well they colour in NI as part of the UK in their maps. Yes we have a Protocol, yes we have laws, but internationally de jure Northern Ireland is part of our customs territory. Nothing has changed that, that is the last bit of law settled on that.
Yep, I have to confess I have zero knowledge of the +ve LFD to -ve PCR flow wrt to someone dying within 28 days of the +ve LFD, logically they shouldn't be counted, but I suspect that they are.
The only case of a false positive I know of is when my grandmother (an obese near 90 year old) tested positive back in the autumn after taking a test for the ONS background prevalence study. We spent couple of days panicking, but then realised how unlikely it would have been for her to be completely asymptomatic give her health. The subsequent ONS test a week later luckily confirmed that she wasn't positive!
And yea\s, you're completely right - we're imminently about to be able to treat Covid like the flu, I was just pointing out a slight quirk that may prevent us from recording doughnut after doughnut on the dashboard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNT-JY66Lh4
Edit: okay on a re-listen it does.
Superb series.
Interestingly we're keeping imports from the EU for the whole of the UK as an intrastat entry till the end of this year.
So far as de facto VAT, import and export concerns go Northern Ireland is more EU than UK.
The devil is in the detail and you haven't any clear of the detail...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10313631/four-school-heads-earn-200k-year/
Article 5 puts in place provisions that are currently in operation, which should be superseded by us invoking Article 16.
The fact that NI is part of our territory, combined with Article 16, squares the circle.