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How will Boris be judged in future polling questions like this? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited March 30 in General
imageHow will Boris be judged in future polling questions like this? – politicalbetting.com

Above is some interesting polling from Ipsos – a question that the firm puts from time to time and no doubt at some time in the future Boris will be on the list.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,560
    Test
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600
    Well he got Brexit done, so 52% will be happy with him.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,962
    Third, again!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,962
    The bad job table suggests they mostly work their way down the list the longer they have been out of office.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,317
    FPT:
    Betting Post

    F1: was contemplating this yesterday and decided to back it.

    Ladbrokes has a winner without Red Bull/Mercedes market. McLaren and Ferrari are 1.73 and 2.2 respectively. AlphaTauri are 8, 8.5 with boost, and I've backed them.

    Gasly was 6th in qualifying but losing his front wing compromised his whole race. Tsunoda fell victim to the same qualifying complacency as Perez but came back to score some points on his debut.

    I think they're all pretty similar in pace terms, and 8/8.5 is far too long.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,153
    IanB2 said:

    The bad job table suggests they mostly work their way down the list the longer they have been out of office.

    Makes sense I guess. Almost by definition, they’d be unpopular when they left office.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600

    FPT:
    Betting Post

    F1: was contemplating this yesterday and decided to back it.

    Ladbrokes has a winner without Red Bull/Mercedes market. McLaren and Ferrari are 1.73 and 2.2 respectively. AlphaTauri are 8, 8.5 with boost, and I've backed them.

    Gasly was 6th in qualifying but losing his front wing compromised his whole race. Tsunoda fell victim to the same qualifying complacency as Perez but came back to score some points on his debut.

    I think they're all pretty similar in pace terms, and 8/8.5 is far too long.

    That’s a good shout, definitely value there as a trading bet, although McLaren are rightly clear favourites. Too early in the season for anyone to be odds-on for third place.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 37,509
    edited March 30
    IanB2 said:

    The bad job table suggests they mostly work their way down the list the longer they have been out of office.

    Adding the figures up suggests a high proportion of responses consisted of ‘who the f*** was he?’
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,317
    Mr. Sandpit, it does feel a weird bet to make, but AlphaTauri's impressive performance is undeniable, though not reflected in the first result.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 9,508
    FPT: Arguments about how to chop up England are micro level debates - we need strategic level planning first. What kind of UK is sustainable in the 21st Century? With Scotland, Norniron, Wales and now chunks of England increasingly restless, its obvious that we need to rethink the monolith that is this "united" kingdom.

    LibDem policy is federalism. A position I have believed in for decades. Devolve to the nations as much power as possible, leaving state-wide competence only in things like national defence and federal infrastructure.

    You solve the issue of "England will be too big and dominate the others" by devolving most powers away from the federal level. What England chooses to do with its own affairs won't affect the other nations that much if enough power is devolved to them.

    On topic, the Tories and especially Boris won't tackle these issues. He/they like the me me me approach where never mind debates about governance its all about me and mine. Does it matter that we can't realistically have a full service hospital in every town? No - we want it HERE and not THERE.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 3,172
    Eden has a positive rating. Eden.

    The table suggests that, largely, the country collectively forgets leaders who were judged to have failed, but successful leaders are referred to by future leaders, and so have their reputation endlessly boosted.

    Will we have political leaders calling back to the time of Boris as one to emulate?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966
    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    O/t again, but maybe inspired by today's news and recollections how many males here can recall occasions from their schooldays where they did things which might be considered, in a different time, as 'abuse'?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 9,508
    Sandpit said:

    Well he got Brexit done, so 52% will be happy with him.

    This isn't long term sustainable because nobody knows what Brexit was supposed to be once you get past the slogans.

    The harsh light of day for most people will be a country that has a worse economy - fewer exports, balance of payments crisis - less choice at more cost, and fewer opportunities in the world having made ourselves irrelevant in global politics.

    Most of this hasn't played out yet, but its there. We're already realising that its now not viable to maintain large chunks of our exports to the EU, with "just sell them elsewhere" already not viable. We've postponed the imposition of inbound checks due to wazzocks but they will eventually happen at which point we reduce what we can import and increase the costs.

    Less stuff at more cost isn't what people expected. Less jobs and less rights - the inevitable Tory response - isn't what people expected. And our position in the world? Yes, we can join the Trans Pacific thing as a long-way detached addendum, but we're hardly relevant to it. Partnerships and alliances are the way that stuff gets done, not saying "we're exceptional, do what we want".

    A Britain less relevant, less competitive, more expensive - isn't what people expected. The whole point was more prosperity not less. The honeymoon won't last as reality sets in. That the government and their parrots are so utterly blind to the real crises their idiocy has created won't serve them well - even if you disagree with my analysis of Britain cast adrift, their stupidity when it comes to the actual departure deal is something that business knows is shit and only Philip disagrees with.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,317
    F1: impressive snippet on Perez fixing his car:
    https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/1376629161981325312
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 8,923
    Sandpit said:

    Well he got Brexit done, so 52% will be happy with him.

    That number has been diminishing ever since 2016.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 2,790

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    O/t again, but maybe inspired by today's news and recollections how many males here can recall occasions from their schooldays where they did things which might be considered, in a different time, as 'abuse'?

    Bullying was rife in my school in the 60's
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 3,172
    The other interesting one is Attlee. I wonder how many would identify him as PM when the NHS was established?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,568
    All that poll shows is that people don’t have a clue about history.

    Actual ranking is as follows:

    1. Churchill
    2. Thatcher
    3. Attlee
    4. Macmillan
    5. Blair
    6. Wilson
    7. Heath
    8. Major
    9. Brown
    10. Callaghan
    11. May
    12. Douglas-Home
    13. Johnson
    14. Eden
  • MattWMattW Posts: 6,923
    edited March 30
    I'm not really convinced by this question at all.

    The Right Hand column first 10 is as dear as dammit a ranking by recency of time in office, so surely this need derating by either "PMs you experienced" or "Rose Tinted Spectacles"?

    Perhaps I am missing something.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 3,172
    edited March 30

    All that poll shows is that people don’t have a clue about history.

    Actual ranking is as follows:

    1. Churchill
    2. Thatcher
    3. Attlee
    4. Macmillan
    5. Blair
    6. Wilson
    7. Heath
    8. Major
    9. Brown
    10. Callaghan
    11. May
    12. Douglas-Home
    13. Johnson
    14. Eden

    Cameron?

    Off the scale, perhaps, but in which direction?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600
    edited March 30

    FPT: Arguments about how to chop up England are micro level debates - we need strategic level planning first. What kind of UK is sustainable in the 21st Century? With Scotland, Norniron, Wales and now chunks of England increasingly restless, its obvious that we need to rethink the monolith that is this "united" kingdom.

    LibDem policy is federalism. A position I have believed in for decades. Devolve to the nations as much power as possible, leaving state-wide competence only in things like national defence and federal infrastructure.

    You solve the issue of "England will be too big and dominate the others" by devolving most powers away from the federal level. What England chooses to do with its own affairs won't affect the other nations that much if enough power is devolved to them.

    On topic, the Tories and especially Boris won't tackle these issues. He/they like the me me me approach where never mind debates about governance its all about me and mine. Does it matter that we can't realistically have a full service hospital in every town? No - we want it HERE and not THERE.

    That was quite the overnight discussion on the last thread.

    Any solution has to involve the creation of an English Parliament, and for the devolved Parliaments to be responsible for raising the majority of their own taxes, through borrowing if necessary, without reliance on a block grant from the U.K. government as they do now.

    The discussion then becomes what to do with the slimmed-down federal U.K. government, responsible for foreign policy, defence, federal law, Treasury, and national debt? You’d want many fewer MPs, perhaps two from each county, and a very much reduced Lords.

    Maybe appointments to the Lords could be for a single 10 year term, and made by each of the First Ministers? You’d want them to replicate the existing setup with regard to keep the elected Parliament and executive honest while not being hyper-partisan, as they would be if elected directly.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966
    Blair and Eden both started foreign wars but have vastly different positions on the list. Wilson kept us out of one, at, AIUI, some cost in personal friendship and is also below Blair.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,568

    All that poll shows is that people don’t have a clue about history.

    Actual ranking is as follows:

    1. Churchill
    2. Thatcher
    3. Attlee
    4. Macmillan
    5. Blair
    6. Wilson
    7. Heath
    8. Major
    9. Brown
    10. Callaghan
    11. May
    12. Douglas-Home
    13. Johnson
    14. Eden

    Cameron?

    Off the scale, perhaps, but in which election?
    Bugger. I knew I’d missed one.
    Between Wilson and Heath.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,455
    edited March 30
    There has been a number of films in recent times, notably The Darkest Hour, which have portrayed Churchill very favourably and probably helped his score but the clearest trend in the charts is that the great British public don't remember their politicians very well and like them even less. The badly list in particular is almost a time line.

    It would be interesting to see how the contributors of PB who by definition have way more than the normal interest in politics would vote. I suspect Attlee in particular would do a lot better but that Thatcher would probably be number 1, possibly of both lists!

    Edit, on catching up with the thread I see @Gardenwalker has already given us a list. Apologies.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,568
    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Arguments about how to chop up England are micro level debates - we need strategic level planning first. What kind of UK is sustainable in the 21st Century? With Scotland, Norniron, Wales and now chunks of England increasingly restless, its obvious that we need to rethink the monolith that is this "united" kingdom.

    LibDem policy is federalism. A position I have believed in for decades. Devolve to the nations as much power as possible, leaving state-wide competence only in things like national defence and federal infrastructure.

    You solve the issue of "England will be too big and dominate the others" by devolving most powers away from the federal level. What England chooses to do with its own affairs won't affect the other nations that much if enough power is devolved to them.

    On topic, the Tories and especially Boris won't tackle these issues. He/they like the me me me approach where never mind debates about governance its all about me and mine. Does it matter that we can't realistically have a full service hospital in every town? No - we want it HERE and not THERE.

    That was quite the overnight discussion on the last thread.

    Any solution has to involve the creation of an English Parliament, and for the devolved Parliaments to be responsible for raising the majority of their own taxes, through borrowing if necessary, without reliance on a block grant from the U.K. government as they do now.

    The discussion then becomes what to do with the slimmed-down federal U.K. government, responsible for foreign policy, defence, federal law and the existing national debt? You’d want many fewer MPs, perhaps two from each county, and a very much reduced Lords.

    Maybe appointments to the Lords could be for a single 10 year term, and made by each of the First Ministers? You’d want them to replicate the existing setup with regard to keep the elected Parliament and executive honest while not being hyper-partisan, as they would be if elected directly.
    But what are you going to do about the English FM versus U.K. PM problem.

    We need a name for this.
    The England-as-Prussia conundrum.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966
    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Arguments about how to chop up England are micro level debates - we need strategic level planning first. What kind of UK is sustainable in the 21st Century? With Scotland, Norniron, Wales and now chunks of England increasingly restless, its obvious that we need to rethink the monolith that is this "united" kingdom.

    LibDem policy is federalism. A position I have believed in for decades. Devolve to the nations as much power as possible, leaving state-wide competence only in things like national defence and federal infrastructure.

    You solve the issue of "England will be too big and dominate the others" by devolving most powers away from the federal level. What England chooses to do with its own affairs won't affect the other nations that much if enough power is devolved to them.

    On topic, the Tories and especially Boris won't tackle these issues. He/they like the me me me approach where never mind debates about governance its all about me and mine. Does it matter that we can't realistically have a full service hospital in every town? No - we want it HERE and not THERE.

    That was quite the overnight discussion on the last thread.

    Any solution has to involve the creation of an English Parliament, and for the devolved Parliaments to be responsible for raising the majority of their own taxes, through borrowing if necessary, without reliance on a block grant from the U.K. government as they do now.

    The discussion then becomes what to do with the slimmed-down federal U.K. government, responsible for foreign policy, defence, federal law and the existing national debt? You’d want many fewer MPs, perhaps two from each county, and a very much reduced Lords.

    Maybe appointments to the Lords could be for a single 10 year term, and made by each of the First Ministers? You’d want them to replicate the existing setup with regard to keep the elected Parliament and executive honest while not being hyper-partisan, as they would be if elected directly.
    I seem to recall a plan for 15 year terms for 'Lords' with elections for 1/3rd of the seats every 5 years.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,754
    There is tremendous recency bias, but also the striking thing is how even the opinions are on most of them (the exception being Churchill, and that is just unsophisticated blitz spirit). Mrs Thatcher is net +9, so less than Harold Wilson at +16, Tony Blair net zero etc.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,776

    All that poll shows is that people don’t have a clue about history.

    Actual ranking is as follows:

    1. Churchill
    2. Thatcher
    3. Attlee
    4. Macmillan
    5. Blair
    6. Wilson
    7. Heath
    8. Major
    9. Brown
    10. Callaghan
    11. May
    12. Douglas-Home
    13. Johnson
    14. Eden

    Is Cameron that dead to you?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,776

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    Will be trying out the pheromone lure for Emperor Moths today - conditions look perfect. Will let you know how I get on. Pictures of these magnificent critters (hopefully) if successful.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 26,443
    The container ship community is yet to comment.

    https://twitter.com/john_cope/status/1376158011492864004?s=21
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,776

    Sandpit said:

    Well he got Brexit done, so 52% will be happy with him.

    That number has been diminishing ever since 2016.
    The EU have been doing their best recently to boost that number with replacements....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,455
    FWIW my top 3 would be
    Thatcher
    Churchill
    Attlee

    My bottom 3 would
    Eden
    May
    Brown.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    Will be trying out the pheromone lure for Emperor Moths today - conditions look perfect. Will let you know how I get on. Pictures of these magnificent critters (hopefully) if successful.
    Saw several butterflies on my walk yesterday. First I've seen this year.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600

    F1: impressive snippet on Perez fixing his car:
    https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/1376629161981325312

    That was impressive, doubly so given that he is new to the car. One advantage of having an experienced driver, many would have parked it and got out - and not scored 10 points!

    I think it was Ant Davidson who said that learning a new car was like a pilot learning a new type of plane. They have hundreds of pages of manuals to be learned, and were expected to know the drills by heart for various contingencies and emergencies. Some teams make a replica steering wheel, which works with a real F1 ECU in a home-based simulator, so they can spend dozens of hours pressing all the buttons!
  • LindonLightLindonLight Posts: 96
    edited March 30

    All that poll shows is that people don’t have a clue about history.

    Actual ranking is as follows:

    1. Church [... edit]

    ? "Actual Ranking" ? = your personal favourites you mean?!! At least if you're going to repost your own ranking please don't call it 'actual ranking' as that's somewhat misleading.

    Can someone bung up the chart if you detract the right hand column from the left? I haven't the time right now.

    This question, or its equivalent, is regularly asked of former US Presidents and I think it's an interesting poll. It also shows how dynamic and divisive someone like Thatcher was. Similarly Tony Blair.

    It's arguably better to be hot or cold than lukewarm. At least they made an impact. Boris will be impactful. An interesting table is therefore to total up both columns.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 3,172
    I think the figures are clearer if you calculate the Good Leader Ratio = Good Job / Bad Job.

    Then you have:
    Churchill 7.88
    Attlee 3.00
    Macmillan 2.40
    Wilson 2.14
    Thatcher 1.26
    Callaghan 1.21
    Eden 1.14
    Douglas-Home 1.08
    Blair 1.00
    Heath 0.90
    Major 0.83
    Brown 0.65
    Cameron 0.61
    May 0.49

    I suspect Johnson's scores would be similar to Thatcher's. Will Starmer ever place?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Arguments about how to chop up England are micro level debates - we need strategic level planning first. What kind of UK is sustainable in the 21st Century? With Scotland, Norniron, Wales and now chunks of England increasingly restless, its obvious that we need to rethink the monolith that is this "united" kingdom.

    LibDem policy is federalism. A position I have believed in for decades. Devolve to the nations as much power as possible, leaving state-wide competence only in things like national defence and federal infrastructure.

    You solve the issue of "England will be too big and dominate the others" by devolving most powers away from the federal level. What England chooses to do with its own affairs won't affect the other nations that much if enough power is devolved to them.

    On topic, the Tories and especially Boris won't tackle these issues. He/they like the me me me approach where never mind debates about governance its all about me and mine. Does it matter that we can't realistically have a full service hospital in every town? No - we want it HERE and not THERE.

    That was quite the overnight discussion on the last thread.

    Any solution has to involve the creation of an English Parliament, and for the devolved Parliaments to be responsible for raising the majority of their own taxes, through borrowing if necessary, without reliance on a block grant from the U.K. government as they do now.

    The discussion then becomes what to do with the slimmed-down federal U.K. government, responsible for foreign policy, defence, federal law and the existing national debt? You’d want many fewer MPs, perhaps two from each county, and a very much reduced Lords.

    Maybe appointments to the Lords could be for a single 10 year term, and made by each of the First Ministers? You’d want them to replicate the existing setup with regard to keep the elected Parliament and executive honest while not being hyper-partisan, as they would be if elected directly.
    But what are you going to do about the English FM versus U.K. PM problem.

    We need a name for this.
    The England-as-Prussia conundrum.
    There isn’t a problem, as there’s little overlap in policy areas and each are accountable only to their own Parliaments. Sure, there will be times when they represent different parties, as happens already with different local jurisdictions.

    The division of powers does need to be formalised though, and in a clearer way than with the current devolved administrations.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,568
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Arguments about how to chop up England are micro level debates - we need strategic level planning first. What kind of UK is sustainable in the 21st Century? With Scotland, Norniron, Wales and now chunks of England increasingly restless, its obvious that we need to rethink the monolith that is this "united" kingdom.

    LibDem policy is federalism. A position I have believed in for decades. Devolve to the nations as much power as possible, leaving state-wide competence only in things like national defence and federal infrastructure.

    You solve the issue of "England will be too big and dominate the others" by devolving most powers away from the federal level. What England chooses to do with its own affairs won't affect the other nations that much if enough power is devolved to them.

    On topic, the Tories and especially Boris won't tackle these issues. He/they like the me me me approach where never mind debates about governance its all about me and mine. Does it matter that we can't realistically have a full service hospital in every town? No - we want it HERE and not THERE.

    That was quite the overnight discussion on the last thread.

    Any solution has to involve the creation of an English Parliament, and for the devolved Parliaments to be responsible for raising the majority of their own taxes, through borrowing if necessary, without reliance on a block grant from the U.K. government as they do now.

    The discussion then becomes what to do with the slimmed-down federal U.K. government, responsible for foreign policy, defence, federal law and the existing national debt? You’d want many fewer MPs, perhaps two from each county, and a very much reduced Lords.

    Maybe appointments to the Lords could be for a single 10 year term, and made by each of the First Ministers? You’d want them to replicate the existing setup with regard to keep the elected Parliament and executive honest while not being hyper-partisan, as they would be if elected directly.
    But what are you going to do about the English FM versus U.K. PM problem.

    We need a name for this.
    The England-as-Prussia conundrum.
    There isn’t a problem, as there’s little overlap in policy areas and each are accountable only to their own Parliaments. Sure, there will be times when they represent different parties, as happens already with different local jurisdictions.

    The division of powers does need to be formalised though, and in a clearer way than with the current devolved administrations.
    The problem is that a FM representing 90% of the U.K. will not “stay in their lane”.

    He or she will be structurally incentivised to undermine the U.K. PM and thereby the U.K. as a whole.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 6,681
    DavidL said:

    FWIW my top 3 would be
    Thatcher
    Churchill
    Attlee

    My bottom 3 would
    Eden
    May
    Brown.

    Cameron is our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. Brown saved the world after the global financial crisis. Churchill is there surely for his wartime administration and not his 1950s term. In taking us into Europe, perhaps Heath was more significant than most!

    But none of them showed Boris's casual disregard for truth, British institutions and democracy itself. Boris is sui generis.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 6,923
    Feeling rather embarrassed for Kieran.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 9,508

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Arguments about how to chop up England are micro level debates - we need strategic level planning first. What kind of UK is sustainable in the 21st Century? With Scotland, Norniron, Wales and now chunks of England increasingly restless, its obvious that we need to rethink the monolith that is this "united" kingdom.

    LibDem policy is federalism. A position I have believed in for decades. Devolve to the nations as much power as possible, leaving state-wide competence only in things like national defence and federal infrastructure.

    You solve the issue of "England will be too big and dominate the others" by devolving most powers away from the federal level. What England chooses to do with its own affairs won't affect the other nations that much if enough power is devolved to them.

    On topic, the Tories and especially Boris won't tackle these issues. He/they like the me me me approach where never mind debates about governance its all about me and mine. Does it matter that we can't realistically have a full service hospital in every town? No - we want it HERE and not THERE.

    That was quite the overnight discussion on the last thread.

    Any solution has to involve the creation of an English Parliament, and for the devolved Parliaments to be responsible for raising the majority of their own taxes, through borrowing if necessary, without reliance on a block grant from the U.K. government as they do now.

    The discussion then becomes what to do with the slimmed-down federal U.K. government, responsible for foreign policy, defence, federal law and the existing national debt? You’d want many fewer MPs, perhaps two from each county, and a very much reduced Lords.

    Maybe appointments to the Lords could be for a single 10 year term, and made by each of the First Ministers? You’d want them to replicate the existing setup with regard to keep the elected Parliament and executive honest while not being hyper-partisan, as they would be if elected directly.
    But what are you going to do about the English FM versus U.K. PM problem.

    We need a name for this.
    The England-as-Prussia conundrum.
    If power has been thoroughly devolved then it won't matter that much. Yes, Foreign Policy and Defence are retained. Yes the overall federal budget though very little spent federally. Yes strategic infrastructure such as transport, power and key industry - I'd have all of these spun off into StateCo enterprises as done by France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy etc etc.

    Remove the need for a vast Westminster and you remove the need to renovate at vast expense the Palace to be once again fit for the 19th century. As a national building that people can tour around it is fine.

    Everything else goes to the national parliaments with their own assembly. With little overlap between even the English First Minister and the UK President, there is little conflict. Ideally we would bring in all of the Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies who also benefit from UK foreign and defence policy. Let them self govern as now, but with formal representation to help shape their own defence policy.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,568
    edited March 30
    isam said:
    Cameron trashing his reputation.

    The trip — a year after the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi by Saudi agents — was criticised at the time by Amnesty International, which said the former prime minister's attendance would be “interpreted as showing support for the Saudi regime” despite its “appalling human rights record”.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,455

    DavidL said:

    FWIW my top 3 would be
    Thatcher
    Churchill
    Attlee

    My bottom 3 would
    Eden
    May
    Brown.

    Cameron is our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. Brown saved the world after the global financial crisis. Churchill is there surely for his wartime administration and not his 1950s term. In taking us into Europe, perhaps Heath was more significant than most!

    But none of them showed Boris's casual disregard for truth, British institutions and democracy itself. Boris is sui generis.
    I seriously thought about doing a top 4 and putting Cameron on it but I thought what's the point in being so needlessly provocative.
    Brown was an unmitigated disaster, completely unable to make a decision until Mandelson effectively took over. May was similar. An effective leader has to be able to lead and persuade. Neither of those two could. I agree about Churchill, his second administration in the 1950s was embarrassing. Its why I rank Thatcher ahead of him although she went on too long as well.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,100

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    Will be trying out the pheromone lure for Emperor Moths today - conditions look perfect. Will let you know how I get on. Pictures of these magnificent critters (hopefully) if successful.
    Saw several butterflies on my walk yesterday. First I've seen this year.
    I saw a couple in the garden yesterday.

    Seems a bit early in the year to me. I guess the mini heatwave has triggered them?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 26,443
    Who would win in a fight between Brian Rose and Alex Arthur MBE (and who’ll receive the most votes in their respective contests)?

    https://twitter.com/brianrose4mayor/status/1376534618044702720?s=21
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Arguments about how to chop up England are micro level debates - we need strategic level planning first. What kind of UK is sustainable in the 21st Century? With Scotland, Norniron, Wales and now chunks of England increasingly restless, its obvious that we need to rethink the monolith that is this "united" kingdom.

    LibDem policy is federalism. A position I have believed in for decades. Devolve to the nations as much power as possible, leaving state-wide competence only in things like national defence and federal infrastructure.

    You solve the issue of "England will be too big and dominate the others" by devolving most powers away from the federal level. What England chooses to do with its own affairs won't affect the other nations that much if enough power is devolved to them.

    On topic, the Tories and especially Boris won't tackle these issues. He/they like the me me me approach where never mind debates about governance its all about me and mine. Does it matter that we can't realistically have a full service hospital in every town? No - we want it HERE and not THERE.

    That was quite the overnight discussion on the last thread.

    Any solution has to involve the creation of an English Parliament, and for the devolved Parliaments to be responsible for raising the majority of their own taxes, through borrowing if necessary, without reliance on a block grant from the U.K. government as they do now.

    The discussion then becomes what to do with the slimmed-down federal U.K. government, responsible for foreign policy, defence, federal law and the existing national debt? You’d want many fewer MPs, perhaps two from each county, and a very much reduced Lords.

    Maybe appointments to the Lords could be for a single 10 year term, and made by each of the First Ministers? You’d want them to replicate the existing setup with regard to keep the elected Parliament and executive honest while not being hyper-partisan, as they would be if elected directly.
    But what are you going to do about the English FM versus U.K. PM problem.

    We need a name for this.
    The England-as-Prussia conundrum.
    There isn’t a problem, as there’s little overlap in policy areas and each are accountable only to their own Parliaments. Sure, there will be times when they represent different parties, as happens already with different local jurisdictions.

    The division of powers does need to be formalised though, and in a clearer way than with the current devolved administrations.
    The problem is that a FM representing 90% of the U.K. will not “stay in their lane”.

    He or she will be structurally incentivised to undermine the U.K. PM and thereby the U.K. as a whole.
    The U.K. Parliament would remain sovereign, and the devolved administrations would derive their powers from it. Same as now, and the other way round to the USA.

    The English FM derives their power from, and is accountable to, only the English Parliament.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 3,008
    Sandpit said:

    F1: impressive snippet on Perez fixing his car:
    https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/1376629161981325312

    That was impressive, doubly so given that he is new to the car. One advantage of having an experienced driver, many would have parked it and got out - and not scored 10 points!

    I think it was Ant Davidson who said that learning a new car was like a pilot learning a new type of plane. They have hundreds of pages of manuals to be learned, and were expected to know the drills by heart for various contingencies and emergencies. Some teams make a replica steering wheel, which works with a real F1 ECU in a home-based simulator, so they can spend dozens of hours pressing all the buttons!
    I would be so so bad at that.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 6,681
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FWIW my top 3 would be
    Thatcher
    Churchill
    Attlee

    My bottom 3 would
    Eden
    May
    Brown.

    Cameron is our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. Brown saved the world after the global financial crisis. Churchill is there surely for his wartime administration and not his 1950s term. In taking us into Europe, perhaps Heath was more significant than most!

    But none of them showed Boris's casual disregard for truth, British institutions and democracy itself. Boris is sui generis.
    I seriously thought about doing a top 4 and putting Cameron on it but I thought what's the point in being so needlessly provocative.
    Brown was an unmitigated disaster, completely unable to make a decision until Mandelson effectively took over. May was similar. An effective leader has to be able to lead and persuade. Neither of those two could. I agree about Churchill, his second administration in the 1950s was embarrassing. Its why I rank Thatcher ahead of him although she went on too long as well.
    May and Brown might indeed figure highly on the question of temperamental unsuitability for the premiership but in terms of achievement, what good and harm they did, Cameron really was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North, even if he was charming and could speak without notes.

    Mrs Thatcher might, I suspect, be downgraded if Scotland does become independent as many will trace the breakup of the United Kingdom back to her using Scotland as a testbed for the poll tax and for treating North Sea oil as a magic money tree. If Scotland remains, these matter less.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 10,375
    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 161
    Andy_JS said:

    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/

    It's all a bit Bonfire of the Vanities. Safe to attack 'perpetuators', with no one willing to back them up for transgressions that are orders of magnitude lower than in other areas with more 'complicated' issues.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 161

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Arguments about how to chop up England are micro level debates - we need strategic level planning first. What kind of UK is sustainable in the 21st Century? With Scotland, Norniron, Wales and now chunks of England increasingly restless, its obvious that we need to rethink the monolith that is this "united" kingdom.

    LibDem policy is federalism. A position I have believed in for decades. Devolve to the nations as much power as possible, leaving state-wide competence only in things like national defence and federal infrastructure.

    You solve the issue of "England will be too big and dominate the others" by devolving most powers away from the federal level. What England chooses to do with its own affairs won't affect the other nations that much if enough power is devolved to them.

    On topic, the Tories and especially Boris won't tackle these issues. He/they like the me me me approach where never mind debates about governance its all about me and mine. Does it matter that we can't realistically have a full service hospital in every town? No - we want it HERE and not THERE.

    That was quite the overnight discussion on the last thread.

    Any solution has to involve the creation of an English Parliament, and for the devolved Parliaments to be responsible for raising the majority of their own taxes, through borrowing if necessary, without reliance on a block grant from the U.K. government as they do now.

    The discussion then becomes what to do with the slimmed-down federal U.K. government, responsible for foreign policy, defence, federal law and the existing national debt? You’d want many fewer MPs, perhaps two from each county, and a very much reduced Lords.

    Maybe appointments to the Lords could be for a single 10 year term, and made by each of the First Ministers? You’d want them to replicate the existing setup with regard to keep the elected Parliament and executive honest while not being hyper-partisan, as they would be if elected directly.
    But what are you going to do about the English FM versus U.K. PM problem.

    We need a name for this.
    The England-as-Prussia conundrum.
    There isn’t a problem, as there’s little overlap in policy areas and each are accountable only to their own Parliaments. Sure, there will be times when they represent different parties, as happens already with different local jurisdictions.

    The division of powers does need to be formalised though, and in a clearer way than with the current devolved administrations.
    The problem is that a FM representing 90% of the U.K. will not “stay in their lane”.

    He or she will be structurally incentivised to undermine the U.K. PM and thereby the U.K. as a whole.
    Trust me, having experienced two tier local government, there is very little "stay in your lane" and an awful lot of stuff that each blames the other for because neither has a specific responsibility for it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    kjh said:

    Sandpit said:

    F1: impressive snippet on Perez fixing his car:
    https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/1376629161981325312

    That was impressive, doubly so given that he is new to the car. One advantage of having an experienced driver, many would have parked it and got out - and not scored 10 points!

    I think it was Ant Davidson who said that learning a new car was like a pilot learning a new type of plane. They have hundreds of pages of manuals to be learned, and were expected to know the drills by heart for various contingencies and emergencies. Some teams make a replica steering wheel, which works with a real F1 ECU in a home-based simulator, so they can spend dozens of hours pressing all the buttons!
    I would be so so bad at that.
    Neville Shute describes, in Slide Rule, a test pilot he employed, who was the reverse of the caricature of test pilot most people know. A quiet family man, who spent hours sitting in the aircraft on the ground, trying the controls and memorising them.

    On the first flight, on take off, there was a problem with the engine. The pilot in question saved the plane by doing all the right things in an impossibly short period of time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,962
    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Arguments about how to chop up England are micro level debates - we need strategic level planning first. What kind of UK is sustainable in the 21st Century? With Scotland, Norniron, Wales and now chunks of England increasingly restless, its obvious that we need to rethink the monolith that is this "united" kingdom.

    LibDem policy is federalism. A position I have believed in for decades. Devolve to the nations as much power as possible, leaving state-wide competence only in things like national defence and federal infrastructure.

    You solve the issue of "England will be too big and dominate the others" by devolving most powers away from the federal level. What England chooses to do with its own affairs won't affect the other nations that much if enough power is devolved to them.

    On topic, the Tories and especially Boris won't tackle these issues. He/they like the me me me approach where never mind debates about governance its all about me and mine. Does it matter that we can't realistically have a full service hospital in every town? No - we want it HERE and not THERE.

    That was quite the overnight discussion on the last thread.

    Any solution has to involve the creation of an English Parliament, and for the devolved Parliaments to be responsible for raising the majority of their own taxes, through borrowing if necessary, without reliance on a block grant from the U.K. government as they do now.

    The discussion then becomes what to do with the slimmed-down federal U.K. government, responsible for foreign policy, defence, federal law, Treasury, and national debt? You’d want many fewer MPs, perhaps two from each county, and a very much reduced Lords.

    Maybe appointments to the Lords could be for a single 10 year term, and made by each of the First Ministers? You’d want them to replicate the existing setup with regard to keep the elected Parliament and executive honest while not being hyper-partisan, as they would be if elected directly.
    A weakness of the discussion was that it focused on symmetrical solutions, so you either have devolution to the regions of England which doesn't work for Scotland or Wales by creating a false equivalence, or you have devolution to the whole of England, which is unbalanced and risks duplication and conflict between England and UK decision-making.

    A more workable approach is likely to be an asymmetrical one with Scotland made autonomous in a similar fashion to Alto Adige (Sudtirol) in Italy. Thus you'd have English regions (and English parliament makes no sense as an addition to the UK one) with devolved powers plus Scotland (and possibly Wales) as autonomous regions with additional powers and only the loosest oversight from UK parliament for defence and the like.

    The problem now, of course, is Scotland's wish to draw closer to the EU, which makes all of these options unacceptable, at least in the medium term. But then the Tories were warned that their obsession with Brexit might risk the union, and overwhelmingly said they were willing to take that risk.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/

    It's all a bit Bonfire of the Vanities. Safe to attack 'perpetuators', with no one willing to back them up for transgressions that are orders of magnitude lower than in other areas with more 'complicated' issues.
    In totally unrelated news:

    “It’s too soon to say what exactly the long-term impact of the current debate is going to have, but it’s likely to contribute to the huge changes in young male sexuality that have been happening for over a decade - without most people paying them much attention.

    The primary change, at its most basic level, is that young men seem to be having much less sex than at any point in recent history. The statistics are actually quite shocking when you start to think about what they mean for an entire generation.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/todays-boys-young-men-arent-obsessed-sex-terrified/
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 6,681
    Brexit and British expats in the EU. There seems to be some noise about this on social media. So far as I can make out, Spain is expelling 500 with perhaps thousands more to come. This is either their own fault or ours, or plain EU vindictiveness, depending who you believe.
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 188
    All leaders will make both good and bad decisions.Their reputation largely rests on the luck of whether they are seen as getting the big decisions right or wrong.If someone gets a big decision wrong then it does not matter how many small decisions they get right i.e Chamberlain,Eden, Blair and Cameron.And if someone gets a big decision right then it is overlooked how many poor small decisions they made i.e Churchill.
    One has to add communication skills to the mix.What made Brown and May such terrible PM's was their inability to answer questions.Instead one got endlessly repeated irritating cliches.One could argue that Brown got his big decision right (dealing with the financial crisis) but his reputation is poor .The same might have happened to May even if she had got Brexit done.Voters deserve a certain bar of transparency from their leaders.Brown and May were both too risk averse to be clear and open
    A great thing about Mrs Thatcher was that she did answer tough questions and explained clearly her reasoning behind unpopular policies.Another factor in a leader is how good or not their Cabinet team is. Reading history the war generation Cabinets were generally strong but the baby boomer cabinets have been very hit and miss.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 6,681
    OT lots of advertising for volunteers and postal votes coming from Brian Rose, the unlikely candidate for Mayor of London. Cynics might point to both these as address-farming but it must be costing a few quid.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,301
    I used to think Theresa May was the worst Prime Minister of my lifetime. On reflection, it's clearly David Cameron. No PM has inflicted more long-term damage on the UK more casually. May was desperately poor, but she was dealing with Cameron's mess. Johnson is busily causing more harm, of course, but he is part of the Cameron legacy, too.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 389

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    O/t again, but maybe inspired by today's news and recollections how many males here can recall occasions from their schooldays where they did things which might be considered, in a different time, as 'abuse'?

    Bullying was rife in my school in the 60's
    As it was in mine, a highly self-regarding predominantly middle class Hampshire grammar school.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,754
    Andy_JS said:

    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/

    I read the reports on everyonesinvited, and I don't think a lot has changed from when I was a teenager. Perhaps it should have, but it hasn't. There has always been a percentage of predatory male youth who won't take no for an answer, though perhaps deception has always been more common than force.

    Some of the stories are horrible, and I am not sure how it can be tackled other than by changing the culture, and it seems reasonable to describe that as a "rape culture".
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600

    OT lots of advertising for volunteers and postal votes coming from Brian Rose, the unlikely candidate for Mayor of London. Cynics might point to both these as address-farming but it must be costing a few quid.

    What do we know about this guy, is he a wealthy businessman?

    His supporters were certainly enthusiastic in backing him on Betfair earlier in the campaign, and now he’s spending money on advertising. The deposit is £10k for the election, which he’s found from somewhere too.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 161
    edited March 30

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    O/t again, but maybe inspired by today's news and recollections how many males here can recall occasions from their schooldays where they did things which might be considered, in a different time, as 'abuse'?

    Bullying was rife in my school in the 60's
    As it was in mine, a highly self-regarding predominantly middle class Hampshire grammar school.
    As a boy in late 80s , i was regularly assaulted by older kids. Behaviour if committed by an adult would have ended up in jail not only now, but at the time. Totally dismissed by the teachers.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,957
    What about putting these in rank order? And does our modern history syllabus enable Year 11s etc to know enough of these to do so? It isn't easy to comprehend who we are and how we got here without them.

    Peel
    Grey
    Russell
    Melbourne
    Disraeli
    Gladstone
    Palmerston
    Asquith
    Lloyd George
    Salisbury
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/

    It's all a bit Bonfire of the Vanities. Safe to attack 'perpetuators', with no one willing to back them up for transgressions that are orders of magnitude lower than in other areas with more 'complicated' issues.
    If my recollection is any guide...... and at my age recollection of 60+ years ago is likely to be better than for that 60+ days ago ....... the comment on the article that girls were quite capable of 'dressing provocatively' and, come to that, leading the lads on, was quite right.
    And yes I know that doing so isn't an invitation to abuse, but it can be very, very close to it.
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,607

    Brexit and British expats in the EU. There seems to be some noise about this on social media. So far as I can make out, Spain is expelling 500 with perhaps thousands more to come. This is either their own fault or ours, or plain EU vindictiveness, depending who you believe.

    It is people who have failed to regularise their status both on the previous and post Brexit rules. The best interpretation would be that they are idiots since Spain both was and is very accommodating to British immigrants.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,058
    felix said:

    Brexit and British expats in the EU. There seems to be some noise about this on social media. So far as I can make out, Spain is expelling 500 with perhaps thousands more to come. This is either their own fault or ours, or plain EU vindictiveness, depending who you believe.

    It is people who have failed to regularise their status both on the previous and post Brexit rules. The best interpretation would be that they are idiots since Spain both was and is very accommodating to British immigrants.
    My ex Neighbour moved to Spain last year with absolutely no problems.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600

    kjh said:

    Sandpit said:

    F1: impressive snippet on Perez fixing his car:
    https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/1376629161981325312

    That was impressive, doubly so given that he is new to the car. One advantage of having an experienced driver, many would have parked it and got out - and not scored 10 points!

    I think it was Ant Davidson who said that learning a new car was like a pilot learning a new type of plane. They have hundreds of pages of manuals to be learned, and were expected to know the drills by heart for various contingencies and emergencies. Some teams make a replica steering wheel, which works with a real F1 ECU in a home-based simulator, so they can spend dozens of hours pressing all the buttons!
    I would be so so bad at that.
    Neville Shute describes, in Slide Rule, a test pilot he employed, who was the reverse of the caricature of test pilot most people know. A quiet family man, who spent hours sitting in the aircraft on the ground, trying the controls and memorising them.

    On the first flight, on take off, there was a problem with the engine. The pilot in question saved the plane by doing all the right things in an impossibly short period of time.
    People have the impression of a test pilot as being a gung-ho Top Gun type, but that’s not what they’re like at all.

    Anyone put in charge of a prototype anything, which can kill themselves and others if it goes wrong, are usually the calm and methodical types, with an academic interest in the machine they’re operating.
  • eekeek Posts: 11,738

    Brexit and British expats in the EU. There seems to be some noise about this on social media. So far as I can make out, Spain is expelling 500 with perhaps thousands more to come. This is either their own fault or ours, or plain EU vindictiveness, depending who you believe.

    I would argue that it's their own fault as in all the cases I've seen the issue seems to be not sorting out residency in Spain as they didn't see the need for it.

    There does seem to also be a few cases where checks have resulted in the country deciding that they don't want that person staying there but I've not seen anything that makes the extraordinary.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966
    felix said:

    Brexit and British expats in the EU. There seems to be some noise about this on social media. So far as I can make out, Spain is expelling 500 with perhaps thousands more to come. This is either their own fault or ours, or plain EU vindictiveness, depending who you believe.

    It is people who have failed to regularise their status both on the previous and post Brexit rules. The best interpretation would be that they are idiots since Spain both was and is very accommodating to British immigrants.
    Mixed up with questions about did the vote in the Referendum and if so which way. Depending on who is publishing the story.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 9,508
    A word in support of David Cameron. Yes he was a posh oik who acted in a cavalier fashion. At least he was competent. Shagger is the same inbreed of posh oik acting in a cavalier fashion, but is incompetent.

    As for Gordon Brown, he absolutely was a poor leader. What he got right was the management of the global financial crash. When put on the spot the decisions made - refusing to sanction the takeover of Lehman by Barclays, bailing out RBS that October day in 2008, the need for immediate stimulus investments to keep cash flowing - were all critical for the future of the UK.

    Ask any of the world leaders of the time about him, and they sing his praises. Yet in the UK he is hated because the Tory lie that he bankrupted the country stuck (helped by that cretin Byrne with his comedy note). Brown was useless at everything else, but in that time of crisis he was peerless.
  • eekeek Posts: 11,738

    I used to think Theresa May was the worst Prime Minister of my lifetime. On reflection, it's clearly David Cameron. No PM has inflicted more long-term damage on the UK more casually. May was desperately poor, but she was dealing with Cameron's mess. Johnson is busily causing more harm, of course, but he is part of the Cameron legacy, too.

    Johnson is, as I've pointed out before, a very lucky general. The EU screw up of the vaccination program which will probably result in the EU being locked down throughout the summer will help his legacy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288



    I saw a couple in the garden yesterday.

    Seems a bit early in the year to me. I guess the mini heatwave has triggered them?

    The first double entendre of spring. :smile:
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,712
    MattW said:

    Feeling rather embarrassed for Kieran.

    Who?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,317
    Mr. eek, as an aside, both Richard the Lionheart and Alexander the Great were lucky generals.

    But the moment their luck deserted them, they pretty much died instantly.

    Caesar was somewhat similar.

    Unlucky Hannibal actually lived for decades after the Second Punic War.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 161
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/

    I read the reports on everyonesinvited, and I don't think a lot has changed from when I was a teenager. Perhaps it should have, but it hasn't. There has always been a percentage of predatory male youth who won't take no for an answer, though perhaps deception has always been more common than force.

    Some of the stories are horrible, and I am not sure how it can be tackled other than by changing the culture, and it seems reasonable to describe that as a "rape culture".
    Nonsense. It implies that rape is acceptable. It isnt acceptable whatsoever. Another culture war brought in from american campuses with moral panics.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,914
    Surprised May and Cameron did so well.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288
    Andy_JS said:

    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/

    The author appear to be expressing the same certainty without evidence that she complains of.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,058

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    O/t again, but maybe inspired by today's news and recollections how many males here can recall occasions from their schooldays where they did things which might be considered, in a different time, as 'abuse'?

    Bullying was rife in my school in the 60's
    As it was in mine, a highly self-regarding predominantly middle class Hampshire grammar school.
    And in my London grammar in the 70's.

    2 of my sons suffered some pretty bad bullying at times

    On the positive side, youngest has Aspergers and he never really suffered at school from bullying from the other children.

    Is it possible kids are more accepting of differences these days or perhaps he was just lucky.

    His treatment by the teaching establishment on the other hand ......
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 6,681
    Metatron said:

    All leaders will make both good and bad decisions.Their reputation largely rests on the luck of whether they are seen as getting the big decisions right or wrong.If someone gets a big decision wrong then it does not matter how many small decisions they get right i.e Chamberlain,Eden, Blair and Cameron.And if someone gets a big decision right then it is overlooked how many poor small decisions they made i.e Churchill.
    One has to add communication skills to the mix.What made Brown and May such terrible PM's was their inability to answer questions.Instead one got endlessly repeated irritating cliches.One could argue that Brown got his big decision right (dealing with the financial crisis) but his reputation is poor .The same might have happened to May even if she had got Brexit done.Voters deserve a certain bar of transparency from their leaders.Brown and May were both too risk averse to be clear and open
    A great thing about Mrs Thatcher was that she did answer tough questions and explained clearly her reasoning behind unpopular policies.Another factor in a leader is how good or not their Cabinet team is. Reading history the war generation Cabinets were generally strong but the baby boomer cabinets have been very hit and miss.

    If we accept your analysis of Brown and May as being poor for not answering questions clearly, then perhaps this was not just risk aversion but because they placed a high value on truth. Coincidentally or not, both were sons or daughters of the manse, and Mrs Thatcher was as good as. Boris would simply and casually lie.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,776
    felix said:

    Brexit and British expats in the EU. There seems to be some noise about this on social media. So far as I can make out, Spain is expelling 500 with perhaps thousands more to come. This is either their own fault or ours, or plain EU vindictiveness, depending who you believe.

    It is people who have failed to regularise their status both on the previous and post Brexit rules. The best interpretation would be that they are idiots since Spain both was and is very accommodating to British immigrants.
    Amongst their number will be a few crims who didn't want anyone to know where they were....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600
    edited March 30

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/

    I read the reports on everyonesinvited, and I don't think a lot has changed from when I was a teenager. Perhaps it should have, but it hasn't. There has always been a percentage of predatory male youth who won't take no for an answer, though perhaps deception has always been more common than force.

    Some of the stories are horrible, and I am not sure how it can be tackled other than by changing the culture, and it seems reasonable to describe that as a "rape culture".
    Nonsense. It implies that rape is acceptable. It isnt acceptable whatsoever. Another culture war brought in from american campuses with moral panics.
    I seem to recall a shocking statistic from the US last year, that in a very high proportion of reported campus rapes in the US, the accused is an ‘athlete’ - and that a huge part of the problem is the way college sport is organised in the US, such that the university authorities are unwilling to do anything about it.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 161
    OT we were always very lukewarm on the whole concept of a european arrest warrant but eventually fell in line. I was very sceptical of the concept of been deported to another nation for something that wasnt a crime in this one. But i do remember speaking to a DCI involved with interpol, he said it had its problems (like some countries entering every single crime onto their international database as a matter of routine) but it was useful at picking people up coming into the country (though they hardly ever did).

    It seems now that with its expiration and failure to put anything in its place we wont be getting criminals extradited.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14491625/brexit-european-countries-extradition-criminals-uk/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,317
    Mr. Floater, I remember reading somewhere that the tradition of British eccentricity had the slightly odd side-effect of making us the most tolerant country in the world for those on the autistic spectrum.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600

    felix said:

    Brexit and British expats in the EU. There seems to be some noise about this on social media. So far as I can make out, Spain is expelling 500 with perhaps thousands more to come. This is either their own fault or ours, or plain EU vindictiveness, depending who you believe.

    It is people who have failed to regularise their status both on the previous and post Brexit rules. The best interpretation would be that they are idiots since Spain both was and is very accommodating to British immigrants.
    Amongst their number will be a few crims who didn't want anyone to know where they were....
    I did wonder how many are wanted in the UK, or who have acquired criminal records in Spain and were denied residency?
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 161
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/

    I read the reports on everyonesinvited, and I don't think a lot has changed from when I was a teenager. Perhaps it should have, but it hasn't. There has always been a percentage of predatory male youth who won't take no for an answer, though perhaps deception has always been more common than force.

    Some of the stories are horrible, and I am not sure how it can be tackled other than by changing the culture, and it seems reasonable to describe that as a "rape culture".
    Nonsense. It implies that rape is acceptable. It isnt acceptable whatsoever. Another culture war brought in from american campuses with moral panics.
    I seem to recall a shocking statistic from the US last year, that in a massive proportion of rapes on US campuses, the accused is an ‘athlete’ - and that a huge part of the problem is the way college sport is organised in the US, such that the university authorities are unwilling to do anything about the problem.
    'athlete' might be a euphemism, but athletes are treated like gods. But even when i was on an american campus decades ago such a thing was not in any way acceptable.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 161
    eek said:

    I used to think Theresa May was the worst Prime Minister of my lifetime. On reflection, it's clearly David Cameron. No PM has inflicted more long-term damage on the UK more casually. May was desperately poor, but she was dealing with Cameron's mess. Johnson is busily causing more harm, of course, but he is part of the Cameron legacy, too.

    Johnson is, as I've pointed out before, a very lucky general. The EU screw up of the vaccination program which will probably result in the EU being locked down throughout the summer will help his legacy.
    Give me lucky generals !
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,776

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    Will be trying out the pheromone lure for Emperor Moths today - conditions look perfect. Will let you know how I get on. Pictures of these magnificent critters (hopefully) if successful.
    Saw several butterflies on my walk yesterday. First I've seen this year.
    I saw a couple in the garden yesterday.

    Seems a bit early in the year to me. I guess the mini heatwave has triggered them?
    I saw butterflies in January. Nice day, they will be opportunistic and see if there is any nectar to top up reserves. But by March, you'd expect to see a few Red Admiral, Peacock, Small Tortoiseshell and especially Brimstone, which are about the first on the wing. (A few days ago I saw a Small White, which admittedly as VERY early.)

    21 species of moth out and about last night.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,600

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/

    I read the reports on everyonesinvited, and I don't think a lot has changed from when I was a teenager. Perhaps it should have, but it hasn't. There has always been a percentage of predatory male youth who won't take no for an answer, though perhaps deception has always been more common than force.

    Some of the stories are horrible, and I am not sure how it can be tackled other than by changing the culture, and it seems reasonable to describe that as a "rape culture".
    Nonsense. It implies that rape is acceptable. It isnt acceptable whatsoever. Another culture war brought in from american campuses with moral panics.
    I seem to recall a shocking statistic from the US last year, that in a massive proportion of rapes on US campuses, the accused is an ‘athlete’ - and that a huge part of the problem is the way college sport is organised in the US, such that the university authorities are unwilling to do anything about the problem.
    'athlete' might be a euphemism, but athletes are treated like gods. But even when i was on an american campus decades ago such a thing was not in any way acceptable.
    https://theconversation.com/rape-on-campus-athletes-status-and-the-sexual-assault-crisis-72255
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288
    Good BBC article on (Frenchman) Pascal Soriot and AstraZeneca:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56570364

    This is a particular gem:
    ...Oxford University's Sir John Bell said Mr Soriot was mystified by the French approach: "He's found dealing with the French one of the most difficult things he's had to do, because they have been so completely irrational."...

    Note also that Pfizer unsuccessfully bid to take over the company a few years back.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 673
    Floater said:

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    O/t again, but maybe inspired by today's news and recollections how many males here can recall occasions from their schooldays where they did things which might be considered, in a different time, as 'abuse'?

    Bullying was rife in my school in the 60's
    As it was in mine, a highly self-regarding predominantly middle class Hampshire grammar school.
    And in my London grammar in the 70's.

    2 of my sons suffered some pretty bad bullying at times

    On the positive side, youngest has Aspergers and he never really suffered at school from bullying from the other children.

    Is it possible kids are more accepting of differences these days or perhaps he was just lucky.

    His treatment by the teaching establishment on the other hand ......
    In my Staffordshire Grammar school of the 70s (all boys), bullying was rife as well. I don't remember any sexual assault, though I do remember the homophobic attitude which permeated the games sessions. I don't remember any aggression or homophobic attitudes from the teachers mind. In fact the older you got the more working the attitudes and relationships became.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288

    Floater said:

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    O/t again, but maybe inspired by today's news and recollections how many males here can recall occasions from their schooldays where they did things which might be considered, in a different time, as 'abuse'?

    Bullying was rife in my school in the 60's
    As it was in mine, a highly self-regarding predominantly middle class Hampshire grammar school.
    And in my London grammar in the 70's.

    2 of my sons suffered some pretty bad bullying at times

    On the positive side, youngest has Aspergers and he never really suffered at school from bullying from the other children.

    Is it possible kids are more accepting of differences these days or perhaps he was just lucky.

    His treatment by the teaching establishment on the other hand ......
    In my Staffordshire Grammar school of the 70s (all boys), bullying was rife as well. I don't remember any sexual assault, though I do remember the homophobic attitude which permeated the games sessions. I don't remember any aggression or homophobic attitudes from the teachers mind. In fact the older you got the more working the attitudes and relationships became.
    In the mid 80s, several years after I left my school, three former teachers were convicted of sexual abuse and imprisoned - after having been quietly asked to leave the school and going on to commit further abuse at the next one.

    The argument that it's OK because it's no different than it was in my day cuts no ice with me.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,469
    edited March 30

    Floater said:

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    O/t again, but maybe inspired by today's news and recollections how many males here can recall occasions from their schooldays where they did things which might be considered, in a different time, as 'abuse'?

    Bullying was rife in my school in the 60's
    As it was in mine, a highly self-regarding predominantly middle class Hampshire grammar school.
    And in my London grammar in the 70's.

    2 of my sons suffered some pretty bad bullying at times

    On the positive side, youngest has Aspergers and he never really suffered at school from bullying from the other children.

    Is it possible kids are more accepting of differences these days or perhaps he was just lucky.

    His treatment by the teaching establishment on the other hand ......
    In my Staffordshire Grammar school of the 70s (all boys), bullying was rife as well. I don't remember any sexual assault, though I do remember the homophobic attitude which permeated the games sessions. I don't remember any aggression or homophobic attitudes from the teachers mind. In fact the older you got the more working the attitudes and relationships became.
    I was at a bog standard comprehensive in the 70s and early 80s and again bullying - or in my case being bullied - was just a normal part of life. But only from the children, not the teachers. My son is at the local Grammar and does not appear to have the same issues I had in terms of being bullied. Indeed I have nothing but praise for the pastoral care the school delivers, particularly with regard to mental health issues.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 1,319
    Good on Lenny Henry trying to boost vaccine rates. In terms of the flashy celeb stuff, a good strategy would be to try and get footballers like Barnes, Drogba, Mo Salah, Auba, etc.,, and artists like Stormzy on board. If you want the reluctant 55 year old to be vaccinated, you get their kids to be the salesperson.

    The hard grind of course is going mosque to mosque and church to church. Is this being done yet or are they just moving down the list and using whatever doses they have on whoever wants them?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 389

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joanna Williams

    There is no ‘rape culture’ in schools
    Education’s ‘#MeToo moment’ is not a scandal – it’s a moral panic over teenage sex."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/29/there-is-no-rape-culture-in-schools/

    It's all a bit Bonfire of the Vanities. Safe to attack 'perpetuators', with no one willing to back them up for transgressions that are orders of magnitude lower than in other areas with more 'complicated' issues.
    If my recollection is any guide...... and at my age recollection of 60+ years ago is likely to be better than for that 60+ days ago ....... the comment on the article that girls were quite capable of 'dressing provocatively' and, come to that, leading the lads on, was quite right.
    And yes I know that doing so isn't an invitation to abuse, but it can be very, very close to it.
    I remember the Senior Mistress used to stalk the corridors with a ruler to measure how far in excess of the statutory 2” above the knee that the hem of girls’ skirts reached. She needed a 12” ruler.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,712
    Nigelb said:

    Floater said:

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    O/t again, but maybe inspired by today's news and recollections how many males here can recall occasions from their schooldays where they did things which might be considered, in a different time, as 'abuse'?

    Bullying was rife in my school in the 60's
    As it was in mine, a highly self-regarding predominantly middle class Hampshire grammar school.
    And in my London grammar in the 70's.

    2 of my sons suffered some pretty bad bullying at times

    On the positive side, youngest has Aspergers and he never really suffered at school from bullying from the other children.

    Is it possible kids are more accepting of differences these days or perhaps he was just lucky.

    His treatment by the teaching establishment on the other hand ......
    In my Staffordshire Grammar school of the 70s (all boys), bullying was rife as well. I don't remember any sexual assault, though I do remember the homophobic attitude which permeated the games sessions. I don't remember any aggression or homophobic attitudes from the teachers mind. In fact the older you got the more working the attitudes and relationships became.
    In the mid 80s, several years after I left my school, three former teachers were convicted of sexual abuse and imprisoned - after having been quietly asked to leave the school and going on to commit further abuse at the next one.

    The argument that it's OK because it's no different than it was in my day cuts no ice with me.
    Quite - we should be aiming for a better world all the time, even if we fall short.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 673
    Nigelb said:

    Floater said:

    Good morning everybody. Another sunny day in prospect.

    O/t again, but maybe inspired by today's news and recollections how many males here can recall occasions from their schooldays where they did things which might be considered, in a different time, as 'abuse'?

    Bullying was rife in my school in the 60's
    As it was in mine, a highly self-regarding predominantly middle class Hampshire grammar school.
    And in my London grammar in the 70's.

    2 of my sons suffered some pretty bad bullying at times

    On the positive side, youngest has Aspergers and he never really suffered at school from bullying from the other children.

    Is it possible kids are more accepting of differences these days or perhaps he was just lucky.

    His treatment by the teaching establishment on the other hand ......
    In my Staffordshire Grammar school of the 70s (all boys), bullying was rife as well. I don't remember any sexual assault, though I do remember the homophobic attitude which permeated the games sessions. I don't remember any aggression or homophobic attitudes from the teachers mind. In fact the older you got the more working the attitudes and relationships became.
    In the mid 80s, several years after I left my school, three former teachers were convicted of sexual abuse and imprisoned - after having been quietly asked to leave the school and going on to commit further abuse at the next one.

    The argument that it's OK because it's no different than it was in my day cuts no ice with me.
    I totally agree with that. As I said, I don't remember any incidents or even gossip about any teachers, as surely there would be if things had happened.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 65,173

    Who would win in a fight between Brian Rose and Alex Arthur MBE (and who’ll receive the most votes in their respective contests)?

    https://twitter.com/brianrose4mayor/status/1376534618044702720?s=21

    Sports day for politicians

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1376645320998854658
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