Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Priti Patel may just have changed the Tory leadership rules and this has major betting implications

1356

Comments

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    There should be an additional top-up to FPTP based on how many total votes were cast across the entire election. Then in a safe seat, voting for a party that's got no chance of winning in FPTP is still somewhat relevant on the top-up system.

    A certain number of additional MP's would then be determined in the proportion upon which the parties were voted for on a national basis.

    I guess similar to the Holyrood list vote but (a) not split into regions, (b) not voted for separately and (c) not gerrymandered to unproportionally over-represent the parties who got relatively few votes.

    That would stop e.g. the hypothetical instance of a party losing every single constituency by one vote and getting no representation at all - nationally they would have piled up a significant fraction of the total vote and should get some representation for that.

    It would also go some way to making elections too determined by geography alone.

    Would need to work out exactly what the split between FPTP and additional top up MPs would need to be to be reasonable and fair.

    That is my Sunday morning not-really-thought-about-it-its-probably-stupid idea. It's probably already a system that has a name.

    It was pretty much what Blair's Jenkins Commission recommended, which Labour had committed to implement, until it reneged in its promise, which taking the long view was as big a mistake by Labour as were some of the LibDems' decisions in coalition.

    In an alternative universe somewhere, Jenkins was implemented, and we never had to endure the false Tory majorities that led to Brexit, and the rest is alternative history...
    But Brexit was backed by 52%...

    This is my problem. Some people want a voting system because they think it will produce outcomes that they support.
    Quite - like the idiot Roger who thinks PR will prevent Tory governments. All over the world different electoral systems produce a mix of left and right wing governments as would happen here if we changed the system. Many who now try different voting options under FPTP would vote differently under PR - and the result would probably be the same - a left leaning electorate would produce a left-leaning government and vice versa. People currently assume that all of the current non-Tory votes would be exactly the same under PR. I believe they'd be disappointed. A PR system would simply enhance the message for Conservatives and centrists to avoid risking preferences for SNP or LD and risk letting Labour in. In other words voter behaviour adapts to the electoral system.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397
    MattW said:

    Interesting thread. German Greens policy for a Federal Europe.

    Good to see some debate. I wonder if this is new?

    https://twitter.com/APHClarkson/status/1372971407664103425

    Surely this is just the obvious end result now the only awkward squad member with any say (i.e. the UK) has left the EU
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    MattW said:

    Interesting thread. German Greens policy for a Federal Europe.

    Good to see some debate. I wonder if this is new?

    https://twitter.com/APHClarkson/status/1372971407664103425

    That's the UK never going back then if that happens.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    Plenty of Reductio Ad Hitlerum on the twitter thread about today's Daily Star:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew4NF4WXEAYia6x?format=jpg&name=900x900

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley:

    My conversations with people inside government suggest that many ministers appreciate that [vaccination] gloating is unedifying and self-defeating. At the same time, a Brexiter cabinet finds it hard to resist the temptation to exploit the EU’s distress for partisan advantage. The NHS-delivered distribution of the vaccine is the only aspect of the handling of the crisis in which this government can claim to have a record that is impressive. Brexiters want to claim that success, however bogusly, as a justification for their experiment. There are also Tories who believe that a steady drumbeat of cross-Channel conflict serves their electoral interests by keeping the Brexit vote aroused and distracted from the punishing damage the rupture is inflicting on the economy.

    A government with an enlightened perspective on the long-term interests of Britain would see value in offering expressions of sympathy and gestures of solidarity with the EU at its time of severe trial. That could generate a lot of goodwill among European voters and leaders. It might be the more effective in winning friends for Britain for being so unexpected from a Brexiter government. Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, instead prefers to play tit for tat.

    There is a problem with this attempt by ministers to seize the title deeds to the moral high ground. Their behaviour has robbed them of any claims on it. No one is worse qualified to lecture others about contract-breaking than a member of Mr Johnson’s government.

    The chances of avoiding a mutually destructive struggle with the EU over vaccine supplies would be much better had Britain a prime minister who was regarded as a trustworthy international partner by his peer group. An escalation into a full-blown “vaccine war” between Britain and the EU would be a disaster for both on many levels.

    Vaccine nationalism is already a dimension of this crisis. It would set a terrible example to the world if countries that advertise themselves as mature, sophisticated and internationalist democracies were to unleash a vaccine war in Europe. Britain and her near neighbours are going to have to live and work with each other long after Covid-19 has become history. The UK’s security and prosperity still depend in great part on what happens within the EU. It cannot be in the EU’s interests to have permanently toxified relations with such a substantial country on its border. A vaccine war would be a conflict without a winner, only many losers.

    The government has done nothing of the sort. This is an exercise of trying to justify the idiotic position of the EU and falsely accusing the UK government of vaccine nationalism.

    Rawnsley has started with his conclusion of "must be the fault of brexit supporters" and then fit the narrative to it and made up "evidence" based on his feelings about the subject to get there. It's a load of old rubbish dressed up as insight.
    In this instance, it's the EU who are behaving like the jilted ex.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397
    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    There should be an additional top-up to FPTP based on how many total votes were cast across the entire election. Then in a safe seat, voting for a party that's got no chance of winning in FPTP is still somewhat relevant on the top-up system.

    A certain number of additional MP's would then be determined in the proportion upon which the parties were voted for on a national basis.

    I guess similar to the Holyrood list vote but (a) not split into regions, (b) not voted for separately and (c) not gerrymandered to unproportionally over-represent the parties who got relatively few votes.

    That would stop e.g. the hypothetical instance of a party losing every single constituency by one vote and getting no representation at all - nationally they would have piled up a significant fraction of the total vote and should get some representation for that.

    It would also go some way to making elections too determined by geography alone.

    Would need to work out exactly what the split between FPTP and additional top up MPs would need to be to be reasonable and fair.

    That is my Sunday morning not-really-thought-about-it-its-probably-stupid idea. It's probably already a system that has a name.

    It was pretty much what Blair's Jenkins Commission recommended, which Labour had committed to implement, until it reneged in its promise, which taking the long view was as big a mistake by Labour as were some of the LibDems' decisions in coalition.

    In an alternative universe somewhere, Jenkins was implemented, and we never had to endure the false Tory majorities that led to Brexit, and the rest is alternative history...
    But Brexit was backed by 52%...

    This is my problem. Some people want a voting system because they think it will produce outcomes that they support.
    In any universe where Parliament wasn't elected by a FPTP system Cameron wouldn't have got an unexpected majority in 2015 which would have resulted in another coalition where the EU referendum would be quietly shelved.

    The irony is that given the mess the EU has made of vaccines (even the New York Times has an article on it today) leaving was probably for the best.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    edited March 2021
    FWIW I find French presidential system really interesting, in the way that it gives an initial open voice to minorities views, but then forces the choice. On the down side it has given a platform to Le Pen, but at the same time it has unlocked big party monopolies. It will be interesting so see what happens in the upcoming election.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376
    edited March 2021
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    IanB2 said:

    Most of those cheering FPTP as the creator of good and strong government, were enraged by Blair's third term "majority" on 36% of the vote.

    Nationally in the UK, FPTP is a system that avoids Italian style inertia. But which is worse, Italian style inertia, or 64% of the population without a voice in government?

    And it is remarkable how quickly Italy or Israel gets mentioned in such discussions, while the happy and stable Scandinavian democracies rarely get considered.

    Italian politics is unstable because of Italian history and, well, because they are Italian.
    As a proponent of proportional voting systems, I am happy to take the rough with the smooth. 2017 would have given Mrs May a massive pro-hard-Brexit mandate under a PR system, and yet under FPTP, no mandate for her Brexit means Brexit position. Not what I voted for, but it is what (I believe) a genuine 50% plus majority under PR voted for. Therefore fair, if nothing else.

    So what did that branch of the Conservative Party do, when under their preferred electoral system they could not get their way? They claimed a "zombie parliament".
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Shadow health secretary Jon Ashworth has said caution is needed for the pandemic response given the level of infections.

    He told Sophy Ridge on Sunday: “That will mean, I’m afraid, that governments will have to have the power to impose restrictions where necessary.”

    Ashworth said parts of the Coronavirus Act need to be “properly scrutinised” and he will press Health Secretary Matt Hancock to explain why they are needed, including on social care, but he acknowledged other parts are required.

    Asked if he will be voting in favour, Ashworth described it as “complex” before adding: “We broadly support it, it ought to be properly scrutinised.”


    Now, once the entire adult population has been vaccinated, we must ask why it is that the Government would still need "to have the power to impose restrictions where necessary." How could restrictions be regarded as necessary under such circumstances? What conceivable use would they be? Yes yes, I know, vaccine escaping variants and all that, but you could use that to justify precautionary measures against anything. Emergency powers in case of nuclear war or asteroid impact, anyone?

    The entire point of the vaccination programme is to throw the kinds of Draconian measures we have been forced to live with for the past year in the dustbin and to learn to live with the virus (and the fact that it will still kill a certain number of people,) not to cave in to what another poster has succinctly described as the "Zero Covid psychopaths."

    The Government seems to have taken this idea onboard, although given its established reputation for flip-flopping I can understand why the Covid Recovery Group are nervous. I think that the CRG are wrong to go too hard on ministers under the cover of "data, not dates" - the rationale behind the five-week gap between the unlocking steps has been clearly and satisfactorily explained, even if the baby steps are frustrating - but the extension of the Coronavirus Act all the way to October does not appear to be justified. As Mark Harper has rightly warned this morning, it gives the impression that the Government is keeping the full mechanisms of suppression in its back pocket, ready to bring them all back after the Summer holidays.

    If the Act is to be extended then why not, therefore, until just until the end of August? By that point, based on the Government's timetable, every adult should've been offered at least one dose of the vaccine and had enough time for it to take effect, and we can be reasonably confident that all the clinically vulnerable, health and care workers and everyone over about the age of 40 will have had both shots. If some very limited measures (like masks on public transport, as distinct from locking us all up again for another six months) are needed as the threat of Covid+Flu looms next Winter, then surely these could be introduced through fresh specific legislation, or imposed using the public health laws that existed prior to the pandemic?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    This "UK census" doesn't include Scotland as a part of the SNP differentiation policy (see Covid et al). I think we are doing our census next year. My wild guess is that Scotland may just be a bit more Christian than the rest of the UK (fewer immigrants from non Christian countries, quite a lot (proportionally) from Catholic ones, the wee Free nutters, etc) so that might just tip the balance.
    I would actually have expected it to be less Christian overall, albeit probably also less Muslim and Jewish, but I could easily be wrong.

    There are of course pockets of very strict Christian observance in Scotland in a way there no longer is in England or Wales, but they are very small.
    Catholic church attendance in Scotland is booming on the back of a large influx of eastern Europeans, particularly Poles, who tend to be far more religious (and prone to drink driving and domestic violence, but there we are).
    That is true of many parts of England as well though, especially rural areas.
    You forget that the BHA nobbled that question last time round, as they want to pretend that they represent "non-religious".

    They have quite a remarkable Parliamentary Network.
    Plus of course they are popular rentagobs on TV and radio.

    As are the NSS.
    Lol. And yet we still have to put up with Platitude for the Day on Radio 4 every morning, still consisting almost entirely of religious contributors.
    That has to be the most annoying thing on Radio 4- getting lectured in a happy clappy woke way that the god person then links somehow to religion (even though religion for centuries and even now is very unwoke) makes my blood boil as i drive up the A46 to work. Its as though the BBC is talking a 16th century format (only god people can lecture on morals) and applying super 2021 wokeness to the content. Sort of hell (pun intended) on earth (or at least hell on the A46)
    It is the utter and complete incoherence of their thought processes that has my head coming into contact with the steering wheel at times. There are exceptions but if that is what passes for thought in religious circles...
    IMHO, Thought for the Day undermines support for religion in the UK.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    There should be an additional top-up to FPTP based on how many total votes were cast across the entire election. Then in a safe seat, voting for a party that's got no chance of winning in FPTP is still somewhat relevant on the top-up system.

    A certain number of additional MP's would then be determined in the proportion upon which the parties were voted for on a national basis.

    I guess similar to the Holyrood list vote but (a) not split into regions, (b) not voted for separately and (c) not gerrymandered to unproportionally over-represent the parties who got relatively few votes.

    That would stop e.g. the hypothetical instance of a party losing every single constituency by one vote and getting no representation at all - nationally they would have piled up a significant fraction of the total vote and should get some representation for that.

    It would also go some way to making elections too determined by geography alone.

    Would need to work out exactly what the split between FPTP and additional top up MPs would need to be to be reasonable and fair.

    That is my Sunday morning not-really-thought-about-it-its-probably-stupid idea. It's probably already a system that has a name.

    It was pretty much what Blair's Jenkins Commission recommended, which Labour had committed to implement, until it reneged in its promise, which taking the long view was as big a mistake by Labour as were some of the LibDems' decisions in coalition.

    In an alternative universe somewhere, Jenkins was implemented, and we never had to endure the false Tory majorities that led to Brexit, and the rest is alternative history...
    But Brexit was backed by 52%...

    This is my problem. Some people want a voting system because they think it will produce outcomes that they support.
    In any universe where Parliament wasn't elected by a FPTP system Cameron wouldn't have got an unexpected majority in 2015 which would have resulted in another coalition where the EU referendum would be quietly shelved.

    The irony is that given the mess the EU has made of vaccines (even the New York Times has an article on it today) leaving was probably for the best.
    Given how advanced our negotiations with AstraZeneca were at the point when Germany suggested the EU take over its own procurement, and the sceptical view we would always have had about handing new powers over to the EU, I very much doubt that we'd have abandoned our procurement exercise in the way that Germany and France did. Far more likely we'd have continued with our own arrangements, as did Hungary from the outset and other EU countries more recently.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Shadow health secretary Jon Ashworth has said caution is needed for the pandemic response given the level of infections.

    He told Sophy Ridge on Sunday: “That will mean, I’m afraid, that governments will have to have the power to impose restrictions where necessary.”

    Ashworth said parts of the Coronavirus Act need to be “properly scrutinised” and he will press Health Secretary Matt Hancock to explain why they are needed, including on social care, but he acknowledged other parts are required.

    Asked if he will be voting in favour, Ashworth described it as “complex” before adding: “We broadly support it, it ought to be properly scrutinised.”


    Now, once the entire adult population has been vaccinated, we must ask why it is that the Government would still need "to have the power to impose restrictions where necessary." How could restrictions be regarded as necessary under such circumstances? What conceivable use would they be? Yes yes, I know, vaccine escaping variants and all that, but you could use that to justify precautionary measures against anything. Emergency powers in case of nuclear war or asteroid impact, anyone?

    The entire point of the vaccination programme is to throw the kinds of Draconian measures we have been forced to live with for the past year in the dustbin and to learn to live with the virus (and the fact that it will still kill a certain number of people,) not to cave in to what another poster has succinctly described as the "Zero Covid psychopaths."

    The Government seems to have taken this idea onboard, although given its established reputation for flip-flopping I can understand why the Covid Recovery Group are nervous. I think that the CRG are wrong to go too hard on ministers under the cover of "data, not dates" - the rationale behind the five-week gap between the unlocking steps has been clearly and satisfactorily explained, even if the baby steps are frustrating - but the extension of the Coronavirus Act all the way to October does not appear to be justified. As Mark Harper has rightly warned this morning, it gives the impression that the Government is keeping the full mechanisms of suppression in its back pocket, ready to bring them all back after the Summer holidays.

    If the Act is to be extended then why not, therefore, until just until the end of August? By that point, based on the Government's timetable, every adult should've been offered at least one dose of the vaccine and had enough time for it to take effect, and we can be reasonably confident that all the clinically vulnerable, health and care workers and everyone over about the age of 40 will have had both shots. If some very limited measures (like masks on public transport, as distinct from locking us all up again for another six months) are needed as the threat of Covid+Flu looms next Winter, then surely these could be introduced through fresh specific legislation, or imposed using the public health laws that existed prior to the pandemic?

    Yes. They could do so afresh quickly if needed as they wouldn't be writing it from scratch next time either. No need to retain.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    edited March 2021
    @state_go_away
    thanks Max - is that for behind the camera studies as well as in front of the camera stuff as well? She does perform but her interest is in production more

    The range of choices here is possibly more suitable. Also a prestigious institution.
    https://www.arts.ac.uk/colleges
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    IanB2 said:

    Most of those cheering FPTP as the creator of good and strong government, were enraged by Blair's third term "majority" on 36% of the vote.

    Nationally in the UK, FPTP is a system that avoids Italian style inertia. But which is worse, Italian style inertia, or 64% of the population without a voice in government?

    And it is remarkable how quickly Italy or Israel gets mentioned in such discussions, while the happy and stable Scandinavian democracies rarely get considered.

    Italian politics is unstable because of Italian history and, well, because they are Italian.
    New Zealand now has PR too as of course does Germany and Spain and the Netherlands and Ireland
  • For me, the question is "which system maximises the number of voters who get their preferred choice elected?"
    FPTP doesn't do that.
    AV is actually worse, if AV resulted in a candidate who didn't receive the biggest number of first preferences getting in, you have actually increased the number of dissatisfied voters.
    STV in multi-member seats is better. The more members per seat, the more happy voters. It suffers from the problem mentioned above with AV, though.
    SNTV in multi-member seats is by definition the best system on my premise.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited March 2021
    I was thinking how Sir Keir could solve the problem of him coming across so dull, & what I came up with was for someone else, or perhaps several other people, to do the hard sell of leader debates/election campaigning while he was the competent brains of the operation in the background. I think Theresa May tried that and it lost her the Conservatives majority though.

    But it made me think that actually it isn’t that good an idea for the public to have presidential style tv debates inform them pre election, and they should be scrapped. Because being insincere but charismatic shouldn’t trump dull competence when it comes to being PM, but it does.

    Maybe it would be better for Labour if they didn’t have a leader, but ruled by committee? The need for the manager to be flamboyant would be negated. An Alpha in charge of subordinates is so right wing
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    Barnesian said:

    When commenting on voting systems it is hard not to be partisan. It is always tempting to argue for systems that favour your own party.

    Standing back, without arguing for a particular voting system, I would argue the following principles are sound and democratic.

    1. Voters in a constituency should have a choice between candidates from the same party. This happens now in multi-member council seats. It doesn't happen in closed list systems or the present system which gives too much power to parties and party activists.

    2. Candidates should be linked to and represent a geography. This happens now with the current parliamentary system. It half happens with the Scottish and GLA systems.

    3. The number of seats should be roughly proportional to the number of votes. It is hard to argue against this on democratic grounds, only on partisan grounds.

    Having first agreed the principles (these or similar) you can then dispassionately compare various possible systems against the principles. Otherwise it's all partisan venting.

    Wow talk about missing the barn door by a mile you seem to have missed the most important bit....

    Voters should be able to have faith that the vote they cast is used to further the policies it was granted for.....something fptp mostly does but PR manifestly fails to do. Instead those policies you gave a guy a vote to push forward are horse traded away for a ministerial limo
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Upsides of FPTP:

    encourages big tents with a range of views inside a party.
    Much more likely to generate decisive governments.

    Downsides
    Safe seats that are barely democratic
    Silencing of minority views
    limits meaningful choice

    For me, in local government, the downsides exceed the benefits. For regional government such as Holyrood it is pretty evenly matched, you can make a case either way. For central government FPTP wins. Patel's one size fits all approach is just stupid.

    Additional downsides:

    Most votes don't count
    Most voters don't see any campaign to win their support
    Safe areas for the other party (and to a lesser extent for your own) can be taken for granted
    Policy choices and spending are directed toward electorally marginal areas
    Opinions that are geographically-based get over-represented and those that aren't get under-represented
    The party that 'wins' may not even be the one with the most support
    Majority power is given to minority views
    Opinions held by significant minorities can go completely or almost unrepresented (cf. Green Party)
    Encourages tactical voting and voting negatively, not healthy for our political debate
    Depresses turnout, as voting in many locations is perceived as a waste of time
    Places excessive power in small internal party cliques (selection and reselection committees)
    Forces a two-party system whether or not this best represents the diversity of views in the country
    Discourages diverse representation (in multi-member elections parties try to put forward diverse slates)
    Because boundaries are all-important this technical detail attracts huge attention with risk of gerrymandering
    Elections can be decided purely by the range of candidates who stand (the 'splitting the vote' problem)
    Tends toward more extreme politics, particularly if extreme views capture one of the larger parties
    Evidence that FPTP countries are more likely to go to war
    Arguments against PR:

    Hitler.
    Godwin's law so soon!

    Who may well have got a majority under FPTP and never needed to bamboozle the President and other parties into making him chancellor
    I thought Godwin's Law was about accusing other people in a debate of being like Hitler.

    To be honest, I don't know if FPTP would have prevented trouble. And actually, I wouldn't be too bothered if we shifted to PR (list rather than some preferential system that shuts out certain views). I doubt we'd end up with the same government all the time. For example, I'm pretty sure that Germany will get a different flavour of coalition this year, which will be interesting.
    FPTP would probably have ensured a strong SPD government with bursts of Centre Party led alternatives.

    So it might have prevented the rise of Hitler.

    But actually the key factor in the rise of Hitler was the presidential system, which was elected under - ummm - AV.
    The reality given the political and economic situation in inter-war Germany is that Hitler would have come to power anyway, whatever the voting system. So it was a cheap and false point in the argument.

    A more interesting question is what history would have transpired had Hitler stuck to painting.
    All political systems can be manipulated or even hijacked by scoundrels. If Johnson (or Blair in 1997) are (were) minded to make their premierships permanent they have (had) enough lap dogs to vote through bizarre parliamentary boundaries to prolong or bolster their governments.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    Dura_Ace said:

    The Conservatives are oddly fetishistic people nowadays, between the flag furore and this, just this week.

    In the past, Conservatives were the pragmatists, chiding others for having fixed ideologies rather than horses for courses.

    How times change.

    I can remember when it was the tory party that led the charge against the National Front politcising the Union Flag... Now they are the spiritual home of the flag shaggers.
    No doubt they will argue they have ‘rescued’ it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    There should be an additional top-up to FPTP based on how many total votes were cast across the entire election. Then in a safe seat, voting for a party that's got no chance of winning in FPTP is still somewhat relevant on the top-up system.

    A certain number of additional MP's would then be determined in the proportion upon which the parties were voted for on a na
    That is my Sunday morning not-really-thought-about-it-its-probably-stupid idea. It's probably already a system that has a name.

    It was pretty much what Blair's Jenkins Commission recommended, which Labour had committed to implement, until it reneged in its promise, which taking the long view was as big a mistake by Labour as were some of the LibDems' decisions in coalition.

    In an alternative universe somewhere, Jenkins was implemented, and we never had to endure the false Tory majorities that led to Brexit, and the rest is alternative history...
    But Brexit was backed by 52%...

    This is my problem. Some people want a voting system because they think it will produce outcomes that they support.
    In any universe where Parliament wasn't elected by a FPTP system Cameron wouldn't have got an unexpected majority in 2015 which would have resulted in another coalition where the EU referendum would be quietly shelved.

    The irony is that given the mess the EU has made of vaccines (even the New York Times has an article on it today) leaving was probably for the best.
    Given how advanced our negotiations with AstraZeneca were at the point when Germany suggested the EU take over its own procurement, and the sceptical view we would always have had about handing new powers over to the EU, I very much doubt that we'd have abandoned our procurement exercise in the way that Germany and France did. Far more likely we'd have continued with our own arrangements, as did Hungary from the outset and other EU countries more recently.
    Actually, a PR election in 2015 would certainly have resulted in a referendum. UKIP would have had 80 or so seats and would have insisted on it, as a condition of supporting the Conservatives.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,450

    Shadow health secretary Jon Ashworth has said caution is needed for the pandemic response given the level of infections.

    He told Sophy Ridge on Sunday: “That will mean, I’m afraid, that governments will have to have the power to impose restrictions where necessary.”

    Ashworth said parts of the Coronavirus Act need to be “properly scrutinised” and he will press Health Secretary Matt Hancock to explain why they are needed, including on social care, but he acknowledged other parts are required.

    Asked if he will be voting in favour, Ashworth described it as “complex” before adding: “We broadly support it, it ought to be properly scrutinised.”


    Now, once the entire adult population has been vaccinated, we must ask why it is that the Government would still need "to have the power to impose restrictions where necessary." How could restrictions be regarded as necessary under such circumstances? What conceivable use would they be? Yes yes, I know, vaccine escaping variants and all that, but you could use that to justify precautionary measures against anything. Emergency powers in case of nuclear war or asteroid impact, anyone?

    The entire point of the vaccination programme is to throw the kinds of Draconian measures we have been forced to live with for the past year in the dustbin and to learn to live with the virus (and the fact that it will still kill a certain number of people,) not to cave in to what another poster has succinctly described as the "Zero Covid psychopaths."

    The Government seems to have taken this idea onboard, although given its established reputation for flip-flopping I can understand why the Covid Recovery Group are nervous. I think that the CRG are wrong to go too hard on ministers under the cover of "data, not dates" - the rationale behind the five-week gap between the unlocking steps has been clearly and satisfactorily explained, even if the baby steps are frustrating - but the extension of the Coronavirus Act all the way to October does not appear to be justified. As Mark Harper has rightly warned this morning, it gives the impression that the Government is keeping the full mechanisms of suppression in its back pocket, ready to bring them all back after the Summer holidays.

    If the Act is to be extended then why not, therefore, until just until the end of August? By that point, based on the Government's timetable, every adult should've been offered at least one dose of the vaccine and had enough time for it to take effect, and we can be reasonably confident that all the clinically vulnerable, health and care workers and everyone over about the age of 40 will have had both shots. If some very limited measures (like masks on public transport, as distinct from locking us all up again for another six months) are needed as the threat of Covid+Flu looms next Winter, then surely these could be introduced through fresh specific legislation, or imposed using the public health laws that existed prior to the pandemic?

    Lisa Nandy, on Rawnsley, in a very measure, straight-forward interview said every much the same as Ashworth. As, of course, one might expect.

    It's too early to scrap everything, and, as the PHE Head of Immunisation said, there may well be a 'new normal'.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    edited March 2021
    The Exhaustive Ballot IS NOT "Quasi-AV" - it's the, er, Exhaustive Ballot!

    Consider - in AV, you get to rank every candidate in "round 1" and the "method" does the rest, whereas in Tory Leadership Elections, you can only vote for ONE candidate in each round, enabling you to change your preference(s) DURING the election.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    RH1992 said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting thread. German Greens policy for a Federal Europe.

    Good to see some debate. I wonder if this is new?

    https://twitter.com/APHClarkson/status/1372971407664103425

    That's the UK never going back then if that happens.
    Agree.

    Yet one thing I want to see is a more mature polity for the EU - not political appointments and Buggin's Turn. I have my preferences, but movement is more important.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    isam said:

    I was thinking how Sir Keir could solve the problem of him coming across so dull, & what I came up with was for someone else, or perhaps several other people, to do the hard sell of leader debates/election campaigning while he was the competent brains of the operation in the background. I think Theresa May tried that and it lost her the Conservatives majority though.

    But it made me think that actually it isn’t that good an idea for the public to have presidential style tv debates inform them pre election, and they should be scrapped. Because being insincere but charismatic shouldn’t trump dull competence when it comes to being PM, but it does.

    Maybe it would be better for Labour if they didn’t have a leader, but ruled by committee? The need for the manager to be flamboyant would be negated

    'Because being insincere but charismatic shouldn’t trump dull competence when it comes to being PM, but it does.'

    That may usually be the case but not always, otherwise the dull Attlee would not have beaten the more charismatic Churchill in 1945, the dull Heath would not have beaten the more charismatic Wilson in 1970 and the dull Major would not have beaten the more charismatic Kinnock in 1992 and even in 2017 the dull May won more seats than the more charismatic Corbyn.

    Internationally too in 2012 the dull Hollande beat the more charismatic Sarkozy in France and in 2020 the dull Biden beat the more charismatic Trump in the USA
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,601
    Pagan2 said:

    Barnesian said:

    When commenting on voting systems it is hard not to be partisan. It is always tempting to argue for systems that favour your own party.

    Standing back, without arguing for a particular voting system, I would argue the following principles are sound and democratic.

    1. Voters in a constituency should have a choice between candidates from the same party. This happens now in multi-member council seats. It doesn't happen in closed list systems or the present system which gives too much power to parties and party activists.

    2. Candidates should be linked to and represent a geography. This happens now with the current parliamentary system. It half happens with the Scottish and GLA systems.

    3. The number of seats should be roughly proportional to the number of votes. It is hard to argue against this on democratic grounds, only on partisan grounds.

    Having first agreed the principles (these or similar) you can then dispassionately compare various possible systems against the principles. Otherwise it's all partisan venting.

    Wow talk about missing the barn door by a mile you seem to have missed the most important bit....

    Voters should be able to have faith that the vote they cast is used to further the policies it was granted for.....something fptp mostly does but PR manifestly fails to do. Instead those policies you gave a guy a vote to push forward are horse traded away for a ministerial limo
    :) It is you that has missed the barn door!

    Under the present system most voters can have zero faith that their vote is used to further the policies they voted for! You can see that can't you? Or do I need to explain?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    edited March 2021
    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    There should be an additional top-up to FPTP based on how many total votes were cast across the entire election. Then in a safe seat, voting for a party that's got no chance of winning in FPTP is still somewhat relevant on the top-up system.

    A certain number of additional MP's would then be determined in the proportion upon which the parties were voted for on a national basis.

    I guess similar to the Holyrood list vote but (a) not split into regions, (b) not voted for separately and (c) not gerrymandered to unproportionally over-represent the parties who got relatively few votes.

    That would stop e.g. the hypothetical instance of a party losing every single constituency by one vote and getting no representation at all - nationally they would have piled up a significant fraction of the total vote and should get some representation for that.

    It would also go some way to making elections too determined by geography alone.

    Would need to work out exactly what the split between FPTP and additional top up MPs would need to be to be reasonable and fair.

    That is my Sunday morning not-really-thought-about-it-its-probably-stupid idea. It's probably already a system that has a name.

    It was pretty much what Blair's Jenkins Commission recommended, which Labour had committed to implement, until it reneged in its promise, which taking the long view was as big a mistake by Labour as were some of the LibDems' decisions in coalition.

    In an alternative universe somewhere, Jenkins was implemented, and we never had to endure the false Tory majorities that led to Brexit, and the rest is alternative history...
    But Brexit was backed by 52%...

    This is my problem. Some people want a voting system because they think it will produce outcomes that they support.
    In any universe where Parliament wasn't elected by a FPTP system Cameron wouldn't have got an unexpected majority in 2015 which would have resulted in another coalition where the EU referendum would be quietly shelved.

    The irony is that given the mess the EU has made of vaccines (even the New York Times has an article on it today) leaving was probably for the best.
    In 2015 UKIP got 13% to 8% for the LDs and UKIP would have held the balance of power in a hung parliament between the Tories on 37% and Labour on 30% and demanded an EU referendum as their price for supporting Cameron's Tories anyway
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put "No Religion", and, to my surprise, so did my Mum!
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    RH1992 said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting thread. German Greens policy for a Federal Europe.

    Good to see some debate. I wonder if this is new?

    https://twitter.com/APHClarkson/status/1372971407664103425

    That's the UK never going back then if that happens.
    I’ve been of the view for a long time that the European project must evermore waddle, swim and quack like a federation if the show is to be kept on the road. The Euro was the kicker. Can’t get rid of it in the short term, can’t keep it in the long term. Unless you federalise. That’s by design not accident of course.

    Thereby the federalistas have achieved a lot by slowly and quietly boiling the frog but at some point they need to lay the cards on the table. Perhaps we’re approaching that point.

    Thank god we’re out of it before that debate gets in full swing. It’s why without any hesitation I ticked Leave. People always looked hurt or confused when I said it was too darn risky to stay in. I get the sense that more people now get my point. One of the most ardent Remainers I know says in the aftermath of vaccinegate that it was always obvious to everyone that leaving would be better for the Uk in the long run, it was just the antagonistic tone of the debate that he didn’t like. Hmmm.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    There should be an additional top-up to FPTP based on how many total votes were cast across the entire election. Then in a safe seat, voting for a party that's got no chance of winning in FPTP is still somewhat relevant on the top-up system.

    A certain number of additional MP's would then be determined in the proportion upon which the parties were voted for on a national basis.

    I guess similar to the Holyrood list vote but (a) not split into regions, (b) not voted for separately and (c) not gerrymandered to unproportionally over-represent the parties who got relatively few votes.

    That would stop e.g. the hypothetical instance of a party losing every single constituency by one vote and getting no representation at all - nationally they would have piled up a significant fraction of the total vote and should get some representation for that.

    It would also go some way to making elections too determined by geography alone.

    Would need to work out exactly what the split between FPTP and additional top up MPs would need to be to be reasonable and fair.

    That is my Sunday morning not-really-thought-about-it-its-probably-stupid idea. It's probably already a system that has a name.

    It was pretty much what Blair's Jenkins Commission recommended, which Labour had committed to implement, until it reneged in its promise, which taking the long view was as big a mistake by Labour as were some of the LibDems' decisions in coalition.

    In an alternative universe somewhere, Jenkins was implemented, and we never had to endure the false Tory majorities that led to Brexit, and the rest is alternative history...
    But Brexit was backed by 52%...

    This is my problem. Some people want a voting system because they think it will produce outcomes that they support.
    In any universe where Parliament wasn't elected by a FPTP system Cameron wouldn't have got an unexpected majority in 2015 which would have resulted in another coalition where the EU referendum would be quietly shelved.

    The irony is that given the mess the EU has made of vaccines (even the New York Times has an article on it today) leaving was probably for the best.
    In 2015 UKIP got 13% to 8% for the LDs and UKIP would have held the balance of power in a hung parliament between the Tories on 37% and Labour on 30% and demanded an EU referendum as their price for supporting Cameron's Tories anyway
    Yes, at 2015 GE, the Right just scraped a 51% majority of votes. But in 2019, the Left (although fractured!) got a majority of votes.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    Barnesian said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Barnesian said:

    When commenting on voting systems it is hard not to be partisan. It is always tempting to argue for systems that favour your own party.

    Standing back, without arguing for a particular voting system, I would argue the following principles are sound and democratic.

    1. Voters in a constituency should have a choice between candidates from the same party. This happens now in multi-member council seats. It doesn't happen in closed list systems or the present system which gives too much power to parties and party activists.

    2. Candidates should be linked to and represent a geography. This happens now with the current parliamentary system. It half happens with the Scottish and GLA systems.

    3. The number of seats should be roughly proportional to the number of votes. It is hard to argue against this on democratic grounds, only on partisan grounds.

    Having first agreed the principles (these or similar) you can then dispassionately compare various possible systems against the principles. Otherwise it's all partisan venting.

    Wow talk about missing the barn door by a mile you seem to have missed the most important bit....

    Voters should be able to have faith that the vote they cast is used to further the policies it was granted for.....something fptp mostly does but PR manifestly fails to do. Instead those policies you gave a guy a vote to push forward are horse traded away for a ministerial limo
    :) It is you that has missed the barn door!

    Under the present system most voters can have zero faith that their vote is used to further the policies they voted for! You can see that can't you? Or do I need to explain?
    You conflate two different things though, obviously the votes of those people who didn't vote for the winner in each candidate don't get what they voted for. However those that voted for the winner do get what they actually voted for.

    Under PR precisely no one gets the policy platform they actually voted for because a lot of it gets horse traded away in backroom coalition deals. Ask you fellow lib dems from 2010 if they got what they voted for in the coalition negotiations, judging by your descent in the polls almost immediately I am guessing not. In fact a lot seemed quite angry their votes were in effect 'stolen' and used to claim a mandate for policies they would never have voted for.

    I don't want to cast a vote, then after they are counted wait to find out what I voted for. That is fruit machine politics. Put my vote in pull the lever and hope to win some good policies.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put "No Religion", and, to my surprise, so did my Mum!
    Who was the MP who shouted in a debate on disestablishment, 'Hands off the church of England! It's all that stands between this country and Christianity.'
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    This "UK census" doesn't include Scotland as a part of the SNP differentiation policy (see Covid et al). I think we are doing our census next year. My wild guess is that Scotland may just be a bit more Christian than the rest of the UK (fewer immigrants from non Christian countries, quite a lot (proportionally) from Catholic ones, the wee Free nutters, etc) so that might just tip the balance.
    I would actually have expected it to be less Christian overall, albeit probably also less Muslim and Jewish, but I could easily be wrong.

    There are of course pockets of very strict Christian observance in Scotland in a way there no longer is in England or Wales, but they are very small.
    Catholic church attendance in Scotland is booming on the back of a large influx of eastern Europeans, particularly Poles, who tend to be far more religious (and prone to drink driving and domestic violence, but there we are).
    That is true of many parts of England as well though, especially rural areas.
    You forget that the BHA nobbled that question last time round, as they want to pretend that they represent "non-religious".

    They have quite a remarkable Parliamentary Network.
    Plus of course they are popular rentagobs on TV and radio.

    As are the NSS.
    Lol. And yet we still have to put up with Platitude for the Day on Radio 4 every morning, still consisting almost entirely of religious contributors.
    That has to be the most annoying thing on Radio 4- getting lectured in a happy clappy woke way that the god person then links somehow to religion (even though religion for centuries and even now is very unwoke) makes my blood boil as i drive up the A46 to work. Its as though the BBC is talking a 16th century format (only god people can lecture on morals) and applying super 2021 wokeness to the content. Sort of hell (pun intended) on earth (or at least hell on the A46)
    It is the utter and complete incoherence of their thought processes that has my head coming into contact with the steering wheel at times. There are exceptions but if that is what passes for thought in religious circles...
    IMHO, Thought for the Day undermines support for religion in the UK.
    So not a complete waste of time then?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Shadow health secretary Jon Ashworth has said caution is needed for the pandemic response given the level of infections.

    He told Sophy Ridge on Sunday: “That will mean, I’m afraid, that governments will have to have the power to impose restrictions where necessary.”

    Ashworth said parts of the Coronavirus Act need to be “properly scrutinised” and he will press Health Secretary Matt Hancock to explain why they are needed, including on social care, but he acknowledged other parts are required.

    Asked if he will be voting in favour, Ashworth described it as “complex” before adding: “We broadly support it, it ought to be properly scrutinised.”


    Now, once the entire adult population has been vaccinated, we must ask why it is that the Government would still need "to have the power to impose restrictions where necessary." How could restrictions be regarded as necessary under such circumstances? What conceivable use would they be? Yes yes, I know, vaccine escaping variants and all that, but you could use that to justify precautionary measures against anything. Emergency powers in case of nuclear war or asteroid impact, anyone?

    The entire point of the vaccination programme is to throw the kinds of Draconian measures we have been forced to live with for the past year in the dustbin and to learn to live with the virus (and the fact that it will still kill a certain number of people,) not to cave in to what another poster has succinctly described as the "Zero Covid psychopaths."

    The Government seems to have taken this idea onboard, although given its established reputation for flip-flopping I can understand why the Covid Recovery Group are nervous. I think that the CRG are wrong to go too hard on ministers under the cover of "data, not dates" - the rationale behind the five-week gap between the unlocking steps has been clearly and satisfactorily explained, even if the baby steps are frustrating - but the extension of the Coronavirus Act all the way to October does not appear to be justified. As Mark Harper has rightly warned this morning, it gives the impression that the Government is keeping the full mechanisms of suppression in its back pocket, ready to bring them all back after the Summer holidays.

    If the Act is to be extended then why not, therefore, until just until the end of August? By that point, based on the Government's timetable, every adult should've been offered at least one dose of the vaccine and had enough time for it to take effect, and we can be reasonably confident that all the clinically vulnerable, health and care workers and everyone over about the age of 40 will have had both shots. If some very limited measures (like masks on public transport, as distinct from locking us all up again for another six months) are needed as the threat of Covid+Flu looms next Winter, then surely these could be introduced through fresh specific legislation, or imposed using the public health laws that existed prior to the pandemic?

    Lisa Nandy, on Rawnsley, in a very measure, straight-forward interview said every much the same as Ashworth. As, of course, one might expect.

    It's too early to scrap everything, and, as the PHE Head of Immunisation said, there may well be a 'new normal'.
    It depends what you mean by "new normal." If that means inevitable socio-economic change like more working from home then that's just an evolutionary process which, for good or ill, we'll have to live with. If "new normal" means that some restrictions carry on forever then no fucking way should we be expected to put up with that bollocks.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    This "UK census" doesn't include Scotland as a part of the SNP differentiation policy (see Covid et al). I think we are doing our census next year. My wild guess is that Scotland may just be a bit more Christian than the rest of the UK (fewer immigrants from non Christian countries, quite a lot (proportionally) from Catholic ones, the wee Free nutters, etc) so that might just tip the balance.
    I would actually have expected it to be less Christian overall, albeit probably also less Muslim and Jewish, but I could easily be wrong.

    There are of course pockets of very strict Christian observance in Scotland in a way there no longer is in England or Wales, but they are very small.
    Catholic church attendance in Scotland is booming on the back of a large influx of eastern Europeans, particularly Poles, who tend to be far more religious (and prone to drink driving and domestic violence, but there we are).
    That is true of many parts of England as well though, especially rural areas.
    You forget that the BHA nobbled that question last time round, as they want to pretend that they represent "non-religious".

    They have quite a remarkable Parliamentary Network.
    Plus of course they are popular rentagobs on TV and radio.

    As are the NSS.
    Lol. And yet we still have to put up with Platitude for the Day on Radio 4 every morning, still consisting almost entirely of religious contributors.
    That has to be the most annoying thing on Radio 4- getting lectured in a happy clappy woke way that the god person then links somehow to religion (even though religion for centuries and even now is very unwoke) makes my blood boil as i drive up the A46 to work. Its as though the BBC is talking a 16th century format (only god people can lecture on morals) and applying super 2021 wokeness to the content. Sort of hell (pun intended) on earth (or at least hell on the A46)
    It is the utter and complete incoherence of their thought processes that has my head coming into contact with the steering wheel at times. There are exceptions but if that is what passes for thought in religious circles...
    The only one worth listening to was Rabbi Jonathan Sacks. The rest spout drivel.
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 193
    If a supposedly right wing mp in Priti Patel wants a right wing govt then she is more likely to get it currently under PR than under FPTP as the temptation for the Tory govt is to position itself just to the right of the Labour party to maximise its chances of winning under FPTP.If the Tories had to worry about a UKIP type party then there would be more chance of the Tories introducing 'right wing policies'.
    Note in Holland and other EU countries the left have faded into nowhere land under PR.
    In Britain Labour may lose national elections but their metropolitian guardian worldview has been getting empowered over the last 6 years whilst cultural and social conservatives are getting marginalised. FPTP is not the only reason why but it is still a factor
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,450
    moonshine said:

    RH1992 said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting thread. German Greens policy for a Federal Europe.

    Good to see some debate. I wonder if this is new?

    https://twitter.com/APHClarkson/status/1372971407664103425

    That's the UK never going back then if that happens.
    I’ve been of the view for a long time that the European project must evermore waddle, swim and quack like a federation if the show is to be kept on the road. The Euro was the kicker. Can’t get rid of it in the short term, can’t keep it in the long term. Unless you federalise. That’s by design not accident of course.

    Thereby the federalistas have achieved a lot by slowly and quietly boiling the frog but at some point they need to lay the cards on the table. Perhaps we’re approaching that point.

    Thank god we’re out of it before that debate gets in full swing. It’s why without any hesitation I ticked Leave. People always looked hurt or confused when I said it was too darn risky to stay in. I get the sense that more people now get my point. One of the most ardent Remainers I know says in the aftermath of vaccinegate that it was always obvious to everyone that leaving would be better for the Uk in the long run, it was just the antagonistic tone of the debate that he didn’t like. Hmmm.
    Agree with the first two paragraphs, but totally disagree with the third. Those first two are why I voted Remain, why I don't regret doing so and why I hope, even at my age, to see us Rejoin.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    Nigelb said:

    @state_go_away
    thanks Max - is that for behind the camera studies as well as in front of the camera stuff as well? She does perform but her interest is in production more

    The range of choices here is possibly more suitable. Also a prestigious institution.
    https://www.arts.ac.uk/colleges

    Sorry, @state_go_away - had a brain fade. Ignore that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    RH1992 said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting thread. German Greens policy for a Federal Europe.

    Good to see some debate. I wonder if this is new?

    https://twitter.com/APHClarkson/status/1372971407664103425

    That's the UK never going back then if that happens.
    But what is being proposed there is simply a coherent and logical consequence of the policies that were already in place. The EU and the ECB have been remarkably fortunate to get away with such an incoherent structure in both 2008 and now with Covid. Only the unflinching backing of the Germans has held it together and its been touch and go.

    Sooner or later fiscal policy and monetary policy need to be unified. That can happen either at Nation State level or at EU level but this split is dangerous, risky and damaging. This is a way of bringing them together at EU level. Anyone who voted to remain and didn't accept the logic of this really hadn't thought things through particularly well. A vote for remain was never a vote for the status quo. It was a vote for this or something similar.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    There should be an additional top-up to FPTP based on how many total votes were cast across the entire election. Then in a safe seat, voting for a party that's got no chance of winning in FPTP is still somewhat relevant on the top-up system.

    A certain number of additional MP's would then be determined in the proportion upon which the parties were voted for on a national basis.

    I guess similar to the Holyrood list vote but (a) not split into regions, (b) not voted for separately and (c) not gerrymandered to unproportionally over-represent the parties who got relatively few votes.

    That would stop e.g. the hypothetical instance of a party losing every single constituency by one vote and getting no representation at all - nationally they would have piled up a significant fraction of the total vote and should get some representation for that.

    It would also go some way to making elections too determined by geography alone.

    Would need to work out exactly what the split between FPTP and additional top up MPs would need to be to be reasonable and fair.

    That is my Sunday morning not-really-thought-about-it-its-probably-stupid idea. It's probably already a system that has a name.

    It was pretty much what Blair's Jenkins Commission recommended, which Labour had committed to implement, until it reneged in its promise, which taking the long view was as big a mistake by Labour as were some of the LibDems' decisions in coalition.

    In an alternative universe somewhere, Jenkins was implemented, and we never had to endure the false Tory majorities that led to Brexit, and the rest is alternative history...
    But Brexit was backed by 52%...

    This is my problem. Some people want a voting system because they think it will produce outcomes that they support.
    In any universe where Parliament wasn't elected by a FPTP system Cameron wouldn't have got an unexpected majority in 2015 which would have resulted in another coalition where the EU referendum would be quietly shelved.

    The irony is that given the mess the EU has made of vaccines (even the New York Times has an article on it today) leaving was probably for the best.
    In 2015 UKIP got 13% to 8% for the LDs and UKIP would have held the balance of power in a hung parliament between the Tories on 37% and Labour on 30% and demanded an EU referendum as their price for supporting Cameron's Tories anyway
    In an AV based system voting would be very different in 2010 so we really would be in a very different world.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited March 2021
    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    There should be an additional top-up to FPTP based on how many total votes were cast across the entire election. Then in a safe seat, voting for a party that's got no chance of winning in FPTP is still somewhat relevant on the top-up system.

    A certain number of additional MP's would then be determined in the proportion upon which the parties were voted for on a na
    That is my Sunday morning not-really-thought-about-it-its-probably-stupid idea. It's probably already a system that has a name.

    It was pretty much what Blair's Jenkins Commission recommended, which Labour had committed to implement, until it reneged in its promise, which taking the long view was as big a mistake by Labour as were some of the LibDems' decisions in coalition.

    In an alternative universe somewhere, Jenkins was implemented, and we never had to endure the false Tory majorities that led to Brexit, and the rest is alternative history...
    But Brexit was backed by 52%...

    This is my problem. Some people want a voting system because they think it will produce outcomes that they support.
    In any universe where Parliament wasn't elected by a FPTP system Cameron wouldn't have got an unexpected majority in 2015 which would have resulted in another coalition where the EU referendum would be quietly shelved.

    The irony is that given the mess the EU has made of vaccines (even the New York Times has an article on it today) leaving was probably for the best.
    Given how advanced our negotiations with AstraZeneca were at the point when Germany suggested the EU take over its own procurement, and the sceptical view we would always have had about handing new powers over to the EU, I very much doubt that we'd have abandoned our procurement exercise in the way that Germany and France did. Far more likely we'd have continued with our own arrangements, as did Hungary from the outset and other EU countries more recently.
    Actually, a PR election in 2015 would certainly have resulted in a referendum. UKIP would have had 80 or so seats and would have insisted on it, as a condition of supporting the Conservatives.
    Well, I am prepared to accept that and still argue for a fairer voting system as advantageous in principle :)

    I am sure the performance of all those UKIP MPs, rightly elected as representing a significant slice of the electorate, would have behaved as responsibly and maturely as their small phalanx of councillors and that this would surely have furthered their cause.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The UK did nearly as many vaccinations yesterday as the entire EU:

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited March 2021
    Many of the reasons why people support FPTP for Westminster are completely irrelevant for the likes of Mayoral elections - things like the constituency link etc. To argue that the principled support of FPTP for Westminster (partly on the grounds of "what works") have anything to do with other elections is ridiculous. Any electoral system should be designed around the outcomes it is trying to achieve.

    And that means looking at each election on its own merits and not trying to ram through changes on the back of the 2011 referendum. And frankly - the raising of the situation of the Tory party election encapsulates that perfectly. I can't believe the Tories would want to change the rules for that, so they won't.

    It is worrying that there increasingly seem to be arguments being raised around elections which are following the path of what the Republicans have got to in America. We are not at the same stage, some of the arguments are not quite descending into blatant anti-democracy territory - but it is a path which could easily be followed by a Government intent on so doing.

    In America, the Republican argument at present literally seems to be (and they have argued this recently in front of the Supreme Court no less) that America is a two party system by design, and if it appears that the unpopularity of one party falls too much, then the system should be changed to ensure they remain competitive. No obligation on said unpopular party to adapt their political platform (the traditional general approach and reason for historic success of the Conservatives in the UK) simply disenfranchise the opposition to even out the numbers. If GOP support in America fell to 30%, they believe that voting constituencies should be restricted to 60% of the potential vote.

    (there is also the troubling use of Governing majorities to influence or delay boundary reviews - before long we are going to be heading for (small scale) pre 1832 situations, or akin to failure to eg. revise Council Tax limits, on the grounds that changes will result in too extreme a shift in political fortune as self interest kicks in).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    The UK did nearly as many vaccinations yesterday as the entire EU:

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


    See those vampires have been at it again in Cyprus.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    MaxPB said:

    Anyway assuming that the UK and the world does not carry on being overly obsessed with covid -19 beyond a few months my daughter will be reaching university age soon and is interested and good at "behind the scenes " performing arts (ie film/TV /social media (she has 60K followers on Tik Tok apparently!) production and likes theatre as well. Does anyone know the best universities for this kind of thing . Not to academic but more practical in those areas?

    RADA is the global leader.
    thanks Max - is that for behind the camera studies as well as in front of the camera stuff as well? She does perform but her interest is in production more
    It might be worth considering a non-university route for something that vocational: has she considered an apprenticeship or even just applying directly to a production company?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    The UK did nearly as many vaccinations yesterday as the entire EU:

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


    How did Cyprus do -18000 vaccines?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1373576805681143808

    Given the source, more like "Our virulent Anglophobia means that every story must be twisted into a Brit-bashing opportunity"
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    edited March 2021

    IanB2 said:

    Most of those cheering FPTP as the creator of good and strong government, were enraged by Blair's third term "majority" on 36% of the vote.

    Nationally in the UK, FPTP is a system that avoids Italian style inertia. But which is worse, Italian style inertia, or 64% of the population without a voice in government?

    And it is remarkable how quickly Italy or Israel gets mentioned in such discussions, while the happy and stable Scandinavian democracies rarely get considered.

    Italian politics is unstable because of Italian history and, well, because they are Italian.
    As a proponent of proportional voting systems, I am happy to take the rough with the smooth. 2017 would have given Mrs May a massive pro-hard-Brexit mandate under a PR system, and yet under FPTP, no mandate for her Brexit means Brexit position. Not what I voted for, but it is what (I believe) a genuine 50% plus majority under PR voted for. Therefore fair, if nothing else.

    So what did that branch of the Conservative Party do, when under their preferred electoral system they could not get their way? They claimed a "zombie parliament".
    The Scandies owe their stability to having Constitutional Monarchies :smile: .
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    I was thinking how Sir Keir could solve the problem of him coming across so dull, & what I came up with was for someone else, or perhaps several other people, to do the hard sell of leader debates/election campaigning while he was the competent brains of the operation in the background. I think Theresa May tried that and it lost her the Conservatives majority though.

    But it made me think that actually it isn’t that good an idea for the public to have presidential style tv debates inform them pre election, and they should be scrapped. Because being insincere but charismatic shouldn’t trump dull competence when it comes to being PM, but it does.

    Maybe it would be better for Labour if they didn’t have a leader, but ruled by committee? The need for the manager to be flamboyant would be negated

    'Because being insincere but charismatic shouldn’t trump dull competence when it comes to being PM, but it does.'

    That may usually be the case but not always, otherwise the dull Attlee would not have beaten the more charismatic Churchill in 1945, the dull Heath would not have beaten the more charismatic Wilson in 1970 and the dull Major would not have beaten the more charismatic Kinnock in 1992 and even in 2017 the dull May won more seats than the more charismatic Corbyn.

    Internationally too in 2012 the dull Hollande beat the more charismatic Sarkozy in France and in 2020 the dull Biden beat the more charismatic Trump in the USA
    The first three were before the reality tv/dumbing down celebrity era that we live in. Dull May threw away a supposed 20% lead in opinion polls due to her lack of personality during the campaign
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    moonshine said:

    RH1992 said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting thread. German Greens policy for a Federal Europe.

    Good to see some debate. I wonder if this is new?

    https://twitter.com/APHClarkson/status/1372971407664103425

    That's the UK never going back then if that happens.
    I’ve been of the view for a long time that the European project must evermore waddle, swim and quack like a federation if the show is to be kept on the road. The Euro was the kicker. Can’t get rid of it in the short term, can’t keep it in the long term. Unless you federalise. That’s by design not accident of course.

    Thereby the federalistas have achieved a lot by slowly and quietly boiling the frog but at some point they need to lay the cards on the table. Perhaps we’re approaching that point.

    Thank god we’re out of it before that debate gets in full swing. It’s why without any hesitation I ticked Leave. People always looked hurt or confused when I said it was too darn risky to stay in. I get the sense that more people now get my point. One of the most ardent Remainers I know says in the aftermath of vaccinegate that it was always obvious to everyone that leaving would be better for the Uk in the long run, it was just the antagonistic tone of the debate that he didn’t like. Hmmm.
    Agree with the first two paragraphs, but totally disagree with the third. Those first two are why I voted Remain, why I don't regret doing so and why I hope, even at my age, to see us Rejoin.
    If things progress in that direction then there is virtually no possibility (even if they want us back) of our voting to abolish ourselves and become a state/province of the Federal European Republic. At a guess, I would imagine that just about the only people who view that as desirable are the #FBPE mob on Twitter. It's a fringe obsession.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Most of those cheering FPTP as the creator of good and strong government, were enraged by Blair's third term "majority" on 36% of the vote.

    Nationally in the UK, FPTP is a system that avoids Italian style inertia. But which is worse, Italian style inertia, or 64% of the population without a voice in government?

    And it is remarkable how quickly Italy or Israel gets mentioned in such discussions, while the happy and stable Scandinavian democracies rarely get considered.

    Italian politics is unstable because of Italian history and, well, because they are Italian.
    As a proponent of proportional voting systems, I am happy to take the rough with the smooth. 2017 would have given Mrs May a massive pro-hard-Brexit mandate under a PR system, and yet under FPTP, no mandate for her Brexit means Brexit position. Not what I voted for, but it is what (I believe) a genuine 50% plus majority under PR voted for. Therefore fair, if nothing else.

    So what did that branch of the Conservative Party do, when under their preferred electoral system they could not get their way? They claimed a "zombie parliament".
    The Scandies owe their stability to having Constitutional Monarchies :smile: .
    Finland is a republic!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    edited March 2021
    ydoethur said:

    The UK did nearly as many vaccinations yesterday as the entire EU:

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


    How did Cyprus do -18000 vaccines?
    18,000 fewer vaccinations than the previous day? (says "Change")
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Most of those cheering FPTP as the creator of good and strong government, were enraged by Blair's third term "majority" on 36% of the vote.

    Nationally in the UK, FPTP is a system that avoids Italian style inertia. But which is worse, Italian style inertia, or 64% of the population without a voice in government?

    And it is remarkable how quickly Italy or Israel gets mentioned in such discussions, while the happy and stable Scandinavian democracies rarely get considered.

    Italian politics is unstable because of Italian history and, well, because they are Italian.
    As a proponent of proportional voting systems, I am happy to take the rough with the smooth. 2017 would have given Mrs May a massive pro-hard-Brexit mandate under a PR system, and yet under FPTP, no mandate for her Brexit means Brexit position. Not what I voted for, but it is what (I believe) a genuine 50% plus majority under PR voted for. Therefore fair, if nothing else.

    So what did that branch of the Conservative Party do, when under their preferred electoral system they could not get their way? They claimed a "zombie parliament".
    The Scandies owe their stability to having Constitutional Monarchies :smile: .
    Finland is a republic!
    Finland is not part of Scandinavia.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    edited March 2021
    Two of the world's biggest democracies rely almost entirely on FPTP: India and the USA. Don't think either country will change that very soon.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    The UK did nearly as many vaccinations yesterday as the entire EU:

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


    How did Cyprus do -18000 vaccines?
    18,000 fewer vaccinations than the previous day? Week?
    I'm assuming it was the correction of a previous error, but it still looks a bit daft.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Most of those cheering FPTP as the creator of good and strong government, were enraged by Blair's third term "majority" on 36% of the vote.

    Nationally in the UK, FPTP is a system that avoids Italian style inertia. But which is worse, Italian style inertia, or 64% of the population without a voice in government?

    And it is remarkable how quickly Italy or Israel gets mentioned in such discussions, while the happy and stable Scandinavian democracies rarely get considered.

    Italian politics is unstable because of Italian history and, well, because they are Italian.
    As a proponent of proportional voting systems, I am happy to take the rough with the smooth. 2017 would have given Mrs May a massive pro-hard-Brexit mandate under a PR system, and yet under FPTP, no mandate for her Brexit means Brexit position. Not what I voted for, but it is what (I believe) a genuine 50% plus majority under PR voted for. Therefore fair, if nothing else.

    So what did that branch of the Conservative Party do, when under their preferred electoral system they could not get their way? They claimed a "zombie parliament".
    The Scandies owe their stability to having Constitutional Monarchies :smile: .
    Finland is a republic!
    Finland is not part of Scandinavia.
    "Scandinavia, historically Scandia, part of Northern Europe, generally held to consist of the two countries of the Scandinavian Peninsula, Norway and Sweden, with the addition of Denmark. Some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland on geologic and economic grounds and of Iceland and the Faroe Islands on the grounds that their inhabitants speak Scandinavian languages related to those of Norway and Sweden and also have similar cultures."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The UK did nearly as many vaccinations yesterday as the entire EU:

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


    How did Cyprus do -18000 vaccines?
    18,000 fewer vaccinations than the previous day? Week?
    I'm assuming it was the correction of a previous error, but it still looks a bit daft.
    The column says "Change", presumably from the previosu day's tally, no?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,764
    edited March 2021
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1373564738374864896

    Is it time to stop scientists speaking "in a personal capacity" when they are on SAGE or other committees?

    It is getting ridiculous now. Every day one of them pops up to say lockdown or other restrictions will have to continue for months or years to come. Where is the science behind these statements? And don't I mean a couple of C++ models with massive assumptions (e.g. vaccines aren't as efficient as they really turn out to be).

    What was the point of being super fast on vaccine strategy?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The UK did nearly as many vaccinations yesterday as the entire EU:

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


    How did Cyprus do -18000 vaccines?
    18,000 fewer vaccinations than the previous day? Week?
    I'm assuming it was the correction of a previous error, but it still looks a bit daft.
    The column says "Change", presumably from the previosu day's tally, no?
    I don't think our number of vaccines administered increased by 711,000 day on day (although it would be wonderful if it had). So I am assuming it is the change in the cumulative total
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
    I doubt that but when it comes to religion people certainly play with it.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    MaxPB said:

    Anyway assuming that the UK and the world does not carry on being overly obsessed with covid -19 beyond a few months my daughter will be reaching university age soon and is interested and good at "behind the scenes " performing arts (ie film/TV /social media (she has 60K followers on Tik Tok apparently!) production and likes theatre as well. Does anyone know the best universities for this kind of thing . Not to academic but more practical in those areas?

    RADA is the global leader.
    thanks Max - is that for behind the camera studies as well as in front of the camera stuff as well? She does perform but her interest is in production more
    It might be worth considering a non-university route for something that vocational: has she considered an apprenticeship or even just applying directly to a production company?
    STRONGLY suggest she considers Falmouth University. It offers what she wants in a very creative community. With sunshine.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
    I doubt that but when it comes to religion people certainly play with it.
    Plenty of republics are Christian - consider Germany's CDU/CSU.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
    I doubt that but when it comes to religion people certainly play with it.
    The idea of simply responding on the basis of what religion or none that you believe clearly being too straightforward for you?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
    I doubt that but when it comes to religion people certainly play with it.
    Plenty of republics are Christian - consider Germany's CDU/CSU.
    Yes, and that doesn't invalidate my point about the terms of public debate in the UK - or how it operates.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    The Exhaustive Ballot IS NOT "Quasi-AV" - it's the, er, Exhaustive Ballot!

    Consider - in AV, you get to rank every candidate in "round 1" and the "method" does the rest, whereas in Tory Leadership Elections, you can only vote for ONE candidate in each round, enabling you to change your preference(s) DURING the election.

    Useful for those who change their mind between rounds - I wonder what percentage of the electorate that is.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
    I doubt that but when it comes to religion people certainly play with it.
    Everybody is in entitled to their own opinion, but I told it straight.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1373577354975526913

    Look at the vaccination rate - .09% in a day.......
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
    I doubt that but when it comes to religion people certainly play with it.
    The idea of simply responding on the basis of what religion or none that you believe clearly being too straightforward for you?
    I am a cultural Christian. I go a handful of times a year and do christenings, weddings and funerals in church. I am not a regular Sunday worshipper, but few people are, and CofE is a far better way of describing my identity than putting I'm an atheist.

    I think there are millions like me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    It’s a truism that systems based on large datasets reflect our prejudices, but this is quite something.
    https://twitter.com/DoraVargha/status/1373211762108076034
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
    I doubt that but when it comes to religion people certainly play with it.
    Everybody is in entitled to their own opinion, but I told it straight.
    If one post from me changed your answer on the form then, no you didn't.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,450
    edited March 2021

    Two of the world's biggest democracies rely almost entirely on FPTP: India and the USA. Don't think either country will change that very soon.

    Is that supposed to be a recommendation? Anyway, given the shenanigans over voting rights last year, does the USA really qualify as a democracy?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,450
    Fenman said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyway assuming that the UK and the world does not carry on being overly obsessed with covid -19 beyond a few months my daughter will be reaching university age soon and is interested and good at "behind the scenes " performing arts (ie film/TV /social media (she has 60K followers on Tik Tok apparently!) production and likes theatre as well. Does anyone know the best universities for this kind of thing . Not to academic but more practical in those areas?

    RADA is the global leader.
    thanks Max - is that for behind the camera studies as well as in front of the camera stuff as well? She does perform but her interest is in production more
    It might be worth considering a non-university route for something that vocational: has she considered an apprenticeship or even just applying directly to a production company?
    STRONGLY suggest she considers Falmouth University. It offers what she wants in a very creative community. With sunshine.
    Wherever she goes I wish her well, and very sincerely hope that she doesn't have the experience of a young man of my acquaintance who graduated in a similar area last year and, AFAIK, hasn't had a sniff of an appropriate job since.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,532

    https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1373576805681143808

    Given the source, more like "Our virulent Anglophobia means that every story must be twisted into a Brit-bashing opportunity"

    It's a perfectly fair article. In summary: AZ have produced an excellent vaccine which we should use, despite multiple failures in trial planning and communications. Sounds right to me, and not really related to Britain in particular - as the article notes, the product is multinational.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    The Exhaustive Ballot IS NOT "Quasi-AV" - it's the, er, Exhaustive Ballot!

    Consider - in AV, you get to rank every candidate in "round 1" and the "method" does the rest, whereas in Tory Leadership Elections, you can only vote for ONE candidate in each round, enabling you to change your preference(s) DURING the election.

    Useful for those who change their mind between rounds - I wonder what percentage of the electorate that is.
    One of the great political slogans was in the 2002 French Presidential election - 'Vote for the crook not the Fascist.'

    Chirac won 82%.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    "The Liberal Democrats have hit back at the party’s former leader in Wales for advising the Tories on how to defeat them.

    Alison Alexander, the party’s Senedd candidate in Montgomeryshire, criticised Lembit Opik, who said the Lib Dems had “become a parody of itself” and suggested that there is “currently no vaccine against stupidity”.

    In a response, Alexander, said she does not “recognise the party he criticises” and claimed people who have “fond memories of the good Liberal” would find his comments very sad.

    Opik used to be the MP for the same constituency, which was one of the safest seats in the country, before he was defeated by Conservative former Assembly Member Glyn Davies at the 2010 General Election."

    https://nation.cymru/news/lib-dems-hit-back-at-former-leader-for-advising-tories-on-how-to-beat-the-party/
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Nigelb said:

    It’s a truism that systems based on large datasets reflect our prejudices, but this is quite something.
    https://twitter.com/DoraVargha/status/1373211762108076034

    As you imply, if I understand correctly how google translate works, then Google shouldn’t be her target. Teach a computer based on the human race and the mirror it holds up won’t always be comfortable to gaze in to.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Andy_JS said:

    "The Liberal Democrats have hit back at the party’s former leader in Wales for advising the Tories on how to defeat them.

    Alison Alexander, the party’s Senedd candidate in Montgomeryshire, criticised Lembit Opik, who said the Lib Dems had “become a parody of itself” and suggested that there is “currently no vaccine against stupidity”.

    In a response, Alexander, said she does not “recognise the party he criticises” and claimed people who have “fond memories of the good Liberal” would find his comments very sad.

    Opik used to be the MP for the same constituency, which was one of the safest seats in the country, before he was defeated by Conservative former Assembly Member Glyn Davies at the 2010 General Election."

    https://nation.cymru/news/lib-dems-hit-back-at-former-leader-for-advising-tories-on-how-to-beat-the-party/

    Opik was always a bit of a joke himself, truthfully, and ironically he's now become a parody of himself as well.

    It's just now he's a joke nobody pays attention to, which is why he's saying things to try and feel important.

    To be honest, I am surprised Alexander rose to his bait. She should just have let him vent in poisonous irrelevance.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Floater said:
    That will kill British people. We need to retaliate so it kills some of them, as well
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    edited March 2021
    Fenman said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyway assuming that the UK and the world does not carry on being overly obsessed with covid -19 beyond a few months my daughter will be reaching university age soon and is interested and good at "behind the scenes " performing arts (ie film/TV /social media (she has 60K followers on Tik Tok apparently!) production and likes theatre as well. Does anyone know the best universities for this kind of thing . Not to academic but more practical in those areas?

    RADA is the global leader.
    thanks Max - is that for behind the camera studies as well as in front of the camera stuff as well? She does perform but her interest is in production more
    It might be worth considering a non-university route for something that vocational: has she considered an apprenticeship or even just applying directly to a production company?
    STRONGLY suggest she considers Falmouth University. It offers what she wants in a very creative community. With sunshine.
    I know a bit about this, as Fox jr2 is a budding actor. He specifically wants acting training, and there are only limited options. Each school has a distinct style and ethos, and these vary tremendously, with some being odd to the point of abusive.

    It is tougher for females as body shaming is rampant, but also the numbers work against them as there are 2 or 3 female candidates for every male one, and drama schools need to balance casts.

    If you have the money both Arts Ed and Oxford School of Drama are very good. RADA prefers older candidates, usually with a first degree, and has a definite "look" as to who fits. LAMBDA has a new regime so Woke that it has purged all its best teachers. Fox Jr2 has a friend doing stage lighting at the Guildhall and loving it.

    Despite its luvvie image, performing arts are brutally unforgiving and anyone doing it needs a thick skin to get over the constant rejection at auditions, and there still is quite a problem with sub-Weinstein behaviour.

    If she is serious, she would do well to get involved with a good Youth Theatre group. Many professional theatres run these, and Fox jr2 cut his teeth at the one at the Curve in Leicester. The National Youth Theatre is good too.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,450

    https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1373576805681143808

    Given the source, more like "Our virulent Anglophobia means that every story must be twisted into a Brit-bashing opportunity"

    It's a perfectly fair article. In summary: AZ have produced an excellent vaccine which we should use, despite multiple failures in trial planning and communications. Sounds right to me, and not really related to Britain in particular - as the article notes, the product is multinational.
    That's the story of modern pharmaceutical R&D.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
    I doubt that but when it comes to religion people certainly play with it.
    The idea of simply responding on the basis of what religion or none that you believe clearly being too straightforward for you?
    I am a cultural Christian. I go a handful of times a year and do christenings, weddings and funerals in church. I am not a regular Sunday worshipper, but few people are, and CofE is a far better way of describing my identity than putting I'm an atheist.

    I think there are millions like me.
    Having an interest in steam engines, test cricket, and real ale is a stronger predictor of being CofE in this country that any belief in God.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Nigelb said:

    It’s a truism that systems based on large datasets reflect our prejudices, but this is quite something.
    https://twitter.com/DoraVargha/status/1373211762108076034

    When she says 'fuck you, Google,' isn't she in herself making assumptions about its gender?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    I threw my census form in the bin. I highly doubt the £1,000 fine threatened by the 'compliance team' will ever materialise.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited March 2021
    When talk turns to PR, the example is always the mad systems of Italy and Israel.

    But NZ and Germany have an identical system, “MMP”, which works well. Ask Merkel if she thinks it has disfavoured the right; or Ardern if she thinks it discriminated against the left.

    Approximately half the seats are local electorates, won via FPTP contests.

    Approximately half are national list seats, allocated according a party’s share of a second, party vote to ensure full and perfect proportionality overall.

    A 5% threshold stops tiny parties from entering Parliament, although this rule is relaxed if you can win a local electorate.

    I wish we would adopt precise same system for the Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish Parliaments, as it would remove the seeming bias towards leading parties we see today as a result of using regional lists and avoiding full proportionality.

    In NZ (with which I am most familiar) it took around four or five electoral cycles to bed in, during which we saw a number of fruitcakes attempt to hold the balance of power.

    Overall, though, it has led to a much healthier mix of representation and opinion.

    I am not yet convinced we should change the system at Westminster.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Leon said:

    Floater said:
    That will kill British people. We need to retaliate so it kills some of them, as well
    Good luck with your war
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 2021
    Leon said:

    Floater said:
    That will kill British people. We need to retaliate so it kills some of them, as well
    If they do it, we should never forget. I, for one, would overnight cease having any interest in protecting their frontier from Russia with British boots on the ground, for example. And they can whistle for the cash we agreed to pay in the withdrawal agreement. At this stage it’s clear that the difference between the trade deal and no deal is minimal anyway, especially post Covid. So f*ck ‘em.

    But to really stick the knife in, we should still help them get vaccinated.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,851
    I put no religion though as a frequent Lib Dem voter perhaps I should have put proportional representation?

    I'm used to getting asked the question a lot as it crops up whenever I apply for a civil service vacancy.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,994
    Dura_Ace said:

    The Conservatives are oddly fetishistic people nowadays, between the flag furore and this, just this week.

    In the past, Conservatives were the pragmatists, chiding others for having fixed ideologies rather than horses for courses.

    How times change.

    I can remember when it was the tory party that led the charge against the National Front politcising the Union Flag... Now they are the spiritual home of the flag shaggers.
    If you can’t beat ‘em, get ‘em to join you..
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
    I doubt that but when it comes to religion people certainly play with it.
    The idea of simply responding on the basis of what religion or none that you believe clearly being too straightforward for you?
    I am a cultural Christian. I go a handful of times a year and do christenings, weddings and funerals in church. I am not a regular Sunday worshipper, but few people are, and CofE is a far better way of describing my identity than putting I'm an atheist.

    I think there are millions like me.
    Having an interest in steam engines, test cricket, and real ale is a stronger predictor of being CofE in this country that any belief in God.
    It depends where you go. Holy Trinity in Leicester gets a youthful congregation of 500 on a Sunday for its Carismatic services, which have been known to boil the blood of traditionalists, but it is CoE.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 2021

    I put no religion though as a frequent Lib Dem voter perhaps I should have put proportional representation?

    I'm used to getting asked the question a lot as it crops up whenever I apply for a civil service vacancy.

    I think any LibDem certainly understands the concepts of blind faith and purgatory.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1373576805681143808

    Given the source, more like "Our virulent Anglophobia means that every story must be twisted into a Brit-bashing opportunity"

    It's a perfectly fair article. In summary: AZ have produced an excellent vaccine which we should use, despite multiple failures in trial planning and communications. Sounds right to me, and not really related to Britain in particular - as the article notes, the product is multinational.
    lol. It says "Britain has been blinded by Brexit" IN THE HEADLINE. So, no, not really related to Britain in particular?

    Also, the product is only multinational in the sense of people from many countries worked on it, as you would expect at a world class university like Oxford

    The fact is its development was done in Britain, at a British university, and financed by British money from British taxpayers through the British government, who helped with the R&D, manufacturing, everything. So, yeah, it is very much British, more than it is anything else, and the Oirish can do one. What is wrong with them. The Famine was, like 3000 years ago and they still can't cope with us.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 2021
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    The “post-Christian era” in the UK will be cemented by data emerging from Sunday’s census which is expected to show further generational disengagement from organised religion, according to a leading academic.

    The once-a-decade snapshot of the country has included a voluntary question about religion since 2001. In 2011, returns across England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland showed 59.3% ticking Christianity, a fall from 71.6% a decade earlier.

    Abby Day, professor of race, faith and culture at Goldsmiths, University of London, expects this year’s census to show a further erosion in Christian identity, mainly because postwar generations regard the church as irrelevant and immoral.

    Day predicted the proportion of people ticking Christianity “could drop below 50%”. Peter Brierley, an expert on religion statistics, said he predicted 48% or 49% identifying as Christian, but David Voas, head of the social sciences department at University College London, said he would be surprised if the figure fell below 50%

    I would expect Christian to still be ahead of No religion though.

    The question did not ask 'are you religious?' when I did the census yesterday, it asked 'what is your religion?' ie No religion, Christian (no denomination breakdown so Catholics and evangelicals will boost the figure compared to what the C of E would have got), Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, any other religion?
    I know people who aren't Christians, but write down Christian on the form because they can't stand organisations like the National Secular Society.
    I put CofE because I go a couple of times a year (harvest, Easter and Christmas) and I wouldn't want to give succour to anti-disestabishmentarians, ultra-liberal progressives and republicans, which it otherwise most certainly would and potentially influence public policy accordingly.
    You've just convinced me not to put CofE.
    I doubt that but when it comes to religion people certainly play with it.
    The idea of simply responding on the basis of what religion or none that you believe clearly being too straightforward for you?
    I am a cultural Christian. I go a handful of times a year and do christenings, weddings and funerals in church. I am not a regular Sunday worshipper, but few people are, and CofE is a far better way of describing my identity than putting I'm an atheist.

    I think there are millions like me.
    Having an interest in steam engines, test cricket, and real ale is a stronger predictor of being CofE in this country that any belief in God.
    It depends where you go. Holy Trinity in Leicester gets a youthful congregation of 500 on a Sunday for its Carismatic services, which have been known to boil the blood of traditionalists, but it is CoE.
    Even when the cricket’s on? Sacrilege.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Leon said:

    Floater said:
    That will kill British people. We need to retaliate so it kills some of them, as well
    If they do it, we should never forget. I, for one, would overnight cease having any interest in protecting their frontier from Russia with British boots on the ground, for example. And they can whistle for the cash we agreed to pay in the withdrawal agreement. At this stage it’s clear that the difference between the trade deal and no deal is minimal anyway, especially post Covid. So f*ck ‘em.

    But to really stick the knife in, we should still help them get vaccinated.
    Toys Pram.

    Boris has already written his Peace in our times note along with his Fuck em one.
This discussion has been closed.