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New polling has voters narrowly opposed to the Clapham vigil but significantly more supporting than

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited March 15 in General
New polling has voters narrowly opposed to the Clapham vigil but significantly more supporting than other protests – politicalbetting.com

The fact they are split on the Sarah Everard vigil shows many Britons are making an exception for the event. The majority of Britons (59%) say protests, vigils and marches should not be allowed during the pandemichttps://t.co/8JOUtSZyOf pic.twitter.com/3zYzd8Kg9c

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,943
    edited March 15
    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,695
    LibDems evenly split. Sid Bonkers against, Doris Bonkers for....
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,556
    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Not yet
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 10,316
    The LD figures are interesting. Was expecting them to be closer to Labour.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086
    Tbh, it feels like partisan politics, if Boris had come out in favour of the protests strongly that Tory column would look a lot more like the Labour one.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,556
    Andy_JS said:

    The LD figures are interesting. Was expecting them to be closer to Labour.

    My guess is that the LD sub sample would be very small and therefore much more open to margin of error.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,381
    If Cressida commissioned these polls it was an excellent investment for her. It has probably earned her another year's very generous salary. It was all looking a bit ominous until Ed Davey stuck his oar in but the Lib Dems are fairly reliable contraindicators these days.

    But surely her contract will not be renewed next year, surely?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 13,428
    FPT:

    This blood cot thing is an interesting variant of the Trolley Problem.

    The runaway trolley is not heading towards anyone, and yet half the countries in the EU have switched the points so that it collides with a few thousand.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,301
    Given the general backing for incredibly strict lockdown measures these figures are no real surprise, are they? The issue is surely more about how the vigil was policed once it did go ahead. Did YouGov ask about that?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,943

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Not yet
    It is, however, young metro lefty Britain with a few cranks and fanatics of all colours thrown in.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,914
    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, it feels like partisan politics, if Boris had come out in favour of the protests strongly that Tory column would look a lot more like the Labour one.

    Like I said, the smart politicians were waiting for this polling. Boris is a smart politician.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,381
    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,695
    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Within a decade, no-one will remember what Twitter was.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 18
    FPT

    What I don't understand is why authorities like the police continue to act towards Covid risk on the same basis they did a year ago, apparently ignoring all of the evidence that has built up since then on how it spreads and what events are most risky.

    We know it does well from prolonged exposure in enclosed indoor spaces with limited ventilation, and that there are very few if any examples of superspreading events taking place outside. We also know it largely spreads through airborne droplets and possibly aerosols. Yet police around the country continue zealously to challenge people driving in their own cars for breezy walks on the beach or in the Derbyshire Dales, or protestors staging vigils on a common, and everywhere you go there's this great focus on hand sanitising.

    I spent half an hour on the tube this morning going to an appointment. Far far higher chance of copping a bit of Covid-19 from that journey than any number of outdoor vigils or trips to beauty spots for a stroll.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086
    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    Oh the 5'2" woman was saying mean things to them. Boo fucking hoo.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,914

    Given the general backing for incredibly strict lockdown measures these figures are no real surprise, are they? The issue is surely more about how the vigil was policed once it did go ahead. Did YouGov ask about that?

    What would the question be? Do you support the measures taken by the police?

    For sure, a decent chunk of those who don't approve of vigils - or this one in particular - would have said "no" as is their prerogative. In the real world, the police have to decide whether they want to enforce the law or not.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,381

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Within a decade, no-one will remember what Twitter was.
    Oh I am sure that I will. Indeed going by my previous record that will be about the point I decide I should maybe join.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,458
    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,244
    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,914
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Lots of crime wouldn't happen if the police just didn't bother.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 27,595
    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    1) no certainty that the person in the video was the one arrested and then interviewed. Surprised that you should employ it as though it was definitely her. And even if it was, she was arguing with a policeman; and
    2) handling such situations including policing the vigil is what the police are paid to do.

    They need guidance from their commanders, the most senior of whom is one Cressida Dick. And on up from her is the HS.
  • eekeek Posts: 11,669
    MaxPB said:

    Separately - data shows that recipients of the AZ vaccine have a lower rate of blood clots than unvaccinated people. Thailand has resumed it's AZ programme probably after having a look at the data.

    The damage that Europe is doing to the AZ vaccine is unacceptable. All becuase a few EU politicians have tried to shift the blame for their own failure to procure enough vaccines onto AZ.

    You know that they EU still have licensed AZs second factory (the Belgian) one
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112
    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    A significant misunderstanding of Twitter.

    The nature of Twitter is that depending on who you follow, it's easy to get suckered into the opinion that every thinks like you. It's just how it works. This doesn't just apply to the "left".

    There's significant bubbles of "the right", "anti-vax", etc. Why do you think the likes of Farage and Trump use (used) Twitter?

    Pretending Twitter = one view point is just lazy.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 427
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    Oh the 5'2" woman was saying mean things to them. Boo fucking hoo.
    When they didn't need to be 18" away from her in the first place.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,943
    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    I think it's amazingly useful for lazy journalists, which is why it will endure. Much quicker than talking to people and ferreting out stories the old fashioned way.

    (And also, in fairness, easier on the liver if not the eyes).
  • eekeek Posts: 11,669

    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    A significant misunderstanding of Twitter.

    The nature of Twitter is that depending on who you follow, it's easy to get suckered into the opinion that every thinks like you. It's just how it works. This doesn't just apply to the "left".

    There's significant bubbles of "the right", "anti-vax", etc. Why do you think the likes of Farage and Trump use (used) Twitter?

    Pretending Twitter = one view point is just lazy.
    You can replace Twitter with all social media.

    Social Media's greatest issue is that it creates echo chambers..
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,381
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Oh I agree. If the local police were for having a socially distanced, policed vigil who the hell decided that force and arrests were the better option? That's the person who should be spending more time with their pension and it must have been someone pretty senior.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,458
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    Oh the 5'2" woman was saying mean things to them. Boo fucking hoo.
    Charles Manson was 5'2". Just saying!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199
    edited March 15
    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    The big problem with twitter and especially the media preoccupation with what is said on it, is that is a vortex, somebody they know says something, then the cycle of quoting / retweeting starts....it doesn't matter if it was true or not, once it starts it whips up into a louder and louder screech.

    Its a small group of people who have the reach causes this amplification, which makes it appear like the whole world has this same opinion....and if something turns out to be untrue or not as it initially seems, too late, all these people have been stucked into thr vortex.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112

    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    The big problem with twitter and especially the media preoccupation with what is said on it, is that is a vortex, somebody they know says something, then the cycle of quoting / retweeting starts....it doesn't matter if it was true or not, once it starts it whips up into a louder and louder screech.

    Its a small group of people who have the reach causes this amplification, which makes it appear like the whole world has this same opinion....and if something turns out to be untrue or not as it initially seems, too late, all these people have been stucked into thr vortex.
    I think Twitter would work better without "retweeting". I don't think it adds anything useful.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199
    Brom said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    Oh the 5'2" woman was saying mean things to them. Boo fucking hoo.
    Charles Manson was 5'2". Just saying!
    Tom Cruise wishes he was as tall as 5'2"....
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 3,137

    Given the general backing for incredibly strict lockdown measures these figures are no real surprise, are they? The issue is surely more about how the vigil was policed once it did go ahead. Did YouGov ask about that?

    I am a bit surprised and disappointed that Dick has such strong backing from the public. It suggests that they saw nothing wrong with the police response to the protest.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,458

    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    A significant misunderstanding of Twitter.

    The nature of Twitter is that depending on who you follow, it's easy to get suckered into the opinion that every thinks like you. It's just how it works. This doesn't just apply to the "left".

    There's significant bubbles of "the right", "anti-vax", etc. Why do you think the likes of Farage and Trump use (used) Twitter?

    Pretending Twitter = one view point is just lazy.
    I think there's been enough studies showing the owner and members of twitter are on the whole left leaning. I guess Parler wouldn't have happened if many of those on the right felt comfortable.

    I believe it's a cesspit and don't follow anyone but clearly when looking at what is trending and the follower count of politicians and journalists it leans quite left. Unless of course you think they're all Russian bots...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    Oh the 5'2" woman was saying mean things to them. Boo fucking hoo.
    Well said.

    If you're going to break up a vigil in a noisy environment then raised voices rather go with the territory.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,381
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    1) no certainty that the person in the video was the one arrested and then interviewed. Surprised that you should employ it as though it was definitely her. And even if it was, she was arguing with a policeman; and
    2) handling such situations including policing the vigil is what the police are paid to do.

    They need guidance from their commanders, the most senior of whom is one Cressida Dick. And on up from her is the HS.
    1) I didn't say it was her. But there were 4 arrests, I think, one of whom happened to be a rather striking red head.

    2) Agreed. As I have said elsewhere it is the person who overruled the local commander who should be facing questions.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,448

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Within a decade, no-one will remember what Twitter was.
    Well, I share your hope - but what will happen to bring this about?
    Most social media seems poisonous, but Twitter is uniquely so.
    I will make an exception to the above for pb.com, which, by accident or design, seems to engender robust debate rather than echo-chambering, most of the time.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426
    tlg86 said:

    Given the general backing for incredibly strict lockdown measures these figures are no real surprise, are they? The issue is surely more about how the vigil was policed once it did go ahead. Did YouGov ask about that?

    What would the question be? Do you support the measures taken by the police?

    For sure, a decent chunk of those who don't approve of vigils - or this one in particular - would have said "no" as is their prerogative. In the real world, the police have to decide whether they want to enforce the law or not.
    No they do not.

    In the real world the Police have to decide HOW they want to enforce the law.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,943

    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    A significant misunderstanding of Twitter.

    The nature of Twitter is that depending on who you follow, it's easy to get suckered into the opinion that every thinks like you. It's just how it works. This doesn't just apply to the "left".

    There's significant bubbles of "the right", "anti-vax", etc. Why do you think the likes of Farage and Trump use (used) Twitter?

    Pretending Twitter = one view point is just lazy.
    Nobody said it's just one viewpoint. But the balance of viewpoints it has is often heavily unrepresentative of the country as a whole, and in more and more obvious ways.

    Which is why we left the EU, and don't have a PM Corbyn, and why Dick will probably survive.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199
    edited March 15

    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    The big problem with twitter and especially the media preoccupation with what is said on it, is that is a vortex, somebody they know says something, then the cycle of quoting / retweeting starts....it doesn't matter if it was true or not, once it starts it whips up into a louder and louder screech.

    Its a small group of people who have the reach causes this amplification, which makes it appear like the whole world has this same opinion....and if something turns out to be untrue or not as it initially seems, too late, all these people have been stucked into thr vortex.
    I think Twitter would work better without "retweeting". I don't think it adds anything useful.
    I listened to an interesting podcast the other day about this about the infinite scroll and the like / retweet options...how it totally changed how people interact with social media, for the better of the companies not us.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,244
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Lots of crime wouldn't happen if the police just didn't bother.
    On this issue, you seem completely to miss the point.
    it was within police discretion to allow the original organised vigil to go ahead. Had it done so, it is likely there would have been minimal risk of resulting infections, and there would have been no crime.
  • alednamalednam Posts: 122

    Given the general backing for incredibly strict lockdown measures these figures are no real surprise, are they? The issue is surely more about how the vigil was policed once it did go ahead. Did YouGov ask about that?

    I am a bit surprised and disappointed that Dick has such strong backing from the public. It suggests that they saw nothing wrong with the police response to the protest.
    Perhaps Cressida is strongly backed because she is seen by many as so much better than alternatives, having it in mind that the Home Secretary would determine who followed C.D. if she did (/was force to) resign.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 27,595
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    1) no certainty that the person in the video was the one arrested and then interviewed. Surprised that you should employ it as though it was definitely her. And even if it was, she was arguing with a policeman; and
    2) handling such situations including policing the vigil is what the police are paid to do.

    They need guidance from their commanders, the most senior of whom is one Cressida Dick. And on up from her is the HS.
    1) I didn't say it was her. But there were 4 arrests, I think, one of whom happened to be a rather striking red head.

    2) Agreed. As I have said elsewhere it is the person who overruled the local commander who should be facing questions.
    Also agree.

    And of course if you are protesting because you are upset about the fact that a woman who was walking home across Clapham Common was abducted and killed (it appears by a serving police officer) you are going to be, in the words of Mel Smith's companion, livid.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 6,488

    Why do you think the likes of Farage and Trump use (used) Twitter?

    For every fiery trot woman there is a fat middle aged white man with lots of fleg emojis in his twitter name.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 12,663

    I think Twitter would work better without "retweeting". I don't think it adds anything useful.

    It explicitly breaks the 'bubble'

    If there were no retweets, you would never see an opinion voiced by someone you don't follow.

    Retweets means you see things posted by the people followed by the people you follow instead.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 6,850
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    It looks to me as though the Met have been ruthlessly consistent over the last few months. As you say, the politicians are responsible for the law.
    BLM? Extinction Rebellion? I really don't agree.
    Before the law change. As was pointed out earlier, those women ought to count themselves grateful for not getting a £10,000 fine. The police have been handing those out like confetti for months.
    Who exactly was the organiser? That's your £10,000.
    The "organisers" cancelled it 24 hours previously.
    https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2021/03/13/sarah-everard-vigil-cancelled/

    So you need the further organisers.

    The one to watch is I think Wednesday's, which is being driven by groups such as Counterfire, as was endorsed by the 'victim' who was photographed, and who imo in this interview seems surprisingly unshocked whilst discussing strategy.

    https://twitter.com/counterfireorg/status/1370899755786702849
    To be fair, she sounds like a nightmare. She kicked off her answers with "cis" and "trans" and then started talking about global protests 'everywhere', whilst her mates cheered her on in the background.

    Worth nothing that "Counterfire is a socialist organisation committed to building the biggest possible movements against a system that is creating more and more crisis and misery", so it's not hard to see their agenda.
    Counterfire was formed by a split from the SWP. Lindsey German (lead the Stop the War Coalition) and John Rees (similar for the Socialist Alliance) were forced out/walked from their SWP Central Committee positions when their "movements" strategy didn't result in success for the SWP.

    Given the SWP's history with sexual assault allegations they're a bit of an odd pick for leading this struggle for justice - but you can't blame people for not knowing all this history.
    The factions and splinter groups of both hard left and right are, I think, of interest only to themselves.
    I think that depends whether or not such groups are creating false narratives which impact wider society, or not. :smile:
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,301
    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,914
    I'll tell you what is interesting. The discussion on PB is not all that different to the conversation on Guido:

    https://order-order.com/2021/03/15/yougov-public-think-clapham-vigil-should-not-have-gone-ahead/#comments

    Albeit, a lot on there are coming at it from the opposite direction to those on here.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,381
    edited March 15
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    1) no certainty that the person in the video was the one arrested and then interviewed. Surprised that you should employ it as though it was definitely her. And even if it was, she was arguing with a policeman; and
    2) handling such situations including policing the vigil is what the police are paid to do.

    They need guidance from their commanders, the most senior of whom is one Cressida Dick. And on up from her is the HS.
    1) I didn't say it was her. But there were 4 arrests, I think, one of whom happened to be a rather striking red head.

    2) Agreed. As I have said elsewhere it is the person who overruled the local commander who should be facing questions.
    Also agree.

    And of course if you are protesting because you are upset about the fact that a woman who was walking home across Clapham Common was abducted and killed (it appears by a serving police officer) you are going to be, in the words of Mel Smith's companion, livid.
    Absolutely. A woman has been horribly murdered. By a police officer (allegedly). As Dylan once said, "now is the time for your tears."

    Doesn't make the cop's job any more fun though.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,914
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Lots of crime wouldn't happen if the police just didn't bother.
    On this issue, you seem completely to miss the point.
    it was within police discretion to allow the original organised vigil to go ahead. Had it done so, it is likely there would have been minimal risk of resulting infections, and there would have been no crime.
    Oh, that makes it all okay then? No. It would (should) have effectively resulted in the end of lockdown in this respect. You cannot allow certain gatherings to happen but not others. This is a really simple point that you and many on here just do not get.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    Pathetic.

    How about the "emotional value" of someone's home being burgled. Does that get 10 years?
  • alednamalednam Posts: 122
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Indeed, if the organized vigil had been allowed to go ahead, it would have been stewarded. ...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 36,860
    edited March 15
    MaxPB said:

    Separately - data shows that recipients of the AZ vaccine have a lower rate of blood clots than unvaccinated people. Thailand has resumed it's AZ programme probably after having a look at the data.

    The damage that Europe is doing to the AZ vaccine is unacceptable. All becuase a few EU politicians have tried to shift the blame for their own failure to procure enough vaccines onto AZ.

    It's so parochial, while the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine is saving lives all over the world.
    https://twitter.com/malditojimrey/status/1370375173338243079
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112
    I understand the desire for people to get a greater punishment for defacing statues. But 10 years in prison? Seems totally and utterly disproportionate. How about a massive fine and forcing them to clean it off themselves? But 10 years in prison? Christ.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199
    edited March 15

    I understand the desire for people to get a greater punishment for defacing statues. But 10 years in prison? Seems totally and utterly disproportionate. How about a massive fine and forcing them to clean it off themselves? But 10 years in prison? Christ.

    Pissy man got jail time despite handing himself in and admitting he did it (albeit unintentionally).

    I presume 10 years is if you go full Colston statue, rather than write Churchill waz a racist. Still.... compared to what you get for most crimes, seems way out of proportion.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,381

    I understand the desire for people to get a greater punishment for defacing statues. But 10 years in prison? Seems totally and utterly disproportionate. How about a massive fine and forcing them to clean it off themselves? But 10 years in prison? Christ.

    Bonkers. Just bonkers.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,199

    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    A significant misunderstanding of Twitter.

    The nature of Twitter is that depending on who you follow, it's easy to get suckered into the opinion that every thinks like you. It's just how it works. This doesn't just apply to the "left".

    There's significant bubbles of "the right", "anti-vax", etc. Why do you think the likes of Farage and Trump use (used) Twitter?

    Pretending Twitter = one view point is just lazy.
    I think you are missing the point somewhat. Twitter has a substantially younger userbase than the UK population as a whole, and it is disproportionately middle-class. So even if you picked a random set of UK Twitter users to follow it still wouldn't be representative of UK public opinion.

    Thinking Twitter can tell you "what Britain thinks" is a bit like using say the Daily Mail or the Guardian for the same purpose.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,176
    Credit to @Brom for calling the public reaction more accurately than the slam-dunk it might have looked like for the protesters on the night.

    That doesn't change the fact that the police could - and probably should - have taken a less aggressive approach and allowed cold and boredom to disperse the most stubborn participants. The sight of officers holding down a young woman was obviously an unpleasant one in light of who the victim and main suspect of the murder were, and a more intelligent approach might have avoided it.

    The public support for Cressida (a victim of the patriarchy by surname alone!) in the polling is also quite striking. The more the usual ACAB / Defund The Police mob are involved in subsequent events, the less sympathetic the public will be.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,448
    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    A significant misunderstanding of Twitter.

    The nature of Twitter is that depending on who you follow, it's easy to get suckered into the opinion that every thinks like you. It's just how it works. This doesn't just apply to the "left".

    There's significant bubbles of "the right", "anti-vax", etc. Why do you think the likes of Farage and Trump use (used) Twitter?

    Pretending Twitter = one view point is just lazy.
    I think there's been enough studies showing the owner and members of twitter are on the whole left leaning. I guess Parler wouldn't have happened if many of those on the right felt comfortable.

    I believe it's a cesspit and don't follow anyone but clearly when looking at what is trending and the follower count of politicians and journalists it leans quite left. Unless of course you think they're all Russian bots...
    The problem isn't so much that it's left-leaning - although it is - but that it tends to the extremes. That's what is unrepresentative. If you are interested in a viewpoint that there are reasons covid has peaked earlier than is broadly supposed, you are only two clicks away from an echo-chamber that covid doesn't exist, at all. If you think the cost of lockdown might not be worth the benefit, you are only two clicks away from an anti-vax echo chamber (I don't even see how these two viewpoints are linked, but in the twitter AI they are). If you think the government has handled the pandemic less well than it might have done, you are only two clicks from a view that it's a deliberate attempt to kill people off.
    Twitter polarises to ridiculous extremes. In the real world, there is room for nuance, for striking a balance, for friendly disagreement. It is possible to assume good intentions on the part of those you disagree with. In the twittersphere we are reduced to gangs of lunatic extremists goading each other into weirder and weirder views and assuming the worst intentions of the opposition gang of lunatics.

    It's brilliant for factual reporting of things which otherwise would not be covered by the media. And it's brilliant for people who like to scream obscenities at strangers and celebrities. Other than that, it's awful.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112
    glw said:

    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    A significant misunderstanding of Twitter.

    The nature of Twitter is that depending on who you follow, it's easy to get suckered into the opinion that every thinks like you. It's just how it works. This doesn't just apply to the "left".

    There's significant bubbles of "the right", "anti-vax", etc. Why do you think the likes of Farage and Trump use (used) Twitter?

    Pretending Twitter = one view point is just lazy.
    I think you are missing the point somewhat. Twitter has a substantially younger userbase than the UK population as a whole, and it is disproportionately middle-class. So even if you picked a random set of UK Twitter users to follow it still wouldn't be representative of UK public opinion.

    Thinking Twitter can tell you "what Britain thinks" is a bit like using say the Daily Mail or the Guardian for the same purpose.
    Do we actually have data on the make-up of Twitter amongst UK punters?

    I'm not doubting your figures, it would just be interesting.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,458

    I understand the desire for people to get a greater punishment for defacing statues. But 10 years in prison? Seems totally and utterly disproportionate. How about a massive fine and forcing them to clean it off themselves? But 10 years in prison? Christ.

    Can't see anyone serving close to the full 10 years, and I'm not sure it's going to act as much of a deterrent when Tarquin is high on ketamin and getting cheered on by his cool mates.

    If they do get the full sentence they'll get pardoned by Richard Burgon's government in 2029 anyway.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,433

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    I do think we have perhaps reached the point at which there needs to be a reappraisal of ALL punishments from top to bottom.

    I do think there should be some punishment for vandalism and criminal damage although 10 years is clearly ludicrous.

    But as a basic principle I would start from the point that no act of vandalism or criminal damage that does not involve endangering someone's life (so excluding things like damaging life saving or medical equipment perhaps) should carry a potential sentence more severe than the lightest sentence for doing actual harm to someone.

    I am sure that there would need to be refinement but it seems to send entirely the wrong signal that damaging property is considered more serious than damaging people.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 3,137
    I found Twitter very useful when finding out what was going on during a Scotland v Sri Lanka ODI that I was attending, but was ultimately drizzled off.

    Far more information put out onto twitter by a journalist at the ground than from the public announcement system.

    Similar use during major rail disruption.

    So, for rapidly sharing information it can be very good, but where there is opinion involved, much less so.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 18
    I deleted Twitter off my iPhone this weekend, prompted by my family asking why I allowed myself to get so worked up by it. I'm going cold turkey now, but I think it's working. 10 minutes on that app is a fast track to exasperation and depression. It's also made me realise a lot of my apparent political fellow travellers are as prone to anti-science and conspiracy theorising as the rest of them.

    It's just a shame I'm now missing what it's really good at: rapid dissemination of news and data, particularly on the science of Covid, before the rest of the media has caught up.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,935

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    Pathetic.

    How about the "emotional value" of someone's home being burgled. Does that get 10 years?
    Maximum sentence discussions are usually pretty futile. FWIW the max for domestic burglary is 14 years. The max for Criminal damage has been 10 years for ages.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,433
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Lots of crime wouldn't happen if the police just didn't bother.
    On this issue, you seem completely to miss the point.
    it was within police discretion to allow the original organised vigil to go ahead. Had it done so, it is likely there would have been minimal risk of resulting infections, and there would have been no crime.
    Oh, that makes it all okay then? No. It would (should) have effectively resulted in the end of lockdown in this respect. You cannot allow certain gatherings to happen but not others. This is a really simple point that you and many on here just do not get.
    Why? We allow all sorts of gatherings in much more confined conditions than existed on Clapham Common on Saturday. Supermarkets, transport, remembrance day gatherings. Why is it that this particular outdoors vigil is not allowed when they are? Have you actually been in a Supermarket recently and seen how crowded it is and how few people are following the basic rules?
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,458
    TimS said:

    I deleted Twitter off my iPhone this weekend, prompted by my family asking why I allowed myself to get so worked up by it. I'm going cold turkey now, but I think it's working. 10 minutes on that app is a fast track to exasperation and depression. It's also made me realise a lot of my apparent political fellow travellers are as prone to anti-science and conspiracy theorising as the rest of them.

    It's just a shame I'm now missing what it's really good at: rapid dissemination of news and data, particularly on the science of Covid, before the rest of the media has caught up.

    A very sensible approach, and I know someone else who did the same and it enhanced their life and made them a lot calmer. As others have said you may miss out on the intial breaking news but the debate and discussion will always be enhanced on other parts of the internet away from the retweets, sycophants and tribes.

    The only must read Twitter these days is Hugo Gye and his (usually) good news vaccine rollout tweets.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,448

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    Pathetic.

    How about the "emotional value" of someone's home being burgled. Does that get 10 years?
    This is symptomatic of something that has been happening for 20 years at least in various guises.

    People behave badly, in a way that is against the law but which for various reasons tends not to be prosecuted. So tougher laws/punishments are brought in. When all we need is the will/resources to enforce the existing laws.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112
    TimS said:

    I deleted Twitter off my iPhone this weekend, prompted by my family asking why I allowed myself to get so worked up by it. I'm going cold turkey now, but I think it's working. 10 minutes on that app is a fast track to exasperation and depression. It's also made me realise a lot of my apparent political fellow travellers are as prone to anti-science and conspiracy theorising as the rest of them.

    It's just a shame I'm now missing what it's really good at: rapid dissemination of news and data, particularly on the science of Covid, before the rest of the media has caught up.

    I never use Twitter anymore either to be honest. It's just really boring. The only tweets I tend to see are on here or are sent to me on WhatsApp.

    Luckily @Scott_xP curates them for me. ;)
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,583
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Lots of crime wouldn't happen if the police just didn't bother.
    On this issue, you seem completely to miss the point.
    it was within police discretion to allow the original organised vigil to go ahead. Had it done so, it is likely there would have been minimal risk of resulting infections, and there would have been no crime.
    I'm not sure. These situations often attract expremeists looking to provoke a fight - as in the video. It's all very well saying the Police are paid to take verbal abuse - they are. However, when those kind of videos are viewed by the general public their sympathies tend to go in one direction.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,914

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Lots of crime wouldn't happen if the police just didn't bother.
    On this issue, you seem completely to miss the point.
    it was within police discretion to allow the original organised vigil to go ahead. Had it done so, it is likely there would have been minimal risk of resulting infections, and there would have been no crime.
    Oh, that makes it all okay then? No. It would (should) have effectively resulted in the end of lockdown in this respect. You cannot allow certain gatherings to happen but not others. This is a really simple point that you and many on here just do not get.
    Why? We allow all sorts of gatherings in much more confined conditions than existed on Clapham Common on Saturday. Supermarkets, transport, remembrance day gatherings. Why is it that this particular outdoors vigil is not allowed when they are? Have you actually been in a Supermarket recently and seen how crowded it is and how few people are following the basic rules?
    FFS. Change the law then. I don't think these laws should ever have come in. But don't take it out on the police who are doing their job.
  • Brom said:

    I understand the desire for people to get a greater punishment for defacing statues. But 10 years in prison? Seems totally and utterly disproportionate. How about a massive fine and forcing them to clean it off themselves? But 10 years in prison? Christ.

    Can't see anyone serving close to the full 10 years, and I'm not sure it's going to act as much of a deterrent when Tarquin is high on ketamin and getting cheered on by his cool mates.

    If they do get the full sentence they'll get pardoned by Richard Burgon's government in 2029 anyway.
    This approach has been developing over quite a few years, and certainly not only under this Government. The idea is you have something very sweeping and draconian, but rely on discretion over the application.

    It's deeply flawed, in my view. You need a maximum, of course, but it should be a sensible pre-estimate of the worst that can happen under that particular law, and it should sit sensibly alongside other offences.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 32,209
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    Oh the 5'2" woman was saying mean things to them. Boo fucking hoo.
    She may have a black belt or be a martial arts expert, or ex SAS.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,176

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    Excellent. Let the woke vandals think twice before defacing our collective cultural inheritance.

    Once the first few sentences get handed down, the supply of 'customers' will rapidly dry up.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,280
    Mr. S, Twitter can be irksome, but it's proven very useful for me for a few bets (Spain 2012, Spain 2016, Sakhir 2020).
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112
    Cookie said:

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    Pathetic.

    How about the "emotional value" of someone's home being burgled. Does that get 10 years?
    This is symptomatic of something that has been happening for 20 years at least in various guises.

    People behave badly, in a way that is against the law but which for various reasons tends not to be prosecuted. So tougher laws/punishments are brought in. When all we need is the will/resources to enforce the existing laws.
    What do people expect? The entire justice system has been cut and let to rot since c. 2010, on all accounts.

    To demonstrate - I'm a keen law student looking for my first legal job, I would be open to working in criminal law, and yet there's very few, if any, job vacancies in that area. You'd think with the huge backlog there would be a big demand for criminal lawyers. Clearly not.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,433
    DavidL said:

    I understand the desire for people to get a greater punishment for defacing statues. But 10 years in prison? Seems totally and utterly disproportionate. How about a massive fine and forcing them to clean it off themselves? But 10 years in prison? Christ.

    Bonkers. Just bonkers.
    Yet another topic that seems to be uniting people across the political spectrum on here. Probably means we will once again turn out to be completely out of touch with the public as a whole :)
  • alednamalednam Posts: 122
    Fishing said:

    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    I think it's amazingly useful for lazy journalists, which is why it will endure. Much quicker than talking to people and ferreting out stories the old fashioned way.

    (And also, in fairness, easier on the liver if not the eyes).
    'Thank God for polling', you say.
    When a majority opinion is reported by pollsters, typically it matches the opinion encouraged by 90% of the UK newspaper market—that is of papers put out by 3 companies (News UK, Daily Mail Group and Reach). I guess one will thank God for pollsters if one wants these companies to determine what people think, and in turn to benefit from the band-wagonning that pollsters' reports encourage.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,935

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    I do think we have perhaps reached the point at which there needs to be a reappraisal of ALL punishments from top to bottom.

    I do think there should be some punishment for vandalism and criminal damage although 10 years is clearly ludicrous.

    But as a basic principle I would start from the point that no act of vandalism or criminal damage that does not involve endangering someone's life (so excluding things like damaging life saving or medical equipment perhaps) should carry a potential sentence more severe than the lightest sentence for doing actual harm to someone.

    I am sure that there would need to be refinement but it seems to send entirely the wrong signal that damaging property is considered more serious than damaging people.
    Punishment is a tough subject. On this analysis a person who with blunt instruments destroyed beyond repair every Rembrandt and Titian in the National Gallery would have a lighter sentence than a drunk bloke in a pub who had a scuffle with a drunk mate and managed to give him a nosebleed and a grazed knee.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 32,209

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    Pathetic.

    How about the "emotional value" of someone's home being burgled. Does that get 10 years?
    most don't even get a police visit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 83,578

    glw said:

    Brom said:

    Fishing said:

    Twitter is not Britain.

    Thank God. (On balance).

    Fantastic. Twitter is less like Britain by the day. Unfortunately too many of the journalists and politicians that occupy the twittersphere haven't quite worked that out yet.

    Thank God for polling which gives them a real slap in the face.
    A significant misunderstanding of Twitter.

    The nature of Twitter is that depending on who you follow, it's easy to get suckered into the opinion that every thinks like you. It's just how it works. This doesn't just apply to the "left".

    There's significant bubbles of "the right", "anti-vax", etc. Why do you think the likes of Farage and Trump use (used) Twitter?

    Pretending Twitter = one view point is just lazy.
    I think you are missing the point somewhat. Twitter has a substantially younger userbase than the UK population as a whole, and it is disproportionately middle-class. So even if you picked a random set of UK Twitter users to follow it still wouldn't be representative of UK public opinion.

    Thinking Twitter can tell you "what Britain thinks" is a bit like using say the Daily Mail or the Guardian for the same purpose.
    Do we actually have data on the make-up of Twitter amongst UK punters?

    I'm not doubting your figures, it would just be interesting.
    In the US certainly 60% of Twitter users are Dems/lean Dem compared only 52% of the US population, while only 35% of Twitter users are Republican/lean Republican, compared to 43% of the US population.

    29% of Twitter users are 18 to 29 and only 8% over 65, 42% of Twitter users are college graduates compared to only 31% of the US population and 41% of Twitter users earn over $75 000 compared to only 32% of the US population.https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2019/04/24/sizing-up-twitter-users/

    In the UK 39% of Twitter users back Labour compared to only 32% of the UK population and only 34% of Twitter users back the Tories compared to 41% of the UK population

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017720008
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,058

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    Excellent. Let the woke vandals think twice before defacing our collective cultural inheritance.

    Once the first few sentences get handed down, the supply of 'customers' will rapidly dry up.
    The ten years in the legislation wont survive contact with the House of Lords.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Lots of crime wouldn't happen if the police just didn't bother.
    On this issue, you seem completely to miss the point.
    it was within police discretion to allow the original organised vigil to go ahead. Had it done so, it is likely there would have been minimal risk of resulting infections, and there would have been no crime.
    Oh, that makes it all okay then? No. It would (should) have effectively resulted in the end of lockdown in this respect. You cannot allow certain gatherings to happen but not others. This is a really simple point that you and many on here just do not get.
    Why? We allow all sorts of gatherings in much more confined conditions than existed on Clapham Common on Saturday. Supermarkets, transport, remembrance day gatherings. Why is it that this particular outdoors vigil is not allowed when they are? Have you actually been in a Supermarket recently and seen how crowded it is and how few people are following the basic rules?
    FFS. Change the law then. I don't think these laws should ever have come in. But don't take it out on the police who are doing their job.
    "Only doing my job" or "I was following orders" isn't always good enough.

    The Police have to determine HOW they do their job, just as others do with their own too.

    You can be good or bad at your job depending upon how you do it.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112
    HYUFD said:

    In the UK 39% of Twitter users back Labour compared to only 32% of the UK population and only 34% of Twitter users back the Tories compared to 41% of the UK population

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017720008

    If those figures are correct, Twitter is actually much more in line with the UK population than I expected.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,176

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    Excellent. Let the woke vandals think twice before defacing our collective cultural inheritance.

    Once the first few sentences get handed down, the supply of 'customers' will rapidly dry up.
    The ten years in the legislation wont survive contact with the House of Lords.
    Time to create some new peers then...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426
    malcolmg said:

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    Pathetic.

    How about the "emotional value" of someone's home being burgled. Does that get 10 years?
    most don't even get a police visit.
    "I'll just give you a case reference number to pass on to your insurance company".

    Only doing their job my arse.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,914

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Lots of crime wouldn't happen if the police just didn't bother.
    On this issue, you seem completely to miss the point.
    it was within police discretion to allow the original organised vigil to go ahead. Had it done so, it is likely there would have been minimal risk of resulting infections, and there would have been no crime.
    Oh, that makes it all okay then? No. It would (should) have effectively resulted in the end of lockdown in this respect. You cannot allow certain gatherings to happen but not others. This is a really simple point that you and many on here just do not get.
    Why? We allow all sorts of gatherings in much more confined conditions than existed on Clapham Common on Saturday. Supermarkets, transport, remembrance day gatherings. Why is it that this particular outdoors vigil is not allowed when they are? Have you actually been in a Supermarket recently and seen how crowded it is and how few people are following the basic rules?
    FFS. Change the law then. I don't think these laws should ever have come in. But don't take it out on the police who are doing their job.
    "Only doing my job" or "I was following orders" isn't always good enough.

    The Police have to determine HOW they do their job, just as others do with their own too.

    You can be good or bad at your job depending upon how you do it.
    If any of the women feel that they were treated badly by the individual officers then they are free to make a complaint. But it will have to be about how they were policed rather than that they were policed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 26,402
    Greens tanking a bit, thank goodness Ecogeddon has been called off.

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1371429627353260032?s=20
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,433
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Lots of crime wouldn't happen if the police just didn't bother.
    On this issue, you seem completely to miss the point.
    it was within police discretion to allow the original organised vigil to go ahead. Had it done so, it is likely there would have been minimal risk of resulting infections, and there would have been no crime.
    Oh, that makes it all okay then? No. It would (should) have effectively resulted in the end of lockdown in this respect. You cannot allow certain gatherings to happen but not others. This is a really simple point that you and many on here just do not get.
    Why? We allow all sorts of gatherings in much more confined conditions than existed on Clapham Common on Saturday. Supermarkets, transport, remembrance day gatherings. Why is it that this particular outdoors vigil is not allowed when they are? Have you actually been in a Supermarket recently and seen how crowded it is and how few people are following the basic rules?
    FFS. Change the law then. I don't think these laws should ever have come in. But don't take it out on the police who are doing their job.
    You are conflating arguments. You keep going on about how the law should be applied equally across the board and when people come up with many examples of how it is not you shoot off on another tangent.

    The issue here is not the law primarily. It is how it is applied by the police at the time in question. There was no need for them to act in the way they did both before hand where they decided to simply ban any gathering, then ignored the gathering through the day including the visit by a member of the royal family and then managed to get into a situation where they are caught manhandling women at a vigil about violence towards women. There is simply no way the police come out of that looking good.

    What they could have done is negotiated with the organisers and had a small symbolic vigil with a very limited number of people at Clapham Common and with the organisers asking that no one else attend. That would have been within the scope of the law and the court ruling. But instead they decided to go all heavy handed because they could. Utter stupidity.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,176

    Greens tanking a bit, thank goodness Ecogeddon has been called off.

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1371429627353260032?s=20

    Vote Green, go Blue... :smile:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    Oh the 5'2" woman was saying mean things to them. Boo fucking hoo.
    She may have a black belt or be a martial arts expert, or ex SAS.
    5'5"....

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/mma/ufc-fighter-robbed-polyana-viana-brazil-gunpoint-beats-mugger-man-attack-injuries-fake-gun-a8716971.html
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 27,595
    TimS said:

    I deleted Twitter off my iPhone this weekend, prompted by my family asking why I allowed myself to get so worked up by it. I'm going cold turkey now, but I think it's working. 10 minutes on that app is a fast track to exasperation and depression. It's also made me realise a lot of my apparent political fellow travellers are as prone to anti-science and conspiracy theorising as the rest of them.

    It's just a shame I'm now missing what it's really good at: rapid dissemination of news and data, particularly on the science of Covid, before the rest of the media has caught up.

    And that's what PB is for! People on here a) in any number of disciplines know what they are talking about; and b) filter the twittersphere or miss it out altogether.

    Plus panic ye not - we still have plenty of tweets posted here where b) above applies.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess would also be that if the video linked to on the last thread gains currency sympathy for these women is going to fall off a cliff.

    I don't think that what the police did here was right or necessary but boy, do they have a lot to put up with.

    To mind mind the point is rather would any of that have happened had the organised vigil been allowed to go ahead ?
    I suspect not.
    Lots of crime wouldn't happen if the police just didn't bother.
    On this issue, you seem completely to miss the point.
    it was within police discretion to allow the original organised vigil to go ahead. Had it done so, it is likely there would have been minimal risk of resulting infections, and there would have been no crime.
    Oh, that makes it all okay then? No. It would (should) have effectively resulted in the end of lockdown in this respect. You cannot allow certain gatherings to happen but not others. This is a really simple point that you and many on here just do not get.
    Why? We allow all sorts of gatherings in much more confined conditions than existed on Clapham Common on Saturday. Supermarkets, transport, remembrance day gatherings. Why is it that this particular outdoors vigil is not allowed when they are? Have you actually been in a Supermarket recently and seen how crowded it is and how few people are following the basic rules?
    FFS. Change the law then. I don't think these laws should ever have come in. But don't take it out on the police who are doing their job.
    "Only doing my job" or "I was following orders" isn't always good enough.

    The Police have to determine HOW they do their job, just as others do with their own too.

    You can be good or bad at your job depending upon how you do it.
    If any of the women feel that they were treated badly by the individual officers then they are free to make a complaint. But it will have to be about how they were policed rather than that they were policed.
    Well yes isn't that exactly what has been complained about from Saturday night onwards? How it was dealt with?

    How many homes that are burgled don't even get visited by the cops, but some grieving women are peacefully holding an outdoor vigil? Send in the goonsquad.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,199
    edited March 15

    Do we actually have data on the make-up of Twitter amongst UK punters?

    I'm not doubting your figures, it would just be interesting.

    This isn't Twitter specific, but it's from Ofcom and covers social media, so it's a good source.

    There is a good chart on page 10 of the main report showing what is normally called digital exclusion. As a resulf of that, the young and higher social classes are overrepresented on social media and the elderly and lower social classes underrepresented. This is sort of obvious when you think about access to devices and services incurring a cost. So any kind of opinion from social media needs to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/research-and-data/media-literacy-research/adults/adults-media-use-and-attitudes
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086

    HYUFD said:

    In the UK 39% of Twitter users back Labour compared to only 32% of the UK population and only 34% of Twitter users back the Tories compared to 41% of the UK population

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053168017720008

    If those figures are correct, Twitter is actually much more in line with the UK population than I expected.
    I think they should ask that question based on how active a person is. I'd imagine that the more active users are leftists.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 9,242

    Cookie said:

    Can you get more woke than locking someone up for 10 years for hurting people's feelings?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1371409714861510660

    Pathetic.

    How about the "emotional value" of someone's home being burgled. Does that get 10 years?
    This is symptomatic of something that has been happening for 20 years at least in various guises.

    People behave badly, in a way that is against the law but which for various reasons tends not to be prosecuted. So tougher laws/punishments are brought in. When all we need is the will/resources to enforce the existing laws.
    What do people expect? The entire justice system has been cut and let to rot since c. 2010, on all accounts.

    To demonstrate - I'm a keen law student looking for my first legal job, I would be open to working in criminal law, and yet there's very few, if any, job vacancies in that area. You'd think with the huge backlog there would be a big demand for criminal lawyers. Clearly not.
    Historians looking back at our society in a 100 years time will be entirely baffled why our solution to everything is "more laws, implemented quickly without much discussion or thought" at the same time as we want to cut costs in policing, prisons and the court system. How does anyone ever expect this combination will work?
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