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The pressure mounts on Johnson ahead of Monday’s “COVID roadmap” statement – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited February 18 in General
imageThe pressure mounts on Johnson ahead of Monday’s “COVID roadmap” statement – politicalbetting.com

With COVID rates halving every two weeks, and cases looking to drop below 1,000 a day by the second week of April the Mail continues its pressure on the PM over his plans to ease the lockdown.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,497
    Test
  • TimTTimT Posts: 2,630
    First not a test.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,201
    Do I get the sense that OGH has become a bit less pro-lockdown recently?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited February 18
    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 5,924
    edited February 18
    5th.

    Up early this morning watching a fascinating documentary about the RAF Strikes in 1946 protesting against conscripts and volunteers not being demobbed. Involved 50k airmen. One organiser sentenced to 10 years, before a campaign overturned it.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force_mutiny

    A big contrast to the USA's Operation Magic Carpet.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    edited February 18
    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,864

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one. I don't think most of us will be expecting everything to get back to normal by May; OTOH if the bars for unlocking are set so high that we find ourselves in July and little has re-opened apart from schools and golf courses then people will give up.

    Certainly once my aged relatives have had their second jabs in April/May then I'm not waiting an eternity to visit them. None of us is getting any younger... If the Government wants us to sit on our arses for another six months or God knows how long then it's going to have to resort to more and more Draconian penalties to try to enforce its will.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one.
    Unfortunately, he doesn’t have too good a record with tightropes:
  • MattWMattW Posts: 5,924
    edited February 18
    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    I can see a certain logic in starting opening schools that early, as we then get some real numbers in the last 2-3 weeks of term and changes can be made in the Easter break if necessary.

    I think the govt strategy of longish deadlines is a good one, firstly because it was what everyone asked for, and it gives us a period of extra reduction in cases, and more vaccinations to move the trend the right way.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,864
    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    Yep. Hasn't the latest research released this morning suggested that the biggest transmitters of Plague are now primary school kids?

    If the Government wants the schools opened then it will either have to yield on getting down to very low case levels, or it will have to lock us up for all of Spring and half the Summer and leave everything but the schools shut. In which case, as I've just written, it will also have to resort to some pretty nasty authoritarianism to try to force the public not to repudiate its rules. I for one am only sitting at home for another six months if they make the risk of getting caught travelling to see relatives so huge that I daren't do it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    I can see a certain logic in starting opening schools that early, as we then get some real numbers in the last 2-3 weeks of term and changes can be made in the Easter break if necessary.
    How many times? It’s four weeks! Lancashire, where @Philip_Thompson lives, breaks up a week earlier than everywhere else.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,864
    ydoethur said:

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one.
    Unfortunately, he doesn’t have too good a record with tightropes:
    I wondered how long it might take someone to come up with that.

    And point of order: a zip wire and a tightrope aren't the same thing. So there.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 15,608

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one. I don't think most of us will be expecting everything to get back to normal by May; OTOH if the bars for unlocking are set so high that we find ourselves in July and little has re-opened apart from schools and golf courses then people will give up.

    Certainly once my aged relatives have had their second jabs in April/May then I'm not waiting an eternity to visit them. None of us is getting any younger... If the Government wants us to sit on our arses for another six months or God knows how long then it's going to have to resort to more and more Draconian penalties to try to enforce its will.
    Yes, I don't mind lockdown myself and could continue till next year if necessary, but I think what you're both saying corresponds to the national mood. What I understand Johnson to be planning is to announce a series of reopening measures dependent on evolution of the disease, mostly without dates but a clear order of priority. That worked pretty well for vaccinations - we all know the sequence that was set up, and there aren't many grumbles saying "No, do me first". (The absence of "rich people find a way round" stories that appeared in the US has helped.)

    If we know that the next step is X (allowing more meeting outside, say) followed by Y (extending bubbles?) and it's hoped that these will be possible in the next few months, most private individuals will feel broadly OK with it, I think. I can't judge the precariousness of businesses, though.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    edited February 18

    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    Yep. Hasn't the latest research released this morning suggested that the biggest transmitters of Plague are now primary school kids?

    If the Government wants the schools opened then it will either have to yield on getting down to very low case levels, or it will have to lock us up for all of Spring and half the Summer and leave everything but the schools shut. In which case, as I've just written, it will also have to resort to some pretty nasty authoritarianism to try to force the public not to repudiate its rules. I for one am only sitting at home for another six months if they make the risk of getting caught travelling to see relatives so huge that I daren't do it.
    There was somebody from Edinburgh yesterday claimed that there had never been a surge after opening schools. Leaving aside the minor detail that that’s demonstrably untrue - cases surged in September - he is somebody who is a big admirer of Toby Young and has repeatedly said lockdowns don’t work at all, so his opinions should be treated with great scepticism. Equally, the mere fact he is being pushed front and centre suggest the government are looking for cover to lift lockdown.

    However, that being said, of course schools were the major driver of inspections infections* during November and early December, because they were the only places that were open where large numbers of people gathered. So it isn’t absolutely clear cut as to how important they are overall.

    The question is, to we try and get children in schools 7-10 days earlier and accept another three months of lockdown, or hang fire for those two weeks and potentially have the worst behind us by mid-April?

    It is a delicate balancing act and bluntly I have no confidence anyone involved has the judgement to get it right.

    *Inspections too, of course, as OFSTED continued to inspect and spread the disease everywhere like the amoral cretins they are, but that was an autocorrect error.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    ydoethur said:

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one.
    Unfortunately, he doesn’t have too good a record with tightropes:
    I wondered how long it might take someone to come up with that.

    And point of order: a zip wire and a tightrope aren't the same thing. So there.
    I just put it up on the fly...
  • tlg86 said:

    Do I get the sense that OGH has become a bit less pro-lockdown recently?

    I said the other day that one of the side effects of getting your first jab is impatience.

    You really do want it to be all over PDQ.

    Personally I don't think OGH was ever pro lockdown, he loves his holidays.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 5,924
    edited February 18
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    I can see a certain logic in starting opening schools that early, as we then get some real numbers in the last 2-3 weeks of term and changes can be made in the Easter break if necessary.
    How many times? It’s four weeks! Lancashire, where @Philip_Thompson lives, breaks up a week earlier than everywhere else.
    Fair enough on the count - I can only count to three at this time as that is my quantum of coffee.

    The strict answer to that would probably be "as many times as necessary".

    However I think the end point is more realistically marked by progress of vaccination.

    Perhaps we are looking at a taper, as has been discussed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    I can see a certain logic in starting opening schools that early, as we then get some real numbers in the last 2-3 weeks of term and changes can be made in the Easter break if necessary.
    How many times? It’s four weeks! Lancashire, where @Philip_Thompson lives, breaks up a week earlier than everywhere else.
    The strict answer to that would be "as many times as necessary".

    However I think the end point is more realistically marked by progress of vaccination.

    Perhaps we are looking at a taper, as has been discussed.
    I meant it’s four weeks to the end of term from March 8th.
  • ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Do I get the sense that OGH has become a bit less pro-lockdown recently?

    I said the other day that one of the side effects of getting your first jab is impatience.

    You really do want it to be all over PDQ.

    Personally I don't think OGH was ever pro lockdown, he loves his holidays.
    I don’t think anybody has ever been pro-lockdown (other than @contrarian of course) but we’ve all been considerably less pro the thought of catching a killer disease with major long term side effects, and lockdown has up to last month been the only way to avoid it.
    Precisely. Lockdowns bought time to get to vaccinations.

    Vaccinations ought to be done for the vulnerable by 30/4, add 3 weeks to become live, that's surely when restrictions should be lifted?

    I can't see any ethical reason to be locking people down three weeks after that date. Bring the vaccination schedule forward a fortnight and it would be possible to unlock before May Day and the local elections.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Do I get the sense that OGH has become a bit less pro-lockdown recently?

    I said the other day that one of the side effects of getting your first jab is impatience.

    You really do want it to be all over PDQ.

    Personally I don't think OGH was ever pro lockdown, he loves his holidays.
    I don’t think anybody has ever been pro-lockdown (other than @contrarian of course) but we’ve all been considerably less pro the thought of catching a killer disease with major long term side effects, and lockdown has up to last month been the only way to avoid it.
    Precisely. Lockdowns bought time to get to vaccinations.

    Vaccinations ought to be done for the vulnerable by 30/4, add 3 weeks to become live, that's surely when restrictions should be lifted?

    I can't see any ethical reason to be locking people down three weeks after that date. Bring the vaccination schedule forward a fortnight and it would be possible to unlock before May Day and the local elections.
    That time is the *latest* date they should be lifted. The issue is that if the government is smart now (you never know your luck) cases might be brought low enough that we don’t have to wait for that.
  • I think a phased lifting of lockdown starting with schools in March and ending by Mayday or mid May would be OK for most people.

    The insanity is surely suggestions that we keep with lockdown until July.
  • The Times is indicating that Gove maybe becoming Home Secretary.

    Boris Johnson has stripped Michael Gove of his role overseeing Britain’s future relationship with Europe and replaced him with Lord Frost, who negotiated last year’s Brexit trade deal.

    In a move that opponents claimed amounted to a “sidelining” of Gove, Downing Street said that Frost would have a seat in cabinet and take responsibility for dealings with Brussels.

    He will take Gove’s job as UK chairman of the withdrawal agreement joint committee. Based in the Cabinet Office, Frost will be responsible for talks on easing trade restrictions between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Downing Street said that he would also be in charge of dealing with post-Brexit trade problems as well as overseeing domestic reform to “maximise” the opportunities of having left the EU.

    Brexit was key to Gove’s brief as Cabinet Office minister. He chaired the Brexit operations committee, which is now likely to fall to Frost, 55. Gove will continue to be in charge of civil service reform and liaising with the devolved administrations. The prime minister has put him in charge of a committee to address NHS waiting times, backlogs in the courts and other effects of the pandemic on public services.

    One source suggested that Johnson’s decision had not thrilled Gove, 53, who this week was made interim chairman of the partnership council due to oversee operation of the Brexit trade deal.

    It has also caused unease among officials in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office because Frost’s new role includes “co-ordinating relations” with the 27 EU states.

    A senior government source said that it made sense to have one minister in charge of all elements of Britain’s relationship with the EU. “I’m sure Michael is not thrilled by this but Lord Frost has the expertise having negotiated the trade deal in the first place and it makes sense for one person to oversee the whole relationship,” they said.

    Another source suggested that the move would be followed by a reshuffle this year in which Gove would move to a department such as the Home Office or the Department of Health: “I think there is an understanding that Michael is going to get another big job.”

    An opponent of Gove added: “Gove would get a grip on the Home Office, which Boris needs. And it’s a department where things go wrong, so it may help ease him out of the cabinet too.”

    Other insiders saw the appointment as a sign of Gove’s waning influence in Downing Street. “Fundamentally his relationship with Boris is still scarred by the 2016 leadership election,” a source said. “The PM just doesn’t trust him.” This is denied by Gove’s allies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-stripped-of-europe-role-as-brexit-negotiator-david-frost-joins-cabinet-mbswt0dql
  • MattWMattW Posts: 5,924
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    I can see a certain logic in starting opening schools that early, as we then get some real numbers in the last 2-3 weeks of term and changes can be made in the Easter break if necessary.
    How many times? It’s four weeks! Lancashire, where @Philip_Thompson lives, breaks up a week earlier than everywhere else.
    The strict answer to that would be "as many times as necessary".

    However I think the end point is more realistically marked by progress of vaccination.

    Perhaps we are looking at a taper, as has been discussed.
    I meant it’s four weeks to the end of term from March 8th.
    Yes - I counted wrong.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    I think a phased lifting of lockdown starting with schools in March and ending by Mayday or mid May would be OK for most people.

    The insanity is surely suggestions that we keep with lockdown until July.

    Well, it certainly would be (and I entirely agree on your last statement) but I am not sure we can have both. That is the core of the problem.

    Equally, it then becomes more or less a social decision - is it more important to have children in schools, or to lift lockdown a bit earlier?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    The Times is indicating that Gove maybe becoming Home Secretary.

    Boris Johnson has stripped Michael Gove of his role overseeing Britain’s future relationship with Europe and replaced him with Lord Frost, who negotiated last year’s Brexit trade deal.

    In a move that opponents claimed amounted to a “sidelining” of Gove, Downing Street said that Frost would have a seat in cabinet and take responsibility for dealings with Brussels.

    He will take Gove’s job as UK chairman of the withdrawal agreement joint committee. Based in the Cabinet Office, Frost will be responsible for talks on easing trade restrictions between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Downing Street said that he would also be in charge of dealing with post-Brexit trade problems as well as overseeing domestic reform to “maximise” the opportunities of having left the EU.

    Brexit was key to Gove’s brief as Cabinet Office minister. He chaired the Brexit operations committee, which is now likely to fall to Frost, 55. Gove will continue to be in charge of civil service reform and liaising with the devolved administrations. The prime minister has put him in charge of a committee to address NHS waiting times, backlogs in the courts and other effects of the pandemic on public services.

    One source suggested that Johnson’s decision had not thrilled Gove, 53, who this week was made interim chairman of the partnership council due to oversee operation of the Brexit trade deal.

    It has also caused unease among officials in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office because Frost’s new role includes “co-ordinating relations” with the 27 EU states.

    A senior government source said that it made sense to have one minister in charge of all elements of Britain’s relationship with the EU. “I’m sure Michael is not thrilled by this but Lord Frost has the expertise having negotiated the trade deal in the first place and it makes sense for one person to oversee the whole relationship,” they said.

    Another source suggested that the move would be followed by a reshuffle this year in which Gove would move to a department such as the Home Office or the Department of Health: “I think there is an understanding that Michael is going to get another big job.”

    An opponent of Gove added: “Gove would get a grip on the Home Office, which Boris needs. And it’s a department where things go wrong, so it may help ease him out of the cabinet too.”

    Other insiders saw the appointment as a sign of Gove’s waning influence in Downing Street. “Fundamentally his relationship with Boris is still scarred by the 2016 leadership election,” a source said. “The PM just doesn’t trust him.” This is denied by Gove’s allies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-stripped-of-europe-role-as-brexit-negotiator-david-frost-joins-cabinet-mbswt0dql

    In defence of Gove (not something I say often) I think he would actually be quite a good fit at the Home Office. He is both hard working and determined. Once he has set his mind to something, he carries it through regardless of the consequences, and goodness knows the Home Office could do with some of that.

    The trick always was to make sure he set his mind to the right thing, which is where he went tragically wrong at education.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,769

    I think a phased lifting of lockdown starting with schools in March and ending by Mayday or mid May would be OK for most people.

    The insanity is surely suggestions that we keep with lockdown until July.

    I can't imagine there is a single politician with hope of election promoting lockdown until July.

    Not one. Regardless of SAGE or any other set of initials.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,769
    ydoethur said:

    The Times is indicating that Gove maybe becoming Home Secretary.

    Boris Johnson has stripped Michael Gove of his role overseeing Britain’s future relationship with Europe and replaced him with Lord Frost, who negotiated last year’s Brexit trade deal.

    In a move that opponents claimed amounted to a “sidelining” of Gove, Downing Street said that Frost would have a seat in cabinet and take responsibility for dealings with Brussels.

    He will take Gove’s job as UK chairman of the withdrawal agreement joint committee. Based in the Cabinet Office, Frost will be responsible for talks on easing trade restrictions between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Downing Street said that he would also be in charge of dealing with post-Brexit trade problems as well as overseeing domestic reform to “maximise” the opportunities of having left the EU.

    Brexit was key to Gove’s brief as Cabinet Office minister. He chaired the Brexit operations committee, which is now likely to fall to Frost, 55. Gove will continue to be in charge of civil service reform and liaising with the devolved administrations. The prime minister has put him in charge of a committee to address NHS waiting times, backlogs in the courts and other effects of the pandemic on public services.

    One source suggested that Johnson’s decision had not thrilled Gove, 53, who this week was made interim chairman of the partnership council due to oversee operation of the Brexit trade deal.

    It has also caused unease among officials in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office because Frost’s new role includes “co-ordinating relations” with the 27 EU states.

    A senior government source said that it made sense to have one minister in charge of all elements of Britain’s relationship with the EU. “I’m sure Michael is not thrilled by this but Lord Frost has the expertise having negotiated the trade deal in the first place and it makes sense for one person to oversee the whole relationship,” they said.

    Another source suggested that the move would be followed by a reshuffle this year in which Gove would move to a department such as the Home Office or the Department of Health: “I think there is an understanding that Michael is going to get another big job.”

    An opponent of Gove added: “Gove would get a grip on the Home Office, which Boris needs. And it’s a department where things go wrong, so it may help ease him out of the cabinet too.”

    Other insiders saw the appointment as a sign of Gove’s waning influence in Downing Street. “Fundamentally his relationship with Boris is still scarred by the 2016 leadership election,” a source said. “The PM just doesn’t trust him.” This is denied by Gove’s allies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-stripped-of-europe-role-as-brexit-negotiator-david-frost-joins-cabinet-mbswt0dql

    In defence of Gove (not something I say often) I think he would actually be quite a good fit at the Home Office. He is both hard working and determined. Once he has set his mind to something, he carries it through regardless of the consequences, and goodness knows the Home Office could do with some of that.

    The trick always was to make sure he set his mind to the right thing, which is where he went tragically wrong at education.
    ...and with his (or at least, his wife's) ambition to be PM.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999

    I think a phased lifting of lockdown starting with schools in March and ending by Mayday or mid May would be OK for most people.

    The insanity is surely suggestions that we keep with lockdown until July.

    I can't imagine there is a single politician with hope of election promoting lockdown until July.

    Not one. Regardless of SAGE or any other set of initials.
    Hope of election in three years time?

    Why wouldn't they "follow the science" now?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999
    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,170
    I read somehwere yesterday that Starmer is planning to pitch himself as the new Atlee - as was suggested by some on here several weeks ago. He will need more than just an image of a ghost of the past. Above all he needs some ideas and policies to catch the mood. We'll see.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 8,915
    edited February 18
    With regards to pubs, govt support and outdoor opening not being viable. When the time comes and we are ready for outdoor opening, why not continue govt support as is, but also allow outdoor opening without impacting that support? Sure there will be a few winners, but not enough to compensate for their losses the last year, and outdoor socialising places will be important for society as a whole.
  • You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,160

    ydoethur said:

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one.
    Unfortunately, he doesn’t have too good a record with tightropes:
    I wondered how long it might take someone to come up with that.

    And point of order: a zip wire and a tightrope aren't the same thing. So there.
    Indeed, a tightrope would have required action, decisiveness, balance and skill. On a zip wire he was just a dead weight.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,160
    edited February 18

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one. I don't think most of us will be expecting everything to get back to normal by May; OTOH if the bars for unlocking are set so high that we find ourselves in July and little has re-opened apart from schools and golf courses then people will give up.

    Certainly once my aged relatives have had their second jabs in April/May then I'm not waiting an eternity to visit them. None of us is getting any younger... If the Government wants us to sit on our arses for another six months or God knows how long then it's going to have to resort to more and more Draconian penalties to try to enforce its will.
    Yes, I don't mind lockdown myself and could continue till next year if necessary, but I think what you're both saying corresponds to the national mood. What I understand Johnson to be planning is to announce a series of reopening measures dependent on evolution of the disease, mostly without dates but a clear order of priority. That worked pretty well for vaccinations - we all know the sequence that was set up, and there aren't many grumbles saying "No, do me first". (The absence of "rich people find a way round" stories that appeared in the US has helped.)

    If we know that the next step is X (allowing more meeting outside, say) followed by Y (extending bubbles?) and it's hoped that these will be possible in the next few months, most private individuals will feel broadly OK with it, I think. I can't judge the precariousness of businesses, though.
    Lockdown nostalgia! This time next year, some will be looking back fondly at those long days when they had nothing to do. The quiet, lack of traffic and aircraft noise, the wildlife, the long walks.
  • TOPPING said:

    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.

    It took several months for the message to get across that covid 19 wasnt like the flu.

    Sadly it may take another few months for the message to get across that post vaccination covid 19 is a bit like the flu or even a cold if the data on serious illness and death holds up.
  • felix said:

    I read somehwere yesterday that Starmer is planning to pitch himself as the new Atlee - as was suggested by some on here several weeks ago. He will need more than just an image of a ghost of the past. Above all he needs some ideas and policies to catch the mood. We'll see.

    Good luck with that. Starmer and Attlee are not two individuals that I necessarily associate together. Attlee led a great reforming government (I say this as a Conservative), Starmer is, well he couldn't reform a lemonade!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    The flaw there is it seems there is enormous pressure within the government, especially at the DfE, to operate all schools at full capacity* simultaneously from March 8th, regardless of the situation or the effect.

    Why is uncertain. It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children and want to quickly farm them back out to teachers.

    Sadly, I find this all too plausible.

    *Worded carefully, because they have never actually closed.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,420

    ydoethur said:

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one.
    Unfortunately, he doesn’t have too good a record with tightropes:
    I wondered how long it might take someone to come up with that.

    And point of order: a zip wire and a tightrope aren't the same thing. So there.
    I wondered how long it would be before someone made the point in your second paragraph.

    P.S. it wasn't long enough.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    edited February 18

    felix said:

    I read somehwere yesterday that Starmer is planning to pitch himself as the new Atlee - as was suggested by some on here several weeks ago. He will need more than just an image of a ghost of the past. Above all he needs some ideas and policies to catch the mood. We'll see.

    Good luck with that. Starmer and Attlee are not two individuals that I necessarily associate together. Attlee led a great reforming government (I say this as a Conservative), Starmer is, well he couldn't reform a lemonade!
    I’m intrigued. How do you reform lemonade?

    I mean presumably it starts with drinking the lemonade then pissing in some kind of separator, but what comes next?
  • You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    The ordering seems good, but the dates are very cautious imo. Fine if they are indicators and we are data led as promised but not if they are earliest possible dates.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,455

    TOPPING said:

    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.

    It took several months for the message to get across that covid 19 wasnt like the flu.

    Sadly it may take another few months for the message to get across that post vaccination covid 19 is a bit like the flu or even a cold if the data on serious illness and death holds up.
    My friend who developed symptoms a day or so after his (first) vaccination ten days ago has died. And very few of us have had their second injection.
    We are by no means out of the wood yet.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    ydoethur said:

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one.
    Unfortunately, he doesn’t have too good a record with tightropes:
    I wondered how long it might take someone to come up with that.

    And point of order: a zip wire and a tightrope aren't the same thing. So there.
    I wondered how long it would be before someone made the point in your second paragraph.

    P.S. it wasn't long enough.
    As many of Johnson’s ladyfriends have said after incidents with zips...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999

    TOPPING said:

    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.

    It took several months for the message to get across that covid 19 wasnt like the flu.

    Sadly it may take another few months for the message to get across that post vaccination covid 19 is a bit like the flu or even a cold if the data on serious illness and death holds up.
    That is true.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 39,354

    With regards to pubs, govt support and outdoor opening not being viable. When the time comes and we are ready for outdoor opening, why not continue govt support as is, but also allow outdoor opening without impacting that support? Sure there will be a few winners, but not enough to compensate for their losses the last year, and outdoor socialising places will be important for society as a whole.

    Very sensible. But will the Treasury go for that?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,678
    ydoethur said:

    The Times is indicating that Gove maybe becoming Home Secretary.

    Boris Johnson has stripped Michael Gove of his role overseeing Britain’s future relationship with Europe and replaced him with Lord Frost, who negotiated last year’s Brexit trade deal.

    In a move that opponents claimed amounted to a “sidelining” of Gove, Downing Street said that Frost would have a seat in cabinet and take responsibility for dealings with Brussels.

    He will take Gove’s job as UK chairman of the withdrawal agreement joint committee. Based in the Cabinet Office, Frost will be responsible for talks on easing trade restrictions between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Downing Street said that he would also be in charge of dealing with post-Brexit trade problems as well as overseeing domestic reform to “maximise” the opportunities of having left the EU.

    Brexit was key to Gove’s brief as Cabinet Office minister. He chaired the Brexit operations committee, which is now likely to fall to Frost, 55. Gove will continue to be in charge of civil service reform and liaising with the devolved administrations. The prime minister has put him in charge of a committee to address NHS waiting times, backlogs in the courts and other effects of the pandemic on public services.

    One source suggested that Johnson’s decision had not thrilled Gove, 53, who this week was made interim chairman of the partnership council due to oversee operation of the Brexit trade deal.

    It has also caused unease among officials in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office because Frost’s new role includes “co-ordinating relations” with the 27 EU states.

    A senior government source said that it made sense to have one minister in charge of all elements of Britain’s relationship with the EU. “I’m sure Michael is not thrilled by this but Lord Frost has the expertise having negotiated the trade deal in the first place and it makes sense for one person to oversee the whole relationship,” they said.

    Another source suggested that the move would be followed by a reshuffle this year in which Gove would move to a department such as the Home Office or the Department of Health: “I think there is an understanding that Michael is going to get another big job.”

    An opponent of Gove added: “Gove would get a grip on the Home Office, which Boris needs. And it’s a department where things go wrong, so it may help ease him out of the cabinet too.”

    Other insiders saw the appointment as a sign of Gove’s waning influence in Downing Street. “Fundamentally his relationship with Boris is still scarred by the 2016 leadership election,” a source said. “The PM just doesn’t trust him.” This is denied by Gove’s allies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-stripped-of-europe-role-as-brexit-negotiator-david-frost-joins-cabinet-mbswt0dql

    In defence of Gove (not something I say often) I think he would actually be quite a good fit at the Home Office. He is both hard working and determined. Once he has set his mind to something, he carries it through regardless of the consequences, and goodness knows the Home Office could do with some of that.

    The trick always was to make sure he set his mind to the right thing, which is where he went tragically wrong at education.
    Gove is a depressingly rare talent in UK politics. He is clever, a clear thinker, no respecter of institutions and open to new ideas, especially his own. Of course he doesn't always get it right but it is something to be cherished compared with the managers elsewhere who toe the departmental line from the off since they are incapable of original thought.

    Boris really doesn't have anyone like him. Wherever Gove is put there will be change, controversy and attention. What Boris needs to do is think which part of government he wants that for the most. Its a big call because it is entirely possible that this might well shape the second half of his premiership every bit as much as Brexit did the first half.
  • TOPPING said:

    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.

    It took several months for the message to get across that covid 19 wasnt like the flu.

    Sadly it may take another few months for the message to get across that post vaccination covid 19 is a bit like the flu or even a cold if the data on serious illness and death holds up.
    My friend who developed symptoms a day or so after his (first) vaccination ten days ago has died. And very few of us have had their second injection.
    We are by no means out of the wood yet.
    From those timelines he obviously caught it pre vaccination. I am quite clear pre vaccination covid 19 is much more dangerous than the flu. The sad case of your friend does not change the fact that post vaccination covid 19 will be a disease we can manage similarly to flus and colds.

    The data so far indicates a single dose, followed by a 2-3 week wait, does prevent hospitalisations.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,769
    TOPPING said:

    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.

    No it doesn't. Not when everyone has had a first jab by April. There is no reason to believe those infection rates and cases will be sustainable so as to threaten the NHS.

    By end May, everyone that wants it will have had a first jab. The most vulnerable a second. The only reason to keep lockdown then is to protect those who have chosen not to have a jab. And no politician is going to say we need to retain lockdown in place to protect them.

    With the rollout of the vaccine there is no case for lockdown beyond end May. International travel, yes. But getting on with your "normal" life within GB borders? No reason to stop that.

    (NI is a somewhat different case because of its porous border with Ireland. Which is why it is in our interests to donate enough vaccines to Ireland, as soon as all in the UK have had a first dose.)
  • ydoethur said:

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    The flaw there is it seems there is enormous pressure within the government, especially at the DfE, to operate all schools at full capacity* simultaneously from March 8th, regardless of the situation or the effect.

    Why is uncertain. It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children and want to quickly farm them back out to teachers.

    Sadly, I find this all too plausible.

    *Worded carefully, because they have never actually closed.
    Possibly because the children's education and development matters - and if the most vulnerable have been vaccinated then losing another months education is not a good idea?

    I don't think its wrong to prioritise education over other issues, do you?
  • eekeek Posts: 11,029
    edited February 18
    ydoethur said:

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one.
    Unfortunately, he doesn’t have too good a record with tightropes:
    You know that was planned and staged?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,349

    TOPPING said:

    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.

    It took several months for the message to get across that covid 19 wasnt like the flu.

    Sadly it may take another few months for the message to get across that post vaccination covid 19 is a bit like the flu or even a cold if the data on serious illness and death holds up.
    My friend who developed symptoms a day or so after his (first) vaccination ten days ago has died. And very few of us have had their second injection.
    We are by no means out of the wood yet.
    That’s very sad and I am sorry for your loss. You have the knowledge and training to know that your friend couldn’t have had time to develop immunity from the injection.
    I think the evidence will hold that single jab plus 3 weeks does confer at least some protection. Sadly for some they will fall ill before that happens.
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,170
    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    I read somehwere yesterday that Starmer is planning to pitch himself as the new Atlee - as was suggested by some on here several weeks ago. He will need more than just an image of a ghost of the past. Above all he needs some ideas and policies to catch the mood. We'll see.

    Good luck with that. Starmer and Attlee are not two individuals that I necessarily associate together. Attlee led a great reforming government (I say this as a Conservative), Starmer is, well he couldn't reform a lemonade!
    I’m intrigued. How do you reform lemonade?

    I mean presumably it starts with drinking the lemonade then pissing in some kind of separator, but what comes next?
    Sour grapes?
  • ydoethur said:

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    The flaw there is it seems there is enormous pressure within the government, especially at the DfE, to operate all schools at full capacity* simultaneously from March 8th, regardless of the situation or the effect.

    Why is uncertain. It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children and want to quickly farm them back out to teachers.

    Sadly, I find this all too plausible.

    *Worded carefully, because they have never actually closed.
    It's really difficult to call what will happen with secondary schools. Are we really ready for all schools to go back 8 March? There is clearly some political pressure there. The 'let's test secondary school pupils twice a week' idea maybe floated as the mitigation. I'm not convinced by that.

    I'm more confident on my timings for nonessential retail and pubs than for secondary schools.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,769
    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    I read somehwere yesterday that Starmer is planning to pitch himself as the new Atlee - as was suggested by some on here several weeks ago. He will need more than just an image of a ghost of the past. Above all he needs some ideas and policies to catch the mood. We'll see.

    Good luck with that. Starmer and Attlee are not two individuals that I necessarily associate together. Attlee led a great reforming government (I say this as a Conservative), Starmer is, well he couldn't reform a lemonade!
    I’m intrigued. How do you reform lemonade?

    I mean presumably it starts with drinking the lemonade then pissing in some kind of separator, but what comes next?
    Selling it....
  • Worst news of the year, it means we will have the Sky commentators for the white ball games and not the fair and balanced Indian commentators.

    Buried in the middle of this article.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/02/17/england-will-allow-ipl-players-miss-new-zealand-series/

    Sky respond to Channel 4 Test defeat with white-ball win

    Channel 4 will not be showing the white-ball leg of England’s tour to India with Sky set to announce they have won the rights after missing out on the Test series.

    Sky will show the five Twenty20 internationals and three ODIs starting on March 12 after outbidding rivals for the deal with Star Sports.

    Sky were determined not to miss out on the white-ball matches after losing out to Channel 4 with the current series the first time Test cricket has been shown on terrestrial television since 2005.

    Sky have also agreed a 12 month deal to show India’s home international cricket including matches against South Africa, West Indies, Sri Lanka and New Zealand as they react strongly to losing the rights for the current England Test series.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    ydoethur said:

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    The flaw there is it seems there is enormous pressure within the government, especially at the DfE, to operate all schools at full capacity* simultaneously from March 8th, regardless of the situation or the effect.

    Why is uncertain. It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children and want to quickly farm them back out to teachers.

    Sadly, I find this all too plausible.

    *Worded carefully, because they have never actually closed.
    Possibly because the children's education and development matters - and if the most vulnerable have been vaccinated then losing another months education is not a good idea?

    I don't think its wrong to prioritise education over other issues, do you?
    Depends on how much damage it does elsewhere.

    Also depends a bit on whether we *can* effectively deliver education (which was not the case in December when one in four children were off school).

    That is why it is a tradeoff.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,989
    My condolences, King Cole.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 5,924

    ydoethur said:

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    The flaw there is it seems there is enormous pressure within the government, especially at the DfE, to operate all schools at full capacity* simultaneously from March 8th, regardless of the situation or the effect.

    Why is uncertain. It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children and want to quickly farm them back out to teachers.

    Sadly, I find this all too plausible.

    *Worded carefully, because they have never actually closed.
    Possibly because the children's education and development matters - and if the most vulnerable have been vaccinated then losing another months education is not a good idea?

    I don't think its wrong to prioritise education over other issues, do you?
    That's what Planning Lawyers call "a matter of fact and degree". There is no right answer imo.
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,170

    TOPPING said:

    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.

    It took several months for the message to get across that covid 19 wasnt like the flu.

    Sadly it may take another few months for the message to get across that post vaccination covid 19 is a bit like the flu or even a cold if the data on serious illness and death holds up.
    My friend who developed symptoms a day or so after his (first) vaccination ten days ago has died. And very few of us have had their second injection.
    We are by no means out of the wood yet.
    These cases are particuarly tragic - like returning soldiers who die slow deaths from old wounds - it is why the slow vaccine rollout here in Spain makes me and many others so anxious. Frustrating as the country has everything in place for half a million doses a week - except for the doses themselves!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,769
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one.
    Unfortunately, he doesn’t have too good a record with tightropes:
    You know that was planned and staged?
    You do?
  • Worst news of the year, it means we will have the Sky commentators for the white ball games and not the fair and balanced Indian commentators.

    Buried in the middle of this article.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/02/17/england-will-allow-ipl-players-miss-new-zealand-series/

    Sky respond to Channel 4 Test defeat with white-ball win

    Channel 4 will not be showing the white-ball leg of England’s tour to India with Sky set to announce they have won the rights after missing out on the Test series.

    Sky will show the five Twenty20 internationals and three ODIs starting on March 12 after outbidding rivals for the deal with Star Sports.

    Sky were determined not to miss out on the white-ball matches after losing out to Channel 4 with the current series the first time Test cricket has been shown on terrestrial television since 2005.

    Sky have also agreed a 12 month deal to show India’s home international cricket including matches against South Africa, West Indies, Sri Lanka and New Zealand as they react strongly to losing the rights for the current England Test series.

    Sounds like they dont mind losing rights to BT or Amazon but really dont want top sport free to air.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,678
    felix said:

    I read somehwere yesterday that Starmer is planning to pitch himself as the new Atlee - as was suggested by some on here several weeks ago. He will need more than just an image of a ghost of the past. Above all he needs some ideas and policies to catch the mood. We'll see.

    Build back better gives so many opportunities that it is hard to know where to start.

    Massive parts of the bricks parts of retail are going to close or in many cases not reopen: what do we do about our town centres?

    Millions more will be on what are effectively zero hour contracts or "self employed": how do we protect workers rights?

    We have a Tory government, a Tory government, setting up institutions to invest in our future: surely Labour can envisage something more ambitious still in that regard.

    Millions and millions are never going back to the office full time: how do ensure that they are working safely, not being exploited, having their privacy protected etc etc? What are the implications for public transport and those businesses left in towns and cities that need workers to provide their custom?

    We will have an NHS that is dealing with the worst backlog of work since it was created with many staff stressed and exhausted. How do we address that?

    Just a couple of minutes thought produces more issues than you need for a tranche of speeches about the alternative country he wants us to have. Does he really have no ideas at all?
  • Sorry for your loss King Cole.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,678
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Times is indicating that Gove maybe becoming Home Secretary.

    Boris Johnson has stripped Michael Gove of his role overseeing Britain’s future relationship with Europe and replaced him with Lord Frost, who negotiated last year’s Brexit trade deal.

    In a move that opponents claimed amounted to a “sidelining” of Gove, Downing Street said that Frost would have a seat in cabinet and take responsibility for dealings with Brussels.

    He will take Gove’s job as UK chairman of the withdrawal agreement joint committee. Based in the Cabinet Office, Frost will be responsible for talks on easing trade restrictions between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Downing Street said that he would also be in charge of dealing with post-Brexit trade problems as well as overseeing domestic reform to “maximise” the opportunities of having left the EU.

    Brexit was key to Gove’s brief as Cabinet Office minister. He chaired the Brexit operations committee, which is now likely to fall to Frost, 55. Gove will continue to be in charge of civil service reform and liaising with the devolved administrations. The prime minister has put him in charge of a committee to address NHS waiting times, backlogs in the courts and other effects of the pandemic on public services.

    One source suggested that Johnson’s decision had not thrilled Gove, 53, who this week was made interim chairman of the partnership council due to oversee operation of the Brexit trade deal.

    It has also caused unease among officials in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office because Frost’s new role includes “co-ordinating relations” with the 27 EU states.

    A senior government source said that it made sense to have one minister in charge of all elements of Britain’s relationship with the EU. “I’m sure Michael is not thrilled by this but Lord Frost has the expertise having negotiated the trade deal in the first place and it makes sense for one person to oversee the whole relationship,” they said.

    Another source suggested that the move would be followed by a reshuffle this year in which Gove would move to a department such as the Home Office or the Department of Health: “I think there is an understanding that Michael is going to get another big job.”

    An opponent of Gove added: “Gove would get a grip on the Home Office, which Boris needs. And it’s a department where things go wrong, so it may help ease him out of the cabinet too.”

    Other insiders saw the appointment as a sign of Gove’s waning influence in Downing Street. “Fundamentally his relationship with Boris is still scarred by the 2016 leadership election,” a source said. “The PM just doesn’t trust him.” This is denied by Gove’s allies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-stripped-of-europe-role-as-brexit-negotiator-david-frost-joins-cabinet-mbswt0dql

    In defence of Gove (not something I say often) I think he would actually be quite a good fit at the Home Office. He is both hard working and determined. Once he has set his mind to something, he carries it through regardless of the consequences, and goodness knows the Home Office could do with some of that.

    The trick always was to make sure he set his mind to the right thing, which is where he went tragically wrong at education.
    Gove is a depressingly rare talent in UK politics. He is clever, a clear thinker, no respecter of institutions and open to new ideas, especially his own. Of course he doesn't always get it right but it is something to be cherished compared with the managers elsewhere who toe the departmental line from the off since they are incapable of original thought.

    Boris really doesn't have anyone like him. Wherever Gove is put there will be change, controversy and attention. What Boris needs to do is think which part of government he wants that for the most. Its a big call because it is entirely possible that this might well shape the second half of his premiership every bit as much as Brexit did the first half.
    Tbh, while I can see the logic of the Home Office, your post is correct, and that suggests there is a much more useful role he could perform.

    Keep his current post, but be put in charge of all national infrastructure. HS2. Railway reopenings. Fibre optic cabling. Water supplies. Electricity generation and transmission.

    God knows that will be a hell of a job, but it would be perfectly suited to his talents.

    And all of them are of desperate importance and renewal and reform have been delayed for far too long.
    Yes, and the electrification of our transport system. Its a good idea.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999
    ydoethur said:

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children
    What is becoming quite clear is that one of the worse outcomes for children would be to find themselves as one of your pupils.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children
    What is becoming quite clear is that one of the worse outcomes for children would be to find themselves as one of your pupils.
    Well, we’re even mate, because I’ve found myself feeling really sorry for any poor sod who served under your command given how unpleasant and selfish you’ve shown yourself to be.
  • I'm guessing is Star Sports related to Star that Disney+ keep advertising?

    I wonder if/when Disney will branch into live sport? Would get a lot of attention for their platform.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children
    What is becoming quite clear is that one of the worse outcomes for children would be to find themselves as one of your pupils.
    Well, we’re even mate, because I’ve found myself feeling really sorry for any poor sod who served under your command given how unpleasant and selfish you’ve shown yourself to be.
    Selfish. From the teacher who doesn't want to spend an extra few days helping his pupils.

    Whatever the strengths and weaknesses of my army career I've mentioned none of it. You meanwhile have told us a lot about how you approach the teaching profession.

    You're in the wrong job.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,420
    ydoethur said:

    Good thread.

    We're all champing at the bit but the last thing we need medically, and the last thing Johnson needs politically, is to jump the gun and find we're battling higher infection rates again. This has to be, and will be, the final lockdown.

    So there will be a lot of noise over the next few days. The Daily Mail and the Telegraph have been constantly moaning about restrictions, until they were made to look stupid, so the PM would be wise to use them to line Larry's litter tray.

    I think that after Monday as things gradually ease up the clamour will abate. What people need is hope and that is coming.

    Yes, though Johnson does need to walk the tightrope successfully on this one.
    Unfortunately, he doesn’t have too good a record with tightropes:
    An image that defies logic, more than it does gravity.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,769
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Times is indicating that Gove maybe becoming Home Secretary.

    Boris Johnson has stripped Michael Gove of his role overseeing Britain’s future relationship with Europe and replaced him with Lord Frost, who negotiated last year’s Brexit trade deal.

    In a move that opponents claimed amounted to a “sidelining” of Gove, Downing Street said that Frost would have a seat in cabinet and take responsibility for dealings with Brussels.

    He will take Gove’s job as UK chairman of the withdrawal agreement joint committee. Based in the Cabinet Office, Frost will be responsible for talks on easing trade restrictions between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Downing Street said that he would also be in charge of dealing with post-Brexit trade problems as well as overseeing domestic reform to “maximise” the opportunities of having left the EU.

    Brexit was key to Gove’s brief as Cabinet Office minister. He chaired the Brexit operations committee, which is now likely to fall to Frost, 55. Gove will continue to be in charge of civil service reform and liaising with the devolved administrations. The prime minister has put him in charge of a committee to address NHS waiting times, backlogs in the courts and other effects of the pandemic on public services.

    One source suggested that Johnson’s decision had not thrilled Gove, 53, who this week was made interim chairman of the partnership council due to oversee operation of the Brexit trade deal.

    It has also caused unease among officials in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office because Frost’s new role includes “co-ordinating relations” with the 27 EU states.

    A senior government source said that it made sense to have one minister in charge of all elements of Britain’s relationship with the EU. “I’m sure Michael is not thrilled by this but Lord Frost has the expertise having negotiated the trade deal in the first place and it makes sense for one person to oversee the whole relationship,” they said.

    Another source suggested that the move would be followed by a reshuffle this year in which Gove would move to a department such as the Home Office or the Department of Health: “I think there is an understanding that Michael is going to get another big job.”

    An opponent of Gove added: “Gove would get a grip on the Home Office, which Boris needs. And it’s a department where things go wrong, so it may help ease him out of the cabinet too.”

    Other insiders saw the appointment as a sign of Gove’s waning influence in Downing Street. “Fundamentally his relationship with Boris is still scarred by the 2016 leadership election,” a source said. “The PM just doesn’t trust him.” This is denied by Gove’s allies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-stripped-of-europe-role-as-brexit-negotiator-david-frost-joins-cabinet-mbswt0dql

    In defence of Gove (not something I say often) I think he would actually be quite a good fit at the Home Office. He is both hard working and determined. Once he has set his mind to something, he carries it through regardless of the consequences, and goodness knows the Home Office could do with some of that.

    The trick always was to make sure he set his mind to the right thing, which is where he went tragically wrong at education.
    Gove is a depressingly rare talent in UK politics. He is clever, a clear thinker, no respecter of institutions and open to new ideas, especially his own. Of course he doesn't always get it right but it is something to be cherished compared with the managers elsewhere who toe the departmental line from the off since they are incapable of original thought.

    Boris really doesn't have anyone like him. Wherever Gove is put there will be change, controversy and attention. What Boris needs to do is think which part of government he wants that for the most. Its a big call because it is entirely possible that this might well shape the second half of his premiership every bit as much as Brexit did the first half.
    Tbh, while I can see the logic of the Home Office, your post is correct, and that suggests there is a much more useful role he could perform.

    Keep his current post, but be put in charge of all national infrastructure. HS2. Railway reopenings. Fibre optic cabling. Water supplies. Electricity generation and transmission.

    God knows that will be a hell of a job, but it would be perfectly suited to his talents.

    And all of them are of desperate importance and renewal and reform have been delayed for far too long.
    Yes, and the electrification of our transport system. Its a good idea.
    Would endorse that. He can see the sense of a system of tidal lagoon power stations too.

    Infrastructure Tsar.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children
    What is becoming quite clear is that one of the worse outcomes for children would be to find themselves as one of your pupils.
    Well, we’re even mate, because I’ve found myself feeling really sorry for any poor sod who served under your command given how unpleasant and selfish you’ve shown yourself to be.
    Selfish. From the teacher who doesn't want to spend an extra few days helping his pupils.

    Whatever the strengths and weaknesses of my army career I've mentioned none of it. You meanwhile have told us a lot about how you approach the teaching profession.

    You're in the wrong job.
    As I have repeatedly told you, I have spent many extra days helping people. And I have worked in extension lessons, after school and in holidays, doing just that.

    So that makes you a liar as well as a fool.

    What I object to is having it imposed by diktat to protect the careers of your fellow thick poshos.

    When you apologise for lying to me and about me, I’ll engage with you again.

    Until then - fuck off.
  • eekeek Posts: 11,029

    I'm guessing is Star Sports related to Star that Disney+ keep advertising?

    I wonder if/when Disney will branch into live sport? Would get a lot of attention for their platform.

    Disney already own ESPN and that survives on cable fees.

    Also Disney plus is a global brand and sport actually doesn't travel that well except for a couple of exceptions (Soccer being the main one).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 50,313
    edited February 18
    eek said:

    I'm guessing is Star Sports related to Star that Disney+ keep advertising?

    I wonder if/when Disney will branch into live sport? Would get a lot of attention for their platform.

    Disney already own ESPN and that survives on cable fees.

    Also Disney plus is a global brand and sport actually doesn't travel that well except for a couple of exceptions (Soccer being the main one).
    True though Disney+ varies by locale already doesn't it, like Netflix does?

    Eg originally the UK Disney+ was going to be missing The Simpsons due to Sky owning the rights to it, until Sky and Disney reached an agreement.

    Does ESPN get much in the way of fees in this country? I've never thought much about ESPN, it just doesn't seem that significant here.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 5,924

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Times is indicating that Gove maybe becoming Home Secretary.

    Boris Johnson has stripped Michael Gove of his role overseeing Britain’s future relationship with Europe and replaced him with Lord Frost, who negotiated last year’s Brexit trade deal.

    In a move that opponents claimed amounted to a “sidelining” of Gove, Downing Street said that Frost would have a seat in cabinet and take responsibility for dealings with Brussels.

    He will take Gove’s job as UK chairman of the withdrawal agreement joint committee. Based in the Cabinet Office, Frost will be responsible for talks on easing trade restrictions between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Downing Street said that he would also be in charge of dealing with post-Brexit trade problems as well as overseeing domestic reform to “maximise” the opportunities of having left the EU.

    Brexit was key to Gove’s brief as Cabinet Office minister. He chaired the Brexit operations committee, which is now likely to fall to Frost, 55. Gove will continue to be in charge of civil service reform and liaising with the devolved administrations. The prime minister has put him in charge of a committee to address NHS waiting times, backlogs in the courts and other effects of the pandemic on public services.

    One source suggested that Johnson’s decision had not thrilled Gove, 53, who this week was made interim chairman of the partnership council due to oversee operation of the Brexit trade deal.

    It has also caused unease among officials in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office because Frost’s new role includes “co-ordinating relations” with the 27 EU states.

    A senior government source said that it made sense to have one minister in charge of all elements of Britain’s relationship with the EU. “I’m sure Michael is not thrilled by this but Lord Frost has the expertise having negotiated the trade deal in the first place and it makes sense for one person to oversee the whole relationship,” they said.

    Another source suggested that the move would be followed by a reshuffle this year in which Gove would move to a department such as the Home Office or the Department of Health: “I think there is an understanding that Michael is going to get another big job.”

    An opponent of Gove added: “Gove would get a grip on the Home Office, which Boris needs. And it’s a department where things go wrong, so it may help ease him out of the cabinet too.”

    Other insiders saw the appointment as a sign of Gove’s waning influence in Downing Street. “Fundamentally his relationship with Boris is still scarred by the 2016 leadership election,” a source said. “The PM just doesn’t trust him.” This is denied by Gove’s allies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-stripped-of-europe-role-as-brexit-negotiator-david-frost-joins-cabinet-mbswt0dql

    In defence of Gove (not something I say often) I think he would actually be quite a good fit at the Home Office. He is both hard working and determined. Once he has set his mind to something, he carries it through regardless of the consequences, and goodness knows the Home Office could do with some of that.

    The trick always was to make sure he set his mind to the right thing, which is where he went tragically wrong at education.
    Gove is a depressingly rare talent in UK politics. He is clever, a clear thinker, no respecter of institutions and open to new ideas, especially his own. Of course he doesn't always get it right but it is something to be cherished compared with the managers elsewhere who toe the departmental line from the off since they are incapable of original thought.

    Boris really doesn't have anyone like him. Wherever Gove is put there will be change, controversy and attention. What Boris needs to do is think which part of government he wants that for the most. Its a big call because it is entirely possible that this might well shape the second half of his premiership every bit as much as Brexit did the first half.
    Tbh, while I can see the logic of the Home Office, your post is correct, and that suggests there is a much more useful role he could perform.

    Keep his current post, but be put in charge of all national infrastructure. HS2. Railway reopenings. Fibre optic cabling. Water supplies. Electricity generation and transmission.

    God knows that will be a hell of a job, but it would be perfectly suited to his talents.

    And all of them are of desperate importance and renewal and reform have been delayed for far too long.
    Yes, and the electrification of our transport system. Its a good idea.
    Would endorse that. He can see the sense of a system of tidal lagoon power stations too.

    Infrastructure Tsar.
    That's 2 people and a Labrador, then :smile: .
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 4,428
    Maybe Gaia is preparing to forgive us -


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Times is indicating that Gove maybe becoming Home Secretary.

    Boris Johnson has stripped Michael Gove of his role overseeing Britain’s future relationship with Europe and replaced him with Lord Frost, who negotiated last year’s Brexit trade deal.

    In a move that opponents claimed amounted to a “sidelining” of Gove, Downing Street said that Frost would have a seat in cabinet and take responsibility for dealings with Brussels.

    He will take Gove’s job as UK chairman of the withdrawal agreement joint committee. Based in the Cabinet Office, Frost will be responsible for talks on easing trade restrictions between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Downing Street said that he would also be in charge of dealing with post-Brexit trade problems as well as overseeing domestic reform to “maximise” the opportunities of having left the EU.

    Brexit was key to Gove’s brief as Cabinet Office minister. He chaired the Brexit operations committee, which is now likely to fall to Frost, 55. Gove will continue to be in charge of civil service reform and liaising with the devolved administrations. The prime minister has put him in charge of a committee to address NHS waiting times, backlogs in the courts and other effects of the pandemic on public services.

    One source suggested that Johnson’s decision had not thrilled Gove, 53, who this week was made interim chairman of the partnership council due to oversee operation of the Brexit trade deal.

    It has also caused unease among officials in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office because Frost’s new role includes “co-ordinating relations” with the 27 EU states.

    A senior government source said that it made sense to have one minister in charge of all elements of Britain’s relationship with the EU. “I’m sure Michael is not thrilled by this but Lord Frost has the expertise having negotiated the trade deal in the first place and it makes sense for one person to oversee the whole relationship,” they said.

    Another source suggested that the move would be followed by a reshuffle this year in which Gove would move to a department such as the Home Office or the Department of Health: “I think there is an understanding that Michael is going to get another big job.”

    An opponent of Gove added: “Gove would get a grip on the Home Office, which Boris needs. And it’s a department where things go wrong, so it may help ease him out of the cabinet too.”

    Other insiders saw the appointment as a sign of Gove’s waning influence in Downing Street. “Fundamentally his relationship with Boris is still scarred by the 2016 leadership election,” a source said. “The PM just doesn’t trust him.” This is denied by Gove’s allies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-stripped-of-europe-role-as-brexit-negotiator-david-frost-joins-cabinet-mbswt0dql

    In defence of Gove (not something I say often) I think he would actually be quite a good fit at the Home Office. He is both hard working and determined. Once he has set his mind to something, he carries it through regardless of the consequences, and goodness knows the Home Office could do with some of that.

    The trick always was to make sure he set his mind to the right thing, which is where he went tragically wrong at education.
    Gove is a depressingly rare talent in UK politics. He is clever, a clear thinker, no respecter of institutions and open to new ideas, especially his own. Of course he doesn't always get it right but it is something to be cherished compared with the managers elsewhere who toe the departmental line from the off since they are incapable of original thought.

    Boris really doesn't have anyone like him. Wherever Gove is put there will be change, controversy and attention. What Boris needs to do is think which part of government he wants that for the most. Its a big call because it is entirely possible that this might well shape the second half of his premiership every bit as much as Brexit did the first half.
    Tbh, while I can see the logic of the Home Office, your post is correct, and that suggests there is a much more useful role he could perform.

    Keep his current post, but be put in charge of all national infrastructure. HS2. Railway reopenings. Fibre optic cabling. Water supplies. Electricity generation and transmission.

    God knows that will be a hell of a job, but it would be perfectly suited to his talents.

    And all of them are of desperate importance and renewal and reform have been delayed for far too long.
    Yes, and the electrification of our transport system. Its a good idea.
    Would endorse that. He can see the sense of a system of tidal lagoon power stations too.

    Infrastructure Tsar.
    That's 2 people and a Labrador, then :smile: .
    He’ll be romanover the country to see what he can do.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 90,119
    edited February 18

    I'm guessing is Star Sports related to Star that Disney+ keep advertising?

    I wonder if/when Disney will branch into live sport? Would get a lot of attention for their platform.

    Yes and no, Star Sports is part of the Disney Group.

    However Disney + are advertising Star.

    https://disney.co.uk/disney-plus-star

    It is all very confusing when you consider there's Starz available on Amazon.

    Star Plus (another Asian channel) is also owned by the House of Mouse.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,678
    DougSeal said:

    Maybe Gaia is preparing to forgive us -


    Or has been defeated once again. Some infestations are worse than others and homo sapiens is one of the worst.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children
    As I said to Contrarian yesterday, or maybe the day before, the malevolent overlords he sees everywhere also have real lives impacted by this mess.
    It is, in its own way, mildly amusing to think that the civil servants at the DfE will for the first time have understood what teaching involves as a result of lockdown.

    Not that it will make any practical difference, of course.
  • I'm guessing is Star Sports related to Star that Disney+ keep advertising?

    I wonder if/when Disney will branch into live sport? Would get a lot of attention for their platform.

    Yes and no, Star Sports is part of the Disney Group.

    However Disney + are advertising Star.

    https://disney.co.uk/disney-plus-star

    It is all very confusing when you consider there's Starz available on Amazon.

    Star Plus (another Asian channel) is also owned by the House of Mouse.
    That's what I thought, Star seems to turn the House of Mouse offering into a more well rounded Netflix style one. A fair few of the shows being advertised, like HIMYM, are on Netflix already so I'm curious how that will work whether they'll stay on both.
  • DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    Maybe Gaia is preparing to forgive us -


    Or has been defeated once again. Some infestations are worse than others and homo sapiens is one of the worst.
    Like the weather, I see a lot of people complain about Covid-19 but nobody is prepared to sacrifice a pineapple on pizza lovers virgin or two to end the plagues.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 29,998

    Worst news of the year, it means we will have the Sky commentators for the white ball games and not the fair and balanced Indian commentators.

    Buried in the middle of this article.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/02/17/england-will-allow-ipl-players-miss-new-zealand-series/

    Sky respond to Channel 4 Test defeat with white-ball win

    Channel 4 will not be showing the white-ball leg of England’s tour to India with Sky set to announce they have won the rights after missing out on the Test series.

    Sky will show the five Twenty20 internationals and three ODIs starting on March 12 after outbidding rivals for the deal with Star Sports.

    Sky were determined not to miss out on the white-ball matches after losing out to Channel 4 with the current series the first time Test cricket has been shown on terrestrial television since 2005.

    Sky have also agreed a 12 month deal to show India’s home international cricket including matches against South Africa, West Indies, Sri Lanka and New Zealand as they react strongly to losing the rights for the current England Test series.

    Sky really unhappy at cricket getting the biggest audiences in 16 years, from being on terrestrial TV.

    Over a million people got up early to watch the first Test against India.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,455

    TOPPING said:

    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.

    It took several months for the message to get across that covid 19 wasnt like the flu.

    Sadly it may take another few months for the message to get across that post vaccination covid 19 is a bit like the flu or even a cold if the data on serious illness and death holds up.
    My friend who developed symptoms a day or so after his (first) vaccination ten days ago has died. And very few of us have had their second injection.
    We are by no means out of the wood yet.
    That’s very sad and I am sorry for your loss. You have the knowledge and training to know that your friend couldn’t have had time to develop immunity from the injection.
    I think the evidence will hold that single jab plus 3 weeks does confer at least some protection. Sadly for some they will fall ill before that happens.
    That is of course, quite right, and thanks, too, to those who have sympathised. The point I was trying to make is that vaccination in itself isn't the whole of the answer, and that we need to reach a state of 'herd immunity', which will take some time.
    Opening up, in the sense of returning to what it was like socially in 2019, shouldn't happen for while.
  • TOPPING said:

    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.

    It took several months for the message to get across that covid 19 wasnt like the flu.

    Sadly it may take another few months for the message to get across that post vaccination covid 19 is a bit like the flu or even a cold if the data on serious illness and death holds up.
    My friend who developed symptoms a day or so after his (first) vaccination ten days ago has died. And very few of us have had their second injection.
    We are by no means out of the wood yet.
    That’s very sad and I am sorry for your loss. You have the knowledge and training to know that your friend couldn’t have had time to develop immunity from the injection.
    I think the evidence will hold that single jab plus 3 weeks does confer at least some protection. Sadly for some they will fall ill before that happens.
    That is of course, quite right, and thanks, too, to those who have sympathised. The point I was trying to make is that vaccination in itself isn't the whole of the answer, and that we need to reach a state of 'herd immunity', which will take some time.
    Opening up, in the sense of returning to what it was like socially in 2019, shouldn't happen for while.
    Herd immunity won't be achievable until young adults and little ones are vaccinated, but by vaccinating the most vulnerable first a much bigger reopening should be possible very soon.
  • I'm guessing is Star Sports related to Star that Disney+ keep advertising?

    I wonder if/when Disney will branch into live sport? Would get a lot of attention for their platform.

    Yes and no, Star Sports is part of the Disney Group.

    However Disney + are advertising Star.

    https://disney.co.uk/disney-plus-star

    It is all very confusing when you consider there's Starz available on Amazon.

    Star Plus (another Asian channel) is also owned by the House of Mouse.
    That's what I thought, Star seems to turn the House of Mouse offering into a more well rounded Netflix style one. A fair few of the shows being advertised, like HIMYM, are on Netflix already so I'm curious how that will work whether they'll stay on both.
    Eventually the exclusive rights will default back to Disney.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    TOPPING said:

    People again talking about infection rates and cases.

    Doesn't matter. It's hospitalisations and deaths.

    Infection rates and cases gets us to July in lockdown.

    It took several months for the message to get across that covid 19 wasnt like the flu.

    Sadly it may take another few months for the message to get across that post vaccination covid 19 is a bit like the flu or even a cold if the data on serious illness and death holds up.
    My friend who developed symptoms a day or so after his (first) vaccination ten days ago has died. And very few of us have had their second injection.
    We are by no means out of the wood yet.
    That’s very sad and I am sorry for your loss. You have the knowledge and training to know that your friend couldn’t have had time to develop immunity from the injection.
    I think the evidence will hold that single jab plus 3 weeks does confer at least some protection. Sadly for some they will fall ill before that happens.
    That is of course, quite right, and thanks, too, to those who have sympathised. The point I was trying to make is that vaccination in itself isn't the whole of the answer, and that we need to reach a state of 'herd immunity', which will take some time.
    Opening up, in the sense of returning to what it was like socially in 2019, shouldn't happen for while.
    Very sad news for you and the family. Is it possible that being infected and having the vaccine is an especially bad combination?

    I can’t see what can be done about it given how long it takes to show symptoms, but it underlines how nasty and unusual this virus is.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    edited February 18
    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    Maybe Gaia is preparing to forgive us -


    Or has been defeated once again. Some infestations are worse than others and homo sapiens is one of the worst.
    Let's bring this virus and planet to heel! We are the masters here, Gaia.
  • ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    I can see a certain logic in starting opening schools that early, as we then get some real numbers in the last 2-3 weeks of term and changes can be made in the Easter break if necessary.
    How many times? It’s four weeks! Lancashire, where @Philip_Thompson lives, breaks up a week earlier than everywhere else.
    Technically 3.8 weeks, but yes, we don’t break up until Maundy Thursday.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,727

    felix said:

    I read somehwere yesterday that Starmer is planning to pitch himself as the new Atlee - as was suggested by some on here several weeks ago. He will need more than just an image of a ghost of the past. Above all he needs some ideas and policies to catch the mood. We'll see.

    Good luck with that. Starmer and Attlee are not two individuals that I necessarily associate together. Attlee led a great reforming government (I say this as a Conservative), Starmer is, well he couldn't reform a lemonade!
    I don't agree about Attlee's government - many of the major reforms, especially the health service and education, were in the pipeline anyway, and lots of the others, such as his nationalisations, were self-defeating or actively harmful. He and the Churchill government after him kept rationing and other wartime controls for much too long. And the bloodbath in India over partition occurred on his indifferent watch. The one good thing he did was stand to the Russians. But that was probably inevitable.

    But, anyway, what let Attlee do as much as he did was his very strong team, which Starmer doesn't have (Annelise who?).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    You heard it here first:

    The Plan will talk about Stages. Not tiers or levels as they have been used before.

    Stage 1 (8 March) - primary schools open, secondary schools maybe 15 March with enhanced testing. Limited social meeting outside allowed.

    Stage 2 (29 March) - non essential retail opens.

    Stage 3 (26 April) - pubs restaurants and hotels open. Inside and out. Maximum of two households mixing. Contact details required, mandatory table service, masks when moving around. No curfew or substantial meal. Domestic holidays allowed including going to holiday homes. One metre plus social distancing in operation.

    Stage 4 (31 May) - opening of outdoor sporting areas with capacity restricted eg cricket.

    Later (1 September) - subject to vaccine progress, return to near normal domestically.

    It has even been suggested that several very senior figures at the DfE are fed up with homeschooling their own less than pleasant children
    What is becoming quite clear is that one of the worse outcomes for children would be to find themselves as one of your pupils.
    Well, we’re even mate, because I’ve found myself feeling really sorry for any poor sod who served under your command given how unpleasant and selfish you’ve shown yourself to be.
    Selfish. From the teacher who doesn't want to spend an extra few days helping his pupils.

    Whatever the strengths and weaknesses of my army career I've mentioned none of it. You meanwhile have told us a lot about how you approach the teaching profession.

    You're in the wrong job.
    As I have repeatedly told you, I have spent many extra days helping people. And I have worked in extension lessons, after school and in holidays, doing just that.

    So that makes you a liar as well as a fool.

    What I object to is having it imposed by diktat to protect the careers of your fellow thick poshos.

    When you apologise for lying to me and about me, I’ll engage with you again.

    Until then - fuck off.
    OH NO. NOT ENGAGING.

    I'll manage.

    Flounce all you want, petal. You didn't want to go the extra mile because Union/DfE whatever. You have to live with that, not me. Oh and your pupils, heaven help them. I hope you don't think too many of them are less than pleasant also.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    I can see a certain logic in starting opening schools that early, as we then get some real numbers in the last 2-3 weeks of term and changes can be made in the Easter break if necessary.
    How many times? It’s four weeks! Lancashire, where @Philip_Thompson lives, breaks up a week earlier than everywhere else.
    Technically 3.8 weeks, but yes, we don’t break up until Maundy Thursday.
    Trust a physicist to insist on the decimal point.
  • ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    I can see a certain logic in starting opening schools that early, as we then get some real numbers in the last 2-3 weeks of term and changes can be made in the Easter break if necessary.
    How many times? It’s four weeks! Lancashire, where @Philip_Thompson lives, breaks up a week earlier than everywhere else.
    Technically 3.8 weeks, but yes, we don’t break up until Maundy Thursday.
    April Fools Day, as it is also known.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    Fishing said:

    felix said:

    I read somehwere yesterday that Starmer is planning to pitch himself as the new Atlee - as was suggested by some on here several weeks ago. He will need more than just an image of a ghost of the past. Above all he needs some ideas and policies to catch the mood. We'll see.

    Good luck with that. Starmer and Attlee are not two individuals that I necessarily associate together. Attlee led a great reforming government (I say this as a Conservative), Starmer is, well he couldn't reform a lemonade!
    I don't agree about Attlee's government - many of the major reforms, especially the health service and education, were in the pipeline anyway, and lots of the others, such as his nationalisations, were self-defeating or actively harmful. He and the Churchill government after him kept rationing and other wartime controls for much too long. And the bloodbath in India over partition occurred on his indifferent watch. The one good thing he did was stand to the Russians. But that was probably inevitable.

    But, anyway, what let Attlee do as much as he did was his very strong team, which Starmer doesn't have (Annelise who?).
    Bit harsh to blame Attlee for a series of atrocious harvests due partly to the war and partly to bad weather.

    Squandering Marshall Aid I will give you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    If schools are reopened on March 8th - and the deliberate leaking of that to multiple outlets by the DfE suggests they are trying to make it impossible for Johnson not to reopen them - no way are cases going to be below 1,000 a week by April. The end of May, if we’re lucky. And even then, only if we continue to ramp up vaccinations and the weather improves.

    I can see a certain logic in starting opening schools that early, as we then get some real numbers in the last 2-3 weeks of term and changes can be made in the Easter break if necessary.
    How many times? It’s four weeks! Lancashire, where @Philip_Thompson lives, breaks up a week earlier than everywhere else.
    Technically 3.8 weeks, but yes, we don’t break up until Maundy Thursday.
    April Fools Day, as it is also known.
    That will be a washout this year.

    (Now there’s a really technical, geeky pun.)
  • Telly & cricket. Sky is putting up its prices more than somewhat, following BT, Virgin and Netflix (and the licence fee). Up to £72 a year extra, according to the Telegraph.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/02/17/sky-hikes-tv-broadband-prices-72-year/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    edited February 18

    Telly & cricket. Sky is putting up its prices more than somewhat, following BT, Virgin and Netflix (and the licence fee). Up to £72 a year extra, according to the Telegraph.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/02/17/sky-hikes-tv-broadband-prices-72-year/

    That’s bizarre. Why, when there are so many of them, are prices going up?

    I suppose it’s an example of market failure - given they all have unique content.

    Not really sustainable over the long run though. People will start to make choices and the subscriber list will go down.
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