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Tonight’s big political bet – how many Senators will vote to impeach Trump? – politicalbetting.com

13

Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all have this to look forward to

    That's the DUPs price for future support, right there.

    Looks like they got a down payment.....
    An Antrim payment surely?
    Derry amusing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all that this to look forward to

    I've heard that would be en expensive, technical nightmare. But I don't think anyone cares about the cost of things anymore in fairness.
    I heard the cost of tunnelling has very significantly decreased since the Channel Tunnel. Still about a million tons of munitions in that trench above, so you are going to have to go REALLY deep - or around.

    If you wanted a really funky project - but safer - try TWO tunnels. But with the Isle of Man in between them. And starting in Cumbria - cutting out Scotland, just in case it goes independent.

    Put the customs posts on the IoM presumably. And quite a major spur off the M6.
    That keeps those Cumbrian seats safe. A fast motorway round the coast to Whitehaven, presumably.
  • kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    This speech by McConnell.

    Absolute wow.

    What a coward. He wants trump convicted but too scared to do it himself.

    I didn't think my opinion of him could go any lower yet here I am.

    The man's 78 and probably not standing again, what did he have to lose by growing some balls?
    His balls had already been surgically removed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiN6NDmONFM
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    It's costing £75m near me just to put in a road to go around a medium sized town, I break out in cold sweats at the thought of hte cost of a road or tunnel to NI, over/under/around a munitions dump.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Weird though that some people seem to complain about BBC journalists voicing this kind of "opinion" about a foreign country ONLY when the foreign country is the USA.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    kle4 said:

    It's costing £75m near me just to put in a road to go around a medium sized town, I break out in cold sweats at the thought of hte cost of a road or tunnel to NI, over/under/around a munitions dump.

    How about a very very large spiral ramp..
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,550

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited February 2021
    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all that this to look forward to

    I've heard that would be en expensive, technical nightmare. But I don't think anyone cares about the cost of things anymore in fairness.
    I heard the cost of tunnelling has very significantly decreased since the Channel Tunnel. Still about a million tons of munitions in that trench above, so you are going to have to go REALLY deep - or around.

    If you wanted a really funky project - but safer - try TWO tunnels. But with the Isle of Man in between them. And starting in Cumbria - cutting out Scotland, just in case it goes independent.

    Why are we planning to dig a tunnel to NI when it is likely to be just full of queueing food lorries struggling to show all the correct paperwork to enter the single market?
    I assume it'll never happen (given how long things take they wouldn't get out of the planning phase in this parliament), but it's just that Boris intended his premiership to be about 'levelling' up the country with big spending on infrastructure, and he wants to get that image back in peoples' heads with the elections in 3 months.
    Something I have been kicking around. Boris was OK at the start of the pandemic. He got the nation on board with the lockdown in March. His numbers were great. But then, he lost his way when he got Covid. And then the lockdowns had to be reinstated and relaxed and then reinstated by him. It was a real downer. It's not who Boris is. The messing around

    BUT...then came the vaccine roll-out. It really is Boris at his best. Big idea stuff being implemented. So the vaccine didn't need a Hard-hat and a JCB, but it was the sort of stuff he envisaged doing before the Bastard Bug took hold. Grand, legacy projects. Linking the UK together is as big a project as he could ever leave behind. It's what makes Boris fired up. OK, he's been robbed of the money for the nation to pay. But with very low interest rates, private capital can take these on. With some helping hand from Govt. to prime the pump.

    Prediction: Boris is going to spend the next few years making these things happen.

    Up north.

  • Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all that this to look forward to

    I've heard that would be en expensive, technical nightmare. But I don't think anyone cares about the cost of things anymore in fairness.
    I heard the cost of tunnelling has very significantly decreased since the Channel Tunnel. Still about a million tons of munitions in that trench above, so you are going to have to go REALLY deep - or around.

    If you wanted a really funky project - but safer - try TWO tunnels. But with the Isle of Man in between them. And starting in Cumbria - cutting out Scotland, just in case it goes independent.

    Put the customs posts on the IoM presumably. And quite a major spur off the M6.
    That keeps those Cumbrian seats safe. A fast motorway round the coast to Whitehaven, presumably.
    The vast sums spent on dual roads streaking up to Aberdeen and other points north do good business in...speeding fines if not commercial traffic.
    But then I am I bit jaundiced ... I do know what the problems are between Exeter and Barnstable.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    kamski said:

    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Weird though that some people seem to complain about BBC journalists voicing this kind of "opinion" about a foreign country ONLY when the foreign country is the USA.
    Do they - I get very annoyed watching both CNN and Fox as they in no way resemble news channels wrt US politics. They are way more partisan than anything in the UK or here in Spain [ insofar as my Spanish allows me to understand some of the niceties]. I presume you mean when the BBC report on places like China, N. Korea , etc. I watch the BBC World service a lot and on the whole they seem to report more and comment less. This is the balance I prefer as I can then make my own judgement. I watch Euronews too and their reports are pretty neutral in the main - the only recent exception being the silly Keating character who is clearly crazy about the whole vaccine business.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    HYUFD said:
    I'm struggling. What was hypocritical about impeaching Trump?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    So the Covid deaths over the past 7 days are sub-700 (688). That's a big drop. Yay!! We got there.

    Sub 500 next week. Sub 350 by the end of the February. Sub-150 a day by the end of March. Maybe even back down into just double figures.

    That looks like a great decline to me.
  • felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Weird though that some people seem to complain about BBC journalists voicing this kind of "opinion" about a foreign country ONLY when the foreign country is the USA.
    Do they - I get very annoyed watching both CNN and Fox as they in no way resemble news channels wrt US politics. They are way more partisan than anything in the UK or here in Spain [ insofar as my Spanish allows me to understand some of the niceties]. I presume you mean when the BBC report on places like China, N. Korea , etc. I watch the BBC World service a lot and on the whole they seem to report more and comment less. This is the balance I prefer as I can then make my own judgement. I watch Euronews too and their reports are pretty neutral in the main - the only recent exception being the silly Keating character who is clearly crazy about the whole vaccine business.
    In the last week alone I've seen news reports (Sky since I don't want the Beeb but I'm assuming BBC are the same) of journalists calling out the Chinese (Uighur, Hong Kong), Russians (Navalny) and Myanmar (Aung San Suu Kyi). They quite rightly don't just stick to the 'official' line being of the country being reported on.

    How is this any different?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Surely the incitement thing was the basis of the trial. Like the process or not the idea of an acquittal suggests the incitement was not proven. IANAE but I thought that was the idea of the 'rule of law'. I'm not keen on the 'rule of the journo hack' as an alternative, whatever my personal views about Trump.
  • felix said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Surely the incitement thing was the basis of the trial. Like the process or not the idea of an acquittal suggests the incitement was not proven. IANAE but I thought that was the idea of the 'rule of law'. I'm not keen on the 'rule of the journo hack' as an alternative, whatever my personal views about Trump.
    So when a Russian court says that Navalny is the criminal that is all the media should report? 🤔
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    I'm struggling. What was hypocritical about impeaching Trump?
    I think he wants BLM rioters impeached. He may be a bit confused.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Weird though that some people seem to complain about BBC journalists voicing this kind of "opinion" about a foreign country ONLY when the foreign country is the USA.
    Do they - I get very annoyed watching both CNN and Fox as they in no way resemble news channels wrt US politics. They are way more partisan than anything in the UK or here in Spain [ insofar as my Spanish allows me to understand some of the niceties]. I presume you mean when the BBC report on places like China, N. Korea , etc. I watch the BBC World service a lot and on the whole they seem to report more and comment less. This is the balance I prefer as I can then make my own judgement. I watch Euronews too and their reports are pretty neutral in the main - the only recent exception being the silly Keating character who is clearly crazy about the whole vaccine business.
    I have never heard anyone on here complain about BBC journalists offering a critical analysis of Putin or Erdogan, but there seem to be what seem to me to be complaints about comments like this from BBC journalists about Trump.

    Unless I have completely misunderstood, for example, this from you:
    "When journalists make such clearly partisan comments they have zero credibility. With Fox and CNN this is pretty normal these days. From the BBC disappointing. Like the result or not - he has had a trial under the law of the constitution. Due process has I presume been followed. I think the big losers politically are the Republicans. I'd rather journalism was not added to the list."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,086
    edited February 2021
    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    I wasn't actually wasn't complaining...more observing that my understanding was the new boss of the BBC had told them they weren't to voice opinions, especially on politics, on twitter. So if it criticizing Trump or Erdogan, it doesn't matter, the dictact was to refrain.

    There was quite a backlash against it from the staff, so I wonder if they have quietly dropped it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    kle4 said:

    It's costing £75m near me just to put in a road to go around a medium sized town, I break out in cold sweats at the thought of hte cost of a road or tunnel to NI, over/under/around a munitions dump.

    The accepted multiplier in big civil engineering contracts is 2.8. So if you spend £10 billion, the knock-on contracts makes it feel like £28 billion.

    If you want to spend your way out of Covid, that is the way to do it. The Govt. spends £30 billion. It feels like £84 billion to the northern economies.
  • kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    I wasn't actually wasn't complaining...more observing that my understanding was the new boss of the BBC had told them they weren't to voice opinions, especially on politics, on twitter. There was quite a backlash against it from the staff, so I wonder if they have quietly dropped it.
    I'm not sure if that was meant to apply to reporting foreign politics.

    How would you report on eg the Navalny case etc without delving into opinions? When countries don't have t he rule of law then what's supposed to be done?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    That though is a criticism of the legal processes in different countries, control of the judiciary, etc. People may well feel that Trump is awful on many levels. Last time I looked the US has a functioning democracy, legal system , etc. However, on the wider point, I want journalists to report the news rather than tell people what to think.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    I wasn't actually wasn't complaining...more observing that my understanding was the new boss of the BBC had told them they weren't to voice opinions, especially on politics, on twitter. There was quite a backlash against it from the staff, so I wonder if they have quietly dropped it.
    Probably.
    As it is entirely unenforceable in all but the most blatant cases. Which would be covered by existing contracts anyways.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    I wasn't actually wasn't complaining...more observing that my understanding was the new boss of the BBC had told them they weren't to voice opinions, especially on politics, on twitter. There was quite a backlash against it from the staff, so I wonder if they have quietly dropped it.
    OK, I'm not really familiar with the story, and I don't use Twitter so don't really care, but perhaps those "rules" would apply more to UK politics than foreign news?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all that this to look forward to

    I've heard that would be en expensive, technical nightmare. But I don't think anyone cares about the cost of things anymore in fairness.
    I heard the cost of tunnelling has very significantly decreased since the Channel Tunnel. Still about a million tons of munitions in that trench above, so you are going to have to go REALLY deep - or around.

    If you wanted a really funky project - but safer - try TWO tunnels. But with the Isle of Man in between them. And starting in Cumbria - cutting out Scotland, just in case it goes independent.

    Why are we planning to dig a tunnel to NI when it is likely to be just full of queueing food lorries struggling to show all the correct paperwork to enter the single market?
    I assume it'll never happen (given how long things take they wouldn't get out of the planning phase in this parliament), but it's just that Boris intended his premiership to be about 'levelling' up the country with big spending on infrastructure, and he wants to get that image back in peoples' heads with the elections in 3 months.
    Something I have been kicking around. Boris was OK at the start of the pandemic. He got the nation on board with the lockdown in March. His numbers were great. But then, he lost his way when he got Covid. And then the lockdowns had to be reinstated and relaxed and then reinstated by him. It was a real downer. It's not who Boris is. The messing around

    BUT...then came the vaccine roll-out. It really is Boris at his best. Big idea stuff being implemented. So the vaccine didn't need a Hard-hat and a JCB, but it was the sort of stuff he envisaged doing before the Bastard Bug took hold. Grand, legacy projects. Linking the UK together is as big a project as he could ever leave behind. It's what makes Boris fired up. OK, he's been robbed of the money for the nation to pay. But with very low interest rates, private capital can take these on. With some helping hand from Govt. to prime the pump.

    Prediction: Boris is going to spend the next few years making these things happen.

    Up north.

    Exciting.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    The Democrats made a huge error in pressing for impeachment. Staggeringly poor politics.
  • felix said:

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    That though is a criticism of the legal processes in different countries, control of the judiciary, etc. People may well feel that Trump is awful on many levels. Last time I looked the US has a functioning democracy, legal system , etc. However, on the wider point, I want journalists to report the news rather than tell people what to think.
    Indeed and this was an entirely factual reporting of another country, the control of the Senate, the events and the reason for most Republicans to acquit despite the facts.
  • kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    I wasn't actually wasn't complaining...more observing that my understanding was the new boss of the BBC had told them they weren't to voice opinions, especially on politics, on twitter. There was quite a backlash against it from the staff, so I wonder if they have quietly dropped it.
    I'm not sure if that was meant to apply to reporting foreign politics.

    How would you report on eg the Navalny case etc without delving into opinions? When countries don't have t he rule of law then what's supposed to be done?
    The point was the dictact was about doing so via twitter. I personally always thought it was a stupid rule. The thought that stopping somebody posting a partisan political point on twitter proves they don't hold partisan views is ludicrous.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all that this to look forward to

    I've heard that would be en expensive, technical nightmare. But I don't think anyone cares about the cost of things anymore in fairness.
    I heard the cost of tunnelling has very significantly decreased since the Channel Tunnel. Still about a million tons of munitions in that trench above, so you are going to have to go REALLY deep - or around.

    If you wanted a really funky project - but safer - try TWO tunnels. But with the Isle of Man in between them. And starting in Cumbria - cutting out Scotland, just in case it goes independent.

    Put the customs posts on the IoM presumably. And quite a major spur off the M6.
    That keeps those Cumbrian seats safe. A fast motorway round the coast to Whitehaven, presumably.
    The vast sums spent on dual roads streaking up to Aberdeen and other points north do good business in...speeding fines if not commercial traffic.
    But then I am I bit jaundiced ... I do know what the problems are between Exeter and Barnstable.
    A north-south major road in Devon would be welcome. It is well over two hours south coast to north coast. Just staying in the one county. I've only been up there once in ten years, because it is so hassle-some.

    But you'd annoy a host of folk, wherever you sited it.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Weird though that some people seem to complain about BBC journalists voicing this kind of "opinion" about a foreign country ONLY when the foreign country is the USA.
    Do they - I get very annoyed watching both CNN and Fox as they in no way resemble news channels wrt US politics. They are way more partisan than anything in the UK or here in Spain [ insofar as my Spanish allows me to understand some of the niceties]. I presume you mean when the BBC report on places like China, N. Korea , etc. I watch the BBC World service a lot and on the whole they seem to report more and comment less. This is the balance I prefer as I can then make my own judgement. I watch Euronews too and their reports are pretty neutral in the main - the only recent exception being the silly Keating character who is clearly crazy about the whole vaccine business.
    In the last week alone I've seen news reports (Sky since I don't want the Beeb but I'm assuming BBC are the same) of journalists calling out the Chinese (Uighur, Hong Kong), Russians (Navalny) and Myanmar (Aung San Suu Kyi). They quite rightly don't just stick to the 'official' line being of the country being reported on.

    How is this any different?
    The BBC is not the same as SKY - especially the World service. Further if you cannot see the difference between open democracies and closed authoritarian countries then any discussion is clearly pointless. We must agree to differ.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Surely the incitement thing was the basis of the trial. Like the process or not the idea of an acquittal suggests the incitement was not proven. IANAE but I thought that was the idea of the 'rule of law'. I'm not keen on the 'rule of the journo hack' as an alternative, whatever my personal views about Trump.
    So when a Russian court says that Navalny is the criminal that is all the media should report? 🤔
    You may see the US and Russia as equivalent wrt to democratic structures and the rule of law. I do not.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all that this to look forward to

    I've heard that would be en expensive, technical nightmare. But I don't think anyone cares about the cost of things anymore in fairness.
    I heard the cost of tunnelling has very significantly decreased since the Channel Tunnel. Still about a million tons of munitions in that trench above, so you are going to have to go REALLY deep - or around.

    If you wanted a really funky project - but safer - try TWO tunnels. But with the Isle of Man in between them. And starting in Cumbria - cutting out Scotland, just in case it goes independent.

    Put the customs posts on the IoM presumably. And quite a major spur off the M6.
    That keeps those Cumbrian seats safe. A fast motorway round the coast to Whitehaven, presumably.
    The vast sums spent on dual roads streaking up to Aberdeen and other points north do good business in...speeding fines if not commercial traffic.
    But then I am I bit jaundiced ... I do know what the problems are between Exeter and Barnstable.
    A north-south major road in Devon would be welcome. It is well over two hours south coast to north coast. Just staying in the one county. I've only been up there once in ten years, because it is so hassle-some.

    But you'd annoy a host of folk, wherever you sited it.

    Er, there is a dual carriageway from Exeter to Barnstaple? A fast, efficient road as I recall
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    felix said:

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    That though is a criticism of the legal processes in different countries, control of the judiciary, etc. People may well feel that Trump is awful on many levels. Last time I looked the US has a functioning democracy, legal system , etc. However, on the wider point, I want journalists to report the news rather than tell people what to think.
    But the impeachment "trial" is not any kind of normal legal process is it? It's not really controversial to suggest that the Republican senators who voted to acquit did so for political reasons, rather than after carefully considering the evidence in a legal sense.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    The Democrats made a huge error in pressing for impeachment. Staggeringly poor politics.

    Some things are worth attempting even if they will fail. What he did crossed so many lines and as they argued, if this was not impeachable what was?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,673

    If we built two giant dams - one between Stranraer and Larne, and the other between Fishguard and Rosslare - then we could simply pump out the contents of the Irish Sea and create thousands of square miles of extra land. Roads and railways could then be built across it without any of this inconvenient tunnelling nonsense. Problem solved.

    Once the dams are built roads and railways could run along the top of them and they could be used to generate vast amounts of tidal electricity.

    No need to pump the water out... In fact you'd be forever pumping as the rivers of Wales, northern England, southern Scotland and eastern Ireland would be constantly filling up the basin.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    If we built two giant dams - one between Stranraer and Larne, and the other between Fishguard and Rosslare - then we could simply pump out the contents of the Irish Sea and create thousands of square miles of extra land. Roads and railways could then be built across it without any of this inconvenient tunnelling nonsense. Problem solved.

    Once the dams are built roads and railways could run along the top of them and they could be used to generate vast amounts of tidal electricity.

    No need to pump the water out... In fact you'd be forever pumping as the rivers of Wales, northern England, southern Scotland and eastern Ireland would be constantly filling up the basin.
    Small scale thinking. How about this...
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/bigthink.com/amp/north-sea-dam-2645223131
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    kamski said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Weird though that some people seem to complain about BBC journalists voicing this kind of "opinion" about a foreign country ONLY when the foreign country is the USA.
    Do they - I get very annoyed watching both CNN and Fox as they in no way resemble news channels wrt US politics. They are way more partisan than anything in the UK or here in Spain [ insofar as my Spanish allows me to understand some of the niceties]. I presume you mean when the BBC report on places like China, N. Korea , etc. I watch the BBC World service a lot and on the whole they seem to report more and comment less. This is the balance I prefer as I can then make my own judgement. I watch Euronews too and their reports are pretty neutral in the main - the only recent exception being the silly Keating character who is clearly crazy about the whole vaccine business.
    I have never heard anyone on here complain about BBC journalists offering a critical analysis of Putin or Erdogan, but there seem to be what seem to me to be complaints about comments like this from BBC journalists about Trump.

    Unless I have completely misunderstood, for example, this from you:
    "When journalists make such clearly partisan comments they have zero credibility. With Fox and CNN this is pretty normal these days. From the BBC disappointing. Like the result or not - he has had a trial under the law of the constitution. Due process has I presume been followed. I think the big losers politically are the Republicans. I'd rather journalism was not added to the list."
    For me when a reporter appears to override in his commentary a decision based on due process in a country with a functioning democracy where the rule of law prevails, for me this is not good journalism. If you think that Turkey and Russia are equivalent functioning democracies to the USA, EU and the UK good on you. We must agree to differ.
  • rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    I'm struggling. What was hypocritical about impeaching Trump?
    This is THE Trumpskyite line now, as reflected in The Donald's "defense" at his second trial. That the Democrats have been just as bad, just as inflamatory, just as provocative as You-Know-Who.

    Hogwash, and most of 'em (senators, politicos, pundits, voters) know it. BUT they think if they just keep repeating it, before long, not only will THEY believe it, but that they can get a (bare) majority of the electorate (at least in key states and districts) to believe it too.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all have this to look forward to

    That's the DUPs price for future support, right there.

    Looks like they got a down payment.....
    Johnson does like big shiny projects - garden bridge, Boris Island... Only thing is, they don't seem to actually, like, happen.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,673
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all that this to look forward to

    I've heard that would be en expensive, technical nightmare. But I don't think anyone cares about the cost of things anymore in fairness.
    I heard the cost of tunnelling has very significantly decreased since the Channel Tunnel. Still about a million tons of munitions in that trench above, so you are going to have to go REALLY deep - or around.

    If you wanted a really funky project - but safer - try TWO tunnels. But with the Isle of Man in between them. And starting in Cumbria - cutting out Scotland, just in case it goes independent.

    Put the customs posts on the IoM presumably. And quite a major spur off the M6.
    That keeps those Cumbrian seats safe. A fast motorway round the coast to Whitehaven, presumably.
    The vast sums spent on dual roads streaking up to Aberdeen and other points north do good business in...speeding fines if not commercial traffic.
    But then I am I bit jaundiced ... I do know what the problems are between Exeter and Barnstable.
    A north-south major road in Devon would be welcome. It is well over two hours south coast to north coast. Just staying in the one county. I've only been up there once in ten years, because it is so hassle-some.

    But you'd annoy a host of folk, wherever you sited it.

    Er, there is a dual carriageway from Exeter to Barnstaple? A fast, efficient road as I recall
    Bloody hell, I'm glad I have never met you coming the other way in the 'fast lane' of the A377!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    I wasn't actually wasn't complaining...more observing that my understanding was the new boss of the BBC had told them they weren't to voice opinions, especially on politics, on twitter. There was quite a backlash against it from the staff, so I wonder if they have quietly dropped it.
    I'm not sure if that was meant to apply to reporting foreign politics.

    How would you report on eg the Navalny case etc without delving into opinions? When countries don't have t he rule of law then what's supposed to be done?
    So you believe the US doesn't have the rule of law? Then you are clear. Fair enough.
  • The storming of the Capitol obviously had nothing to do with a mob in Farage's mind, ofcourse. What a deeply inadequate and dangerous man he is, and yet the single most important figure behind this country's most important decision in 50 years.

    There were 17.5 million important men and women actually. And I was not one of them. It was a very fine judgement, but in the end I was willing to put up with it, the effort by Cameron, for an easy life. But I believe in democracy and an accommodation. But rampant europhiles and others just playing politics and wanted to frustrate ANY agreement.
    So having seen that, no way no way no way, will I go near the EU, which goes even less democratic every day.

    Thank you and good night.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Global cases AND deaths now in steep decline.

    We are maybe through the worst - Deus Vult

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421
    kle4 said:

    The Democrats made a huge error in pressing for impeachment. Staggeringly poor politics.

    Some things are worth attempting even if they will fail. What he did crossed so many lines and as they argued, if this was not impeachable what was?
    Yes. The mistake was not in impeachment, it was in not convicting. That error was the Republicans.

    If the Republicans are not made to pay for that error then the whole of the USA will end up doing so.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    kamski said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    That though is a criticism of the legal processes in different countries, control of the judiciary, etc. People may well feel that Trump is awful on many levels. Last time I looked the US has a functioning democracy, legal system , etc. However, on the wider point, I want journalists to report the news rather than tell people what to think.
    But the impeachment "trial" is not any kind of normal legal process is it? It's not really controversial to suggest that the Republican senators who voted to acquit did so for political reasons, rather than after carefully considering the evidence in a legal sense.
    That is a different issue altogether. The impeachment process is clearly unsatisfactory - you might just as easily say that Democratic senators were politically motivated. The journalist did not make that point however.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Where is the opinion?
  • Leon said:

    Global cases AND deaths now in steep decline.

    We are maybe through the worst - Deus Vult

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

    The speed of drop off in South Africa is incredible.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    If we built two giant dams - one between Stranraer and Larne, and the other between Fishguard and Rosslare - then we could simply pump out the contents of the Irish Sea and create thousands of square miles of extra land. Roads and railways could then be built across it without any of this inconvenient tunnelling nonsense. Problem solved.

    Once the dams are built roads and railways could run along the top of them and they could be used to generate vast amounts of tidal electricity.

    No need to pump the water out... In fact you'd be forever pumping as the rivers of Wales, northern England, southern Scotland and eastern Ireland would be constantly filling up the basin.
    The rivers would be needed to irrigate the fantastic reclaimed farmland that would be created by the project. However, any excess water could be carried out over the tops of the dams on a system of giant aqueducts. These trifling problems are easily solved.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all that this to look forward to

    I've heard that would be en expensive, technical nightmare. But I don't think anyone cares about the cost of things anymore in fairness.
    I heard the cost of tunnelling has very significantly decreased since the Channel Tunnel. Still about a million tons of munitions in that trench above, so you are going to have to go REALLY deep - or around.

    If you wanted a really funky project - but safer - try TWO tunnels. But with the Isle of Man in between them. And starting in Cumbria - cutting out Scotland, just in case it goes independent.

    Put the customs posts on the IoM presumably. And quite a major spur off the M6.
    That keeps those Cumbrian seats safe. A fast motorway round the coast to Whitehaven, presumably.
    The vast sums spent on dual roads streaking up to Aberdeen and other points north do good business in...speeding fines if not commercial traffic.
    But then I am I bit jaundiced ... I do know what the problems are between Exeter and Barnstable.
    A north-south major road in Devon would be welcome. It is well over two hours south coast to north coast. Just staying in the one county. I've only been up there once in ten years, because it is so hassle-some.

    But you'd annoy a host of folk, wherever you sited it.

    Er, there is a dual carriageway from Exeter to Barnstaple? A fast, efficient road as I recall
    Bloody hell, I'm glad I have never met you coming the other way in the 'fast lane' of the A377!
    I confess my geography is hazy. But there is a fast road. The North Devon Link Road? I just remember zipping along it
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Leon said:

    Global cases AND deaths now in steep decline.

    We are maybe through the worst - Deus Vult

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

    It may be a statistical quirk though - deaths shifting from countries where decent records are kept (the developed world) to those where they are much patchier (Latin America, Africa, South Asia).
  • felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Weird though that some people seem to complain about BBC journalists voicing this kind of "opinion" about a foreign country ONLY when the foreign country is the USA.
    Do they - I get very annoyed watching both CNN and Fox as they in no way resemble news channels wrt US politics. They are way more partisan than anything in the UK or here in Spain [ insofar as my Spanish allows me to understand some of the niceties]. I presume you mean when the BBC report on places like China, N. Korea , etc. I watch the BBC World service a lot and on the whole they seem to report more and comment less. This is the balance I prefer as I can then make my own judgement. I watch Euronews too and their reports are pretty neutral in the main - the only recent exception being the silly Keating character who is clearly crazy about the whole vaccine business.
    I have never heard anyone on here complain about BBC journalists offering a critical analysis of Putin or Erdogan, but there seem to be what seem to me to be complaints about comments like this from BBC journalists about Trump.

    Unless I have completely misunderstood, for example, this from you:
    "When journalists make such clearly partisan comments they have zero credibility. With Fox and CNN this is pretty normal these days. From the BBC disappointing. Like the result or not - he has had a trial under the law of the constitution. Due process has I presume been followed. I think the big losers politically are the Republicans. I'd rather journalism was not added to the list."
    For me when a reporter appears to override in his commentary a decision based on due process in a country with a functioning democracy where the rule of law prevails, for me this is not good journalism. If you think that Turkey and Russia are equivalent functioning democracies to the USA, EU and the UK good on you. We must agree to differ.
    The rule of law does not prevail here.

    The rule of politics prevailed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,086
    edited February 2021
    Front pages full of stories of the unlocking....seems government have been busy briefing again

    Back in the boozer for Easter apparently. Picnics with anybody from March 8th..... just got to move the snow before putting the blanket down!
  • felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    That though is a criticism of the legal processes in different countries, control of the judiciary, etc. People may well feel that Trump is awful on many levels. Last time I looked the US has a functioning democracy, legal system , etc. However, on the wider point, I want journalists to report the news rather than tell people what to think.
    But the impeachment "trial" is not any kind of normal legal process is it? It's not really controversial to suggest that the Republican senators who voted to acquit did so for political reasons, rather than after carefully considering the evidence in a legal sense.
    That is a different issue altogether. The impeachment process is clearly unsatisfactory - you might just as easily say that Democratic senators were politically motivated. The journalist did not make that point however.
    Why would he?

    Seven Republicans voted with the Democrats. As he said, it was the most crosspartisan impeachment vote that has ever been held.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    kle4 said:

    The Democrats made a huge error in pressing for impeachment. Staggeringly poor politics.

    Some things are worth attempting even if they will fail. What he did crossed so many lines and as they argued, if this was not impeachable what was?
    Yes. The mistake was not in impeachment, it was in not convicting. That error was the Republicans.

    If the Republicans are not made to pay for that error then the whole of the USA will end up doing so.
    I believe that the Republican party should have voted to impeach in the long-term interest of the party surviving. America is in a very difficult place at the moment - the degree of polarisation is close to 50/50. Biden has a difficult task ahead of him. The country needs a period of calm and stabilty.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    I'm struggling. What was hypocritical about impeaching Trump?
    The claim is that they said some fairly inflammatory things in the context of BLM. BS of course.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,440
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    An undersea tunnel, possibly dubbed “Boris’ burrow”, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland could get the green light as early next month

    Via @Telegraph

    ..at least we’ll all that this to look forward to

    I've heard that would be en expensive, technical nightmare. But I don't think anyone cares about the cost of things anymore in fairness.
    I heard the cost of tunnelling has very significantly decreased since the Channel Tunnel. Still about a million tons of munitions in that trench above, so you are going to have to go REALLY deep - or around.

    If you wanted a really funky project - but safer - try TWO tunnels. But with the Isle of Man in between them. And starting in Cumbria - cutting out Scotland, just in case it goes independent.

    Put the customs posts on the IoM presumably. And quite a major spur off the M6.
    That keeps those Cumbrian seats safe. A fast motorway round the coast to Whitehaven, presumably.
    The vast sums spent on dual roads streaking up to Aberdeen and other points north do good business in...speeding fines if not commercial traffic.
    But then I am I bit jaundiced ... I do know what the problems are between Exeter and Barnstable.
    A north-south major road in Devon would be welcome. It is well over two hours south coast to north coast. Just staying in the one county. I've only been up there once in ten years, because it is so hassle-some.

    But you'd annoy a host of folk, wherever you sited it.

    Er, there is a dual carriageway from Exeter to Barnstaple? A fast, efficient road as I recall
    Bloody hell, I'm glad I have never met you coming the other way in the 'fast lane' of the A377!
    I confess my geography is hazy. But there is a fast road. The North Devon Link Road? I just remember zipping along it
    Not exactly N to S though, good as it is...
  • felix said:

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    I wasn't actually wasn't complaining...more observing that my understanding was the new boss of the BBC had told them they weren't to voice opinions, especially on politics, on twitter. There was quite a backlash against it from the staff, so I wonder if they have quietly dropped it.
    I'm not sure if that was meant to apply to reporting foreign politics.

    How would you report on eg the Navalny case etc without delving into opinions? When countries don't have t he rule of law then what's supposed to be done?
    So you believe the US doesn't have the rule of law? Then you are clear. Fair enough.
    In this instance? Absolutely, 100% this was not the "rule of law", there was no court of law here.

    The Senators voted not solely based upon evidence but upon fear they'd be primaried if they voted to convict. If this was a court of law and judges voted to acquit as they feared reprisals if they voted to convict then the rule of law would have broken down already yes.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Weird though that some people seem to complain about BBC journalists voicing this kind of "opinion" about a foreign country ONLY when the foreign country is the USA.
    Do they - I get very annoyed watching both CNN and Fox as they in no way resemble news channels wrt US politics. They are way more partisan than anything in the UK or here in Spain [ insofar as my Spanish allows me to understand some of the niceties]. I presume you mean when the BBC report on places like China, N. Korea , etc. I watch the BBC World service a lot and on the whole they seem to report more and comment less. This is the balance I prefer as I can then make my own judgement. I watch Euronews too and their reports are pretty neutral in the main - the only recent exception being the silly Keating character who is clearly crazy about the whole vaccine business.
    In the last week alone I've seen news reports (Sky since I don't want the Beeb but I'm assuming BBC are the same) of journalists calling out the Chinese (Uighur, Hong Kong), Russians (Navalny) and Myanmar (Aung San Suu Kyi). They quite rightly don't just stick to the 'official' line being of the country being reported on.

    How is this any different?
    I suppose he stated incitement as a fact before saying that trump was acquitted. The implication being the acquittal was wrong. That’s close to an opinion although I don’t think it is problematic as it’s just natural reporting
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Front pages full of stories of the unlocking....seems government have been busy briefing again

    Back in the boozer for Easter apparently. Picnics with anybody from March 8th..... just got to move the snow before putting the blanket down!

    Hmmmm... (a) I don't buy it; (b) if it does happen I hope to goodness it's not too soon - it'd be better to wait than to risk any further major reversals.
  • The Democrats made a huge error in pressing for impeachment. Staggeringly poor politics.

    Felt that way about the first impeachment of You-Know-Who. But NOT the second.

    Why? Because I believed that, given the fact the Senate was clearly NOT going to convict, that an impeachment BEFORE the verdict of the 2020 election was both pointless since the Dems garbled the reason(s) for impeachment at that time, AND there was zero chance of conviction, again on grounds presented and at that time.

    However, the situation has changed in many ways, since a) the election of Joe Biden AND Kamala Harris; b) the attempted Trumpsky Putch; and b) the Democrats winning 50 seats in US Senate.

    With the most important being the Putsch. Which IMHO (shared by many) virtually compelled impeachment, and SHOULD have resulted in conviction. AND even the failure of the attempt, has succeeded in putting the brand of Cain upon the GOP in general, in particular on those politicos & pundits who are STILL standing up (or like Lindsay Graham, slithering around) for their Fearless Leader.




  • Front pages full of stories of the unlocking....seems government have been busy briefing again

    Back in the boozer for Easter apparently. Picnics with anybody from March 8th..... just got to move the snow before putting the blanket down!

    Hmmmm... (a) I don't buy it; (b) if it does happen I hope to goodness it's not too soon - it'd be better to wait than to risk any further major reversals.
    There's never going to be any further major reversals now.

    Even if lifting lockdown triggered R going back up, the vaccine rollout would be increasingly pushing it back down.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,086
    edited February 2021
    Old Tone back again with more suggestions....is he thinking of coming back into politics?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9257783/TONY-BLAIR-world-needs-agree-form-Covid-passport-Britain-lead-way.html
  • Front pages full of stories of the unlocking....seems government have been busy briefing again

    Back in the boozer for Easter apparently. Picnics with anybody from March 8th..... just got to move the snow before putting the blanket down!

    Hmmmm... (a) I don't buy it; (b) if it does happen I hope to goodness it's not too soon - it'd be better to wait than to risk any further major reversals.
    There's never going to be any further major reversals now.

    Even if lifting lockdown triggered R going back up, the vaccine rollout would be increasingly pushing it back down.
    Easter on the piss would be good. I'm getting bored of drinking on Zoon
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    I am no friend of BBC bias, but this analysis when carefully considered looks like a completely reasonable account of the circumstances, or what is sometimes called a factual account. He says that Trump did do certain things which incited people and that some senators had particular motivations when making their decisions. I wonder which facts are seriously in dispute here?

    Precisely.

    If this was a report about Putin or Myanmar then almost nobody would bat an eyelid.
    Indeed, it's like complaining that a BBC journalist shouldn't be allowed to say something critical of Erdogan because a Turkish court, or the Turkish parliament said that Erdogan is right. Actually bizarre how strongly people on here identify with Trump (unless they are Americans).
    That though is a criticism of the legal processes in different countries, control of the judiciary, etc. People may well feel that Trump is awful on many levels. Last time I looked the US has a functioning democracy, legal system , etc. However, on the wider point, I want journalists to report the news rather than tell people what to think.
    But the impeachment "trial" is not any kind of normal legal process is it? It's not really controversial to suggest that the Republican senators who voted to acquit did so for political reasons, rather than after carefully considering the evidence in a legal sense.
    That is a different issue altogether. The impeachment process is clearly unsatisfactory - you might just as easily say that Democratic senators were politically motivated. The journalist did not make that point however.
    Why would he?

    Seven Republicans voted with the Democrats. As he said, it was the most crosspartisan impeachment vote that has ever been held.
    Lol - there have only been 4 ...ever. You really need to do better than that. Look I do not like the porcess of impeachment. However, it is part of the American constitution which is a functioning democracy and the rule of law. The Democrats chose to use it, as is their right. They knew the numbers. In the long run they may achieve their objective but equally they might shore up the sense of grievance which exists among around half of the voters. I doubt if Biden's heart was really in this because he is playing a longer game of winning hearts and minds. Either way, my original point is I like my journalists less partisan - the reason I largely ignore CNN/Fox/Sky , etc.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Weird though that some people seem to complain about BBC journalists voicing this kind of "opinion" about a foreign country ONLY when the foreign country is the USA.
    Do they - I get very annoyed watching both CNN and Fox as they in no way resemble news channels wrt US politics. They are way more partisan than anything in the UK or here in Spain [ insofar as my Spanish allows me to understand some of the niceties]. I presume you mean when the BBC report on places like China, N. Korea , etc. I watch the BBC World service a lot and on the whole they seem to report more and comment less. This is the balance I prefer as I can then make my own judgement. I watch Euronews too and their reports are pretty neutral in the main - the only recent exception being the silly Keating character who is clearly crazy about the whole vaccine business.
    I have never heard anyone on here complain about BBC journalists offering a critical analysis of Putin or Erdogan, but there seem to be what seem to me to be complaints about comments like this from BBC journalists about Trump.

    Unless I have completely misunderstood, for example, this from you:
    "When journalists make such clearly partisan comments they have zero credibility. With Fox and CNN this is pretty normal these days. From the BBC disappointing. Like the result or not - he has had a trial under the law of the constitution. Due process has I presume been followed. I think the big losers politically are the Republicans. I'd rather journalism was not added to the list."
    For me when a reporter appears to override in his commentary a decision based on due process in a country with a functioning democracy where the rule of law prevails, for me this is not good journalism. If you think that Turkey and Russia are equivalent functioning democracies to the USA, EU and the UK good on you. We must agree to differ.
    Are we talking about the same thing?

    A journalist tweeted this: "Historical takeaway: a president who incited an insurrectionary mob to attack the US Capitol was acquitted in an impeachment trial six weeks later partly because Republican Senators were afraid of his personal base."

    It doesn't seem a controversial statement, let alone an attempt to override a "decision based on due process in a country with a functioning democracy where the rule of law prevails"

    Unless you think Trump didn't incite an insurrectionary mob? Even the Republican Senate leader McConnell hasn't said that (in fact he said "There’s no question, none, that President Trump is practically, and morally, responsible for provoking the events of the day"), but instead claims to have voted to acquit because he claims he doesn't think congress has the power to convict after someone has left office (a claim at best disingenuous as he was the one who delayed the senate trial until after Trump had left office).
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Old Tone back again with more suggestions....is he thinking of coming back into politics?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9257783/TONY-BLAIR-world-needs-agree-form-Covid-passport-Britain-lead-way.html

    One thing he has never quite seemed to appreciate is that the average Brit doesn't like ID related stuff. Brits are more freedom loving than that.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Front pages full of stories of the unlocking....seems government have been busy briefing again

    Back in the boozer for Easter apparently. Picnics with anybody from March 8th..... just got to move the snow before putting the blanket down!

    Hmmmm... (a) I don't buy it; (b) if it does happen I hope to goodness it's not too soon - it'd be better to wait than to risk any further major reversals.
    1) Normality is just a few tens of millions of jabs away
    2) The only threat to Boris' position is from the backbenches. Who (rightly IMO) want to open up sooner than SAGE.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,939
    It would be typical of Boris if he built a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland, and by the time it was finished, it linked two independent countries in the EU.
  • kamski said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    kamski said:

    felix said:

    I thought BBC journos were supposed to be taming down their political stances on twitter? I am not saying his take is wrong, but my understanding was they were supposed to be keeping their opinions to themselves.

    https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1360693180493135876?s=20

    It's a factual reporting from another country.
    No it really is not factual reporting. It's as clear an expression of an opinion as you can get.
    Weird though that some people seem to complain about BBC journalists voicing this kind of "opinion" about a foreign country ONLY when the foreign country is the USA.
    Do they - I get very annoyed watching both CNN and Fox as they in no way resemble news channels wrt US politics. They are way more partisan than anything in the UK or here in Spain [ insofar as my Spanish allows me to understand some of the niceties]. I presume you mean when the BBC report on places like China, N. Korea , etc. I watch the BBC World service a lot and on the whole they seem to report more and comment less. This is the balance I prefer as I can then make my own judgement. I watch Euronews too and their reports are pretty neutral in the main - the only recent exception being the silly Keating character who is clearly crazy about the whole vaccine business.
    I have never heard anyone on here complain about BBC journalists offering a critical analysis of Putin or Erdogan, but there seem to be what seem to me to be complaints about comments like this from BBC journalists about Trump.

    Unless I have completely misunderstood, for example, this from you:
    "When journalists make such clearly partisan comments they have zero credibility. With Fox and CNN this is pretty normal these days. From the BBC disappointing. Like the result or not - he has had a trial under the law of the constitution. Due process has I presume been followed. I think the big losers politically are the Republicans. I'd rather journalism was not added to the list."
    For me when a reporter appears to override in his commentary a decision based on due process in a country with a functioning democracy where the rule of law prevails, for me this is not good journalism. If you think that Turkey and Russia are equivalent functioning democracies to the USA, EU and the UK good on you. We must agree to differ.
    Are we talking about the same thing?

    A journalist tweeted this: "Historical takeaway: a president who incited an insurrectionary mob to attack the US Capitol was acquitted in an impeachment trial six weeks later partly because Republican Senators were afraid of his personal base."

    It doesn't seem a controversial statement, let alone an attempt to override a "decision based on due process in a country with a functioning democracy where the rule of law prevails"

    Unless you think Trump didn't incite an insurrectionary mob? Even the Republican Senate leader McConnell hasn't said that (in fact he said "There’s no question, none, that President Trump is practically, and morally, responsible for provoking the events of the day"), but instead claims to have voted to acquit because he claims he doesn't think congress has the power to convict after someone has left office (a claim at best disingenuous as he was the one who delayed the senate trial until after Trump had left office).
    I think he would be content only with a BBC report that went along the following bland and uninformative lines. "Today the US Senate failed to impeach ex US President Trump on a charge of inciting a riot at the Capitol. The leaders of both parties in the Senate accepted that he was entirely responsible for the actions of the rioters. We cannot offer you any insight into the reasons that led an acquittal in such circumstances, because to do so would be to interpret the facts as we see them."
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1360722270466039808

    Might I get to the USA in August after all?
  • I presume this will make HS2 look cheap?

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1360724248382353414?s=19
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Old Tone back again with more suggestions....is he thinking of coming back into politics?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9257783/TONY-BLAIR-world-needs-agree-form-Covid-passport-Britain-lead-way.html

    But, like with the single dose, why isn't Tone feeding these ideas to SKS?

    SKS looks as though he may not have had an original thought in his life.

    He could do with some of Tone's magic stardust coming his way.
  • Maybe we could get swampy and his mates who have been digging the tunnels under HS2 to.do Boris Burrow.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited February 2021
    This year, and in every year to come, the only thing that will make ever make HS2 look cheap (or at least cheaper) is the previously reported estimated cost of HS2, by comparison to the estimate after it is updated.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,117

    It would be typical of Boris if he built a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland, and by the time it was finished, it linked two independent countries in the EU.

    Unlikely as the UK government gets the final say on the Union in Scotland and Unionists still win more votes than Nationalists in NI.

    It is actually a great way to unite our United Kingdom closer together
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,117
    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    The Democrats made a huge error in pressing for impeachment. Staggeringly poor politics.

    Some things are worth attempting even if they will fail. What he did crossed so many lines and as they argued, if this was not impeachable what was?
    Yes. The mistake was not in impeachment, it was in not convicting. That error was the Republicans.

    If the Republicans are not made to pay for that error then the whole of the USA will end up doing so.
    I believe that the Republican party should have voted to impeach in the long-term interest of the party surviving. America is in a very difficult place at the moment - the degree of polarisation is close to 50/50. Biden has a difficult task ahead of him. The country needs a period of calm and stabilty.
    Conviction would have actually seen Trump create a new populist party which would have overtaken the GOP, Trump would have followed what his mate Farage did in creating the Brexit Party in regards to May's Tories and forced a reverse takeover.

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,671

    It would be typical of Boris if he built a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland, and by the time it was finished, it linked two independent countries in the EU.

    We can put it on Scotland's tab.

    What will they do with the spoil? Boris Island?
  • Floater said:
    Yes, it's Opinium.

    They also asked: "Do you think a Labour government led by Keir Starmer would have done a better or worse job at slowing the spread of coronavirus?

    Better 31%
    Worse 20%

    However, as all the news is now dominated by the vaccine rollout, Johnson is at present able to get away with his wider failings on Covid by virtue of being seen to have succeeded with the vaccine.
  • HYUFD said:

    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    The Democrats made a huge error in pressing for impeachment. Staggeringly poor politics.

    Some things are worth attempting even if they will fail. What he did crossed so many lines and as they argued, if this was not impeachable what was?
    Yes. The mistake was not in impeachment, it was in not convicting. That error was the Republicans.

    If the Republicans are not made to pay for that error then the whole of the USA will end up doing so.
    I believe that the Republican party should have voted to impeach in the long-term interest of the party surviving. America is in a very difficult place at the moment - the degree of polarisation is close to 50/50. Biden has a difficult task ahead of him. The country needs a period of calm and stabilty.
    Conviction would have actually seen Trump create a new populist party which would have overtaken the GOP, Trump would have followed what his mate Farage did in creating the Brexit Party in regards to May's Tories and forced a reverse takeover.

    We'll never know now whether your prediction would have happened.

    However, what should not be in dispute is this.

    Not convicting shows that Trump has already created a new populist party by taking over the GOP.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I have just read David Herdson's excellent article on this May's elections. Much of it I do agree with - though I think it is stretching things a bit to view elections held less than 17 months beyond the previous GE as 'midterm', particularly in the context of normal party politics having been in abeyance since March 2020. The polls suggest that the Tories have recovered to roughly how things stood in early Autumn of last year - a steady lead but still well down on the stratospheric poll leads of March/April 2020. I must also point out that the Tories performed well in the County Council elections of April 1961 - and the Urban and City Council elections held a month later. A year later Macmillan's government had become unpopular and the Tories went on to lose in 1964.
  • It would be typical of Boris if he built a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland, and by the time it was finished, it linked two independent countries in the EU.

    "two independent countries in the EU"?

    No country in the EU is independent.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600

    Floater said:
    Yes, it's Opinium.

    They also asked: "Do you think a Labour government led by Keir Starmer would have done a better or worse job at slowing the spread of coronavirus?

    Better 31%
    Worse 20%

    However, as all the news is now dominated by the vaccine rollout, Johnson is at present able to get away with his wider failings on Covid by virtue of being seen to have succeeded with the vaccine.
    It's better to win the fourth lap than the first three. No-one remembers who was winning at the bell.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477
    HYUFD said:

    It would be typical of Boris if he built a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland, and by the time it was finished, it linked two independent countries in the EU.

    Unlikely as the UK government gets the final say on the Union in Scotland and Unionists still win more votes than Nationalists in NI.

    It is actually a great way to unite our United Kingdom closer together
    And as others have pointed out - independent countries in the EU? Um, OK.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,996
    edited February 2021
    .
    HYUFD said:

    It would be typical of Boris if he built a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland, and by the time it was finished, it linked two independent countries in the EU.

    Unlikely as the UK government gets the final say on the Union in Scotland and Unionists still win more votes than Nationalists in NI.

    It is actually a great way to unite our United Kingdom closer together
    Unite the Union in unified unity!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Floater said:
    Yes, it's Opinium.

    They also asked: "Do you think a Labour government led by Keir Starmer would have done a better or worse job at slowing the spread of coronavirus?

    Better 31%
    Worse 20%

    However, as all the news is now dominated by the vaccine rollout, Johnson is at present able to get away with his wider failings on Covid by virtue of being seen to have succeeded with the vaccine.
    It's better to win the fourth lap than the first three. No-one remembers who was winning at the bell.
    I suspect that within a few months when all developed countries will have vaccinated their populations that it will no longer particularly matter who managed to get there first. The final death totals are likely to be just as important - and lasting in terms of impact.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    justin124 said:




    Floater said:
    Yes, it's Opinium.

    They also asked: "Do you think a Labour government led by Keir Starmer would have done a better or worse job at slowing the spread of coronavirus?

    Better 31%
    Worse 20%

    However, as all the news is now dominated by the vaccine rollout, Johnson is at present able to get away with his wider failings on Covid by virtue of being seen to have succeeded with the vaccine.
    It's better to win the fourth lap than the first three. No-one remembers who was winning at the bell.
    I suspect that within a few months when all developed countries will have vaccinated their populations that it will no longer particularly matter who managed to get there first. The final death totals are likely to be just as important - and lasting in terms of impact.
    about that "within a few months"....
  • It would be typical of Boris if he built a tunnel from Scotland to Northern Ireland, and by the time it was finished, it linked two independent countries in the EU.

    "two independent countries in the EU"?

    No country in the EU is independent.
    Apart from being independent enough to decide whether they want to be in the EU or not.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    justin124 said:

    I have just read David Herdson's excellent article on this May's elections. Much of it I do agree with - though I think it is stretching things a bit to view elections held less than 17 months beyond the previous GE as 'midterm', particularly in the context of normal party politics having been in abeyance since March 2020. The polls suggest that the Tories have recovered to roughly how things stood in early Autumn of last year - a steady lead but still well down on the stratospheric poll leads of March/April 2020. I must also point out that the Tories performed well in the County Council elections of April 1961 - and the Urban and City Council elections held a month later. A year later Macmillan's government had become unpopular and the Tories went on to lose in 1964.

    I think we'd all be disappointed if you didn't point out political parallels from a time before the Beatles released their first song... :wink:
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    If only the founding fathers had known that 52-48 is a “clear majority”
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    I have just read David Herdson's excellent article on this May's elections. Much of it I do agree with - though I think it is stretching things a bit to view elections held less than 17 months beyond the previous GE as 'midterm', particularly in the context of normal party politics having been in abeyance since March 2020. The polls suggest that the Tories have recovered to roughly how things stood in early Autumn of last year - a steady lead but still well down on the stratospheric poll leads of March/April 2020. I must also point out that the Tories performed well in the County Council elections of April 1961 - and the Urban and City Council elections held a month later. A year later Macmillan's government had become unpopular and the Tories went on to lose in 1964.

    I think we'd all be disappointed if you didn't point out political parallels from a time before the Beatles released their first song... :wink:
    I was too young to remember those elections - but have studied them .We were marginally closer to 'midterm' in April/May 1961 than will be the case in early May this year. Your point is?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I have just read David Herdson's excellent article on this May's elections. Much of it I do agree with - though I think it is stretching things a bit to view elections held less than 17 months beyond the previous GE as 'midterm', particularly in the context of normal party politics having been in abeyance since March 2020. The polls suggest that the Tories have recovered to roughly how things stood in early Autumn of last year - a steady lead but still well down on the stratospheric poll leads of March/April 2020. I must also point out that the Tories performed well in the County Council elections of April 1961 - and the Urban and City Council elections held a month later. A year later Macmillan's government had become unpopular and the Tories went on to lose in 1964.

    I think we'd all be disappointed if you didn't point out political parallels from a time before the Beatles released their first song... :wink:
    I was too young to remember those elections - but have studied them .We were marginally closer to 'midterm' in April/May 1961 than will be the case in early May this year. Your point is?
    That it's so far back in time it has absolutely zero bearing on what will happen now?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I have just read David Herdson's excellent article on this May's elections. Much of it I do agree with - though I think it is stretching things a bit to view elections held less than 17 months beyond the previous GE as 'midterm', particularly in the context of normal party politics having been in abeyance since March 2020. The polls suggest that the Tories have recovered to roughly how things stood in early Autumn of last year - a steady lead but still well down on the stratospheric poll leads of March/April 2020. I must also point out that the Tories performed well in the County Council elections of April 1961 - and the Urban and City Council elections held a month later. A year later Macmillan's government had become unpopular and the Tories went on to lose in 1964.

    I think we'd all be disappointed if you didn't point out political parallels from a time before the Beatles released their first song... :wink:
    I was too young to remember those elections - but have studied them .We were marginally closer to 'midterm' in April/May 1961 than will be the case in early May this year. Your point is?
    That it's so far back in time it has absolutely zero bearing on what will happen now?
    But 'midterm' unpopularity was as obvious back then as it is today. In March 1962 the Tories lost Orpington to the Liberals - and a further three seats to Labour at by elections that year. Moreover , the Television Age had arrived by that time too.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    justin124 said:

    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I have just read David Herdson's excellent article on this May's elections. Much of it I do agree with - though I think it is stretching things a bit to view elections held less than 17 months beyond the previous GE as 'midterm', particularly in the context of normal party politics having been in abeyance since March 2020. The polls suggest that the Tories have recovered to roughly how things stood in early Autumn of last year - a steady lead but still well down on the stratospheric poll leads of March/April 2020. I must also point out that the Tories performed well in the County Council elections of April 1961 - and the Urban and City Council elections held a month later. A year later Macmillan's government had become unpopular and the Tories went on to lose in 1964.

    I think we'd all be disappointed if you didn't point out political parallels from a time before the Beatles released their first song... :wink:
    I was too young to remember those elections - but have studied them .We were marginally closer to 'midterm' in April/May 1961 than will be the case in early May this year. Your point is?
    That it's so far back in time it has absolutely zero bearing on what will happen now?
    But 'midterm' unpopularity was as obvious back then as it is today. In March 1962 the Tories lost Orpington to the Liberals - and a further three seats to Labour at by elections that year. Moreover , the Television Age had arrived by that time too.
    The fortunes of the governing party in each parliament are different. The fact you have to go back almost sixty years proves my point, doesn't it?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533

    Floater said:
    Yes, it's Opinium.

    They also asked: "Do you think a Labour government led by Keir Starmer would have done a better or worse job at slowing the spread of coronavirus?

    Better 31%
    Worse 20%

    However, as all the news is now dominated by the vaccine rollout, Johnson is at present able to get away with his wider failings on Covid by virtue of being seen to have succeeded with the vaccine.
    It's better to win the fourth lap than the first three. No-one remembers who was winning at the bell.
    What's striking in all these findings is the number who say dunno/much the same. It's what I'm also picking up in phone canvassing - most people see the pandemic as apolitical, and aren't inclined to change their votes over it. Johnson certainly benefits from the issue being the only game in town and always having something reportable to say about it (that, rather than a vaccine bonus, is what's helping the Tory vote), but I'll be surprised if it ends up being hugely beneficial to either side, even after the inquiry.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited February 2021
    HYUFD said:
    Simple and straightforward. He whipped them up. He told them to come. He told them to march. For the express purpose of preventing the certification of his opponent's win. He'd angered them so much with lies violence was emminently possible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Old Tone back again with more suggestions....is he thinking of coming back into politics?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9257783/TONY-BLAIR-world-needs-agree-form-Covid-passport-Britain-lead-way.html

    He's already come back, as he now often makes policy suggestions which are taken somewhat seriously rather than people just reflexively mentioning Iraq or telling him to shut his trap.

    But a man who names his post politics think tank the 'Tony Blair Institute' is probably not inclined to drag himself down into the muck of parliamentary politics, and its at least part time local focus, rather than focus on himself.
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