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What should Britain do with any excess vaccines – the Referendum divide – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited February 11 in General
imageWhat should Britain do with any excess vaccines – the Referendum divide – politicalbetting.com

New polling from Ipsos finds a significant Brexit divide on what Britain should do about any surplus of vaccine that it night find it has. For those who voted Remain in 2016 are markedly more likely to want to share any excess vaccines with 66% saying the UK should pass on some of its extra doses.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • First.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 30,311
    Second like Ireland
  • We should give them to the French speaking countries of the world in exchange for them making English their first language.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,275
    No surprises to see here that Leavers are, on balance, more likely to be selfish, aged incels.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950

    We should give them to the French speaking countries of the world in exchange for them making English their first language.

    Didn't Rwanda go down that route, in respect of official languages?
  • A £27bn expansion of England’s road network has been thrown into doubt after documents showed the transport secretary, Grant Shapps, overrode official advice to review the policy on environmental grounds, the Guardian can reveal.

    It has been a legal requirement to take into account the environmental impact of such projects since 2014. Shapps appears to have pressed ahead despite the advice of civil servants in his own department.

    The details are set out in court papers that form part of a legal challenge to the policy, which was described by the chancellor, Rishi Sunak, last March as the country’s “largest ever” roadbuilding programme.

    Lawyers for the campaign group Transport Action Network (TAN) have sought a judicial review of the strategy to develop road projects nationwide, including the Stonehenge tunnel, the A46 Newark bypass and the Lower Thames Crossing.

    According to high court filings seen by the Guardian, evidence that Shapps had decided to override Whitehall advice to review the 2014 national policy statement on national networks (NPS) was disclosed at the 11th hour to the claimants.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/11/27bn-roads-plan-doubt-shapps-overrode-official-advice
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,667


    Big surprise the Oxford number is so low. At that rate would take 3 years to get our 100m doses from them, so hopefully means there is a big jump in capacity coming (presumably soon given the suggestion they'd deliver in full in H1)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    It seems on the whole that people agreed vaccines should be shared, but there is disagreement as to when is the right moment.

    But when it comes to if we have a surplus, will there not possibly be a point where our supplies and delivery will be at such a level above our capacity to vaccinate, that we could, in essence, provide some amount to other nations without slowing our domestic vaccination programme?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,200
    Don't these things have a shelf-life? In reality this decision probably won't actually come about in quite the way the question suggests.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 52,262
    maaarsh said:



    Big surprise the Oxford number is so low. At that rate would take 3 years to get our 100m doses from them, so hopefully means there is a big jump in capacity coming (presumably soon given the suggestion they'd deliver in full in H1)
    Also puts the EU's whining into context.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,858
    kle4 said:

    We should give them to the French speaking countries of the world in exchange for them making English their first language.

    Didn't Rwanda go down that route, in respect of official languages?
    Yes, and it joined the Commonwealth for good measure.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950

    A £27bn expansion of England’s road network has been thrown into doubt after documents showed the transport secretary, Grant Shapps, overrode official advice to review the policy on environmental grounds, the Guardian can reveal.

    It has been a legal requirement to take into account the environmental impact of such projects since 2014. Shapps appears to have pressed ahead despite the advice of civil servants in his own department.

    The details are set out in court papers that form part of a legal challenge to the policy, which was described by the chancellor, Rishi Sunak, last March as the country’s “largest ever” roadbuilding programme.

    Lawyers for the campaign group Transport Action Network (TAN) have sought a judicial review of the strategy to develop road projects nationwide, including the Stonehenge tunnel, the A46 Newark bypass and the Lower Thames Crossing.

    According to high court filings seen by the Guardian, evidence that Shapps had decided to override Whitehall advice to review the 2014 national policy statement on national networks (NPS) was disclosed at the 11th hour to the claimants.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/11/27bn-roads-plan-doubt-shapps-overrode-official-advice

    Presumably Ministers are allowed to override advice, or it is not advice at all, so I assume it's a question of whether overriding was done in the right way, taking account of the things required to be taken into account.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950

    DougSeal said:

    Probably:

    When will the new border rules be lifted?
    Matt Hancock refused to answer - and twice hinted it could be as late as the Autumn.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/hotel-quarantine-rules-full-10000-23485268

    I really do not understand the need for instant gratification. The country, as well as the globe, is suffering from an illness. Whatever Contrarian's demented views on the subject it takes as long as it takes to get better. Based on today's figures we are amost back (fingers crossed) to where we were last Autumn but with a vaccine in our pockets. We still obsess on this site about a referendum that took place 5 years ago as if it were yesterday. What's 9 months?
    A lot.

    I believe 20% of the population have contemplated suicide during the pandemic.

    I myself, normally of an even, unexcitable temperament, am now struggling to maintain my spirits after nearly a year under some kind of restriction plus ongoing financial and family stress.

    9 months is a lot.
    I agree with you on this point, though I do also wonder how any estimate of those contemplating suicide is arrived at.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,474

    No surprises to see here that Leavers are, on balance, more likely to be selfish, aged incels.

    Has it occurred to you that your ongoing stress and self confessed depressions are making your comments somewhat too bitter? It's not good for you, all this bile and contempt.

    And I sympathise on the moodiness. I've had very dark days myself, as I described on here some time ago
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,275
    edited February 11
    Leon said:

    No surprises to see here that Leavers are, on balance, more likely to be selfish, aged incels.

    Has it occurred to you that your ongoing stress and self confessed depressions are making your comments somewhat too bitter? It's not good for you, all this bile and contempt.

    And I sympathise on the moodiness. I've had very dark days myself, as I described on here some time ago
    Well that “incels” post of mine, at least, was posted with an evil smirk. Hah.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 4,428

    DougSeal said:

    Probably:

    When will the new border rules be lifted?
    Matt Hancock refused to answer - and twice hinted it could be as late as the Autumn.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/hotel-quarantine-rules-full-10000-23485268

    I really do not understand the need for instant gratification. The country, as well as the globe, is suffering from an illness. Whatever Contrarian's demented views on the subject it takes as long as it takes to get better. Based on today's figures we are amost back (fingers crossed) to where we were last Autumn but with a vaccine in our pockets. We still obsess on this site about a referendum that took place 5 years ago as if it were yesterday. What's 9 months?
    A lot.

    I believe 20% of the population have contemplated suicide during the pandemic.

    I myself, normally of an even, unexcitable temperament, am now struggling to maintain my spirits after nearly a year under some kind of restriction plus ongoing financial and family stress.

    9 months is a lot.
    I'm sorry to hear that. Anyone who followed my posts on here last Spring will know that I was suffering psychologically too and I know it's incredibly tough. But I didn't express myself well in the post. Carlotta's post referred to external border restrictions. I do not know what will happen to internal restrictions but if life starts to resemble some form of normality by the time border restrictions are relaxed then that, to me, would be a great result.

    Nine more months of not even being able to go to the next county, let alone the next country, I agree is horrible to contemplate.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 40,118
    As soon as I saw this poll (with a very modest difference) I knew OGH would write a thread header on it!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,156
    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 40,118
    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    This is true. It just needs time and the present generation of politicians to pass.

    Eventually, real politik will win through - which means pragmatic win-win cooperation based on mutual respect and not pwnage.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,275
    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    I have come to the conclusion that the U.K. will *always* be hostile to the EU, against its best interests, through sheer pettiness, spite and jealousy.

    The EU’s animus towards the U.K. is probably more of a temporary phenomenon caused by embarrassment and fear. It will be easier for them to “be reasonable” because the U.K. is just less important to them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    edited February 11

    A £27bn expansion of England’s road network has been thrown into doubt after documents showed the transport secretary, Grant Shapps, overrode official advice to review the policy on environmental grounds, the Guardian can reveal.

    It has been a legal requirement to take into account the environmental impact of such projects since 2014. Shapps appears to have pressed ahead despite the advice of civil servants in his own department.

    The details are set out in court papers that form part of a legal challenge to the policy, which was described by the chancellor, Rishi Sunak, last March as the country’s “largest ever” roadbuilding programme.

    Lawyers for the campaign group Transport Action Network (TAN) have sought a judicial review of the strategy to develop road projects nationwide, including the Stonehenge tunnel, the A46 Newark bypass and the Lower Thames Crossing.

    According to high court filings seen by the Guardian, evidence that Shapps had decided to override Whitehall advice to review the 2014 national policy statement on national networks (NPS) was disclosed at the 11th hour to the claimants.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/11/27bn-roads-plan-doubt-shapps-overrode-official-advice

    Transport Action Network are essentially a bunch of NIMBYs with massive egos and small brains. They are opposed to building roads even though unless they are actually as stupid as they come across they must know congestion causes more pollution than new roads. They are probably correct that Shapps decided to set aside advice - because when has he ever listened to advice? - but we shouldn’t pay undue attention to their views. If it wasn’t this, they would have found some other reason to object. They are like StopHS2 with slightly better lawyers.

    Edit - speaking of which, I note the HS2 extension to Crewe received Royal Assent today.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 6,378
    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    Yes, Peter Roebuck's phrase about Ian Botham springs to mind: 'Warm in friendship; ugly in enmity.' Even if you're not a dreamy europhile, the cold hard calculations of realpolitik would have told you this was Brexit's likely outcome. I suspect a future government of whatever stripe will be able to rebuild bridges, but it won't happen under Boris or perhaps even his Tory successor. There will be some cold, dark years to come.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,474
    These things are amazing. Like God, doodling

  • Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    India and Pakistan say hello.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,534
    Perhaps there is more data - I haven't looked, but the figures given don't quite prove the point which they obviously seem to make.

    It is perfectly possible that older responders are more likely to have a self centred view (sadly) and that older responders are more likely to be Brexiteers (I rather think that is true).

    Which would mean that the figures could turn out as they do even though there is no significant difference between the opinions of the groups, they are just differently weighted for age. Call for Tim Harford.
  • As soon as I saw this poll (with a very modest difference) I knew OGH would write a thread header on it!

    Unprecedented for OGH to do threads on polls.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 4,428
    maaarsh said:



    Big surprise the Oxford number is so low. At that rate would take 3 years to get our 100m doses from them, so hopefully means there is a big jump in capacity coming (presumably soon given the suggestion they'd deliver in full in H1)
    It also suggests that the over 70s have mostly got Pfizer which is, er, what the French, Germans et al have imposed in their jurisdictions, meaning we are in the same place, but quicker.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    I have come to the conclusion that the U.K. will *always* be hostile to the EU, against its best interests, through sheer pettiness, spite and jealousy.

    The EU’s animus towards the U.K. is probably more of a temporary phenomenon caused by embarrassment and fear. It will be easier for them to “be reasonable” because the U.K. is just less important to them.
    At this moment they seem to have inherited a sort of inversion of the old Eurosceptic trait of blaming the UK for their own stupid fuckups, presumably because it’s easier than admitting they’re just a bunch of incompetent losers with reading comprehension issues.

    Which under other circumstances would be an amusing irony, but doesn’t suggest they will be grown up about a future relationship. If they consider us a convenient scapegoat in the medium term, that will poison things further.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,474
    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    But we're not hostile in the same way. Sure some loonies want the EU to meltdown, but most Brits want to live and let live, trade freely, travel happily, they don't want Europeans to get poorer or suffer political crises or whatever

    Yet that is, I believe, the attitude now of many senior EU officials and politicians towards the UK. For the sake of The Project, the UK must fail, and if that means Britons suffering, tough shit

    Fuck 'em, then
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 35,772
    tlg86 said:

    Don't these things have a shelf-life? In reality this decision probably won't actually come about in quite the way the question suggests.

    By the time the UK is done, the EU will have plenty of vaccines, so this is a stupid question.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,275

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    Yes, Peter Roebuck's phrase about Ian Botham springs to mind: 'Warm in friendship; ugly in enmity.' Even if you're not a dreamy europhile, the cold hard calculations of realpolitik would have told you this was Brexit's likely outcome. I suspect a future government of whatever stripe will be able to rebuild bridges, but it won't happen under Boris or perhaps even his Tory successor. There will be some cold, dark years to come.
    The breakdown in relationship, if not hostility, between the U.K. and the EU was indeed entirely predictable.

    Of course when it was predicted, Brexiters pooh-poohed and said they loved Europe, hated the EU etc. Possibly true, but butters no parsnips in a trade dispute.

    I now believe this hostility will actually be permanent, due to the U.K. being a big sooky-baba.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,534
    Stella Creasey also dodged the question on Radio 4 today. She ought to know really. She's really nice, a woman and, God bless her, has a baby on the way - which means, being an old fashioned man, to me she is beyond criticism.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 4,428

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    India and Pakistan say hello.
    Pakistan a democratic entity? Well, mostly. But '58, '77 and '99 called and asked not to be forgotten. India's come close but never quite lost it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,474

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    Yes, Peter Roebuck's phrase about Ian Botham springs to mind: 'Warm in friendship; ugly in enmity.' Even if you're not a dreamy europhile, the cold hard calculations of realpolitik would have told you this was Brexit's likely outcome. I suspect a future government of whatever stripe will be able to rebuild bridges, but it won't happen under Boris or perhaps even his Tory successor. There will be some cold, dark years to come.
    The breakdown in relationship, if not hostility, between the U.K. and the EU was indeed entirely predictable.

    Of course when it was predicted, Brexiters pooh-poohed and said they loved Europe, hated the EU etc. Possibly true, but butters no parsnips in a trade dispute.

    I now believe this hostility will actually be permanent, due to the U.K. being a big sooky-baba.
    Yes, it is always OUR fault and OUR stupidity and OUR childishness, never theirs. It's so dull. Shut the F up
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,068
    maaarsh said:


    Big surprise the Oxford number is so low. At that rate would take 3 years to get our 100m doses from them, so hopefully means there is a big jump in capacity coming (presumably soon given the suggestion they'd deliver in full in H1)

    Although it's about ten days out of date, since when we've jabbed another 4.2 million or so, of which I suspect the majority were AZ.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    India and Pakistan say hello.
    Pakistan a democratic entity? Well, mostly. But '58, '77 and '99 called and asked not to be forgotten. India's come close but never quite lost it.
    Indira Gandhi?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,926
    UK cases by specimen date

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,926
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K population

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,926
    UK Local R

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  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,156

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    I have come to the conclusion that the U.K. will *always* be hostile to the EU, against its best interests, through sheer pettiness, spite and jealousy.

    The EU’s animus towards the U.K. is probably more of a temporary phenomenon caused by embarrassment and fear. It will be easier for them to “be reasonable” because the U.K. is just less important to them.
    As I said on the previous thread, I don't think the EU is particularly reasonable, nor does it expect either the UK or themselves to be so. This matters because the UK is trying to say, you EU, and you all the 27 member states, should want something different from what you do want. Rather than the UK dealing with the EU as it actually is. The EU can have asks, reasonable or unreasonable, but if the UK doesn't want to play ball there is no agreement on those asks. The same the other way. If the UK doesn't get something it wants, it didn't make a compelling enough offer. No point blaming the other side. Maybe blame Frost for being such a shit negotiator.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,926
    UK cases summary

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 18,664
    edited February 11
    PT -
    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is the problematic quote afaics:

    Jews were beaten in the streets, not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors … even by children,” the report said quoting the post.

    “Because history is edited, most people today don’t realize that to get to the point where Nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views.”

    IMV hating someone is hating someone. It doesn't really matter why.

    But on the left it is totemic that motive matters more than action. (cf the higher sentences for racist/sexuality motivated crimes in the UK vs generic crimes)
    Mens Rea has been part of criminal law for a very long time I think. The motive makes the crime in many cases, not just those involving hate.
    Yes, but I was thinking not of Mens Rea, but the fact that you have a higher sentence for beating up a black or gay person (as a hate crime) vs beating up someone because they just happen to be in the area.

    For me it's the beating up that is the crime that needs punishing, not the "why".
    So, take the Stephen Lawrence murder. For you the racist motivation adds not a jot to the weight of the crime?
    No. A black man's life is worth the same as a white man's life (or a man, or woman, of any other colour).

    A murder should be punished as such.

    Of course, the parole board, in due course, will need to consider the probability of reoffending and might come to a different view at that time.
    So consider it thus. The Stephen Lawrence murder involved 2 crimes. The first one was just that - murder. The second one was violating in the most evil way imaginable the very principle you set out here. That a black man's life is worth the same as a white man's. This is the aggravating factor.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,275
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    Yes, Peter Roebuck's phrase about Ian Botham springs to mind: 'Warm in friendship; ugly in enmity.' Even if you're not a dreamy europhile, the cold hard calculations of realpolitik would have told you this was Brexit's likely outcome. I suspect a future government of whatever stripe will be able to rebuild bridges, but it won't happen under Boris or perhaps even his Tory successor. There will be some cold, dark years to come.
    The breakdown in relationship, if not hostility, between the U.K. and the EU was indeed entirely predictable.

    Of course when it was predicted, Brexiters pooh-poohed and said they loved Europe, hated the EU etc. Possibly true, but butters no parsnips in a trade dispute.

    I now believe this hostility will actually be permanent, due to the U.K. being a big sooky-baba.
    Yes, it is always OUR fault and OUR stupidity and OUR childishness, never theirs. It's so dull. Shut the F up
    My earlier post explains why I think it might be the UK’s “fault” although I wouldn’t use that term exactly.

    Yes, I know you’re riddled with guilt for voting the country up the river but it’s not too late for enlightenment.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,926
    UK hospitals

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,926
    UK deaths

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,474

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    Yes, Peter Roebuck's phrase about Ian Botham springs to mind: 'Warm in friendship; ugly in enmity.' Even if you're not a dreamy europhile, the cold hard calculations of realpolitik would have told you this was Brexit's likely outcome. I suspect a future government of whatever stripe will be able to rebuild bridges, but it won't happen under Boris or perhaps even his Tory successor. There will be some cold, dark years to come.
    The breakdown in relationship, if not hostility, between the U.K. and the EU was indeed entirely predictable.

    Of course when it was predicted, Brexiters pooh-poohed and said they loved Europe, hated the EU etc. Possibly true, but butters no parsnips in a trade dispute.

    I now believe this hostility will actually be permanent, due to the U.K. being a big sooky-baba.
    Yes, it is always OUR fault and OUR stupidity and OUR childishness, never theirs. It's so dull. Shut the F up
    My earlier post explains why I think it might be the UK’s “fault” although I wouldn’t use that term exactly.

    Yes, I know you’re riddled with guilt for voting the country up the river but it’s not too late for enlightenment.
    I TOLD you to shut up. Quite clearly, in my prior comment. I therefore do not understand your continued posting?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,926
    UK R

    From case data

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    From hospitalisation data

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  • DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    India and Pakistan say hello.
    Pakistan a democratic entity? Well, mostly. But '58, '77 and '99 called and asked not to be forgotten. India's come close but never quite lost it.
    Well even during the points when Pakistan has been a democracy wanting India to fail is a unifying force.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,275
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    Yes, Peter Roebuck's phrase about Ian Botham springs to mind: 'Warm in friendship; ugly in enmity.' Even if you're not a dreamy europhile, the cold hard calculations of realpolitik would have told you this was Brexit's likely outcome. I suspect a future government of whatever stripe will be able to rebuild bridges, but it won't happen under Boris or perhaps even his Tory successor. There will be some cold, dark years to come.
    The breakdown in relationship, if not hostility, between the U.K. and the EU was indeed entirely predictable.

    Of course when it was predicted, Brexiters pooh-poohed and said they loved Europe, hated the EU etc. Possibly true, but butters no parsnips in a trade dispute.

    I now believe this hostility will actually be permanent, due to the U.K. being a big sooky-baba.
    Yes, it is always OUR fault and OUR stupidity and OUR childishness, never theirs. It's so dull. Shut the F up
    My earlier post explains why I think it might be the UK’s “fault” although I wouldn’t use that term exactly.

    Yes, I know you’re riddled with guilt for voting the country up the river but it’s not too late for enlightenment.
    I TOLD you to shut up. Quite clearly, in my prior comment. I therefore do not understand your continued posting?
    Lol.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,926
    Age related data

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  • Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    But we're not hostile in the same way. Sure some loonies want the EU to meltdown, but most Brits want to live and let live, trade freely, travel happily, they don't want Europeans to get poorer or suffer political crises or whatever

    Yet that is, I believe, the attitude now of many senior EU officials and politicians towards the UK. For the sake of The Project, the UK must fail, and if that means Britons suffering, tough shit

    Fuck 'em, then
    Question is- does the EU actively want to put boulders in the way because we're the UK and we've left? Or is it that they have no intention of lifting a finger to help us?

    The first would be bad, and an act of aggression, but the second would be "You wanted to be treated as a separate entity? Welcome to Big School." Not nice, but inevitable. Realpolitik isn't nice.

    Basically, anyone who thought that "old boy dining rights" were a thing was a naive fool. And we should note that hardly anyone in Europe is either arguing for kinder treatment of the UK, or to follow our example.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,926
    UK vaccinations

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,474

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    India and Pakistan say hello.
    Pakistan a democratic entity? Well, mostly. But '58, '77 and '99 called and asked not to be forgotten. India's come close but never quite lost it.
    Well even during the points when Pakistan has been a democracy wanting India to fail is a unifying force.
    But even Pak and India don't take steps to try injure the other's economy, do they? Genuine Q - I don't know the history that well, tho I know there is much rivalry and military bristling.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    But we're not hostile in the same way. Sure some loonies want the EU to meltdown, but most Brits want to live and let live, trade freely, travel happily, they don't want Europeans to get poorer or suffer political crises or whatever

    Yet that is, I believe, the attitude now of many senior EU officials and politicians towards the UK. For the sake of The Project, the UK must fail, and if that means Britons suffering, tough shit

    Fuck 'em, then
    Question is- does the EU actively want to put boulders in the way because we're the UK and we've left? Or is it that they have no intention of lifting a finger to help us?

    The first would be bad, and an act of aggression, but the second would be "You wanted to be treated as a separate entity? Welcome to Big School." Not nice, but inevitable. Realpolitik isn't nice.

    Basically, anyone who thought that "old boy dining rights" were a thing was a naive fool. And we should note that hardly anyone in Europe is either arguing for kinder treatment of the UK, or to follow our example.

    Has to be said, their recent hysterical behaviour over inter alia vaccines strongly suggests the first.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,068

    Age related data

    That steep fall in the 85+ group in the last few days (both for admissions and for cases), relative to the other age bands, is beginning to look as though the vaccine effect might be starting to show up.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 985

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    Yes, Peter Roebuck's phrase about Ian Botham springs to mind: 'Warm in friendship; ugly in enmity.' Even if you're not a dreamy europhile, the cold hard calculations of realpolitik would have told you this was Brexit's likely outcome. I suspect a future government of whatever stripe will be able to rebuild bridges, but it won't happen under Boris or perhaps even his Tory successor. There will be some cold, dark years to come.
    The breakdown in relationship, if not hostility, between the U.K. and the EU was indeed entirely predictable.

    Of course when it was predicted, Brexiters pooh-poohed and said they loved Europe, hated the EU etc. Possibly true, but butters no parsnips in a trade dispute.

    I now believe this hostility will actually be permanent, due to the U.K. being a big sooky-baba.
    Yes, it is always OUR fault and OUR stupidity and OUR childishness, never theirs. It's so dull. Shut the F up
    My earlier post explains why I think it might be the UK’s “fault” although I wouldn’t use that term exactly.

    Yes, I know you’re riddled with guilt for voting the country up the river but it’s not too late for enlightenment.
    Oh dear.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,068
    ydoethur said:

    Has to be said, their recent hysterical behaviour over inter alia vaccines strongly suggests the first.

    No, the vaccines response was because they knew they had screwed up in a matter of the highest importance.
  • Seems the vast majority of the public have decided not to book holidays

    It is just common sense

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,953
    edited February 11
    maaarsh said:



    Big surprise the Oxford number is so low. At that rate would take 3 years to get our 100m doses from them, so hopefully means there is a big jump in capacity coming (presumably soon given the suggestion they'd deliver in full in H1)
    3m AZN....but we were promised 30m by now...the EU must have stolen them....we need to threaten to sue them.

    Makes the EC claims about all that redirected supply even more ridiculous.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    ydoethur said:

    Has to be said, their recent hysterical behaviour over inter alia vaccines strongly suggests the first.

    No, the vaccines response was because they knew they had screwed up in a matter of the highest importance.
    Why blame us for it though? That wasn’t necessary. Nor was their peculiar decision to become the first side to break the Northern Ireland protocol.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,156
    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    But we're not hostile in the same way. Sure some loonies want the EU to meltdown, but most Brits want to live and let live, trade freely, travel happily, they don't want Europeans to get poorer or suffer political crises or whatever

    Yet that is, I believe, the attitude now of many senior EU officials and politicians towards the UK. For the sake of The Project, the UK must fail, and if that means Britons suffering, tough shit

    Fuck 'em, then
    If they do think that, fair enough. I think they would express it as Donald Tusk, I think, did. "It's not in the interest of the EU to protect the UK from the consequences of its decision to leave the European Union". Which is pretty much what the letter from Virgin Media said, when I cancelled my subscription, albeit in different words.

    In any case, the UK government is letting the EU somewhat off the hook by making the effects of Brexit worse than they need to be
  • Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    India and Pakistan say hello.
    Pakistan a democratic entity? Well, mostly. But '58, '77 and '99 called and asked not to be forgotten. India's come close but never quite lost it.
    Well even during the points when Pakistan has been a democracy wanting India to fail is a unifying force.
    But even Pak and India don't take steps to try injure the other's economy, do they? Genuine Q - I don't know the history that well, tho I know there is much rivalry and military bristling.

    They do.

    Prime Minister Imran Khan, while completely ruling out any prospects for resumption of dialogue with the fascist Modi-led government, said India was trying to bankrupt Pakistan and push it into the blacklist of the Financial Action Task Force (FATF).

    https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/526487-india-hell-bent-on-bankrupting-pakistan-imran
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,275
    Let’s be clear, the EU *is* now our competitor and we are going to have to use every trick in the book to find alternative ways of sourcing the income we unceremoniously pissed away.

    The EU will not help us in the endeavour.
    And we will stay very angry with them, and lo, they shall remain the favourite whipping boy of the right wing press.
  • eekeek Posts: 11,026
    edited February 11

    Nominative Determinism Of The Week:

    Dealing with urinary tract issues for the Royal Devon and Exeter NHS Foundation Trust, consultant urologist... Nicholas Burns-Cox!

    More interestingly from the same source - The economic model of the 2 new 24 hour TV news channels make as much sense to PB as they do to me.

    And that PB knows rather more than I do about the media industry.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 13,996
    maaarsh said:



    Big surprise the Oxford number is so low. At that rate would take 3 years to get our 100m doses from them, so hopefully means there is a big jump in capacity coming (presumably soon given the suggestion they'd deliver in full in H1)
    Should also mean things get faster as more comes on stream, due to the greater portability of OXAZN.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,953
    edited February 11
    Vaccine roll out even more impressive, that able to do so many when 70% were Pfizer, which is much more of a pain in the ass in terms of delivery and the fact you have to have every person wait 15 mins afterwards.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,275

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    I have come to the conclusion that the U.K. will *always* be hostile to the EU, against its best interests, through sheer pettiness, spite and jealousy.

    The EU’s animus towards the U.K. is probably more of a temporary phenomenon caused by embarrassment and fear. It will be easier for them to “be reasonable” because the U.K. is just less important to them.
    I think this is wrong. For there to be a major democratic state in Europe that's completely outside the EU will be seen as a permanent threat to their legitimacy. This effect has been somewhat masked because during the negotiations they were able to paint the UK as a country led by buffoons making a self-inflicted mistake, but the reaction to the UK's better performance on vaccines shows the underlying dynamics more clearly.
    I tend to think this is a more temporary phenomenon, and like Nabavi says, because UvdL fucked up right royally.

    But you could be right.

    It depends on how well or otherwise we do economically.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 35,772
    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    The EU wants Brexit to be a failure, partly due to their insecurities, partly to encourage the others... and partly too, because they think that the UK now wants the EU to fail.

    Peter Bone doesn't get much publicity here: but in the EU they see a member of Parliament of the ruling party calling for the EU to collapse. That is a story, and it gets peoples' backs up just as much there as "punishment beatings" lines from German MEPs get backs up here.

    And then there are things like the EU having an Embassy and an Ambassador. The EU says "hang on, pretty much everywhere else allows us representation, and the UK says f*ck off".

    It reminds me a little of a friend of a friend, who changed their name to something utterly absurd. Lots of my friends, said "fuck that, that's really stupid. I'm not changing what I call them". And I said "it doesn't cost me anything, and it's important to them, so I'll call them what they want to be called."

    So, yeah, the EU is behaving badly. But this is a co-created relationship.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,200

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    I have come to the conclusion that the U.K. will *always* be hostile to the EU, against its best interests, through sheer pettiness, spite and jealousy.

    The EU’s animus towards the U.K. is probably more of a temporary phenomenon caused by embarrassment and fear. It will be easier for them to “be reasonable” because the U.K. is just less important to them.
    I think this is wrong. For there to be a major democratic state in Europe that's completely outside the EU will be seen as a permanent threat to their legitimacy. This effect has been somewhat masked because during the negotiations they were able to paint the UK as a country led by buffoons making a self-inflicted mistake, but the reaction to the UK's better performance on vaccines shows the underlying dynamics more clearly.
    You have really proven yourself to be one of the best posters on here in the last couple of weeks.

    For me, the issue of Brexit was more to do with us than them. Our politicians weren't prepared to alter our way of life (i.e. welfare state) to adapt to the FoM in the EU.

    I would like to see the EU become a federal state with the politicians running the EU accountable to the people. But I don't think the domestic politicians will ever allow it.
  • ydoethur said:

    Has to be said, their recent hysterical behaviour over inter alia vaccines strongly suggests the first.

    No, the vaccines response was because they knew they had screwed up in a matter of the highest importance.
    And, although we'll never know, I would not be shocked if there was a gap between what salesmen told the EU Commission and the contractual reality. Not a lie, of course, but incomplete truths, and enough for the EU to be justified in their pissed-offness.

    (Simplest explanation of the events is that the EU simply didn't anticipate the details of the Hancock Contact, so didn't ask the right question. And AZ understandably didn't tell.)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 13,996
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    The EU wants Brexit to be a failure, partly due to their insecurities, partly to encourage the others... and partly too, because they think that the UK now wants the EU to fail.

    Peter Bone doesn't get much publicity here: but in the EU they see a member of Parliament of the ruling party calling for the EU to collapse. That is a story, and it gets peoples' backs up just as much there as "punishment beatings" lines from German MEPs get backs up here.

    And then there are things like the EU having an Embassy and an Ambassador. The EU says "hang on, pretty much everywhere else allows us representation, and the UK says f*ck off".

    It reminds me a little of a friend of a friend, who changed their name to something utterly absurd. Lots of my friends, said "fuck that, that's really stupid. I'm not changing what I call them". And I said "it doesn't cost me anything, and it's important to them, so I'll call them what they want to be called."

    So, yeah, the EU is behaving badly. But this is a co-created relationship.
    Good points.

    I wasn't sure why we refused to recognise their embassy - the only sensible reason I could think was that we wished to keep it back in to get some small benefit in return when we do give it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 25,697
    Leon said:

    No surprises to see here that Leavers are, on balance, more likely to be selfish, aged incels.

    Has it occurred to you that your ongoing stress and self confessed depressions are making your comments somewhat too bitter? It's not good for you, all this bile and contempt.

    Are we distinguishing between a considered decision that bilious contempt is the correct response to the degradation, despair and general wanker-filled state of the world, and gassing up on Chianti and spraying abuse at all and sundry?
  • ydoethur said:

    Has to be said, their recent hysterical behaviour over inter alia vaccines strongly suggests the first.

    No, the vaccines response was because they knew they had screwed up in a matter of the highest importance.
    No, it was a mix of both.

    Had it been a case of Israel and the USA being ahead of the EU then they wouldn't have batted an eyelid at that.

    The reason they were so furious isn't just that they screwed up - but to add insult to injury the UK didn't. That's what makes it so painful for them.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,275
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    The EU wants Brexit to be a failure, partly due to their insecurities, partly to encourage the others... and partly too, because they think that the UK now wants the EU to fail.

    Peter Bone doesn't get much publicity here: but in the EU they see a member of Parliament of the ruling party calling for the EU to collapse. That is a story, and it gets peoples' backs up just as much there as "punishment beatings" lines from German MEPs get backs up here.

    And then there are things like the EU having an Embassy and an Ambassador. The EU says "hang on, pretty much everywhere else allows us representation, and the UK says f*ck off".

    It reminds me a little of a friend of a friend, who changed their name to something utterly absurd. Lots of my friends, said "fuck that, that's really stupid. I'm not changing what I call them". And I said "it doesn't cost me anything, and it's important to them, so I'll call them what they want to be called."

    So, yeah, the EU is behaving badly. But this is a co-created relationship.
    Did your friend of a friend call himself “Leon the Flint Knapper”?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 25,697

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    India and Pakistan say hello.
    Scotland and rUK shake fists angrily from the future.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,275

    Leon said:

    No surprises to see here that Leavers are, on balance, more likely to be selfish, aged incels.

    Has it occurred to you that your ongoing stress and self confessed depressions are making your comments somewhat too bitter? It's not good for you, all this bile and contempt.

    Are we distinguishing between a considered decision that bilious contempt is the correct response to the degradation, despair and general wanker-filled state of the world, and gassing up on Chianti and spraying abuse at all and sundry?
    Genuine LOL.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    I have come to the conclusion that the U.K. will *always* be hostile to the EU, against its best interests, through sheer pettiness, spite and jealousy.

    The EU’s animus towards the U.K. is probably more of a temporary phenomenon caused by embarrassment and fear. It will be easier for them to “be reasonable” because the U.K. is just less important to them.
    I think this is wrong. For there to be a major democratic state in Europe that's completely outside the EU will be seen as a permanent threat to their legitimacy. This effect has been somewhat masked because during the negotiations they were able to paint the UK as a country led by buffoons making a self-inflicted mistake, but the reaction to the UK's better performance on vaccines shows the underlying dynamics more clearly.
    I tend to think this is a more temporary phenomenon, and like Nabavi says, because UvdL fucked up right royally.

    But you could be right.

    It depends on how well or otherwise we do economically.
    UvdL has always fucked up royally, because she is incompetent. She is Gavin Williamson in a skirt.

    But her decisions over vaccines and Britain are - disturbing. They suggest a deep seated anger still that Britain has dared to leave the perfection of the EU.

    I was trying to find a Guardian article from 2016 that included many of their shocked and chastened reactions, but unfortunately I can’t. However, they genuinely seemed horrified that everybody didn’t love them. Remember, most people involved in the EU are fully paid up to the idea of total federation of the whole of Europe. To find that vision wasn’t shared by 52% of voters in the EU’s second most important member was totally shattering for them - and it seems, still is.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 4,428
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    India and Pakistan say hello.
    Pakistan a democratic entity? Well, mostly. But '58, '77 and '99 called and asked not to be forgotten. India's come close but never quite lost it.
    Indira Gandhi?
    The Emergency was where India came close to a dictatorship but I think, by its fingernails, it remained a democracy, albeit extremely flawed for a time. I base that on the fact that not only did Congress get thumped at the next election, she lost her seat, so the electorate could and did repudiate her policies of the period - and with extreme prejudice.
  • ydoethur said:

    Has to be said, their recent hysterical behaviour over inter alia vaccines strongly suggests the first.

    No, the vaccines response was because they knew they had screwed up in a matter of the highest importance.
    And, although we'll never know, I would not be shocked if there was a gap between what salesmen told the EU Commission and the contractual reality. Not a lie, of course, but incomplete truths, and enough for the EU to be justified in their pissed-offness.

    (Simplest explanation of the events is that the EU simply didn't anticipate the details of the Hancock Contact, so didn't ask the right question. And AZ understandably didn't tell.)
    But its not what the salesmen said, its the questions that were asked.

    Hancock wanted it quickly and asked questions about how to get it quickly.
    Kyriakides wanted it cheaply and asked questions about how to get it quickly.

    If different clients come to you with different briefs, don't be surprised that they are given different answers.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,156

    ydoethur said:

    Has to be said, their recent hysterical behaviour over inter alia vaccines strongly suggests the first.

    No, the vaccines response was because they knew they had screwed up in a matter of the highest importance.
    And, although we'll never know, I would not be shocked if there was a gap between what salesmen told the EU Commission and the contractual reality. Not a lie, of course, but incomplete truths, and enough for the EU to be justified in their pissed-offness.

    (Simplest explanation of the events is that the EU simply didn't anticipate the details of the Hancock Contact, so didn't ask the right question. And AZ understandably didn't tell.)
    The EU Commission clearly mucked up over the AstraZeneca affair, but it is also the case that most people in Europe thought AZ took the money and ran. There was some very bad (from AZ's PoV) corporate PR, including the interview that CEO Pascal Soriot gave to Repubblica. The Commission was being populist, something it seems they are not very good at. They should stick to being aloof and technocratic.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 4,428

    Seems the vast majority of the public have decided not to book holidays

    It is just common sense

    And a number are not sure whether or not they have booked a summer holiday anywhere.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 35,772

    ydoethur said:

    Has to be said, their recent hysterical behaviour over inter alia vaccines strongly suggests the first.

    No, the vaccines response was because they knew they had screwed up in a matter of the highest importance.
    And, although we'll never know, I would not be shocked if there was a gap between what salesmen told the EU Commission and the contractual reality. Not a lie, of course, but incomplete truths, and enough for the EU to be justified in their pissed-offness.

    (Simplest explanation of the events is that the EU simply didn't anticipate the details of the Hancock Contact, so didn't ask the right question. And AZ understandably didn't tell.)
    Anyone in business knows that that is an all too common occurrence: salesperson sells vision to executive, the contract is reviewed by legal and assumes it matches what was discussed, later much unhappiness that contract and conversation are in no way aligned.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,474
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    The EU wants Brexit to be a failure, partly due to their insecurities, partly to encourage the others... and partly too, because they think that the UK now wants the EU to fail.

    Peter Bone doesn't get much publicity here: but in the EU they see a member of Parliament of the ruling party calling for the EU to collapse. That is a story, and it gets peoples' backs up just as much there as "punishment beatings" lines from German MEPs get backs up here.

    And then there are things like the EU having an Embassy and an Ambassador. The EU says "hang on, pretty much everywhere else allows us representation, and the UK says f*ck off".

    It reminds me a little of a friend of a friend, who changed their name to something utterly absurd. Lots of my friends, said "fuck that, that's really stupid. I'm not changing what I call them". And I said "it doesn't cost me anything, and it's important to them, so I'll call them what they want to be called."

    So, yeah, the EU is behaving badly. But this is a co-created relationship.
    Sure. The Ambassador thing was petty and pointless.

    However, I think their attitude to us is more aggressively negative than ours to them, because it has to be. They have the incentive: to keep the EU together by proving Brexit is a disaster. What incentive do we have to be nasty and menacing to them, other than residual, and idiotic EU-hatred by a few Peter Bones? We're out, we've left, most eurosceptics are relieved, and now just want to get on and trade happily with our new neighbours.

    Their motives are different. I predict the EU will remain combatively unpleasant to the UK, obstructionist, awkward, surly, unedifying.

    The trouble is this WILL quickly provoke the same, in reverse, from the UK, and the whole relationship will go into the freezer for a decade. I bet the EU will be demanding Brits on holiday in Spain carry special £300 visas by about 2025. They will self harm, as long as it harms us more.

    Maybe war is the answer. Or the Anglosphere Alliance of Awesomness with Nukes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 18,664
    TBF that's not such a big differential between Rs and Ls on this. A majority for sharing - aka pragmatic collectivism - even with the latter. Hats off Leavers. Maybe you're not so terribly bad after all. :smile:
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 90,119
    edited February 11
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    India and Pakistan say hello.
    Pakistan a democratic entity? Well, mostly. But '58, '77 and '99 called and asked not to be forgotten. India's come close but never quite lost it.
    Indira Gandhi?
    The Emergency was where India came close to a dictatorship but I think, by its fingernails, it remained a democracy, albeit extremely flawed for a time. I base that on the fact that not only did Congress get thumped at the next election, she lost her seat, so the electorate could and did repudiate her policies of the period - and with extreme prejudice.
    My Sikh friends maintain India ceased to be a democracy the day when Rajiv Gandhi said 'when a big tree falls, the earth shakes' after the anti Sikh riots.

    Reinforced by the events after the demolition of the Babri mosque.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    More detail on WHO the British would like to share with (TL:DR Not the EU or Ireland):


  • FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    I think the UK is already pretty hostile to the EU. Ultimately a carefully calibrated level of crap is the solution, or at least the probable eventual outcome on my baseline expectation. But it could take years to settle. Disaster isn't in the EU's interest.
    I have come to the conclusion that the U.K. will *always* be hostile to the EU, against its best interests, through sheer pettiness, spite and jealousy.

    The EU’s animus towards the U.K. is probably more of a temporary phenomenon caused by embarrassment and fear. It will be easier for them to “be reasonable” because the U.K. is just less important to them.
    I think this is wrong. For there to be a major democratic state in Europe that's completely outside the EU will be seen as a permanent threat to their legitimacy. This effect has been somewhat masked because during the negotiations they were able to paint the UK as a country led by buffoons making a self-inflicted mistake, but the reaction to the UK's better performance on vaccines shows the underlying dynamics more clearly.
    Who are you and what did you do with william?

    You seem to have become incredibly reasonable this year and willing to call the EU out for the flaws they clearly have.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 4,428
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has to be said, their recent hysterical behaviour over inter alia vaccines strongly suggests the first.

    No, the vaccines response was because they knew they had screwed up in a matter of the highest importance.
    And, although we'll never know, I would not be shocked if there was a gap between what salesmen told the EU Commission and the contractual reality. Not a lie, of course, but incomplete truths, and enough for the EU to be justified in their pissed-offness.

    (Simplest explanation of the events is that the EU simply didn't anticipate the details of the Hancock Contact, so didn't ask the right question. And AZ understandably didn't tell.)
    Anyone in business knows that that is an all too common occurrence: salesperson sells vision to executive, the contract is reviewed by legal and assumes it matches what was discussed, later much unhappiness that contract and conversation are in no way aligned.
    The experience of clients deeming it not strictly necessary to give the lawyers the precise details of what was agreed is universal in the legal profession.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,068
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has to be said, their recent hysterical behaviour over inter alia vaccines strongly suggests the first.

    No, the vaccines response was because they knew they had screwed up in a matter of the highest importance.
    And, although we'll never know, I would not be shocked if there was a gap between what salesmen told the EU Commission and the contractual reality. Not a lie, of course, but incomplete truths, and enough for the EU to be justified in their pissed-offness.

    (Simplest explanation of the events is that the EU simply didn't anticipate the details of the Hancock Contact, so didn't ask the right question. And AZ understandably didn't tell.)
    Anyone in business knows that that is an all too common occurrence: salesperson sells vision to executive, the contract is reviewed by legal and assumes it matches what was discussed, later much unhappiness that contract and conversation are in no way aligned.
    Although in this case I think it was probably more that the EU Commission was naive about the difficulties of ramping up production so fast. I bet Kate Bingham was a hell of a lot more realistic about the risk of delays, since she had good experience of other companies bringing new pharma products on stream. And, to be fair, UvdL has pretty much admitted this, once she'd stopped throwing her toys out of the pram in our direction.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 35,772
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    It occurs to me that the relationship between the EU and the UK is, now, uniquely poisonous in the free world. Why? Because the EU is not neutral or uninterested, vis a vis the UK, it actively wants us to FAIL and SUFFER, so as to discourage any other country from quitting the EU

    This is why the EU has reacted with such weird, neurotic insecurity to its relatively poor vaccine performance: because it also says Maybe the Project isn't so great after all. They can't have anyone thinking that, so instead it was: fuck Ireland, draw a border, stop UK vaccine imports, let's make it harder for them

    This is also why the EU is being SO obstructive on everything, I can well believe the Tories have made ample mistakes, but it is obvious the EU is being deliberately arsey, wherever and whenever it can. They want Brexit Britain to be a disaster, because they are so insecure over in Brussels.

    This presents quite an ongoing problem for the UK. No other democratic entity actively wants the failure of another, as far as I know, especially when it involves two such close and important neighbours as the UK and the EU

    What can we do? Either we grovel and hope they grow up, or we become as hostile in return - or worse. Try and undermine them. Or we unite with America and invade them.


    The EU wants Brexit to be a failure, partly due to their insecurities, partly to encourage the others... and partly too, because they think that the UK now wants the EU to fail.

    Peter Bone doesn't get much publicity here: but in the EU they see a member of Parliament of the ruling party calling for the EU to collapse. That is a story, and it gets peoples' backs up just as much there as "punishment beatings" lines from German MEPs get backs up here.

    And then there are things like the EU having an Embassy and an Ambassador. The EU says "hang on, pretty much everywhere else allows us representation, and the UK says f*ck off".

    It reminds me a little of a friend of a friend, who changed their name to something utterly absurd. Lots of my friends, said "fuck that, that's really stupid. I'm not changing what I call them". And I said "it doesn't cost me anything, and it's important to them, so I'll call them what they want to be called."

    So, yeah, the EU is behaving badly. But this is a co-created relationship.
    Sure. The Ambassador thing was petty and pointless.

    However, I think their attitude to us is more aggressively negative than ours to them, because it has to be. They have the incentive: to keep the EU together by proving Brexit is a disaster. What incentive do we have to be nasty and menacing to them, other than residual, and idiotic EU-hatred by a few Peter Bones? We're out, we've left, most eurosceptics are relieved, and now just want to get on and trade happily with our new neighbours.

    Their motives are different. I predict the EU will remain combatively unpleasant to the UK, obstructionist, awkward, surly, unedifying.

    The trouble is this WILL quickly provoke the same, in reverse, from the UK, and the whole relationship will go into the freezer for a decade. I bet the EU will be demanding Brits on holiday in Spain carry special £300 visas by about 2025. They will self harm, as long as it harms us more.

    Maybe war is the answer. Or the Anglosphere Alliance of Awesomness with Nukes.
    I think we're in the middle of a negative feedback loop, and I don't see how we get out of it without a change in personalities.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,474
    edited February 11

    Leon said:

    No surprises to see here that Leavers are, on balance, more likely to be selfish, aged incels.

    Has it occurred to you that your ongoing stress and self confessed depressions are making your comments somewhat too bitter? It's not good for you, all this bile and contempt.

    Are we distinguishing between a considered decision that bilious contempt is the correct response to the degradation, despair and general wanker-filled state of the world, and gassing up on Chianti and spraying abuse at all and sundry?
    To be honest, I presumed Gardenwalker's use of the term "pungent, wheedling, aged Scottish incel" was aimed directly at you, to be honest, as you fit the bill so perfectly - so I am surprised and charmed that you take his remarks with such grace
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    All heading in the right direction:


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