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A Suggestion on Political Reform – politicalbetting.com

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    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,894

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    We will not have self driving cars within 10 years.

    Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

    You really think THESE guys won't be able to drive a car in ten years' time?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3KWM1kuAw


    Ten years ago, these robots would have seem magical. If not Satanically miraculous. Yours is a brave call.
    Correct, they will not.

    The problem of self driving cars is filled with a series of incredibly challenging hard problems. Over the last decade people have made tremendous strides defeating hard problem after hard problem only to discover there are yet more hard problems.

    AI is not magic, it is just an encoding of a human solution run on processors with far less computational power than the human brain.

    Likewise language translation. Automatic language translation is a forever improving field but we are still no closer to the death of the professional translator than we were a decade ago.

    There is an infinite number of hard problems between here and there.

    And as a society we are improved by meeting and beating those problems but they don't move us appreciably closer to the purported goal.
    lol.

    Would you seriously advise your, say, 16 year old child, to seek a career in "professional translation"?

    Of course not. We all know it is doomed. As with the car (discussed below) a few ultra-wealthy individuals may keep a human translator for the sheer, vulgar, blingy display value (like horses, or antique ink pens, or other outdated tech) but the vast majority of translation will be done by computer tech, which already, even at iPhone level, is now remarkably good at translating

    It's done. It is over. It will happen. The advantages of self driving electric cars in particular (near zero deaths, no drunk driving, zero pollution, an end to parking problems, forget insurance and MOTS, freeing of streets, greening of all cities) are so overwhelming they are near certain.

    Driverless cars... The advantages aren't questioned; the actual achievement, that's the issue.
    Hofstadter's law coined in 1979 said that the time when a computer beat a grandmaster at chess would always be ten years away, and Hofstadter was an unbelievably smart cookie. 1997, Deep Blue beats Kasparov.
    I'll be happy to be proved wrong... I'd like a driverless car. I just do not believe it's going to happen in my lifetime.
    My tutor at university was experimenting with autonomous vehicles (working on simultaneous localization and mapping) 30 years ago. A lot of the problems have been solved since then, but the problem is mainly all those unpredictable humans. Perhaps if the humans were eliminated, it would all work fine.

    For some reason he was advising the MOD fairly recently...

    In a way the self driving cars are solving the wrong problem. They are solving for a situation where roads contain large numbers of vehicles controlled by humans and all that unpredictability that goes along with that.

    If only self driving cars were allowed on the roads (and the roads were augmented with sensors), the current technology is sufficient.
    Yes, exactly. I think we might first see a hybrid situation where autonomous driving is permitted on certain roads (such as motorways) only. Freight would be the obvious place to start.

    Building an autonomous motorway might be a better investment than HS2.

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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,024

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    We will not have self driving cars within 10 years.

    Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

    You really think THESE guys won't be able to drive a car in ten years' time?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3KWM1kuAw


    Ten years ago, these robots would have seem magical. If not Satanically miraculous. Yours is a brave call.
    Correct, they will not.

    The problem of self driving cars is filled with a series of incredibly challenging hard problems. Over the last decade people have made tremendous strides defeating hard problem after hard problem only to discover there are yet more hard problems.

    AI is not magic, it is just an encoding of a human solution run on processors with far less computational power than the human brain.

    Likewise language translation. Automatic language translation is a forever improving field but we are still no closer to the death of the professional translator than we were a decade ago.

    There is an infinite number of hard problems between here and there.

    And as a society we are improved by meeting and beating those problems but they don't move us appreciably closer to the purported goal.
    lol.

    Would you seriously advise your, say, 16 year old child, to seek a career in "professional translation"?

    Of course not. We all know it is doomed. As with the car (discussed below) a few ultra-wealthy individuals may keep a human translator for the sheer, vulgar, blingy display value (like horses, or antique ink pens, or other outdated tech) but the vast majority of translation will be done by computer tech, which already, even at iPhone level, is now remarkably good at translating

    It's done. It is over. It will happen. The advantages of self driving electric cars in particular (near zero deaths, no drunk driving, zero pollution, an end to parking problems, forget insurance and MOTS, freeing of streets, greening of all cities) are so overwhelming they are near certain.

    Driverless cars... The advantages aren't questioned; the actual achievement, that's the issue.
    Hofstadter's law coined in 1979 said that the time when a computer beat a grandmaster at chess would always be ten years away, and Hofstadter was an unbelievably smart cookie. 1997, Deep Blue beats Kasparov.
    I'll be happy to be proved wrong... I'd like a driverless car. I just do not believe it's going to happen in my lifetime.
    My tutor at university was experimenting with autonomous vehicles (working on simultaneous localization and mapping) 30 years ago. A lot of the problems have been solved since then, but the problem is mainly all those unpredictable humans. Perhaps if the humans were eliminated, it would all work fine.

    For some reason he was advising the MOD fairly recently...

    In a way the self driving cars are solving the wrong problem. They are solving for a situation where roads contain large numbers of vehicles controlled by humans and all that unpredictability that goes along with that.

    If only self driving cars were allowed on the roads (and the roads were augmented with sensors), the current technology is sufficient.
    Indeed. If we’d started from here, humans simply wouldn’t be allowed to drive cars, as bizarre as that sounds.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,720
    Article in American Spectator from about 3 weeks ago.

    "Introducing Wokeyleaks
    ‘The character trait that typically accompanies fame is extreme narcissism’"

    https://spectator.us/topic/introducing-wokeyleaks-celebrity-fame/
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,610
    edited February 2021

    I doubt China would worry about protecting a building like this.
    https://twitter.com/swindonadver/status/1357418652514017286?s=21

    That's just Nimbys flailing around by the look of it.

    Though it could probably technically be converted to flats, it does not seem outstanding and as it is 60s ish it is probably full of asbestos. A normal podium / tower office block.
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    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Anecdata South London Category 6 (underlying health condition) friend getting jabbed tomorrow - despite the lower numbers they do seem to be motoring......

    Category 6 is a big chunk 7.3m, so that could take 2-3 weeks.

    Then category 7 which is very important.

    (Personal disclosure - cat 7 includes me!)
    I wonder what the most common categories are here.

    I'm guessing I'll be the not-yet-announced category 12.
    Category 12 sounds about right for me too - with category 10 being the whole of the rest of the public sector not already covered at the outset under 1 and 2, and category 11 being all supermarket workers. Essentially the back of the queue. Defenceless until some point between June and September, depending on how much more supply can be ramped up by.
    That's unduly pessimistic if I may say. At the current average rate of 430k doses per day the whole adult population of the UK (52.8m) could get a 1st dose by 12th May 2021.

    Ah, but the 2nd doses you say. To which I say the average daily rate will be well above 600k within two weeks. That brings the 12th May back to 14th April. 2nd doses really only pick up big-time in April. Then you have to consider the refusniks... say 10-20%? So 52.8m becomes maybe 45m?

    You'll get your 1st dose before May imo, possibly before April.
    I'll be delighted if you're proven correct, but this does rather depend on supply continuing to increase at quite a significant rate and nothing at all going wrong.
    My experience with manufacturing is that you design a plant to a certain capacity.

    You turn it on.

    There are tonnes of problems. Nothing works as it should.

    It month one, you run at perhaps 10% of theoretical capacity.

    In month two, it's still dreadful, perhaps 25% of capacity.

    By month four, you're getting into your stride and getting 80%.

    And by the time you get to a year, you are talking about debottlenecking and how you can get actual output up to 125% of capacity.

    I don't see why vaccines should be any different. Lots of teething problems. But they get solved. And new capacity is brought on at additional plants. And new vaccines are released.

    It's also worth remembering the *scale* of the prize to a Pfizer.

    They now saw they will produce two billion doses this year. If they are sold for $30 each, Pfizer will have made sales of their vaccine of $60bn in one year.

    Bear in mind that in 2020, Pfizer's total sales were $41bn. That would be quite the increase.
    In principle the same applies in biological production. However, for anything involving live cells, the engineering of scaling up is more complex than 'dry' systems or even chemical reactions. And even when you have those issues sorted, it takes only a tiny bit of contamination to ruin and entire run. I know some 'dry' manufacturing (semiconductors, nano-materials) also demand very clean, non-static environments, but growing live stuff, the probability of the occasional ruined batch is ever present.
    Oh yes, there's the ever present risk of a batch being "zero" through contamination, etc.

    But people simply get better over time. Problems occur, and then the experience is shared among all the manufacturing sites.

    My point is that some people seem to worry that production of vaccines in aggregate might dip, when the reality is that more and more plants will get brought on-line every month between now and the end of the year, and production at existing plants should continue to rise too.
    Yep, overall production volume is only going to go up on aggregate, even though there will be some inevitable snafus along the way.
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    Andy_JS said:

    England win toss and bat.

    Nice to hear Sunil Gavaskar commentating on Channel 4 because he was in the box for BBC TV when I first started watching cricket when Gooch got 333 in 1990.

    Looks a good toss to win. Hope I'm still saying that in six hours time!
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,301
    The number of Americans willing to be vaccinated, from recent polls, appears to have reached two thirds, having started off not much more than half.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,301
    CNN: The House voted Thursday evening to remove Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene from her committee assignments, a decisive step that comes in the wake of recently unearthed incendiary and violent past statements from the congresswoman that have triggered widespread backlash from Democrats and divided congressional Republicans.

    The vote tally was 230-199 with 11 Republican House members voting with Democrats to remove Greene from her committee assignments.
    House Democrats, who control the chamber, set up the vote after first attempting to pressure Republicans to strip the Georgia Republican of committee assignments on their own. House Republicans did not take that action, however, and House GOP leader Kevin McCarthy on Wednesday released a statement calling the push by Democrats to take away the congresswoman's committee assignments a "partisan power grab."
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,301
    Guardian: Pressure is growing on the government over its support for a new coalmine in Cumbria, as the UK prepares to host the most important UN climate summit since the Paris agreement was signed in 2015.

    Developing country experts, scientists, green campaigners and government advisers are increasingly concerned about the seeming contradiction of ministers backing the new mine – the UK’s first new deep coalmine in three decades, which will produce coking coal, mostly for export, until 2049 – while gathering support from world leaders for a fresh deal on the climate crisis.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,610
    edited February 2021
    Thank-you for the piece - very enjoyable and an interesting zinger of an article. I am mainly not convinced.

    1 - I am not sure that the experience of Police & Crime Commissioners (or historic experience in the USA) supports the election to particular cabinet positions.

    They tried to do this iirc with Labour Party Cabinet members (or shad cab) elected by members.

    2 - This is just like Citizen's Assemblies. Studying recent ones these seem to me to move the balance too far from the elected element, to the technocrats who do the briefings. The risk is moving the politics out of the assembly into the corridors, which we generally want to resist.

    3 - I think the difficulty here is that the devil actually is in the detail. Not sure how that is dealt with.

    4 - Looks like a good idea, if possible within timescales.

    5 - I think that is too rigid.

    6 is rather a reversal of history development of the franchise.

    If you have not read it, I think you may enjoy a Short Story called Franchise written by Isaac Asimov, exploring one view of "electronic democracy". Published in 1955.

    It is only a few thousand words, and there is a version in this PDF:
    http://www.brandonkendhammer.com/challenges_of_democratization/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Franchise-Asimov-1955.pdf

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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,301
    A spike in US cases is feared this weekend, as Americans get together to watch their superb owl.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,610
    edited February 2021
    IanB2 said:

    A spike in US cases is feared this weekend, as Americans get together to watch their superb owl.

    Are there free tickets :blush: ?
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    Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited February 2021
    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Guardian: Pressure is growing on the government over its support for a new coalmine in Cumbria, as the UK prepares to host the most important UN climate summit since the Paris agreement was signed in 2015.

    Developing country experts, scientists, green campaigners and government advisers are increasingly concerned about the seeming contradiction of ministers backing the new mine – the UK’s first new deep coalmine in three decades, which will produce coking coal, mostly for export, until 2049 – while gathering support from world leaders for a fresh deal on the climate crisis.

    This strikes me as arrant nonsense.

    It is coking coal for the steel industry, and will not be "not required" if Greenies make us import it all from more polluting plants outside our control.

    We should have learnt that lesson when Ed Milliband's tax changes killed the aluminium industry.
    This type of writing (all news outlets do it, including the TV bulletins) makes me smile. “Pressure is growing”. Is it? From who? Not the public.
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    IanB2 said:

    Guardian: Pressure is growing on the government over its support for a new coalmine in Cumbria, as the UK prepares to host the most important UN climate summit since the Paris agreement was signed in 2015.

    Developing country experts, scientists, green campaigners and government advisers are increasingly concerned about the seeming contradiction of ministers backing the new mine – the UK’s first new deep coalmine in three decades, which will produce coking coal, mostly for export, until 2049 – while gathering support from world leaders for a fresh deal on the climate crisis.

    The world needs steel. Heck, don't wind turbines need steel?

    There's no contradiction between caring for the environment and producing steel.

    Coking coal is not the same thing as coal burned for electricity.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,610

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Guardian: Pressure is growing on the government over its support for a new coalmine in Cumbria, as the UK prepares to host the most important UN climate summit since the Paris agreement was signed in 2015.

    Developing country experts, scientists, green campaigners and government advisers are increasingly concerned about the seeming contradiction of ministers backing the new mine – the UK’s first new deep coalmine in three decades, which will produce coking coal, mostly for export, until 2049 – while gathering support from world leaders for a fresh deal on the climate crisis.

    This strikes me as arrant nonsense.

    It is coking coal for the steel industry, and will not be "not required" if Greenies make us import it all from more polluting plants outside our control.

    We should have learnt that lesson when Ed Milliband's tax changes killed the aluminium industry.
    This type of writing (all news outlets do it, including the TV bulletins) makes me smile. “Pressure is growing”. Is it? From who? Not the public.
    Usually people / groups who lost a democratic process so have decided to go outside it.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134
    Sortition. Yes please!
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,301
    The Covid crisis dominates the British press this morning, with some signs of optimism coming through. “Return of sport and socialising outdoors”, says the Times, while the Mail reckons “Most Covid curbs ‘to end in May’”. In Scotland the Press & Journal reports on lower case rates: “At last there’s a ray of sunshine in Covid battle”. The Express sees optimism in the economy – “Shot in the arm for Britain plc” – and the Mirror has “Delivery of hope” about their campaign for school supplies
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Some interesting proposals, Mr. Pagan, though I suspect too radical to have much prospect of coming about.
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    Interesting article on Finance post-Brexit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55939857
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,301
    Breaking: May elections are Go!
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    IanB2 said:

    A spike in US cases is feared this weekend, as Americans get together to watch their superb owl.

    In what way is their owl better than the ones Labour were said to be giving us?
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    AnneJGP said:

    IanB2 said:

    A spike in US cases is feared this weekend, as Americans get together to watch their superb owl.

    In what way is their owl better than the ones Labour were said to be giving us?
    If you're into that kind of thing, their owl is famously paid for by copious amounts of adverts instead of taxes.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    IanB2 said:

    A spike in US cases is feared this weekend, as Americans get together to watch their superb owl.

    Watch the birdie!
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,301

    It seems it is a complex exercise and to be fair Nicola Sturgeon said she was delaying any announcement on her announced mandated quarantine until next week

    I expect this has been agreed across the four nations
    Could, and should, have been done 11 months ago.
    Maybe but we are not New Zealand
    And Tory plans were held up when they found that none of their MPs is married to anyone who owns a hotel chain.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,011
    Good morning everyone.

    Don't quite understand all the to-ing and fro-ing over hotel quarantine. Thailand's had it for months; there are even holiday packages marketed which included the quarantine period. And according to reports, it worked very well Food was OK, people were looked after.
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    King Cole, we have a dithering idiot in Number Ten.
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    gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Good grief. The tone of the front pages. Seems a bit of a street party rush out of lockdown to me.

    What do I know? I know you can have 2 jabs and still get COVID. I’m the right side of 50 to get one, but I don’t play for Chesterfield so I haven’t seen anything yet. So I am still feeling rather vulnerable to be honest.

    When the whistle comes, and you go over the top to start walking slowly toward the enemy, I hope you don’t mind awfully if I just wait to see what happens to you?
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,324

    IanB2 said:

    Guardian: Pressure is growing on the government over its support for a new coalmine in Cumbria, as the UK prepares to host the most important UN climate summit since the Paris agreement was signed in 2015.

    Developing country experts, scientists, green campaigners and government advisers are increasingly concerned about the seeming contradiction of ministers backing the new mine – the UK’s first new deep coalmine in three decades, which will produce coking coal, mostly for export, until 2049 – while gathering support from world leaders for a fresh deal on the climate crisis.

    The world needs steel. Heck, don't wind turbines need steel?

    There's no contradiction between caring for the environment and producing steel.

    Coking coal is not the same thing as coal burned for electricity.
    There are alternatives being developed to using coking coal for producing steel. "It can't be done" is an argument of the past.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottcarpenter/2020/08/31/swedish-steelmaker-uses-hydrogen-instead-of-coal-to-make-fossil-free-steel/
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,911

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    We will not have self driving cars within 10 years.

    Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

    You really think THESE guys won't be able to drive a car in ten years' time?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3KWM1kuAw


    Ten years ago, these robots would have seem magical. If not Satanically miraculous. Yours is a brave call.
    Correct, they will not.

    The problem of self driving cars is filled with a series of incredibly challenging hard problems. Over the last decade people have made tremendous strides defeating hard problem after hard problem only to discover there are yet more hard problems.

    AI is not magic, it is just an encoding of a human solution run on processors with far less computational power than the human brain.

    Likewise language translation. Automatic language translation is a forever improving field but we are still no closer to the death of the professional translator than we were a decade ago.

    There is an infinite number of hard problems between here and there.

    And as a society we are improved by meeting and beating those problems but they don't move us appreciably closer to the purported goal.
    lol.

    Would you seriously advise your, say, 16 year old child, to seek a career in "professional translation"?

    Of course not. We all know it is doomed. As with the car (discussed below) a few ultra-wealthy individuals may keep a human translator for the sheer, vulgar, blingy display value (like horses, or antique ink pens, or other outdated tech) but the vast majority of translation will be done by computer tech, which already, even at iPhone level, is now remarkably good at translating

    It's done. It is over. It will happen. The advantages of self driving electric cars in particular (near zero deaths, no drunk driving, zero pollution, an end to parking problems, forget insurance and MOTS, freeing of streets, greening of all cities) are so overwhelming they are near certain.

    Driverless cars... The advantages aren't questioned; the actual achievement, that's the issue.
    Hofstadter's law coined in 1979 said that the time when a computer beat a grandmaster at chess would always be ten years away, and Hofstadter was an unbelievably smart cookie. 1997, Deep Blue beats Kasparov.
    I'll be happy to be proved wrong... I'd like a driverless car. I just do not believe it's going to happen in my lifetime.
    My tutor at university was experimenting with autonomous vehicles (working on simultaneous localization and mapping) 30 years ago. A lot of the problems have been solved since then, but the problem is mainly all those unpredictable humans. Perhaps if the humans were eliminated, it would all work fine.

    For some reason he was advising the MOD fairly recently...

    In a way the self driving cars are solving the wrong problem. They are solving for a situation where roads contain large numbers of vehicles controlled by humans and all that unpredictability that goes along with that.

    If only self driving cars were allowed on the roads (and the roads were augmented with sensors), the current technology is sufficient.
    What an interesting and diverse thread. Well done to Pagan for the header.

    Yes, the way to implement SD cars is to build a new town around them, so they have a segregated road network with no other vehicles or pedestrians. Even then, they’ll likely be the victims of sabotage (humans, don’t you just love them?) and occasionally get as confused as my wife’s Roomba does when someone leaves a phone charger cable on the floor.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,712

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    We will not have self driving cars within 10 years.

    Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

    You really think THESE guys won't be able to drive a car in ten years' time?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3KWM1kuAw


    Ten years ago, these robots would have seem magical. If not Satanically miraculous. Yours is a brave call.
    Correct, they will not.

    The problem of self driving cars is filled with a series of incredibly challenging hard problems. Over the last decade people have made tremendous strides defeating hard problem after hard problem only to discover there are yet more hard problems.

    AI is not magic, it is just an encoding of a human solution run on processors with far less computational power than the human brain.

    Likewise language translation. Automatic language translation is a forever improving field but we are still no closer to the death of the professional translator than we were a decade ago.

    There is an infinite number of hard problems between here and there.

    And as a society we are improved by meeting and beating those problems but they don't move us appreciably closer to the purported goal.
    lol.

    Would you seriously advise your, say, 16 year old child, to seek a career in "professional translation"?

    Of course not. We all know it is doomed. As with the car (discussed below) a few ultra-wealthy individuals may keep a human translator for the sheer, vulgar, blingy display value (like horses, or antique ink pens, or other outdated tech) but the vast majority of translation will be done by computer tech, which already, even at iPhone level, is now remarkably good at translating

    It's done. It is over. It will happen. The advantages of self driving electric cars in particular (near zero deaths, no drunk driving, zero pollution, an end to parking problems, forget insurance and MOTS, freeing of streets, greening of all cities) are so overwhelming they are near certain.

    Driverless cars... The advantages aren't questioned; the actual achievement, that's the issue.
    Hofstadter's law coined in 1979 said that the time when a computer beat a grandmaster at chess would always be ten years away, and Hofstadter was an unbelievably smart cookie. 1997, Deep Blue beats Kasparov.
    I'll be happy to be proved wrong... I'd like a driverless car. I just do not believe it's going to happen in my lifetime.
    My tutor at university was experimenting with autonomous vehicles (working on simultaneous localization and mapping) 30 years ago. A lot of the problems have been solved since then, but the problem is mainly all those unpredictable humans. Perhaps if the humans were eliminated, it would all work fine.

    For some reason he was advising the MOD fairly recently...

    In a way the self driving cars are solving the wrong problem. They are solving for a situation where roads contain large numbers of vehicles controlled by humans and all that unpredictability that goes along with that.

    If only self driving cars were allowed on the roads (and the roads were augmented with sensors), the current technology is sufficient.
    Time and again the conclusion that AI robots will come up with is that human behaviour is the problem. The simple solution to run things smoothly is obvious...
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    The UK is now the biggest destination for Australian wine exports by volume, with Brits buying up 266 million litres (29.6 million cases) in 2020.

    The most popular varieties were shiraz/syrah which accounted for 29% of UK sales last year, followed by chardonnay (25%) and cabernet sauvignon (10%).


    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55929414
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    gealbhan said:

    Good grief. The tone of the front pages. Seems a bit of a street party rush out of lockdown to me.

    What do I know? I know you can have 2 jabs and still get COVID. I’m the right side of 50 to get one, but I don’t play for Chesterfield so I haven’t seen anything yet. So I am still feeling rather vulnerable to be honest.

    When the whistle comes, and you go over the top to start walking slowly toward the enemy, I hope you don’t mind awfully if I just wait to see what happens to you?

    A report in spain today of an OPH with 7 new cases of patients twice vaccinated. With another 6 staff asymptomatic unvaccinated. The dangers seem pretty obvious although be interesting to see more detail.
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    None of this bodes well for how they will deal with the euro economic crisis after covid.
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    Good morning everyone.

    Don't quite understand all the to-ing and fro-ing over hotel quarantine. Thailand's had it for months; there are even holiday packages marketed which included the quarantine period. And according to reports, it worked very well Food was OK, people were looked after.

    I suspect parts of government have fighting over this, with one department maybe dragging its feet.

    Of course government suffers from "not invented here" so just putting another country's scheme into implementation won't be considered.

    I also suspect that the majority of people entering from foreign countries are Brits who went abroad recently. We are in lockdown and shouldn't be travelling.

    We should be stopping people leaving the country in the first place.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,911
    edited February 2021

    Good morning everyone.

    Don't quite understand all the to-ing and fro-ing over hotel quarantine. Thailand's had it for months; there are even holiday packages marketed which included the quarantine period. And according to reports, it worked very well Food was OK, people were looked after.

    I reckon the issue is scale, they’ve way underestimated the number of rooms required - which is in itself a measure of how many people are still travelling.

    Last year, with all the disruption, LHR still averaged 60k people per day going through.

    It would be insightful to see some stats on who is travelling and from where at the moment.

    (Australia and Emirates airline had a bit of a spat a couple of weeks back, after the Aussie government only allowed planes half full of people to certain destinations, because of quarantine capacity).
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,712
    AnneJGP said:

    IanB2 said:

    A spike in US cases is feared this weekend, as Americans get together to watch their superb owl.

    In what way is their owl better than the ones Labour were said to be giving us?
    Labour promised free owls, but never specified how superb so left a get out in their promise.

    I miss Millibandism. It would have been entertaining with its Edstones and owls, but gently so compared to the last 5 years.
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    IanB2 said:

    Guardian: Pressure is growing on the government over its support for a new coalmine in Cumbria, as the UK prepares to host the most important UN climate summit since the Paris agreement was signed in 2015.

    Developing country experts, scientists, green campaigners and government advisers are increasingly concerned about the seeming contradiction of ministers backing the new mine – the UK’s first new deep coalmine in three decades, which will produce coking coal, mostly for export, until 2049 – while gathering support from world leaders for a fresh deal on the climate crisis.

    The world needs steel. Heck, don't wind turbines need steel?

    There's no contradiction between caring for the environment and producing steel.

    Coking coal is not the same thing as coal burned for electricity.
    There are alternatives being developed to using coking coal for producing steel. "It can't be done" is an argument of the past.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottcarpenter/2020/08/31/swedish-steelmaker-uses-hydrogen-instead-of-coal-to-make-fossil-free-steel/
    Being developed and available today are two totally different things.

    Cleaner coke based steel is still a more environmentally friendly alternative than importing it from countries that don't give a damn about environmental standards.

    It's like choosing a hybrid over a diesel. It's still progress.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,329
    Well done @Pagan2 in producing the thread header. It is certainly thought provoking but...no.

    Government needs to be coherent. It involves choices between the things you want to do, prioritisation. It requires an overall picture and, ideally, a clear sense of mission. How would such a structure cope with the pandemic where the platforms on which the various department heads would simply need to be binned to cope with the emergency? Similarly a war or the 2008 crash?

    My critique of government would be that it is too incoherent right now, that we need to find ways of ensuring that the various arms are pulling in the same direction to achieve common goals. If you take a problem like social care it has implications for not just the care sector and the health service but pensions, taxation, benefits, etc. It cannot be dealt with piece meal if a satisfactory solution is to be found.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.
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    gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    felix said:

    gealbhan said:

    Good grief. The tone of the front pages. Seems a bit of a street party rush out of lockdown to me.

    What do I know? I know you can have 2 jabs and still get COVID. I’m the right side of 50 to get one, but I don’t play for Chesterfield so I haven’t seen anything yet. So I am still feeling rather vulnerable to be honest.

    When the whistle comes, and you go over the top to start walking slowly toward the enemy, I hope you don’t mind awfully if I just wait to see what happens to you?

    A report in spain today of an OPH with 7 new cases of patients twice vaccinated. With another 6 staff asymptomatic unvaccinated. The dangers seem pretty obvious although be interesting to see more detail.
    It’s the OPH to watch for isn’t it as litmus test, one jabbed and two? When it got in before it ran through it, when it gets in now will it not run through it.

    All eyes on the OPHs!
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    gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Well done to Pagan2 for debut and interesting thread 🙂.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Interesting the way Reuters have written that up. von der Leyen is mentioned twice - in passing. Talking to these diplomats, you would get the impression she was just a peripheral figure, her role limited to sending out one tweet.

    It is clear they are circling the wagons around her. Gallina is going to be the one who gets the blame. Even down to a little dig - effectively "what was she doing in the role, she only came here as an interpreter thirty years ago...."
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    Site Admins - Please note I had to enter site through the vanilla forum route as using the www.politicalbetting.com entry route has been hijacked.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,301
    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.

    My robot roomba does hard floors just fine
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    Nice to see a new header writer and different ideas.

    But no. 6 is a complete no-no. It does not expand the franchise. It restricts it. It is fundamentally undemocratic. It is the sort of thing the Chinese would approve of. It is also unworkable.

    The vote is not something you earn. It is a fundamental right if we want our society to be free in any sense at all.


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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    What's the best and worst airport hotel PBers have stayed in?

    There was a little motel bang next door to Hell Airport that I was once stuck in for a couple of days. Nothing to do but look at an empty vending machine
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    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.

    Not cordless but we got a Shark a while back and it works far, far better than our old Dyson did. Not tried their cordless model but if it's any bit as good as their corded one then I would recommend it.
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    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.

    Not cordless but we got a Shark a while back and it works far, far better than our old Dyson did. Not tried their cordless model but if it's any bit as good as their corded one then I would recommend it.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,932
    edited February 2021
    This "postcode lottery" article is so misleading

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9224205/Coronavirus-rates-70s-jabbed-FOUR-TIMES-higher-South-East-London-Devon.html?ito=push-notification&ci=74595&si=25474331
    London, specifically South East London had the lowest over 80 jab takeup and a younger population so of course they're moving onto the next groups quicker.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.

    My robot roomba does hard floors just fine
    What about furniture? How does it move that or get under it or get into spaces into which it does not fit?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    IanB2 said:

    A spike in US cases is feared this weekend, as Americans get together to watch their superb owl.

    Sounds like I'm missing out on one hell of a twitch...
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,610

    Site Admins - Please note I had to enter site through the vanilla forum route as using the www.politicalbetting.com entry route has been hijacked.

    Are you sure that is not a hangover from the previous hack a couple of months ago?

    Mine persisted in my cache until flushed.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,324

    IanB2 said:

    Guardian: Pressure is growing on the government over its support for a new coalmine in Cumbria, as the UK prepares to host the most important UN climate summit since the Paris agreement was signed in 2015.

    Developing country experts, scientists, green campaigners and government advisers are increasingly concerned about the seeming contradiction of ministers backing the new mine – the UK’s first new deep coalmine in three decades, which will produce coking coal, mostly for export, until 2049 – while gathering support from world leaders for a fresh deal on the climate crisis.

    The world needs steel. Heck, don't wind turbines need steel?

    There's no contradiction between caring for the environment and producing steel.

    Coking coal is not the same thing as coal burned for electricity.
    There are alternatives being developed to using coking coal for producing steel. "It can't be done" is an argument of the past.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottcarpenter/2020/08/31/swedish-steelmaker-uses-hydrogen-instead-of-coal-to-make-fossil-free-steel/
    Being developed and available today are two totally different things.

    Cleaner coke based steel is still a more environmentally friendly alternative than importing it from countries that don't give a damn about environmental standards.

    It's like choosing a hybrid over a diesel. It's still progress.
    It's about taking action now so that it is available at scale in 10 years, rather than still being developed in 2049.

    Time is of the essence.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Charles said:

    What's the best and worst airport hotel PBers have stayed in?

    There was a little motel bang next door to Hell Airport that I was once stuck in for a couple of days. Nothing to do but look at an empty vending machine
    Was the room heating set really, really hot in there?
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.

    I bought a cordless one from Lidl Spain last year for 89€ - works great on our all tiled floors - very easy to clean /change filters etc. Outperforms our previous cordless Dyson by miles and around €350 less expensive. It laso looks good on the wall!
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.

    My robot roomba does hard floors just fine
    What about furniture? How does it move that or get under it or get into spaces into which it does not fit?
    Can't see it - not there. :smile:
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.

    I bought my GOBLIN in about 1975. It uses paper bags and, apart from the odd little mend, works just fine. My partner her modern Dyson is fairly crappy. Speaking with passion, sometimes older is better.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ping said:

    Removing the franchise from low/non-earners?

    I’m amazed more posters aren’t outraged by that.

    My suggestion was about 2k combined tax and ni circa 18k income....or volunteer work and yes you can mix and match so 1k combined plus 100 hours a year....didnt think it that onerous....if I had said 10k or 2000 hours yes and its more the principle something not earned is not valued
    As a very high earner in the additional tax band I'd be one of the people to benefit from such a system but I find the idea quite disturbing. Money shouldn't be able to buy more of a say in who governs the country. The donation system is already a mess of influence buying, this directly links wealth to having more of a say.

    One of the great things about this country is that I have exactly the same amount of votes (1) as someone who has a billion pounds in a bank or someone who is on the dole (1).

    I can see merit in some of the other ideas and I think a more direct democracy like Switzerland can be beneficial, I don't see any merit in restrictions on the franchise for citizens.
    You might have the same number of votes but the relationship between the wealthy and the governing parties of all flavours shows that is irrelevant, money buys policy already.
    Firstly influence buying is completely different to receiving more votes by virtue of income, secondly a person would need to choose to buy influence with large donations to parties, this would be automatic and reward higher earners and very high earners with much more of a say over public life than lower income earners.

    It would completely break the current social contract this country maintains between the wealthy and less wealthy. It's already at breaking point with tax evasion and avoidance by billionaires which the government turns a blind eye to.
    Come on, pagan is suggesting earning £18k or volunteering or retired or disabilities or other things. It is hardly about restricting voting to the wealthy.
    And also increased votes for people who have higher contributions. A sort of incentive to earn more money I guess.

    Even the idea of a threshold is completely unpalatable to me. How could I look someone in the eye knowing that I have a say on our government and they don't. It's completely wrong.
    Have you ever been canvassing with a candidate, in a less than rich area? I have.

    It is pretty sobering. About every 3rd house you think, OMFG these people are deciding the future of the nation. They haven't got a clue. They can barely boil an egg.

    I love the idea of democracy but I wonder if it has peaked. I'm serious. First, we have the success of China, clearly out-performing the USA, in almost every way now (including pandemic-management, despite starting a pandemic). In China, the technocratic Party decides. but as the Party can take a longer view than any individual, the Party is wiser. This model becomes increasingly seductive to many, as America declines and China ascends. Cf Singapore. Basically a one party state which has beautifully married English Common Law to Chinese autocracy.

    Second, AI. How far away is the moment when a computer will make a better political choice than any average human? About 10 minutes, I reckon.

    The future will be special, neutral, bespoke voting robots, deciding our elections.

    I am serious. I think democracy, as we know it, is nearly done. The machines know better, that's why they fly our planes and will soon drive our cars. After that, they select our government
    China is certainly outperforming the US on the genocide stakes. Oh and on the mass rape of women belonging to the wrong ethnic minority.
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    None of this bodes well for how they will deal with the euro economic crisis after covid.
    Probably the same way we will deal with our sterling crisis after covid.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,638
    Morning all. OK, so let me make sure that I've got this right:

    Wednesday afternoon, Bozo says that there will be an announcement on quarantine hotels on Thursday.
    Thursday morning, Zahawi says oh no, there won't be an announcement until next week.
    Late Thursday evening, government friends in the media announce it will start on 15th Feb.

    I don't see a problem there.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,463
    Charles said:

    What's the best and worst airport hotel PBers have stayed in?

    There was a little motel bang next door to Hell Airport that I was once stuck in for a couple of days. Nothing to do but look at an empty vending machine
    There was an Alton? hotel, not far from Aberdeen that was quite special, back in the 90s

    The local joke was that it was converted from a prison. But changed to a hotel when the prison inspectors decided it was substandard.

    It just radiated grimness and despair.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,025
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    BBC News - Covid hotel quarantine 'to start on 15 February'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55935875

    It is quite absurd how long this scheme is taking to realise. Over the past 12 months, has the government not thought to perhaps have a few civil servants come up with such a plan , you know just in case....

    It may be significant that Nicola would not give details of her managed quarantine scheme announced by her yesterday, saying she is hoping to give more details next week

    It would be a welcome change if Boris and Nicola could, for once, agree a scheme rather than continual point scoring
    Hoiw do you know it's point scoring on Ms Sturgeon's side? SHe did a much better job of Christmas.
    I said it is better than point scoring, and as for Christmas all four nations had the same regulations, just allowing mixing on Christmas day only
    They did not and do not have the same regulations. Scotland was more restrictive even on Christmas Day.
    Scotland was certainly not more restrictive on Christmas Day than London and the SE
    yes it was , less people allowed (6 max)and limited to one house only and lockdown at midnight that day.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,911
    edited February 2021
    Okay, I found Heathrow traffic numbers for last year.
    How many hotel rooms do we reckon we need? 300k? Plus how many other airports?


    Source: https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/investor/reports-and-presentations/traffic-statistics/Heathrow_Monthly_Traffic_Statistics_Jan_2005_Dec_2020.xlsx
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,025
    Toms said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.

    I bought my GOBLIN in about 1975. It uses paper bags and, apart from the odd little mend, works just fine. My partner her modern Dyson is fairly crappy. Speaking with passion, sometimes older is better.
    Shark are good on wooden floors
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,932
    edited February 2021
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    BBC News - Covid hotel quarantine 'to start on 15 February'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55935875

    It is quite absurd how long this scheme is taking to realise. Over the past 12 months, has the government not thought to perhaps have a few civil servants come up with such a plan , you know just in case....

    It may be significant that Nicola would not give details of her managed quarantine scheme announced by her yesterday, saying she is hoping to give more details next week

    It would be a welcome change if Boris and Nicola could, for once, agree a scheme rather than continual point scoring
    Hoiw do you know it's point scoring on Ms Sturgeon's side? SHe did a much better job of Christmas.
    I said it is better than point scoring, and as for Christmas all four nations had the same regulations, just allowing mixing on Christmas day only
    They did not and do not have the same regulations. Scotland was more restrictive even on Christmas Day.
    Scotland was certainly not more restrictive on Christmas Day than London and the SE
    yes it was , less people allowed (6 max)and limited to one house only and lockdown at midnight that day.
    London and the SE was no mixing whatsoever on christmas day.

    Whether everyone followed that is another matter, but thats what the rules were.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,911
    edited February 2021
    Charles said:

    What's the best and worst airport hotel PBers have stayed in?

    There was a little motel bang next door to Hell Airport that I was once stuck in for a couple of days. Nothing to do but look at an empty vending machine
    Novotel Bangkok Airport for me, stuck there after a diversion. The hotel is slap bang between the two runways, every minute or so all the windows shake! And the bar shut at midnight!
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    Not a good look - what with Salmond.....
    https://twitter.com/ScottishSun/status/1357468062354702343?s=20
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,932
    edited February 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Okay, I found Heathrow traffic numbers for last year.
    How many hotel rooms do we reckon we need? 300k? Plus how many other airports?


    Source: https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/investor/reports-and-presentations/traffic-statistics/Heathrow_Monthly_Traffic_Statistics_Jan_2005_Dec_2020.xlsx

    Here's Auckland numbers as of December 2020.

    Auckland Airport November passenger numbers
    Rolling 12-month total Previous 12-month average ± %
    International 3,637,232 10,484,850 -65.3
    Transit movements 302,962 1,038,296 -70.8
    Domestic 5,186,148 9,564,976 -45.8
    Total 9,126,342 21,088,122 -56.7
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,463
    I asked about this one the other day - the evidence seems clear, including some astonishing admissions from the prosecuting lawyers.

    But why did it happen? Was it that someone thought he was the "wrong" person to get control of Rangers?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,712
    Sandpit said:

    Okay, I found Heathrow traffic numbers for last year.
    How many hotel rooms do we reckon we need? 300k? Plus how many other airports?


    Source: https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/investor/reports-and-presentations/traffic-statistics/Heathrow_Monthly_Traffic_Statistics_Jan_2005_Dec_2020.xlsx

    Airport quarantine kills the aviation industry. I don't think any airline can afford to repeat last year, unless a massive government bung.

    However necessary we feel a travel ban is, we have to recognise that not all travel is holidays. Some is essential family stuff for our large diaspora communities, both for Brits abroad and immigrants here.

    Any such policy needs a review date built in so that people can plan.
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    Sandpit said:

    Okay, I found Heathrow traffic numbers for last year.
    How many hotel rooms do we reckon we need? 300k? Plus how many other airports?


    Source: https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/investor/reports-and-presentations/traffic-statistics/Heathrow_Monthly_Traffic_Statistics_Jan_2005_Dec_2020.xlsx

    Of course if a hotel quarantine policy for all (barring freight) was implemented then traveller numbers would be slashed to a fraction of those numbers as only essential trips would be made.

    Critics use that as an argument against the policy. It should be an argument in favour.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,206
    felix said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.

    I bought a cordless one from Lidl Spain last year for 89€ - works great on our all tiled floors - very easy to clean /change filters etc. Outperforms our previous cordless Dyson by miles and around €350 less expensive. It laso looks good on the wall!
    What's wrong with sweeping hard floors? Much easier than hoovering...
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,206
    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    I doubt China would worry about protecting a building like this.
    https://twitter.com/swindonadver/status/1357418652514017286?s=21

    That's just Nimbys flailing around by the look of it.

    Though it could probably technically be converted to flats, it does not seem outstanding and as it is 60s ish it is probably full of asbestos. A normal podium / tower office block.
    Sooner it is razed to the ground the better, an absolute eyesore.
    Do we mean the building, or the whole of Swindon? Happy with either tbh, and I was born there...
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336
    edited February 2021
    Leon said:

    Have you ever been canvassing with a candidate, in a less than rich area? I have.

    It is pretty sobering. About every 3rd house you think, OMFG these people are deciding the future of the nation. They haven't got a clue. They can barely boil an egg.

    I love the idea of democracy but I wonder if it has peaked. I'm serious. First, we have the success of China, clearly out-performing the USA, in almost every way now (including pandemic-management, despite starting a pandemic). In China, the technocratic Party decides. but as the Party can take a longer view than any individual, the Party is wiser. This model becomes increasingly seductive to many, as America declines and China ascends. Cf Singapore. Basically a one party state which has beautifully married English Common Law to Chinese autocracy.

    Second, AI. How far away is the moment when a computer will make a better political choice than any average human? About 10 minutes, I reckon.

    The future will be special, neutral, bespoke voting robots, deciding our elections.

    I am serious. I think democracy, as we know it, is nearly done. The machines know better, that's why they fly our planes and will soon drive our cars. After that, they select our government

    Interesting to hear that you have been canvassing with the PPC in poorer areas. I'm sure your flint knapping is all the richer for it.

    I have done so. Many, many times. And generally, when faced with a canvasser (if they want to give you the time of day which many don't, obvs), I have found that 99% of people of whatever socio-economic grouping have thought and do think about it very carefully. It is their one shot at making a difference in an otherwise perhaps quite powerless existence.

    Perhaps it's also because they are away from the pub/their mates/their peers/the bridge club/their agent's office.

    But all give thoughtful answers to questions. And of course some of the most pig-ignorant of them all are those of the higher socio-economic groupings.

    As I'm sure you found also.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,911
    edited February 2021
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Okay, I found Heathrow traffic numbers for last year.
    How many hotel rooms do we reckon we need? 300k? Plus how many other airports?


    Source: https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/investor/reports-and-presentations/traffic-statistics/Heathrow_Monthly_Traffic_Statistics_Jan_2005_Dec_2020.xlsx

    Airport quarantine kills the aviation industry. I don't think any airline can afford to repeat last year, unless a massive government bung.

    However necessary we feel a travel ban is, we have to recognise that not all travel is holidays. Some is essential family stuff for our large diaspora communities, both for Brits abroad and immigrants here.

    Any such policy needs a review date built in so that people can plan.
    If travel is that essential then people will have no issue with quarantining afterwards.

    People moving around for ‘family reasons’ (other than funerals) are a huge part of the problem.

    Some of us living abroad haven’t seen our parents for over a year. Doing so isn’t ‘essential’ unless they’re dying.

    Airlines and tour operators can be dealt with by the various furlough and loan schemes available.
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    gealbhan said:

    felix said:

    gealbhan said:

    Good grief. The tone of the front pages. Seems a bit of a street party rush out of lockdown to me.

    What do I know? I know you can have 2 jabs and still get COVID. I’m the right side of 50 to get one, but I don’t play for Chesterfield so I haven’t seen anything yet. So I am still feeling rather vulnerable to be honest.

    When the whistle comes, and you go over the top to start walking slowly toward the enemy, I hope you don’t mind awfully if I just wait to see what happens to you?

    A report in spain today of an OPH with 7 new cases of patients twice vaccinated. With another 6 staff asymptomatic unvaccinated. The dangers seem pretty obvious although be interesting to see more detail.
    It’s the OPH to watch for isn’t it as litmus test, one jabbed and two? When it got in before it ran through it, when it gets in now will it not run through it.

    All eyes on the OPHs!
    Question is how many people were in the OPH? If there were anything between 50 and 100 people then 7 cases could well be correct for a vaccine of, say, 85% efficacy.

    It would be interesting to get details on these OPH cases. How many occupants? How long since 1st and 2nd jabs? How severe were the symptoms? It could be that the vaccine has worked well enough to prevent severe symptoms even if they do still get a mild case.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,329

    Site Admins - Please note I had to enter site through the vanilla forum route as using the www.politicalbetting.com entry route has been hijacked.

    I can no longer log on on my iphone. And even on the laptop that bloody annoying 3 spins thing comes up as often as the site.
  • Options
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    We will not have self driving cars within 10 years.

    Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

    You really think THESE guys won't be able to drive a car in ten years' time?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3KWM1kuAw


    Ten years ago, these robots would have seem magical. If not Satanically miraculous. Yours is a brave call.
    Correct, they will not.

    The problem of self driving cars is filled with a series of incredibly challenging hard problems. Over the last decade people have made tremendous strides defeating hard problem after hard problem only to discover there are yet more hard problems.

    AI is not magic, it is just an encoding of a human solution run on processors with far less computational power than the human brain.

    Likewise language translation. Automatic language translation is a forever improving field but we are still no closer to the death of the professional translator than we were a decade ago.

    There is an infinite number of hard problems between here and there.

    And as a society we are improved by meeting and beating those problems but they don't move us appreciably closer to the purported goal.
    lol.

    Would you seriously advise your, say, 16 year old child, to seek a career in "professional translation"?

    Of course not. We all know it is doomed. As with the car (discussed below) a few ultra-wealthy individuals may keep a human translator for the sheer, vulgar, blingy display value (like horses, or antique ink pens, or other outdated tech) but the vast majority of translation will be done by computer tech, which already, even at iPhone level, is now remarkably good at translating

    It's done. It is over. It will happen. The advantages of self driving electric cars in particular (near zero deaths, no drunk driving, zero pollution, an end to parking problems, forget insurance and MOTS, freeing of streets, greening of all cities) are so overwhelming they are near certain.

    Driverless cars... The advantages aren't questioned; the actual achievement, that's the issue.
    Hofstadter's law coined in 1979 said that the time when a computer beat a grandmaster at chess would always be ten years away, and Hofstadter was an unbelievably smart cookie. 1997, Deep Blue beats Kasparov.
    Well said. I think the moment a computer beat the best human chess player on the planet will be seen as pivotal, looking back. At the time it passed, almost unnoticed.

    FWIW I think computers passed the Turing Test (supposedly the litmus test of "plausibly sentient AI") several years ago
    More significant when it beat the best Go player.
    There are simply many, many more credible moves any top player can make in any situation. Often, the AI analysis will find several equally good, or separated by 0.1 stone (or point).
    Interestingly, it played only one move that no human would have previously considered. It simply didn't make mistakes. And added up a winnable position by fractions at a time.
    In other words. Humans had "solved" Go already.
    They hadn't solved human error.
    That really is the difference for full information games like chess or go, they dont make the mistakes humans do...for incomplete information games like poker they do less well
    ... but they're catching up https://www.forbes.com/sites/bernardmarr/2019/09/13/artificial-intelligence-masters-the-game-of-poker--what-does-that-mean-for-humans/

    As for self driving cars, I'd like a Tesla but would not go for 'autopilot'. However if Tesla does get there it has access to many more inputs from cameras etc than a mere human so could well be safer. I would imagine that they would have to be 'trained' on each country as driving styles, size of roads, layout of towns in different countries vary a lot from the US.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Okay, I found Heathrow traffic numbers for last year.
    How many hotel rooms do we reckon we need? 300k? Plus how many other airports?


    Source: https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/investor/reports-and-presentations/traffic-statistics/Heathrow_Monthly_Traffic_Statistics_Jan_2005_Dec_2020.xlsx

    Airport quarantine kills the aviation industry. I don't think any airline can afford to repeat last year, unless a massive government bung.

    However necessary we feel a travel ban is, we have to recognise that not all travel is holidays. Some is essential family stuff for our large diaspora communities, both for Brits abroad and immigrants here.

    Any such policy needs a review date built in so that people can plan.
    If travel is that essential then people will have no issue with quarantining afterwards.

    People moving around for ‘family reasons’ (other than funerals) are a huge part of the problem.

    Some of us living abroad haven’t seen our parents for over a year. Doing so isn’t ‘essential’ unless they’re dying.

    Airlines and tour operators can be dealt with by the various furlough and loan schemes available.
    Some of us not living abroad haven't seen our parents for almost a year. I feel for you mate, its hard.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    What's the best and worst airport hotel PBers have stayed in?

    There was a little motel bang next door to Hell Airport that I was once stuck in for a couple of days. Nothing to do but look at an empty vending machine
    Was the room heating set really, really hot in there?
    Hot enough that I wanted to roll in the snow I could see from the window
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,708
    Cyclefree said:

    Can I just say that automatic hoovers are the absolute pits. As are Dysons - really poorly designed and expensive for what they are.

    Finding a decent vacuum cleaner for hard flooring which actually picks up the dirt is harder than it seems. Lots of models but in my experience they all fall apart after a bit. I've tried G-Tech: fell to bits. My Bosch is now playing silly buggers.

    Ideally I'd like a cordless one for a quick clean (I have a Henry for a proper vacuum). I am currently doing research on the topic. Any tips gratefully received.

    Our Miele has been very good. Expensive but quiet, efficient and reliable.

    (Confession: Mrs P. does all the vacuuming, so my observations are hearsay but if it wasn't good, I'd have heard!)
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Have you ever been canvassing with a candidate, in a less than rich area? I have.

    It is pretty sobering. About every 3rd house you think, OMFG these people are deciding the future of the nation. They haven't got a clue. They can barely boil an egg.

    I love the idea of democracy but I wonder if it has peaked. I'm serious. First, we have the success of China, clearly out-performing the USA, in almost every way now (including pandemic-management, despite starting a pandemic). In China, the technocratic Party decides. but as the Party can take a longer view than any individual, the Party is wiser. This model becomes increasingly seductive to many, as America declines and China ascends. Cf Singapore. Basically a one party state which has beautifully married English Common Law to Chinese autocracy.

    Second, AI. How far away is the moment when a computer will make a better political choice than any average human? About 10 minutes, I reckon.

    The future will be special, neutral, bespoke voting robots, deciding our elections.

    I am serious. I think democracy, as we know it, is nearly done. The machines know better, that's why they fly our planes and will soon drive our cars. After that, they select our government

    Interesting to hear that you have been canvassing with the PPC in poorer areas. I'm sure your flint knapping is all the richer for it.

    I have done so. Many, many times. And generally, when faced with a canvasser (if they want to give you the time of day which many don't, obvs), I have found that 99% of people of whatever socio-economic grouping have thought and do think about it very carefully. It is their one shot at making a difference in an otherwise perhaps quite powerless existence.

    Perhaps it's also because they are away from the pub/their mates/their peers/the bridge club/their agent's office.

    But all give thoughtful answers to questions. And of course some of the most pig-ignorant of them all are those of the higher socio-economic groupings.

    As I'm sure you found also.
    Yep. Canvassing is a fascinating way to refresh one's devotion to democracy.

    During the darkest days of the Brexit shenanigans in Parliament we were canvassing for the all but inevitable coming election. The engagement with the debate was, frankly, better on the doorsteps. Far, far more nuance. And lots of previous Liberals wishing us luck as they were going to vote Tory 'for the first time in their life, because its democracy isn't it - you have to accept the result'.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,708
    DavidL said:

    Site Admins - Please note I had to enter site through the vanilla forum route as using the www.politicalbetting.com entry route has been hijacked.

    I can no longer log on on my iphone. And even on the laptop that bloody annoying 3 spins thing comes up as often as the site.
    Not helpful but it's working fine on my Macbook, so it's not a universal issue.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,708
    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Have you ever been canvassing with a candidate, in a less than rich area? I have.

    It is pretty sobering. About every 3rd house you think, OMFG these people are deciding the future of the nation. They haven't got a clue. They can barely boil an egg.

    I love the idea of democracy but I wonder if it has peaked. I'm serious. First, we have the success of China, clearly out-performing the USA, in almost every way now (including pandemic-management, despite starting a pandemic). In China, the technocratic Party decides. but as the Party can take a longer view than any individual, the Party is wiser. This model becomes increasingly seductive to many, as America declines and China ascends. Cf Singapore. Basically a one party state which has beautifully married English Common Law to Chinese autocracy.

    Second, AI. How far away is the moment when a computer will make a better political choice than any average human? About 10 minutes, I reckon.

    The future will be special, neutral, bespoke voting robots, deciding our elections.

    I am serious. I think democracy, as we know it, is nearly done. The machines know better, that's why they fly our planes and will soon drive our cars. After that, they select our government

    Interesting to hear that you have been canvassing with the PPC in poorer areas. I'm sure your flint knapping is all the richer for it.

    I have done so. Many, many times. And generally, when faced with a canvasser (if they want to give you the time of day which many don't, obvs), I have found that 99% of people of whatever socio-economic grouping have thought and do think about it very carefully. It is their one shot at making a difference in an otherwise perhaps quite powerless existence.

    Perhaps it's also because they are away from the pub/their mates/their peers/the bridge club/their agent's office.

    But all give thoughtful answers to questions. And of course some of the most pig-ignorant of them all are those of the higher socio-economic groupings.

    As I'm sure you found also.
    Yep. Canvassing is a fascinating way to refresh one's devotion to democracy.

    During the darkest days of the Brexit shenanigans in Parliament we were canvassing for the all but inevitable coming election. The engagement with the debate was, frankly, better on the doorsteps. Far, far more nuance. And lots of previous Liberals wishing us luck as they were going to vote Tory 'for the first time in their life, because its democracy isn't it - you have to accept the result'.
    We have never, ever had a canvasser knock on our door.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,329
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Have you ever been canvassing with a candidate, in a less than rich area? I have.

    It is pretty sobering. About every 3rd house you think, OMFG these people are deciding the future of the nation. They haven't got a clue. They can barely boil an egg.

    I love the idea of democracy but I wonder if it has peaked. I'm serious. First, we have the success of China, clearly out-performing the USA, in almost every way now (including pandemic-management, despite starting a pandemic). In China, the technocratic Party decides. but as the Party can take a longer view than any individual, the Party is wiser. This model becomes increasingly seductive to many, as America declines and China ascends. Cf Singapore. Basically a one party state which has beautifully married English Common Law to Chinese autocracy.

    Second, AI. How far away is the moment when a computer will make a better political choice than any average human? About 10 minutes, I reckon.

    The future will be special, neutral, bespoke voting robots, deciding our elections.

    I am serious. I think democracy, as we know it, is nearly done. The machines know better, that's why they fly our planes and will soon drive our cars. After that, they select our government

    Interesting to hear that you have been canvassing with the PPC in poorer areas. I'm sure your flint knapping is all the richer for it.

    I have done so. Many, many times. And generally, when faced with a canvasser (if they want to give you the time of day which many don't, obvs), I have found that 99% of people of whatever socio-economic grouping have thought and do think about it very carefully. It is their one shot at making a difference in an otherwise perhaps quite powerless existence.

    Perhaps it's also because they are away from the pub/their mates/their peers/the bridge club/their agent's office.

    But all give thoughtful answers to questions. And of course some of the most pig-ignorant of them all are those of the higher socio-economic groupings.

    As I'm sure you found also.
    That is almost as hyperbolic as @Leon's in the other direction. I still remember the guy who was going to vote against Scottish independence because of the way the SNP council had papered his kitchen. And another one who was voting no because he'd been banned from the local library.

    What I would say is that a lot of those I canvassed in such areas had focused on 1 thing that had a direct impact on their lives and had given it careful thought. For every bit of humour like the above there were as many genuinely thought provoking moments.

    The problem for democracy as I see it is that governments are increasingly powerless in the modern world and unable to change very much. For multinational companies tax in any one jurisdiction is becoming optional and it drives down the rates governments dare to claim. Increasingly this is the case with well heeled individuals as well. As these businesses become increasingly dominant in our economies the tax base is weakened to the point that governments are emasculated and have to do what they are told.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336
    edited February 2021
    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Have you ever been canvassing with a candidate, in a less than rich area? I have.

    It is pretty sobering. About every 3rd house you think, OMFG these people are deciding the future of the nation. They haven't got a clue. They can barely boil an egg.

    I love the idea of democracy but I wonder if it has peaked. I'm serious. First, we have the success of China, clearly out-performing the USA, in almost every way now (including pandemic-management, despite starting a pandemic). In China, the technocratic Party decides. but as the Party can take a longer view than any individual, the Party is wiser. This model becomes increasingly seductive to many, as America declines and China ascends. Cf Singapore. Basically a one party state which has beautifully married English Common Law to Chinese autocracy.

    Second, AI. How far away is the moment when a computer will make a better political choice than any average human? About 10 minutes, I reckon.

    The future will be special, neutral, bespoke voting robots, deciding our elections.

    I am serious. I think democracy, as we know it, is nearly done. The machines know better, that's why they fly our planes and will soon drive our cars. After that, they select our government

    Interesting to hear that you have been canvassing with the PPC in poorer areas. I'm sure your flint knapping is all the richer for it.

    I have done so. Many, many times. And generally, when faced with a canvasser (if they want to give you the time of day which many don't, obvs), I have found that 99% of people of whatever socio-economic grouping have thought and do think about it very carefully. It is their one shot at making a difference in an otherwise perhaps quite powerless existence.

    Perhaps it's also because they are away from the pub/their mates/their peers/the bridge club/their agent's office.

    But all give thoughtful answers to questions. And of course some of the most pig-ignorant of them all are those of the higher socio-economic groupings.

    As I'm sure you found also.
    Yep. Canvassing is a fascinating way to refresh one's devotion to democracy.

    During the darkest days of the Brexit shenanigans in Parliament we were canvassing for the all but inevitable coming election. The engagement with the debate was, frankly, better on the doorsteps. Far, far more nuance. And lots of previous Liberals wishing us luck as they were going to vote Tory 'for the first time in their life, because its democracy isn't it - you have to accept the result'.
    At the end of one long session (for Boris for Mayor if you can believe such a thing) I pushed something through a very nice looking house's letterbox and the bloke came running after me telling me couldn't I read, no junk mail, or whatever his sign said.

    Because I'd had it by that time, I returned a (slightly tired and emotional) mouthful about how dare you, junk mail indeed, democracy, freedom, people died, etc and he was not only contrite but he came to shake my hand and promised he would look at the flyer and make a decision with all the evidence in front of him.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Have you ever been canvassing with a candidate, in a less than rich area? I have.

    It is pretty sobering. About every 3rd house you think, OMFG these people are deciding the future of the nation. They haven't got a clue. They can barely boil an egg.

    I love the idea of democracy but I wonder if it has peaked. I'm serious. First, we have the success of China, clearly out-performing the USA, in almost every way now (including pandemic-management, despite starting a pandemic). In China, the technocratic Party decides. but as the Party can take a longer view than any individual, the Party is wiser. This model becomes increasingly seductive to many, as America declines and China ascends. Cf Singapore. Basically a one party state which has beautifully married English Common Law to Chinese autocracy.

    Second, AI. How far away is the moment when a computer will make a better political choice than any average human? About 10 minutes, I reckon.

    The future will be special, neutral, bespoke voting robots, deciding our elections.

    I am serious. I think democracy, as we know it, is nearly done. The machines know better, that's why they fly our planes and will soon drive our cars. After that, they select our government

    Interesting to hear that you have been canvassing with the PPC in poorer areas. I'm sure your flint knapping is all the richer for it.

    I have done so. Many, many times. And generally, when faced with a canvasser (if they want to give you the time of day which many don't, obvs), I have found that 99% of people of whatever socio-economic grouping have thought and do think about it very carefully. It is their one shot at making a difference in an otherwise perhaps quite powerless existence.

    Perhaps it's also because they are away from the pub/their mates/their peers/the bridge club/their agent's office.

    But all give thoughtful answers to questions. And of course some of the most pig-ignorant of them all are those of the higher socio-economic groupings.

    As I'm sure you found also.
    Yep. Canvassing is a fascinating way to refresh one's devotion to democracy.

    During the darkest days of the Brexit shenanigans in Parliament we were canvassing for the all but inevitable coming election. The engagement with the debate was, frankly, better on the doorsteps. Far, far more nuance. And lots of previous Liberals wishing us luck as they were going to vote Tory 'for the first time in their life, because its democracy isn't it - you have to accept the result'.
    We have never, ever had a canvasser knock on our door.
    No idea where you are but you would only be canvassed if it mattered and you were known to be a supporter to make sure you got out and voted as per your recorded preference.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,336
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Have you ever been canvassing with a candidate, in a less than rich area? I have.

    It is pretty sobering. About every 3rd house you think, OMFG these people are deciding the future of the nation. They haven't got a clue. They can barely boil an egg.

    I love the idea of democracy but I wonder if it has peaked. I'm serious. First, we have the success of China, clearly out-performing the USA, in almost every way now (including pandemic-management, despite starting a pandemic). In China, the technocratic Party decides. but as the Party can take a longer view than any individual, the Party is wiser. This model becomes increasingly seductive to many, as America declines and China ascends. Cf Singapore. Basically a one party state which has beautifully married English Common Law to Chinese autocracy.

    Second, AI. How far away is the moment when a computer will make a better political choice than any average human? About 10 minutes, I reckon.

    The future will be special, neutral, bespoke voting robots, deciding our elections.

    I am serious. I think democracy, as we know it, is nearly done. The machines know better, that's why they fly our planes and will soon drive our cars. After that, they select our government

    Interesting to hear that you have been canvassing with the PPC in poorer areas. I'm sure your flint knapping is all the richer for it.

    I have done so. Many, many times. And generally, when faced with a canvasser (if they want to give you the time of day which many don't, obvs), I have found that 99% of people of whatever socio-economic grouping have thought and do think about it very carefully. It is their one shot at making a difference in an otherwise perhaps quite powerless existence.

    Perhaps it's also because they are away from the pub/their mates/their peers/the bridge club/their agent's office.

    But all give thoughtful answers to questions. And of course some of the most pig-ignorant of them all are those of the higher socio-economic groupings.

    As I'm sure you found also.
    That is almost as hyperbolic as @Leon's in the other direction. I still remember the guy who was going to vote against Scottish independence because of the way the SNP council had papered his kitchen. And another one who was voting no because he'd been banned from the local library.

    What I would say is that a lot of those I canvassed in such areas had focused on 1 thing that had a direct impact on their lives and had given it careful thought. For every bit of humour like the above there were as many genuinely thought provoking moments.

    The problem for democracy as I see it is that governments are increasingly powerless in the modern world and unable to change very much. For multinational companies tax in any one jurisdiction is becoming optional and it drives down the rates governments dare to claim. Increasingly this is the case with well heeled individuals as well. As these businesses become increasingly dominant in our economies the tax base is weakened to the point that governments are emasculated and have to do what they are told.
    "What I would say is that a lot of those I canvassed in such areas had focused on 1 thing that had a direct impact on their lives".

    Welcome to politics.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,329

    Sandpit said:

    Okay, I found Heathrow traffic numbers for last year.
    How many hotel rooms do we reckon we need? 300k? Plus how many other airports?


    Source: https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/investor/reports-and-presentations/traffic-statistics/Heathrow_Monthly_Traffic_Statistics_Jan_2005_Dec_2020.xlsx

    Of course if a hotel quarantine policy for all (barring freight) was implemented then traveller numbers would be slashed to a fraction of those numbers as only essential trips would be made.

    Critics use that as an argument against the policy. It should be an argument in favour.
    Over 1m people through Heathrow in December? And people are still trying to claim that some relaxation on Christmas day was the cause of the carnage in January? I despair, I really do. If we didn't have vaccines society would be doomed.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,000

    None of this bodes well for how they will deal with the euro economic crisis after covid.
    You only have to look at Italy to discover how bad it's going to be.

    In a lot of places support for businesses has only been available from the Mafia attached to their usual terms and conditions.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,329
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Have you ever been canvassing with a candidate, in a less than rich area? I have.

    It is pretty sobering. About every 3rd house you think, OMFG these people are deciding the future of the nation. They haven't got a clue. They can barely boil an egg.

    I love the idea of democracy but I wonder if it has peaked. I'm serious. First, we have the success of China, clearly out-performing the USA, in almost every way now (including pandemic-management, despite starting a pandemic). In China, the technocratic Party decides. but as the Party can take a longer view than any individual, the Party is wiser. This model becomes increasingly seductive to many, as America declines and China ascends. Cf Singapore. Basically a one party state which has beautifully married English Common Law to Chinese autocracy.

    Second, AI. How far away is the moment when a computer will make a better political choice than any average human? About 10 minutes, I reckon.

    The future will be special, neutral, bespoke voting robots, deciding our elections.

    I am serious. I think democracy, as we know it, is nearly done. The machines know better, that's why they fly our planes and will soon drive our cars. After that, they select our government

    Interesting to hear that you have been canvassing with the PPC in poorer areas. I'm sure your flint knapping is all the richer for it.

    I have done so. Many, many times. And generally, when faced with a canvasser (if they want to give you the time of day which many don't, obvs), I have found that 99% of people of whatever socio-economic grouping have thought and do think about it very carefully. It is their one shot at making a difference in an otherwise perhaps quite powerless existence.

    Perhaps it's also because they are away from the pub/their mates/their peers/the bridge club/their agent's office.

    But all give thoughtful answers to questions. And of course some of the most pig-ignorant of them all are those of the higher socio-economic groupings.

    As I'm sure you found also.
    That is almost as hyperbolic as @Leon's in the other direction. I still remember the guy who was going to vote against Scottish independence because of the way the SNP council had papered his kitchen. And another one who was voting no because he'd been banned from the local library.

    What I would say is that a lot of those I canvassed in such areas had focused on 1 thing that had a direct impact on their lives and had given it careful thought. For every bit of humour like the above there were as many genuinely thought provoking moments.

    The problem for democracy as I see it is that governments are increasingly powerless in the modern world and unable to change very much. For multinational companies tax in any one jurisdiction is becoming optional and it drives down the rates governments dare to claim. Increasingly this is the case with well heeled individuals as well. As these businesses become increasingly dominant in our economies the tax base is weakened to the point that governments are emasculated and have to do what they are told.
    "What I would say is that a lot of those I canvassed in such areas had focused on 1 thing that had a direct impact on their lives".

    Welcome to politics.
    Indeed although the answer can sometimes be counter intuitive. In the 1992 election, for example, I found a lot of unemployed who were voting Tory for the first time in their lives because they believed the Tories was their best chance of getting a job. And they were probably right (I was canvassing for the Lib Dems).
This discussion has been closed.