Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
I'd be more inclined to consider it if you used the word accountable correctly. Just today today there was talk of them being ignored by No 10 so not even all powerful.
Yes, yet another vaccine with good scores. It does sound like an easily targeted virus.
The takeaway from R4 this lunchtime is that a shot of the AZN followed by a shot of the Sputnik (or vice versa) may be the best strategem.
I hate to say it but it looks like a lot of people might owe the old Ruskies an apology. There were a lot of people who were dissing the idea that the Russians could have developed a viable vaccine so quickly. Very glad, from a humanitarian point of view that it looks like they were wrong.
I'm not sure anyone was dissing their ability to produce a good vaccine - they have well-established expertise in this field. The question was about them rushing to deploy it before they had done proper Phase III trials.
I'd still like to see some independent trials conducted outside Russia. Also there is the issue of quality control when producing millions of doses.
They didn't do themselves any favour when they changed the efficacy within a day of new trial data from other vaccines came out, always to match it. There were also wild claims like we have already cracked mutant milky covid and testing it already within about 3 days of that news.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
We are not there yet but if (i) vaccines are in limited supply and (ii) the UK has vaccinated sufficiently to control the virus and substantially reopen, it not IMMORAL (in fact it is quite the contrary) to argue that the priority should then be in countries where the virus is raging.
Furthermore this is the most rational approach for a global pandemic. It must be defeated globally otherwise it will be back to bite us with vicious imported mutations and we will be stuck in this twilight world for years.
The header is great but is playing to the gallery.
As Cyclefree and others have said, it would be 100% immoral.
The UK vaccines are owned collectively by the UK population, who as both citizens and taxpayers have paid for and are entitled to receive their share. To take away that share from the younger half without their consent - as both you and the WHO have proposed - is to perpetrate a theft upon them, plain and simple. And not just the usual socialist theft of income or assets - which is bad enough, but which after all is only money - but a theft of their freedom, their physical and mental health, their ability to breathe easily and live normal lives.
That the proponents of such a theft include those who would receive their doses themselves before merrily giving away those of others is more than immoral - it's sick. I don't see any of them volunteering to have their doses sent overseas right now to protect the elderly in poor countries with no healthcare system at all, which is what they would be arguing for if they wished to accept the logical consequences of their lofty 'moral' stance rather than have the young pay the price for their ideals.
Congratulations on embracing the idea of collectivist ownership in a domestic context. I'll look for you to apply this in other parts of our national life.
Otherwise, absolute hogwash.
(i) When we have the virus under control, the priority should be switched to the global effort.
(ii) We should not think about the global effort until we have vaccinated every single person in the UK.
Neither of these positions are immoral. Your perspective depends on your answers to various questions. What is the duty of a government? What is the right balance between national and international goals and obligations? For example, is it immoral to spend on foreign aid while we still have poverty here? What if global poverty were contagious and could be spread by human contact? Would that change things? What is meant by enlightened self-interest? Etc etc.
I've ignored the stupid personalizing stuff at the end. Like I said before, it's on the level of "Donate to HMRC then" as a response to somebody arguing for higher taxes. I just have no time for it.
I also look forward to you embracing the principle of 'I'm All Right, Jack' in other areas of national life, which you have so enthusiastically done in this case.
I get it - antinationalism has so distorted your moral sense that the very idea of first helping British people in need (other than yourself, of course) is anathema, and fucking them over for the sake of just about anyone else on the planet is a virtue. Congratulations.
And no wonder you have no time for the 'stupid personalizing stuff', because it exposes your position as the bankrupt hypocrisy it is. At least have the courage of your convictions and insist that you'll refuse the jab until all the people you want to give other people's doses to have had theirs. But you won't - not in a million years.
Truly pathetic. My view has zero to do with whether I personally get a jab or not. I haven't as yet and won't for quite a while. And if before then the government announces my wait will be longer because of a priority shift to places where the need is greater, I will be ok with that. That's the truth. I'm sorry if this makes you feel like a mean-spirited, entitled "me first" little shit. Perhaps you are.
You are explicitly endorsing a plan that will mean you are personally protected, while those younger than you can go fuck themselves.
I don't know about you, but that sounds like the position of a selfish little shit to me.
I'm not endorsing any plan!
I'm merely departing from the majority view that - come what may and regardless of circumstances - the UK should not share its vaccines with anyone else until every single person in the UK who wants a jab has had a jab.
That is not a stupid view. Or immoral. Or selfish. Or hypocritical. Or any of the other epithets you've been gaily throwing around.
What it is is MY view. And I've explained why I hold it.
ZOE app new cases number down 6% again today, 23% down in last 4 days. Official cases figure looked like it was starting to find the slowdown in fall ZOE showed last week in yesterday's figures, but based on this the reduction should pick up pace again pretty quick
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
Anyone wanting to maintain lockdown indefinitely would need to ensure cases, hospitalisations and deaths remained high, for example by: (i) not investing in vaccine research and development (ii) failing to order and distribute vaccines that did nonetheless become available (iii) encouraging people to ignore lockdowns, to maintain spread (iv) failing to monitor and react to new more infectious strains, for example by specifically not testing in areas where new strains had been discovered
So I guess we must applaud the government for hiding their intentions so well by doing the opposite of all the above while, apparently, desiring endless lockdown.
(You could get the EU on the hook for (i) and (ii) at least, but personally I normally favour incompetence over malice. Hat tip to Cummings to (iii) too, of course...)
It strikes me that there are two different, and not easily reconcilable, ideologies at the heart of this government (and on PB): Global Britain, and Britain First. These ideologies are being played out in the vaccination debate, on post-Brexit Britain, on Scottish nationalism (England First, rather than Britain First), and elsewhere in government.
So Global Britain is the outward-looking, vaccine sharing, Liz Truss trade vision, Hong Kong migrants welcoming type of vision that I suspect the PM favours.
Britain First is the vaccine hoarding, EU-hating, migrant Channel-crossing anxious, sod off Scotland, nationalistic vision of much of the Tory Party membership and beloved by most of the tabloids.
While both visions are represented by PB Tories, being the civilised bunch they are most favour Global Britain.
I suspect the government will struggle to hold this coalition together as time goes on, and it gives opposition parties an opportunity to (to coin a phrase) develop a third way that mediates between, and away from, these stark choices.
Just to confirm I am very much in the Global Britain cohort and credit Liz Truss for her successes and her formal application yesterday to join TPP
Does anyone have an estimate for how long this may take?
Is performative xenophobia better or worse than just xenophobia?
That's also a rather silly tweet. Being in the EU, vaccines aside, is probably in our better interest but its certainly not merely a trade bloc. That's part of its pitch, about how much more integrated it is than a trade bloc.
Brexit supporters largely support free trade, were reluctant to get rid of the free trade aspects of the EU as a trade association, and many oppose protectionism like the EU protectionism against some of the world's poorest people. The vote gave everyone an impossible forced choice between two highly imperfect situations when a large majority wanted a reformed EU - not on the ballot.
I don't think this is right at all. Sure the elite Brexit supporters want free trade but the Brexit core in the red wall wants protectionism. They want their jobs protected and manufacturing brought back to the UK.
We aren't going to have protectionism.
It's overly simplistic for you and HYUFD to say the red wall wants protectionism or they want a halt to migration.
People want to be listened to, respected and have their lives improve. How that happens isn't as significant as that it does. Most people aren't political extremist obsessives one way or another.
Spot on.
The debate has been wrecked by the myth that there are 17 million extremists in the UK, all voting Brexit. Nearly all Remain and Leave voters are moderates.
Nearly all Leave voters are moderates. Almost a 5th of Leave voters are strong supporters of Donald Trump. Can you square that circle?
80% is not far off "nearly all"?
Circle is squared thus:
If you count as extremist:
Everyone who votes Labour under extreme left leadership of Corbyn and Everyone who votes Brexit and Everyone who has some degree of support for Trump
you get to an implausibly high number, making no sense of the actual nature of our communities and our actual day to day experience.
So you have to assume that this sort of counting is in some way mistaken and try to work out what. The thesis that the UK is in fact riddled with multitudinous millions of secret lefty revolutionaries and fascis wielding rightists makes no sense of what it feels like in the street and the home and the vax queue.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
There is a less extreme position to be taken - it's perfectly possible for members of SAGE to be slightly too taken up with the importance of their task, and a little too negligent of factors which fall outside it like the economy or quality of life. They would not be human if they weren't, on some level, quite enjoying being so influential right now, whilst still clearly wishing it had never happened like any reasonable person.
My tuppence worth, borders definitely, schools a lot trickier - the Guernsey outbreak has had significant educational transmission, with B117 it may be harder - but a tough call which I don't envy any of them....
So even taking into account that it isn't schools back on the 22nd to begin with, it's nurseries and childcare this seems like an insane gamble by Sturgeon.
Much like going full reopening last August seemed uncharacteristically rash for #TheSturge this seems once gain breathtakingly brisk.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Human beings have many many needs that complement the will to power. People on SAGE want this over as quickly as we do. There is no evidence they are "relishing the massice unnacountable power". Some unnamed source of Robert Peston a consensus within SAGE, or elsewhere, does not make. Even on your own case SAGE do not rule the world outside the UK.
For Philip Thompson and all the other vaccine worshipers out there.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
The authoritarian medics are already preparing the post vaccine ground for eternal lockdown. Vaccines, as I commented recently, are little more than tractor stats.
How will Johnson break this to a public that expects to be free soon?
Yes, it will be just like food rationing cards. A temporary measure for WW2 they said, but here we still are.
Rationing continued for seven years after WW2.
Actually, in the interests of accuracy it continued for nine years after WW2 - or, to be exact, for seven years after the great famine of 1947.
After the Biden conversation photo I thought the flag war was dying down, but now I see we are moving into prop comedy. I can't wait to see what Keir has in store next time.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No - existing vaccines will work to some extent, and probably prevent severe disease. Vaccines will be tweaked and likely the existing winter flu programme gets added a covid component too, matched to the most prevalent strain. With mRNA, can be done very quickly (4-6 weeks from sequencing was the estimate, not sure about bulk though).
Indeed, from the get go there has been some evidence that the common cold coronaviruses provided some level of protection against SARS-CoV-2. There is no reason to believe that there would be absolutely no level of cross protection at a societal level between SARS-CoV-2 strains.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No - existing vaccines will work to some extent, and probably prevent severe disease. Vaccines will be tweaked and likely the existing winter flu programme gets added a covid component too, matched to the most prevalent strain. With mRNA, can be done very quickly (4-6 weeks from sequencing was the estimate, not sure about bulk though).
Indeed, from the get go there has been some evidence that the common cold coronaviruses provided some level of protection against SARS-CoV-2. There is no reason to believe that there would be absolutely no level of cross protection at a societal level between SARS-CoV-2 strains.
COVID-19 will likely be with us forever. Here's how we'll live with it.
After the Biden conversation photo I thought the flag war was dying down, but now I see we are moving into prop comedy. I can't wait to see what Keir has in store next time.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Human beings have many many needs that complement the will to power. People on SAGE want this over as quickly as we do. There is no evidence they are "relishing the massice unnacountable power". Some unnamed source of Robert Peston a consensus within SAGE, or elsewhere, does not make. Even on your own case SAGE do not rule the world outside the UK.
Look at their rhetoric today. Look at it. Not from journalists, from them. Stoked up with panic and fear. To the max. These are simply not the words of people who want this over as quickly as we do. They cannot be.
The words of people who want this over quickly would be to the effect of 'we've got this covered'
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No - existing vaccines will work to some extent, and probably prevent severe disease. Vaccines will be tweaked and likely the existing winter flu programme gets added a covid component too, matched to the most prevalent strain. With mRNA, can be done very quickly (4-6 weeks from sequencing was the estimate, not sure about bulk though).
OK if the authorities think vaccines are the answer, then why the massive dose of fear porn we are getting from Hancock and SAGE today? why the 'testing surge'. Why the doomsday warnings about staying home and strict observance? why the tip of the iceberg! stuff from SAGE.
These are not the actions of people who believe vaccines are the answer. They simply are not. They cannot be. Their responses would be far, far more sanguine.
I can't speak for what they believe. However there are more than one approach to disease suppression. One is to enforce as much isolation as possible - lockdown, to avoid the opportunity for the virus to spread. Simple concept, fewer interactions, fewer new cases. Another is to prevent a dangerous virus from reaching the country, or if it gets here stamping on it as fast as possible. NZ is one example of a country that did that with the original covid outbreak. Its not wrong to believe that mass vaccination against a currently endemic virus is the best approach and still seek to stamp out potentially more dangerous variants. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. I am confident the current vaccines will have some efficacy against the new variants, but if they can be stopped by other measures, then I am all for that.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
It appears to have been placed there as a temporary 'screen' between Johnson and Patel. Doesn't look like a comprehensive solution to aerosol transmission, as it's not that high, but probably better than nothing.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
There is a less extreme position to be taken - it's perfectly possible for members of SAGE to be slightly too taken up with the importance of their task, and a little too negligent of factors which fall outside it like the economy or quality of life. They would not be human if they weren't, on some level, quite enjoying being so influential right now, whilst still clearly wishing it had never happened like any reasonable person.
An economic collapse would devastate science and scientists as much as anyone else. Do you think their quality of life is that great at the moment?
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No - existing vaccines will work to some extent, and probably prevent severe disease. Vaccines will be tweaked and likely the existing winter flu programme gets added a covid component too, matched to the most prevalent strain. With mRNA, can be done very quickly (4-6 weeks from sequencing was the estimate, not sure about bulk though).
OK if the authorities think vaccines are the answer, then why the massive dose of fear porn we are getting from Hancock and SAGE today? why the 'testing surge'. Why the doomsday warnings about staying home and strict observance? why the tip of the iceberg! stuff from SAGE.
These are not the actions of people who believe vaccines are the answer. They simply are not. They cannot be. Their responses would be far, far more sanguine.
Because until the pandemic is over being sanguine just makes problems worse not better.
We still operate on a basis of stretched hospitals and mass case numbers. We need to get them down - fast. Once they're down and once the vaccine is rolled out then something would have to go catastrophically wrong to have a third wave. But until then, we're vulnerable.
Dublin felt that British officials were helpfully restrained in their response, knowing that the Taoiseach was trying to calm the unfolding crisis. By 9.30pm Irish time, the Article 16 element had been removed, and a statement to this effect issued by the Commission.
Considerable damage has been done. The Government in Dublin had been, since the beginning of January, trying to massage the mounting anger in Northern Ireland about the effects of the protocol.
"The actions on Friday undermined all the people who were working to defend the protocol," says an Irish official. "The idea that every time we hit a snag on the protocol we start waving Article 16 around is foolish."
We are not there yet but if (i) vaccines are in limited supply and (ii) the UK has vaccinated sufficiently to control the virus and substantially reopen, it not IMMORAL (in fact it is quite the contrary) to argue that the priority should then be in countries where the virus is raging.
Furthermore this is the most rational approach for a global pandemic. It must be defeated globally otherwise it will be back to bite us with vicious imported mutations and we will be stuck in this twilight world for years.
The header is great but is playing to the gallery.
As Cyclefree and others have said, it would be 100% immoral.
The UK vaccines are owned collectively by the UK population, who as both citizens and taxpayers have paid for and are entitled to receive their share. To take away that share from the younger half without their consent - as both you and the WHO have proposed - is to perpetrate a theft upon them, plain and simple. And not just the usual socialist theft of income or assets - which is bad enough, but which after all is only money - but a theft of their freedom, their physical and mental health, their ability to breathe easily and live normal lives.
That the proponents of such a theft include those who would receive their doses themselves before merrily giving away those of others is more than immoral - it's sick. I don't see any of them volunteering to have their doses sent overseas right now to protect the elderly in poor countries with no healthcare system at all, which is what they would be arguing for if they wished to accept the logical consequences of their lofty 'moral' stance rather than have the young pay the price for their ideals.
Congratulations on embracing the idea of collectivist ownership in a domestic context. I'll look for you to apply this in other parts of our national life.
Otherwise, absolute hogwash.
(i) When we have the virus under control, the priority should be switched to the global effort.
(ii) We should not think about the global effort until we have vaccinated every single person in the UK.
Neither of these positions are immoral. Your perspective depends on your answers to various questions. What is the duty of a government? What is the right balance between national and international goals and obligations? For example, is it immoral to spend on foreign aid while we still have poverty here? What if global poverty were contagious and could be spread by human contact? Would that change things? What is meant by enlightened self-interest? Etc etc.
I've ignored the stupid personalizing stuff at the end. Like I said before, it's on the level of "Donate to HMRC then" as a response to somebody arguing for higher taxes. I just have no time for it.
I also look forward to you embracing the principle of 'I'm All Right, Jack' in other areas of national life, which you have so enthusiastically done in this case.
I get it - antinationalism has so distorted your moral sense that the very idea of first helping British people in need (other than yourself, of course) is anathema, and fucking them over for the sake of just about anyone else on the planet is a virtue. Congratulations.
And no wonder you have no time for the 'stupid personalizing stuff', because it exposes your position as the bankrupt hypocrisy it is. At least have the courage of your convictions and insist that you'll refuse the jab until all the people you want to give other people's doses to have had theirs. But you won't - not in a million years.
Truly pathetic. My view has zero to do with whether I personally get a jab or not. I haven't as yet and won't for quite a while. And if before then the government announces my wait will be longer because of a priority shift to places where the need is greater, I will be ok with that. That's the truth. I'm sorry if this makes you feel like a mean-spirited, entitled "me first" little shit. Perhaps you are.
You are explicitly endorsing a plan that will mean you are personally protected, while those younger than you can go fuck themselves.
I don't know about you, but that sounds like the position of a selfish little shit to me.
I'm not endorsing any plan!
I'm merely departing from the majority view that - come what may and regardless of circumstances - the UK should not share its vaccines with anyone else until every single person in the UK who wants a jab has had a jab.
That is not a stupid view. Or immoral. Or selfish. Or hypocritical. Or any of the other epithets you've been gaily throwing around.
What it is is MY view. And I've explained why I hold it.
Your first two sentences contradict one another, but never mind. You're entitled to your view, but what you're not entitled to is other people's doses of vaccine. I've frankly had enough of wrangling over it for now.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
The logical conclusion of @contrarian's line of thought has to be the dissolution of democracy, because in the real world, lockdowns are not vote winners.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Human beings have many many needs that complement the will to power. People on SAGE want this over as quickly as we do. There is no evidence they are "relishing the massice unnacountable power". Some unnamed source of Robert Peston a consensus within SAGE, or elsewhere, does not make. Even on your own case SAGE do not rule the world outside the UK.
Look at their rhetoric today. Look at it. Not from journalists, from them. Stoked up with panic and fear. To the max. These are simply not the words of people who want this over as quickly as we do. They cannot be.
The words of people who want this over quickly would be to the effect of 'we've got this covered'
Its the opposite of that.
You are pretty much explicitly demanding to be treated like a five year old. One tells adults the truth, not whatever is likely to shut them up for three minutes.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Human beings have many many needs that complement the will to power. People on SAGE want this over as quickly as we do. There is no evidence they are "relishing the massice unnacountable power". Some unnamed source of Robert Peston a consensus within SAGE, or elsewhere, does not make. Even on your own case SAGE do not rule the world outside the UK.
Pesto actually heard about SAGE's deliberations from an Albanian Uber driver.
ZOE app new cases number down 6% again today, 23% down in last 4 days. Official cases figure looked like it was starting to find the slowdown in fall ZOE showed last week in yesterday's figures, but based on this the reduction should pick up pace again pretty quick
This is Tuesday.
What kind of panic do we want to have when the numbers come out? Please form an orderly queue to your chosen panic spot.
A victorious war leader needs aircraft carriers and flags.
Once Covid is vanquished forever, perhaps we could have a Putinesque military parade to celebrate.
I was looking at some of the photos on UvdL's twitter stream of the various zoom meetings she has been having. EU flags bloody everywhere. I think the EU Council president won with about six massive ones behind him.
My tuppence worth, borders definitely, schools a lot trickier - the Guernsey outbreak has had significant educational transmission, with B117 it may be harder - but a tough call which I don't envy any of them....
So even taking into account that it isn't schools back on the 22nd to begin with, it's nurseries and childcare this seems like an insane gamble by Sturgeon.
Much like going full reopening last August seemed uncharacteristically rash for #TheSturge this seems once gain breathtakingly brisk.
Isn't childcare open in England?
If so, then how exactly is she reopening anything before England if that's the extent of it?
On WATO the interviewee after the Sputnik chap remarked that it was a bit rich him calling for international collaboration when only a month ago he was suggesting Astra Zeneca would turn you into a chimp....
Very few over 60's in the Sputnik again. The two disallowed deaths in the treatment group raises an eyebrow! I would really want to know how they were removed from the results.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
The logical conclusion of @contrarian's line of thought has to be the dissolution of democracy, because in the real world, lockdowns are not vote winners.
They are vote winners at the moment. That`s the terrifying point.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
The logical conclusion of @contrarian's line of thought has to be the dissolution of democracy, because in the real world, lockdowns are not vote winners.
Well, the government has already postponed democracy, and contemplated postponing it again this year, and may still do so.
He's not a new entrant, though. He has an extensive and much-enjoyed portfolio of idiotic tweets.
I half-defended one of his tweets a while back when his tweets were first posted on here (at least, first I saw - I think he was making the point that only Denmark was definitely suffering from a lack of supply at that point and the problems elsewhere in the EU were at that point with countries' getting needles into arms rather than EU-level procurement).
For the avoidance of doubt, having now seen much more of his work, I agree that he's an idiot.
He's not a new entrant, though. He has an extensive and much-enjoyed portfolio of idiotic tweets.
I half-defended one of his tweets a while back when his tweets were first posted on here (at least, first I saw - I think he was making the point that only Denmark was definitely suffering from a lack of supply at that point and the problems elsewhere in the EU were at that point with countries' getting needles into arms rather than EU-level procurement).
For the avoidance of doubt, having now seen much more of his work, I agree that he's an idiot.
He isn't so much an idiot, as being deliberately misleading, which is far worse.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
The logical conclusion of @contrarian's line of thought has to be the dissolution of democracy, because in the real world, lockdowns are not vote winners.
They are at the moment. That`s the terrifying point.
Lockdowns are vote winners right now because people have been dying and hospitals are (or were) at capacity.
Guess what?
When hospitalisations and case numbers are low, then they won't be popular.
Yes, yet another vaccine with good scores. It does sound like an easily targeted virus.
The takeaway from R4 this lunchtime is that a shot of the AZN followed by a shot of the Sputnik (or vice versa) may be the best strategem.
I hate to say it but it looks like a lot of people might owe the old Ruskies an apology. There were a lot of people who were dissing the idea that the Russians could have developed a viable vaccine so quickly. Very glad, from a humanitarian point of view that it looks like they were wrong.
Be prepared to be trampled underfoot by the crowd rushing to make that apology.
I seem to recall @YBarddCwsc saying early on that it would be dumb to dismiss Russian science whatever one thought of the government.
Wasn't the criticism mostly that they started using it (or claimed that they were) before the PIII trial results? So the fear was that it wasn't properly tested, unlike the processes for Pfizer and AZN and so (i) had unproven benefits and (ii) if it was shown to be not very effective or adverse effects emerged that were not apparent in the earlier stage trials then it would undermine acceptance of other, properly tested, Covid vaccines.
The UK and US could have started using Pfizer and AZN at a similar time point and - given what we now know from the trials - that would have not been a bad thing. But we didn't know that at the time and neither did Russia.
That's right - it looked frankly reckless. But it's turned out to be lucky. Similar in principle to our releasing AZ/Oxford for the elderly without enough trial data, because it looked likely to be OK - which also looks as though it's turning out right, and the German caution probably wrong.
Everyone is making risk assessments throughout this, and I agree that there's some dumb xenophobia out there, and nobody is guaranteed to be right. IIRC Foxy pointed out the similarity of the Russian and Oxford vaccine design early on.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
The logical conclusion of @contrarian's line of thought has to be the dissolution of democracy, because in the real world, lockdowns are not vote winners.
Well, the government has already postponed democracy, and contemplated postponing it again this year, and may still do so.
Do you have any idea how they are going to get around the Fixed Term Parliament Act? Maybe by declaring martial law?
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
The logical conclusion of @contrarian's line of thought has to be the dissolution of democracy, because in the real world, lockdowns are not vote winners.
They are at the moment. That`s the terrifying point.
Lockdowns are vote winners right now because people have been dying and hospitals are (or were) at capacity.
Guess what?
When hospitalisations and case numbers are low, then they won't be popular.
Hope you are right. I may cut out and keep your post and give it an airing in the summer.
The next update to the iPhone operating system will let owners use a face scan to unlock their handsets even when wearing a mask - but there is one big caveat. Users also need to be wearing one of Apple's more recent smartwatches.
Whilst the side of me that is very much an SNP non-fan says 'ouch' and sort of enjoys that, I actually don't think it's a good idea, because the public offer of help makes accepting that help harder for Sturgeon. She might have accepted more military involvement (if the acceleration of the Scottish Vacc. campaign proves marginal or short-lived), but now it looks like even more of an embarrassing climb down if she does so.
We are not there yet but if (i) vaccines are in limited supply and (ii) the UK has vaccinated sufficiently to control the virus and substantially reopen, it not IMMORAL (in fact it is quite the contrary) to argue that the priority should then be in countries where the virus is raging.
Furthermore this is the most rational approach for a global pandemic. It must be defeated globally otherwise it will be back to bite us with vicious imported mutations and we will be stuck in this twilight world for years.
The header is great but is playing to the gallery.
As Cyclefree and others have said, it would be 100% immoral.
The UK vaccines are owned collectively by the UK population, who as both citizens and taxpayers have paid for and are entitled to receive their share. To take away that share from the younger half without their consent - as both you and the WHO have proposed - is to perpetrate a theft upon them, plain and simple. And not just the usual socialist theft of income or assets - which is bad enough, but which after all is only money - but a theft of their freedom, their physical and mental health, their ability to breathe easily and live normal lives.
That the proponents of such a theft include those who would receive their doses themselves before merrily giving away those of others is more than immoral - it's sick. I don't see any of them volunteering to have their doses sent overseas right now to protect the elderly in poor countries with no healthcare system at all, which is what they would be arguing for if they wished to accept the logical consequences of their lofty 'moral' stance rather than have the young pay the price for their ideals.
Congratulations on embracing the idea of collectivist ownership in a domestic context. I'll look for you to apply this in other parts of our national life.
Otherwise, absolute hogwash.
(i) When we have the virus under control, the priority should be switched to the global effort.
(ii) We should not think about the global effort until we have vaccinated every single person in the UK.
Neither of these positions are immoral. Your perspective depends on your answers to various questions. What is the duty of a government? What is the right balance between national and international goals and obligations? For example, is it immoral to spend on foreign aid while we still have poverty here? What if global poverty were contagious and could be spread by human contact? Would that change things? What is meant by enlightened self-interest? Etc etc.
I've ignored the stupid personalizing stuff at the end. Like I said before, it's on the level of "Donate to HMRC then" as a response to somebody arguing for higher taxes. I just have no time for it.
I also look forward to you embracing the principle of 'I'm All Right, Jack' in other areas of national life, which you have so enthusiastically done in this case.
I get it - antinationalism has so distorted your moral sense that the very idea of first helping British people in need (other than yourself, of course) is anathema, and fucking them over for the sake of just about anyone else on the planet is a virtue. Congratulations.
And no wonder you have no time for the 'stupid personalizing stuff', because it exposes your position as the bankrupt hypocrisy it is. At least have the courage of your convictions and insist that you'll refuse the jab until all the people you want to give other people's doses to have had theirs. But you won't - not in a million years.
Truly pathetic. My view has zero to do with whether I personally get a jab or not. I haven't as yet and won't for quite a while. And if before then the government announces my wait will be longer because of a priority shift to some places where the need is greater, I will be ok with that. That's the truth. I'm sorry if this makes you feel like a mean spirited, entitled "me first" little shit. Perhaps you are.
Glad you said that (the first bit). Cleared up a confusion. April/May for both of us I think. I couldn`t understand why some posters were saying that you had already been vaccinated.
People were thinking I was 85. But, yes, I'm more your sort of vintage. Touch nearer to "going over" but ballpark.
Why did posters think you were 85? Were you yanking their chain?
It was an odd one. I had an exchange with pagan ages ago - maybe a full year - and he said how old was I because iho I was coming over as a airhead student union type. I did a flip and silly answer back. 85. Ho ho. Take that pagan. It obviously got filed away and remembered. Then on a thread the other day there were scenes and when I logged on after a break I found that a general revulsion had swept the Board that this sanctimonious old leftist geezer - moi - had had his British jab and was now seeking to deny it to other younger Brits in favour of saving elderly Italians.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
The logical conclusion of @contrarian's line of thought has to be the dissolution of democracy, because in the real world, lockdowns are not vote winners.
They are at the moment. That`s the terrifying point.
Lockdowns are vote winners right now because people have been dying and hospitals are (or were) at capacity.
Guess what?
When hospitalisations and case numbers are low, then they won't be popular.
Hope you are right. I may cut out and keep your post and give it an airing in the summer.
Do that.
By the way the Australians got rid of their lockdown after they got rid of CV19 (as did the Chinese and the New Zealanders and Hong Kong). What is it you think is different about the UK that makes the politicians uniquely desperate to do something incredibly unpopular?
That's really not true. Pfizer's vaccine is now being manufactured under license by Novartis and Sanofi, and that's in addition to their own production facilties. Bayer has started manufacturing CureVac under license. AstraZeneca has plants in the EU making their vaccine.
The EU will be a net exporter of vaccines - I would reckon - by early in Q2.
The next update to the iPhone operating system will let owners use a face scan to unlock their handsets even when wearing a mask - but there is one big caveat. Users also need to be wearing one of Apple's more recent smartwatches.
ZOE app new cases number down 6% again today, 23% down in last 4 days. Official cases figure looked like it was starting to find the slowdown in fall ZOE showed last week in yesterday's figures, but based on this the reduction should pick up pace again pretty quick
This is Tuesday.
What kind of panic do we want to have when the numbers come out? Please form an orderly queue to your chosen panic spot.
Flags, tea and biscuits will be provided.
Avoiding moronically referring to it as "Murder Tuesday" would be a welcome first step.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
The logical conclusion of @contrarian's line of thought has to be the dissolution of democracy, because in the real world, lockdowns are not vote winners.
They are at the moment. That`s the terrifying point.
Lockdowns are vote winners right now because people have been dying and hospitals are (or were) at capacity.
Guess what?
When hospitalisations and case numbers are low, then they won't be popular.
Hope you are right. I may cut out and keep your post and give it an airing in the summer.
Do that.
By the way the Australians got rid of their lockdown after they got rid of CV19 (as did the Chinese and the New Zealanders and Hong Kong). What is it you think is different about the UK that makes the politicians uniquely desperate to do something incredibly unpopular?
The Indians and even the South Africans are easing theirs too.
We are not there yet but if (i) vaccines are in limited supply and (ii) the UK has vaccinated sufficiently to control the virus and substantially reopen, it not IMMORAL (in fact it is quite the contrary) to argue that the priority should then be in countries where the virus is raging.
Furthermore this is the most rational approach for a global pandemic. It must be defeated globally otherwise it will be back to bite us with vicious imported mutations and we will be stuck in this twilight world for years.
The header is great but is playing to the gallery.
As Cyclefree and others have said, it would be 100% immoral.
The UK vaccines are owned collectively by the UK population, who as both citizens and taxpayers have paid for and are entitled to receive their share. To take away that share from the younger half without their consent - as both you and the WHO have proposed - is to perpetrate a theft upon them, plain and simple. And not just the usual socialist theft of income or assets - which is bad enough, but which after all is only money - but a theft of their freedom, their physical and mental health, their ability to breathe easily and live normal lives.
That the proponents of such a theft include those who would receive their doses themselves before merrily giving away those of others is more than immoral - it's sick. I don't see any of them volunteering to have their doses sent overseas right now to protect the elderly in poor countries with no healthcare system at all, which is what they would be arguing for if they wished to accept the logical consequences of their lofty 'moral' stance rather than have the young pay the price for their ideals.
Congratulations on embracing the idea of collectivist ownership in a domestic context. I'll look for you to apply this in other parts of our national life.
Otherwise, absolute hogwash.
(i) When we have the virus under control, the priority should be switched to the global effort.
(ii) We should not think about the global effort until we have vaccinated every single person in the UK.
Neither of these positions are immoral. Your perspective depends on your answers to various questions. What is the duty of a government? What is the right balance between national and international goals and obligations? For example, is it immoral to spend on foreign aid while we still have poverty here? What if global poverty were contagious and could be spread by human contact? Would that change things? What is meant by enlightened self-interest? Etc etc.
I've ignored the stupid personalizing stuff at the end. Like I said before, it's on the level of "Donate to HMRC then" as a response to somebody arguing for higher taxes. I just have no time for it.
I also look forward to you embracing the principle of 'I'm All Right, Jack' in other areas of national life, which you have so enthusiastically done in this case.
I get it - antinationalism has so distorted your moral sense that the very idea of first helping British people in need (other than yourself, of course) is anathema, and fucking them over for the sake of just about anyone else on the planet is a virtue. Congratulations.
And no wonder you have no time for the 'stupid personalizing stuff', because it exposes your position as the bankrupt hypocrisy it is. At least have the courage of your convictions and insist that you'll refuse the jab until all the people you want to give other people's doses to have had theirs. But you won't - not in a million years.
Truly pathetic. My view has zero to do with whether I personally get a jab or not. I haven't as yet and won't for quite a while. And if before then the government announces my wait will be longer because of a priority shift to some places where the need is greater, I will be ok with that. That's the truth. I'm sorry if this makes you feel like a mean spirited, entitled "me first" little shit. Perhaps you are.
Glad you said that (the first bit). Cleared up a confusion. April/May for both of us I think. I couldn`t understand why some posters were saying that you had already been vaccinated.
People were thinking I was 85. But, yes, I'm more your sort of vintage. Touch nearer to "going over" but ballpark.
Why did posters think you were 85? Were you yanking their chain?
It was an odd one. I had an exchange with pagan ages ago - maybe a full year - and he said how old was I because iho I was coming over as a airhead student union type. I did a flip and silly answer back. 85. Ho ho. Take that pagan. It obviously got filed away and remembered. Then on a thread the other day there were scenes and when I logged on after a break I found that a general revulsion had swept the Board that this sanctimonious old leftist geezer - moi - had had his British jab and was now seeking to deny it to other younger Brits in favour of saving elderly Italians.
I think some posters fainted dead away with ecstasy at that (false) confirmation of all their worst fears.
Target (UK, all doses, all nations) >>> 15,000,000 Thru >>> 10,140,570 To target >>> 4,859,424 Days to target (14.02.21 2359hrs) 13 Required rate/day 373,801
"Back of a fag packet" calculations really shouldn't be quoted to six significat figures.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
The logical conclusion of @contrarian's line of thought has to be the dissolution of democracy, because in the real world, lockdowns are not vote winners.
They are at the moment. That`s the terrifying point.
Lockdowns are vote winners right now because people have been dying and hospitals are (or were) at capacity.
Guess what?
When hospitalisations and case numbers are low, then they won't be popular.
I suspect there will be a nontrivial amount of people who confound your view. I mean, lots of people never go to pubs and restaurants in normal times, so might well be agitating their continued closure.
My childless brother has been endlessly lobbying for schools to be closed, since well, this thing started. Which I found annoying, but I bit my tongue.
Target (UK, all doses, all nations) >>> 15,000,000 Thru >>> 10,140,570 To target >>> 4,859,424 Days to target (14.02.21 2359hrs) 13 Required rate/day 373,801
"Back of a fag packet" calculations really shouldn't be quoted to six significat figures.
So what? It doesn't matter really does it – those numbers are about right (despite being done before the NI numbers came in).
That's really not true. Pfizer's vaccine is now being manufactured under license by Novartis and Sanofi, and that's in addition to their own production facilties. Bayer has started manufacturing CureVac under license. AstraZeneca has plants in the EU making their vaccine.
The EU will be a net exporter of vaccines - I would reckon - by early in Q2.
Strictly true right now they need all of their own for their own people. Q2 is some way off unless you think it makes sense to forecast a vaccine war in April. I suppose we could thank him for the early warning. Not sure waht Clausewitz would make of it as a strategy.
Plenty of people are determined that we never, ever, get out of this.
Utter rot.
So what should we do about the new strains the medics are identifying and highlighting that the vaccine may not protect us against?
Don;t tell me, let me guess.
The answer is more lockdown, right? has to be?
No. 🤦🏻♂️
The answer is new vaccines that address the new variants, like we get new flu vaccines developed every year.
But currently people have 0% protection against Covid. Even if the vaccine is only 60% protective against the new variants that 60% is absolutely massive and could be enough to keep R in a new outbreak very low all by itself, without a lockdown.
A few months ago people would have taken a 60% effective vaccine as a great result within a year of the outbreak starting.
I blame Pfizer being first out with 90%. If a 60% one had gone first everyone would be thrilled rather than now nervous when lower ones are announced.
Sorry, but ministers of the crown are stoking the fear. 'Be extremely strict about your lockdown!
and SAGE scientists say 'these super duper vaccine resistant strains may be the tip of the iceberg!
I'm sorry, but these are not the actions of people who want to get out of lockdown. They manifestly are not.
Whenever it looks like we might be approaching some sort of milestone there is another massive dose of fear porn. Not from 'clickbait' news sites but from f8cking government ministers and F8cking SAGE scientists.
They are the actions of people who want to maintain lockdown. They cannot be anything else.
So you are saying that every single member of SAGE is relishing the prospect of never going out again. That is what they want from life?
No I am saying that many members of SAGE are relishing the massive, unaccountable power that the British government has given them without any mandate whatsoever , and like every other 'human being' (as you put it) they have grown accustomed to it, like it, and do not want to let it go.
That's what I am saying. And as you claimed, scientists are human beings. Human beings love telling other human beings what to do.
Well, the elected government gave them that power; if you don't agree, you can always vote for a party that wouldn't have given them the power - REFUK or what have you. On the other hand, if we're all walking around enjoying our lives again once everyone has been vaccinated, you might want to reassess whether or not the government and the scientists were right after all.
Look at Hancock's language on new variants today. Look at his actions on 'surge testing'.
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
If there are vaccine resistant strains, it is SAGE's job to point the fact out and Hancock's to deal with it. "The rhetoric of panic and fear" is just rhetoric, and you are repeatedly asking "are we nearly there yet?" and accusing the adults of taking unnecessary detours. Actually they are even more desperate to get there than you are.
The logical conclusion of @contrarian's line of thought has to be the dissolution of democracy, because in the real world, lockdowns are not vote winners.
They are at the moment. That`s the terrifying point.
Lockdowns are vote winners right now because people have been dying and hospitals are (or were) at capacity.
Guess what?
When hospitalisations and case numbers are low, then they won't be popular.
Hope you are right. I may cut out and keep your post and give it an airing in the summer.
Do that.
By the way the Australians got rid of their lockdown after they got rid of CV19 (as did the Chinese and the New Zealanders and Hong Kong). What is it you think is different about the UK that makes the politicians uniquely desperate to do something incredibly unpopular?
I think that my concern is based on the prevailing notion that lockdown = good, freedoms = bad.
I`m worried that a few dynamics will remain in play to bolster the prevailing view for longer than people think.
For example: opposition parties making political capital out of every relaxation that the government suggests; devolved parliaments doing similarly; the government itself being populists and not leaders; Sunak extending financial support again (perhaps even broadening it); the media`s constant presentation of statistics either wrongly or in the worst light; stories like "he had the vaccine and still caught Covid" do the rounds; and "she can`t have a vaccine for x reason and we still have to protect her"; "the sun is shining now so lockdown is not so bad again and I`m off work being paid" etc etc.
As I say, I hope you are right but I think my concern is justified.
We are not there yet but if (i) vaccines are in limited supply and (ii) the UK has vaccinated sufficiently to control the virus and substantially reopen, it not IMMORAL (in fact it is quite the contrary) to argue that the priority should then be in countries where the virus is raging.
Furthermore this is the most rational approach for a global pandemic. It must be defeated globally otherwise it will be back to bite us with vicious imported mutations and we will be stuck in this twilight world for years.
The header is great but is playing to the gallery.
As Cyclefree and others have said, it would be 100% immoral.
The UK vaccines are owned collectively by the UK population, who as both citizens and taxpayers have paid for and are entitled to receive their share. To take away that share from the younger half without their consent - as both you and the WHO have proposed - is to perpetrate a theft upon them, plain and simple. And not just the usual socialist theft of income or assets - which is bad enough, but which after all is only money - but a theft of their freedom, their physical and mental health, their ability to breathe easily and live normal lives.
That the proponents of such a theft include those who would receive their doses themselves before merrily giving away those of others is more than immoral - it's sick. I don't see any of them volunteering to have their doses sent overseas right now to protect the elderly in poor countries with no healthcare system at all, which is what they would be arguing for if they wished to accept the logical consequences of their lofty 'moral' stance rather than have the young pay the price for their ideals.
Congratulations on embracing the idea of collectivist ownership in a domestic context. I'll look for you to apply this in other parts of our national life.
Otherwise, absolute hogwash.
(i) When we have the virus under control, the priority should be switched to the global effort.
(ii) We should not think about the global effort until we have vaccinated every single person in the UK.
Neither of these positions are immoral. Your perspective depends on your answers to various questions. What is the duty of a government? What is the right balance between national and international goals and obligations? For example, is it immoral to spend on foreign aid while we still have poverty here? What if global poverty were contagious and could be spread by human contact? Would that change things? What is meant by enlightened self-interest? Etc etc.
I've ignored the stupid personalizing stuff at the end. Like I said before, it's on the level of "Donate to HMRC then" as a response to somebody arguing for higher taxes. I just have no time for it.
I also look forward to you embracing the principle of 'I'm All Right, Jack' in other areas of national life, which you have so enthusiastically done in this case.
I get it - antinationalism has so distorted your moral sense that the very idea of first helping British people in need (other than yourself, of course) is anathema, and fucking them over for the sake of just about anyone else on the planet is a virtue. Congratulations.
And no wonder you have no time for the 'stupid personalizing stuff', because it exposes your position as the bankrupt hypocrisy it is. At least have the courage of your convictions and insist that you'll refuse the jab until all the people you want to give other people's doses to have had theirs. But you won't - not in a million years.
Truly pathetic. My view has zero to do with whether I personally get a jab or not. I haven't as yet and won't for quite a while. And if before then the government announces my wait will be longer because of a priority shift to places where the need is greater, I will be ok with that. That's the truth. I'm sorry if this makes you feel like a mean-spirited, entitled "me first" little shit. Perhaps you are.
You are explicitly endorsing a plan that will mean you are personally protected, while those younger than you can go fuck themselves.
I don't know about you, but that sounds like the position of a selfish little shit to me.
I'm not endorsing any plan!
I'm merely departing from the majority view that - come what may and regardless of circumstances - the UK should not share its vaccines with anyone else until every single person in the UK who wants a jab has had a jab.
That is not a stupid view. Or immoral. Or selfish. Or hypocritical. Or any of the other epithets you've been gaily throwing around.
What it is is MY view. And I've explained why I hold it.
Your first two sentences contradict one another, but never mind. You're entitled to your view, but what you're not entitled to is other people's doses of vaccine. I've frankly had enough of wrangling over it for now.
I'm happy to row in 100% behind that last sentence there. In fact, since for now it's clear we go full steam ahead on vaccination, and given how emotive the topic is, I had resolved to park this seemingly niche view of mine until it becomes a salient issue (which it might never). But then Ms C did a Header on it, and lo there's "immoral" charges being made, and I got sucked back in.
I see that our Dean of Faculty has questioned of wisdom of the SNP replacing a competent, experienced and tenacious QC with someone who has a degree in drama as their spokesperson on Home affairs. He told me that a reply suggests that Cherry's replacement may well be bringing forward their arguments in the form of interpretive dance.
Comments
I'm merely departing from the majority view that - come what may and regardless of circumstances - the UK should not share its vaccines with anyone else until every single person in the UK who wants a jab has had a jab.
That is not a stupid view. Or immoral. Or selfish. Or hypocritical. Or any of the other epithets you've been gaily throwing around.
What it is is MY view. And I've explained why I hold it.
(i) not investing in vaccine research and development
(ii) failing to order and distribute vaccines that did nonetheless become available
(iii) encouraging people to ignore lockdowns, to maintain spread
(iv) failing to monitor and react to new more infectious strains, for example by specifically not testing in areas where new strains had been discovered
So I guess we must applaud the government for hiding their intentions so well by doing the opposite of all the above while, apparently, desiring endless lockdown.
(You could get the EU on the hook for (i) and (ii) at least, but personally I normally favour incompetence over malice. Hat tip to Cummings to (iii) too, of course...)
If you count as extremist:
Everyone who votes Labour under extreme left leadership of Corbyn
and
Everyone who votes Brexit
and
Everyone who has some degree of support for Trump
you get to an implausibly high number, making no sense of the actual nature of our communities and our actual day to day experience.
So you have to assume that this sort of counting is in some way mistaken and try to work out what. The thesis that the UK is in fact riddled with multitudinous millions of secret lefty revolutionaries and fascis wielding rightists makes no sense of what it feels like in the street and the home and the vax queue.
Much like going full reopening last August seemed uncharacteristically rash for #TheSturge this seems once gain breathtakingly brisk.
https://www.wonderlandmodels.com/products/revell-124-london-bus-aec-routemaster/
Look at what SAGE are saying about 'tip of the ICEBERG.....! ' vaccine resistant strains.
Thesae are not journalists but scientists and government ministers. Matt Hancock, the man in charge of the whole thing.
And then tell me, given what they are saying today, the rhetoric of panic and fear they are using, whether these are the actions of people who are even remotely thinking about giving you your liberties back. They are not.
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2021/01/covid-19-will-likely-be-with-us-forever-heres-how-well-live-with-it?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
The words of people who want this over quickly would be to the effect of 'we've got this covered'
Its the opposite of that.
Once Covid is vanquished forever, perhaps we could have a Putinesque military parade to celebrate.
We still operate on a basis of stretched hospitals and mass case numbers. We need to get them down - fast. Once they're down and once the vaccine is rolled out then something would have to go catastrophically wrong to have a third wave. But until then, we're vulnerable.
Considerable damage has been done. The Government in Dublin had been, since the beginning of January, trying to massage the mounting anger in Northern Ireland about the effects of the protocol.
"The actions on Friday undermined all the people who were working to defend the protocol," says an Irish official. "The idea that every time we hit a snag on the protocol we start waving Article 16 around is foolish."
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2021/0202/1194551-article-16-vaccines-brexit/
https://twitter.com/macaesbruno/status/1356625948016263172?s=21
What kind of panic do we want to have when the numbers come out? Please form an orderly queue to your chosen panic spot.
Flags, tea and biscuits will be provided.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1356608324045852672?s=20
If so, then how exactly is she reopening anything before England if that's the extent of it?
For the avoidance of doubt, having now seen much more of his work, I agree that he's an idiot.
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1356627172119760896?s=20
Guess what?
When hospitalisations and case numbers are low, then they won't be popular.
Everyone is making risk assessments throughout this, and I agree that there's some dumb xenophobia out there, and nobody is guaranteed to be right. IIRC Foxy pointed out the similarity of the Russian and Oxford vaccine design early on.
https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1356595816140570624?s=20
She needs to either do her job, or let someone else do it.
That is.... interesting.
By the way the Australians got rid of their lockdown after they got rid of CV19 (as did the Chinese and the New Zealanders and Hong Kong). What is it you think is different about the UK that makes the politicians uniquely desperate to do something incredibly unpopular?
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/55905233
The EU will be a net exporter of vaccines - I would reckon - by early in Q2.
But its pretty undeniable that the US have handled vaccines better than the EU have. I'd put that more down to Dr Fauci than Donald Trump though.
They know who they are.
My childless brother has been endlessly lobbying for schools to be closed, since well, this thing started. Which I found annoying, but I bit my tongue.
I`m worried that a few dynamics will remain in play to bolster the prevailing view for longer than people think.
For example: opposition parties making political capital out of every relaxation that the government suggests; devolved parliaments doing similarly; the government itself being populists and not leaders; Sunak extending financial support again (perhaps even broadening it); the media`s constant presentation of statistics either wrongly or in the worst light; stories like "he had the vaccine and still caught Covid" do the rounds; and "she can`t have a vaccine for x reason and we still have to protect her"; "the sun is shining now so lockdown is not so bad again and I`m off work being paid" etc etc.
As I say, I hope you are right but I think my concern is justified.
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