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Never! The DUP’s tragic journey from Ian Paisley to King Lear – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,168
edited January 2021 in General
Never! The DUP’s tragic journey from Ian Paisley to King Lear – politicalbetting.com

The Union is buggered according to a variety of polls conducted for the Sunday Times. pic.twitter.com/vrEVAkuRXS

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited January 2021
    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Does it not need the likes of the English who call themselves British to let go though? If so, it’s not happening.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    gealbhan said:

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Does it not need the likes of the English who call themselves British to let go though? If so, it’s not happening.
    Not necessarily. It's complicated but there are some legal reasons why they 'might' be able to do it without Westminster's say so.
  • 'if at any time it appears likely to him' is ingloriously vague; I'd imagine there'd be a lot of no seeing of ships as long as it suited BJ and his crew.

    I note the Brexityoons are now pointing to NI's hermaphrodite status as a little bit EU and a little bit UK as the perfect foundation for its continuing allegiance to the Union. So that's England, Wales and NI's Brexit vote respected, leaving...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
  • 1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Just so, and the referendum that produced that result was held on the say so of a party that won a GE with 37% of the vote. Democracy, eh!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    The DUP (and the fishing industry) are certainly front of the queue for repenting at leisure.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Just so, and the referendum that produced that result was held on the say so of a party that won a GE with 37% of the vote. Democracy, eh!
    The vote at second reading to hold the EU referendum was passed by 544 to 53. The 53 were the SNP. Who are now trying to tell us it doesn't have a democratic mandate. Democracy, eh!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Chaos of Trump's last days in office reverberates with fresh 'plot' report -
    Ex-president, whose Senate trial will start in two weeks, reportedly planned to oust acting attorney general in bid to overturn election
  • 1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Just so, and the referendum that produced that result was held on the say so of a party that won a GE with 37% of the vote. Democracy, eh!
    The vote at second reading to hold the EU referendum was passed by 544 to 53. The 53 were the SNP. Who are now trying to tell us it doesn't have a democratic mandate. Democracy, eh!
    Shocking that the undemocratic EU allowed it to go ahead.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Just so, and the referendum that produced that result was held on the say so of a party that won a GE with 37% of the vote. Democracy, eh!
    The vote at second reading to hold the EU referendum was passed by 544 to 53. The 53 were the SNP. Who are now trying to tell us it doesn't have a democratic mandate. Democracy, eh!
    Shocking that the undemocratic EU allowed it to go ahead.
    There was a proper, legal mechanism....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    According to CNN: Citing four former Trump administration officials, the paper reported that an agreement among department leadership that they would all resign if Rosen were fired helped sway Trump from removing his acting attorney general. The notion of department pandemonium, congressional investigations and blowback from fellow Republicans seemed to resonate with Trump, who after nearly three hours decided to allow Rosen to stay and determined that Clark's plan would not work, according to the Times.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Just so, and the referendum that produced that result was held on the say so of a party that won a GE with 37% of the vote. Democracy, eh!
    The vote at second reading to hold the EU referendum was passed by 544 to 53. The 53 were the SNP. Who are now trying to tell us it doesn't have a democratic mandate. Democracy, eh!
    Holding the referendum wasn't the problem. It was the way it was conducted, with dishonesty by Leave and incompetence by Remain.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Good morning, everyone.

    King Cole, it does remain (ahem) faintly bizarre that the referendum was held by a government that didn't want the change to occur and didn't require the other side to actually have a prospectus.
  • 1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Just so, and the referendum that produced that result was held on the say so of a party that won a GE with 37% of the vote. Democracy, eh!
    The vote at second reading to hold the EU referendum was passed by 544 to 53. The 53 were the SNP. Who are now trying to tell us it doesn't have a democratic mandate. Democracy, eh!
    Shocking that the undemocratic EU allowed it to go ahead.
    There was a proper, legal mechanism....
    Agreed to by the 'undemocratic' EU.
    Anyway, carry on telling Scots that they don't really want a referendum but they're not getting one anyway 'cos reasons. Seems to be working a treat for the cause (clarification: not your cause).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376
    The DUP would have done better to go for the May deal.

    The substantive questions, however, show small shifts towards a pro-Union position, compared to the previous polls conducted by the same pollsters.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    The DUP (and the fishing industry) are certainly front of the queue for repenting at leisure.

    The silly thing about fishing in the Brexit deal is that all it needed to be a "success" was for the industry was to abide by European sanitary and phytosanitary standards. Obviously those would have been set by the EU, but it would have meant the industry being largely undisturbed. So the export industry was destroyed by the fetishisation of "sovereignty".

    Much the same applied to Northern Ireland. If we agreed to EU regulation of food and agricultural standards, which it is hard to find a coherent objection to, then the Irish Sea border would be much less of a problem.
    You are right that the path back to the EU will start with giving up on regulatory divergence. Which will prove fools gold.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Good morning, everyone.

    King Cole, it does remain (ahem) faintly bizarre that the referendum was held by a government that didn't want the change to occur and didn't require the other side to actually have a prospectus.

    That latter was idiotic.

    Here’s one for you from CNN:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/23/motorsport/maya-weug-ferrari-driver-academy-spt-intl/index.html
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Ofcourse it would be enough - as for Brexit, although personally for such things I'd have preferred a higher bar. That ship has sailed. At any rate that was not his point as you must surely understand.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Navalny does seem to have some support. How long to the storming of the Winter Palace?

    https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1353007339339739138?s=19

    Best known to players of Risk, Yakutsk looks rather chilly for a demonstration.

    https://twitter.com/p_zalewski/status/1352890104566730752?s=19
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Just so, and the referendum that produced that result was held on the say so of a party that won a GE with 37% of the vote. Democracy, eh!
    The vote at second reading to hold the EU referendum was passed by 544 to 53. The 53 were the SNP. Who are now trying to tell us it doesn't have a democratic mandate. Democracy, eh!
    Holding the referendum wasn't the problem. It was the way it was conducted, with dishonesty by Leave and incompetence by Remain.
    OMG Dishonesty and incompetence in politics - what a shocker! Never happened before. Ever. Anywhere...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Dr. Foxy, Navalny's a man. If there's a movement, such a thing might happen. If not, I wouldn't give him a great chance of surviving the year.

    Mr. B2, it certainly was odd.

    Interesting story on Weug.

    My only concern with the drive to get women into F1 is that the trailblazer's going to be critical. If she can't cut it then that'll make the appointment look like tokenism and set things back. The first woman of recent times to compete in F1 doesn't need to be a Hamilton or Verstappen (although, obviously, that'd be great), but she does need to be solid enough that people aren't questioning whether it's tokenism.

    Still, as more women compete in lower categories of motorsport the number of candidates will go up so hopefully it's just a matter of time.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    IanB2 said:

    The DUP (and the fishing industry) are certainly front of the queue for repenting at leisure.

    .....and Welsh farmers. At this rate the rotund of Hartlipool might be joining the repent queue by summer
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    I'm not sure which one would have been the more vague, disconnected and poorly read up in his brief...probably the one who has been in the job for 18 months
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Foxy said:

    Navalny does seem to have some support. How long to the storming of the Winter Palace?

    https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1353007339339739138?s=19

    Best known to players of Risk, Yakutsk looks rather chilly for a demonstration.

    https://twitter.com/p_zalewski/status/1352890104566730752?s=19

    Yeuch, that looks a real test for enthusiasm. Really surprised that Navalny has not fallen off a balcony yet. Is Putin losing his touch?
  • Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    Mostly, a few aching wrists though.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    Mostly, a few aching wrists though.
    The sheer neediness of it was hardcore cringe.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    On topic Alastair's desire to prove everything bad that might happen in the next millenium is an inevitable consequence of Brexit and proves that everyone who voted for it is an idiot really understates pretty long running trends in NI. The Protestants have been losing their majority for 30 years at least and we are at the switching point where the non religious are already the swing voters and the catholics have a plurality.

    The deal with NI reflects not evil incompetence but the reality that NI is much more integrated with a much more dynamic Southern Ireland than it was when Ireland had a pretty ordinary agricultural economy. That needed to be protected. NI is not economically strong as it is and could not afford to lose access to that dynamism. Will there come a point when Ireland offers more than the UK? Maybe. But probably not for a while yet.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Foxy said:

    Navalny does seem to have some support. How long to the storming of the Winter Palace?

    https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1353007339339739138?s=19

    Best known to players of Risk, Yakutsk looks rather chilly for a demonstration.

    https://twitter.com/p_zalewski/status/1352890104566730752?s=19

    I'd always read it as 'Yatusk'. What a game! An everyday game for dictators.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Seriously unlucky for Buttler. I really don't see how the TV umpire could be satisfied that that came wholly off the boot. The soft signal seems to count for nothing in these scenarios.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    A big difference from Scotland and Wales is that most people in England have no particular view on whether Northern Ireland should be part of the UK or not (Scots are a bit more interested). They're certainly not against it, apart from a few nationalist sympathisers. But if NI wanted to split off and join Eire, fine. Most people have zero links with it, and those who do often don't see it as part of English culture - full of politicians with strong opinions on religion and culture, in political parties unfamiliar to English eyes. We're not against it, exactly, and it's nice that most would still like to be British, but it doesn't feel a natural fit.

    That was masked during the May government because of the crucial importance of the DUP ro the majority. Now that's no longer an issue, the nominally unioinist Conservatives mostly don't care either. So if opinion does shift to suggest a majority for Irish union, resistance in Number 10 will be much milder than for a new Scottish Indyref.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Navalny does seem to have some support. How long to the storming of the Winter Palace?

    https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1353007339339739138?s=19

    Best known to players of Risk, Yakutsk looks rather chilly for a demonstration.

    https://twitter.com/p_zalewski/status/1352890104566730752?s=19

    Yeuch, that looks a real test for enthusiasm. Really surprised that Navalny has not fallen off a balcony yet. Is Putin losing his touch?
    Navalny TikTok is more popular than Putin would like.

    https://vm.tiktok.com/ZSwtok5a/
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,438
    DavidL said:

    Seriously unlucky for Buttler. I really don't see how the TV umpire could be satisfied that that came wholly off the boot. The soft signal seems to count for nothing in these scenarios.

    Front on shot I was convinced it was just boot, the later one that they rolled back and forth, I was sure hit the ground too. Not convinced, therefore wrong decision. Payback for the one in the last test of Bairstow...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462
    felix said:

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Just so, and the referendum that produced that result was held on the say so of a party that won a GE with 37% of the vote. Democracy, eh!
    The vote at second reading to hold the EU referendum was passed by 544 to 53. The 53 were the SNP. Who are now trying to tell us it doesn't have a democratic mandate. Democracy, eh!
    Holding the referendum wasn't the problem. It was the way it was conducted, with dishonesty by Leave and incompetence by Remain.
    OMG Dishonesty and incompetence in politics - what a shocker! Never happened before. Ever. Anywhere...
    Very true, but we’ve rarely seen such examples. Or extremes!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Dura_Ace said:

    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    Mostly, a few aching wrists though.
    The sheer neediness of it was hardcore cringe.
    Any thoughts on the Navalny protests? Looks a bit like Belarus again, with the police still in control.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I see the New York Times has fired an editor for saying she got chills when watching Biden land on the 20th.

    Please tell me again how right wingers are having their speech uniquely oppressed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    The only people who gave a shiny shit were those disappointed it had happened.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    The only memorable thing about it. Both participants probably forgot about it within the half hour 😅
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    Mostly, a few aching wrists though.
    The sheer neediness of it was hardcore cringe.
    Any thoughts on the Navalny protests? Looks a bit like Belarus again, with the police still in control.
    The first sign that it really means something will be if Putin starts firing regional governors or mayors in a corruption crackdown as an act of appeasement.

    Russian language media is focusing on attacks on the police which is straight out of the Johnson/Trump playbook by extending the identity of the state, and by inference the country, to its apparatchika.

    In extremis Vovka will fire the over promoted IT Manager who is the current PM and raise pensions for his irreducible core supporters; old people who are more or less permanently drunk.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    A big difference from Scotland and Wales is that most people in England have no particular view on whether Northern Ireland should be part of the UK or not (Scots are a bit more interested). They're certainly not against it, apart from a few nationalist sympathisers. But if NI wanted to split off and join Eire, fine. Most people have zero links with it, and those who do often don't see it as part of English culture - full of politicians with strong opinions on religion and culture, in political parties unfamiliar to English eyes. We're not against it, exactly, and it's nice that most would still like to be British, but it doesn't feel a natural fit.

    That was masked during the May government because of the crucial importance of the DUP ro the majority. Now that's no longer an issue, the nominally unioinist Conservatives mostly don't care either. So if opinion does shift to suggest a majority for Irish union, resistance in Number 10 will be much milder than for a new Scottish Indyref.

    What about the old Domino theory? Johnson and his Red Bus Party are likely to find things moving in ways none of us can imagine. Scotland seems very likely but who knows whether London might decide it wants more powers and doesn't want to be dragged down by the parochial blue passporters ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    DavidL said:

    On topic Alastair's desire to prove everything bad that might happen in the next millenium is an inevitable consequence of Brexit and proves that everyone who voted for it is an idiot really understates pretty long running trends in NI. The Protestants have been losing their majority for 30 years at least and we are at the switching point where the non religious are already the swing voters and the catholics have a plurality.

    The deal with NI reflects not evil incompetence but the reality that NI is much more integrated with a much more dynamic Southern Ireland than it was when Ireland had a pretty ordinary agricultural economy. That needed to be protected. NI is not economically strong as it is and could not afford to lose access to that dynamism. Will there come a point when Ireland offers more than the UK? Maybe. But probably not for a while yet.

    The “nothing to do with Brexit” tendency this morning is particularly strong. But isn’t it amazing that all the constitutional disruptions that were warned about before the referendum - Scottish independence, Northern Ireland’s place in the union - have come back onto the agenda in very short order? The MPs now preparing for an Irish reunification referendum are DUP MPs.

    I wrote this piece well before the polls published last night came out. They fit well with its premise. The government suddenly seems to recognise that the union is under siege, though it seems clueless what to do about it, because like you it emotionally cannot accept that Brexit is a catalyst. Its plan seems to be to convert the non-English bits into colonies by setting its face against referendums on changes in constitutional status no matter how clear the mandate. That is a short term strategy only. In the long term, what does a UK government dominated by an assertive English nationalism offer Scotland and Northern Ireland? Because in the long term and perhaps not even the short term, money is not going to be enough.
    No, its not. These issues existed before Brexit, they exist after it. We didn't have a referendum in 2014 because of Brexit, Independence has been an issue ever since. Of course people want to use this "change" as an excuse but the SNP were not exactly resigned to not pursuing independence to 2017.

    Similarly in NI. We had the troubles for the best part of 20 years on the back of the desire of a significant minority to have a united Ireland. That minority is moving to a majority. What the hell has Brexit got to do with it?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    https://twitter.com/fifisyms/status/1353120978012950528
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Scott_xP said:

    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    https://twitter.com/fifisyms/status/1353120978012950528
    80 seat majority. Here 'til 2024.....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,765
    Thanks Alastair, interesting header.

    I have been wondering why all these mainland UK companies who have, often reluctantly, started setting up satellite offices in EU or employing EU proxies to handle some of their sales, aren't thinking about setting up in NI?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    The only people who gave a shiny shit were those disappointed it had happened.
    It's the way you tell 'em! It was half the front page of the Telegraph. I didn't follow it through to pages 4,5,6,7,8 and 12.
  • Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    The DUP (and the fishing industry) are certainly front of the queue for repenting at leisure.

    The silly thing about fishing in the Brexit deal is that all it needed to be a "success" was for the industry was to abide by European sanitary and phytosanitary standards. Obviously those would have been set by the EU, but it would have meant the industry being largely undisturbed. So the export industry was destroyed by the fetishisation of "sovereignty".

    Much the same applied to Northern Ireland. If we agreed to EU regulation of food and agricultural standards, which it is hard to find a coherent objection to, then the Irish Sea border would be much less of a problem.
    For fishing, widen it out and say "for everything and everybody" we have destroyed ourselves through the "fetishisation" of sovvrinty. We are not going to remain aligned by EU standards. As ever higher standards both cost money and have been campaigned against by Tories for decades, that means we intend to lower standards. As witnessed by discussion about changes to working time laws.

    People voted for Brexit to be better off. What was making them worse off was a variety of things - forrins, CFP, bendy bananas - but everyone voting to leave expected a benefit in doing so. Now that the benefit is that they get to work harder and longer for less cash with less to buy in the shops at higher prices, the outrage in fishing will become more general outrage as the penny drops.

    Some morons will insist sovvrinty is worth making themselves poorer for decades (we had that on here last night), but most will say - as the fishermen already are - that this isn't the Brexit we voted for. Rejoining the EEA "on our terms" and a customs deal will quickly become the singular policy debate of the decade to come. And some insist that Brexit is done...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    That Twitter photo and caption are utterly pathetic.

    There is an ocean of legitimate criticism to hurl at the PM. The global pandemic is not one of them. And if the charge of incompetence in particular areas (not tightening air borders, for example) is to be levelled, which is perfectly fair, it is not reasonable to pretend the vaccine rollout hasn't been amongst the best in the world.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    ...

    No, its not. These issues existed before Brexit, they exist after it. We didn't have a referendum in 2014 because of Brexit, Independence has been an issue ever since. Of course people want to use this "change" as an excuse but the SNP were not exactly resigned to not pursuing independence to 2017.

    Similarly in NI. We had the troubles for the best part of 20 years on the back of the desire of a significant minority to have a united Ireland. That minority is moving to a majority. What the hell has Brexit got to do with it?
    Taking this slowly, since you are determined not to understand.

    Brexit did not cause the Scottish independence movement, it did not cause the problems in Northern Ireland. What it did was shake both all up. Just like shaking a can of pop, what you then saw was them fizz over. Which was entirely predictable and predicted.

    In the case of Northern Ireland specifically, the connection is particularly clear. The government has consciously chosen to make Northern Ireland’s suppliers reorganise their supply lines chaotically from mainland GB to the Republic of Ireland, so far as they can. This is going to supercharge the integration of the economy of island of Ireland.

    Judging this government by its actions rather than its words, it seems to will the end of the union. A shame for unionists in both Scotland and Northern Ireland, but both sets will have plenty of time to reflect on their past gullibility.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited January 2021

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    The point that @Mysticrose was making is, of course, that it doesn't exactly look like a done deal. Using round numbers, if we assume an 85% turnout in the next independence referendum then 2% of participating voters equals about 75,000 people. If 52:48 is in any way an accurate reflection of sentiment and a net 75,000 pro-independence electors can be convinced to switch horses during the campaign then that narrow majority is erased.

    It's why there was some suggestion in the past of attaining a consistent 60:40 gap before pressing for an actual vote, so as to avoid the prospect of a narrow defeat at the ballot box. The 1995 Quebec referendum was lost by a wafer thin majority and twenty-five years later there's no prospect of a third tilt on the horizon. Though that said, I think that Scotland's a different case and if there is a second defeat the campaign for a third vote begins the following morning. Stability cannot be achieved within the existing settlement, which is one more good reason for wanting to see the back of the Union.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    I have been wondering why all these mainland UK companies who have, often reluctantly, started setting up satellite offices in EU or employing EU proxies to handle some of their sales, aren't thinking about setting up in NI?

    We are setting up a new office in the EU. Do you guys want to move to Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin, or Belfast...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    Scott_xP said:

    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    https://twitter.com/fifisyms/status/1353120978012950528
    80 seat majority. Here 'til 2024.....
    Weird that they are still using landline telephones instead of video links.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Scott_xP said:
    It has an 80 seat majority, secured on the promise inter alia there would be no second Referendum in Scotland.

    Plenty of moral and political headroom.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Plenty of moral and political headroom.

    Only in Little England.

    BoZo didn't win votes in Scotland promising to deny them democracy
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Pioneers, if the economic argument held sway we would easily have voted to Remain.

    As an aside, it's also a black swan that the most immediate advantage of leaving has been the better vaccine procurement. Accountability has its upsides.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    The problem we have is that no one has a vision for where the union is going or making the case for it. It’s either backward looking and sectarian and defensive (DUP) or very weak and confused (Con,Lab).
  • Roger said:

    A big difference from Scotland and Wales is that most people in England have no particular view on whether Northern Ireland should be part of the UK or not (Scots are a bit more interested). They're certainly not against it, apart from a few nationalist sympathisers. But if NI wanted to split off and join Eire, fine. Most people have zero links with it, and those who do often don't see it as part of English culture - full of politicians with strong opinions on religion and culture, in political parties unfamiliar to English eyes. We're not against it, exactly, and it's nice that most would still like to be British, but it doesn't feel a natural fit.

    That was masked during the May government because of the crucial importance of the DUP ro the majority. Now that's no longer an issue, the nominally unioinist Conservatives mostly don't care either. So if opinion does shift to suggest a majority for Irish union, resistance in Number 10 will be much milder than for a new Scottish Indyref.

    What about the old Domino theory? Johnson and his Red Bus Party are likely to find things moving in ways none of us can imagine. Scotland seems very likely but who knows whether London might decide it wants more powers and doesn't want to be dragged down by the parochial blue passporters ?
    The Brexit effect little talked of yet despite its threat is the lack of a services deal. The UK has been overly-reliant on tax revenue from the city for a good while now, and with Shagger's idiotic Brexit deal we're literally holding the door open and inviting them to leave and take their tax revenues with them.

    This country had reduced itself to being good at four things:
    Financial Services. No deal agreed, the exodus has started
    Specialist Manufacturing. Nissan betting that they can be last man standing churning out Qashqais for the UK only is not a sign that Brexit works for manufacturing. Rules of Origin are fiendishly complex, at best manufacturing needs a supply chain that is wholly cut off from its former self, at worst its too expensive / complex so just off-shore the lot.
    Retail. Not just shopping but the support industries for shopping like logistics and warehousing. We had this wonderful position as a NW European hub which we have just shuttered.
    Culture. The ludicrous lack of a deal for the performing arts is yet another example of Shagger having no clue where the valuable parts of the various trades were. "Sovereignty" doesn't pay the bills, being able to maintain our thriving film, TV, music and theatre industries does pay the bills.

    As I said to SeanL last night when he said that he's happy to be poorer for 30 years (didn't he go to Thailand...?) for sovvrinty, people didn't vote to be worse off. And they increasingly will be. Expect the fastest reverse ferret from the new Tory PM. As with the Poll Tax our lack of an EEA / CU arrangement will be the top priority for Jeremy Hunt when he takes over.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Mr. Pioneers, if the economic argument held sway we would easily have voted to Remain.

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1353252190060752897
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Scott_xP said:

    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    https://twitter.com/fifisyms/status/1353120978012950528
    "You're not preggers!"
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    DavidL said:

    ...

    No, its not. These issues existed before Brexit, they exist after it. We didn't have a referendum in 2014 because of Brexit, Independence has been an issue ever since. Of course people want to use this "change" as an excuse but the SNP were not exactly resigned to not pursuing independence to 2017.

    Similarly in NI. We had the troubles for the best part of 20 years on the back of the desire of a significant minority to have a united Ireland. That minority is moving to a majority. What the hell has Brexit got to do with it?
    Taking this slowly, since you are determined not to understand.

    Brexit did not cause the Scottish independence movement, it did not cause the problems in Northern Ireland. What it did was shake both all up. Just like shaking a can of pop, what you then saw was them fizz over. Which was entirely predictable and predicted.

    In the case of Northern Ireland specifically, the connection is particularly clear. The government has consciously chosen to make Northern Ireland’s suppliers reorganise their supply lines chaotically from mainland GB to the Republic of Ireland, so far as they can. This is going to supercharge the integration of the economy of island of Ireland.

    Judging this government by its actions rather than its words, it seems to will the end of the union. A shame for unionists in both Scotland and Northern Ireland, but both sets will have plenty of time to reflect on their past gullibility.
    The gullibility in my view is being shown by those who are determined to see causation just because Brexit is a potential tool in an ongoing struggle. But I suspect we are not going to agree on this Alastair so I will leave it there.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Jonathan, Blair's ill-considered desire for perpetual fiefdoms for Labour continue to cock things up. Institutions that permanently embed political dividing lines, especially in a lopsided fashion, increasing political polarisation isn't exactly surprising.

    On the union front, the most obvious steps would be an English Parliament, with the Lower House of Westminster being reduced to Treasury, Defence, Foreign Affairs, and some Home functions.

    The political class seems incapable of acknowledging England as a cohesive political identity (ironic giving the foolish Little England line people take for the only part of the UK without its own devolved political body), however. I have little faith Sir Keir will do anything but advocate the slicing up of England.

    If I had to make a forecast, this could be an opportunity either for the Conservatives or for Farage's latest political vehicle to be a pro-England party.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Curran is a whole hearted cricketer but he is not a good enough bowler or batsman for England at test level, certainly not at number 7. England are in serious trouble here. Could well be facing a 100-80 run deficit and batting fourth on a deteriorating pitch.
  • Thanks Alastair, interesting header.

    I have been wondering why all these mainland UK companies who have, often reluctantly, started setting up satellite offices in EU or employing EU proxies to handle some of their sales, aren't thinking about setting up in NI?

    Because you can't trade between GB and NI. Why move from one country with a disfunctional border to another?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    How could the lying sex-pest insist no paperwork then sign a deal with paperwork then insist there is no paperwork? Because he didn't understand how anything works and still doesn't care. Detail is for the little people. When the party turf him out and his legacy gets binned and reversed as quickly as the Poll Tax was, he will continue to be baffled. 'Didn't I deliver what people asked for?' NO!

    Positively Trumpian.

    No clue, interested only in symbols not facts, massively popular with a minority deluded base, when he is gone sanity will return, but the damage will linger.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    gealbhan said:

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Does it not need the likes of the English who call themselves British to let go though? If so, it’s not happening.
    they are desperate to hold on to their last colony , most having unceremoniously dumped them long ago. Global England does not have quite the same ring to it.
  • Mr. Pioneers, if the economic argument held sway we would easily have voted to Remain.

    As an aside, it's also a black swan that the most immediate advantage of leaving has been the better vaccine procurement. Accountability has its upsides.

    There is a world of difference between projections and reality. The "project fear" mantra was built around political arguments and projections. Now we just have reality. We don't need to argue about whether the GB - NI border works or not, we understand that it doesn't. We don't need to argue about whether the deal will be catastrophic for our ability to freely trade, we understand that it is.

    As for "we got the vaccine quicker cos we left the EU" that has the same merits as "we had to leave the EU to take back control of our borders - we couldn't shut them as EU members. When the Dr (I forget her name) who personally signed off the vaccines post trial shot that fox dead at the press conference, its almost funny to read that she was actually wrong.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,765
    Scott_xP said:

    Mr. Pioneers, if the economic argument held sway we would easily have voted to Remain.

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1353252190060752897
    The voters may say that now but Scottish indie has the massive issue of currency and the £.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Yes and given last 19 polls have had a range from 52-59 for Independence it is a big bit misleading into the bargain.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    No, Alastair has it spot on. The DUP (largest party in NI) support for Brexit and the dodgy use of their funds in England helped the narrow 52:48 win for Brexit.
    If the UK splits with Scotland going independent, NI joining Eire and maybe even Wales wanting more autonomy it will be the fault of the Brexiteers.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725
    DavidL said:

    Curran is a whole hearted cricketer but he is not a good enough bowler or batsman for England at test level, certainly not at number 7. England are in serious trouble here. Could well be facing a 100-80 run deficit and batting fourth on a deteriorating pitch.

    Let's not get too depressed.. but we are going to be in serious bother in India if Archer doesn't do some star stuff. You cannot expect Root to save you every time. India have a star batting and star bowling attack.. Best Indian side possibly ever..
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Pioneers, compare the UK vaccine rollout to the slow, centralised, failure of what the EU has done.

    On that count, the UK is streets ahead.

    And on that note, I must be off to lead the Cree to supreme victory.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    IanB2 said:

    The DUP (and the fishing industry) are certainly front of the queue for repenting at leisure.

    good chance farmers will be joining as well soon enough and eventually the great unwashed when the penny drops
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    Just so, and the referendum that produced that result was held on the say so of a party that won a GE with 37% of the vote. Democracy, eh!
    The vote at second reading to hold the EU referendum was passed by 544 to 53. The 53 were the SNP. Who are now trying to tell us it doesn't have a democratic mandate. Democracy, eh!
    Shocking that the undemocratic EU allowed it to go ahead.
    There was a proper, legal mechanism....
    Yes the nasty EU chose not to fiddle the laws so that they could ban it , because they are democratic, if only unionists had such principles.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,765
    Scott_xP said:

    How could the lying sex-pest insist no paperwork then sign a deal with paperwork then insist there is no paperwork? Because he didn't understand how anything works and still doesn't care. Detail is for the little people. When the party turf him out and his legacy gets binned and reversed as quickly as the Poll Tax was, he will continue to be baffled. 'Didn't I deliver what people asked for?' NO!

    Positively Trumpian.

    No clue, interested only in symbols not facts, massively popular with a minority deluded base, when he is gone sanity will return, but the damage will linger.
    Gone and replaced by Patel (voted in by your "deluded minority base" who are the membership).

    Then what?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    The argument is that brexit has turbo charged the Scottish Indy movement.

    The SNP would still be arguing for Indy even if remain had won. Makes 0 difference.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    DavidL said:

    Curran is a whole hearted cricketer but he is not a good enough bowler or batsman for England at test level, certainly not at number 7. England are in serious trouble here. Could well be facing a 100-80 run deficit and batting fourth on a deteriorating pitch.

    Let's not get too depressed.. but we are going to be in serious bother in India if Archer doesn't do some star stuff. You cannot expect Root to save you every time. India have a star batting and star bowling attack.. Best Indian side possibly ever..
    I agree that India are fabulous right now. I understand that bubbles are hard but it concerns me England are still not just focusing on having their very best team available for this. Bairstow home for first 2 tests, Buttler going home after the first one, it seems to me to be under estimating the challenge which is immense. I can see India winning 3 or 4 to nil.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    The political class seems incapable of acknowledging England as a cohesive political identity (ironic giving the foolish Little England line people take for the only part of the UK without its own devolved political body), however. I have little faith Sir Keir will do anything but advocate the slicing up of England.

    Precisely. The Union is not merely useless (and very costly) to the English, it's a positive threat. Quite aside from various madcap schemes to Balkanise the country, the only reason that Corbyn got within a hair's breadth of power in 2017 is because the SNP were sat in Parliament in significant numbers, ready to put him into bat.

    So, hopefully the Union will be destroyed before Labour gets its opportunity to carve us up into a tatty patchwork quilt of mostly artificial cantons - although I doubt it, sadly. Johnson will not budge on Scottish independence, so we may have to wait for a wobbly Labour minority Government to get back in again before Scotland gets another opportunity to walk.

    Still, it's not worth worrying about. What can any of us do about any of this crap? Nothing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,765
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    https://twitter.com/fifisyms/status/1353120978012950528
    "You're not preggers!"
    "Top hole. Jeeves has secured one hundred cases of the claret at the pre-brexit price!"
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    edited January 2021

    Mr. Jonathan, Blair's ill-considered desire for perpetual fiefdoms for Labour continue to cock things up. Institutions that permanently embed political dividing lines, especially in a lopsided fashion, increasing political polarisation isn't exactly surprising.

    On the union front, the most obvious steps would be an English Parliament, with the Lower House of Westminster being reduced to Treasury, Defence, Foreign Affairs, and some Home functions.

    The political class seems incapable of acknowledging England as a cohesive political identity (ironic giving the foolish Little England line people take for the only part of the UK without its own devolved political body), however. I have little faith Sir Keir will do anything but advocate the slicing up of England.

    If I had to make a forecast, this could be an opportunity either for the Conservatives or for Farage's latest political vehicle to be a pro-England party.

    An English parliament does not solve the key problem, which is the economic and political dominance of London. I would prefer a regional approach (preferably based on counties), where there was real autonomy. This would also apply in Wales and Scotland.

    I would also like to see a senate linked to these regions replace the HoL.

    A English parliament has little to offer over a British one, such is the variety and different needs in England.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    Foxy said:

    Navalny does seem to have some support. How long to the storming of the Winter Palace?

    https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1353007339339739138?s=19

    Best known to players of Risk, Yakutsk looks rather chilly for a demonstration.

    https://twitter.com/p_zalewski/status/1352890104566730752?s=19

    These things do tend to happen very quickly in Russia, Putin will have all his money in Swiss banks just in case.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421

    DavidL said:

    Curran is a whole hearted cricketer but he is not a good enough bowler or batsman for England at test level, certainly not at number 7. England are in serious trouble here. Could well be facing a 100-80 run deficit and batting fourth on a deteriorating pitch.

    Let's not get too depressed.. but we are going to be in serious bother in India if Archer doesn't do some star stuff. You cannot expect Root to save you every time. India have a star batting and star bowling attack.. Best Indian side possibly ever..
    We are voluntarily leaving players out of the team for both of these tours so that they can have a rest in advance of the T20 World Cup and the Ashes next winter.

    Stokes and Pope are both missing at the moment and, with Root, they're the best three in the batting order.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,765
    Scott_xP said:

    I have been wondering why all these mainland UK companies who have, often reluctantly, started setting up satellite offices in EU or employing EU proxies to handle some of their sales, aren't thinking about setting up in NI?

    We are setting up a new office in the EU. Do you guys want to move to Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin, or Belfast...
    I've been to the first two. But not the second two. Personally I would rather live in Amsterdam than Paris.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    The argument is that brexit has turbo charged the Scottish Indy movement.

    The SNP would still be arguing for Indy even if remain had won. Makes 0 difference.

    The SNP would still be arguing for it.

    Brexit makes them winning it more likely. Turbocharged, even.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    1st.

    What most struck me about the Sunday Times piece is that only 50% of Scots want a referendum in the next 5 years and that support for independence was only 52-48. These are not the sort of figures to inspire confidence that Scotland will go down the independence route.

    Ireland will be united sooner or later. It was the inevitable consequence of planting a border in the Irish sea, though in truth it has been headed that way for some time. Alastair's quite wrong to pin this on the DUP. The ethnic outlook of N Ireland has been changing and support for the union receding.

    Good morning everybody.
    I seem to recall that, in other circumstances, 52-48 was held to be enough for some pretty significant changes.
    I thought the point being made was that if its 52 48 now it is possible to stem the tide and persuade people to not vote for indy. So I dont know that the sarky comment is on point.

    Of course they very well might, and I expect will, vote 52 48, but when looking for hope if it is that close then come a vote and it might still fall the other way.
  • DavidL said:

    ...

    No, its not. These issues existed before Brexit, they exist after it. We didn't have a referendum in 2014 because of Brexit, Independence has been an issue ever since. Of course people want to use this "change" as an excuse but the SNP were not exactly resigned to not pursuing independence to 2017.

    Similarly in NI. We had the troubles for the best part of 20 years on the back of the desire of a significant minority to have a united Ireland. That minority is moving to a majority. What the hell has Brexit got to do with it?
    Taking this slowly, since you are determined not to understand.

    Brexit did not cause the Scottish independence movement, it did not cause the problems in Northern Ireland. What it did was shake both all up. Just like shaking a can of pop, what you then saw was them fizz over. Which was entirely predictable and predicted.

    In the case of Northern Ireland specifically, the connection is particularly clear. The government has consciously chosen to make Northern Ireland’s suppliers reorganise their supply lines chaotically from mainland GB to the Republic of Ireland, so far as they can. This is going to supercharge the integration of the economy of island of Ireland.

    Judging this government by its actions rather than its words, it seems to will the end of the union. A shame for unionists in both Scotland and Northern Ireland, but both sets will have plenty of time to reflect on their past gullibility.
    Alastair I loved your piece, but lets pick apart your statement that the "government has consciously chosen to make Northern Ireland’s suppliers reorganise their supply lines chaotically from mainland GB to the Republic of Ireland"

    They haven't. The FT expose detailed how utterly clueless Shagger and Frost were at what the negotiation was. No clue as to the value of the variables they were trading, no objectives other than being able to crow about sovereignty. People show that video of a (drunken?) Boris regaling the NI businesspeople with a guarantee that there will be no paperwork as him lying.

    I don't think he was lying, I just think he hadn't a clue how any of it worked. The same is true with so many of the morons in the cabinet whether it be Raaaaaab not understanding the importance and scale of Dover - Calais, or Patel not getting that SHE controls the border, or Lewis not understanding that his department manages the GB - NI border he insists doesn't exist. These people are stupid, literally clueless.

    How could the lying sex-pest insist no paperwork then sign a deal with paperwork then insist there is no paperwork? Because he didn't understand how anything works and still doesn't care. Detail is for the little people. When the party turf him out and his legacy gets binned and reversed as quickly as the Poll Tax was, he will continue to be baffled. 'Didn't I deliver what people asked for?' NO!
    That sounds right. Boris was not lying about no border in the Irish Sea: he did not understand what the term meant or the consequences of his own deal.

    On the question of Irish reunification, although @AlastairMeeks is right that this will be accelerated by Brexit and its Irish Sea border, it is not clear that this is in any way due to the DUP, even if Brexit is what the DUP campaigned for.

    One factor that should not be overlooked is the recent economic growth of Ireland. It is no longer a relatively poor, religion-dominated, largely agrarian state. Its GDP per capita is higher than Britain's. Following the Good Friday Agreement, the border is, if not invisible, then transparent. The Troubles are consigned to the history books. The influence of the church is much diminished. A united Ireland is no longer scary.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376

    Mr. Pioneers, if the economic argument held sway we would easily have voted to Remain.

    As an aside, it's also a black swan that the most immediate advantage of leaving has been the better vaccine procurement. Accountability has its upsides.

    There is a world of difference between projections and reality. The "project fear" mantra was built around political arguments and projections. Now we just have reality. We don't need to argue about whether the GB - NI border works or not, we understand that it doesn't. We don't need to argue about whether the deal will be catastrophic for our ability to freely trade, we understand that it is.

    As for "we got the vaccine quicker cos we left the EU" that has the same merits as "we had to leave the EU to take back control of our borders - we couldn't shut them as EU members. When the Dr (I forget her name) who personally signed off the vaccines post trial shot that fox dead at the press conference, its almost funny to read that she was actually wrong.
    I do think you've been over-egging the prospect of Armageddon as a result of Brexit for a long time. There is nothing remotely approaching "catastrophe" taking place due to Brexit.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    Roger said:

    Have the celebrations died down from looking at the well worn photo of Johnson receiving a phone call from Biden yet?

    Sad losers all excited at being 3rd to get a phone call.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533

    Scott_xP said:

    I have been wondering why all these mainland UK companies who have, often reluctantly, started setting up satellite offices in EU or employing EU proxies to handle some of their sales, aren't thinking about setting up in NI?

    We are setting up a new office in the EU. Do you guys want to move to Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin, or Belfast...
    I've been to the first two. But not the second two. Personally I would rather live in Amsterdam than Paris.
    Yes...been to all of them, and would rank them Amsterdam/Berlin/Paris/Belfast. Belfast is definitely the one that feels most like a foreign country, though quite a grand one with a lot of fine old buildings for a relatively small city. Amsterdam feels like a pleasant version of home.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    DavidL said:

    On topic Alastair's desire to prove everything bad that might happen in the next millenium is an inevitable consequence of Brexit and proves that everyone who voted for it is an idiot really understates pretty long running trends in NI. The Protestants have been losing their majority for 30 years at least and we are at the switching point where the non religious are already the swing voters and the catholics have a plurality.

    The deal with NI reflects not evil incompetence but the reality that NI is much more integrated with a much more dynamic Southern Ireland than it was when Ireland had a pretty ordinary agricultural economy. That needed to be protected. NI is not economically strong as it is and could not afford to lose access to that dynamism. Will there come a point when Ireland offers more than the UK? Maybe. But probably not for a while yet.

    The key point with the Northern Ireland Protocol is that Johnson deliberately prioritised the ability of England to diverge from the European Union over maintaining the integrity of the United Kingdom, And to make this clearer, Theresa May prioritised the other way. That's the difference between the two deals.

    The union flags that Johnson drapes himself in are just as fraudulent as the rest of his act. The surprising thing about this story is that the DUP went along with it, with enthusiasm, Whatever you might think of the DUP you would expect them to sniff out a fake Unionist at twenty paces.
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