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Of talking dogs and politicians – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited January 10 in General
imageOf talking dogs and politicians – politicalbetting.com

We’re still allowed to take daily exercise and I expect that most readers do.  If, like me, you go for a walk, you have no doubt been treated to the experience of an unleashed dog bounding up to you. As it barks and jumps, you regularly hear the owner breezily assure you: “don’t worry, he won’t bite”. On such occasions, an ex of mine used to reply sardonically: “fuck me, a talking dog”.

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Comments

  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354
    edited January 10
    A macabre thought struck me in the night. I expect others on here have had it.

    Following the riots and seeing the visceral anger of the mob, captured brilliantly by ITN's Robert Moore, I hope Joe Biden has phenomenal protection for his term in office. A right-wing assassination attempt seems to me pretty likely. Obviously I hope it doesn't happen.

    Ghoulish, macabre and distatestful it may be but a bet on Kamala Harris might be prudent.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,067
    Tradition and myth count much. Unlike Brasil and others the USA has over 200 years of (sometimes tumultuous) democratic tradition. The fact that trump got so many votes is a problem, but his attempts to undermine convention (thank you Georgia!) has failed. The US now needs to reassert its traditions, starting by finding out why the Capitol was so poorly guarded and prosecuting the wingnuts who invaded it.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354
    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 3,726
    edited January 10
    Some good observations above.

    An excellent article below, which perfectly encapsulates how more economically marginalised parts of America have been pressed into the service of ultra-capitalism by its prevailing media culture of the last three decades.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/09/us-capitol-attackers-violence-rural-west

    "When the full story of the 6 January storming of the US Capitol building is told, historians will have to make sense of what might seem an odd footnote. The two most prominent rightwing militia groups that participated in the mob onslaught on Congress – the Three Percenters, based in Idaho, and the Oath Keepers, based in Nevada – cut their teeth in obscure corners of the American west, where for close to a decade they have threatened violence against federal employees and institutions that steward the nation’s public lands.

    “The mob violence that swarmed the halls of the Capitol building and other government offices flows from a series of smaller armed insurrections by domestic terrorists across the west,” says Erik Molvar, executive director of the Western Watersheds Project, a non-profit that advocates for environmental regulation of public lands.

    Time after time in Idaho, Nevada and Utah, the Three Percenters and Oath Keepers, paramilitary organizations formed in the wake of Barack Obama’s election in 2008, have come to the rescue of ranchers, miners and loggers who have violated federal environmental regulations on the public domain but who the militias said were innocent commoners oppressed by a vicious state apparatus."
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 5,155
    "Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce." The Bierkeller theory is that we are getting it the other way round this time, and the tragedy is still to come. I think this is pessimistic because the people keeping and bearing arms is neither here nor there against the might of the modern state. A coup traditionally requires the allegiance of the military (or some of it) and seizing the state broadcaster. In modern terms Trump has been thrown off twitter and 10 out of 10 Defence secretaries are prepared to go into print during his presidency to say that he's an arse. I am predisposed to catastrophising when the situation requires it but in this instance I think Trump is a busted flush.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,683
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Rose, I think that's bollocks, as an excuse. I agree it's entirely possible some people thought that way, but if they did they're bloody idiots.

    "Well, that guy got away with it so I will too" is a moronic approach when dealing with an infectious disease.

    That's not to say the PM handled it anything like well. As with so many things, he did not. But his incompetence is no excuse for individuals to abandon the concept of responsibility (for self-preservation, no less!) in favour of an infantile strop.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,707
    edited January 10
    Having been amused by the events of the last few weeks from the safe distance of several thousand miles I was struck by two things.

    The first is how much power a President has.It's easy to compare them to our PM and think that on paper they're similar. They're not. Filling the Cabinet with his family would have seen him off on day one. Vesting so much power in the hands of one person sane or not. Directly voted or not is not a good idea

    The second is how much I miss the sanctity of the EU. It's easy to think the days of going to war with our neighbours is long gone so keeping the peace is no longer an issue but if you wanted the non belligerent security of any grouping in the world you would choose it to be the EU.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 8,498

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Rose, I think that's bollocks, as an excuse. I agree it's entirely possible some people thought that way, but if they did they're bloody idiots.

    "Well, that guy got away with it so I will too" is a moronic approach when dealing with an infectious disease.

    That's not to say the PM handled it anything like well. As with so many things, he did not. But his incompetence is no excuse for individuals to abandon the concept of responsibility (for self-preservation, no less!) in favour of an infantile strop.

    Whether it is a good excuse or not, it happened and was obviously going to happen. It is human nature - we do not need good excuses for our actions!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 8,498
    Another really good article, is this the best week of pb headers ever? I think it may be.

    Two key takeaways for me - Trump does not need to be defined by a label, he is important enough in history and unique enough for us to need to treat him simply as Trump, and that his future remains very uncertain even if his current world looks bleak (for him).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,903

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,707
    Sanctity=sanctuary!
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,068

    Another really good article, is this the best week of pb headers ever? I think it may be.

    Two key takeaways for me - Trump does not need to be defined by a label, he is important enough in history and unique enough for us to need to treat him simply as Trump, and that his future remains very uncertain even if his current world looks bleak (for him).

    My reading of the article is that we have become too accustomed to sloppily labelling anyone we don’t like as a fascist. And the consequence of that is that when a real one arrived we didn’t realise it. Trump should have been impeached first time round.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 20,920


    Looks a well documented case, and severe illness second time.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,068

    Another really good article, is this the best week of pb headers ever? I think it may be.

    Two key takeaways for me - Trump does not need to be defined by a label, he is important enough in history and unique enough for us to need to treat him simply as Trump, and that his future remains very uncertain even if his current world looks bleak (for him).

    My reading of the article is that we have become too accustomed to sloppily labelling anyone we don’t like as a fascist. And the consequence of that is that when a real one arrived we didn’t realise it. Trump should have been impeached first time round.
    And to add, we were only saved because he is an incompetent fascist.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 50,909
    Roger said:

    Having been amused by the events of the last few weeks from the safe distance of several thousand miles I was struck by two things.

    The first is how much power a President has.It's easy to compare them to our PM and think that on paper they're similar. They're not. Filling the Cabinet with his family would have seen him off on day one. Vesting so much power in the hands of one person sane or not. Directly voted or not is not a good idea

    The second is how much I miss the sanctity of the EU. It's easy to think the days of going to war with our neighbours is long gone so keeping the peace is no longer an issue but if you wanted the non belligerent security of any grouping in the world you would choose it to be the EU.

    Ah, so leaving the EU makes it more likely the UK is going to war with another European country? I would have thought the UK's membership of NATO would have avoided that.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,707
    edited January 10
    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    If you think our very own Rasputin wouldn't be known outside the Westminster village if it hadn't been for a venal press then you have even less respect for the intelligence of your fellow countrymen than I have.

    And that's saying something!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 10
    BBC News - Parler: Amazon to remove site from web hosting service

    Amazon told Parler it had found 98 posts on the site that encouraged violence. Apple and Google have removed the app from their stores.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55608081

    Only 98...if that's the line in the sand, twitter is screwed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 34,494
    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    Cummings was very well known and very much disliked and distrusted outside the ‘Westminster village’ before the scandal.

    Part of the problem, on top of the lawbreaking, the hypocrisy and the extraordinary dishonesty was simply that people hated him and were therefore especially furious with the way he had behaved, and at the same time, feeling he had confirmed everything they had ever said about him.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,924
    IanB2 said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Rose, I think that's bollocks, as an excuse. I agree it's entirely possible some people thought that way, but if they did they're bloody idiots.

    "Well, that guy got away with it so I will too" is a moronic approach when dealing with an infectious disease.

    That's not to say the PM handled it anything like well. As with so many things, he did not. But his incompetence is no excuse for individuals to abandon the concept of responsibility (for self-preservation, no less!) in favour of an infantile strop.

    Not so, Mr D. The point about lockdowns is that they impose upon us what are essentially irrational restrictions, in the name of the common good. The detail of the rules and guidance are not sensible lines to defend in the context of fighting the virus - the length of your exercise, how many times a day you go out, whether you buy this or that, precisely how many people you meet - they are but simply arbitrary compromises between locking everyone indoors permanently, and having no restrictions at all.

    Willingness to go along with such depends heavily on the feeling that we are all in the same boat. The emotions stirred up by Cummings’s behaviour - not just the breach but the patent pack of lies he told to explain it and the lack of any punishment or sanction - were surely akin to those stirred up under wartime rationing on finding that some local bigwig is getting extra eggs on the black market, and nothing is being done about it.

    Most of us prefer to make our own judgements (as some PB’ers did from the outset) and that is where most people are now.
    Quite, Mr 82. Plenty of people in high, and not so high, places have been 'caught' breaking lockdown, have 'fessed up and the matter has been, if not forgotten, reduced to background noise. However, someone n a high place not only 'offended' but lied about it, and then, when the lies were exposed, was defended by his boss, one of the highest in the land, with what might well be described as 'an inverted pyramid of piffle'. As someone once said.
    The fact that, nearly nine months we still worry about it, and worse, make jokes about it means that it was pushed high into public awareness. Which it wouldn't have been if all concerned had not been at pains to make silly and unbelievable excuses.

    Rather like Trump effectively saying the other day 'That's enough, be good now and go home!' when lives were clearly at risk.

    And Good Morning everyone.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 8,498

    BBC News - Parler: Amazon to remove site from web hosting service

    Amazon told Parler it had found 98 posts on the site that encouraged violence. Apple and Google have removed the app from their stores.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55608081

    Only 98...if that's the line in the sand, twitter is screwed.

    People are going to have to realise businesses dont need to be fair or consistent. If they dont want to be associated with treasonous scum that is within their right. It is not much different from the pub landlord can bar who they like.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 31,369
    Roger said:

    Having been amused by the events of the last few weeks from the safe distance of several thousand miles I was struck by two things.

    The first is how much power a President has.It's easy to compare them to our PM and think that on paper they're similar. They're not. Filling the Cabinet with his family would have seen him off on day one. Vesting so much power in the hands of one person sane or not. Directly voted or not is not a good idea

    The second is how much I miss the sanctity of the EU. It's easy to think the days of going to war with our neighbours is long gone so keeping the peace is no longer an issue but if you wanted the non belligerent security of any grouping in the world you would choose it to be the EU.

    Yes and no. Power in the US is spread between the President, House, and the Senate - and the different timings and methods of election tend to deliver divisions of that power between the parties much more often than not.

    Whereas under our majoritarian system there aren't such checks - local government is powerless and the Lords almost so. Look how easily we have been confined by law to our homes, without even a parliamentary vote, much to the anger of some on even the government's own side. It may not be one man (person), but a small clique has exceptional power under our very centralised system. And, given the exceptional patronage and firing power that one person has, he or she simply needs to select people who will not cause any trouble.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 31,369
    Roger said:

    Sanctity=sanctuary!

    It's a view, I suppose.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 34,494

    BBC News - Parler: Amazon to remove site from web hosting service

    Amazon told Parler it had found 98 posts on the site that encouraged violence. Apple and Google have removed the app from their stores.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55608081

    Only 98...if that's the line in the sand, twitter is screwed.

    We can but hope.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 10
    ydoethur said:

    BBC News - Parler: Amazon to remove site from web hosting service

    Amazon told Parler it had found 98 posts on the site that encouraged violence. Apple and Google have removed the app from their stores.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55608081

    Only 98...if that's the line in the sand, twitter is screwed.

    We can but hope.
    Of course the get out is that AWS say it is because Parler doesn't have proper policies in place to moderate content.....but then apps like WhatsApp by construction can't because it is encrypted chat.

    As we saw last week it gets dicey once they go from banning nutters like Alex Jones to mainstream regulated media outlet like TalkRadio.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 732
    edited January 10
    From Alastair's initial paragraph I thought he was going to inveigh against dog walkers. They appear to be increasing exponentially. All too often I seem to be the only dog-free person in the park and therefore an object of deep suspicion. "Where's your little bag of poo?" their accusing eyes seem to say, "Where's your mangey tennis ball, and that stupid stick thing to launch it with? Where's your 20m leash for snaring passers-by? It's alright, he won't hurt you, he just wants to be friendly."
  • eekeek Posts: 10,100
    Good article except for the flaw that the demonstration was on Wednesday not Tuesday.

    Tuesday was the Georgia Run-off.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,707
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Having been amused by the events of the last few weeks from the safe distance of several thousand miles I was struck by two things.

    The first is how much power a President has.It's easy to compare them to our PM and think that on paper they're similar. They're not. Filling the Cabinet with his family would have seen him off on day one. Vesting so much power in the hands of one person sane or not. Directly voted or not is not a good idea

    The second is how much I miss the sanctuary of the EU. It's easy to think the days of going to war with our neighbours is long gone so keeping the peace is no longer an issue but if you wanted the non belligerent security of any grouping in the world you would choose it to be the EU.

    Ah, so leaving the EU makes it more likely the UK is going to war with another European country? I would have thought the UK's membership of NATO would have avoided that.
    No not at all. I must have explained it badly. It's long been said that the EU has prevented wars between historic enemies. I'm sure it has but this doesn't apply anymore. Being part of a power block gives you a soft power which is the most important type to have in today's world and the best and most influential gang to be in (by a country mile) is the EU.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 31,369

    From Alastair's initial paragraph I thought he was going to inveigh against dog walkers. They appear to be increasing exponentially. All too often I seem to be the only dog-free person in the park and therefore an object of deep suspicion. "Where's your little bag of poo?" their accusing eyes seem to say, "Where's your mangey tennis ball, and that stupid stick thing to launch it with? Where's your 20m leash for snaring passers-by? It's alright, he won't hurt you, he just wants to be friendly."

    Supply of dogs (reduced by the recent banning of unlicensed breeding) prevents an exponential increase. As it is, dog prices have more than trebled, with even regular cockapoo puppies selling for £3000.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 4,702
    I have always thought that Trump was in the fascist tradition. On a policy front: the Muslim ban, kids in cages, America first; the bullying rhetoric and open support for the far right; disdain for democratic norms; use of propaganda; hatred of the free press; I could go on. To be honest, though, you can tell Trump is a fascist just by looking at his living room.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 4,702
    In case this hasn't been posted, a useful catalogue of how the Brexit deal is already doing serious economic harm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/baffling-brexit-rules-threaten-export-chaos-gove-is-warned
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 20
    IanB2 said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Rose, I think that's bollocks, as an excuse. I agree it's entirely possible some people thought that way, but if they did they're bloody idiots.

    "Well, that guy got away with it so I will too" is a moronic approach when dealing with an infectious disease.

    That's not to say the PM handled it anything like well. As with so many things, he did not. But his incompetence is no excuse for individuals to abandon the concept of responsibility (for self-preservation, no less!) in favour of an infantile strop.

    Not so, Mr D. The point about lockdowns is that they impose upon us what are essentially irrational restrictions, in the name of the common good. The detail of the rules and guidance are not sensible lines to defend in the context of fighting the virus - the length of your exercise, how many times a day you go out, whether you buy this or that, precisely how many people you meet - they are but simply arbitrary compromises between locking everyone indoors permanently, and having no restrictions at all.

    Willingness to go along with such depends heavily on the feeling that we are all in the same boat. The emotions stirred up by Cummings’s behaviour - not just the breach but the patent pack of lies he told to explain it and the lack of any punishment or sanction - were surely akin to those stirred up under wartime rationing on finding that some local bigwig is getting extra eggs on the black market, and nothing is being done about it.

    Most of us prefer to make our own judgements (as some PB’ers did from the outset) and that is where most people are now.
    This is an excellent point regarding lockdown measures. My father is a COVID sceptic and will constantly pick at the efficacy of each individual restriction.

    The point I always make is that it's the goal of reducing contact between people that matters. Each rule is superfluous but if you get rid of one restriction you need to beef up another. Don't want a mask mandate? No problem but then we'll have to close all shops and indoor spaces. Don't want travel restrictions? Then we'll have to have mandatory quarantine you every time you travel outside of a specified area.

    The current and first lockdown represent the combination of each measure that the public will tolerate keeping the overall goal in mind. As you say Mr D none of them make sense individually and if the public don't comply en masse then another combination will need to be found.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 4,702

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    Cummings was very well known and very much disliked and distrusted outside the ‘Westminster village’ before the scandal.

    Part of the problem, on top of the lawbreaking, the hypocrisy and the extraordinary dishonesty was simply that people hated him and were therefore especially furious with the way he had behaved, and at the same time, feeling he had confirmed everything they had ever said about him.
    The Cummings period is, in a certain sense, the most concrete link to Trumpism between the two governments. When Cummings produced that shameless press conference in the Downing Street garden, with the menacing shamelessness that told you with a nudge and a wink it was total crap, it was pure Trump. When Johnson started his most inflammatory talk of the "surrender bill" in parliament in November 2019, and at the peak of Cummings' infliuence, that was Trumpism too.
    Johnson can't decide if he is Bertie Wooster or Roderick Spode.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 5,155
    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    A principle which would preclude the press from reporting any malfeasance by pretty much anyone.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 31,369
    CNN - With less than two weeks until President-elect Joe Biden takes office, the nation is on edge -- unsure whether Trump will incite another round of violence or just carry on, petulantly, seeking outlets to whine about Twitter's decision to ban him. Recognizing the instability, Vice President Mike Pence has not ruled out an effort to invoke the 25th Amendment, a source close to the vice president told CNN Saturday night. The relationship between Trump and Pence is fractured -- they haven't spoken since Wednesday, when a violent mob stormed the Capitol, and the President never bothered to check on Pence's safety.

    The political calculations now consuming both parties' brass are playing out against the backdrop of more imminent threats. Security concerns ahead of Biden's January 20 inaugural are growing. Chatter on right-wing, pro-Trump social media forums has turned increasingly virulent -- and it is unclear whether the President, even if he so chose, could rein it in. Worries over future violence extend beyond the Capitol and its immediate surroundings. American and United Airlines, with the support of two flight attendants' unions, have taken steps to beef up security in the air and on the ground. Both carriers have increased staffing at DC-area airports, which will also see deployments of Capitol Police ahead of Inauguration Day, and American has put a stop on alcohol service on flights into and out of the region.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,707
    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    Having been amused by the events of the last few weeks from the safe distance of several thousand miles I was struck by two things.

    The first is how much power a President has.It's easy to compare them to our PM and think that on paper they're similar. They're not. Filling the Cabinet with his family would have seen him off on day one. Vesting so much power in the hands of one person sane or not. Directly voted or not is not a good idea

    The second is how much I miss the sanctity of the EU. It's easy to think the days of going to war with our neighbours is long gone so keeping the peace is no longer an issue but if you wanted the non belligerent security of any grouping in the world you would choose it to be the EU.

    Yes and no. Power in the US is spread between the President, House, and the Senate - and the different timings and methods of election tend to deliver divisions of that power between the parties much more often than not.

    Whereas under our majoritarian system there aren't such checks - local government is powerless and the Lords almost so. Look how easily we have been confined by law to our homes, without even a parliamentary vote, much to the anger of some on even the government's own side. It may not be one man (person), but a small clique has exceptional power under our very centralised system. And, given the exceptional patronage and firing power that one person has, he or she simply needs to select people who will not cause any trouble.
    I was struck by the pictures of the storming of the Capitol Building that stands had been erected for the people invited by the President to listen to him. It had echoes of Ancient Rome.

    Could a British PM call the mob to Westminster because he wanted to make a speech and get the police to man it and construction crews to build the amphitheatre? I don't think so. He'd need so many permissions it just couldn't happen
  • eekeek Posts: 10,100

    ydoethur said:

    BBC News - Parler: Amazon to remove site from web hosting service

    Amazon told Parler it had found 98 posts on the site that encouraged violence. Apple and Google have removed the app from their stores.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55608081

    Only 98...if that's the line in the sand, twitter is screwed.

    We can but hope.
    Of course the get out is that AWS say it is because Parler doesn't have proper policies in place to moderate content.....but then apps like WhatsApp by construction can't because it is encrypted chat.

    As we saw last week it gets dicey once they go from banning nutters like Alex Jones to mainstream regulated media outlet like TalkRadio.
    While I fully see why AWS would want to remove Parler I have a serious dislike of the 24 hour deadline given to find a replacement host.

    if Parler have written any of the app using AWS tools they are not going to be able to leave with a working app in anything like that timeframe (it may takes months to rewrite items).

    Were I an AWS customer (and I'm not as I'm an Azure house) I would be asking for confirmation that I wouldn't be given the same impossible deadline.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,683
    Mr. Doethur, that is a good point that I'd forgotten about.

    Whilst people should still be responsible, the Government bears more burden of the blame than my earlier post indicated.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,903
    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    A principle which would preclude the press from reporting any malfeasance by pretty much anyone.
    Of course the press should be free to report what they wish. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be held accountable for their decision to talk about pretty much nothing else for more than a week at the height of a pandemic.
  • IanB2 said:

    From Alastair's initial paragraph I thought he was going to inveigh against dog walkers. They appear to be increasing exponentially. All too often I seem to be the only dog-free person in the park and therefore an object of deep suspicion. "Where's your little bag of poo?" their accusing eyes seem to say, "Where's your mangey tennis ball, and that stupid stick thing to launch it with? Where's your 20m leash for snaring passers-by? It's alright, he won't hurt you, he just wants to be friendly."

    Supply of dogs (reduced by the recent banning of unlicensed breeding) prevents an exponential increase. As it is, dog prices have more than trebled, with even regular cockapoo puppies selling for £3000.
    This may explain why new dog owners cannot afford poop-and-scoop bags.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 3,793
    Roger said:

    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    Having been amused by the events of the last few weeks from the safe distance of several thousand miles I was struck by two things.

    The first is how much power a President has.It's easy to compare them to our PM and think that on paper they're similar. They're not. Filling the Cabinet with his family would have seen him off on day one. Vesting so much power in the hands of one person sane or not. Directly voted or not is not a good idea

    The second is how much I miss the sanctity of the EU. It's easy to think the days of going to war with our neighbours is long gone so keeping the peace is no longer an issue but if you wanted the non belligerent security of any grouping in the world you would choose it to be the EU.

    Yes and no. Power in the US is spread between the President, House, and the Senate - and the different timings and methods of election tend to deliver divisions of that power between the parties much more often than not.

    Whereas under our majoritarian system there aren't such checks - local government is powerless and the Lords almost so. Look how easily we have been confined by law to our homes, without even a parliamentary vote, much to the anger of some on even the government's own side. It may not be one man (person), but a small clique has exceptional power under our very centralised system. And, given the exceptional patronage and firing power that one person has, he or she simply needs to select people who will not cause any trouble.
    I was struck by the pictures of the storming of the Capitol Building that stands had been erected for the people invited by the President to listen to him. It had echoes of Ancient Rome.

    Could a British PM call the mob to Westminster because he wanted to make a speech and get the police to man it and construction crews to build the amphitheatre? I don't think so. He'd need so many permissions it just couldn't happen
    Surely the stands are for the Inauguration. They're for Biden, and for a State ceremony, not Trump.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 10

    Roger said:

    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    Having been amused by the events of the last few weeks from the safe distance of several thousand miles I was struck by two things.

    The first is how much power a President has.It's easy to compare them to our PM and think that on paper they're similar. They're not. Filling the Cabinet with his family would have seen him off on day one. Vesting so much power in the hands of one person sane or not. Directly voted or not is not a good idea

    The second is how much I miss the sanctity of the EU. It's easy to think the days of going to war with our neighbours is long gone so keeping the peace is no longer an issue but if you wanted the non belligerent security of any grouping in the world you would choose it to be the EU.

    Yes and no. Power in the US is spread between the President, House, and the Senate - and the different timings and methods of election tend to deliver divisions of that power between the parties much more often than not.

    Whereas under our majoritarian system there aren't such checks - local government is powerless and the Lords almost so. Look how easily we have been confined by law to our homes, without even a parliamentary vote, much to the anger of some on even the government's own side. It may not be one man (person), but a small clique has exceptional power under our very centralised system. And, given the exceptional patronage and firing power that one person has, he or she simply needs to select people who will not cause any trouble.
    I was struck by the pictures of the storming of the Capitol Building that stands had been erected for the people invited by the President to listen to him. It had echoes of Ancient Rome.

    Could a British PM call the mob to Westminster because he wanted to make a speech and get the police to man it and construction crews to build the amphitheatre? I don't think so. He'd need so many permissions it just couldn't happen
    Surely the stands are for the Inauguration. They're for Biden, and for a State ceremony, not Trump.
    They were / are....Roger wrong, surely not.
  • eekeek Posts: 10,100

    In case this hasn't been posted, a useful catalogue of how the Brexit deal is already doing serious economic harm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/baffling-brexit-rules-threaten-export-chaos-gove-is-warned

    A story which rather tellingly isn't being told in the right wing press. Various trade bodies who represent significant swathes of the economy saying the new rules are so unworkable that the government need to reopen negotiations. This quote from the CEO of Make UK is key:

    "“There are customs experts with 30 years’ experience who are baffled by what the new regulations mean, let alone small- and medium-sized businesses who have never had to deal with the kind of paperwork that is now required. The great fear is that for many it will prove too much and they will simply choose not to export to the EU.”"

    The government didn't understand how trade works and have ended up with a deal which they don't understand. Having soent years saying fuck business and branding warnings as Project Fear it'll be a painful revelation to find out that manufacturing and logistics experts actually did know what they were talking about after all.

    This isn't just "apply the same paperwork as you would for anywhere else what's the problem?" as some parrots on here have re-squawked. This is a deal which does not work at a fundamental practical level for the supply chain of the UK.

    Final observation. However bad this gets for the government, Labour will struggle to profit. As the omnishambles deal collapses and the stupidity of both it's structure and the details is laid bare, Labour attacks will be batted aside with a simple line. "You voted for it". Bravo Keith, bravo.
    Hardly - the final vote was between leaving without a deal or leaving with a deal.

    Both versions introduced whole piles of paperwork the only thing the deal avoided was tariffs on top of the paperwork.

    Sadly politicians (and the general public) think it's tariffs that creates issues but as anyone who has exported things will know it's the paperwork that takes time and kills you.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 3,386

    From Alastair's initial paragraph I thought he was going to inveigh against dog walkers. They appear to be increasing exponentially. All too often I seem to be the only dog-free person in the park and therefore an object of deep suspicion. "Where's your little bag of poo?" their accusing eyes seem to say, "Where's your mangey tennis ball, and that stupid stick thing to launch it with? Where's your 20m leash for snaring passers-by? It's alright, he won't hurt you, he just wants to be friendly."

    I think we're right to view you with deep suspicion if that's your attitude.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354
    It looks increasingly possible to me that Donald Trump is heading to jail.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,043
    edited January 10
    Welsh snail watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55605111

    So, we now discover that the Welsh Government has already got 270,000 COVID doses

    And used only 50,000 of them. They have so far used only 18 per cent of what has been delivered.

    Sir "Round the Clock Vaccinations" has forgotten to mention to his Welsh colleagues that there is a great urgency to get jabs in arms.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Rose, I think that's bollocks, as an excuse. I agree it's entirely possible some people thought that way, but if they did they're bloody idiots.

    "Well, that guy got away with it so I will too" is a moronic approach when dealing with an infectious disease.
    .

    That completely misses the point. So entirely in fact that I'm wondering how I can convey it to you? Dom Cummings wasn't any old bloke. He was the centre of Government, the beating heart of Downing Street. The place from which the lifeblood of the nation's collective approach to the pandemic pumped.

    His breach of the rules and failure to be censured was as if we were shot through the heart.

    Of course, if you are an extreme individualist anti-statist you won't get this. But most of us in Britain, pace Thatcher, still believe in society.

    Ms Rose
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    Cummings was very well known and very much disliked and distrusted outside the ‘Westminster village’ before the scandal.

    Part of the problem, on top of the lawbreaking, the hypocrisy and the extraordinary dishonesty was simply that people hated him and were therefore especially furious with the way he had behaved, and at the same time, feeling he had confirmed everything they had ever said about him.
    The Cummings period is, in a certain sense, the most concrete link to Trumpism between the two governments. When Cummings produced that shameless press conference in the Downing Street garden, with the menacing shamelessness that told you with a nudge and a wink it was total crap, it was pure Trump. When Johnson started his most inflammatory talk of the "surrender bill" in parliament in November 2019, and at the peak of Cummings' infliuence, that was Trumpism too.
    Absolutely
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,683
    Ms. Rose, my apologies.

    Also, later down the thread, I do amend my view. I'd forgotten the wishy-washy stupid line the Government took which helped dilute compliance from the public.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354

    From Alastair's initial paragraph I thought he was going to inveigh against dog walkers. They appear to be increasing exponentially. All too often I seem to be the only dog-free person in the park and therefore an object of deep suspicion. "Where's your little bag of poo?" their accusing eyes seem to say, "Where's your mangey tennis ball, and that stupid stick thing to launch it with? Where's your 20m leash for snaring passers-by? It's alright, he won't hurt you, he just wants to be friendly."

    I think we're right to view you with deep suspicion if that's your attitude.
    Oh I dunno. I'm a dog owner and I totally get it. There was a tongue-in-cheek article last year about viewing walkers who don't have a dog at their heel as, basically, rapists in the wings.
  • eek said:

    In case this hasn't been posted, a useful catalogue of how the Brexit deal is already doing serious economic harm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/baffling-brexit-rules-threaten-export-chaos-gove-is-warned

    A story which rather tellingly isn't being told in the right wing press. Various trade bodies who represent significant swathes of the economy saying the new rules are so unworkable that the government need to reopen negotiations. This quote from the CEO of Make UK is key:

    "“There are customs experts with 30 years’ experience who are baffled by what the new regulations mean, let alone small- and medium-sized businesses who have never had to deal with the kind of paperwork that is now required. The great fear is that for many it will prove too much and they will simply choose not to export to the EU.”"

    The government didn't understand how trade works and have ended up with a deal which they don't understand. Having soent years saying fuck business and branding warnings as Project Fear it'll be a painful revelation to find out that manufacturing and logistics experts actually did know what they were talking about after all.

    This isn't just "apply the same paperwork as you would for anywhere else what's the problem?" as some parrots on here have re-squawked. This is a deal which does not work at a fundamental practical level for the supply chain of the UK.

    Final observation. However bad this gets for the government, Labour will struggle to profit. As the omnishambles deal collapses and the stupidity of both it's structure and the details is laid bare, Labour attacks will be batted aside with a simple line. "You voted for it". Bravo Keith, bravo.
    Hardly - the final vote was between leaving without a deal or leaving with a deal.

    Both versions introduced whole piles of paperwork the only thing the deal avoided was tariffs on top of the paperwork.

    Sadly politicians (and the general public) think it's tariffs that creates issues but as anyone who has exported things will know it's the paperwork that takes time and kills you.
    The Tories have a majority of 80. The deal was going to pass regardless of whether the opposition gave their consent or not. So the vote was the deal with our agreement or the deal without the agreement.

    An important lesson Labour didn't learn from the Coalition. The coalition did a lot of positive things and a whole pile of negative things. Tory bills backed by LibDem MPs are still hung around the neck of the LibDems years later. "You voted for it". This is the fate that Labour have chosen.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,924

    From Alastair's initial paragraph I thought he was going to inveigh against dog walkers. They appear to be increasing exponentially. All too often I seem to be the only dog-free person in the park and therefore an object of deep suspicion. "Where's your little bag of poo?" their accusing eyes seem to say, "Where's your mangey tennis ball, and that stupid stick thing to launch it with? Where's your 20m leash for snaring passers-by? It's alright, he won't hurt you, he just wants to be friendly."

    I think we're right to view you with deep suspicion if that's your attitude.
    One of the reasons my wife and I don't want a dog is the need to scoop poop. Not that I want dog mess in the street, as was common in my youth, I just don't want the bother.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 10
    I have no idea how these footballers are all getting covid despite the clubs are doing all their shopping for them...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/13698278/benjamin-mendy-breaches-lockdown-flying-greece-lover/
  • StockyStocky Posts: 4,665

    A macabre thought struck me in the night. I expect others on here have had it.

    Following the riots and seeing the visceral anger of the mob, captured brilliantly by ITN's Robert Moore, I hope Joe Biden has phenomenal protection for his term in office. A right-wing assassination attempt seems to me pretty likely. Obviously I hope it doesn't happen.

    Ghoulish, macabre and distatestful it may be but a bet on Kamala Harris might be prudent.

    I agree - but there is no betting market for "next President" up yet is there? (There are markets for who wins in 2024, but that is different.)
  • FossFoss Posts: 198

    Welsh snail watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55605111

    So, we now discover that the Welsh Government has already got 270,000 COVID doses

    And used only 50,000 of them. They have so far used only 18 per cent of what has been delivered.

    Sir "Round the Clock Vaccinations" has forgotten to mention to his Welsh colleagues that there is a great urgency to get jabs in arms.

    If Wales has proportionality the same percentage of the vaccine as its percentage of the population then that would imply that there are nearly six million shots in the system.

    Have there been any numbers released for the other home nations?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 5,155

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Rose, I think that's bollocks, as an excuse. I agree it's entirely possible some people thought that way, but if they did they're bloody idiots.

    "Well, that guy got away with it so I will too" is a moronic approach when dealing with an infectious disease.

    That's not to say the PM handled it anything like well. As with so many things, he did not. But his incompetence is no excuse for individuals to abandon the concept of responsibility (for self-preservation, no less!) in favour of an infantile strop.

    I think you need to consider the concept of "a plague on both your houses." We (rightly, most people think) legislate against heroin dealers, for instance, despite the fact that their customers are bloody idiots.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 31,369
    I see #Marr is on topic this morning
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 29,037
    IshmaelZ said:

    "Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce." The Bierkeller theory is that we are getting it the other way round this time, and the tragedy is still to come. I think this is pessimistic because the people keeping and bearing arms is neither here nor there against the might of the modern state. A coup traditionally requires the allegiance of the military (or some of it) and seizing the state broadcaster. In modern terms Trump has been thrown off twitter and 10 out of 10 Defence secretaries are prepared to go into print during his presidency to say that he's an arse. I am predisposed to catastrophising when the situation requires it but in this instance I think Trump is a busted flush.

    No coup or revolution can hope for success without the backing of at least a substantial proportion of the armed forces.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 2,300

    From Alastair's initial paragraph I thought he was going to inveigh against dog walkers. They appear to be increasing exponentially. All too often I seem to be the only dog-free person in the park and therefore an object of deep suspicion. "Where's your little bag of poo?" their accusing eyes seem to say, "Where's your mangey tennis ball, and that stupid stick thing to launch it with? Where's your 20m leash for snaring passers-by? It's alright, he won't hurt you, he just wants to be friendly."

    I think we're right to view you with deep suspicion if that's your attitude.
    Oh I dunno. I'm a dog owner and I totally get it. There was a tongue-in-cheek article last year about viewing walkers who don't have a dog at their heel as, basically, rapists in the wings.
    I am a dog owner. I see individuals walking and never think of them as rapists in the wings. If you think that I suggest the problem isnt with the non dog owner.

    I am much more uncomfortable with people not wearing masks.
  • eekeek Posts: 10,100

    eek said:

    In case this hasn't been posted, a useful catalogue of how the Brexit deal is already doing serious economic harm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/baffling-brexit-rules-threaten-export-chaos-gove-is-warned

    A story which rather tellingly isn't being told in the right wing press. Various trade bodies who represent significant swathes of the economy saying the new rules are so unworkable that the government need to reopen negotiations. This quote from the CEO of Make UK is key:

    "“There are customs experts with 30 years’ experience who are baffled by what the new regulations mean, let alone small- and medium-sized businesses who have never had to deal with the kind of paperwork that is now required. The great fear is that for many it will prove too much and they will simply choose not to export to the EU.”"

    The government didn't understand how trade works and have ended up with a deal which they don't understand. Having soent years saying fuck business and branding warnings as Project Fear it'll be a painful revelation to find out that manufacturing and logistics experts actually did know what they were talking about after all.

    This isn't just "apply the same paperwork as you would for anywhere else what's the problem?" as some parrots on here have re-squawked. This is a deal which does not work at a fundamental practical level for the supply chain of the UK.

    Final observation. However bad this gets for the government, Labour will struggle to profit. As the omnishambles deal collapses and the stupidity of both it's structure and the details is laid bare, Labour attacks will be batted aside with a simple line. "You voted for it". Bravo Keith, bravo.
    Hardly - the final vote was between leaving without a deal or leaving with a deal.

    Both versions introduced whole piles of paperwork the only thing the deal avoided was tariffs on top of the paperwork.

    Sadly politicians (and the general public) think it's tariffs that creates issues but as anyone who has exported things will know it's the paperwork that takes time and kills you.
    The Tories have a majority of 80. The deal was going to pass regardless of whether the opposition gave their consent or not. So the vote was the deal with our agreement or the deal without the agreement.

    An important lesson Labour didn't learn from the Coalition. The coalition did a lot of positive things and a whole pile of negative things. Tory bills backed by LibDem MPs are still hung around the neck of the LibDems years later. "You voted for it". This is the fate that Labour have chosen.
    Or as was pointed out by others on here in December - if Labour had voted no the result was attacks that they never wanted us to Leave.

    It really was a no win choice for Labour - but I did say continually that they should have just taken the day off and left the Tories to it.

    Sadly because of the Covid announcements that wasn't an option.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 5,983
    edited January 10

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    A rhetorical question directed at the uncertainty of the lockdown rather than at the poster, but is it in order to chat to strangers about why they are breaking the rules? And would the voter wearing a mask on the Clapham omnibus even know where to look?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 15,312
    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    You'll be blaming crime stats on victims reporting incidents next, rather than the criminals who commit the offences.

    The undoubted damage caused by Cummings' actions were the fault of Cummmings for doing it and Johnson for not sacking him. No one else.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354
    edited January 10
    Stocky said:

    A macabre thought struck me in the night. I expect others on here have had it.

    Following the riots and seeing the visceral anger of the mob, captured brilliantly by ITN's Robert Moore, I hope Joe Biden has phenomenal protection for his term in office. A right-wing assassination attempt seems to me pretty likely. Obviously I hope it doesn't happen.

    Ghoulish, macabre and distatestful it may be but a bet on Kamala Harris might be prudent.

    I agree - but there is no betting market for "next President" up yet is there? (There are markets for who wins in 2024, but that is different.)
    I just checked and I think there is. Ladbrokes have:

    'Kamala Harris to become POTUS (not acting Potus) before the end of 2024" at 3/1

    https://sports.ladbrokes.com/event/politics/specials/specials/specials/225860312/all-markets

    Given Biden's age it's maybe worth a punt anyway but the odds seem a little mean to me. I think I will put a little on it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,924
    eek said:

    eek said:

    In case this hasn't been posted, a useful catalogue of how the Brexit deal is already doing serious economic harm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/baffling-brexit-rules-threaten-export-chaos-gove-is-warned

    A story which rather tellingly isn't being told in the right wing press. Various trade bodies who represent significant swathes of the economy saying the new rules are so unworkable that the government need to reopen negotiations. This quote from the CEO of Make UK is key:

    "“There are customs experts with 30 years’ experience who are baffled by what the new regulations mean, let alone small- and medium-sized businesses who have never had to deal with the kind of paperwork that is now required. The great fear is that for many it will prove too much and they will simply choose not to export to the EU.”"

    The government didn't understand how trade works and have ended up with a deal which they don't understand. Having soent years saying fuck business and branding warnings as Project Fear it'll be a painful revelation to find out that manufacturing and logistics experts actually did know what they were talking about after all.

    This isn't just "apply the same paperwork as you would for anywhere else what's the problem?" as some parrots on here have re-squawked. This is a deal which does not work at a fundamental practical level for the supply chain of the UK.

    Final observation. However bad this gets for the government, Labour will struggle to profit. As the omnishambles deal collapses and the stupidity of both it's structure and the details is laid bare, Labour attacks will be batted aside with a simple line. "You voted for it". Bravo Keith, bravo.
    Hardly - the final vote was between leaving without a deal or leaving with a deal.

    Both versions introduced whole piles of paperwork the only thing the deal avoided was tariffs on top of the paperwork.

    Sadly politicians (and the general public) think it's tariffs that creates issues but as anyone who has exported things will know it's the paperwork that takes time and kills you.
    The Tories have a majority of 80. The deal was going to pass regardless of whether the opposition gave their consent or not. So the vote was the deal with our agreement or the deal without the agreement.

    An important lesson Labour didn't learn from the Coalition. The coalition did a lot of positive things and a whole pile of negative things. Tory bills backed by LibDem MPs are still hung around the neck of the LibDems years later. "You voted for it". This is the fate that Labour have chosen.
    Or as was pointed out by others on here in December - if Labour had voted no the result was attacks that they never wanted us to Leave.

    It really was a no win choice for Labour - but I did say continually that they should have just taken the day off and left the Tories to it.

    Sadly because of the Covid announcements that wasn't an option.
    I suggest that in a few years time 'You never wanted us to Leave' is going to be far less damaging than 'You voted for it".
  • felixfelix Posts: 11,539

    Another really good article, is this the best week of pb headers ever? I think it may be.

    Two key takeaways for me - Trump does not need to be defined by a label, he is important enough in history and unique enough for us to need to treat him simply as Trump, and that his future remains very uncertain even if his current world looks bleak (for him).

    My reading of the article is that we have become too accustomed to sloppily labelling anyone we don’t like as a fascist. And the consequence of that is that when a real one arrived we didn’t realise it. Trump should have been impeached first time round.
    And to add, we were only saved because he is an incompetent fascist.
    I agree - the polarisation means we are less tolerant of different views. I also think the explosion of media which began with the 24 hour news channels - choc full of highly politicised commentators who masquerade as journalists, makes things much worse. Then you add in Twitter/Facebook , etc and the hyperbole goes off the scale.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 15,312

    It looks increasingly possible to me that Donald Trump is heading to jail.

    Let's hope so!
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354

    From Alastair's initial paragraph I thought he was going to inveigh against dog walkers. They appear to be increasing exponentially. All too often I seem to be the only dog-free person in the park and therefore an object of deep suspicion. "Where's your little bag of poo?" their accusing eyes seem to say, "Where's your mangey tennis ball, and that stupid stick thing to launch it with? Where's your 20m leash for snaring passers-by? It's alright, he won't hurt you, he just wants to be friendly."

    I think we're right to view you with deep suspicion if that's your attitude.
    Oh I dunno. I'm a dog owner and I totally get it. There was a tongue-in-cheek article last year about viewing walkers who don't have a dog at their heel as, basically, rapists in the wings.
    Someone 'Off-topic'd' this so I'm going to bump it up just to annoy whoever it was. As Alastair began his piece on the subject of dog walking it's hardly off-topic.

    It has been mentioned that if you're out running without a dog, that's fine. But tongue-in-cheek or not, prior to the pandemic if you were single and out walking without a dog some people did eye you with suspicion. Holding a dog lead, or a poo bag, or better still an actual dog close by and suddenly you're a person fit for an eyeball to eyeball conversation.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,707

    I have no idea how these footballers are all getting covid despite the clubs are doing all their shopping for them...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/13698278/benjamin-mendy-breaches-lockdown-flying-greece-lover/

    Can't they leave the poor guy alone? If I was Benjamin I'd do a security check on my cleaner/chauffeur and fellow City left backs
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    In case this hasn't been posted, a useful catalogue of how the Brexit deal is already doing serious economic harm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/baffling-brexit-rules-threaten-export-chaos-gove-is-warned

    A story which rather tellingly isn't being told in the right wing press. Various trade bodies who represent significant swathes of the economy saying the new rules are so unworkable that the government need to reopen negotiations. This quote from the CEO of Make UK is key:

    "“There are customs experts with 30 years’ experience who are baffled by what the new regulations mean, let alone small- and medium-sized businesses who have never had to deal with the kind of paperwork that is now required. The great fear is that for many it will prove too much and they will simply choose not to export to the EU.”"

    The government didn't understand how trade works and have ended up with a deal which they don't understand. Having soent years saying fuck business and branding warnings as Project Fear it'll be a painful revelation to find out that manufacturing and logistics experts actually did know what they were talking about after all.

    This isn't just "apply the same paperwork as you would for anywhere else what's the problem?" as some parrots on here have re-squawked. This is a deal which does not work at a fundamental practical level for the supply chain of the UK.

    Final observation. However bad this gets for the government, Labour will struggle to profit. As the omnishambles deal collapses and the stupidity of both it's structure and the details is laid bare, Labour attacks will be batted aside with a simple line. "You voted for it". Bravo Keith, bravo.
    Hardly - the final vote was between leaving without a deal or leaving with a deal.

    Both versions introduced whole piles of paperwork the only thing the deal avoided was tariffs on top of the paperwork.

    Sadly politicians (and the general public) think it's tariffs that creates issues but as anyone who has exported things will know it's the paperwork that takes time and kills you.
    The Tories have a majority of 80. The deal was going to pass regardless of whether the opposition gave their consent or not. So the vote was the deal with our agreement or the deal without the agreement.

    An important lesson Labour didn't learn from the Coalition. The coalition did a lot of positive things and a whole pile of negative things. Tory bills backed by LibDem MPs are still hung around the neck of the LibDems years later. "You voted for it". This is the fate that Labour have chosen.
    Or as was pointed out by others on here in December - if Labour had voted no the result was attacks that they never wanted us to Leave.

    It really was a no win choice for Labour - but I did say continually that they should have just taken the day off and left the Tories to it.

    Sadly because of the Covid announcements that wasn't an option.
    I suggest that in a few years time 'You never wanted us to Leave' is going to be far less damaging than 'You voted for it".
    Yup. "You never wanted to leave" is the old argument. "Why have you brought all this chaos on me" is the new argument. "This isn't the Brexit I voted for, why have you ruined it?"
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 31,369
    The weekly Rawnsley: The assault on Capitol Hill was the savage consummation of a presidency founded, fuelled and feeding on division; a presidency that has stamped on democratic norms, fomented lunatic conspiracy theories and made lies the chief currency of its public discourse since the very beginning.

    Liz Cheney, the third highest-ranking Republican in the House of Representatives, offered a quote for the history books when she said: “There is no question that the president formed the mob, the president incited the mob, the president addressed the mob. He lit the flame.”

    There is a terrible cost to America’s experiment with Trumpism and the price will still be being paid after he has been removed. The cost of Trumpism is also to be counted in a poisoning of American politics. Republican voters...usually like to think they belong to the party of law and order. So it is testimony to the scale of his malignant achievement that polling of Trump voters suggests that two-thirds buy his big lie that the election was stolen and as many approved as deplored the mayhem unleashed at the citadel of their country’s democracy. America’s claim to be a “beacon of liberty” has always been contestable. Under him, the idea became risible.

    The Trump presidency has emboldened autocrats the world over to believe that liberal democracy is in decline and tomorrow belongs to them. It is not just America that has suffered a terrible price for the Trump presidency. The cost is being paid in lost liberty around the planet.


  • FossFoss Posts: 198
    Foss said:

    Welsh snail watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55605111

    So, we now discover that the Welsh Government has already got 270,000 COVID doses

    And used only 50,000 of them. They have so far used only 18 per cent of what has been delivered.

    Sir "Round the Clock Vaccinations" has forgotten to mention to his Welsh colleagues that there is a great urgency to get jabs in arms.

    If Wales has proportionality the same percentage of the vaccine as its percentage of the population then that would imply that there are nearly six million shots in the system.

    Have there been any numbers released for the other home nations?
    It would also mean that there are almost 40% of the jabs needed to hit the 15m head target already produced and ready to go.

    So we’re back to distribution. Which I guess will be the media’s theme for the week.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354

    eek said:

    eek said:

    In case this hasn't been posted, a useful catalogue of how the Brexit deal is already doing serious economic harm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/baffling-brexit-rules-threaten-export-chaos-gove-is-warned

    A story which rather tellingly isn't being told in the right wing press. Various trade bodies who represent significant swathes of the economy saying the new rules are so unworkable that the government need to reopen negotiations. This quote from the CEO of Make UK is key:

    "“There are customs experts with 30 years’ experience who are baffled by what the new regulations mean, let alone small- and medium-sized businesses who have never had to deal with the kind of paperwork that is now required. The great fear is that for many it will prove too much and they will simply choose not to export to the EU.”"

    The government didn't understand how trade works and have ended up with a deal which they don't understand. Having soent years saying fuck business and branding warnings as Project Fear it'll be a painful revelation to find out that manufacturing and logistics experts actually did know what they were talking about after all.

    This isn't just "apply the same paperwork as you would for anywhere else what's the problem?" as some parrots on here have re-squawked. This is a deal which does not work at a fundamental practical level for the supply chain of the UK.

    Final observation. However bad this gets for the government, Labour will struggle to profit. As the omnishambles deal collapses and the stupidity of both it's structure and the details is laid bare, Labour attacks will be batted aside with a simple line. "You voted for it". Bravo Keith, bravo.
    Hardly - the final vote was between leaving without a deal or leaving with a deal.

    Both versions introduced whole piles of paperwork the only thing the deal avoided was tariffs on top of the paperwork.

    Sadly politicians (and the general public) think it's tariffs that creates issues but as anyone who has exported things will know it's the paperwork that takes time and kills you.
    The Tories have a majority of 80. The deal was going to pass regardless of whether the opposition gave their consent or not. So the vote was the deal with our agreement or the deal without the agreement.

    An important lesson Labour didn't learn from the Coalition. The coalition did a lot of positive things and a whole pile of negative things. Tory bills backed by LibDem MPs are still hung around the neck of the LibDems years later. "You voted for it". This is the fate that Labour have chosen.
    Or as was pointed out by others on here in December - if Labour had voted no the result was attacks that they never wanted us to Leave.

    It really was a no win choice for Labour - but I did say continually that they should have just taken the day off and left the Tories to it.

    Sadly because of the Covid announcements that wasn't an option.
    I suggest that in a few years time 'You never wanted us to Leave' is going to be far less damaging than 'You voted for it".
    It would be even better if in a few years no one is ever talking about Brexit again.

    Yours, A former Remainer.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354

    From Alastair's initial paragraph I thought he was going to inveigh against dog walkers. They appear to be increasing exponentially. All too often I seem to be the only dog-free person in the park and therefore an object of deep suspicion. "Where's your little bag of poo?" their accusing eyes seem to say, "Where's your mangey tennis ball, and that stupid stick thing to launch it with? Where's your 20m leash for snaring passers-by? It's alright, he won't hurt you, he just wants to be friendly."

    I think we're right to view you with deep suspicion if that's your attitude.
    Oh I dunno. I'm a dog owner and I totally get it. There was a tongue-in-cheek article last year about viewing walkers who don't have a dog at their heel as, basically, rapists in the wings.
    I am a dog owner. I see individuals walking and never think of them as rapists in the wings. If you think that I suggest the problem isnt with the non dog owner.

    I am much more uncomfortable with people not wearing masks.
    I think the tongue-in-cheek bit is probably quite important here ...

  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,354

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    A rhetorical question directed at the uncertainty of the lockdown rather than at the poster, but is it in order to chat to strangers about why they are breaking the rules? And would the voter wearing a mask on the Clapham omnibus even know where to look?
    Chatting on the phone
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,796
    Talking of dogs - this has to be the best clip of antiques roadshow.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,707

    eek said:

    eek said:

    In case this hasn't been posted, a useful catalogue of how the Brexit deal is already doing serious economic harm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/baffling-brexit-rules-threaten-export-chaos-gove-is-warned

    A story which rather tellingly isn't being told in the right wing press. Various trade bodies who represent significant swathes of the economy saying the new rules are so unworkable that the government need to reopen negotiations. This quote from the CEO of Make UK is key:

    "“There are customs experts with 30 years’ experience who are baffled by what the new regulations mean, let alone small- and medium-sized businesses who have never had to deal with the kind of paperwork that is now required. The great fear is that for many it will prove too much and they will simply choose not to export to the EU.”"

    The government didn't understand how trade works and have ended up with a deal which they don't understand. Having soent years saying fuck business and branding warnings as Project Fear it'll be a painful revelation to find out that manufacturing and logistics experts actually did know what they were talking about after all.

    This isn't just "apply the same paperwork as you would for anywhere else what's the problem?" as some parrots on here have re-squawked. This is a deal which does not work at a fundamental practical level for the supply chain of the UK.

    Final observation. However bad this gets for the government, Labour will struggle to profit. As the omnishambles deal collapses and the stupidity of both it's structure and the details is laid bare, Labour attacks will be batted aside with a simple line. "You voted for it". Bravo Keith, bravo.
    Hardly - the final vote was between leaving without a deal or leaving with a deal.

    Both versions introduced whole piles of paperwork the only thing the deal avoided was tariffs on top of the paperwork.

    Sadly politicians (and the general public) think it's tariffs that creates issues but as anyone who has exported things will know it's the paperwork that takes time and kills you.
    The Tories have a majority of 80. The deal was going to pass regardless of whether the opposition gave their consent or not. So the vote was the deal with our agreement or the deal without the agreement.

    An important lesson Labour didn't learn from the Coalition. The coalition did a lot of positive things and a whole pile of negative things. Tory bills backed by LibDem MPs are still hung around the neck of the LibDems years later. "You voted for it". This is the fate that Labour have chosen.
    Or as was pointed out by others on here in December - if Labour had voted no the result was attacks that they never wanted us to Leave.

    It really was a no win choice for Labour - but I did say continually that they should have just taken the day off and left the Tories to it.

    Sadly because of the Covid announcements that wasn't an option.
    I suggest that in a few years time 'You never wanted us to Leave' is going to be far less damaging than 'You voted for it".
    Yup. "You never wanted to leave" is the old argument. "Why have you brought all this chaos on me" is the new argument. "This isn't the Brexit I voted for, why have you ruined it?"
    The only way out for Labour is to make the convincing argument that a no deal in the short term would have been worse and at least the deal gives them a lifeline to re-apply and that's what they intend to do if they win the next election.

    (Allowing for absence making the heart grow fonder that should see them comfortably over the line)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,924

    eek said:

    eek said:

    In case this hasn't been posted, a useful catalogue of how the Brexit deal is already doing serious economic harm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/baffling-brexit-rules-threaten-export-chaos-gove-is-warned

    A story which rather tellingly isn't being told in the right wing press. Various trade bodies who represent significant swathes of the economy saying the new rules are so unworkable that the government need to reopen negotiations. This quote from the CEO of Make UK is key:

    "“There are customs experts with 30 years’ experience who are baffled by what the new regulations mean, let alone small- and medium-sized businesses who have never had to deal with the kind of paperwork that is now required. The great fear is that for many it will prove too much and they will simply choose not to export to the EU.”"

    The government didn't understand how trade works and have ended up with a deal which they don't understand. Having soent years saying fuck business and branding warnings as Project Fear it'll be a painful revelation to find out that manufacturing and logistics experts actually did know what they were talking about after all.

    This isn't just "apply the same paperwork as you would for anywhere else what's the problem?" as some parrots on here have re-squawked. This is a deal which does not work at a fundamental practical level for the supply chain of the UK.

    Final observation. However bad this gets for the government, Labour will struggle to profit. As the omnishambles deal collapses and the stupidity of both it's structure and the details is laid bare, Labour attacks will be batted aside with a simple line. "You voted for it". Bravo Keith, bravo.
    Hardly - the final vote was between leaving without a deal or leaving with a deal.

    Both versions introduced whole piles of paperwork the only thing the deal avoided was tariffs on top of the paperwork.

    Sadly politicians (and the general public) think it's tariffs that creates issues but as anyone who has exported things will know it's the paperwork that takes time and kills you.
    The Tories have a majority of 80. The deal was going to pass regardless of whether the opposition gave their consent or not. So the vote was the deal with our agreement or the deal without the agreement.

    An important lesson Labour didn't learn from the Coalition. The coalition did a lot of positive things and a whole pile of negative things. Tory bills backed by LibDem MPs are still hung around the neck of the LibDems years later. "You voted for it". This is the fate that Labour have chosen.
    Or as was pointed out by others on here in December - if Labour had voted no the result was attacks that they never wanted us to Leave.

    It really was a no win choice for Labour - but I did say continually that they should have just taken the day off and left the Tories to it.

    Sadly because of the Covid announcements that wasn't an option.
    I suggest that in a few years time 'You never wanted us to Leave' is going to be far less damaging than 'You voted for it".
    It would be even better if in a few years no one is ever talking about Brexit again.

    Yours, A former Remainer.
    Does 'A former Remainer' = 'now a Rejoiner'?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 10
    felix said:

    Another really good article, is this the best week of pb headers ever? I think it may be.

    Two key takeaways for me - Trump does not need to be defined by a label, he is important enough in history and unique enough for us to need to treat him simply as Trump, and that his future remains very uncertain even if his current world looks bleak (for him).

    My reading of the article is that we have become too accustomed to sloppily labelling anyone we don’t like as a fascist. And the consequence of that is that when a real one arrived we didn’t realise it. Trump should have been impeached first time round.
    And to add, we were only saved because he is an incompetent fascist.
    I agree - the polarisation means we are less tolerant of different views. I also think the explosion of media which began with the 24 hour news channels - choc full of highly politicised commentators who masquerade as journalists, makes things much worse. Then you add in Twitter/Facebook , etc and the hyperbole goes off the scale.
    We are now stepping up from even that with one side of the media happy to call for the other side to be deplatformed to reduce their voice.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,903

    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    You'll be blaming crime stats on victims reporting incidents next, rather than the criminals who commit the offences.

    The undoubted damage caused by Cummings' actions were the fault of Cummmings for doing it and Johnson for not sacking him. No one else.
    Except that Durham police, after several investigations, concluded he did nothing wrong.

    There was no reason for the media to spend a week talking about a civil servant holding no elected office, who never made public statements, except for their Brexit-related vendetta against him.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 4,665
    edited January 10

    Stocky said:

    A macabre thought struck me in the night. I expect others on here have had it.

    Following the riots and seeing the visceral anger of the mob, captured brilliantly by ITN's Robert Moore, I hope Joe Biden has phenomenal protection for his term in office. A right-wing assassination attempt seems to me pretty likely. Obviously I hope it doesn't happen.

    Ghoulish, macabre and distatestful it may be but a bet on Kamala Harris might be prudent.

    I agree - but there is no betting market for "next President" up yet is there? (There are markets for who wins in 2024, but that is different.)
    I just checked and I think there is. Ladbrokes have:

    'Kamala Harris to become POTUS (not acting Potus) before the end of 2024" at 3/1

    https://sports.ladbrokes.com/event/politics/specials/specials/specials/225860312/all-markets

    Given Biden's age it's maybe worth a punt anyway but the odds seem a little mean to me. I think I will put a little on it.
    That`s just a Ladbrokes` special on Harris. Under that book, "Acting Potus" doesn`t count. Can I confirm - if Biden handed over to Harris prior to 2024 would Harris be designated acting or full president?

    To pay out under the terms of that book would she have to become POTUS via an election?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 10
    Foss said:

    Foss said:

    Welsh snail watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55605111

    So, we now discover that the Welsh Government has already got 270,000 COVID doses

    And used only 50,000 of them. They have so far used only 18 per cent of what has been delivered.

    Sir "Round the Clock Vaccinations" has forgotten to mention to his Welsh colleagues that there is a great urgency to get jabs in arms.

    If Wales has proportionality the same percentage of the vaccine as its percentage of the population then that would imply that there are nearly six million shots in the system.

    Have there been any numbers released for the other home nations?
    It would also mean that there are almost 40% of the jabs needed to hit the 15m head target already produced and ready to go.

    So we’re back to distribution. Which I guess will be the media’s theme for the week.
    Hancock just said 200k / day are now being vaccinated and a 1/3 of over 80s have been given at least first jab.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 5,155
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    You'll be blaming crime stats on victims reporting incidents next, rather than the criminals who commit the offences.

    The undoubted damage caused by Cummings' actions were the fault of Cummmings for doing it and Johnson for not sacking him. No one else.
    Except that Durham police, after several investigations, concluded he did nothing wrong.

    There was no reason for the media to spend a week talking about a civil servant holding no elected office, who never made public statements, except for their Brexit-related vendetta against him.
    You cannot have it both ways. Why would a civil servant holding no elected office, who never made public statements, get to hold a press conference in the Downing Street garden?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 31,111

    IanB2 said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Rose, I think that's bollocks, as an excuse. I agree it's entirely possible some people thought that way, but if they did they're bloody idiots.

    "Well, that guy got away with it so I will too" is a moronic approach when dealing with an infectious disease.

    That's not to say the PM handled it anything like well. As with so many things, he did not. But his incompetence is no excuse for individuals to abandon the concept of responsibility (for self-preservation, no less!) in favour of an infantile strop.

    Not so, Mr D. The point about lockdowns is that they impose upon us what are essentially irrational restrictions, in the name of the common good. The detail of the rules and guidance are not sensible lines to defend in the context of fighting the virus - the length of your exercise, how many times a day you go out, whether you buy this or that, precisely how many people you meet - they are but simply arbitrary compromises between locking everyone indoors permanently, and having no restrictions at all.

    Willingness to go along with such depends heavily on the feeling that we are all in the same boat. The emotions stirred up by Cummings’s behaviour - not just the breach but the patent pack of lies he told to explain it and the lack of any punishment or sanction - were surely akin to those stirred up under wartime rationing on finding that some local bigwig is getting extra eggs on the black market, and nothing is being done about it.

    Most of us prefer to make our own judgements (as some PB’ers did from the outset) and that is where most people are now.
    Quite, Mr 82. Plenty of people in high, and not so high, places have been 'caught' breaking lockdown, have 'fessed up and the matter has been, if not forgotten, reduced to background noise. However, someone n a high place not only 'offended' but lied about it, and then, when the lies were exposed, was defended by his boss, one of the highest in the land, with what might well be described as 'an inverted pyramid of piffle'. As someone once said.
    The fact that, nearly nine months we still worry about it, and worse, make jokes about it means that it was pushed high into public awareness. Which it wouldn't have been if all concerned had not been at pains to make silly and unbelievable excuses.

    Rather like Trump effectively saying the other day 'That's enough, be good now and go home!' when lives were clearly at risk.

    And Good Morning everyone.
    Good morning OKC, hope all went well with your hospital visit yesterday. The amount of people ignoring lockdown and saying hospitals are empty is absolutely crazy. The UK really has gone to the dogs.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,043
    edited January 10
    Foss said:

    Foss said:

    Welsh snail watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55605111

    So, we now discover that the Welsh Government has already got 270,000 COVID doses

    And used only 50,000 of them. They have so far used only 18 per cent of what has been delivered.

    Sir "Round the Clock Vaccinations" has forgotten to mention to his Welsh colleagues that there is a great urgency to get jabs in arms.

    If Wales has proportionality the same percentage of the vaccine as its percentage of the population then that would imply that there are nearly six million shots in the system.

    Have there been any numbers released for the other home nations?
    It would also mean that there are almost 40% of the jabs needed to hit the 15m head target already produced and ready to go.

    So we’re back to distribution. Which I guess will be the media’s theme for the week.
    Yes. I think that is a correct reading of the numbers.

    Care home residents, their carers and the over-80s make up just under 6 million people

    I think this means everyone over 80 should be jabbed very shortly, in the next few days.

    We should be able to monitor this on pb.com, where there still seem to be posters with over 80 year old relatives who are unjabbed.* That should change quickly now.

    The vaccines are already there.

    (Edit, And even 80 year old + posters in the case of BigG)
  • I am not going to unleash myself into the dog debate as I have a vested interest. Save only to say, I think a number of you are barking up the wrong tree.

    I am not going to unleash myself into the dog debate as I have a vested interest. Save only to say, I think a number of you are barking up the wrong tree.

    Time for a paws.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,903
    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    You'll be blaming crime stats on victims reporting incidents next, rather than the criminals who commit the offences.

    The undoubted damage caused by Cummings' actions were the fault of Cummmings for doing it and Johnson for not sacking him. No one else.
    Except that Durham police, after several investigations, concluded he did nothing wrong.

    There was no reason for the media to spend a week talking about a civil servant holding no elected office, who never made public statements, except for their Brexit-related vendetta against him.
    You cannot have it both ways. Why would a civil servant holding no elected office, who never made public statements, get to hold a press conference in the Downing Street garden?
    That was after his name had been on the front pages for a week.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302

    Foss said:

    Foss said:

    Welsh snail watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55605111

    So, we now discover that the Welsh Government has already got 270,000 COVID doses

    And used only 50,000 of them. They have so far used only 18 per cent of what has been delivered.

    Sir "Round the Clock Vaccinations" has forgotten to mention to his Welsh colleagues that there is a great urgency to get jabs in arms.

    If Wales has proportionality the same percentage of the vaccine as its percentage of the population then that would imply that there are nearly six million shots in the system.

    Have there been any numbers released for the other home nations?
    It would also mean that there are almost 40% of the jabs needed to hit the 15m head target already produced and ready to go.

    So we’re back to distribution. Which I guess will be the media’s theme for the week.
    Hancock just said 200k / day are now being vaccinated and a 1/3 of over 80s have been given at least first jab.
    We should expect a large leap in the totals come tomorrow when the daily reporting starts.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 2,834
    edited January 10
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    A macabre thought struck me in the night. I expect others on here have had it.

    Following the riots and seeing the visceral anger of the mob, captured brilliantly by ITN's Robert Moore, I hope Joe Biden has phenomenal protection for his term in office. A right-wing assassination attempt seems to me pretty likely. Obviously I hope it doesn't happen.

    Ghoulish, macabre and distatestful it may be but a bet on Kamala Harris might be prudent.

    I agree - but there is no betting market for "next President" up yet is there? (There are markets for who wins in 2024, but that is different.)
    I just checked and I think there is. Ladbrokes have:

    'Kamala Harris to become POTUS (not acting Potus) before the end of 2024" at 3/1

    https://sports.ladbrokes.com/event/politics/specials/specials/specials/225860312/all-markets

    Given Biden's age it's maybe worth a punt anyway but the odds seem a little mean to me. I think I will put a little on it.
    That`s just a Ladbrokes` special on Harris. Under that book, "Acting Potus" doesn`t count. Can I confirm - if Biden handed over to Harris prior to 2024 would Harris be designated acting or full president?

    To pay out under the terms of that book would she have to become POTUS via an election?
    If he died or resigned, she'd be permanent. If he had a stroke or something and hoped to possibly return, she'd be acting. Indeed, that's under 25th Amendment, which has actually been used a few times for medical procedures - the controversial 4th section of the 25th deals with that where the President himself doesn't consent, but the 3rd is basically just him saying he's unwell or under planned general anaesthetic and unable to act, maybe just for a few hours.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 15,312
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    You'll be blaming crime stats on victims reporting incidents next, rather than the criminals who commit the offences.

    The undoubted damage caused by Cummings' actions were the fault of Cummmings for doing it and Johnson for not sacking him. No one else.
    Except that Durham police, after several investigations, concluded he did nothing wrong.

    There was no reason for the media to spend a week talking about a civil servant holding no elected office, who never made public statements, except for their Brexit-related vendetta against him.
    Actually they "concluded that there might have been a minor breach of the Regulations that would have warranted police intervention" but decided not to do so retrospectively.

    But that is to miss the point. The impression created was "one rule for them, another rule for the rest of us", which inevitably undermined public commitment to follow the rules.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,707

    eek said:

    eek said:

    In case this hasn't been posted, a useful catalogue of how the Brexit deal is already doing serious economic harm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/baffling-brexit-rules-threaten-export-chaos-gove-is-warned

    A story which rather tellingly isn't being told in the right wing press. Various trade bodies who represent significant swathes of the economy saying the new rules are so unworkable that the government need to reopen negotiations. This quote from the CEO of Make UK is key:

    "“There are customs experts with 30 years’ experience who are baffled by what the new regulations mean, let alone small- and medium-sized businesses who have never had to deal with the kind of paperwork that is now required. The great fear is that for many it will prove too much and they will simply choose not to export to the EU.”"

    The government didn't understand how trade works and have ended up with a deal which they don't understand. Having soent years saying fuck business and branding warnings as Project Fear it'll be a painful revelation to find out that manufacturing and logistics experts actually did know what they were talking about after all.

    This isn't just "apply the same paperwork as you would for anywhere else what's the problem?" as some parrots on here have re-squawked. This is a deal which does not work at a fundamental practical level for the supply chain of the UK.

    Final observation. However bad this gets for the government, Labour will struggle to profit. As the omnishambles deal collapses and the stupidity of both it's structure and the details is laid bare, Labour attacks will be batted aside with a simple line. "You voted for it". Bravo Keith, bravo.
    Hardly - the final vote was between leaving without a deal or leaving with a deal.

    Both versions introduced whole piles of paperwork the only thing the deal avoided was tariffs on top of the paperwork.

    Sadly politicians (and the general public) think it's tariffs that creates issues but as anyone who has exported things will know it's the paperwork that takes time and kills you.
    The Tories have a majority of 80. The deal was going to pass regardless of whether the opposition gave their consent or not. So the vote was the deal with our agreement or the deal without the agreement.

    An important lesson Labour didn't learn from the Coalition. The coalition did a lot of positive things and a whole pile of negative things. Tory bills backed by LibDem MPs are still hung around the neck of the LibDems years later. "You voted for it". This is the fate that Labour have chosen.
    Or as was pointed out by others on here in December - if Labour had voted no the result was attacks that they never wanted us to Leave.

    It really was a no win choice for Labour - but I did say continually that they should have just taken the day off and left the Tories to it.

    Sadly because of the Covid announcements that wasn't an option.
    I suggest that in a few years time 'You never wanted us to Leave' is going to be far less damaging than 'You voted for it".
    It would be even better if in a few years no one is ever talking about Brexit again.

    Yours, A former Remainer.
    Does 'A former Remainer' = 'now a Rejoiner'?
    They need to get onto that pretty quickly. 'Rejoiner' sounds too much like a branch of plumbing. Something with a little more je ne sais quoi is required.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    Here is quote from Hancock...

    He tells Sophy Ridge: "Yes we're on course. The rate limiting factor at the moment is supply but that's increasing.

    "I'm very glad to say that at the moment we're running at over 200,000 people being vaccinated every day.

    "We've now vaccinated around one third of the over-80s in this country so we're making significant progress but there's still further expansion to go.

    "This week we're opening mass vaccination centres. Big sites, for instance at Epsom racecourse.

    "There's seven going live this week with more to come next week where we will get through very large numbers of people."
  • FossFoss Posts: 198
    edited January 10

    Foss said:

    Foss said:

    Welsh snail watch.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55605111

    So, we now discover that the Welsh Government has already got 270,000 COVID doses

    And used only 50,000 of them. They have so far used only 18 per cent of what has been delivered.

    Sir "Round the Clock Vaccinations" has forgotten to mention to his Welsh colleagues that there is a great urgency to get jabs in arms.

    If Wales has proportionality the same percentage of the vaccine as its percentage of the population then that would imply that there are nearly six million shots in the system.

    Have there been any numbers released for the other home nations?
    It would also mean that there are almost 40% of the jabs needed to hit the 15m head target already produced and ready to go.

    So we’re back to distribution. Which I guess will be the media’s theme for the week.
    Yes. I think that is a correct reading of the numbers.

    Care home residents, their carers and the over-80s make up just under 6 million people

    I think this means everyone over 80 should be jabbed very shortly, in the next few days.

    We should be able to monitor this on pb.com, where there still seem to be posters with over 80 year old relatives who are unjabbed. That should change quickly now.

    The vaccines are already there.
    The non-centralised nature of NHS patient monitoring may bite us on the arse here.

    Plus the post is till a mess; we’re still receiving Christmas cards here so there are likely to be letters still stuck in the postal network.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 38,775
    A thoughtful piece this sunday morning. Thanks @AlastairMeeks
  • Roger said:

    The only way out for Labour is to make the convincing argument that a no deal in the short term would have been worse and at least the deal gives them a lifeline to re-apply and that's what they intend to do if they win the next election.

    (Allowing for absence making the heart grow fonder that should see them comfortably over the line)

    Starmer had a good go at trying to push the "it was vote for the deal or accept no deal" line. It wasn't convincing because it wasn't just not true but he knew it was untrue.

    "We had to vote for this otherwise the government with its huge majority wouldn't have got its deal through" isn't convincing.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 5,155
    Sandpit said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I've been chatting to people, esp youngsters ref breaking lockdown rules. Loads of people are not following them. As mentioned on here at the time, it was the Dominic Cummings moment which shattered the bond between people and politicians. Up until then the country was pulling together, united. A plethora of u-turns and bodges on top of the failure to censure Cummings disintegrated our common purpose.

    Which, if true, shows how utterly irresponsible the British media have been throughout this crisis. They preferred to risk widespread public distrust of government, to satisfy their personal witch-hunt of someone barely known outside the Westminster Village.
    You'll be blaming crime stats on victims reporting incidents next, rather than the criminals who commit the offences.

    The undoubted damage caused by Cummings' actions were the fault of Cummmings for doing it and Johnson for not sacking him. No one else.
    Except that Durham police, after several investigations, concluded he did nothing wrong.

    There was no reason for the media to spend a week talking about a civil servant holding no elected office, who never made public statements, except for their Brexit-related vendetta against him.
    You cannot have it both ways. Why would a civil servant holding no elected office, who never made public statements, get to hold a press conference in the Downing Street garden?
    That was after his name had been on the front pages for a week.
    So what? A one-liner apology and a resignation were always on the cards.You may think it it entirely legitimate that a civil servant holding no elected office should be so central to government that that option had to be discarded, but in establishing that the press established an important fact about how the country is presently governed. The less important he is, the more interesting and relevant the fact is that he is Downing Street press conference about his personal affairs material. Paradox, innit.
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