I thought @Sean_F put it very well when he said many Americans know he's a son of a bitch but think he's their son of a bitch.
Sadly I think that is the great error they made. He never was 'their Son of Bitch'. To be rather crude about it, they were all his bitches and he would use them without regard until they were no longer of use to him.
But, whatever one thinks of Trump, he has largely implemented (or at least sincerely tried to implement) the manifesto he was elected on in 2016. That will count for a lot.
I think both @rcs1000 and myself thought he was full of hot-air in 2016, and would end-up governing as a relatively standard Republican with a lot of populist windy rhetoric on top.
I suppose that is another reason why he has retained such a large swathe of his support. Again though I fear it (as in his ability to improve the lot of the Middle Classes) is illusory.
Yes, that and (even though this will get sniffed at by many on here) it's worth remembering that the politics of much of the Democratic party are as extreme by many people too, which scares them.
You don't get 75 million votes out of thin air for a man like Trump without good reason. And you can't easily dismiss them all as mad, bad and sad, although remarkably people still do.
I'm not sure why you can't. There's plenty of evidence of a large percentage of a population voting for something many people would see as abhorrent. Rwanda, Germany '33-'39 Capital punishment supporters in the UK etc. As you suggest people vote in their own interest which can sometimes be no more than the trains running on time
Good article Richard. My discussions with Americans I know makes me think there are a lot of people on the centre right that held their nose and voted for Trump, not necessarily out of enthusiasm, but out of an even deeper mistrust of the Democrats. Not that dissimilar to those that voted for the Johnson led Tories. People often vote for the party that keeps out what they don't want rather than enthusiastically endorsing the manifesto of the alternative that they ostensibly vote for.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
i am not terribly interested in US politics and think the UK would be far better obsessing about its own or at least Europe but isn't Biden a bit doddery mentally ? Or has this been cured?
I thought he'd get obliterated in the debates by young articulate folk like Cory Booker and Peter Buttigieg and Beto O'Rourke. But he managed to survive that.
And he's been in the public eye a fair amount since the election, and I've not seen much dodderyness so far.
That tweet or whatever we call something on Parler just screams Phishing approach to get loads of people to incriminate themselves. But the morons will still jump right in.
Can I just point out the wonderful name of the governor? Perhaps he should have become a judge...
We've had here a Lord Justice Laws (John Laws) and a Lord Chief Justice Judge (Igor Judge).
Interestingly I see the latter is now Convenor of the Crossbench Peers, and his predecessor as Convenor was a former Member of the Supreme Court. Perhaps becoming a trend.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
i find this obsession wth US politics so hard to understand frankly - to the point of ranting against voters who are not even this side of the Atlantic. Trump may have messed up America but has not messed up the world too much -unlike some of his predecessors - Can we just concentrate on this side of the pond and stop giving the US an even bigger importance that even it thinks it has? Especially when getting down to invading buildings.Isn't this something for them to sort out ?
Never heard of global overheating, or just don't care whether future generations have a reasonably habitable planet?
well if that's the reason you need to start obsessing about China as well , plus maybe a polite inquiry if they have managed to put in place measures to stop covid like pandemics from starting again
I thought @Sean_F put it very well when he said many Americans know he's a son of a bitch but think he's their son of a bitch.
Sadly I think that is the great error they made. He never was 'their Son of Bitch'. To be rather crude about it, they were all his bitches and he would use them without regard until they were no longer of use to him.
But, whatever one thinks of Trump, he has largely implemented (or at least sincerely tried to implement) the manifesto he was elected on in 2016. That will count for a lot.
I think both @rcs1000 and myself thought he was full of hot-air in 2016, and would end-up governing as a relatively standard Republican with a lot of populist windy rhetoric on top.
He’s a loser though.
Lost the House.
Lost the Presidency.
Lost the Senate.
Took the L on a grand scale.
Sad!
What do you think of the people who voted for him?
I’m sure many tens of millions (the majority) are decent folk. A few are malicious racists. Some others are certifiable.
Doesn’t alter the fact that Trump is a has-been loser. He is the deranged president that incited violence on his own democracy.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
But the whole point is that by lumping all 74 million of them in with a few extremist morons and then saying their concerns don't matter you are just ensuring that this continues and that, as I said in the header, eventually you get a candidate who is not a caricature incompetent, narcissistic idiot but someone far more dangerous.
I am reminded of the Ron Pearlman character in the film 'The Last Supper'. They are out there and they will take advantage of the desperation of millions of Americans if the mainstream politicians continue to ignore them.
I thought @Sean_F put it very well when he said many Americans know he's a son of a bitch but think he's their son of a bitch.
Sadly I think that is the great error they made. He never was 'their Son of Bitch'. To be rather crude about it, they were all his bitches and he would use them without regard until they were no longer of use to him.
But, whatever one thinks of Trump, he has largely implemented (or at least sincerely tried to implement) the manifesto he was elected on in 2016. That will count for a lot.
I think both @rcs1000 and myself thought he was full of hot-air in 2016, and would end-up governing as a relatively standard Republican with a lot of populist windy rhetoric on top.
He’s a loser though.
Lost the House.
Lost the Presidency.
Lost the Senate.
Took the L on a grand scale.
Sad!
What do you think of the people who voted for him?
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
Indeed, Mr Tyndall. Many of those who voted for Trump, and I know a few, knew who the man was and, regardless, voted for him not because they are stupid or evil but because they felt either that the other option was worse, or (and most pertinently to your post) because they felt no other politician would even speak the name of their problems, let alone address them. Indeed, they felt other politicians vilified them for having the temerity to suggest they might have a problem in the first place.
If your entire body politic not only deny the genuine problems of a large chunk of the population but go on to vilify them for trying to raise them, at some point the volcano blows.
We need to separate out the genuine grievances of Trump's supporters from the imagined or cynically exploited ones, and address them, if worse is not to follow, as both Mr Tyndall and Mr Herdson have both highlighted. Denigrating 74+m voters, per Ms Batty, is precisely the wrong thing to do.
In 2016, if you were a Martian that had landed straight in the middle of the US Presidential election, you would have thought that the issue of transgender bathroom was one of the most important issues out there at a time when small town America was seeing an explosion of opioid deaths and suicides, and the replacement of well paid, secure jobs with lowly paid, uncertain work.
Why would anyone in that situation had voted for Hillary Clinton and the Democrats? They offered nothing. Trump offered the possibility of something, even if many who voted for him, didn't believe him. In fact, he probably delivered more than they expected on that front.
And the future is going to be far worse if nobody gets a handle on it now. One of the biggest impacts of Covid has been to massively ramp up inequality in the States. If you are in a well-paid professional job, with a decent share portfolio, this crisis has actually been a plus - better work-life balance, less commuting and an increased portfolio. But if you are at the bottom end of the scale, it has been an unmitigated disaster.
It innocently asked people to send details of their names, addresses, and crimes that they wanted to be pardoned for...
Personally i wish to be pardoned for buying a Neighbours video cassette in 1993 Once being a fan of the BBC (before they went through their "hello Magazine Makeover" Cheating at golf Drinking a coffee (and get this ) AND having a bacon sandwich AND sitting in a park and in no way exercising today whilst doing it
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Just thinking about bans on social media. I know there have been some tech developed for distributed social networks, but i am surprised somebody hasn't developed tech ontop of existing networks in a model of whatsapps, where your "contact list" gets automatically updated with people update their current social media accounts.
Thus if somebody gets banned and creates a new one or moves to a different system your feeds automatically gets updated.
I thought @Sean_F put it very well when he said many Americans know he's a son of a bitch but think he's their son of a bitch.
Sadly I think that is the great error they made. He never was 'their Son of Bitch'. To be rather crude about it, they were all his bitches and he would use them without regard until they were no longer of use to him.
But, whatever one thinks of Trump, he has largely implemented (or at least sincerely tried to implement) the manifesto he was elected on in 2016. That will count for a lot.
I think both @rcs1000 and myself thought he was full of hot-air in 2016, and would end-up governing as a relatively standard Republican with a lot of populist windy rhetoric on top.
He’s a loser though.
Lost the House.
Lost the Presidency.
Lost the Senate.
Took the L on a grand scale.
Sad!
What do you think of the people who voted for him?
I thought @Sean_F put it very well when he said many Americans know he's a son of a bitch but think he's their son of a bitch.
Sadly I think that is the great error they made. He never was 'their Son of Bitch'. To be rather crude about it, they were all his bitches and he would use them without regard until they were no longer of use to him.
But, whatever one thinks of Trump, he has largely implemented (or at least sincerely tried to implement) the manifesto he was elected on in 2016. That will count for a lot.
I think both @rcs1000 and myself thought he was full of hot-air in 2016, and would end-up governing as a relatively standard Republican with a lot of populist windy rhetoric on top.
I suppose that is another reason why he has retained such a large swathe of his support. Again though I fear it (as in his ability to improve the lot of the Middle Classes) is illusory.
Yes, that and (even though this will get sniffed at by many on here) it's worth remembering that the politics of much of the Democratic party are as extreme by many people too, which scares them.
You don't get 75 million votes out of thin air for a man like Trump without good reason. And you can't easily dismiss them all as mad, bad and sad, although remarkably people still do.
I'm not sure why you can't. There's plenty of evidence of a large percentage of a population voting for something many people would see as abhorrent. Rwanda, Germany '33-'39 Capital punishment supporters in the UK etc. As you suggest people vote in their own interest which can sometimes be no more than the trains running on time
Interesting list
- Rwanda - hacking people to death with machetes - Germany '33-'39 - supporting the overthrow of democracy by a violent dictator - Capital punishment supporters in the UK - asking to vote for a method of punishment to be applied by the courts
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Basket of deplorables all over again.
One key difference; I'm not asking people to vote for me
i get the punting side and even had a bet myself on it- but we are past punting on it now . Obviously if this is what people want on a site then who I am to say that its too much focus but just find it incredulous how people can get worked up by events in a country thousands of miles away when its not directly affecting anything in Britain
Speak for yourself, I've got a t cash on Trump's exit date.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Basket of deplorables all over again.
One key difference; I'm not asking people to vote for me
But the attitude is the same. And as others have pointed out, it isn't helpful.
"Patriot" is Trumpsky-Putinist code for "Fascist".
Maybe a shock to some PBers, but strangely the Republican Party is NOT rallying around their Fearless Leader and his fellow "Patriots" in the wake of the Trumpsky Putsch.
"Hawley’s political patron, former Sen. John Danforth (R-Mo.), turned on him, calling his support the 'biggest mistake I’ve ever made.' His top donor, David Humphreys, said he should be censured."
"Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-Texas), a Navy SEAL who was wounded in Afghanistan, told the Houston Chronicle: 'All of the members who called for everyone to come and fight and make their last stand, all of those members were scattered like cowards while the Capitol Police had to do the fighting.'"
I thought @Sean_F put it very well when he said many Americans know he's a son of a bitch but think he's their son of a bitch.
Sadly I think that is the great error they made. He never was 'their Son of Bitch'. To be rather crude about it, they were all his bitches and he would use them without regard until they were no longer of use to him.
But, whatever one thinks of Trump, he has largely implemented (or at least sincerely tried to implement) the manifesto he was elected on in 2016. That will count for a lot.
I think both @rcs1000 and myself thought he was full of hot-air in 2016, and would end-up governing as a relatively standard Republican with a lot of populist windy rhetoric on top.
He’s a loser though.
Lost the House.
Lost the Presidency.
Lost the Senate.
Took the L on a grand scale.
Sad!
What do you think of the people who voted for him?
I thought @Sean_F put it very well when he said many Americans know he's a son of a bitch but think he's their son of a bitch.
Sadly I think that is the great error they made. He never was 'their Son of Bitch'. To be rather crude about it, they were all his bitches and he would use them without regard until they were no longer of use to him.
But, whatever one thinks of Trump, he has largely implemented (or at least sincerely tried to implement) the manifesto he was elected on in 2016. That will count for a lot.
I think both @rcs1000 and myself thought he was full of hot-air in 2016, and would end-up governing as a relatively standard Republican with a lot of populist windy rhetoric on top.
He’s a loser though.
Lost the House.
Lost the Presidency.
Lost the Senate.
Took the L on a grand scale.
Sad!
What do you think of the people who voted for him?
I’m sure many tens of millions (the majority) are decent folk. A few are malicious racists. Some others are certifiable.
Doesn’t alter the fact that Trump is a has-been loser. He is the deranged president that incited violence on his own democracy.
Do you still support him?
No, I wouldn't vote for him now. I still think he would have been better for the US than Biden in November but his behaviour since the election has been more and more erratic (I know) and he should have shut up about the fraud - it's unproven and he lost in the courts. This week, his comments on the SC judges were disgraceful and you can't whip up a crowd like that in front of the Capitol (in all honesty, I don't think he deliberately incited them to riot, he was just an idiot as not to realise what would happen). Plus, you can't be selective in how you treat rioters just because they belong to your side, not your opponents.
I do think though, like others have said here, that the concerns of many of his supporters have to be addressed and that they won't be, which will lead to the same cycle in 2024, only with a much more effective proponent.
Here is a letter I'm considering sending to US Chief Justice John Roberts:
Dear Mr. Chief Justice Roberts,
You must be VERY proud of your protege and former clerk, Josh Hawley who is currently US Senator from Missouri. Who of course attained his position, as well as his previous post as Attorney General of the State of Missouri, in part because of YOUR mentoring and credentialing.
Not every law clerk goes on to be state AG and US Senator. OR has "blood on his hands" for aiding and abetting an attack on the US Capitol and Congress aimed at overthrowing the Constitution.
Yes, you must be VERY proud indeed!
Perhaps you MAY which to reflect on your own JUDGEMENT - or rather lack thereof - in nursing such a viper to YOUR bosom. And linking your name to his for all eternity.
Reflect - and repent! Unlike your protege, who is totally unrepentant, and is now working overtime blaming others for his own actions, and seeking sympathy for himself.
America will NOT forget the Trump Putsch, nor the role played by your protege. Or your role in his political advancement.
Most sincerely,
PS - Please give my regards to Justice Thomas's missus, she's another fine "Patriot" in the Trump-Hawley mode.
i am not terribly interested in US politics and think the UK would be far better obsessing about its own or at least Europe but isn't Biden a bit doddery mentally ? Or has this been cured?
I thought he'd get obliterated in the debates by young articulate folk like Cory Booker and Peter Buttigieg and Beto O'Rourke. But he managed to survive that.
And he's been in the public eye a fair amount since the election, and I've not seen much dodderyness so far.
Ironically I think the early battering he took from Harris meant that everyone else left him for dead in the later debates (I certainly did).
So he hung around as other contenders were taken out and people forgot about how badly he got smashed.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Basket of deplorables all over again.
One key difference; I'm not asking people to vote for me
But the attitude is the same. And as others have pointed out, it isn't helpful.
I think the coddling attitude of the past four years hasn't helped. You fight fascism in your own way, and good luck to you. Personally I think it's ok to be honest about the failings of people even if they happen to be large in number. A few of you have had no problem telling me you think I'm wrong, which is fine. Any real difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying?
Trump's base was certainly the white working class who felt left behind by globalisation.
For example while Trump won whites without a college degree by a landslide 67% to just 32% for Biden, Biden actually won whites with a college degree, who are still doing relatively well from globalisation in professional jobs less hit by lockdowns and less affected by automation, by 51% to 48% for Trump.
However Trump's appeal to white working class voters did not extend to non white working class voters. Biden won non-whites without a college degree by a a landslide 72% to just 26% for Trump. Trump actually did better with non-whites with a college degree, getting 27% of their votes
This is not really true IIRC, or rather it depends on which lens you choose to view his electorate. Trumps base is centred in the white petite bourgeoisie - small business owners, real estate agents, small town lawyers etc etc. The actual white working classes are toiling away in call centres taking their angry customer service calls or cleaning their toilets. They still vote majority Democrat.
The whole political class needs to consider why Trump won in the first place.
I doubt they will. It is far easier just to demonise the other side and play to your base.
Trump is a symptom, not a cause, as Richard identified. It also should be noted that many of his supporters thought he was an unadultered asshole but voted for him anyway because they thought he was the only Republican politician with the balls to push back against what was seen as an agenda that would further marginalise the white working and middle class.
The one thing that should worry the Democrats though is that many Hispanics increasingly identify with the WWC / W(lower)MC view of the world.
In America, almost everyone is middle class, as @Richard_Tyndall's header notes. That is why American politicians bang on about helping the middle class all of the time. It does not have the same meaning it has here.
There is more than economic hardship caused by globalisation though, which is a sense of unfairness. Victims have played by the rules: they worked hard at school, played on the football, swim or cheerleading teams, passed their SATs and went to college. They played by the rules and still got screwed over when their jobs were outsourced by globalisation or automation, and those who kept their jobs have seen their wages stagnate and fall in real terms. Life's unfair.
And those cheap imports to compensate for falling wages and lost jobs? Mostly very expensive owing to branding. Naive economic theory talks about commoditisation of fungible goods but while that should lead to cheap trainers, the power of the Nike Swoosh means trainers are not fungible so companies, not consumers, pocket the difference between $5 imports and $100 retail sales.
And these companies pay millions to their bosses and a damn sight less to their workers, especially since the demise of trade unions. Life's unfair. And it is the unfairness that leads to the rise of the populists.
The other day I talked about the decline here and in America of cold war politics, the period ending with Reagan and Thatcher, but on reflection that is not the right label. It is class-based politics that died.
So class-based (20th Century up to Reagan and Thatcher), then globalisation (Clinton and Blair) and then populists (Trump and Boris, and Farage too given the success of Brexit).
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Basket of deplorables all over again.
More people voted for Hillary than for Trump in 2016!
You must be VERY proud of your protege and former clerk, Josh Hawley who is currently US Senator from Missouri. Who of course attained his position, as well as his previous post as Attorney General of the State of Missouri, in part because of YOUR mentoring and credentialing.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Basket of deplorables all over again.
One key difference; I'm not asking people to vote for me
But the attitude is the same. And as others have pointed out, it isn't helpful.
I think the coddling attitude of the past four years hasn't helped. You fight fascism in your own way, and good luck to you. Personally I think it's ok to be honest about the failings of people even if they happen to be large in number. A few of you have had no problem telling me you think I'm wrong, which is fine. Any real difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying?
"QAnon conspiracy theorists, praying for years that Trump would flush Satan-worshipping pedophile elites out of Washington, tore apart any scrap of data from the video to prove that he was playing one final trick. They subjected the time stamps to numerology, thinking that there was a secret message encoded. “In no way did Trump say he conceded. He said: transitioning to a new Admin. As in, he gonna clear this one out and bring a new one,” tweeted We The Inevitable, a conspiracy account, getting more than 3,000 retweets within the hour. The account’s followers agreed that this was surely a sign that he was getting rid of Vice President Mike Pence — now cast as a MAGA traitor after participating in the certification of Biden’s win — and that on Jan. 20, retired Gen. Michael Flynn, now a full-fledged QAnon patriot, would replace him in Trump’s second term.
Trump's base was certainly the white working class who felt left behind by globalisation.
For example while Trump won whites without a college degree by a landslide 67% to just 32% for Biden, Biden actually won whites with a college degree, who are still doing relatively well from globalisation in professional jobs less hit by lockdowns and less affected by automation, by 51% to 48% for Trump.
However Trump's appeal to white working class voters did not extend to non white working class voters. Biden won non-whites without a college degree by a a landslide 72% to just 26% for Trump. Trump actually did better with non-whites with a college degree, getting 27% of their votes
This is not really true IIRC, or rather it depends on which lens you choose to view his electorate. Trumps base is centred in the white petite bourgeoisie - small business owners, real estate agents, small town lawyers etc etc. The actual white working classes are toiling away in call centres taking their angry customer service calls or cleaning their toilets. They still vote majority Democrat.
I’ll dig up the references if you want.
Oh it very much is true.
Whites working in call centres overwhelmingly voted for Trump, as did whites working in supermarkets, in small businesses, on assembly lines, as firefighters etc as the exit poll data I showed you confirms.
Biden's support amongst whites came mainly from professional middle class whites ie white lawyers, white doctors, white teachers and academics etc.
The Black working class might vote Democrat, the white working class is overwhelmingly Republican
In 2016, if you were a Martian that had landed straight in the middle of the US Presidential election, you would have thought that the issue of transgender bathroom was one of the most important issues out there at a time when small town America was seeing an explosion of opioid deaths and suicides, and the replacement of well paid, secure jobs with lowly paid, uncertain work.
Citation needed.
Famously, of course, the Republican Govenor of North Carolina lost his election after signing a bathroom bill - a bill authored by the GOP majority. It seems the only side obsessed are the GOP. And even then only a subset, even Kristi Noem thinks there is no political capital in pushing an anti trans agenda.
Good article Richard. My discussions with Americans I know makes me think there are a lot of people on the centre right that held their nose and voted for Trump, not necessarily out of enthusiasm, but out of an even deeper mistrust of the Democrats. Not that dissimilar to those that voted for the Johnson led Tories. People often vote for the party that keeps out what they don't want rather than enthusiastically endorsing the manifesto of the alternative that they ostensibly vote for.
Yes, I think that's right. The Trump supporters that I know (including my great-aunt, who lives in Virginia) first and foremost put forward their dislike of the Democrats - "corruipt", "socialists", "atheists". It takes them a while to get round to positive views of Trump, and when they do it's as a standard-bearer against the alien Dems. I wouldn't say any of them are desperate, just angry.
When globalisation spread I thought at the time that it would be a great leveller globally for the reasons Richard evinces - that's the main reason why China in particular has done so well -but also very bad news for people with limited expertise. Experts aren't usually adversely affected by globalisation - if you need a nuclear physicist, the cost of employing someone local is probably a trivial part of your project, though your candidates might be sniffing out jobs abroad.
In my view, it's a fundamental role of government to understand what's happening and soften the blow for those adversely affected, for example by taxing the beneficiaries and retraining the losers. The failure of centrist government in both Britain and the US has been to tinker ineffectively and let people drift downwards - it has confused moderation with not doing very much at all, which is not the same thing. The effect is to empower extremists, who say very loudly that Something Must Be Done. People who have tired of benign neglect find that pretty attractive.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Basket of deplorables all over again.
One key difference; I'm not asking people to vote for me
But the attitude is the same. And as others have pointed out, it isn't helpful.
I think the coddling attitude of the past four years hasn't helped. You fight fascism in your own way, and good luck to you. Personally I think it's ok to be honest about the failings of people even if they happen to be large in number. A few of you have had no problem telling me you think I'm wrong, which is fine. Any real difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying?
I'm not calling half of the electorate idiots.
I said they made a bad choice, either because they were asleep or selfish. Even clever people do that kind of thing.
"Patriot" is Trumpsky-Putinist code for "Fascist".
Maybe a shock to some PBers, but strangely the Republican Party is NOT rallying around their Fearless Leader and his fellow "Patriots" in the wake of the Trumpsky Putsch.
"Hawley’s political patron, former Sen. John Danforth (R-Mo.), turned on him, calling his support the 'biggest mistake I’ve ever made.' His top donor, David Humphreys, said he should be censured."
"Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-Texas), a Navy SEAL who was wounded in Afghanistan, told the Houston Chronicle: 'All of the members who called for everyone to come and fight and make their last stand, all of those members were scattered like cowards while the Capitol Police had to do the fighting.'"
I think Politico are being rather selective. Trump's allies easily maintain control of the RNC
Also, the WSJ has a poll today - 54% of Republicans consider themselves to be more of a supporter than Donald Trump vs 38% who consider themselves a supporter more of the GOP (not sure if this is behind a paywall)
Doubt that Trumpsky is likely to pardon ANYBODY in the time remaining, except maybe members of this own family.
BECAUSE the ONLY thing he cares about his himself, first, last & always. AND he'd got enough problems himself, poor baby.
Sorry, that's an insult to all babies which I now retract!
As for the RNC, it's current stance is no wonder, as it's been stacked & stuffed full of Putinists. And is anyway just a collection of political hacks, just like the DNC. NOT truly representative of the mass of voters.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Basket of deplorables all over again.
One key difference; I'm not asking people to vote for me
But the attitude is the same. And as others have pointed out, it isn't helpful.
I think the coddling attitude of the past four years hasn't helped. You fight fascism in your own way, and good luck to you. Personally I think it's ok to be honest about the failings of people even if they happen to be large in number. A few of you have had no problem telling me you think I'm wrong, which is fine. Any real difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying?
I'm not calling half of the electorate idiots.
I said they made a bad choice, either because they were asleep or selfish. Even clever people do that kind of thing.
No, you said they were stupid.
I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
I work in the field of risk management in complex adaptive systems in high risk, fast changing environments where very small changes in inputs that usually produce expected outcome can result in truly catastrophic events.
What is a striking feature in all such industries is that, for all but those 5% of occasions where there was malintent, the persons whose decisions were the proximal cause of the catastrophe thought they were doing the right thing at the time of the decision. That being the case, it is not useful in investigating such incidents to stop your findings at 'human error'. It tells you nothing and does nothing to help you prevent recurrence of the problem going forward. Indeed, other studies show that most people with the same level of experience and training put in the position of the person who made the bad call would have made the same bad call.
So the only way to improve is to find the characteristics of the system that made the operator think that the wrong decision was the right one.
I take the same approach with Trump voters. It is simply unhelpful to say they made a wrong decision. It does not help us prevent a recurrence, and it does not help them, as they never thought they made a mistake, except perhaps in retrospect. What about the system made them think it was the right thing to do to vote for Trump? What can we fix in the system to prevent that same miscalculation being made by them AND OTHERS in the future? Unless we seek to answer those questions, we are doomed to repeat history, as are unsafe organizations who blame 'human error' for major accidents.
One last thought - in all my research on trust and altruism, the only conclusion I can draw is that it is easy to stick to our morals until we are in dire straits. Then all bets are off for that vast majority of the population. There are very, very few Nelson Mandelas amongst us. It is a very brave, or overly confident person, who can state with certainty that, put in exactly the same circumstances as a Trump voter from lower middle class Michigan in 2016, they would have voted differently.
"Patriot" is Trumpsky-Putinist code for "Fascist".
Maybe a shock to some PBers, but strangely the Republican Party is NOT rallying around their Fearless Leader and his fellow "Patriots" in the wake of the Trumpsky Putsch.
"Hawley’s political patron, former Sen. John Danforth (R-Mo.), turned on him, calling his support the 'biggest mistake I’ve ever made.' His top donor, David Humphreys, said he should be censured."
"Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-Texas), a Navy SEAL who was wounded in Afghanistan, told the Houston Chronicle: 'All of the members who called for everyone to come and fight and make their last stand, all of those members were scattered like cowards while the Capitol Police had to do the fighting.'"
I think Politico are being rather selective. Trump's allies easily maintain control of the RNC
Also, the WSJ has a poll today - 54% of Republicans consider themselves to be more of a supporter than Donald Trump vs 38% who consider themselves a supporter more of the GOP (not sure if this is behind a paywall)
In 2016, if you were a Martian that had landed straight in the middle of the US Presidential election, you would have thought that the issue of transgender bathroom was one of the most important issues out there at a time when small town America was seeing an explosion of opioid deaths and suicides, and the replacement of well paid, secure jobs with lowly paid, uncertain work.
Citation needed.
Famously, of course, the Republican Govenor of North Carolina lost his election after signing a bathroom bill - a bill authored by the GOP majority. It seems the only side obsessed are the GOP. And even then only a subset, even Kristi Noem thinks there is no political capital in pushing an anti trans agenda.
Trump's base was certainly the white working class who felt left behind by globalisation.
For example while Trump won whites without a college degree by a landslide 67% to just 32% for Biden, Biden actually won whites with a college degree, who are still doing relatively well from globalisation in professional jobs less hit by lockdowns and less affected by automation, by 51% to 48% for Trump.
However Trump's appeal to white working class voters did not extend to non white working class voters. Biden won non-whites without a college degree by a a landslide 72% to just 26% for Trump. Trump actually did better with non-whites with a college degree, getting 27% of their votes
This is not really true IIRC, or rather it depends on which lens you choose to view his electorate. Trumps base is centred in the white petite bourgeoisie - small business owners, real estate agents, small town lawyers etc etc. The actual white working classes are toiling away in call centres taking their angry customer service calls or cleaning their toilets. They still vote majority Democrat.
I’ll dig up the references if you want.
The list of people here who have been arrested so far backs you up I think.
Perhaps a question to ask is: Why would you have to be a demagogue successfully to address issues of such compelling importance that 70million+ people, most of them we presume ordinary and neither fascist nor extreme in themselves, will vote for a demagogic fascist with fascist followers on account of it? Couldn't someone fairly normal have a go?
Another upside is that he has quite probably taken his sons’ political prospects down with him.
I wonder if he could just become a media movement, broadcasting to a vast audience in the US from overseas, and continuing to exert quite a large influence over the American Right.
Doubt that Trumpsky is likely to pardon ANYBODY in the time remaining, except maybe members of this own family.
BECAUSE the ONLY thing he cares about his himself, first, last & always. AND he'd got enough problems himself, poor baby.
Sorry, that's an insult to all babies which I now retract!
I like the argument that pardoning people creates danger for himself, because a pardonee cannot plead the right not to self-incriminate when compelled to give evidence against Trump.
According to the CNN exit poll Trump, amongst white voters, did exactly same with the less than $100k demo as with the over $100k. With 59% of the vote.
"Patriot" is Trumpsky-Putinist code for "Fascist".
Maybe a shock to some PBers, but strangely the Republican Party is NOT rallying around their Fearless Leader and his fellow "Patriots" in the wake of the Trumpsky Putsch.
"Hawley’s political patron, former Sen. John Danforth (R-Mo.), turned on him, calling his support the 'biggest mistake I’ve ever made.' His top donor, David Humphreys, said he should be censured."
"Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-Texas), a Navy SEAL who was wounded in Afghanistan, told the Houston Chronicle: 'All of the members who called for everyone to come and fight and make their last stand, all of those members were scattered like cowards while the Capitol Police had to do the fighting.'"
I think Politico are being rather selective. Trump's allies easily maintain control of the RNC
Also, the WSJ has a poll today - 54% of Republicans consider themselves to be more of a supporter than Donald Trump vs 38% who consider themselves a supporter more of the GOP (not sure if this is behind a paywall)
Doesn't that show deterioration in the Trumpsky-Putinist position? Which is gonna increase over the next weeks.
Remember the trajectory of Tail-Gunner Joe . . . and wait for it.
Even the Politico article that talked about Hawley reportedly in trouble was mostly about his mentor turning against him but also pointed out that it was unlikely he would lose today.
Maybe Trump will see a decline in support but the idea that we are going back to those "wonderful" Republicans like Romney is a fallacy. The agenda around Trump will stay, it may just be presented with a different face.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
I work in the field of risk management in complex adaptive systems in high risk, fast changing environments where very small changes in inputs that usually produce expected outcome can result in truly catastrophic events.
What is a striking feature in all such industries is that, for all but those 5% of occasions where there was malintent, the persons whose decisions were the proximal cause of the catastrophe thought they were doing the right thing at the time of the decision. That being the case, it is not useful in investigating such incidents to stop your findings at 'human error'. It tells you nothing and does nothing to help you prevent recurrence of the problem going forward. Indeed, other studies show that most people with the same level of experience and training put in the position of the person who made the bad call would have made the same bad call.
So the only way to improve is to find the characteristics of the system that made the operator think that the wrong decision was the right one.
I take the same approach with Trump voters. It is simply unhelpful to say they made a wrong decision. It does not help us prevent a recurrence, and it does not help them, as they never thought they made a mistake, except perhaps in retrospect. What about the system made them think it was the right thing to do to vote for Trump? What can we fix in the system to prevent that same miscalculation being made by the AND OTHERS in the future? Unless we seek to answer those questions, we are doomed to repeat history, as are unsafe organizations who blame 'human error' for major accidents.
One last thought - in all my research on trust and altruism, the only conclusion I can draw is that it is easy to stick to our morals until we are in dire straits. Then all bets are off for that vast majority of the population. There are very, very few Nelson Mandelas amongst us. It is a very brave, or overly confident person, who can state with certainty that, put in exactly the same circumstances as a Trump voter from lower middle class Michigan in 2016, they would have voted differently.
Interesting, and something I wouldn't mind hearing more about. Yes, systems are vitally important in governing human behaviour, but let's not completely forget about personal responsibility. When we vote, we are in part responsible for what happens next (at least the actions of those you voted for), and if things go wrong it's reasonable to ask yourself "could I have known?"
Doubt that Trumpsky is likely to pardon ANYBODY in the time remaining, except maybe members of this own family.
BECAUSE the ONLY thing he cares about his himself, first, last & always. AND he'd got enough problems himself, poor baby.
Sorry, that's an insult to all babies which I now retract!
I like the argument that pardoning people creates danger for himself, because a pardonee cannot plead the right not to self-incriminate when compelled to give evidence against Trump.
I believe that there is some case law against that position. IIRC some of it dates to HUAC - the idea of pardoning people so as to force them to name *other*, more important people came up.
Perhaps a question to ask is: Why would you have to be a demagogue successfully to address issues of such compelling importance that 70million+ people will vote for a demagogic fascist on account of it? Couldn't someone fairly normal have a go?
Many of those concerns are in fact socio-economic, but are easily manipulated to be represented as the result of current ethnic and cultural polarisations. The American system is simply failing catastrophically to address these underlying systemic, structural issues, because it's so captured by large corporate interests. This was more manageable in the first two decades after the radical market shift of the 1980s, but since the financial crisis increasingly and obviously less so.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Basket of deplorables all over again.
One key difference; I'm not asking people to vote for me
But the attitude is the same. And as others have pointed out, it isn't helpful.
I think the coddling attitude of the past four years hasn't helped. You fight fascism in your own way, and good luck to you. Personally I think it's ok to be honest about the failings of people even if they happen to be large in number. A few of you have had no problem telling me you think I'm wrong, which is fine. Any real difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying?
In 2016, if you were a Martian that had landed straight in the middle of the US Presidential election, you would have thought that the issue of transgender bathroom was one of the most important issues out there at a time when small town America was seeing an explosion of opioid deaths and suicides, and the replacement of well paid, secure jobs with lowly paid, uncertain work.
Citation needed.
Famously, of course, the Republican Govenor of North Carolina lost his election after signing a bathroom bill - a bill authored by the GOP majority. It seems the only side obsessed are the GOP. And even then only a subset, even Kristi Noem thinks there is no political capital in pushing an anti trans agenda.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
I work in the field of risk management in complex adaptive systems in high risk, fast changing environments where very small changes in inputs that usually produce expected outcome can result in truly catastrophic events.
What is a striking feature in all such industries is that, for all but those 5% of occasions where there was malintent, the persons whose decisions were the proximal cause of the catastrophe thought they were doing the right thing at the time of the decision. That being the case, it is not useful in investigating such incidents to stop your findings at 'human error'. It tells you nothing and does nothing to help you prevent recurrence of the problem going forward. Indeed, other studies show that most people with the same level of experience and training put in the position of the person who made the bad call would have made the same bad call.
So the only way to improve is to find the characteristics of the system that made the operator think that the wrong decision was the right one.
I take the same approach with Trump voters. It is simply unhelpful to say they made a wrong decision. It does not help us prevent a recurrence, and it does not help them, as they never thought they made a mistake, except perhaps in retrospect. What about the system made them think it was the right thing to do to vote for Trump? What can we fix in the system to prevent that same miscalculation being made by the AND OTHERS in the future? Unless we seek to answer those questions, we are doomed to repeat history, as are unsafe organizations who blame 'human error' for major accidents.
One last thought - in all my research on trust and altruism, the only conclusion I can draw is that it is easy to stick to our morals until we are in dire straits. Then all bets are off for that vast majority of the population. There are very, very few Nelson Mandelas amongst us. It is a very brave, or overly confident person, who can state with certainty that, put in exactly the same circumstances as a Trump voter from lower middle class Michigan in 2016, they would have voted differently.
Interesting, and something I wouldn't mind hearing more about. Yes, systems are vitally important in governing human behaviour, but let's not completely forget about personal responsibility. When we vote, we are in part responsible for what happens next (at least the actions of those you voted for), and if things go wrong it's reasonable to ask yourself "could I have known?"
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
I work in the field of risk management in complex adaptive systems in high risk, fast changing environments where very small changes in inputs that usually produce expected outcome can result in truly catastrophic events.
What is a striking feature in all such industries is that, for all but those 5% of occasions where there was malintent, the persons whose decisions were the proximal cause of the catastrophe thought they were doing the right thing at the time of the decision. That being the case, it is not useful in investigating such incidents to stop your findings at 'human error'. It tells you nothing and does nothing to help you prevent recurrence of the problem going forward. Indeed, other studies show that most people with the same level of experience and training put in the position of the person who made the bad call would have made the same bad call.
So the only way to improve is to find the characteristics of the system that made the operator think that the wrong decision was the right one.
I take the same approach with Trump voters. It is simply unhelpful to say they made a wrong decision. It does not help us prevent a recurrence, and it does not help them, as they never thought they made a mistake, except perhaps in retrospect. What about the system made them think it was the right thing to do to vote for Trump? What can we fix in the system to prevent that same miscalculation being made by the AND OTHERS in the future? Unless we seek to answer those questions, we are doomed to repeat history, as are unsafe organizations who blame 'human error' for major accidents.
One last thought - in all my research on trust and altruism, the only conclusion I can draw is that it is easy to stick to our morals until we are in dire straits. Then all bets are off for that vast majority of the population. There are very, very few Nelson Mandelas amongst us. It is a very brave, or overly confident person, who can state with certainty that, put in exactly the same circumstances as a Trump voter from lower middle class Michigan in 2016, they would have voted differently.
Interesting, and something I wouldn't mind hearing more about. Yes, systems are vitally important in governing human behaviour, but let's not completely forget about personal responsibility. When we vote, we are in part responsible for what happens next (at least the actions of those you voted for), and if things go wrong it's reasonable to ask yourself "could I have known?"
And I do take your point, particularly in relation to those like Cruz and Hawley, who knew better but who cynically sought personal benefit from the situation. For them, contempt is too kind. I just think it is relevant to just a very, very small subset of Trump voters.
"Patriot" is Trumpsky-Putinist code for "Fascist".
Maybe a shock to some PBers, but strangely the Republican Party is NOT rallying around their Fearless Leader and his fellow "Patriots" in the wake of the Trumpsky Putsch.
"Hawley’s political patron, former Sen. John Danforth (R-Mo.), turned on him, calling his support the 'biggest mistake I’ve ever made.' His top donor, David Humphreys, said he should be censured."
"Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-Texas), a Navy SEAL who was wounded in Afghanistan, told the Houston Chronicle: 'All of the members who called for everyone to come and fight and make their last stand, all of those members were scattered like cowards while the Capitol Police had to do the fighting.'"
I think Politico are being rather selective. Trump's allies easily maintain control of the RNC
Also, the WSJ has a poll today - 54% of Republicans consider themselves to be more of a supporter than Donald Trump vs 38% who consider themselves a supporter more of the GOP (not sure if this is behind a paywall)
Doesn't that show deterioration in the Trumpsky-Putinist position? Which is gonna increase over the next weeks.
Remember the trajectory of Tail-Gunner Joe . . . and wait for it.
Even the Politico article that talked about Hawley reportedly in trouble was mostly about his mentor turning against him but also pointed out that it was unlikely he would lose today.
Maybe Trump will see a decline in support but the idea that we are going back to those "wonderful" Republicans like Romney is a fallacy. The agenda around Trump will stay, it may just be presented with a different face.
We shall see. Surely American conservative will NOT go away. But it gave itself a REAL kick in the ass this week. And there will be consequences.
For example, Bloody Hands Hawley will NEVER be President of the United States. Indeed, think it unlikely he will be able to win re-election, or even re-nomination, as US Senator.
"Patriot" is Trumpsky-Putinist code for "Fascist".
Maybe a shock to some PBers, but strangely the Republican Party is NOT rallying around their Fearless Leader and his fellow "Patriots" in the wake of the Trumpsky Putsch.
"Hawley’s political patron, former Sen. John Danforth (R-Mo.), turned on him, calling his support the 'biggest mistake I’ve ever made.' His top donor, David Humphreys, said he should be censured."
"Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-Texas), a Navy SEAL who was wounded in Afghanistan, told the Houston Chronicle: 'All of the members who called for everyone to come and fight and make their last stand, all of those members were scattered like cowards while the Capitol Police had to do the fighting.'"
That's encouraging. For the sake of the party, and the political discourse of the country, Ihope it continues.
It innocently asked people to send details of their names, addresses, and crimes that they wanted to be pardoned for...
99.99999 per cent certainly fraudulent but if President Trump had a shred of honour, he'd pardon the MAGA mugs he incited to storm the Senate and accept his own culpability.
Unfortunately for them, he doesn't and won't so it is time to bake some files into cakes.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Basket of deplorables all over again.
One key difference; I'm not asking people to vote for me
But the attitude is the same. And as others have pointed out, it isn't helpful.
I think the coddling attitude of the past four years hasn't helped. You fight fascism in your own way, and good luck to you. Personally I think it's ok to be honest about the failings of people even if they happen to be large in number. A few of you have had no problem telling me you think I'm wrong, which is fine. Any real difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying?
I'm not calling half of the electorate idiots.
I said they made a bad choice, either because they were asleep or selfish. Even clever people do that kind of thing.
No, you said they were stupid.
I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep
Initially: "had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt" later: "was stupid or asleep"
I'll settle on "was stupid, careless, or asleep". Perhaps a combination of the above.
As it happens I think "asleep" is probably the key to it, but if you want to think that I'm just saying everyone's an idiot, I'm not too worried. I would tend towards the event-oriented judgement than the personal-qualities-oriented judgement. People do stupid things, and only sometimes because they are stupid.
I'll keep coming back to the drunk driver metaphor. I know otherwise sensible people who've done that, including my own father who was unwisely took a drive after five pints and flattened a lamppost. A stupid thing to do but not (normally) a stupid man.
"Patriot" is Trumpsky-Putinist code for "Fascist".
Maybe a shock to some PBers, but strangely the Republican Party is NOT rallying around their Fearless Leader and his fellow "Patriots" in the wake of the Trumpsky Putsch.
"Hawley’s political patron, former Sen. John Danforth (R-Mo.), turned on him, calling his support the 'biggest mistake I’ve ever made.' His top donor, David Humphreys, said he should be censured."
"Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-Texas), a Navy SEAL who was wounded in Afghanistan, told the Houston Chronicle: 'All of the members who called for everyone to come and fight and make their last stand, all of those members were scattered like cowards while the Capitol Police had to do the fighting.'"
I think Politico are being rather selective. Trump's allies easily maintain control of the RNC
Also, the WSJ has a poll today - 54% of Republicans consider themselves to be more of a supporter than Donald Trump vs 38% who consider themselves a supporter more of the GOP (not sure if this is behind a paywall)
Doesn't that show deterioration in the Trumpsky-Putinist position? Which is gonna increase over the next weeks.
Remember the trajectory of Tail-Gunner Joe . . . and wait for it.
Even the Politico article that talked about Hawley reportedly in trouble was mostly about his mentor turning against him but also pointed out that it was unlikely he would lose today.
Maybe Trump will see a decline in support but the idea that we are going back to those "wonderful" Republicans like Romney is a fallacy. The agenda around Trump will stay, it may just be presented with a different face.
We shall see. Surely American conservative will NOT go away. But it gave itself a REAL kick in the ass this week. And there will be consequences.
For example, Bloody Hands Hawley will NEVER be President of the United States. Indeed, think it unlikely he will be able to win re-election, or even re-nomination, as US Senator.
I agree on the former, I disagree on the latter.
57% of Missouri voters voted for Trump and he is the state Senator.
As the WSJ poll Mr Ed linked to shows most GOP voters still back Trump.
I saw somewhere that "GIANT VOICE" is apparently a code used in the military to trigger some sort of operation. I doubt this is true, but rather shows the level of wishful thinking out there.
It's the generic name for base wide PA systems.
I was wondering about that too - that does seem to be the current meaning. But it is or was also the term for Strategic Air Command's annual bombing competition for many years. Which is an excuse to have a Vulcan photo for when the sun is over the yardarm of a Saturday. Less calrific than nibbles (which I am being given - tapenade on water biscuits).
I once was playing golf at Lossiemouth when one of these took off directly overhead and it felt like you were being drilled into extinction. It didn't help as we were downwind and did not hear it coming
I will never forget it
Gives me the creeps these bomber aircraft , especially when people think they are something to behold
They are though. You have to remember this thing was put on the drawing board in the late 40's and early 50's. It is an incredible bit of engineering for the time.
What they were designed for is beside the point, although my father in law remembers them being on the runway at Finningley fully armed during the early 60s.
I witnessed the last flight. Such a shame it had to be grounded.
I've been up the ladder and in the cockpit of one - in the Museum of Flight one at East Fortune, during an open day. All matt black and a fighter joystick.
In 2016, if you were a Martian that had landed straight in the middle of the US Presidential election, you would have thought that the issue of transgender bathroom was one of the most important issues out there at a time when small town America was seeing an explosion of opioid deaths and suicides, and the replacement of well paid, secure jobs with lowly paid, uncertain work.
Citation needed.
Famously, of course, the Republican Govenor of North Carolina lost his election after signing a bathroom bill - a bill authored by the GOP majority. It seems the only side obsessed are the GOP. And even then only a subset, even Kristi Noem thinks there is no political capital in pushing an anti trans agenda.
Very happy to provide citations but I take it you'll be providing your own when you make a statement...
So your example of how it dominated the election of Clinton and Trump is an opinion piece in vox about a lawsuit against the Obama administration?
OK.
I didn't say it dominated the election though, did I? The exact words were "you would have thought that the issue of transgender bathroom was one of the most important issues out there". Which, given the amount of news articles and discussions given to it in 2016, it was.
And, yup, as you can see from all the measures for and against it, and the court cases, it ranked pretty highly in what was going on in 2016.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Basket of deplorables all over again.
Yawn. I hope this response was because you're short of time - the condition which prevents me elaborating.
On topic. Actually, I think I WILL reserve the right to feel scorn at those who voted for Trump.
Here is a man who, before the election, was revealed to be a racist, disability-mocking sex pest.
Anyone who voted for him, voted to put him into a position of trust. The position where not only the buck stops in terms of overseeing the care of the vulnerable, but also the tone is set. Even if you thought your economic interests would be marginally better with that kind of man in the White House (and I doubt that's the case anyway), you're throwing the vulnerable under the bus.
That's the voting equivalent of pushing a granny over to grab the last bottle of paracetamol off the pharmacy shelves, because hey, YOU want it.
Trump is not, and has never been "at times borderline psychopathic". He's fully over the line 100% of the time. He's not just damaged, he's full-blown mad, and as much was clear LONG before even the Rep primaries were finished.
If you aren't going to pay enough attention to whom you're voting for, don't fucking vote at all, you don't know what you're doing. If you don't care that someone is a clear and present danger to the democratic process, don't fucking vote, you don't deserve it. If all you care about is your own pocket, no matter who gets hurt then vote as you see fit but don't get your knickers in a twist when someone calls you a scumbag for your choice.
Every single person who voted for Trump either had their eyes closed or just didn't care that people would get hurt. No exceptions. I have more respect for people who drink drive, and I really, really hate those bastards.
Which is why you are so much a part of the problem and are as bad - in your own way - as those who voted for Trump. You live in a country that provides, for most people at least, a basic safety net. You also live a country where seeing large scale year on year drops in your income - not relative income but actual - is fairly uncommon for most people except in the times of utmost economic hardship such as the financial crash. This is not the case in the US where people live much closer to the edge of economic catastrophe on a daily basis.
For you to sit here and scorn them for hoping to make their lives better reflects very poorly on you.
I think it's disingenuous to say I "scorn them for hoping to make their lives better". I scorn them for endangering EVERYONE'S lives. You might as well chide me for scorning a drunk driver for just wanting to get home in good time. Nah, I don't mind that desire, and hey, perhaps you'll even make it home safe. But if they smash into a pedestrian because they misjudged the situation horribly are you going to sit there are stroke your chin and say hmmm, yes, I can see why they made that choice.
It was a bad choice. And not only in hindsight. It was risky, selfish, self-defeating. And we absolutely are allowed to call out the stupid choices other people make. It's actually a necessary part of the democratic process.
So you really think it is useful to equate 46% of an electorate to a drunk driver? You really think that the reason 46% voted the way they did could only be through stupidity or selfishness?
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
Mmmm not quite. I am very interested indeed to hear people's solutions to the profound problems affecting American society. The epidemic in deaths of despair (suicide, alcohol, illegal- and legal-drug addiction) is perhaps the most pressing issue, and the capture by the elite of the lion's share of the profits made from productivity gains is, in my view, a close second. And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
I work in the field of risk management in complex adaptive systems in high risk, fast changing environments where very small changes in inputs that usually produce expected outcome can result in truly catastrophic events.
What is a striking feature in all such industries is that, for all but those 5% of occasions where there was malintent, the persons whose decisions were the proximal cause of the catastrophe thought they were doing the right thing at the time of the decision. That being the case, it is not useful in investigating such incidents to stop your findings at 'human error'. It tells you nothing and does nothing to help you prevent recurrence of the problem going forward. Indeed, other studies show that most people with the same level of experience and training put in the position of the person who made the bad call would have made the same bad call.
So the only way to improve is to find the characteristics of the system that made the operator think that the wrong decision was the right one.
I take the same approach with Trump voters. It is simply unhelpful to say they made a wrong decision. It does not help us prevent a recurrence, and it does not help them, as they never thought they made a mistake, except perhaps in retrospect. What about the system made them think it was the right thing to do to vote for Trump? What can we fix in the system to prevent that same miscalculation being made by the AND OTHERS in the future? Unless we seek to answer those questions, we are doomed to repeat history, as are unsafe organizations who blame 'human error' for major accidents.
One last thought - in all my research on trust and altruism, the only conclusion I can draw is that it is easy to stick to our morals until we are in dire straits. Then all bets are off for that vast majority of the population. There are very, very few Nelson Mandelas amongst us. It is a very brave, or overly confident person, who can state with certainty that, put in exactly the same circumstances as a Trump voter from lower middle class Michigan in 2016, they would have voted differently.
Interesting, and something I wouldn't mind hearing more about. Yes, systems are vitally important in governing human behaviour, but let's not completely forget about personal responsibility. When we vote, we are in part responsible for what happens next (at least the actions of those you voted for), and if things go wrong it's reasonable to ask yourself "could I have known?"
No, but thanks for the recommendation. I'm due a new audible credit in a few days time and I've listened to everything else in my audio library, so it might be timely.
According to the CNN exit poll Trump, amongst white voters, did exactly same with the less than $100k demo as with the over $100k. With 59% of the vote.
That link actually shows Trump did better with white voters earning $50 to $100 000 on 62% compared to white voters earning over $100 000 where he got 59%.
The point was about graduates rather than income but of course the most graduates will be found amongst the richest voters with a household income over $100 000 so that just confirms the point.
By contrast amongst Latino voters for example Trump did far better with the richest voters, getting 61% of Latinos earning over $100 000 a year compared to just 29% of Latinos earning under $100 000 in household income.
Comments
You clearly have no interest in trying to learn from this situation, only to shame and blame.
And he's been in the public eye a fair amount since the election, and I've not seen much dodderyness so far.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Judge,_Baron_Judge
Interestingly I see the latter is now Convenor of the Crossbench Peers, and his predecessor as Convenor was a former Member of the Supreme Court. Perhaps becoming a trend.
Doesn’t alter the fact that Trump is a has-been loser. He is the deranged president that incited violence on his own democracy.
Do you still support him?
I am reminded of the Ron Pearlman character in the film 'The Last Supper'. They are out there and they will take advantage of the desperation of millions of Americans if the mainstream politicians continue to ignore them.
Three-jay - Justice Jim Justice
Personally I'd have been happy to see a Judge De'Ath.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/now-the-trial-of-nicola-sturgeon-begins
Why would anyone in that situation had voted for Hillary Clinton and the Democrats? They offered nothing. Trump offered the possibility of something, even if many who voted for him, didn't believe him. In fact, he probably delivered more than they expected on that front.
And the future is going to be far worse if nobody gets a handle on it now. One of the biggest impacts of Covid has been to massively ramp up inequality in the States. If you are in a well-paid professional job, with a decent share portfolio, this crisis has actually been a plus - better work-life balance, less commuting and an increased portfolio. But if you are at the bottom end of the scale, it has been an unmitigated disaster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Judge,_Baron_Judge
https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/court-enema-vexatious-litigant-anal-sheikh
buying a Neighbours video cassette in 1993
Once being a fan of the BBC (before they went through their "hello Magazine Makeover"
Cheating at golf
Drinking a coffee (and get this ) AND having a bacon sandwich AND sitting in a park and in no way exercising today whilst doing it
And I find it understandable that faced with these problems people's voting patterns might trend somewhat more radical. All this is very reasonable stuff.
But every so often someone comes along who is so far beyond the pale that they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. I don't remember another American politician in my lifetime fitting into that category.
And yes, I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep. And, well, events have actually proven that those who said he was bad news were absolutely 100% right.
You seem to be trying to say "these people had their reasons", and I don't dispute that. I'm only saying that those reasons were not good enough and they made a mistake. A gravely serious mistake. I'm quite keen that THEY learn from this situation. I've no doubt that these last few days will have shaken a few of them awake.
Thus if somebody gets banned and creates a new one or moves to a different system your feeds automatically gets updated.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/now-the-trial-of-nicola-sturgeon-begins
- Rwanda - hacking people to death with machetes
- Germany '33-'39 - supporting the overthrow of democracy by a violent dictator
- Capital punishment supporters in the UK - asking to vote for a method of punishment to be applied by the courts
As you quite sure they are equivelent?
Maybe a shock to some PBers, but strangely the Republican Party is NOT rallying around their Fearless Leader and his fellow "Patriots" in the wake of the Trumpsky Putsch.
From Politico.com
Election gambit blows up on Hawley and Cruz
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/09/hawley-cruz-2024-capitol-riots-456671
"Hawley’s political patron, former Sen. John Danforth (R-Mo.), turned on him, calling his support the 'biggest mistake I’ve ever made.' His top donor, David Humphreys, said he should be censured."
McCarthy and Scalise face internal dissension after Capitol riot
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/09/mccarthy-scalise-backlash-capitol-riot-456777
"Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-Texas), a Navy SEAL who was wounded in Afghanistan, told the Houston Chronicle: 'All of the members who called for everyone to come and fight and make their last stand, all of those members were scattered like cowards while the Capitol Police had to do the fighting.'"
I do think though, like others have said here, that the concerns of many of his supporters have to be addressed and that they won't be, which will lead to the same cycle in 2024, only with a much more effective proponent.
Dear Mr. Chief Justice Roberts,
You must be VERY proud of your protege and former clerk, Josh Hawley who is currently US Senator from Missouri. Who of course attained his position, as well as his previous post as Attorney General of the State of Missouri, in part because of YOUR mentoring and credentialing.
Not every law clerk goes on to be state AG and US Senator. OR has "blood on his hands" for aiding and abetting an attack on the US Capitol and Congress aimed at overthrowing the Constitution.
Yes, you must be VERY proud indeed!
Perhaps you MAY which to reflect on your own JUDGEMENT - or rather lack thereof - in nursing such a viper to YOUR bosom. And linking your name to his for all eternity.
Reflect - and repent! Unlike your protege, who is totally unrepentant, and is now working overtime blaming others for his own actions, and seeking sympathy for himself.
America will NOT forget the Trump Putsch, nor the role played by your protege. Or your role in his political advancement.
Most sincerely,
PS - Please give my regards to Justice Thomas's missus, she's another fine "Patriot" in the Trump-Hawley mode.
So he hung around as other contenders were taken out and people forgot about how badly he got smashed.
You fight fascism in your own way, and good luck to you. Personally I think it's ok to be honest about the failings of people even if they happen to be large in number.
A few of you have had no problem telling me you think I'm wrong, which is fine. Any real difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying?
I’ll dig up the references if you want.
There is more than economic hardship caused by globalisation though, which is a sense of unfairness. Victims have played by the rules: they worked hard at school, played on the football, swim or cheerleading teams, passed their SATs and went to college. They played by the rules and still got screwed over when their jobs were outsourced by globalisation or automation, and those who kept their jobs have seen their wages stagnate and fall in real terms. Life's unfair.
And those cheap imports to compensate for falling wages and lost jobs? Mostly very expensive owing to branding. Naive economic theory talks about commoditisation of fungible goods but while that should lead to cheap trainers, the power of the Nike Swoosh means trainers are not fungible so companies, not consumers, pocket the difference between $5 imports and $100 retail sales.
And these companies pay millions to their bosses and a damn sight less to their workers, especially since the demise of trade unions. Life's unfair. And it is the unfairness that leads to the rise of the populists.
The other day I talked about the decline here and in America of cold war politics, the period ending with Reagan and Thatcher, but on reflection that is not the right label. It is class-based politics that died.
So class-based (20th Century up to Reagan and Thatcher), then globalisation (Clinton and Blair) and then populists (Trump and Boris, and Farage too given the success of Brexit).
"QAnon conspiracy theorists, praying for years that Trump would flush Satan-worshipping pedophile elites out of Washington, tore apart any scrap of data from the video to prove that he was playing one final trick. They subjected the time stamps to numerology, thinking that there was a secret message encoded.
“In no way did Trump say he conceded. He said: transitioning to a new Admin. As in, he gonna clear this one out and bring a new one,” tweeted We The Inevitable, a conspiracy account, getting more than 3,000 retweets within the hour. The account’s followers agreed that this was surely a sign that he was getting rid of Vice President Mike Pence — now cast as a MAGA traitor after participating in the certification of Biden’s win — and that on Jan. 20, retired Gen. Michael Flynn, now a full-fledged QAnon patriot, would replace him in Trump’s second term.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/08/maga-internet-turns-on-trump-456490
Whites working in call centres overwhelmingly voted for Trump, as did whites working in supermarkets, in small businesses, on assembly lines, as firefighters etc as the exit poll data I showed you confirms.
Biden's support amongst whites came mainly from professional middle class whites ie white lawyers, white doctors, white teachers and academics etc.
The Black working class might vote Democrat, the white working class is overwhelmingly Republican
Famously, of course, the Republican Govenor of North Carolina lost his election after signing a bathroom bill - a bill authored by the GOP majority. It seems the only side obsessed are the GOP. And even then only a subset, even Kristi Noem thinks there is no political capital in pushing an anti trans agenda.
When globalisation spread I thought at the time that it would be a great leveller globally for the reasons Richard evinces - that's the main reason why China in particular has done so well -but also very bad news for people with limited expertise. Experts aren't usually adversely affected by globalisation - if you need a nuclear physicist, the cost of employing someone local is probably a trivial part of your project, though your candidates might be sniffing out jobs abroad.
In my view, it's a fundamental role of government to understand what's happening and soften the blow for those adversely affected, for example by taxing the beneficiaries and retraining the losers. The failure of centrist government in both Britain and the US has been to tinker ineffectively and let people drift downwards - it has confused moderation with not doing very much at all, which is not the same thing. The effect is to empower extremists, who say very loudly that Something Must Be Done. People who have tired of benign neglect find that pretty attractive.
Even clever people do that kind of thing.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/ronna-mcdaniel-wins-third-term-as-rnc-chairman
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/trump-aligned-tommy-hicks-jr-wins-rnc-co-chair-in-key-proxy-battle
Also, the WSJ has a poll today - 54% of Republicans consider themselves to be more of a supporter than Donald Trump vs 38% who consider themselves a supporter more of the GOP (not sure if this is behind a paywall)
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-splits-over-post-trump-path-11610147555
BECAUSE the ONLY thing he cares about his himself, first, last & always. AND he'd got enough problems himself, poor baby.
Sorry, that's an insult to all babies which I now retract!
As for the RNC, it's current stance is no wonder, as it's been stacked & stuffed full of Putinists. And is anyway just a collection of political hacks, just like the DNC. NOT truly representative of the mass of voters.
I think anyone who voted for him was stupid or asleep
What is a striking feature in all such industries is that, for all but those 5% of occasions where there was malintent, the persons whose decisions were the proximal cause of the catastrophe thought they were doing the right thing at the time of the decision. That being the case, it is not useful in investigating such incidents to stop your findings at 'human error'. It tells you nothing and does nothing to help you prevent recurrence of the problem going forward. Indeed, other studies show that most people with the same level of experience and training put in the position of the person who made the bad call would have made the same bad call.
So the only way to improve is to find the characteristics of the system that made the operator think that the wrong decision was the right one.
I take the same approach with Trump voters. It is simply unhelpful to say they made a wrong decision. It does not help us prevent a recurrence, and it does not help them, as they never thought they made a mistake, except perhaps in retrospect. What about the system made them think it was the right thing to do to vote for Trump? What can we fix in the system to prevent that same miscalculation being made by them AND OTHERS in the future? Unless we seek to answer those questions, we are doomed to repeat history, as are unsafe organizations who blame 'human error' for major accidents.
One last thought - in all my research on trust and altruism, the only conclusion I can draw is that it is easy to stick to our morals until we are in dire straits. Then all bets are off for that vast majority of the population. There are very, very few Nelson Mandelas amongst us. It is a very brave, or overly confident person, who can state with certainty that, put in exactly the same circumstances as a Trump voter from lower middle class Michigan in 2016, they would have voted differently.
Remember the trajectory of Tail-Gunner Joe . . . and wait for it.
Very happy to provide citations but I take it you'll be providing your own when you make a statement...
https://loweringthebar.net/2021/01/dear-idiots-please-keep-posting-pictures-of-you-committing-federal-crimes.html
Edit: forgot to add the link...
https://edition.cnn.com/election/2020/exit-polls/president/national-results/5
Maybe Trump will see a decline in support but the idea that we are going back to those "wonderful" Republicans like Romney is a fallacy. The agenda around Trump will stay, it may just be presented with a different face.
OK.
Because it is a pack of political hacks (just like the DNC on the other side).
The RNC today is stuffed full of Trumpskyites. They represent them that picked (and paid for) them NOT the full spectrum of the GOP.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/022652583X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
If not, do.
Think.
It.
Through.
For example, Bloody Hands Hawley will NEVER be President of the United States. Indeed, think it unlikely he will be able to win re-election, or even re-nomination, as US Senator.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1347996819972911117?s=20
Unfortunately for them, he doesn't and won't so it is time to bake some files into cakes.
later: "was stupid or asleep"
I'll settle on "was stupid, careless, or asleep".
Perhaps a combination of the above.
As it happens I think "asleep" is probably the key to it, but if you want to think that I'm just saying everyone's an idiot, I'm not too worried. I would tend towards the event-oriented judgement than the personal-qualities-oriented judgement. People do stupid things, and only sometimes because they are stupid.
I'll keep coming back to the drunk driver metaphor. I know otherwise sensible people who've done that, including my own father who was unwisely took a drive after five pints and flattened a lamppost. A stupid thing to do but not (normally) a stupid man.
57% of Missouri voters voted for Trump and he is the state Senator.
As the WSJ poll Mr Ed linked to shows most GOP voters still back Trump.
And, yup, as you can see from all the measures for and against it, and the court cases, it ranked pretty highly in what was going on in 2016.
The point was about graduates rather than income but of course the most graduates will be found amongst the richest voters with a household income over $100 000 so that just confirms the point.
By contrast amongst Latino voters for example Trump did far better with the richest voters, getting 61% of Latinos earning over $100 000 a year compared to just 29% of Latinos earning under $100 000 in household income.