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Happy New Year and a big thank you – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,126
edited January 2021 in General
imageHappy New Year and a big thank you – politicalbetting.com

On March 23rd eleven weeks away PB will be celebrating its 17th birthday making the site just about the longest lasting UK political blog.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Happy New Year!
  • BBC News - Covid: Leaders call for all London schools to stay shut
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55507001
  • Happy New Year Mike.

    Donation made, thank you for the site.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,344
    Donated. Thanks all for the site.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited January 2021
    Yup. Great site. Let's keep rolling for a while yet.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,393
    I work in intensive care. Our beds are full, and more Covid patients are arriving

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/29/christmas-patients-coronavirus-intensive-care
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,421
    I will be sure to donate as soon as I secure gainful employment once again. Thank you for continuing to provide this wonderful resource and of course, Happy New Year.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited January 2021
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.

    War is not about nationalism.

    Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.

    Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.

    You're wrong there Philip.

    Nationalism is always bad news; patriotism is good for nothing (except promulgating wars).
    Codswallop. You're projecting just because you don't like something. Nationalism is very good news much of the time.
    By ‘much of the time’ do you mean that during the C20 nationalism hadn’t mired us in a world war 90% of the time.
    Nationalism didn't mire us in world wars.
    What then caused WW1 if not nationalism?
    Bit of imperialism involved...
    Precisely.

    Imperialism is the antithesis of nationalism.
    What a ridiculous thing to say.
    How? Was Gandhi an imperialist or a nationalist?

    Nationalism led to the break-up of empires. Empires are about expanding, nationalism is about dividing. It is expanding not dividing that leads to wars and conflict.

    Was World War I was caused by expansionist empires fighting each other, or was it nationalist countries seeking to manage their own affairs independently.

    The main belligerents in World War One were the French Empire, British Empire, Russian Empire, German Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Ottoman Empire and their allies . . . do you notice a common factor amongst those? Was it imperialism or nationalism?

    Imperialism absolutely led to multiple World Wars.
    Nationalism + Power + Aggression = Imperialism.
    So Nationalism != Aggression
    So Nationalism != Imperialism

    Peaceful nationalism is a good thing. It is the aggression that makes up imperialism which is bad.
    But imperialism is fueled by nationalism, specifically the belief of the imperialist power that they are better than those they colonize.

    I'd put it as follows regarding Nationalism: It can be a good thing - a great thing even - if the cause is to achieve self-determination. All other forms are toxic.
    Nationalism doesn't involve a belief that you are superior. Some people add superiority for other reasons, eg racism, but that has nothing to do with nationalism as the ideology.

    Look at the definition of nationalism in Wikipedia, what is unreasonable about this as an ideology?

    Nationalism is an idea and movement that promotes the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people),[1] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity[2] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty).[1][3] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5] and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements.[6] It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism.[7][8][page needed] Nationalism is often combined with other ideologies such as conservatism (national conservatism) or socialism (left-wing nationalism).[2]

    The idea of self-determination and popular sovereignty is a good thing not a bad thing. The only element I'd disagree with there is ethnicity and religion - as far as I'm concerned anyone who wants to come to this country and make it their home is welcome to this nation and a part of it.
    Once a nationalist movement has achieved self-determination its job is over. Nationalism as the dominant force in a country that already has independence, particularly one which is also a power, is in practice overwhelmingly likely to assume MAGA, Front Nationale, type manifestions which is toxic. And even if outward aggression is avoided, nationalism absent a genuine independence cause will steer domestically towards insularity and stasis.
    Sort of Mr K.

    Brexit is indubitably a British nationalist project seeking self-determination. It is done now that we are in control of our own laws now once more. There is no need to have a party pursuing Brexit because we have achieved our aims already. Though while Britons have self-determination the English, Welsh, Scots and Irish do not so their nationalism can and should continue.

    However that doesn't mean an end to the need for the philosophy. If any threats to the regained self-determination arise, if people start making the argument to end self-determination, then it is reasonable to make the arguments once more in favour of self-determination. To keep it is as important as to get it.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    edited January 2021

    I work in intensive care. Our beds are full, and more Covid patients are arriving

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/29/christmas-patients-coronavirus-intensive-care

    Didn`t realise you worked in a hospital. You`re in the Midlands aren`t you? Is it the new strain from the SE?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited January 2021
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    Secession out of a non-dysfunctional state is difficult. The exception in your list is Flanders. They can get their independence from Belgium, which is dysfunctional, but it would be on a smaller territory than what they think is theirs. They would lose Brussels and the surrounding countryside.
  • HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
    You are like a Trumpist trying to reverse the Presidential election.

    Conservatives may be unionists primarily, but they are also first and foremost largely democrats.

    I don't know what will happen next if the Scots do give a majority to the SNP but I'm hopeful democracy will prevail as it did last time.

    Knowing what you stand for is important. Accepting that you have lost an election is even more important.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    There may therefore be an argument for Scotland to leave the UK to join the EU, though I would oppose it, as Scotland voted to stay in the EU, there is absolutely no argument however for Wales to leave the UK given Wales also voted to leave the EU just like England.

    Scottish independence being used by Catalonia to push for independence from Spain is one reason why Spain is unlikely to look kindly on an independent Scotland seeking to join the EU. After 2 unsuccessful independence referendums Quebec I think has resolved its situation with devomax within Canada

    I actually wonder how much time you have spent in some of these parts of the world on which you regularly pontificate.

    Have you ever been to Quebec? Have you ever been to Scotland?
    I have been to Scotland multiple times, I have not been to Quebec but 25 years after it voted by 51% to 49% to stay in Canada it has still not had another independence vote.

    Wales of course having voted to leave the EU just like England can have no complaints whatsoever about Brexit
    "...multiple times ..."

    So, ignoring for the moment the military reconnaissance trips, how well would you say you know Scotland ?

    I lived in Quebec for two years, so I can tell you that your knowledge of Quebec is .... err ... minuscule.

    It is perfectly possible to have voted Leave, yet believe that it is in the interests of an **independent** Wales to join the EU. In fact, that is close to my own position.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    edited January 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
    Spot on. Easy to see through Starmer`s motives in going for more devolution - he`s trying to get support from Scottish Tory and LD voters, not from the SNP.

    Post Covid (if ever!) I see protecting the Union as being at the top of the priority list for Johnson. He is a devolution-skeptic , hence Starmer`s new niche.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Happy New Year Mike, and all PBers.

    Let’s hope that 2021 is a better year than 2020 was for most of us!
  • To our SNP friends can I say as a conservative and very pro the union through my marriage to a Scot that I utterly reject the havering of HYUFD and hope you recognise we are not all stupid enough to not accept that indyref2 is likely in the next few years and I am happy to debate the pros and cons at the time as we will be in a very different place than on the first day we have left the EU
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    I spent time over the festive period watching the entire 26 episodes of the World at War. I had never done it previously. If you haven't, I suggest you do. It is a masterwork. It also provides some perspective. So many of the people interviewed were, like I am now, in their mid-50s. They were combatants, they were civilians, they were victims, they were perpetrators and they came from all the countries involved. I cannot imagine having to live with the weight of the memories they carried with them each and every day - the deep pain, the trauma, the suffering, the guilt. But they did; tens of millions of them. Our duty is to ensure that it never happens again; that nationalism never takes root as it did before. We must not run away from that.

    War is not about nationalism.

    Nationalism can be healthy, it typically is.

    Do not confuse nationalism with jingoism.

    You're wrong there Philip.

    Nationalism is always bad news; patriotism is good for nothing (except promulgating wars).
    Codswallop. You're projecting just because you don't like something. Nationalism is very good news much of the time.
    By ‘much of the time’ do you mean that during the C20 nationalism hadn’t mired us in a world war 90% of the time.
    Nationalism didn't mire us in world wars.
    What then caused WW1 if not nationalism?
    Bit of imperialism involved...
    Precisely.

    Imperialism is the antithesis of nationalism.
    What a ridiculous thing to say.
    How? Was Gandhi an imperialist or a nationalist?

    Nationalism led to the break-up of empires. Empires are about expanding, nationalism is about dividing. It is expanding not dividing that leads to wars and conflict.

    Was World War I was caused by expansionist empires fighting each other, or was it nationalist countries seeking to manage their own affairs independently.

    The main belligerents in World War One were the French Empire, British Empire, Russian Empire, German Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Ottoman Empire and their allies . . . do you notice a common factor amongst those? Was it imperialism or nationalism?

    Imperialism absolutely led to multiple World Wars.
    Nationalism + Power + Aggression = Imperialism.
    So Nationalism != Aggression
    So Nationalism != Imperialism

    Peaceful nationalism is a good thing. It is the aggression that makes up imperialism which is bad.
    But imperialism is fueled by nationalism, specifically the belief of the imperialist power that they are better than those they colonize.

    I'd put it as follows regarding Nationalism: It can be a good thing - a great thing even - if the cause is to achieve self-determination. All other forms are toxic.
    Nationalism doesn't involve a belief that you are superior. Some people add superiority for other reasons, eg racism, but that has nothing to do with nationalism as the ideology.

    Look at the definition of nationalism in Wikipedia, what is unreasonable about this as an ideology?

    Nationalism is an idea and movement that promotes the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people),[1] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity[2] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty).[1][3] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5] and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements.[6] It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism.[7][8][page needed] Nationalism is often combined with other ideologies such as conservatism (national conservatism) or socialism (left-wing nationalism).[2]

    The idea of self-determination and popular sovereignty is a good thing not a bad thing. The only element I'd disagree with there is ethnicity and religion - as far as I'm concerned anyone who wants to come to this country and make it their home is welcome to this nation and a part of it.
    Once a nationalist movement has achieved self-determination its job is over. Nationalism as the dominant force in a country that already has independence, particularly one which is also a power, is in practice overwhelmingly likely to assume MAGA, Front Nationale, type manifestions which is toxic. And even if outward aggression is avoided, nationalism absent a genuine independence cause will steer domestically towards insularity and stasis.
    Sort of Mr K.

    Brexit is indubitably a British nationalist project seeking self-determination. It is done now that we are in control of our own laws now once more. There is no need to have a party pursuing Brexit because we have achieved our aims already. Though while Britons have self-determination the English, Welsh, Scots and Irish do not so their nationalism can and should continue.

    However that doesn't mean an end to the need for the philosophy. If any threats to the regained self-determination arise, if people start making the argument to end self-determination, then it is reasonable to make the arguments once more in favour of self-determination. To keep it is as important as to get it.
    You know my feelings about equating Brexit with a genuine National Liberation struggle. If I felt there was any truth in that I would have voted Leave in 2016 without hesitation. Might even have joined the campaign. But I don't buy the comparison at all. Not for a second. I find it palpably false and ineffably precious.

    I also have to get off here now. I'm trying to kick the cigs after many decades of using and I need to stay mellow and super-relaxed in order to maximize my chances. Getting into a tumble with you about whether or not EU membership constituted being oppressed by a foreign power - answer being "not" - would jeopardize the project almost before it's started.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    I will be sure to donate as soon as I secure gainful employment once again. Thank you for continuing to provide this wonderful resource and of course, Happy New Year.

    Good luck with your job hunt
  • I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited January 2021
    Interesting report on the BBC from Calais saying the port wants to facilitate the movement of HGVs quickly as they have been told by hauliers that they will move their business to other ports in Belgium and Holland if delayed

    And will be donating shortly
  • HYUFD said:

    even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Wake up grandad, next year is this year.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    Ironically Brexit proves we were sovereign all along. Much easier to trigger article 50 than to amend the trade deal and now we have no vote on EU policies were going to follow. One massive 🤷‍♀️.

  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    EHIC: EHICs issued before the end of 2020 will be valid until their expiry date. So don`t destroy them.

    I renewed my family`s cards four weeks ago (despite wife saying this was pointless). I have the new cards and it turns out they will be valid until the end of 2025. Result.
  • Does someone please have a copy of the Pfizer chart that shows the almost flat-line stop in cases in the vaccine group as compared to the control group from day 10 onwards please?

    I would like to show it to a friend who is skeptical about the vaccine if there's only one dose.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    I don't think it will. But I agree they have to act quickly. Their case is unarguable. The nonsense on the last thread comparing Scottish Nationalism with English Nationalism doesn't hold water. The Scots have been disenfranchised for generations and now against their will have had their membership of the EU removed.

    There will be some who share the ugly nationalism of the Duncan Smiths but a better comparison for vast majority is the Palestinians. To all intents and purposes disenfranchised and under the thumb of the Israelis. They have no rights other than those granted to them.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    There may therefore be an argument for Scotland to leave the UK to join the EU, though I would oppose it, as Scotland voted to stay in the EU, there is absolutely no argument however for Wales to leave the UK given Wales also voted to leave the EU just like England.

    Scottish independence being used by Catalonia to push for independence from Spain is one reason why Spain is unlikely to look kindly on an independent Scotland seeking to join the EU. After 2 unsuccessful independence referendums Quebec I think has resolved its situation with devomax within Canada

    I actually wonder how much time you have spent in some of these parts of the world on which you regularly pontificate.

    Have you ever been to Quebec? Have you ever been to Scotland?
    I have been to Scotland multiple times, I have not been to Quebec but 25 years after it voted by 51% to 49% to stay in Canada it has still not had another independence vote.

    Wales of course having voted to leave the EU just like England can have no complaints whatsoever about Brexit
    "...multiple times ..."

    So, ignoring for the moment the military reconnaissance trips, how well would you say you know Scotland ?

    I lived in Quebec for two years, so I can tell you that your knowledge of Quebec is .... err ... minuscule.

    It is perfectly possible to have voted Leave, yet believe that it is in the interests of an **independent** Wales to join the EU. In fact, that is close to my own position.
    I lived in Scotland, married a Scot, have been to Quebec and live in Wales.

    I can say without hesitation that HYUFD is full of hot air or to use a good Scottish word 'havering'
  • Jonathan said:

    Ironically Brexit proves we were sovereign all along. Much easier to trigger article 50 than to amend the trade deal and now we have no vote on EU policies were going to follow. One massive 🤷‍♀️.

    Not true. Reviews to amend the trade deal if need be are scheduled for every five years, plus if we desire to we can unilaterally trigger a 12 month option to end the trade deal (thus beginning formal negotiations on a successor if wanted) every bit as easy as we can trigger the 2 year article 50.

    Considering this deal was negotiated in 11 months there's no reason a 12 month period should be insufficient next time. Rengotiating a successor trade deal would be much easier than negotiating Brexit.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    I don't think it will. But I agree they have to act quickly. Their case is unarguable. The nonsense on the last thread comparing Scottish Nationalism with English Nationalism doesn't hold water. The Scots have been disenfranchised for generations and now against their will have had their membership of the EU removed.

    There will be some who share the ugly nationalism of the Duncan Smiths but a better comparison for vast majority is the Palestinians. To all intents and purposes disenfranchised and under the thumb of the Israelis. They have no rights other than those granted to them.
    Surely it is the Welsh who are the Palestinians.

    It is formerly Welsh territory on which England sits.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    edited January 2021

    Does someone please have a copy of the Pfizer chart that shows the almost flat-line stop in cases in the vaccine group as compared to the control group from day 10 onwards please?

    I would like to show it to a friend who is skeptical about the vaccine if there's only one dose.

    The link

    https://wp.technologyreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/PFIZER_CHART_NEW.png?w=1800

    The chart itself

    image
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Stocky said:

    I work in intensive care. Our beds are full, and more Covid patients are arriving

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/29/christmas-patients-coronavirus-intensive-care

    Didn`t realise you worked in a hospital. You`re in the Midlands aren`t you? Is it the new strain from the SE?
    He is quoting the first line of the article - I urge everyone to read it because its fecking harrowing
  • Interesting report on the BBC from Calais saying the port wants to facilitate the movement of HGVs quickly as they have been told by hauliers that they will move their business to other ports in Belgium and Holland if delayed

    And will be donating shortly

    Interesting report from Sky earlier saying a ferry with 36 HGVs on it had landed and 33 HGVs got a green light (just drive off as normal) while 3 got an amber light (a check needed). So over 90% just waved through as normal.

    No reason to cause a tailback in that, even when busier. Getting the ferries across will take longer than getting <10% of vehicles to undergo quick checks.
  • Does someone please have a copy of the Pfizer chart that shows the almost flat-line stop in cases in the vaccine group as compared to the control group from day 10 onwards please?

    I would like to show it to a friend who is skeptical about the vaccine if there's only one dose.

    The link

    https://wp.technologyreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/PFIZER_CHART_NEW.png?w=1800

    The chart itself

    [snip]
    Thank you!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,112

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
    You are like a Trumpist trying to reverse the Presidential election.

    Conservatives may be unionists primarily, but they are also first and foremost largely democrats.

    I don't know what will happen next if the Scots do give a majority to the SNP but I'm hopeful democracy will prevail as it did last time.

    Knowing what you stand for is important. Accepting that you have lost an election is even more important.
    We are the 'Conservative and Unionist Party' the clue is in the title, Sturgeon will not be getting any indyref2 from us no matter how hard she bleats, we respect the once in a generation 2014 vote.

  • Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    There may therefore be an argument for Scotland to leave the UK to join the EU, though I would oppose it, as Scotland voted to stay in the EU, there is absolutely no argument however for Wales to leave the UK given Wales also voted to leave the EU just like England.

    Scottish independence being used by Catalonia to push for independence from Spain is one reason why Spain is unlikely to look kindly on an independent Scotland seeking to join the EU. After 2 unsuccessful independence referendums Quebec I think has resolved its situation with devomax within Canada

    I actually wonder how much time you have spent in some of these parts of the world on which you regularly pontificate.

    Have you ever been to Quebec? Have you ever been to Scotland?
    I have been to Scotland multiple times, I have not been to Quebec but 25 years after it voted by 51% to 49% to stay in Canada it has still not had another independence vote.

    Wales of course having voted to leave the EU just like England can have no complaints whatsoever about Brexit
    "...multiple times ..."

    So, ignoring for the moment the military reconnaissance trips, how well would you say you know Scotland ?

    I lived in Quebec for two years, so I can tell you that your knowledge of Quebec is .... err ... minuscule.

    It is perfectly possible to have voted Leave, yet believe that it is in the interests of an **independent** Wales to join the EU. In fact, that is close to my own position.
    Wales voted to Leave the EU just like England, so it is you now ignoring the wishes of Welsh voters not me
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,112
    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
    It is basically silent, and the most comfortable spin bike I've ever used. But the real key is the subscription - motivated me very well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    I don't think it will. But I agree they have to act quickly. Their case is unarguable. The nonsense on the last thread comparing Scottish Nationalism with English Nationalism doesn't hold water. The Scots have been disenfranchised for generations and now against their will have had their membership of the EU removed.

    There will be some who share the ugly nationalism of the Duncan Smiths but a better comparison for vast majority is the Palestinians. To all intents and purposes disenfranchised and under the thumb of the Israelis. They have no rights other than those granted to them.
    Palestinians have a legislative council as Scots have their own Parliament
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,420
    edited January 2021
    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    BikeERG + Zwift for me....i am like johnny5...data...more data....
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    There may therefore be an argument for Scotland to leave the UK to join the EU, though I would oppose it, as Scotland voted to stay in the EU, there is absolutely no argument however for Wales to leave the UK given Wales also voted to leave the EU just like England.

    Scottish independence being used by Catalonia to push for independence from Spain is one reason why Spain is unlikely to look kindly on an independent Scotland seeking to join the EU. After 2 unsuccessful independence referendums Quebec I think has resolved its situation with devomax within Canada

    I actually wonder how much time you have spent in some of these parts of the world on which you regularly pontificate.

    Have you ever been to Quebec? Have you ever been to Scotland?
    I have been to Scotland multiple times, I have not been to Quebec but 25 years after it voted by 51% to 49% to stay in Canada it has still not had another independence vote.

    Wales of course having voted to leave the EU just like England can have no complaints whatsoever about Brexit
    "...multiple times ..."

    So, ignoring for the moment the military reconnaissance trips, how well would you say you know Scotland ?

    I lived in Quebec for two years, so I can tell you that your knowledge of Quebec is .... err ... minuscule.

    It is perfectly possible to have voted Leave, yet believe that it is in the interests of an **independent** Wales to join the EU. In fact, that is close to my own position.
    Wales voted to Leave the EU just like England, so it is you now ignoring the wishes of Welsh voters not me
    So, ignoring for the moment the military reconnaissance trips, how well would you say you know Scotland ?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,112
    And happy new year everyone!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
    You are like a Trumpist trying to reverse the Presidential election.

    Conservatives may be unionists primarily, but they are also first and foremost largely democrats.

    I don't know what will happen next if the Scots do give a majority to the SNP but I'm hopeful democracy will prevail as it did last time.

    Knowing what you stand for is important. Accepting that you have lost an election is even more important.
    We are the 'Conservative and Unionist Party' the clue is in the title, Sturgeon will not be getting any indyref2 from us no matter how hard she bleats, we respect the once in a generation 2014 vote.

    Since the party stopped being conservative some time ago, it’s not much of a stretch to see it lose the unionist part too. There are certainly those in the party who would not shed a tear.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    edited January 2021

    Does someone please have a copy of the Pfizer chart that shows the almost flat-line stop in cases in the vaccine group as compared to the control group from day 10 onwards please?

    I would like to show it to a friend who is skeptical about the vaccine if there's only one dose.

    The link

    https://wp.technologyreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/PFIZER_CHART_NEW.png?w=1800

    The chart itself

    [snip]
    Thank you!
    All I did was put a bunch of keywords in a google search - "pfizer graph vaccine one dose"

    It is a startling clear piece of evidence. Given the size of the trial there is not much room for questioning it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021
    The news reporters are a bit early, because most of the hauliers aren't predicting any major disruption until at least Jan 4.

    There's just not that many people at the ports, relative to usual. It's not only the New Year break , but many people transporting goods are simply staying away for a while after the disruption 10 days back. I've also heard a few reports from people of french-derived food goods already being harder to find in the shops - whether that will continue when people are adjusted to the new regime, I don't know.

    This apparent quiet at the very beginning could be very good for the government in setting an impression, though.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited January 2021

    To our SNP friends can I say as a conservative and very pro the union through my marriage to a Scot that I utterly reject the havering of HYUFD and hope you recognise we are not all stupid enough to not accept that indyref2 is likely in the next few years and I am happy to debate the pros and cons at the time as we will be in a very different place than on the first day we have left the EU

    BigG You also regularly advocate toppling our great PM and party leader Boris, Boris is staying and Boris will not grant indyref2
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
    You are like a Trumpist trying to reverse the Presidential election.

    Conservatives may be unionists primarily, but they are also first and foremost largely democrats.

    I don't know what will happen next if the Scots do give a majority to the SNP but I'm hopeful democracy will prevail as it did last time.

    Knowing what you stand for is important. Accepting that you have lost an election is even more important.
    We are the 'Conservative and Unionist Party' the clue is in the title, Sturgeon will not be getting any indyref2 from us no matter how hard she bleats, we respect the once in a generation 2014 vote.

    Yes we are the Conservative and Unionist Party which is why if we win the Scottish election then there will be no further referendum. A vote for Scottish Tories is a vote against a referendum.

    If we lose the election though then democracy means the election winners decide what happens next. That is democracy.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
    You are like a Trumpist trying to reverse the Presidential election.

    Conservatives may be unionists primarily, but they are also first and foremost largely democrats.

    I don't know what will happen next if the Scots do give a majority to the SNP but I'm hopeful democracy will prevail as it did last time.

    Knowing what you stand for is important. Accepting that you have lost an election is even more important.
    We are the 'Conservative and Unionist Party' the clue is in the title, Sturgeon will not be getting any indyref2 from us no matter how hard she bleats, we respect the once in a generation 2014 vote.

    You do not own the party of which we are both members and I am the democrat and sane one, you are making independence a near certainty
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
    A wildly inaccurate power meter. It had my FTP off by 50% when I tried one!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,112

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
    You are like a Trumpist trying to reverse the Presidential election.

    Conservatives may be unionists primarily, but they are also first and foremost largely democrats.

    I don't know what will happen next if the Scots do give a majority to the SNP but I'm hopeful democracy will prevail as it did last time.

    Knowing what you stand for is important. Accepting that you have lost an election is even more important.
    We are the 'Conservative and Unionist Party' the clue is in the title, Sturgeon will not be getting any indyref2 from us no matter how hard she bleats, we respect the once in a generation 2014 vote.

    Yes we are the Conservative and Unionist Party which is why if we win the Scottish election then there will be no further referendum. A vote for Scottish Tories is a vote against a referendum.

    If we lose the election though then democracy means the election winners decide what happens next. That is democracy.
    The SNP running on a cause (another referendum) which is beyond their gift is like council candidates suggesting that if they were elected, they'd scrap trident. Farcical.

  • Does someone please have a copy of the Pfizer chart that shows the almost flat-line stop in cases in the vaccine group as compared to the control group from day 10 onwards please?

    I would like to show it to a friend who is skeptical about the vaccine if there's only one dose.

    The link

    https://wp.technologyreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/PFIZER_CHART_NEW.png?w=1800

    The chart itself

    [snip]
    Thank you!
    All I did was put a bunch of keywords in a google search - "pfizer graph vaccine one dose"

    It is a startling clear piece of evidence. Given the size of the trial there is not much room for questioning it.
    Indeed it is one of the most clear bits of evidence I've ever seen. My background is economics not epidemiology but there's no disputing a chart like that!
  • Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    It is stark how upset they are

    I expect when GB news comes on stream they are going to lose viewers
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
    It is basically silent, and the most comfortable spin bike I've ever used. But the real key is the subscription - motivated me very well.
    It's a bit like wine.

    The best form of fitness training is the one that work for you.

    I really would like to see a study of putting a random sample of the population into a Vitality type program.
  • BalrogBalrog Posts: 207
    I donated, but set it up as recurring donation rather than a larger single one. I have subscriptions set up to several newspapers and netfix etc but I spend more time on here than any of them so a regular payment made more sense to me.
    Happy to convert it to a larger single amount if thats better for the site.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    They do give the impression of not being happy at all, that things appear to be moving smoothly.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,685
    HYUFD said:

    To our SNP friends can I say as a conservative and very pro the union through my marriage to a Scot that I utterly reject the havering of HYUFD and hope you recognise we are not all stupid enough to not accept that indyref2 is likely in the next few years and I am happy to debate the pros and cons at the time as we will be in a very different place than on the first day we have left the EU

    BigG You also regularly advocate toppling our great PM and party leader Boris, Boris is staying and Boris will not grant indyref2
    And thus Johnson will destroy the union.
  • Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    Macron just said on tv they most certainty are our friends

    Sorry to disappoint you
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,420
    edited January 2021
    Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    You say that like the French have never played silly buggers before...its an annual event that they strike over something, from the air traffic controllers to the lorry drivers, there is always weeks where they down tools, normally to coincide with an extremely busy period like holidays.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited January 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
    You are like a Trumpist trying to reverse the Presidential election.

    Conservatives may be unionists primarily, but they are also first and foremost largely democrats.

    I don't know what will happen next if the Scots do give a majority to the SNP but I'm hopeful democracy will prevail as it did last time.

    Knowing what you stand for is important. Accepting that you have lost an election is even more important.
    We are the 'Conservative and Unionist Party' the clue is in the title, Sturgeon will not be getting any indyref2 from us no matter how hard she bleats, we respect the once in a generation 2014 vote.

    Yes we are the Conservative and Unionist Party which is why if we win the Scottish election then there will be no further referendum. A vote for Scottish Tories is a vote against a referendum.

    If we lose the election though then democracy means the election winners decide what happens next. That is democracy.
    I am a Conservative and Unionist, you having voted Labour in 2001 and BXP in May 2019 are not a committed supporter of the Conservative and Unionist Party merely a libertarian, pro Brexit swing voter who currently happens to vote Conservative.

    If the SNP fail to win a majority next year then they have no right to even ask for indyref2, however if they do win a majority Boris will stick to the once in a generation 2014 referendum as per the winning 2019 Tory majority and without Westminster consent there can be no legal indyref2
  • Mortimer said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
    You are like a Trumpist trying to reverse the Presidential election.

    Conservatives may be unionists primarily, but they are also first and foremost largely democrats.

    I don't know what will happen next if the Scots do give a majority to the SNP but I'm hopeful democracy will prevail as it did last time.

    Knowing what you stand for is important. Accepting that you have lost an election is even more important.
    We are the 'Conservative and Unionist Party' the clue is in the title, Sturgeon will not be getting any indyref2 from us no matter how hard she bleats, we respect the once in a generation 2014 vote.

    Yes we are the Conservative and Unionist Party which is why if we win the Scottish election then there will be no further referendum. A vote for Scottish Tories is a vote against a referendum.

    If we lose the election though then democracy means the election winners decide what happens next. That is democracy.
    The SNP running on a cause (another referendum) which is beyond their gift is like council candidates suggesting that if they were elected, they'd scrap trident. Farcical.

    Comparing the national government of the most powerful devolved legislature in the world to council candidates? How every dare you.

    https://twitter.com/Jackson_Carlaw/status/1344340749769388033?s=20
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021

    Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    You say that like the French have never played silly buggers before...its an annual event that they strike over something, from the air traffic controllers to the lorry drivers, there is always weeks where they down tools.
    Well , from their point of view , it's got the average Frenchman better pay and conditions than the average Briton.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,830
    With the blue steel gaze of OGH I'm not sure if he is trying to hypnotise me, terrify me or reassure me.

    Such are the difficulties of judging the intentions and wishes of those above.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    That will be, as happens pretty much every summer, the fault of the French lorry drivers.

    Sky were desparate for there to be big queues today because of the new customs arrangements, and really aren’t happy that things are all moving smoothly at Dover.
  • Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
    It is basically silent, and the most comfortable spin bike I've ever used. But the real key is the subscription - motivated me very well.
    It's a bit like wine.

    The best form of fitness training is the one that work for you.
    In that case I'm on the Eldorado fitness regime :(
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    To our SNP friends can I say as a conservative and very pro the union through my marriage to a Scot that I utterly reject the havering of HYUFD and hope you recognise we are not all stupid enough to not accept that indyref2 is likely in the next few years and I am happy to debate the pros and cons at the time as we will be in a very different place than on the first day we have left the EU

    BigG You also regularly advocate toppling our great PM and party leader Boris, Boris is staying and Boris will not grant indyref2
    And thus Johnson will destroy the union.
    No that would be granting an indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and Yes led most of the polls, if there is no legal indyref there is no risk of the Union ending
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    You say that like the French have never played silly buggers before...its an annual event that they strike over something, from the air traffic controllers to the lorry drivers, there is always weeks where they down tools, normally to coincide with an extremely busy period like holidays.
    Woger is worried the French will associate him with the remarks his best buddy Boris Becker made at that cafe.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Here, straight out of the blocks, is what looks suspiciously like a genuine T-BOB, a Tangible Benefit Of Brexit. Nothing to do with fish or "buccaneering" either.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55502252

    I predict that 10 years from now it still tops the list.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,420
    edited January 2021
    True test of these new arrangements...if my order from NI arrives tomorrow....the company promised 2 day delivery time!
  • Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    That will be, as happens pretty much every summer, the fault of the French lorry drivers.

    Sky were desparate for there to be big queues today because of the new customs arrangements, and really aren’t happy that things are all moving smoothly at Dover.
    If the system works as designed and if >90% of HGVs are waived through as Sky reported before with the first ferry then I see no reason why queues will need to become a concern. The red tape has been designed to be filled in before getting to the border so that vehicles can be just waived through.

    People may be unhappy about the red tape but the idea that the border is going to collapse hopefully will just be another part of Project Fear.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    In Johnson's Britain, even the delays are delayed.
  • Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    You say that like the French have never played silly buggers before...its an annual event that they strike over something, from the air traffic controllers to the lorry drivers, there is always weeks where they down tools.
    Well , from their point of view , it's got the average Frenchman better pay and conditions than the average Briton.
    And with higher productivity and lower weekly hours than the UK. Where did it all go wrong for the Frenchies?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,420
    edited January 2021

    Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    You say that like the French have never played silly buggers before...its an annual event that they strike over something, from the air traffic controllers to the lorry drivers, there is always weeks where they down tools.
    Well , from their point of view , it's got the average Frenchman better pay and conditions than the average Briton.
    And with higher productivity and lower weekly hours than the UK. Where did it all go wrong for the Frenchies?
    Robert debunked productivity as a metric ages ago. The larger your public sector, the higher your productivity number.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851

    FPT

    I must admit I was quite sad as I retired to bed last night.

    I "courted" my (also NZ-born) wife when I was living in London and she in Paris.
    For maybe two years in the mid 2000s I would take the Eurostar to visit her each month (and she likewise, but in reverse).

    We fell in love in Shoreditch and Charing Cross Road. But also on Rue Montorgeuil and the Parc Monceau.
    Together, as young New Zealanders, we developed our love of European culture, food, history and landscape on successive holidays and through the steady accumulation of friends from every corner of the continent.

    We have been to the Opera on a snowy night in Vienna. But also, we have stood on the basalt in Staffa, getting damp in the sea spray. Got lost in the Schwarzvald and sailed out of Stockholm. But also, spent long summer days walking - and drinking - in the fields and downs of Sussex, Hampshire and Kent.

    Luckily we settled in the effective capital of Europe - London - where no compromise was necessary between the pursuit of career and the easy embrace of all that. Not entirely consciously, we lived a happy ecumenicalism - at "home" as New Zealanders, as British, and European. One day, perhaps, we hoped to retire at least part of the time to France.

    Brexiters have been at pains throughout to maintain that "the EU is not Europe" which of course is true from a legal perspective, but hardly speaks to the heart. Regardless, much Brexit discourse seems angrily or sneeringly both anti-EU *and* anti-European - dismissive of foreign perspectives and indeed of people like me who found something quite wonderful in an Anglo-European existence.

    I thought of my memories, and feelings, and considered the millions of people who must have felt similar to me. And of the many who won't quite have the same chance to feel that way.

    I did not wait up for the actual countdown.

    A very good post. Unfortunately we have 17,000,000 people in this country who are either racists or soulless and of course many who are both.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
    A wildly inaccurate power meter. It had my FTP off by 50% when I tried one!
    I bought a reasonably priced exercise bike in the Autumn. It says I only burn 15 calories per km - is that right?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    Is Sturgeon being serioua here or is she just playing up to her crowd?

    As independent Ireland takes up her seat on the @UN Security Council today, not (yet) independent Scotland is taken out of the EU against our will. Time to put ourselves in the driving seat of our own future, Scotland #indyref2
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    There may therefore be an argument for Scotland to leave the UK to join the EU, though I would oppose it, as Scotland voted to stay in the EU, there is absolutely no argument however for Wales to leave the UK given Wales also voted to leave the EU just like England.

    Scottish independence being used by Catalonia to push for independence from Spain is one reason why Spain is unlikely to look kindly on an independent Scotland seeking to join the EU. After 2 unsuccessful independence referendums Quebec I think has resolved its situation with devomax within Canada

    I actually wonder how much time you have spent in some of these parts of the world on which you regularly pontificate.

    Have you ever been to Quebec? Have you ever been to Scotland?
    I have been to Scotland multiple times, I have not been to Quebec but 25 years after it voted by 51% to 49% to stay in Canada it has still not had another independence vote.

    Wales of course having voted to leave the EU just like England can have no complaints whatsoever about Brexit
    "...multiple times ..."

    So, ignoring for the moment the military reconnaissance trips, how well would you say you know Scotland ?

    I lived in Quebec for two years, so I can tell you that your knowledge of Quebec is .... err ... minuscule.

    It is perfectly possible to have voted Leave, yet believe that it is in the interests of an **independent** Wales to join the EU. In fact, that is close to my own position.
    I lived in Scotland, married a Scot, have been to Quebec and live in Wales.

    I can say without hesitation that HYUFD is full of hot air or to use a good Scottish word 'havering'
    I thought that Havering in Essex was around Romford. Seems it’s around Epping instead.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
    A wildly inaccurate power meter. It had my FTP off by 50% when I tried one!
    I bought a reasonably priced exercise bike in the Autumn. It says I only burn 15 calories per km - is that right?
    Depends on your weight, how much power your are laying down, etc.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    You say that like the French have never played silly buggers before...its an annual event that they strike over something, from the air traffic controllers to the lorry drivers, there is always weeks where they down tools.
    Well , from their point of view , it's got the average Frenchman better pay and conditions than the average Briton.
    And with higher productivity and lower weekly hours than the UK. Where did it all go wrong for the Frenchies?
    Averages aren't all.

    The way it work is this

    - A substantial chunk of french people do much better than average. They are basically un-fireable at work, etc etc. A good friend got a vast 4 bed apartment in a very fashionable part of Paris for next to no rent. As "social housing". His family knew all the right people. He was an oil company executive.
    - A bigger chunk, who aren't a part of the "thing" are much worse off than in the UK. This is why London is full of middle class French people. They like those job thingies.
    - At the bottom you have the people of The Districts. Who are in the shit up to their noses.
  • Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    You say that like the French have never played silly buggers before...its an annual event that they strike over something, from the air traffic controllers to the lorry drivers, there is always weeks where they down tools.
    Well , from their point of view , it's got the average Frenchman better pay and conditions than the average Briton.
    And with higher productivity and lower weekly hours than the UK. Where did it all go wrong for the Frenchies?
    Robert debunked productivity as a metric ages ago. The larger your public sector, the higher your productivity number.
    The USA has a large public sector? Who knew?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
    A wildly inaccurate power meter. It had my FTP off by 50% when I tried one!
    I bought a reasonably priced exercise bike in the Autumn. It says I only burn 15 calories per km - is that right?
    Depends on your weight, how much power your are laying down, etc.
    Probably not far off.

    When running a rule of thumb is you burn 1calorie for every 1kg of weight every 1km.

    So weighing 75kg, I burn approx. 750calories running 10km.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226

    Is Sturgeon being serioua here or is she just playing up to her crowd?

    As independent Ireland takes up her seat on the @UN Security Council today, not (yet) independent Scotland is taken out of the EU against our will. Time to put ourselves in the driving seat of our own future, Scotland #indyref2

    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1344991239742103554?s=20
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited January 2021
    Silly season on here about the lack of truck queues. There are no queues because no-one is doing any trading. The worry would be if there are still no queues in a month's time.

    Border queues will be a permanent a feature of Brexit and we will have to get used to them, as we will for all the many downsides and no upsides of our decision to leave the European Union. Eventually truckers will come back at a much higher cost to cover their waiting time and extra red tape. Importers will pass the costs on to consumers as higher prices. A chunk of exporters will find their business is no longer viable - they don't have the margin to eat the extra cost and customers are happy to buy from EU suppliers instead.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    There may therefore be an argument for Scotland to leave the UK to join the EU, though I would oppose it, as Scotland voted to stay in the EU, there is absolutely no argument however for Wales to leave the UK given Wales also voted to leave the EU just like England.

    Scottish independence being used by Catalonia to push for independence from Spain is one reason why Spain is unlikely to look kindly on an independent Scotland seeking to join the EU. After 2 unsuccessful independence referendums Quebec I think has resolved its situation with devomax within Canada

    I actually wonder how much time you have spent in some of these parts of the world on which you regularly pontificate.

    Have you ever been to Quebec? Have you ever been to Scotland?
    I have been to Scotland multiple times, I have not been to Quebec but 25 years after it voted by 51% to 49% to stay in Canada it has still not had another independence vote.

    Wales of course having voted to leave the EU just like England can have no complaints whatsoever about Brexit
    "...multiple times ..."

    So, ignoring for the moment the military reconnaissance trips, how well would you say you know Scotland ?

    I lived in Quebec for two years, so I can tell you that your knowledge of Quebec is .... err ... minuscule.

    It is perfectly possible to have voted Leave, yet believe that it is in the interests of an **independent** Wales to join the EU. In fact, that is close to my own position.
    I lived in Scotland, married a Scot, have been to Quebec and live in Wales.

    I can say without hesitation that HYUFD is full of hot air or to use a good Scottish word 'havering'
    Nevertheless you do seem to be in some detail as to the extent to which HY represents what the once conservative party has now become.

    Anna Soubry was interviewed on R4 yesterday and she suggested it would be decades before the pendulum in the Tory party swung back toward the business-friendly, outward looking party she had joined when she was young.
  • Is Sturgeon being serioua here or is she just playing up to her crowd?

    As independent Ireland takes up her seat on the @UN Security Council today, not (yet) independent Scotland is taken out of the EU against our will. Time to put ourselves in the driving seat of our own future, Scotland #indyref2

    She'll be playing to those 2014 No voters in that focus group that you were so entranced with.
  • Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    You say that like the French have never played silly buggers before...its an annual event that they strike over something, from the air traffic controllers to the lorry drivers, there is always weeks where they down tools.
    Well , from their point of view , it's got the average Frenchman better pay and conditions than the average Briton.
    And with higher productivity and lower weekly hours than the UK. Where did it all go wrong for the Frenchies?
    Averages aren't all.

    The way it work is this

    - A substantial chunk of french people do much better than average. They are basically un-fireable at work, etc etc. A good friend got a vast 4 bed apartment in a very fashionable part of Paris for next to no rent. As "social housing". His family knew all the right people. He was an oil company executive.
    - A bigger chunk, who aren't a part of the "thing" are much worse off than in the UK. This is why London is full of middle class French people. They like those job thingies.
    - At the bottom you have the people of The Districts. Who are in the shit up to their noses.
    Absolutely. For a country that like to pretend to itself that it believes in egalite they have some way to go.

    Roger only likes to hang around with the well to do and turns his nose up at anyone else, which is why he loves it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
    A wildly inaccurate power meter. It had my FTP off by 50% when I tried one!
    I bought a reasonably priced exercise bike in the Autumn. It says I only burn 15 calories per km - is that right?
    Depends on your weight, how much power your are laying down, etc.
    Probably not far off.

    When running a rule of thumb is you burn 1calorie for every 1kg of weight every 1km.

    So weighing 75kg, I burn approx. 750calories running 10km.
    The reason bikes became popular was that they were a cheap and simple means of improving the efficiency of human locomotion.

    The effort to go x kilometres on a bike is many, many times less than the effort to run that distance.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    BBC News - Covid: Leaders call for all London schools to stay shut
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55507001

    The recent announcement on schools was the first time that London has been subdivided, and the allocation of Boroughs appears to be at least partly political - for example delaying opening in Tory Kensington with one of the lowest virus rates in London yet forcing Labour Greenwich - which just recently challenged the government approach - to re-open, despite the declared crisis at its local NHS hospital. These aren’t the decisions of a mature and rational government.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Sky News reporting sounds very disappointed no queues at the ports.

    The problem isn't queues today it's when the French lorry drivers decide they have a problem with their English counterparts. The French have no reason to temper their free-wheeling methods of getting their own way. They aren't our friends anymore!
    That will be, as happens pretty much every summer, the fault of the French lorry drivers.

    Sky were desparate for there to be big queues today because of the new customs arrangements, and really aren’t happy that things are all moving smoothly at Dover.
    If the system works as designed and if >90% of HGVs are waived through as Sky reported before with the first ferry then I see no reason why queues will need to become a concern. The red tape has been designed to be filled in before getting to the border so that vehicles can be just waived through.

    People may be unhappy about the red tape but the idea that the border is going to collapse hopefully will just be another part of Project Fear.
    While the new system does introduce a little bit of friction, for most companies the paperwork is simply submitting their cargo manifest for each truck to the customs post - which will be one button on their cargo management system. It would have been worse if their were tarrifs to be paid, but anyone who works with non-EU imports would already have that functionality in their systems anyway.

    They used to stop a few lorries under the old system anyway, looking for incorrect loads, VAT scams, overweight loads, contraband, illegal aliens and more.

    Of course, now the politics is out of the way, it’s in everyone’s interest to keep the ports moving as quickly and seamlessly as possible. As someone mentioned above, if the French want to play silly buggers the lorries will over time move through Belgium or the Netherlands instead.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
    A wildly inaccurate power meter. It had my FTP off by 50% when I tried one!
    I bought a reasonably priced exercise bike in the Autumn. It says I only burn 15 calories per km - is that right?
    Depends on your weight, how much power your are laying down, etc.
    Probably not far off.

    When running a rule of thumb is you burn 1calorie for every 1kg of weight every 1km.

    So weighing 75kg, I burn approx. 750calories running 10km.
    The reason bikes became popular was that they were a cheap and simple means of improving the efficiency of human locomotion.

    The effort to go x kilometres on a bike is many, many times less than the effort to run that distance.
    Taking the bus is easier still.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027

    Is Sturgeon being serioua here or is she just playing up to her crowd?

    As independent Ireland takes up her seat on the @UN Security Council today, not (yet) independent Scotland is taken out of the EU against our will. Time to put ourselves in the driving seat of our own future, Scotland #indyref2

    She'll be playing to those 2014 No voters in that focus group that you were so entranced with.
    You seem to have a good memory..

    I just recalled a focus group which I posted as a link, predominately around some of those No voters being unaware of the implications of currency. I linked it once in fact - so what's the problem?

    Aren't you meant to be winning over No voters?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    An easy target for Owen here - Covid denial - but he does the necessary:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/01/false-hope-pandemic-dangerous-disinformation
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214
    IanB2 said:

    BBC News - Covid: Leaders call for all London schools to stay shut
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55507001

    The recent announcement on schools was the first time that London has been subdivided, and the allocation of Boroughs appears to be at least partly political - for example delaying opening in Tory Kensington with one of the lowest virus rates in London yet forcing Labour Greenwich - which just recently challenged the government approach - to re-open, despite the declared crisis at its local NHS hospital. These aren’t the decisions of a mature and rational government.
    We need to delay all schools going back.
    Full national lockdown until we at least have case numbers under control.

    We previously locked down when we had lower case rates and no imminent vaccine.
    Now we've got higher rates, a vaccine around the corner and a more transmissible strain.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,830
    edited January 2021
    Roger said:

    FPT

    I must admit I was quite sad as I retired to bed last night.

    I "courted" my (also NZ-born) wife when I was living in London and she in Paris.
    For maybe two years in the mid 2000s I would take the Eurostar to visit her each month (and she likewise, but in reverse).

    We fell in love in Shoreditch and Charing Cross Road. But also on Rue Montorgeuil and the Parc Monceau.
    Together, as young New Zealanders, we developed our love of European culture, food, history and landscape on successive holidays and through the steady accumulation of friends from every corner of the continent.

    We have been to the Opera on a snowy night in Vienna. But also, we have stood on the basalt in Staffa, getting damp in the sea spray. Got lost in the Schwarzvald and sailed out of Stockholm. But also, spent long summer days walking - and drinking - in the fields and downs of Sussex, Hampshire and Kent.

    Luckily we settled in the effective capital of Europe - London - where no compromise was necessary between the pursuit of career and the easy embrace of all that. Not entirely consciously, we lived a happy ecumenicalism - at "home" as New Zealanders, as British, and European. One day, perhaps, we hoped to retire at least part of the time to France.

    Brexiters have been at pains throughout to maintain that "the EU is not Europe" which of course is true from a legal perspective, but hardly speaks to the heart. Regardless, much Brexit discourse seems angrily or sneeringly both anti-EU *and* anti-European - dismissive of foreign perspectives and indeed of people like me who found something quite wonderful in an Anglo-European existence.

    I thought of my memories, and feelings, and considered the millions of people who must have felt similar to me. And of the many who won't quite have the same chance to feel that way.

    I did not wait up for the actual countdown.

    A very good post. Unfortunately we have 17,000,000 people in this country who are either racists or soulless and of course many who are both.
    I'm sure it makes you feel better about yourself to think that. And so humble too.
  • To our SNP friends can I say as a conservative and very pro the union through my marriage to a Scot that I utterly reject the havering of HYUFD and hope you recognise we are not all stupid enough to not accept that indyref2 is likely in the next few years and I am happy to debate the pros and cons at the time as we will be in a very different place than on the first day we have left the EU

    All the talk of an indyref in the neat future seems to be ignoring the critical factor; referendums are binary, you win or lose. A 50.01% result is just as good as 99%.

    There's nothing to be gained by Boris granting a referenum that, going by the polling numbers, he would narrowly lose. Refusing to grant section 30 powers again may increase support for independece, but if it does he's no worse off than now. But is also gives time for events to rescue the union - widending splits in the indy movement, the Salmond case bringing down Sturgeon, etc.

    You don't have to HYUFD to see logic in just saying no.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,982
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scotland's problem (apart from the football team) is that secessionist movements tend to be fissile over the long term. The steam has gone out of many seperatist movements (Vlaams, Quebec, Catalonia, Basque) due to splits and internal conflict. You can see signs of this in the SNP already.

    So it has to be now. A general strike, or even the threat of it, will be enough to make Le Bossu fold on #indyref2.

    No it wouldn't, Boris has a majority of 80 but only 6 Scottish Tory MPs, he can afford to ignore Sturgeon and Blackford even if the SNP win a majority next year.

    Starmer however if he comes to power in 2024 after a hung parliament and reliant on support from SNP MPs is another matter
    You are like a Trumpist trying to reverse the Presidential election.

    Conservatives may be unionists primarily, but they are also first and foremost largely democrats.

    I don't know what will happen next if the Scots do give a majority to the SNP but I'm hopeful democracy will prevail as it did last time.

    Knowing what you stand for is important. Accepting that you have lost an election is even more important.
    We are the 'Conservative and Unionist Party' the clue is in the title, Sturgeon will not be getting any indyref2 from us no matter how hard she bleats, we respect the once in a generation 2014 vote.

    England has “catch’d Scotland and we will bind her fast”.

    You are John Smith (1656–1723) and I claim my 10 Guineas (in gold, please)
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    I've been out for my first run of the year. Best described as short, slow and sore :(

    Well done! My NYR is to use the Peloton every day - even if just for weights/stretching.

    It was by far my best investment of last year. Kept me sane and healthy
    They’re pricey, what do you get over a normal bike?
    A wildly inaccurate power meter. It had my FTP off by 50% when I tried one!
    I bought a reasonably priced exercise bike in the Autumn. It says I only burn 15 calories per km - is that right?
    I just checked my Strava from my ride where the stupid cow ploughed into me in her fucking leavermobile. I had done 28km averaging 200W and Strava calculates that at 33 cal/km.

    So 15 might be right depending on your fitness and your willingness to suffer. Power readings are the important numbers. Drop the watts bomb on a regular basis!
This discussion has been closed.