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Remember when Betfair settled a US election market too early and paid out on the loser? – politicalb

SystemSystem Posts: 12,051
edited December 2020 in General
imageRemember when Betfair settled a US election market too early and paid out on the loser? – politicalbetting.com

Back in January 2012 all the political betting interest was on the caucuses in Iowa the first state to decide in the race to choose the Republican nominee to take on Barack Obama.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,763
    Second like Trump.

    I see QAnon have been at work:

    https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1339009958629793794?s=19
  • Iowa caucuses have ballsed up two of the last three primary rounds then: Republican in 2012 (see header) and Democrat in 2020 that scuppered the chances of President Mayor Pete.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Iowa_Democratic_presidential_caucuses
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,902
    Kerry-Ann has explained to me that white privilege and white supremacy are nothing to do with skin colour.

    I am educated now.

    https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1338117574261940224
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,231

    Iowa caucuses have ballsed up two of the last three primary rounds then: Republican in 2012 (see header) and Democrat in 2020 that scuppered the chances of President Mayor Pete.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Iowa_Democratic_presidential_caucuses

    To be fair, Mayor Pete is 40 years younger than the President Elect.

    I think he's still got a better than average shot to make it to the top job in the next half century.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,902
    Thanks for the piece, Mike. Appreciate the detailed coverage, even though it's not my area.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,807
    Foxy said:

    Second like Trump.

    I see QAnon have been at work:

    https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1339009958629793794?s=19

    Also retweeted by Trump (this guy is one of his lunatic lawyers).
    https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/1338715369566048256

    Imagine if Trump were re-elected in 2024, and the Krakens were in the Justice Department...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,807
    I wonder where he got this idea ?

    ...charged for running a man off the road and pointing a gun at his head in an attempt to prove claims of a massive voter fraud scheme in Harris County, according to a news release from the Harris County's DA's office.

    Mark Anthony Aguirre, 63, was arrested by Houston police Tuesday and charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison.

    "He crossed the line from dirty politics to commission of a violent crime, and we are lucky no one was killed," Harris County District Attorney Kim Ogg said. "His alleged investigation was backward from the start - first alleging a crime had occurred and then trying to prove it happened."
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,757
    Nigelb said:

    I wonder where he got this idea ?

    ...charged for running a man off the road and pointing a gun at his head in an attempt to prove claims of a massive voter fraud scheme in Harris County, according to a news release from the Harris County's DA's office.

    Mark Anthony Aguirre, 63, was arrested by Houston police Tuesday and charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison.

    "He crossed the line from dirty politics to commission of a violent crime, and we are lucky no one was killed," Harris County District Attorney Kim Ogg said. "His alleged investigation was backward from the start - first alleging a crime had occurred and then trying to prove it happened."

    Also "Aguirre worked for HPD for 24 years and was indefinitely suspended after a botched raid outside a westside K-Mart in 2002."

    "botched raid" = he shot an innocent citizen?

    Or maybe it was his botched raid....

    Anyway, he sounds like Ralph from "Wait Til Your Father Gets Home" in the 70's, made flesh. (I think it used to be on just before Weekend World, late Sunday mornings)
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,140
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Kerry-Ann has explained to me that white privilege and white supremacy are nothing to do with skin colour.

    I am educated now.

    https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1338117574261940224

    It's like self identifying with gender, except that with race, somebody else identifies you, and you have have to fit in with their decision.

    You know what: I believe that white people are - on average - more privileged than people of colour. I believe that - on average - men are more privileged than women, that the straight are more privileged than the gay, and that the able bodied are more privileged than the disabled.

    But you know what else I know: that those with parents who give a shit about education are privileged; that those with parents that stay together are privileged, that those born in the UK are privileged; that those who came into being in the late 20th Century are privileged, and should I go on?

    Privilege is ultimately individual. One cannot simply look at a single measure and say that person is privileged. Indeed, when you do so, and you say that to a white person living in poverty in Appalachia with a father that left long ago and a mother addicted to opioids, you know what you're going to get: insurrection and violence. You can't look at them and say they're privileged, because compared to the average American, they're not.

    It's time to start thinking of people as individuals and recognise their own struggles, rather than chucking them in some big bucket and saying "lo, you are the bucket."
    Identity politics is the scourge of democracy because it prevents argument and debate - views are cancelled solely on the basis of the author and irrespective of their intrinsic merit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,807

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,140

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    Agreed - I'm unsure he will survive as a candidate ovder the next year - let alone 4.
  • Nigelb said:

    I wonder where he got this idea ?

    ...charged for running a man off the road and pointing a gun at his head in an attempt to prove claims of a massive voter fraud scheme in Harris County, according to a news release from the Harris County's DA's office.

    Mark Anthony Aguirre, 63, was arrested by Houston police Tuesday and charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison.

    "He crossed the line from dirty politics to commission of a violent crime, and we are lucky no one was killed," Harris County District Attorney Kim Ogg said. "His alleged investigation was backward from the start - first alleging a crime had occurred and then trying to prove it happened."

    The story is even more strange since the ex-cop and now PI, working for GOP lobbyists, ran this air-conditioning engineer off the road, held him at gunpoint and called the police to search the van for the 750,000 fake ballots (signed by Hispanic children as part of a Democrat election fraud funded by Facebook CEO Mark Zukerberg) he must have genuinely believed were on board.

    So that presumably means there are people out there who now believe these fake votes went on to be cast because the ex-cop stopped the wrong van.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,373
    edited December 2020
    MattW said:

    Kerry-Ann has explained to me that white privilege and white supremacy are nothing to do with skin colour.

    I am educated now.

    https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1338117574261940224

    Is this not you know a bit kinda well racist....the not a proper (insert minority)...which is what Sunak and Patel have had thrown at them. Which is built from a belief that those of certain skin colour must have particular values and outlook on the world...and not exactly very different from the antisemitism tropes.
  • MattW said:

    Kerry-Ann has explained to me that white privilege and white supremacy are nothing to do with skin colour.

    I am educated now.

    https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1338117574261940224

    Is this not you know a bit kinda well racist....the not a proper (insert minority)...which is what Sunak and Patel have had thrown at them. Which is built from a belief that those of certain skin colour must have particular values and outlook on the world...and not exactly very different from the antisemitism tropes.
    As she is wearing expensive Apple earbuds might she be a secret member of the filthy wealthy class?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,763
    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Kerry-Ann has explained to me that white privilege and white supremacy are nothing to do with skin colour.

    I am educated now.

    https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1338117574261940224

    It's like self identifying with gender, except that with race, somebody else identifies you, and you have have to fit in with their decision.

    You know what: I believe that white people are - on average - more privileged than people of colour. I believe that - on average - men are more privileged than women, that the straight are more privileged than the gay, and that the able bodied are more privileged than the disabled.

    But you know what else I know: that those with parents who give a shit about education are privileged; that those with parents that stay together are privileged, that those born in the UK are privileged; that those who came into being in the late 20th Century are privileged, and should I go on?

    Privilege is ultimately individual. One cannot simply look at a single measure and say that person is privileged. Indeed, when you do so, and you say that to a white person living in poverty in Appalachia with a father that left long ago and a mother addicted to opioids, you know what you're going to get: insurrection and violence. You can't look at them and say they're privileged, because compared to the average American, they're not.

    It's time to start thinking of people as individuals and recognise their own struggles, rather than chucking them in some big bucket and saying "lo, you are the bucket."
    Identity politics is the scourge of democracy because it prevents argument and debate - views are cancelled solely on the basis of the author and irrespective of their intrinsic merit.
    Identity politics is not just about minorities, it is at the heart of Trumpism, Le Penism and Brexit. Yes, it is toxic to democracy, with its othering of non believers as traitors.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,373
    edited December 2020
    We need a line on when Trump is going to give up on the election was rigged....when he will then flip to claiming he was the most honourable president ever and oversaw the best handover of power ever seen.
  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
  • Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Second like Trump.

    I see QAnon have been at work:

    https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1339009958629793794?s=19

    Also retweeted by Trump (this guy is one of his lunatic lawyers).
    https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/1338715369566048256

    Imagine if Trump were re-elected in 2024, and the Krakens were in the Justice Department...
    We get four years now of being able to sleep at night (at least over America). Then all bets are off again.

  • MattW said:

    Kerry-Ann has explained to me that white privilege and white supremacy are nothing to do with skin colour.

    I am educated now.

    https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1338117574261940224

    Is this not you know a bit kinda well racist....the not a proper (insert minority)...which is what Sunak and Patel have had thrown at them. Which is built from a belief that those of certain skin colour must have particular values and outlook on the world...and not exactly very different from the antisemitism tropes.
    As she is wearing expensive Apple earbuds might she be a secret member of the filthy wealthy class?
    Well before she went all in on the Jezza and setup the old fake news site, she used to earn some serious dosh as a management consultant in the banking sector.
  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    I have been waiting more in hope than expectation that they would step away from the wreckage of the Trump Presidency. Instead they have doubled down repeatedly. The point where 100+ GOP Congresspeople backed bullshit legal efforts by Confederate states to overturn the vote in Union states was the point where I gave up hope and picked up the popcorn.

    When Biden actually gets sworn in it could turn really nasty.
  • We need a line on when Trump is going to give up on the election was rigged....when he will then flip to claiming he was the most honourable president ever and oversaw the best handover of power ever seen.

    A safer bet will be the crowd for Biden's inauguration will be smaller than Trump's (and wearing masks and standing six feet apart).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,373
    edited December 2020

    We need a line on when Trump is going to give up on the election was rigged....when he will then flip to claiming he was the most honourable president ever and oversaw the best handover of power ever seen.

    A safer bet will be the crowd for Biden's inauguration will be smaller than Trump's (and wearing masks and standing six feet apart).
    Which Trump will undoubtedly tweet like mad, saying see I was much more bigly popular.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,443

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    I have been waiting more in hope than expectation that they would step away from the wreckage of the Trump Presidency. Instead they have doubled down repeatedly. The point where 100+ GOP Congresspeople backed bullshit legal efforts by Confederate states to overturn the vote in Union states was the point where I gave up hope and picked up the popcorn.

    When Biden actually gets sworn in it could turn really nasty.
    Sidney Powell will probably swear Trump in at Mar a Lago or some other nonsense
  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    The problem in the US is that the voter base for a sane centre right party is smaller than that of a far right populist nationalist party, which is why Trumpism will be hard for the Republican party to destroy through the primary process too. We are probably heading in the same direction here, owing to the same processes - the hollowing out of the middle class and the growing liberalism of what remains of it.
  • Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,140
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Kerry-Ann has explained to me that white privilege and white supremacy are nothing to do with skin colour.

    I am educated now.

    https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1338117574261940224

    It's like self identifying with gender, except that with race, somebody else identifies you, and you have have to fit in with their decision.

    You know what: I believe that white people are - on average - more privileged than people of colour. I believe that - on average - men are more privileged than women, that the straight are more privileged than the gay, and that the able bodied are more privileged than the disabled.

    But you know what else I know: that those with parents who give a shit about education are privileged; that those with parents that stay together are privileged, that those born in the UK are privileged; that those who came into being in the late 20th Century are privileged, and should I go on?

    Privilege is ultimately individual. One cannot simply look at a single measure and say that person is privileged. Indeed, when you do so, and you say that to a white person living in poverty in Appalachia with a father that left long ago and a mother addicted to opioids, you know what you're going to get: insurrection and violence. You can't look at them and say they're privileged, because compared to the average American, they're not.

    It's time to start thinking of people as individuals and recognise their own struggles, rather than chucking them in some big bucket and saying "lo, you are the bucket."
    Identity politics is the scourge of democracy because it prevents argument and debate - views are cancelled solely on the basis of the author and irrespective of their intrinsic merit.
    Identity politics is not just about minorities, it is at the heart of Trumpism, Le Penism and Brexit. Yes, it is toxic to democracy, with its othering of non believers as traitors.
    Lol - and there you go. No other examples from the Left of politics spring to your mind.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,459

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    I don't know. I was assured on here that, once Trump had lost, Republicans would be rushing to distance themselves from Trump. It's not happened.

    They're too worried about his influence with Primary voters. I expect they're hearing directly from a lot of these voters.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Whilst I hate anyone dying from Covid, you do wonder about the stupidity of some people. I work on the assumption that politicians are intelligent enough to campaign and be elected so are intelligent enough to be able to discern facts from spin. And yet they choose for political reasons to ignore the facts and end up dying.
  • Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Borough, I have quite a lot of sympathy with that position.

    If a harder line had been taken earlier it would've stood a better chance of general adherence, but changing when most people will have planned things out would see more people not following guidelines.

    F1: There's a 2021 testing market up. As usual, I have very little interest in backing anything in that market.
  • Good morning.

    Put Sky News on this morning and they're talking about "personal responsibility" at Christmas rather than banging on about the limits of what can be done.

    It's a Christmas miracle. Most responsible I've seen the media all year.

    Oh and Kay Burley isn't on and someone else is instead. Coincidence or not?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,376
    Andy Burnham explicitly opposing the BoZo line

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1339117194576343040
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,459

    Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    A real leader would be able to cajole, convince and inspire the country into following them.

    Johnson is no real leader and we are suffering the consequences.

    There are people who have no option but to work in public-facing roles who can do little to protect themselves. A call for personal responsibility is victim-blaming.

    We need a leader more interested in doing what is right than what is popular.
  • Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    What the government should have done is say, early on, from September that it is too early to say what will happen at xmas, instead of feeding newspapers with stories about 'saving xmas'.

    Then when it was clear there would be a problem, say late October, started saying it will not be illegal to gather but we strongly urge against on medical grounds and that is the message we will be delivering until the xmas arrives.

    But we are were we are. Far too late now to tell people the rules are changing again. That way does lie mass disobedience and so on. Travel plans have been made now etc etc.

  • Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    Christmas granny-killing might have been avoidable if HMG had used the line that extended families should gather at Easter instead, which is when it believes vaccination will have reached the stage of allowing a return to normality.

    Postpone to Easter would have been an easier sell than foregoing it completely.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,757

    Good morning.

    Put Sky News on this morning and they're talking about "personal responsibility" at Christmas rather than banging on about the limits of what can be done.

    It's a Christmas miracle. Most responsible I've seen the media all year.

    Oh and Kay Burley isn't on and someone else is instead. Coincidence or not?

    Isn't Kay Burley on a six month, er, sabbatical?
  • Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    Christmas granny-killing might have been avoidable if HMG had used the line that extended families should gather at Easter instead, which is when it believes vaccination will have reached the stage of allowing a return to normality.

    Postpone to Easter would have been an easier sell than foregoing it completely.
    They've explicitly said that.

    Which granny hasn't heard that message or thought it for themselves?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,338

    Good morning.

    Put Sky News on this morning and they're talking about "personal responsibility" at Christmas rather than banging on about the limits of what can be done.

    It's a Christmas miracle. Most responsible I've seen the media all year.

    Oh and Kay Burley isn't on and someone else is instead. Coincidence or not?

    Yes, the idea that the government determines who I invite on Christmas day or any other day is a slightly bizarre one. They can set limits in the context of public health but there is no obligation on me to use them. And the idea that there was ever likely to be legal enforcement of those provisions was for the birds.

    The messaging for this has been awful. The lockdowns have not worked and show increasingly limited utility in controlling the virus. Relaxations do show it is "ok" even if the advice is otherwise, apparently. It is just sad that independent thought seems such an endangered species.
  • On topic, I'm sure the Iowa expereince of 8 years ago affected Betfair. I had money on Santorum then and I have no significant complaints about their handling of the Presidential market this time. They should look at the wording they use in the rules though.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,443
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    I have been waiting more in hope than expectation that they would step away from the wreckage of the Trump Presidency. Instead they have doubled down repeatedly. The point where 100+ GOP Congresspeople backed bullshit legal efforts by Confederate states to overturn the vote in Union states was the point where I gave up hope and picked up the popcorn.

    When Biden actually gets sworn in it could turn really nasty.
    Sidney Powell will probably swear Trump in at Mar a Lago or some other nonsense
    Actually, think he might get Mark Burns to do it. Trump's sycophants will point (Technically correctly) that the constitution doesn't specify who does it
  • Good morning.

    Put Sky News on this morning and they're talking about "personal responsibility" at Christmas rather than banging on about the limits of what can be done.

    It's a Christmas miracle. Most responsible I've seen the media all year.

    Oh and Kay Burley isn't on and someone else is instead. Coincidence or not?

    Isn't Kay Burley on a six month, er, sabbatical?
    Well indeed!

    And coincidence or not but without her the reporting is far, far more responsible this morning.

    Talking about "personal responsibility" and making smart choices rather than trying to find hypothetical edge case limits of what is legally permissible.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,338

    On topic, I'm sure the Iowa expereince of 8 years ago affected Betfair. I had money on Santorum then and I have no significant complaints about their handling of the Presidential market this time. They should look at the wording they use in the rules though.

    There are really 2 things. If the wording was the same as this time they were right to pay out on Romney because he was the projected winner. They need to be much more precise about where the winning post is. Secondly, there was not 8 or 34 votes in this, there were 7m or 74 EC votes. This was not close and there was zero risk that Trump was ever going to turn over enough states to reverse it.
  • Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    In which case the message from the government needs to be stern. "We can't stop you gathering. If you do, you may be gathering again in January to bury your family members". Instead, to assist people making responsible decisions the government are publicising spending money on additional coach journeys so that you can get home for Christmas.

    They are doing the exact polar opposite of what they should be doing. Its not a surprise with this lot, and once again the inevitable death toll will be on their hands come Jan/Feb.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,021
    Scott_xP said:

    Andy Burnham explicitly opposing the BoZo line

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1339117194576343040

    What does "shorter Christmas period" mean? Less than five days but more than zero presumably...
  • Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    Christmas granny-killing might have been avoidable if HMG had used the line that extended families should gather at Easter instead, which is when it believes vaccination will have reached the stage of allowing a return to normality.

    Postpone to Easter would have been an easier sell than foregoing it completely.
    They've explicitly said that.

    Which granny hasn't heard that message or thought it for themselves?
    Philip, I know you love alt-fact arguments, but do I need to retweet you Transport Secretary Sebastian Fox bragging about how many extra coach seats he had paid for so that people can get home for Christmas?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_xP said:
    I can’t read the article but that strikes me as obnoxious behaviour by his neighbours
  • Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    Christmas granny-killing might have been avoidable if HMG had used the line that extended families should gather at Easter instead, which is when it believes vaccination will have reached the stage of allowing a return to normality.

    Postpone to Easter would have been an easier sell than foregoing it completely.
    They've explicitly said that.

    Which granny hasn't heard that message or thought it for themselves?
    Philip, I know you love alt-fact arguments, but do I need to retweet you Transport Secretary Sebastian Fox bragging about how many extra coach seats he had paid for so that people can get home for Christmas?
    Yes because no matter what some people will be going home for Christmas. Students especially. 🤦🏻‍♂️

    Doesn't mean that you should be going to see granny or give her a hug. Which they've been saying and emphasising Easter for weeks since the vaccine was announced.

    More than one thing can be true simultaneously.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Second like Trump.

    I see QAnon have been at work:

    https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1339009958629793794?s=19

    Also retweeted by Trump (this guy is one of his lunatic lawyers).
    https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/1338715369566048256

    Imagine if Trump were re-elected in 2024, and the Krakens were in the Justice Department...
    We get four years now of being able to sleep at night (at least over America). Then all bets are off again.

    How many wars did Trump get involved in vs Obama? How many Arab countries signed peace deals with Israel on Obama’s watch?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,763

    Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    In which case the message from the government needs to be stern. "We can't stop you gathering. If you do, you may be gathering again in January to bury your family members".
    Generally, extreme messages like this are counterproductive in public health, even if true. They have a tendency to make people switch off and ignore. More supportive measures on how to behave safely, and have an online gathering etc would probably be more effective.
  • tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy Burnham explicitly opposing the BoZo line

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1339117194576343040

    What does "shorter Christmas period" mean? Less than five days but more than zero presumably...
    A Christmas Day amnesty? You can go see people on the day only. The authorities will be clamping down on travel on every other day. Which would at least stop people going the length of the country.

  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    The problem in the US is that the voter base for a sane centre right party is smaller than that of a far right populist nationalist party, which is why Trumpism will be hard for the Republican party to destroy through the primary process too. We are probably heading in the same direction here, owing to the same processes - the hollowing out of the middle class and the growing liberalism of what remains of it.
    Biden is a sane centre right politician and will be a more popular President than either a Trumpist or a Sanders/Warren type could be. As was Obama. It is not the voter base that is the problem but a two party system combined with the primary process, allowing the hardcore voters to select the candidates, pushing them away from the median voter.
  • tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy Burnham explicitly opposing the BoZo line

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1339117194576343040

    What does "shorter Christmas period" mean? Less than five days but more than zero presumably...
    I think you have cracked the code!
  • DavidL said:

    On topic, I'm sure the Iowa expereince of 8 years ago affected Betfair. I had money on Santorum then and I have no significant complaints about their handling of the Presidential market this time. They should look at the wording they use in the rules though.

    There are really 2 things. If the wording was the same as this time they were right to pay out on Romney because he was the projected winner. They need to be much more precise about where the winning post is. Secondly, there was not 8 or 34 votes in this, there were 7m or 74 EC votes. This was not close and there was zero risk that Trump was ever going to turn over enough states to reverse it.
    There was a non-zero risk SCOTUS with 6 conservative Justices could play silly buggers and toss out millions of votes. They shouldn't but they could which could have potentially made Trump the projected winner by last Sunday before the Electoral College met.

    It shouldn't happen but there was a chance it could until SCOTUS ruled.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,599
    rcs1000 said:

    Iowa caucuses have ballsed up two of the last three primary rounds then: Republican in 2012 (see header) and Democrat in 2020 that scuppered the chances of President Mayor Pete.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Iowa_Democratic_presidential_caucuses

    To be fair, Mayor Pete is 40 years younger than the President Elect.

    I think he's still got a better than average shot to make it to the top job in the next half century.
    That's a bet for people who definitely like Betfair hanging onto their money. If only it were available.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,338

    Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    Christmas granny-killing might have been avoidable if HMG had used the line that extended families should gather at Easter instead, which is when it believes vaccination will have reached the stage of allowing a return to normality.

    Postpone to Easter would have been an easier sell than foregoing it completely.
    They've explicitly said that.

    Which granny hasn't heard that message or thought it for themselves?
    Philip, I know you love alt-fact arguments, but do I need to retweet you Transport Secretary Sebastian Fox bragging about how many extra coach seats he had paid for so that people can get home for Christmas?
    Yes because no matter what some people will be going home for Christmas. Students especially. 🤦🏻‍♂️

    Doesn't mean that you should be going to see granny or give her a hug. Which they've been saying and emphasising Easter for weeks since the vaccine was announced.

    More than one thing can be true simultaneously.
    My nephew was sent home from University (where 5 of his flatmates had tested positive) at the beginning of last week and has basically been told to stay there for January and take his classes remotely and online.

    There is inevitably going to be more going back and forward between University and home in the coming weeks. For example my nephew has a part time job at Tesco's in Dundee and is coming up to Dundee to work there at weekends staying in his University accommodation. Students will continue to meet up for both study and entertainment purposes. That is just inevitable.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,902
    Scott_xP said:

    Andy Burnham explicitly opposing the BoZo line

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1339117194576343040

    Not a strong argument - Burnham was saying essentially "most of Manchester is below the national average at about 150 on the numbers, so let us out".
  • Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Second like Trump.

    I see QAnon have been at work:

    https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1339009958629793794?s=19

    Also retweeted by Trump (this guy is one of his lunatic lawyers).
    https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/1338715369566048256

    Imagine if Trump were re-elected in 2024, and the Krakens were in the Justice Department...
    We get four years now of being able to sleep at night (at least over America). Then all bets are off again.

    How many wars did Trump get involved in vs Obama? How many Arab countries signed peace deals with Israel on Obama’s watch?
    Yes, but for me I couldn't get rid of the feeling that Trump could wake up one morning and decide to bomb a country or use nuclear weapons on a total whim.

    As his own Sec of State said: "he's a moron".
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    A real leader would be able to cajole, convince and inspire the country into following them.

    Johnson is no real leader and we are suffering the consequences.

    There are people who have no option but to work in public-facing roles who can do little to protect themselves. A call for personal responsibility is victim-blaming.

    We need a leader more interested in doing what is right than what is popular.
    Bullshit

    This makes me very angry.

    I am choosing not to see my mother - in her 70s - at Christmas. It would be a stupid risk to run for her.

    People need to grow up, look at the facts and do the right thing. Personal responsibility for your own health, the health of your friends and family and for society as a whole is at the heart of everything.

    A leader should be calling for that and trusting the public
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,807

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    The problem in the US is that the voter base for a sane centre right party is smaller than that of a far right populist nationalist party, which is why Trumpism will be hard for the Republican party to destroy through the primary process too. We are probably heading in the same direction here, owing to the same processes - the hollowing out of the middle class and the growing liberalism of what remains of it.
    Biden is a sane centre right politician and will be a more popular President than either a Trumpist or a Sanders/Warren type could be. As was Obama. It is not the voter base that is the problem....
    That is a large assumption now.
  • tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy Burnham explicitly opposing the BoZo line

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1339117194576343040

    What does "shorter Christmas period" mean? Less than five days but more than zero presumably...
    A Christmas Day amnesty? You can go see people on the day only. The authorities will be clamping down on travel on every other day. Which would at least stop people going the length of the country.

    So key workers who have been working all year and are working on Christmas Day lose their chance to see anyone on an alternative date but those who get the day off can gather as normal?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,338

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I'm sure the Iowa expereince of 8 years ago affected Betfair. I had money on Santorum then and I have no significant complaints about their handling of the Presidential market this time. They should look at the wording they use in the rules though.

    There are really 2 things. If the wording was the same as this time they were right to pay out on Romney because he was the projected winner. They need to be much more precise about where the winning post is. Secondly, there was not 8 or 34 votes in this, there were 7m or 74 EC votes. This was not close and there was zero risk that Trump was ever going to turn over enough states to reverse it.
    There was a non-zero risk SCOTUS with 6 conservative Justices could play silly buggers and toss out millions of votes. They shouldn't but they could which could have potentially made Trump the projected winner by last Sunday before the Electoral College met.

    It shouldn't happen but there was a chance it could until SCOTUS ruled.
    No there wasn't except in Trumpist fantasies. It was so ridiculous that they declined even to hear it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,376
    Charles said:

    I can’t read the article but that strikes me as obnoxious behaviour by his neighbours

    He explicitly signed an agreement that it was a hotel, not a residence.

    It seems entirely reasonable that the neighbours hold him to that
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,582
    edited December 2020

    Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    In which case the message from the government needs to be stern. "We can't stop you gathering. If you do, you may be gathering again in January to bury your family members". Instead, to assist people making responsible decisions the government are publicising spending money on additional coach journeys so that you can get home for Christmas.

    They are doing the exact polar opposite of what they should be doing. Its not a surprise with this lot, and once again the inevitable death toll will be on their hands come Jan/Feb.
    Part of the trouble is that, especially in a pandemic, public health is a public good, and subject to something a bit like the Tragedy of the Commons.

    The big risk isn't so much me killing granny because of meeting up over Christmas, it's granny being killed because she goes to the shops in January when there's more virus in circulation. And there's less I can do about that, because the circulation of virus depends on what everyone else does. So I might as well go up to the limits of family mixing.

    It's a bit like the issue some people (ninnies mostly) have with masks. I'm not wearing a mask to protect me, I'm wearing it to protect other people and hoping that they will reciprocate. As a culture, we're not brilliant at weighing up those calculations.

    The other trouble is that this government is so fearful of looking weak (because it is run by weak people, they have to go to unhealthy lengths to appear strong), they can't even run with "we can't stop you, but please don't" messaging. Because that would be to admit their weakness and that the "Operation Save Christmas" controls of autumn failed. You know, like some people were accusing Mark the Welshman of yesterday, when they thought he was blocking this, not Boris.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,599
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Reaching boiling point isn't such a stretch in Palm beach

    Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    What the government should have done is say, early on, from September that it is too early to say what will happen at xmas, instead of feeding newspapers with stories about 'saving xmas'.

    Then when it was clear there would be a problem, say late October, started saying it will not be illegal to gather but we strongly urge against on medical grounds and that is the message we will be delivering until the xmas arrives.

    But we are were we are. Far too late now to tell people the rules are changing again. That way does lie mass disobedience and so on. Travel plans have been made now etc etc.

    The mistake isn't Christmas - it's all the chopping and changing and shifting of sands that they've inflicted on us meantime. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to run the second lockdown consistently through to the end of this week, and then let those who want to enjoy Christmas, as they always were going to do. My mother at 90 within months is counting her Christmasses and after the year we have had the focus should have been on allowing those elderly people who want to, to meet their families.
  • Scott_xP said:
    There's been a mix of advice and law since this began.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,338

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    The problem in the US is that the voter base for a sane centre right party is smaller than that of a far right populist nationalist party, which is why Trumpism will be hard for the Republican party to destroy through the primary process too. We are probably heading in the same direction here, owing to the same processes - the hollowing out of the middle class and the growing liberalism of what remains of it.
    Biden is a sane centre right politician and will be a more popular President than either a Trumpist or a Sanders/Warren type could be. As was Obama. It is not the voter base that is the problem but a two party system combined with the primary process, allowing the hardcore voters to select the candidates, pushing them away from the median voter.
    I think that he will be deeply ineffectual and unable to cope with the mad partisanship that dominates Washington these days. If the republicans keep the Senate it may take him a year to get all his nominations though the Senate, for example. But he will be less actively damaging than Trump.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy Burnham explicitly opposing the BoZo line

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1339117194576343040

    What does "shorter Christmas period" mean? Less than five days but more than zero presumably...
    I think you have cracked the code!
    Allows him to sound tougher than Boris without cancelling Christmas. Would do nothing to save the problem. Triangulation 101.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,500
    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I can’t read the article but that strikes me as obnoxious behaviour by his neighbours
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/maralago-florida-trump-white-house-b1774737.html has the jist of it and it seems reasonable.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,376
    Charles said:

    Personal responsibility for your own health, the health of your friends and family and for society as a whole is at the heart of everything.

    A leader should be calling for that and trusting the public

    BoZo is not a leader.

    He torched any chance of doing this when he failed to sack Cummings who not only failed to take personal responsibility for your own health, the health of your friends and family and for society as a whole, he got a prime TV slot to lie about it
  • Scott_xP said:
    Hmm. I was listening. I thought he had got into to shit there, but he immediately followed up with "in the sense that you could do less" than the rules allowed.

    Just about got away with it I would say.

  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    An uneasy truce, a kind of marriage of convenience, is more likely.

    The strains are already severe though. Watch Georgia. I'm beginning to think the Dems can take both seats.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,519
    edited December 2020
    Yes I'm with the Trust the People lot.

    There is no one who is not aware of the Covid risks. Whether they be 20 or 80. Hence we should be trusted to do what we believe we want to or think right. For some that will be seeing their 80-yr old parents; for some that will not be seeing their 80-yr old parents.

    I don't think anyone will go directly from a knees-up at Spoons to their 80-yr old parents.

    I think given the risk profile it is mostly for the 80-yr old parents to decide ultimately. For some of those, Christmas and seeing family is a hugely important part of their lives in a pretty miserable year, perhaps enough for it to be a significant factor in their mental health wellbeing; for others they will not mind waiting a few more months to see the family.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I'm sure the Iowa expereince of 8 years ago affected Betfair. I had money on Santorum then and I have no significant complaints about their handling of the Presidential market this time. They should look at the wording they use in the rules though.

    There are really 2 things. If the wording was the same as this time they were right to pay out on Romney because he was the projected winner. They need to be much more precise about where the winning post is. Secondly, there was not 8 or 34 votes in this, there were 7m or 74 EC votes. This was not close and there was zero risk that Trump was ever going to turn over enough states to reverse it.
    There was a non-zero risk SCOTUS with 6 conservative Justices could play silly buggers and toss out millions of votes. They shouldn't but they could which could have potentially made Trump the projected winner by last Sunday before the Electoral College met.

    It shouldn't happen but there was a chance it could until SCOTUS ruled.
    No there wasn't except in Trumpist fantasies. It was so ridiculous that they declined even to hear it.
    Yes but why should Betfair preempt the Courts?

    It is the Courts job to issue rulings, it is not Betfair's. If Betfair starts preempting rulings then where do they draw the line?

    The law provides a cut off date and the Ts and C's explicitly mentioned waiting for the official results. They paid out on the day of the official results as their Ts and C's explicitly mentioned.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Second like Trump.

    I see QAnon have been at work:

    https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1339009958629793794?s=19

    Also retweeted by Trump (this guy is one of his lunatic lawyers).
    https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/1338715369566048256

    Imagine if Trump were re-elected in 2024, and the Krakens were in the Justice Department...
    We get four years now of being able to sleep at night (at least over America). Then all bets are off again.

    How many wars did Trump get involved in vs Obama? How many Arab countries signed peace deals with Israel on Obama’s watch?
    Yes, but for me I couldn't get rid of the feeling that Trump could wake up one morning and decide to bomb a country or use nuclear weapons on a total whim.

    As his own Sec of State said: "he's a moron".
    That was why he was effective...

    (There was a lot more going on behind the scenes with Tillerson. He couldn’t adapt from being the bloke in charge to being one of a team)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,807
    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I can’t read the article but that strikes me as obnoxious behaviour by his neighbours
    Trump's a pretty obnoxious neighbour himself, so simply a bit of payback.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9057857/Palm-Beach-residents-demand-town-ban-Trump-moving-Mar-Lago.html

    Live by the lawsuit, die by the lawsuit.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    The problem in the US is that the voter base for a sane centre right party is smaller than that of a far right populist nationalist party, which is why Trumpism will be hard for the Republican party to destroy through the primary process too. We are probably heading in the same direction here, owing to the same processes - the hollowing out of the middle class and the growing liberalism of what remains of it.
    Biden is a sane centre right politician and will be a more popular President than either a Trumpist or a Sanders/Warren type could be. As was Obama. It is not the voter base that is the problem....
    That is a large assumption now.
    The voter base definitely has a large number of poorly educated people who can be sold random theories via social media. In itself that would not be a problem in terms of electing Presidents if party chiefs appointed candidates without the primary process.

    Primaries (and one member one vote here) are more democratic for the party memberships but less democratic and more divisive for the countries they run.
  • Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I can’t read the article but that strikes me as obnoxious behaviour by his neighbours
    It is basically a planning dispute. Trump undertook to use Mar-A-Lago as a club and not a home. Here is a non-paywalled report from the Independent.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/maralago-florida-trump-white-house-b1774737.html

    Before condemning President Trump's new neighbours, remember that every time he steps out for a pint of milk, the Secret Service will close the roads.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,757
    edited December 2020

    Scott_xP said:
    Hmm. I was listening. I thought he had got into to shit there, but he immediately followed up with "in the sense that you could do less" than the rules allowed.

    Just about got away with it I would say.

    That is desperately trying to make something out of nothing. I mean, there has been ample twattishness from politicians to go round, without trying to manufacture it from something which is self-evidently not.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,443
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Reaching boiling point isn't such a stretch

    Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    What the government should have done is say, early on, from September that it is too early to say what will happen at xmas, instead of feeding newspapers with stories about 'saving xmas'.

    Then when it was clear there would be a problem, say late October, started saying it will not be illegal to gather but we strongly urge against on medical grounds and that is the message we will be delivering until the xmas arrives.

    But we are were we are. Far too late now to tell people the rules are changing again. That way does lie mass disobedience and so on. Travel plans have been made now etc etc.

    The mistake isn't Christmas - it's all the chopping and changing and shifting of sands that they've inflicted on us meantime. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to run the second lockdown consistently through to the end of this week, and then let those who want to enjoy Christmas, as they always were going to do. My mother at 90 within months is counting her Christmasses and after the year we have had the focus should have been on allowing those elderly people who want to, to meet their families.
    THIS. Lockdown or at least a national T3 should have been run right till christmas. Family is more important than pubs, non essential retail and gyms.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,519
    For fuck's sake.

    This is a Dogs Must Be Carried situation.

    It is not mandatory to carry a dog on the tube and if you decide not to carry a dog on the tube you are unlikely to get into trouble.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,338
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Reaching boiling point isn't such a stretch in Palm beach

    Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    What the government should have done is say, early on, from September that it is too early to say what will happen at xmas, instead of feeding newspapers with stories about 'saving xmas'.

    Then when it was clear there would be a problem, say late October, started saying it will not be illegal to gather but we strongly urge against on medical grounds and that is the message we will be delivering until the xmas arrives.

    But we are were we are. Far too late now to tell people the rules are changing again. That way does lie mass disobedience and so on. Travel plans have been made now etc etc.

    The mistake isn't Christmas - it's all the chopping and changing and shifting of sands that they've inflicted on us meantime. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to run the second lockdown consistently through to the end of this week, and then let those who want to enjoy Christmas, as they always were going to do. My mother at 90 within months is counting her Christmasses and after the year we have had the focus should have been on allowing those elderly people who want to, to meet their families.
    It's really difficult. Would it have been better to have simpler and consistent laws throughout rather than the chopping and changing of tiers, now almost on a daily basis, to the point that people genuinely don't know what they can and can't do? Of course. Would there have been higher compliance with such rules? Beyond a doubt.

    But such rules would have inflicted unnecessary harm on areas with low prevalence of the virus. The tier system and its complexity was designed to mitigate that damage. I am not sure that it has worked but I can fully understand why they felt the need to try.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,807

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    The problem in the US is that the voter base for a sane centre right party is smaller than that of a far right populist nationalist party, which is why Trumpism will be hard for the Republican party to destroy through the primary process too. We are probably heading in the same direction here, owing to the same processes - the hollowing out of the middle class and the growing liberalism of what remains of it.
    Biden is a sane centre right politician and will be a more popular President than either a Trumpist or a Sanders/Warren type could be. As was Obama. It is not the voter base that is the problem....
    That is a large assumption now.
    The voter base definitely has a large number of poorly educated people who can be sold random theories via social media. In itself that would not be a problem in terms of electing Presidents if party chiefs appointed candidates without the primary process.

    Primaries (and one member one vote here) are more democratic for the party memberships but less democratic and more divisive for the countries they run.
    Indeed, but once a significant proportion of the electorate is hooked on conspiracy theories and hatred, expecting them to change that worldview any time soon is ... optimistic.

    It's not impossible, but there is simply no Republican leader in sight who might attempt such a process, or possess the capacity to carry it out.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,757
    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    I can’t read the article but that strikes me as obnoxious behaviour by his neighbours

    He explicitly signed an agreement that it was a hotel, not a residence.

    It seems entirely reasonable that the neighbours hold him to that
    He can check out of his hotel any time he chooses. He is just choosing not to.

    Rather like the White House....
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,902

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I can’t read the article but that strikes me as obnoxious behaviour by his neighbours
    It is basically a planning dispute. Trump undertook to use Mar-A-Lago as a club and not a home. Here is a non-paywalled report from the Independent.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/maralago-florida-trump-white-house-b1774737.html

    Before condemning President Trump's new neighbours, remember that every time he steps out for a pint of milk, the Secret Service will close the roads.
    Is it not usual for individuals to live in suites at a hotel?

    Consider Coco Chanel at the Savoy.
  • Good morning.

    Put Sky News on this morning and they're talking about "personal responsibility" at Christmas rather than banging on about the limits of what can be done.

    It's a Christmas miracle. Most responsible I've seen the media all year.

    Oh and Kay Burley isn't on and someone else is instead. Coincidence or not?

    Isn't Kay Burley on a six month, er, sabbatical?
    Well indeed!

    And coincidence or not but without her the reporting is far, far more responsible this morning.

    Talking about "personal responsibility" and making smart choices rather than trying to find hypothetical edge case limits of what is legally permissible.
    Sky is a lot better for her absence and to be honest I cannot see how she returns with any credibility left
  • DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have a feeling that come Jan 21st many senior Republicans are going to start turning on Trump.

    They're too afraid too right now and I don't entirely blame them. The bizarre constitutional set up that generates a near 3-month gap from election to inauguration is to blame. It relies on decency but breaks down when you have an as5hole in the White House.

    Stripped of office, Trump will no longer look or sound like a person of power. He will still rant and rave but he will come to regret making so many enemies. There's that moment in House of Cards when the big cheese Raymond Tusk suddenly finds himself facing jail ...
    We’ll see. I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion at all.
    It’s just as likely, perhaps more so, that the party remains in thrall to him.
    The problem is there are now two GOP parties and one is basically a Trump personality cult. Only one will survive the coming party civil war and I don't think it will be the sane branch.

    Maybe a new centre right party will be the medium term solution? There's been mutterings.
    The problem in the US is that the voter base for a sane centre right party is smaller than that of a far right populist nationalist party, which is why Trumpism will be hard for the Republican party to destroy through the primary process too. We are probably heading in the same direction here, owing to the same processes - the hollowing out of the middle class and the growing liberalism of what remains of it.
    Biden is a sane centre right politician and will be a more popular President than either a Trumpist or a Sanders/Warren type could be. As was Obama. It is not the voter base that is the problem but a two party system combined with the primary process, allowing the hardcore voters to select the candidates, pushing them away from the median voter.
    I think that he will be deeply ineffectual and unable to cope with the mad partisanship that dominates Washington these days. If the republicans keep the Senate it may take him a year to get all his nominations though the Senate, for example. But he will be less actively damaging than Trump.
    I am only commenting on his popularity (i.e. net approval) not his effectiveness.

    I think the importance of the Georgia Senate elections are being overplayed, regardless of the result there will be a group of about half a dozen median Senators across the parties with effective control, not McConnell nor Biden.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Hmm. I was listening. I thought he had got into to shit there, but he immediately followed up with "in the sense that you could do less" than the rules allowed.

    Just about got away with it I would say.

    Remember Jenrick himself broke the first lockdown guidelines last spring when he drove to his second third home.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,338
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Reaching boiling point isn't such a stretch

    Some insight into the No 10 thinking from Telegrph:

    "While Downing Street acknowledges that allowing more household mixing from December 23 to 27 may push up infections, the feeling is it would be even worse to cancel Christmas and face the prospect of a disgruntled public abandoning the rules altogether in the New Year."

    Listening to 5 live this morning the consensus seemed to be we will do what we want as it is Christmas

    I doubt the politicians can resolve this problem either way and it is time everyone took responsibility for their own safety
    What the government should have done is say, early on, from September that it is too early to say what will happen at xmas, instead of feeding newspapers with stories about 'saving xmas'.

    Then when it was clear there would be a problem, say late October, started saying it will not be illegal to gather but we strongly urge against on medical grounds and that is the message we will be delivering until the xmas arrives.

    But we are were we are. Far too late now to tell people the rules are changing again. That way does lie mass disobedience and so on. Travel plans have been made now etc etc.

    The mistake isn't Christmas - it's all the chopping and changing and shifting of sands that they've inflicted on us meantime. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to run the second lockdown consistently through to the end of this week, and then let those who want to enjoy Christmas, as they always were going to do. My mother at 90 within months is counting her Christmasses and after the year we have had the focus should have been on allowing those elderly people who want to, to meet their families.
    THIS. Lockdown or at least a national T3 should have been run right till christmas. Family is more important than pubs, non essential retail and gyms.
    Would you feel that if you worked in one of those establishments and there was a high probability that your job was going to be lost? I am not so sure.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,373
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    Andy Burnham explicitly opposing the BoZo line

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1339117194576343040

    That's from the Drakeford playbook of idiotic thinking. Bit harsher for a few days, then relaxation...we all know where that ends up.
This discussion has been closed.