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In The Bleak Midwinter – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,127
edited November 2020 in General
In The Bleak Midwinter – politicalbetting.com

Final speech prep ahead of tomorrow’s Spending Review. Watch live straight after PMQs #SR20 pic.twitter.com/IqZYnCrkeE

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    Bidenesque ...
  • FPT

    Good morning, everyone.

    Landale might want to recall the manifesto predated COVID-19 becoming a global pandemic. It's not unreasonable to reassess spending given the profound impact the disease has had.

    Cool, so we can cancel Brexit because of that logic, because even Gove acknowledged No Deal Brexit would be very bad for the UK economy.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    Stocky said: "One day I shall wake up to some money in my BF account."

    .............................................................................................................

    Your great, great-grandchildren will think kindly of you as they tell their grandchildren that a distant ancestor has left them a small legacy that their grandchildren will reflect upon as a piece of social history.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    JACK_W said:

    Stocky said: "One day I shall wake up to some money in my BF account."

    .............................................................................................................

    Your great, great-grandchildren will think kindly of you as they tell their grandchildren that a distant ancestor has left them a small legacy that their grandchildren will reflect upon as a piece of social history.

    On the n x 10^6th day of Christmas my true love gave to me
    My winnings from Betfreeeee.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    JACK_W said:

    Stocky said: "One day I shall wake up to some money in my BF account."

    .............................................................................................................

    Your great, great-grandchildren will think kindly of you as they tell their grandchildren that a distant ancestor has left them a small legacy that their grandchildren will reflect upon as a piece of social history.

    It`s like that fucking £1 premium bond that someone gave me when I was a new born back in the 60s. No winnings. Still worth £1 in theory.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    Denying @TheScreamingEagles an unwarranted thread first is an unqualified bigly achievement unsurpassed in the history of PB ..... said President Trump in his latest announcement to MPGGA - Make Political Betting Great Again.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
    Stocky said:

    JACK_W said:

    Stocky said: "One day I shall wake up to some money in my BF account."

    .............................................................................................................

    Your great, great-grandchildren will think kindly of you as they tell their grandchildren that a distant ancestor has left them a small legacy that their grandchildren will reflect upon as a piece of social history.

    It`s like that fucking £1 premium bond that someone gave me when I was a new born back in the 60s. No winnings. Still worth £1 in theory.
    I left £1 in the account when I cashed in my premium bonds, just to keep it open. Nor has it won anything since.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    Good thread Cyclefree but I`m struggling to get on board with any suggestion that involves sinking the country in an even worse financial mire than it is already in.

    I think history will reveal Sunak`s packages to be very poorly targeted - astonishingly generous to some whereas others have been left with nothing. I know people at both ends.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    FPT

    Good morning, everyone.

    Landale might want to recall the manifesto predated COVID-19 becoming a global pandemic. It's not unreasonable to reassess spending given the profound impact the disease has had.

    Cool, so we can cancel Brexit because of that logic, because even Gove acknowledged No Deal Brexit would be very bad for the UK economy.
    Covid is an Act of God type event - yes you could argue a pandemic was inevitable at some point but the timing and method of infection means it cannot be predicted.

    Brexit especially a No Deal one is man made - through stupidity and pig headed ness.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,824
    IshmaelZ said:

    JACK_W said:

    Stocky said: "One day I shall wake up to some money in my BF account."

    .............................................................................................................

    Your great, great-grandchildren will think kindly of you as they tell their grandchildren that a distant ancestor has left them a small legacy that their grandchildren will reflect upon as a piece of social history.

    On the n x 10^6th day of Christmas my true love gave to me
    My winnings from Betfreeeee.
    Enjoy the (n x 10^6)-1 pineapple pizzas. :smiley:
  • Mr. Eagles, given there was a referendum on that matter, I'd contend a second referendum would be necessary to reverse it.

    Still baffles me that pro-EU types didn't try and slide in such in return for backing May's deal.
  • I hope there will be more for the sector today. There has been an extraordinary amount given so far this year but it and more is all needed. A lifeline is needed to get through to the Spring.

    If businesses can survive until the Spring then I suspect next Spring and Summer will be the best seen for years, there will be a lot of pent up demand, but that won't be much use for any businesses that collapse between now and then.

    As Cyclefree says there is no need for an indefinite lifeline. We have a vaccine coming, but until it is deployed there will need to be a solution.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214
    Powerful piece. Difficult decisions for the govt certainly. Personally I agree we should keep supporting the sector.
    It might be an idea to start considering concessionary loans rather than grants?

    But difficult decisions also stem from failing to make the right decision earlier.

    A circuit breaker back in September, better isolation incentives, a test and trace system run by or at least engaging local authorities, deployment of rapid mass testing... all arguably missed opportunities to avoid having to use the big hammer of national lockdown.
  • Mr. Eagles, given there was a referendum on that matter, I'd contend a second referendum would be necessary to reverse it.

    Still baffles me that pro-EU types didn't try and slide in such in return for backing May's deal.

    Thank goodness they didn't!

    A Remain vs May's deal referendum would have been the worst of all world's. I was genuinely worried that might be the outcome at one point, I can't believe our luck that they were too hubristic to go for that.
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  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    Sandpit said:

    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.

    You wait until the serious tax rises come.

    I've always thought he's the most overrated politician since Tony Blair. His only reflex is to fling lots of borrowed money at every problem, and not even particularly competently at that. In the next six months we'll see if I was right or not.
  • Mr. Thompson, I think it was more fear they didn't have the numbers.

    But never even making the attempt was foolish.

    In such a referendum, I think it likely Remain would've won.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,824
    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.

    You wait until the serious tax rises come.

    I've always thought he's the most overrated politician since Tony Blair. His only reflex is to fling lots of borrowed money at every problem, and not even particularly competently at that. In the next six months we'll see if I was right or not.
    I thought the various furlough schemes had been viewed as a success?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2020
    Sandpit said:

    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.

    Next year or the year after even is the time to addressing the deficit.

    i suspect today it will be a case of dealing with the pandemic spending but "don't rock the boat" for everything else. Freeze it where possible as is, no cuts or increases just kick it for 12 months.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
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    GA 16 B
    NV 6 B
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    MI 16 B
    MN 10 B
    NH 4 B
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    PA 20 B
    TX 38 T
    AL 9 T
    DL 3 T
    KY 8 T
    LA 8 T
    ME 2 B
    ME-1 1 B
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    NM 5 B
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    OK 7 T
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    SD 3 T
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    VT 3 B
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  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    edited November 2020
    rkrkrk said:

    Powerful piece. Difficult decisions for the govt certainly. Personally I agree we should keep supporting the sector.
    It might be an idea to start considering concessionary loans rather than grants?

    But difficult decisions also stem from failing to make the right decision earlier.

    A circuit breaker back in September, better isolation incentives, a test and trace system run by or at least engaging local authorities, deployment of rapid mass testing... all arguably missed opportunities to avoid having to use the big hammer of national lockdown.

    Re "concessionary loans rather than grants"

    This imo is where the student loans model of loans with income-contingent repayments might be useful. HMG supports the business to keep it alive, and if said business prospers after the crisis, it pays the money back, but if it folds or limps along then the loan is written off. This would encourage owners to maintain their businesses and perhaps even invest more.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    I note Starmer apparently says Labour will support a Brexit deal. Does that mean there'll be a deal ?!
  • Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.

    You wait until the serious tax rises come.

    I've always thought he's the most overrated politician since Tony Blair. His only reflex is to fling lots of borrowed money at every problem, and not even particularly competently at that. In the next six months we'll see if I was right or not.
    Serious tax rises would be an economically illiterate absurd idea.

    Serious tax cuts would be better.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    RobD said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.

    You wait until the serious tax rises come.

    I've always thought he's the most overrated politician since Tony Blair. His only reflex is to fling lots of borrowed money at every problem, and not even particularly competently at that. In the next six months we'll see if I was right or not.
    I thought the various furlough schemes had been viewed as a success?
    I agree, many people have seen them as a success, which is why Sunak is overrated.

    I think the American approach of supporting people not zombie businesses will produce a much more dynamic recovery in the medium term.

    But, again, we'll see.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    JACK_W said:

    Denying @TheScreamingEagles an unwarranted thread first is an unqualified bigly achievement unsurpassed in the history of PB ..... said President Trump in his latest announcement to MPGGA - Make Political Betting Great Again.

    Surely MJGA - Making Jacobities Great Again?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,275
    Pulpstar said:

    I note Starmer apparently says Labour will support a Brexit deal. Does that mean there'll be a deal ?!

    Almost certainly now
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.

    You wait until the serious tax rises come.

    I've always thought he's the most overrated politician since Tony Blair. His only reflex is to fling lots of borrowed money at every problem, and not even particularly competently at that. In the next six months we'll see if I was right or not.
    Serious tax rises would be an economically illiterate absurd idea.

    Serious tax cuts would be better.
    We have to grow ourselves out of this, sure, but we should steady the ship first - I`m not sure about tax cuts.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    How fortuitous to have a photographer loitering around the Treasury

    If Priti didn't have tantrums maybe they'd be brave enough to go to the Home Office. It's not like they've got a lot to do. Here's the PM sending Christmas cards to school children.
    HYUFD said:
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,993
    Stocky said:

    Good thread Cyclefree but I`m struggling to get on board with any suggestion that involves sinking the country in an even worse financial mire than it is already in.

    I think history will reveal Sunak`s packages to be very poorly targeted - astonishingly generous to some whereas others have been left with nothing. I know people at both ends.

    Economists would point out that failing to support the sectors that were worst-hit but still fully viable after vaccination would be a false economy and would sink us into a deeper and longer mire than providing that temporary support.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Mr. Thompson, I think it was more fear they didn't have the numbers.

    But never even making the attempt was foolish.

    In such a referendum, I think it likely Remain would've won.

    The dance of the Remainer MPs in the last Parliament would have been funny if it wasn’t so serious. The twists and turns of them trying to engineer a second referendum without voting for that specific measure, and tying themselves in knots as they did so.

    Thankfully, every single one of them is now a former MP.
  • Stocky said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.

    You wait until the serious tax rises come.

    I've always thought he's the most overrated politician since Tony Blair. His only reflex is to fling lots of borrowed money at every problem, and not even particularly competently at that. In the next six months we'll see if I was right or not.
    Serious tax rises would be an economically illiterate absurd idea.

    Serious tax cuts would be better.
    We have to grow ourselves out of this, sure, but we should steady the ship first - I`m not sure about tax cuts.
    The difference between 2020 and 2007 is that there is no structural deficit this time around.

    We have a deficit not because we are structurally overspending as we were in 2007 even before the GFC hit, but because there is a pandemic and the economy is depressed.

    We couldn't "grow our way out of the deficit" in 2010 as the economy was growing and the deficit was structural. That's not the case today.

    Today the deficit is entirely due to the pandemic, it is temporal not structural. Tax cuts would allow more spending and investment and allow the economy to grow which will close the deficit. Tax rises will kick the economy while its down and strangle any chance of growth.

    If in 2-3 years we see that we do actually have a structural deficit after some sustained growth then that would be the time to look at closing the deficit. Not yet, it is too premature today.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    A friend remarked to me on the vanity of politicians: "as soon as someone tips them to be PM, they completely lose it". Sunak is definitely in that category of "the hand of history on his shoulder" nonsense.

    If you think 2020 has been a bit tricky for the UK, 2021 is going to be an economic and political hurricane.

    This time next week we will know how badly Brexit is going to hurt. Its going to be bad either way. No deal will lead to an immediate emergency, the crap deal is just going to spin out the same agony, but avoid total meltdown.

    Biden will ensure that the greatest disaster since Suez will be paid for in full measure, and the Scottish Parliamentary elections will be incredibly tricky.

    So while Sunak preens, and Johnson squirms, the shit will be hitting the fan from multiple angles.

    This time next year you will be living in a different country... I already moved.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Mr. Eagles, given there was a referendum on that matter, I'd contend a second referendum would be necessary to reverse it.

    Still baffles me that pro-EU types didn't try and slide in such in return for backing May's deal.

    Thank goodness they didn't!

    A Remain vs May's deal referendum would have been the worst of all world's. I was genuinely worried that might be the outcome at one point, I can't believe our luck that they were too hubristic to go for that.
    As a remainer (small r denotes preference, rather than adherence on ideological grounds), a second referendum was the only way out of the Loooooooooooooooong* Parliament that would actually result in... Remain.

    The problem was that the anti-Brexit politicians... well..

    1) First rule of AntiBrexit Club is that you deny there is an AnitBrexit Club
    2) It's all about process.
    3) You obstruct Brexit as much as you can
    4) In the hope that a legal case will stop it
    5) Or world war
    6) Or the Grinch will steal it
    7) Or something
    8) But actually voting in a way that makes it clear you are AntiBrexit. Oh no!

    Strangely, a lot of people got the idea that they were

    a) AntiBrexit
    b) Obstructive without purpose.

    *It seemed that way
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    rkrkrk said:

    Powerful piece. Difficult decisions for the govt certainly. Personally I agree we should keep supporting the sector.
    It might be an idea to start considering concessionary loans rather than grants?

    But difficult decisions also stem from failing to make the right decision earlier.

    A circuit breaker back in September, better isolation incentives, a test and trace system run by or at least engaging local authorities, deployment of rapid mass testing... all arguably missed opportunities to avoid having to use the big hammer of national lockdown.

    The other thing that would have avoided a second national lockdown was presenting robust data accurately, rather than graphs that fell apart after about five minutes' analysis.

    The country was tricked into the second lockdown by the second dodgy dossier in 20 years. That is what happens when you don't have independent scrutiny and public consultation, but instead make huge decisions on the basis of a couple of scary graphs.

    If this pandemic has shown anything, it's the value of public scrutiny of the government.
  • Roger said:

    HYUFD said:
    If only he had something more important to do
    And if he hadn't replied you'd have been first in line to lambast him as a heartless uncaring Tory toff.....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.

    You wait until the serious tax rises come.

    I've always thought he's the most overrated politician since Tony Blair. His only reflex is to fling lots of borrowed money at every problem, and not even particularly competently at that. In the next six months we'll see if I was right or not.
    Serious tax rises would be an economically illiterate absurd idea.

    Serious tax cuts would be better.
    Coming out of a recession is also a good time to look at the complexities of the tax system, especially as we leave the EU.

    The tax book is now so big that people can’t understand it, making things much simpler with fewer loopholes allows tax rates to drop for the same revenue, and makes everyone happy except for lawyers and accountants.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Mr. Thompson, I think it was more fear they didn't have the numbers.

    But never even making the attempt was foolish.

    In such a referendum, I think it likely Remain would've won.

    They thought that such a flat declaration of hostility to Brexit would mean they would lose their seats at the next election.

    So they hid behind procedure.

    That worked out really well.
  • Good thread, although I take issue with the need to reference "levelling up", unless you really think that that really is the Government's intent, as opposed to a PR exercise to provide a fig leaf of cover in the face of a pandemic which despite all the bluster has been allowed to widen inequalities and North-South disparities.

    You're right that the absence of grants this time is key. I'm an unpaid director of a small leisure businesses - golf course plus clubhouse bar/catering. Back in the Spring, we got a £25k targeted grant and almost as much in a business rate refund, plus a £50k loan which sorted out cash flow. This time, having been closed until July, the bar/catering was once more crippled in Tier 2 from mid October and in lockdown since 5th November with no realistic prospect of reopening until well into next year. We've got just £2k definitely, the standard amount. We might another £1k or so at the local authority's discretion for the Tier 2 effects on hospitality. And that's it.

    Comparing the support in the Spring with that recently, the difference in that level of grant support is stark and manifest and why a lot of already wounded hospitality businesses won't survive the winter. My business will get through this but only because the core golfing business had recovered well over the Summer and generated enough revenue to compensate for the collapse of the hospitality side, although the ludicrous course closure of the current 4 weeks set us back a lot. But I can see first hand how a business which derived all its revenue from hospitality would be going under by now, with no more support than we qualified for and with no light at the end of a long tunnel stretching well into 2021.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    HYUFD said:
    I hate to be a curmudgeon, but that does rather suggest one, or possibly two things:

    1. That PM Johnson doesn't know what he's talking about
    2. That Rishi is going to hand out a Christmas bonus to those on Universal Credit
  • Cicero said:

    This time next year you will be living in a different country... I already moved.

    I'm sure they'll struggle on without you.

    Which foreign climes have you condescended to bless with your sunny disposition?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    Pulpstar said:

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    FL 29 T
    GA 16 B
    NV 6 B
    ME-2 1 T
    MI 16 B
    MN 10 B
    NH 4 B
    NC 15 T
    PA 20 B
    TX 38 T
    AL 9 T
    DL 3 T
    KY 8 T
    LA 8 T
    ME 2 B
    ME-1 1 B
    MA 11 B
    NM 5 B
    ND 3 T
    OK 7 T
    SC 9 T
    SD 3 T
    UT 6 T
    VT 3 B
    VA 13 B
    WY 3 T
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  • Good morning

    I have sympathy with Cyclefree and her piece but the nature of this pandemic has been to devastate the hospitality and travel industry and, while help has been given, it was always going to have constraints with the huge demands from other sectors, not least the health and care sector

    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    On foreign aid I have no issue with reducing it, but as has been suggested some of the savings should be folded into the vaccine programmes to directly help third world countries with their own vaccinations

    On public sector pay freeze I support it purely on the grounds of fairness and expect mp's to lead by example. Additionally I would support abolishing the triple lock thereby freezing our own pension rise next year

    On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal, but our relationship with Europe will develop over many years and may eventually lead to 'de facto' membership and at the very least membership of the single market

    On Christmas I fail to understand why people just cannot see the safest thing is to treat this Christmas as if we are in lockdown and curtail family gatherings in the greater interest of all of us. No matter the four nations agreeing a convoluted number of rules for this year, my wife and I have already cancelled Christmas day for the 10 of us and will spend it on our own at our on home.

    Better safe than sorry
  • Mr. Thompson, I think it was more fear they didn't have the numbers.

    But never even making the attempt was foolish.

    In such a referendum, I think it likely Remain would've won.

    They thought that such a flat declaration of hostility to Brexit would mean they would lose their seats at the next election.

    So they hid behind procedure.

    That worked out really well.
    They thought they were cleverer than they really were.

    The public saw through them and judged them accordingly.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113

    Good morning

    I have sympathy with Cyclefree and her piece but the nature of this pandemic has been to devastate the hospitality and travel industry and, while help has been given, it was always going to have constraints with the huge demands from other sectors, not least the health and care sector

    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    On foreign aid I have no issue with reducing it, but as has been suggested some of the savings should be folded into the vaccine programmes to directly help third world countries with their own vaccinations

    On public sector pay freeze I support it purely on the grounds of fairness and expect mp's to lead by example. Additionally I would support abolishing the triple lock thereby freezing our own pension rise next year

    On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal, but our relationship with Europe will develop over many years and may eventually lead to 'de facto' membership and at the very least membership of the single market

    On Christmas I fail to understand why people just cannot see the safest thing is to treat this Christmas as if we are in lockdown and curtail family gatherings in the greater interest of all of us. No matter the four nations agreeing a convoluted number of rules for this year, my wife and I have already cancelled Christmas day for the 10 of us and will spend it on our own at our on home.

    Better safe than sorry

    Did you vote remain or leave, BigG?

  • With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    In Guernsey (now 1 COVID case, in quarantine) my experience is that hospitality is doing very well post lockdown - out for lunch yesterday with friends - packed out on a Tuesday
  • Stocky said:

    Good morning

    I have sympathy with Cyclefree and her piece but the nature of this pandemic has been to devastate the hospitality and travel industry and, while help has been given, it was always going to have constraints with the huge demands from other sectors, not least the health and care sector

    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    On foreign aid I have no issue with reducing it, but as has been suggested some of the savings should be folded into the vaccine programmes to directly help third world countries with their own vaccinations

    On public sector pay freeze I support it purely on the grounds of fairness and expect mp's to lead by example. Additionally I would support abolishing the triple lock thereby freezing our own pension rise next year

    On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal, but our relationship with Europe will develop over many years and may eventually lead to 'de facto' membership and at the very least membership of the single market

    On Christmas I fail to understand why people just cannot see the safest thing is to treat this Christmas as if we are in lockdown and curtail family gatherings in the greater interest of all of us. No matter the four nations agreeing a convoluted number of rules for this year, my wife and I have already cancelled Christmas day for the 10 of us and will spend it on our own at our on home.

    Better safe than sorry

    Did you vote remain or leave, BigG?
    Remain
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited November 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    I note Starmer apparently says Labour will support a Brexit deal. Does that mean there'll be a deal ?!

    Of course there is still the possibility of no agreement, for nothing is certain. But I not having to worry about what's happening behind his back does give Johnson more leeway on the terms he puts on the table, so he'll be better able to offer something which the EU should be prepared to agree to.
  • Pulpstar said:

    I note Starmer apparently says Labour will support a Brexit deal. Does that mean there'll be a deal ?!

    Of course there is still the possibility of no agreement, for nothing is certain. But I not having to worry about what's happening behind his back does give Johnson more leeway on the terms he puts on the table, so he'll be better able to offer something which the EU should be prepared to agree to.
    Let us hope so

  • With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    In Guernsey (now 1 COVID case, in quarantine) my experience is that hospitality is doing very well post lockdown - out for lunch yesterday with friends - packed out on a Tuesday
    That's what it will be like in the Spring here.

    It is getting through the winter that has to happen first though.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113

    Stocky said:

    Good morning

    I have sympathy with Cyclefree and her piece but the nature of this pandemic has been to devastate the hospitality and travel industry and, while help has been given, it was always going to have constraints with the huge demands from other sectors, not least the health and care sector

    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    On foreign aid I have no issue with reducing it, but as has been suggested some of the savings should be folded into the vaccine programmes to directly help third world countries with their own vaccinations

    On public sector pay freeze I support it purely on the grounds of fairness and expect mp's to lead by example. Additionally I would support abolishing the triple lock thereby freezing our own pension rise next year

    On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal, but our relationship with Europe will develop over many years and may eventually lead to 'de facto' membership and at the very least membership of the single market

    On Christmas I fail to understand why people just cannot see the safest thing is to treat this Christmas as if we are in lockdown and curtail family gatherings in the greater interest of all of us. No matter the four nations agreeing a convoluted number of rules for this year, my wife and I have already cancelled Christmas day for the 10 of us and will spend it on our own at our on home.

    Better safe than sorry

    Did you vote remain or leave, BigG?
    Remain
    Thought so, but "On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal" gave it away.
  • Pulpstar said:

    I note Starmer apparently says Labour will support a Brexit deal. Does that mean there'll be a deal ?!

    Of course there is still the possibility of no agreement, for nothing is certain. But I not having to worry about what's happening behind his back does give Johnson more leeway on the terms he puts on the table, so he'll be better able to offer something which the EU should be prepared to agree to.
    Not exactly.

    Starmer is his opposition in his front.

    Johnson absolutely will still be concerned about what is happening behind his back.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    edited November 2020
    Morning all :)

    It's probably been well picked over but I'm reminded it's 30 years since Margaret Thatcher was ousted by Conservative MPs after eleven and a half years in office and three GE wins.

    My recollection of the period was it was perhaps the most extraordinary in British politics - from the dismissal of Sir Geoffrey Howe which set in motion the chain of events leading to Thatcher's own demise it was completely addictive and yet not quite in the days of the 24/7 news cycle. The 60 hours from the declaration of the result of the first ballot to Thatcher telling her Cabinet she was going have been extensively covered in literature but still seem remarkable.

    Meanwhile, the backdrop was the likelihood of military action in the Gulf following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait and the seismic changes in Russia and Eastern Europe following the events of the previous year.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Mr. Thompson, I think it was more fear they didn't have the numbers.

    But never even making the attempt was foolish.

    In such a referendum, I think it likely Remain would've won.

    They thought that such a flat declaration of hostility to Brexit would mean they would lose their seats at the next election.

    So they hid behind procedure.

    That worked out really well.
    They thought they were cleverer than they really were.

    The public saw through them and judged them accordingly.
    No they didn’t they voted for the donkey with the blue Rosette
  • Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Good morning

    I have sympathy with Cyclefree and her piece but the nature of this pandemic has been to devastate the hospitality and travel industry and, while help has been given, it was always going to have constraints with the huge demands from other sectors, not least the health and care sector

    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    On foreign aid I have no issue with reducing it, but as has been suggested some of the savings should be folded into the vaccine programmes to directly help third world countries with their own vaccinations

    On public sector pay freeze I support it purely on the grounds of fairness and expect mp's to lead by example. Additionally I would support abolishing the triple lock thereby freezing our own pension rise next year

    On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal, but our relationship with Europe will develop over many years and may eventually lead to 'de facto' membership and at the very least membership of the single market

    On Christmas I fail to understand why people just cannot see the safest thing is to treat this Christmas as if we are in lockdown and curtail family gatherings in the greater interest of all of us. No matter the four nations agreeing a convoluted number of rules for this year, my wife and I have already cancelled Christmas day for the 10 of us and will spend it on our own at our on home.

    Better safe than sorry

    Did you vote remain or leave, BigG?
    Remain
    Thought so, but "On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal" gave it away.
    I vote remain but not with great conviction but the referendum was held and voted for, so leave we must

    I really do want a deal and at this late stage it can only be the start of years of negotiations.

    I do expect by 2024 Starmer will be advocating joining the customs union and single market and I expect that will be a popular position if we have not already done it
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    HYUFD said:
    I know we all love to take the piss out of politicians, but the simple act having someone in No.10 pick this up and reply to it will bring smiles to the face, not only of that one kid, but many more who will see the story.

    I have two young nephews who just replied to me that they’re so happy Santa will still be coming to visit a month from now, despite everything else that’s happened this year.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    HYUFD said:
    I hate to be a curmudgeon, but that does rather suggest one, or possibly two things:

    1. That PM Johnson doesn't know what he's talking about
    2. That Rishi is going to hand out a Christmas bonus to those on Universal Credit
    Dangerous to promise presents to some kid he knows nothing about who’s parents are more worried about feeding them, can you imagine Xmas morning’ but boris promised me......’
  • Good morning

    I have sympathy with Cyclefree and her piece but the nature of this pandemic has been to devastate the hospitality and travel industry and, while help has been given, it was always going to have constraints with the huge demands from other sectors, not least the health and care sector

    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    On foreign aid I have no issue with reducing it, but as has been suggested some of the savings should be folded into the vaccine programmes to directly help third world countries with their own vaccinations

    On public sector pay freeze I support it purely on the grounds of fairness and expect mp's to lead by example. Additionally I would support abolishing the triple lock thereby freezing our own pension rise next year

    On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal, but our relationship with Europe will develop over many years and may eventually lead to 'de facto' membership and at the very least membership of the single market

    On Christmas I fail to understand why people just cannot see the safest thing is to treat this Christmas as if we are in lockdown and curtail family gatherings in the greater interest of all of us. No matter the four nations agreeing a convoluted number of rules for this year, my wife and I have already cancelled Christmas day for the 10 of us and will spend it on our own at our on home.

    Better safe than sorry

    Excellent post, much to agree with and a reminder that there are many decent Conservatives despite the populist lot in charge. You are definitely right on Christmas, although it is not impossible you might be vaccinated by then which could give you more options.
  • Stocky said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.

    You wait until the serious tax rises come.

    I've always thought he's the most overrated politician since Tony Blair. His only reflex is to fling lots of borrowed money at every problem, and not even particularly competently at that. In the next six months we'll see if I was right or not.
    Serious tax rises would be an economically illiterate absurd idea.

    Serious tax cuts would be better.
    We have to grow ourselves out of this, sure, but we should steady the ship first - I`m not sure about tax cuts.
    The difference between 2020 and 2007 is that there is no structural deficit this time around.

    We have a deficit not because we are structurally overspending as we were in 2007 even before the GFC hit, but because there is a pandemic and the economy is depressed.

    We couldn't "grow our way out of the deficit" in 2010 as the economy was growing and the deficit was structural. That's not the case today.

    Today the deficit is entirely due to the pandemic, it is temporal not structural. Tax cuts would allow more spending and investment and allow the economy to grow which will close the deficit. Tax rises will kick the economy while its down and strangle any chance of growth.

    If in 2-3 years we see that we do actually have a structural deficit after some sustained growth then that would be the time to look at closing the deficit. Not yet, it is too premature today.
    I think what you meant to say was that the difference between 2020 and 2007 is that they can't blame it on the Labour Party.
    Cyclically adjusted borrowing in 2006 was 3.0% of GDP. In 2019 was 2.5% of GDP. That 0.5% difference is a very small number on which to claim that the entire fiscal outlook is different, especially as debt was 33% of GDP in 2006 and 87% of GDP in 2019. I have tried to educate you on this subject before...
  • Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    I know we all love to take the piss out of politicians, but the simple act having someone in No.10 pick this up and reply to it will bring smiles to the face, not only of that one kid, but many more who will see the story.

    I have two young nephews who just replied to me that they’re so happy Santa will still be coming to visit a month from now, despite everything else that’s happened this year.
    We've been getting familiar with magical creature's PPE procedures in the Thompson household.

    My daughter lost her first tooth earlier this year, she wasn't concerned that the Tooth Fairy would be able to visit as she informed us that the Tooth Fairy would be wearing a mask and gloves. After a little bit of crafting by my wife, our daughter woke up the next morning to find a pound coin and a fairy-sized facemask with glitter on it that the Tooth Fairy must have dropped while visiting.

    Tuesday next week we're due to have two little Elves come live on our shelves for 24 days. I'm going to hazard a guess they might bring some form of PPE with them on the 1st December too.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    I think we can all assume hospitality will do very well once restrictions (especially social distancing) end sometime next year and there is clearly huge pent-up demand for everyone to "go out and have a good time".

    I've suggested the Government puts up a couple of additional public holidays next year to encourage us even further to go out and spend (it's not about enjoyment really, it's about spending money in and around the hospitality sector).

    There will be, at least for a while, a big feel-good surge. I'm looking forward to going racing and I'm sure the likes of Plumpton and Lingfield are looking forward to me forking over £20 to watch an afternoon of tenth-rate jumping. Ah, the cost of everything but the value of nothing mentality at work,

    Longer term, what will be the changes that Covid brings? Working from Home is here to stay - of that I've no doubt. Given a choice between getting up in the cold and dark, trudging to the station, bus stop or tube station or having an extra hour in bed and a leisurely breakfast in the warmth, I know what I'll go for every time but apparently a freezing cold, costly and stressful journey to and from work is more than offset by the social time I spend with my equally grumpy colleagues because it's all about "mental health" (apparently).

    I'd also like to think for all those desperate to return to a pre-Covid life and forget 2020 ever happened, there are also many for whom the experience has allowed the opportunity to re-evaluate themselves and their priorities in life.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I note Starmer apparently says Labour will support a Brexit deal. Does that mean there'll be a deal ?!

    Almost certainly now
    The future is always certain. It is only the past that keeps changing.
  • nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:
    I hate to be a curmudgeon, but that does rather suggest one, or possibly two things:

    1. That PM Johnson doesn't know what he's talking about
    2. That Rishi is going to hand out a Christmas bonus to those on Universal Credit
    Dangerous to promise presents to some kid he knows nothing about who’s parents are more worried about feeding them, can you imagine Xmas morning’ but boris promised me......’
    Boris gave the sly politicians' answer: Overall Santa will be delivering pressies in line with government expectations, but I'm not going to comment on specific cases.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Thompson, I think it was more fear they didn't have the numbers.

    But never even making the attempt was foolish.

    In such a referendum, I think it likely Remain would've won.

    The dance of the Remainer MPs in the last Parliament would have been funny if it wasn’t so serious. The twists and turns of them trying to engineer a second referendum without voting for that specific measure, and tying themselves in knots as they did so.

    Thankfully, every single one of them is now a former MP.
    Leaving such talent in charge a real victory!
  • HYUFD said:
    Higher taxes are always popular with individuals if they are to the disbenefit of others (people that are richer than they). I have always thought there should be a voluntary tax, to enable those that believe in higher taxes to show a genuine commitment. If a majority participate it can then be rolled out to others.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
      
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I note Starmer apparently says Labour will support a Brexit deal. Does that mean there'll be a deal ?!

    Almost certainly now
    The future is always certain. It is only the past that keeps changing.
    Walking backwards to Xmas, over the Irish sea.

  • Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    I know we all love to take the piss out of politicians, but the simple act having someone in No.10 pick this up and reply to it will bring smiles to the face, not only of that one kid, but many more who will see the story.

    I have two young nephews who just replied to me that they’re so happy Santa will still be coming to visit a month from now, despite everything else that’s happened this year.
    And in the households where Santa can't afford much this year? Raising peoples hopes, but never having to deal with the outcome, a familiar ploy from Boris.

    If its backed up by news of an extension of the uplift in universal credit, or a xmas bonus, great, otherwise its promising things to kids with other peoples money.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    stodge said:

    I think we can all assume hospitality will do very well once restrictions (especially social distancing) end sometime next year and there is clearly huge pent-up demand for everyone to "go out and have a good time".

    I've suggested the Government puts up a couple of additional public holidays next year to encourage us even further to go out and spend (it's not about enjoyment really, it's about spending money in and around the hospitality sector).

    There will be, at least for a while, a big feel-good surge. I'm looking forward to going racing and I'm sure the likes of Plumpton and Lingfield are looking forward to me forking over £20 to watch an afternoon of tenth-rate jumping. Ah, the cost of everything but the value of nothing mentality at work,

    Longer term, what will be the changes that Covid brings? Working from Home is here to stay - of that I've no doubt. Given a choice between getting up in the cold and dark, trudging to the station, bus stop or tube station or having an extra hour in bed and a leisurely breakfast in the warmth, I know what I'll go for every time but apparently a freezing cold, costly and stressful journey to and from work is more than offset by the social time I spend with my equally grumpy colleagues because it's all about "mental health" (apparently).

    I'd also like to think for all those desperate to return to a pre-Covid life and forget 2020 ever happened, there are also many for whom the experience has allowed the opportunity to re-evaluate themselves and their priorities in life.

    Re: priorities in life - when do you think we can look forward to lap-dancing clubs opening gain, Stodge?
  • Good morning

    I have sympathy with Cyclefree and her piece but the nature of this pandemic has been to devastate the hospitality and travel industry and, while help has been given, it was always going to have constraints with the huge demands from other sectors, not least the health and care sector

    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    On foreign aid I have no issue with reducing it, but as has been suggested some of the savings should be folded into the vaccine programmes to directly help third world countries with their own vaccinations

    On public sector pay freeze I support it purely on the grounds of fairness and expect mp's to lead by example. Additionally I would support abolishing the triple lock thereby freezing our own pension rise next year

    On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal, but our relationship with Europe will develop over many years and may eventually lead to 'de facto' membership and at the very least membership of the single market

    On Christmas I fail to understand why people just cannot see the safest thing is to treat this Christmas as if we are in lockdown and curtail family gatherings in the greater interest of all of us. No matter the four nations agreeing a convoluted number of rules for this year, my wife and I have already cancelled Christmas day for the 10 of us and will spend it on our own at our on home.

    Better safe than sorry

    Excellent post, much to agree with and a reminder that there are many decent Conservatives despite the populist lot in charge. You are definitely right on Christmas, although it is not impossible you might be vaccinated by then which could give you more options.
    Thank you but even with a vaccination we would be cautious for this year
  • Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    I know we all love to take the piss out of politicians, but the simple act having someone in No.10 pick this up and reply to it will bring smiles to the face, not only of that one kid, but many more who will see the story.

    I have two young nephews who just replied to me that they’re so happy Santa will still be coming to visit a month from now, despite everything else that’s happened this year.
    Personally, I feel uncomfortable about this kind of tweet from a PM. By all means reply to the kid personally, but don't tweet about it. We've got 500 dying a day from this thing, and I do think leaders need to present in a serious way for serious times. I do also just think tweeting about it rather spoils the gesture, turning a nice personal response to a child who has written in into a PR stunt.

    That's not a particular criticism of Johnson, by the way. I think his predecessors of both parties would have done the same. It just leaves a bad taste for me, that's all.
  • FPT:
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Labour have little choice but to back the deal and hang it round Shagger's neck like the albatross it is. As the alternative - no deal - would be at least a little worse than whatever deal he agrees, its a question of how badly we lose not whether we lose at all.

    If Labour voted against then it would have a Hard Time in the former red wall seats. However, voting for a deal that will sink whats left of industry in the red wall isn't going to be a vote winner either so portraying it as the "Boris Brexit" is critical. If as openly suggested by Nissan they shut their factory Labour need to show that the Tories willfully lied to everyone about an oven ready deal to make things better.

    Wasn't that suggestion predicated on No Deal?
    No. Predicated on a deal that makes its business non-viable. Stick 10% tariff on car bits and mega delays at the port doing all the paperwork and thats enough. At least according to their COO - what does he know?

    "Having said that, if we are not getting the current tariffs, it's not our intention but the business will not be sustainable. That's what everybody has to understand."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54986195
    Given we'd be negotiating a FTA it'd be odd to still have tariffs, don't you think?
    No! If we are replacing today's free trade tariff-free EEA deal with an identical free trade tariff-free deal then it would be odd. But we are not. We will still have tariffs destroying large swathes of industry.
  • stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    It's probably been well picked over but I'm reminded it's 30 years since Margaret Thatcher was ousted by Conservative MPs after eleven and a half years in office and three GE wins.

    My recollection of the period was it was perhaps the most extraordinary in British politics - from the dismissal of Sir Geoffrey Howe which set in motion the chain of events leading to Thatcher's own demise it was completely addictive and yet not quite in the days of the 24/7 news cycle. The 60 hours from the declaration of the result of the first ballot to Thatcher telling her Cabinet she was going have been extensively covered in literature but still seem remarkable.

    Meanwhile, the backdrop was the likelihood of military action in the Gulf following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait and the seismic changes in Russia and Eastern Europe following the events of the previous year.

    I remember my instant reaction when someone popped into a meeting with "Thatcher's gone" - "the barstewards have finally done for her".

    Those who did not live through the whole premiership seem to view Thatcher only through the prism of Falklands/Miners Strike/Poll Tax - ignorant of her precarious early years "it was only a matter of time before a man someone more sensible/less divisive/not as shrill (delete as appropriate) replaced her" was the received wisdom.
  • Stocky said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wouldn’t want to be in the Chancellor’s shoes today. Anything that’s not directly related to pandemic spending is likely to be under serious review. After riding a wave of relative popularity, he’s now going to disappoint almost everyone to some degree.

    You wait until the serious tax rises come.

    I've always thought he's the most overrated politician since Tony Blair. His only reflex is to fling lots of borrowed money at every problem, and not even particularly competently at that. In the next six months we'll see if I was right or not.
    Serious tax rises would be an economically illiterate absurd idea.

    Serious tax cuts would be better.
    We have to grow ourselves out of this, sure, but we should steady the ship first - I`m not sure about tax cuts.
    The difference between 2020 and 2007 is that there is no structural deficit this time around.

    We have a deficit not because we are structurally overspending as we were in 2007 even before the GFC hit, but because there is a pandemic and the economy is depressed.

    We couldn't "grow our way out of the deficit" in 2010 as the economy was growing and the deficit was structural. That's not the case today.

    Today the deficit is entirely due to the pandemic, it is temporal not structural. Tax cuts would allow more spending and investment and allow the economy to grow which will close the deficit. Tax rises will kick the economy while its down and strangle any chance of growth.

    If in 2-3 years we see that we do actually have a structural deficit after some sustained growth then that would be the time to look at closing the deficit. Not yet, it is too premature today.
    I think what you meant to say was that the difference between 2020 and 2007 is that they can't blame it on the Labour Party.
    Cyclically adjusted borrowing in 2006 was 3.0% of GDP. In 2019 was 2.5% of GDP. That 0.5% difference is a very small number on which to claim that the entire fiscal outlook is different, especially as debt was 33% of GDP in 2006 and 87% of GDP in 2019. I have tried to educate you on this subject before...
    Because your claim is bullshit. 2019/20 was after the recession hit.

    It was 1.2% in 2018/19 and that was down on what it was the year before and had come down every year for a decade. In 2016/17 it was significantly higher and needlessly so since it had been a surplus just a few years earlier but that surplus had been frittered into a deficit during years of growth.

    Debt to GDP isn't the relevant factor. The deficit is the relevant factor. Debt to GDP will go up if there is too big of a deficit, it will go down if there is a small enough deficit or a surplus. Look after the deficit and the debt will look after itself.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Good morning

    I have sympathy with Cyclefree and her piece but the nature of this pandemic has been to devastate the hospitality and travel industry and, while help has been given, it was always going to have constraints with the huge demands from other sectors, not least the health and care sector

    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    On foreign aid I have no issue with reducing it, but as has been suggested some of the savings should be folded into the vaccine programmes to directly help third world countries with their own vaccinations

    On public sector pay freeze I support it purely on the grounds of fairness and expect mp's to lead by example. Additionally I would support abolishing the triple lock thereby freezing our own pension rise next year

    On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal, but our relationship with Europe will develop over many years and may eventually lead to 'de facto' membership and at the very least membership of the single market

    On Christmas I fail to understand why people just cannot see the safest thing is to treat this Christmas as if we are in lockdown and curtail family gatherings in the greater interest of all of us. No matter the four nations agreeing a convoluted number of rules for this year, my wife and I have already cancelled Christmas day for the 10 of us and will spend it on our own at our on home.

    Better safe than sorry

    Excellent post, much to agree with and a reminder that there are many decent Conservatives despite the populist lot in charge. You are definitely right on Christmas, although it is not impossible you might be vaccinated by then which could give you more options.
    Thank you but even with a vaccination we would be cautious for this year
    I don't think it is possible for vaccination to alter things for Christmas. There needs to be a second jab 4 weeks later, then a week or so for the effect.

    The first tranche can plan for Burns Night instead, or Valentines Day for the less whisky inclined.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    I know we all love to take the piss out of politicians, but the simple act having someone in No.10 pick this up and reply to it will bring smiles to the face, not only of that one kid, but many more who will see the story.

    I have two young nephews who just replied to me that they’re so happy Santa will still be coming to visit a month from now, despite everything else that’s happened this year.
    Personally, I feel uncomfortable about this kind of tweet from a PM. By all means reply to the kid personally, but don't tweet about it. We've got 500 dying a day from this thing, and I do think leaders need to present in a serious way for serious times. I do also just think tweeting about it rather spoils the gesture, turning a nice personal response to a child who has written in into a PR stunt.

    That's not a particular criticism of Johnson, by the way. I think his predecessors of both parties would have done the same. It just leaves a bad taste for me, that's all.
    Predecessors of both parties have had a long tradition of replying to picked children letters. And publicising the letters and the replies.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483


    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    In Guernsey (now 1 COVID case, in quarantine) my experience is that hospitality is doing very well post lockdown - out for lunch yesterday with friends - packed out on a Tuesday
    That's what it will be like in the Spring here.

    It is getting through the winter that has to happen first though.
    You have a lot of faith in the manufacture, distribution and administration of a vaccine in numbers to make any difference by the summer let alone spring. It’s not as if no other major events are happening.
  • @Cyclefree - regarding your 3rd point; "It is pointless having spent money to support the sector until now and withdraw it at this point. That is a waste of money ..."

    That sort of approach is very "British Govt" and has been for years, decades and possibly centuries. They always spend just enough to get something going, but never enough to sustain it or do it well.
  • novanova Posts: 690

    HYUFD said:
    Higher taxes are always popular with individuals if they are to the disbenefit of others (people that are richer than they). I have always thought there should be a voluntary tax, to enable those that believe in higher taxes to show a genuine commitment. If a majority participate it can then be rolled out to others.
    Ans yet, aren't Tory voters now skewed towards people with lower incomes?

    This suggests that those who can afford to pay *may* be more likely to want higher taxes.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    I know we all love to take the piss out of politicians, but the simple act having someone in No.10 pick this up and reply to it will bring smiles to the face, not only of that one kid, but many more who will see the story.

    I have two young nephews who just replied to me that they’re so happy Santa will still be coming to visit a month from now, despite everything else that’s happened this year.
    We've been getting familiar with magical creature's PPE procedures in the Thompson household.

    My daughter lost her first tooth earlier this year, she wasn't concerned that the Tooth Fairy would be able to visit as she informed us that the Tooth Fairy would be wearing a mask and gloves. After a little bit of crafting by my wife, our daughter woke up the next morning to find a pound coin and a fairy-sized facemask with glitter on it that the Tooth Fairy must have dropped while visiting.

    Tuesday next week we're due to have two little Elves come live on our shelves for 24 days. I'm going to hazard a guess they might bring some form of PPE with them on the 1st December too.
    The local Big Yellow storage facility has a large illuminated sign saying "Self Storage"

    Every Christmas, they cut the power to the first "S"

    It makes small children happy....
  • Its a great piece @Cyclefree and I am so sorry for those of you in the industry which appears now to be truly sunk. Sadly the answers to most of your questions appear to be either "because they can" or "because they are stupid enough to not know any better".

    If it safe for 3 families to get drunk for Christmas at home then it is safe for them to get drunk together in the pub. Which as you point out is likely a lot cleaner and more controlled an environment. Yet for most of the country going to the pub as 3 families will be illegal. The hypocrisy in the regulations has been there from the start and sadly they aren't learning any lessons.

    Is 3 families so that he can have the technology consultant and the musician round over Christmas...?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    I know we all love to take the piss out of politicians, but the simple act having someone in No.10 pick this up and reply to it will bring smiles to the face, not only of that one kid, but many more who will see the story.

    I have two young nephews who just replied to me that they’re so happy Santa will still be coming to visit a month from now, despite everything else that’s happened this year.
    And in the households where Santa can't afford much this year? Raising peoples hopes, but never having to deal with the outcome, a familiar ploy from Boris.

    If its backed up by news of an extension of the uplift in universal credit, or a xmas bonus, great, otherwise its promising things to kids with other peoples money.
    I thought we had settled on the fact that Santa is a reactionary extremist with extensive criminal behaviour, including child protection issues. And almost certainly runs a xenophobic sweatshop.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    On the previous thread I gave a couple of examples about how we are failing to deal with Covid. The example was my daughter returned from France yesterday. She spent the morning wandering around terminal 5 (thought it was brilliant) and then using public transport to return to Dundee so that she could self isolate for 2 weeks whilst her partner continues to deliver food to vulnerable, shielding customers. This is irrational.

    The second example was my nephew who hasn't been tested despite having 5 of 8 flatmates being positive for the virus because he has no symptoms. When are we ever going to come to grips with asymptomatic transmission? He has to self isolate but my daughter's partner doesn't. This is irrational.

    A third and broader example is in @Cyclefree's thread header. Instead of using highly regulated, properly equipped hospitality venues we are allowing people to get together in house parties of up to 6 with no masks, no social distancing, nothing. This is irrational.

    We also have a situation in Scotland where the entire country is at least 1 and typically 2 bands higher than it should be going on the published infection rates in the community. The economic consequences of this are horrendous but barely discussed. If the original banding is thought to be too high change it. But for goodness sake don't give explanations which MAKE NO SENSE AT ALL ON THE KNOWN FACTS.

    We have simply not got to grip with what works and what doesn't. That is why we let people go abroad on holiday this year. That is why we can't make up our mind whether to allow people into their offices or not but think its ok for them to be on building sites.

    I am not saying that this is easy or that people have been stupid (much). I am conscious that it is very easy sitting on a laptop to skip over inconvenient facts and uncertainties. But I want our governments to get a grip. That means that Christmas lunch is safer in a restaurant than in a house. It means that we need to test all those who have suffered serious exposure whether they have symptoms or not. And it means we don't stop businesses that can operate safely from carrying on their trade.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    I know we all love to take the piss out of politicians, but the simple act having someone in No.10 pick this up and reply to it will bring smiles to the face, not only of that one kid, but many more who will see the story.

    I have two young nephews who just replied to me that they’re so happy Santa will still be coming to visit a month from now, despite everything else that’s happened this year.
    And in the households where Santa can't afford much this year? Raising peoples hopes, but never having to deal with the outcome, a familiar ploy from Boris.

    If its backed up by news of an extension of the uplift in universal credit, or a xmas bonus, great, otherwise its promising things to kids with other peoples money.
    I thought we had settled on the fact that Santa is a reactionary extremist with extensive criminal behaviour, including child protection issues. And almost certainly runs a xenophobic sweatshop.
    Isn't he a superspreader?

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Once again, we see the old line trotted out there's no problem a tax cut can't resolve.

    I suppose the logical conclusion is we'd have no problems at all if we didn't pay any taxes.
  • Scott_xP said:
    "Check, Change, Go". You can check that HMG doesn't know what will happen, you can't change as the systems you may or many not need to use don't yet exist, and nothing will go unless all of the paperwork gets thrown in the bin.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    Roger said:

    How fortuitous to have a photographer loitering around the Treasury

    If Priti didn't have tantrums maybe they'd be brave enough to go to the Home Office. It's not like they've got a lot to do. Here's the PM sending Christmas cards to school children.

    HYUFD said:
    Oh come on. I don't doubt Borid is lazy and/or manages his time very unproductively, but i really doubt it takes up much time for his staff to select a letter and draft a response for him to review on such a matter. Even during a crisis non crisis things will happen.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    It's probably been well picked over but I'm reminded it's 30 years since Margaret Thatcher was ousted by Conservative MPs after eleven and a half years in office and three GE wins.

    My recollection of the period was it was perhaps the most extraordinary in British politics - from the dismissal of Sir Geoffrey Howe which set in motion the chain of events leading to Thatcher's own demise it was completely addictive and yet not quite in the days of the 24/7 news cycle. The 60 hours from the declaration of the result of the first ballot to Thatcher telling her Cabinet she was going have been extensively covered in literature but still seem remarkable.

    Meanwhile, the backdrop was the likelihood of military action in the Gulf following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait and the seismic changes in Russia and Eastern Europe following the events of the previous year.

    I remember my instant reaction when someone popped into a meeting with "Thatcher's gone" - "the barstewards have finally done for her".

    Those who did not live through the whole premiership seem to view Thatcher only through the prism of Falklands/Miners Strike/Poll Tax - ignorant of her precarious early years "it was only a matter of time before a man someone more sensible/less divisive/not as shrill (delete as appropriate) replaced her" was the received wisdom.
    I way staying in a cheap backpackers in Borneo when I heard the news that Thatcher was going. In those pre Internet days, there was little news to follow there. The owner came into the hostel lounge with a shocked face and announced the news to a dozen or so of us assorted travellers, from Britain, Australia, Germany, Netherlands and France. The owner was even more shocked as the guests rose in a spontaneous cheer!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Good morning

    I have sympathy with Cyclefree and her piece but the nature of this pandemic has been to devastate the hospitality and travel industry and, while help has been given, it was always going to have constraints with the huge demands from other sectors, not least the health and care sector

    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    On foreign aid I have no issue with reducing it, but as has been suggested some of the savings should be folded into the vaccine programmes to directly help third world countries with their own vaccinations

    On public sector pay freeze I support it purely on the grounds of fairness and expect mp's to lead by example. Additionally I would support abolishing the triple lock thereby freezing our own pension rise next year

    On Brexit a deal is really needed, indeed as far as I am concerned any deal, but our relationship with Europe will develop over many years and may eventually lead to 'de facto' membership and at the very least membership of the single market

    On Christmas I fail to understand why people just cannot see the safest thing is to treat this Christmas as if we are in lockdown and curtail family gatherings in the greater interest of all of us. No matter the four nations agreeing a convoluted number of rules for this year, my wife and I have already cancelled Christmas day for the 10 of us and will spend it on our own at our on home.

    Better safe than sorry

    On the cancelling Christmas - yes, it is the sensible thing to do. From your perceptive and mine.

    However, to a large number of people in the country, not having the big family gathering etc *is* a *personal* crisis.

    I've mentioned previously a friend, who despite being in a risk group, broke lockdown all the way through. His life is defined by "having people round", "a good party". *Not* socialising en-mass, is for him, a torment.
  • nichomar said:


    With the vaccine on the horizon let us all hope that by mid 2021 these industries will see a sharp uptake in demand and begin their road to recovery

    In Guernsey (now 1 COVID case, in quarantine) my experience is that hospitality is doing very well post lockdown - out for lunch yesterday with friends - packed out on a Tuesday
    That's what it will be like in the Spring here.

    It is getting through the winter that has to happen first though.
    You have a lot of faith in the manufacture, distribution and administration of a vaccine in numbers to make any difference by the summer let alone spring. It’s not as if no other major events are happening.
    You're right I do.

    This is a matter of national security and the military have been quite rightly drafted in to deal with the logistics. We are in a war against COVID right now, we are running a wartime budget deficit and as a matter of national security the military must do whatever it takes to ensure the logistics of vaccine rollout are implemented in full.

    I have every reason to be confident they will succeed.

    My suspicion is that Valentine's Day is the day to be optimistic for life to begin to phase back to normal. Valentine's Day fortunately is a key celebration for couples who will not need to be socially distanced from each other. So if every region can be in Tier 2 or below by that point then restaurants should be able to sell out every single table they can squeeze in to a couple.

    By Mothers Day I'm reasonably optimistic that most of the country will be in Tier 1 or below.

    By June I think the Tiers will be behind us and the pandemic will be essentially over.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    I know we all love to take the piss out of politicians, but the simple act having someone in No.10 pick this up and reply to it will bring smiles to the face, not only of that one kid, but many more who will see the story.

    I have two young nephews who just replied to me that they’re so happy Santa will still be coming to visit a month from now, despite everything else that’s happened this year.
    Personally, I feel uncomfortable about this kind of tweet from a PM. By all means reply to the kid personally, but don't tweet about it. We've got 500 dying a day from this thing, and I do think leaders need to present in a serious way for serious times. I do also just think tweeting about it rather spoils the gesture, turning a nice personal response to a child who has written in into a PR stunt.

    That's not a particular criticism of Johnson, by the way. I think his predecessors of both parties would have done the same. It just leaves a bad taste for me, that's all.
    Predecessors of both parties have had a long tradition of replying to picked children letters. And publicising the letters and the replies.
    Well exactly. This a prime example of artificial and confected outrage (not so much from Sir Norfolk) which just goes over the top and l distracts from actually serious criticisms that the man fully deserves. It drives me mad.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,872
    stodge said:

    Once again, we see the old line trotted out there's no problem a tax cut can't resolve.

    I suppose the logical conclusion is we'd have no problems at all if we didn't pay any taxes.

    Seems that way sometimes . And its because they are too afraid to upset the public with taxes even if it would be fully justified in the circumstances.
This discussion has been closed.