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As the COVID crisis continues there’s a decline in public confidence in the NHS’s ability to cope –

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 19 in General
imageAs the COVID crisis continues there’s a decline in public confidence in the NHS’s ability to cope – politicalbetting.com

Throughout the COVID crisis Ipsos MORI has been carrying out regular surveys when the same questions are asked in the same manner so we can look at the trends. The latest polling shows:

Read the full story here

«134567

Comments

  • ClippPClippP Posts: 491
    First
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,341
    The first serious issues for the religion which is the NHS?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    Finally, people starting to realise the NHS isn't infallible?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 58,286
    Sandpit said:

    Finally, people starting to realise the NHS isn't infallible?

    Maybe, or just that they think it's under that much pressure even it cannot cope.

    But being less sentimental about it would help in the long run.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,331
    I could say that unless you are wheeled in with a bone sticking out of your leg/arm/etc, when the immediate care can be excellent, then the NHS is useless.

    But they can be useless post-op in those situations also.
  • Curse of the new thread. FPT.
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,341
    edited November 19
    Having had two different cancers treated to where I'm told I'm 'considered to be clear' I would absolutely disagree with the description of useless.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,331
    edited November 19
    fpt for @state_go_away

    OK what a fantastic way to spend a morning - thinking of good books to read!

    One corner of global events that I found extremely interesting is/was first the Rwandan massacres and then leading on to the issue of child soldiers and in particular the LRA.

    These I found extremely engaging.

    Romeo Dallaire - amazing and of course first hand knowledge.
    Shake Hands with the Devil
    They Fight Like Soldiers, They Die Like Children

    Paul Rusesabagina - the film of course was made of this, and he's in the news again now.
    An Ordinary Man

    Emmanuel Jal
    Warchild

    Ishmael Beah
    A Long Way Home

    And then more general:
    The Lord's Resistance Army - Myth and Reality, Ed Tim Allen & Koen Vlassenroot
    The Wizard of the NIle, Matthew Green (about Joseph Kony)

    Plenty of others I'm sure but those are very "enjoyable".
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,454
    FPT
    Prof Carl Heneghan & Tom Jefferson "Landmark Danish study shows face masks have no significant effect"

    Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.

    Concludes:
    And now that we have properly rigorous scientific research we can rely on, the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/do-masks-stop-the-spread-of-covid-19-
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 6,520

    Any books to recommend to order and read over Christmas - i like non- fiction over fiction (except where the fiction is related to subjects I like ) - subjects I like are

    Politics (no surprise!)
    Gambling (again no surprise being on a website like this ! - prefer gambling individual or bookie stories as opposed to how to win books)
    London (have a growing collection of London books)
    Railways (not an avid trainspotter but love the lifestyle of trains )
    Gothic stuff
    History (medium rather than high brow though)
    Sport ( not bios generally but more general stuff about sport- love sport stats !)

    From previous thread.
    Looking forward to seeing what this generates.
    Some non-fiction I liked this year:

    Bad Blood (10/10) - gripping, very fast-paced read of the dumpster fire that was Theranos. Some political themes - but more about business/ethics than politics.
    Shoe Dog (8/10) - memoir of Nike co-founder. Got some interesting sports themes, famous namedrops and also fascinating to see how much America has changed in 50 odd years or so. Not the greatest writing, but definitely gives you a sense of the urgency and pressure they felt. At times a little implausible, but a good read.
    The Shoemaker and his Daughter (9/10) - one family's true story to survive and thrive set in Soviet Russia and Siberia. Not highbrow history.
    Nigel Farage - the purple revolution: the year that changed everything (7/10) - there's something about Nigel Farage that I find a little bit fascinating. It's pretty entertaining and it does give a good sense of how Farage views things, or how he wants to be viewed. A quick read. Available at charity shops if you don't want to make a contribution to Nige! Excellent for winding people up by placing prominently on a bookshelf.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 268
    Gabriel Debenedetti of the "New York Magazine" gives a fascinating insight into the data analytics of the Biden campaign as the election loomed, November 3rd and the days following :

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/11/election-night-with-bidens-data-guru.html
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,311
    Distrust in Johnson's government is just spreading to everything they're responsible for and with good reason.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 58,286
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Its the Express so....you know the deal, but...they say oxford will reveal results tomorrow....of Phase 2 ;-)

    Fuck me but it's 23 years since she died and they're STILL on about Diana?
    More worryingly, they must do so because people still want to read about it.
    The Diana story is the Bashir story. It's been in all the papers for days.
    Yes I know, it still is hardly front page stuff.
    Disagree. BBC commits criminal forgery to entrap vulnerable woman into hugely damaging interview. It would be cataclysmic if it were about Jane Doe or Mrs Mohammed. It is getting a paradoxical free ride because people just think "Ah, more Dianaballs."
    Alright, but you need to factor time decay into it. It was 25 years ago, and the interviewee is long, long dead.

    It's really much less important than they think it is.
    Exactly. That's why it's a story, but not a huge one.

    And I find the idea it would be as big a news if it were Jane Doe to be utterly laughable. People get screwed over and organisations make errors all the time and it makes news, but not Diana level news.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 58,286

    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
    It doesn't seem the solution to that is to abandon the playing field altogether.
  • kle4 said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
    It doesn't seem the solution to that is to abandon the playing field altogether.
    No it may not be but it answers Roy G Biv's question.

    What the solution is, is another debate. But the simple fact is what we are doing and what the Chinese are doing are two completely different methods.


  • How come they had such a battle over a few £100 million to feed kids but this money just plops out of thin air?
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  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
    Preventing China from benefiting from its strings is a benefit for the whole of the liberal, capitalist, democratic world. Ceding that space completely to them is not a good idea.
    There's a danger here of the same kind of short-sightedness you get in some US Republican circles about military aid. Defending Lithuania is not transactional; Lithuania will never be able to defend the US to the same extent it benefits from the US umbrella, but that doesn't mean it's not in the strong interests of the US to contain Russia. It's all about front lines, not just geographical but also ethical, ideological, and political. Better to be defending our way of life far, far from home than to have the barbarians at the gate. It doesn't show up on the balance sheet as a credit, but that's merely an artefact of what is measurable.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 3,282
    Only three weeks back the Government talked up the new lockdown on the basis of what are now known to be wholly false projections that it used to assert that the NHS would otherwise be unable to cope.

    Yet the % thinking that the NHS will not be able to cope only ticked up by about 4% on the back of that.

    So a few are still prepared to take the Government at their word, and most are not. What this polling shows is that the vast majority of the UK population have decided that our Government can't be trusted to level with those it governs in a national emergency. It was very different back in early Spring.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 6,520
    geoffw said:

    FPT
    Prof Carl Heneghan & Tom Jefferson "Landmark Danish study shows face masks have no significant effect"

    Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.

    Concludes:
    And now that we have properly rigorous scientific research we can rely on, the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/do-masks-stop-the-spread-of-covid-19-

    1) they are misstating what the study says
    2) more importantly -> the idea behind masks is not primarily to protect the wearer, but to protect others from the wearer if the wearer is infectious.

    The actual study says: "The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection."
    https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,860
    (FPT)
    geoffw said:

    Prof Carl Heneghan & Tom Jefferson "Landmark Danish study shows face masks have no significant effect"

    Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.

    Concludes:
    And now that we have properly rigorous scientific research we can rely on, the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/do-masks-stop-the-spread-of-covid-19-

    It's very far from rigorous.

    There's an extensive critique of the paper here:

    Letter of concern regarding »Reduction in COVID-19 infection using surgical facial masks outside the healthcare system«
    https://ugeskriftet.dk/dmj/letter-concern-regarding-reduction-covid-19-infection-using-surgical-facial-masks-outside-healthcare
    ...This study poses a serious risk of mistranslation, in part due to misleading statements about what the study actually measures in the protocol paper and trial registration. To most decision-makers, null or too-small effects will be misinterpreted to mean that masks are ineffective. However, the more accurate translation is that this study is uninformative regarding the benefits (or lack thereof) of wearing masks outside of the healthcare setting. As such, we caution decision-makers and the media from interpreting the results of this trial as being anything other than artifacts of weak design.

    There were similar warnings about the trial long before the results came out:
  • geoffw said:

    FPT
    Prof Carl Heneghan & Tom Jefferson "Landmark Danish study shows face masks have no significant effect"

    Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.

    Concludes:
    And now that we have properly rigorous scientific research we can rely on, the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/do-masks-stop-the-spread-of-covid-19-

    Maybe, maybe not. According to the study quoted there was a 10% reduction in transmission in the mask group than the control group so seems to be an issue needing further research.

    Plus it doesn't address a plethora of other studies that show that there seems to be a significant variolation effect from mask wearing that means if you wear a mask regularly and catch COVID then you could start with a lower viral load that means you get over the illness easier.

    Finally the whole purpose of universal mask wearing is to protect others not yourself yet this study seems to be answering if the mask helps the wearer, not the others. The whole point is if other people are wearing masks then they protect you and if you are wearing masks then you protect others. How was this controlled for if in a study deliberately the others you're coming into contact with aren't wearing masks?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,820
    PS5 time, the dawn of a new console generation. I can probably chart my life by PlayStation starting from PS1 as a kid to PS5 as a much bigger one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,860
    TOPPING said:

    fpt for @state_go_away

    OK what a fantastic way to spend a morning - thinking of good books to read!

    One corner of global events that I found extremely interesting is/was first the Rwandan massacres and then leading on to the issue of child soldiers and in particular the LRA.

    These I found extremely engaging.

    Romeo Dallaire - amazing and of course first hand knowledge.
    Shake Hands with the Devil
    They Fight Like Soldiers, They Die Like Children

    Paul Rusesabagina - the film of course was made of this, and he's in the news again now.
    An Ordinary Man

    Emmanuel Jal
    Warchild

    Ishmael Beah
    A Long Way Home

    And then more general:
    The Lord's Resistance Army - Myth and Reality, Ed Tim Allen & Koen Vlassenroot
    The Wizard of the NIle, Matthew Green (about Joseph Kony)

    Plenty of others I'm sure but those are very "enjoyable".

    Good list.
    Here was my recommendation FPT (for those prepared to commit the time.)

    Combining two of those interests - politics and history - Rick Perlstein's series of books on the rise of modern US conservatism is terrific.
    Before the Storm; Nixonland; The Invisible Bridge; Reaganland

    The series of four starts with Goldwater, and I've just received the recently published copy of the fourth book.

    He writes from a liberal viewpoint, which may or may not put some off, but I guess that depends on whether one prefers histories written by apologists or critics.

    Definitely long reads - particularly the last two.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 4,030



    How come they had such a battle over a few £100 million to feed kids but this money just plops out of thin air?
    Poor kids have a long way to go before they have the lobbying power of the arms industry.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,327

    Only three weeks back the Government talked up the new lockdown on the basis of what are now known to be wholly false projections that it used to assert that the NHS would otherwise be unable to cope.

    Yet the % thinking that the NHS will not be able to cope only ticked up by about 4% on the back of that.

    So a few are still prepared to take the Government at their word, and most are not. What this polling shows is that the vast majority of the UK population have decided that our Government can't be trusted to level with those it governs in a national emergency. It was very different back in early Spring.

    Experience vs innocence.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 9,213
    TOPPING said:

    OK what a fantastic way to spend a morning - thinking of good books to read!

    The latest volume of Michael J Fox's autobiography is out

    I have enjoyed them all
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
    Preventing China from benefiting from its strings is a benefit for the whole of the liberal, capitalist, democratic world. Ceding that space completely to them is not a good idea.
    There's a danger here of the same kind of short-sightedness you get in some US Republican circles about military aid. Defending Lithuania is not transactional; Lithuania will never be able to defend the US to the same extent it benefits from the US umbrella, but that doesn't mean it's not in the strong interests of the US to contain Russia. It's all about front lines, not just geographical but also ethical, ideological, and political. Better to be defending our way of life far, far from home than to have the barbarians at the gate. It doesn't show up on the balance sheet as a credit, but that's merely an artefact of what is measurable.
    Except we can't prevent China from benefiting from their strings since it's not either or. In fact if we help develop a country that China has also tied in strings then that is More advantageous to China not less.

    The only way to prevent China from benefiting from its strings isn't for us to be developing other nations marginally it would be if we were sabotaging and destroying what the Chinese have done - which I don't think is appropriate.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 7,735
    Off topic

    Today is the day to turn one's back on PC liberal wokery.

    The Kirsty McColl verse from The fairytale of New York has been butchered for BBC Radio 1 to satisfy PC gentility.

    Christopher Chope and Phillip Davies were right all along!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,820

    Off topic

    Today is the day to turn one's back on PC liberal wokery.

    The Kirsty McColl verse from The fairytale of New York has been butchered for BBC Radio 1 to satisfy PC gentility.

    Christopher Chope and Phillip Davies were right all along!

    You're a cheap lousy maggot?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 7,735
    MaxPB said:

    Off topic

    Today is the day to turn one's back on PC liberal wokery.

    The Kirsty McColl verse from The fairytale of New York has been butchered for BBC Radio 1 to satisfy PC gentility.

    Christopher Chope and Phillip Davies were right all along!

    You're a cheap lousy maggot?
    ...bit haggard, rather than a faggot!
  • Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,820

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    Err, not sure if you've listened to 1Xtra...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,341
    edited November 19
    rkrkrk said:

    Any books to recommend to order and read over Christmas - i like non- fiction over fiction (except where the fiction is related to subjects I like ) - subjects I like are

    Politics (no surprise!)
    Gambling (again no surprise being on a website like this ! - prefer gambling individual or bookie stories as opposed to how to win books)
    London (have a growing collection of London books)
    Railways (not an avid trainspotter but love the lifestyle of trains )
    Gothic stuff
    History (medium rather than high brow though)
    Sport ( not bios generally but more general stuff about sport- love sport stats !)

    From previous thread.
    Looking forward to seeing what this generates.
    Some non-fiction I liked this year:

    Bad Blood (10/10) - gripping, very fast-paced read of the dumpster fire that was Theranos. Some political themes - but more about business/ethics than politics.
    Shoe Dog (8/10) - memoir of Nike co-founder. Got some interesting sports themes, famous namedrops and also fascinating to see how much America has changed in 50 odd years or so. Not the greatest writing, but definitely gives you a sense of the urgency and pressure they felt. At times a little implausible, but a good read.
    The Shoemaker and his Daughter (9/10) - one family's true story to survive and thrive set in Soviet Russia and Siberia. Not highbrow history.
    Nigel Farage - the purple revolution: the year that changed everything (7/10) - there's something about Nigel Farage that I find a little bit fascinating. It's pretty entertaining and it does give a good sense of how Farage views things, or how he wants to be viewed. A quick read. Available at charity shops if you don't want to make a contribution to Nige! Excellent for winding people up by placing prominently on a bookshelf.
    I must admit to quite liking contrarian history, but I'm currently reading 'Dominion' (C.J.Sansom) for a discussion group and finding it very depressing. For the uninitiated, it's set in the 50's, and describes life after after the UK had sued for peace in 1940. Very like Vichy France, according to the histories. Just hope the goodies win in the end!
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
    Preventing China from benefiting from its strings is a benefit for the whole of the liberal, capitalist, democratic world. Ceding that space completely to them is not a good idea.
    There's a danger here of the same kind of short-sightedness you get in some US Republican circles about military aid. Defending Lithuania is not transactional; Lithuania will never be able to defend the US to the same extent it benefits from the US umbrella, but that doesn't mean it's not in the strong interests of the US to contain Russia. It's all about front lines, not just geographical but also ethical, ideological, and political. Better to be defending our way of life far, far from home than to have the barbarians at the gate. It doesn't show up on the balance sheet as a credit, but that's merely an artefact of what is measurable.
    Except we can't prevent China from benefiting from their strings since it's not either or. In fact if we help develop a country that China has also tied in strings then that is More advantageous to China not less.

    The only way to prevent China from benefiting from its strings isn't for us to be developing other nations marginally it would be if we were sabotaging and destroying what the Chinese have done - which I don't think is appropriate.
    Is it naive to imagine Conservatives might say that instead of slashing aid, we should take a leaf out of the Chinese book and target creating jobs and building industries and not just concentrate on relief work?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,331
    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    OK what a fantastic way to spend a morning - thinking of good books to read!

    The latest volume of Michael J Fox's autobiography is out

    I have enjoyed them all
    Now that is a great idea - I hadn't even known he had written any.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,666
    rkrkrk said:

    Any books to recommend to order and read over Christmas - i like non- fiction over fiction (except where the fiction is related to subjects I like ) - subjects I like are

    Politics (no surprise!)
    Gambling (again no surprise being on a website like this ! - prefer gambling individual or bookie stories as opposed to how to win books)
    London (have a growing collection of London books)
    Railways (not an avid trainspotter but love the lifestyle of trains )
    Gothic stuff
    History (medium rather than high brow though)
    Sport ( not bios generally but more general stuff about sport- love sport stats !)

    From previous thread.
    Looking forward to seeing what this generates.
    Some non-fiction I liked this year:

    Bad Blood (10/10) - gripping, very fast-paced read of the dumpster fire that was Theranos. Some political themes - but more about business/ethics than politics.
    Shoe Dog (8/10) - memoir of Nike co-founder. Got some interesting sports themes, famous namedrops and also fascinating to see how much America has changed in 50 odd years or so. Not the greatest writing, but definitely gives you a sense of the urgency and pressure they felt. At times a little implausible, but a good read.
    The Shoemaker and his Daughter (9/10) - one family's true story to survive and thrive set in Soviet Russia and Siberia. Not highbrow history.
    Nigel Farage - the purple revolution: the year that changed everything (7/10) - there's something about Nigel Farage that I find a little bit fascinating. It's pretty entertaining and it does give a good sense of how Farage views things, or how he wants to be viewed. A quick read. Available at charity shops if you don't want to make a contribution to Nige! Excellent for winding people up by placing prominently on a bookshelf.
    Thanks everyone who has suggested so far - please keep them coming if you want to - looking them up online at the moment!
  • Off topic

    Today is the day to turn one's back on PC liberal wokery.

    The Kirsty McColl verse from The fairytale of New York has been butchered for BBC Radio 1 to satisfy PC gentility.

    Christopher Chope and Phillip Davies were right all along!

    Political correctness maybe but it's hardly new. Kirsty MacColl recorded a version with 'ass' replacing 'arse' in 1987 and a version replacing "You cheap lousy faggot" with "You’re cheap and you’re haggard” in 1992. Complaining about PC liberals ruining the song is becoming one of our longer running Christmas traditions.
  • .
    MaxPB said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    Err, not sure if you've listened to 1Xtra...
    Do we need that sort of language on pb? At the very least it will trigger content filters.
  • MaxPB said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    Err, not sure if you've listened to 1Xtra...
    From several decades ago
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,781
    edited November 19

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    Sometimes it's not worth the arguments. One thinks of the film Dambusters - and arguments over whether to keep or bleep the dog's name rather overshadowed the bravery of the crews. Very much a proxy for Brexiter vs The Woke vs The Sensible. I tend to feel that the pooch's name was not germane and that it would only distract the new generation, so best omitted.* Did the new film sans dog's name ever come out?

    The context seems to matter. Quoting the song in an academic history of attitudes is one thing. But putting it straight out as is is riskier. Of course the song itself may be providing its own context, e.g. by criticising the use of the word?

    * In principle, no different from the fact that the Upkeep mines in the film were spherical, or that Lincolns were pretending to be Lancasters in some shots - details which only matter to the cognoscenti but for which there were good practical reasons at the time (security, lack of airworthy Lancs).
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    Stereodog said:

    Off topic

    Today is the day to turn one's back on PC liberal wokery.

    The Kirsty McColl verse from The fairytale of New York has been butchered for BBC Radio 1 to satisfy PC gentility.

    Christopher Chope and Phillip Davies were right all along!

    Political correctness maybe but it's hardly new. Kirsty MacColl recorded a version with 'ass' replacing 'arse' in 1987 and a version replacing "You cheap lousy faggot" with "You’re cheap and you’re haggard” in 1992. Complaining about PC liberals ruining the song is becoming one of our longer running Christmas traditions.
    Christmas has been ruined by people complaining that Christmas has been ruined.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 7,735

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    What! They'll be banning repeats of "Love they neighbour next"!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    edited November 19

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    "Straight Outta Compton"?

    That's 32 years old now, old enough to be a grandparent. Still sounds good today.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,341

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    Pretty well any 'negro spiritual'?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 7,735
    Stereodog said:

    Off topic

    Today is the day to turn one's back on PC liberal wokery.

    The Kirsty McColl verse from The fairytale of New York has been butchered for BBC Radio 1 to satisfy PC gentility.

    Christopher Chope and Phillip Davies were right all along!

    Political correctness maybe but it's hardly new. Kirsty MacColl recorded a version with 'ass' replacing 'arse' in 1987 and a version replacing "You cheap lousy faggot" with "You’re cheap and you’re haggard” in 1992. Complaining about PC liberals ruining the song is becoming one of our longer running Christmas traditions.
    I did wonder how they managed to get Kirsty to change the lyrics in 2020.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 6,520
    David McCullough's biography of Truman was really great as well. A president I didn't know much about but an immensely impressive man who racked up a lot of achievements.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 11,317
    I wonder if the Navy are still considering selling the 2nd carrier.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,781

    rkrkrk said:

    Any books to recommend to order and read over Christmas - i like non- fiction over fiction (except where the fiction is related to subjects I like ) - subjects I like are

    Politics (no surprise!)
    Gambling (again no surprise being on a website like this ! - prefer gambling individual or bookie stories as opposed to how to win books)
    London (have a growing collection of London books)
    Railways (not an avid trainspotter but love the lifestyle of trains )
    Gothic stuff
    History (medium rather than high brow though)
    Sport ( not bios generally but more general stuff about sport- love sport stats !)

    From previous thread.
    Looking forward to seeing what this generates.
    Some non-fiction I liked this year:

    Bad Blood (10/10) - gripping, very fast-paced read of the dumpster fire that was Theranos. Some political themes - but more about business/ethics than politics.
    Shoe Dog (8/10) - memoir of Nike co-founder. Got some interesting sports themes, famous namedrops and also fascinating to see how much America has changed in 50 odd years or so. Not the greatest writing, but definitely gives you a sense of the urgency and pressure they felt. At times a little implausible, but a good read.
    The Shoemaker and his Daughter (9/10) - one family's true story to survive and thrive set in Soviet Russia and Siberia. Not highbrow history.
    Nigel Farage - the purple revolution: the year that changed everything (7/10) - there's something about Nigel Farage that I find a little bit fascinating. It's pretty entertaining and it does give a good sense of how Farage views things, or how he wants to be viewed. A quick read. Available at charity shops if you don't want to make a contribution to Nige! Excellent for winding people up by placing prominently on a bookshelf.
    Thanks everyone who has suggested so far - please keep them coming if you want to - looking them up online at the moment!
    Cherck the past thread - some of us missed this new thread.
  • Those of you with gym memberships - anyone arguing with your gym over membership? My 12 month contract expires at the end of December and I've given them notice to cancel. Extraordinarily they have emailed me and informed me that they have extended my contract for the months they were closed.

    I know the pox has been tough for a lot of businesses. But one party can't unilaterally change a contract without the other party agreeing. They say "you haven't made 12 payments" - true, they haven't taken payments when closed. But the contract doesn't provide any ability for them to change 12 months to an indefinite period until they claim 12 payments.

    On Twitter it seems to be a standard tactic for gyms. What makes this one even sillier is that I had to use the wayback machine to find their members T&Cs - the page that hosts them has been mysteriously dropped from their website. I wonder why...
  • Stereodog said:

    Off topic

    Today is the day to turn one's back on PC liberal wokery.

    The Kirsty McColl verse from The fairytale of New York has been butchered for BBC Radio 1 to satisfy PC gentility.

    Christopher Chope and Phillip Davies were right all along!

    Political correctness maybe but it's hardly new. Kirsty MacColl recorded a version with 'ass' replacing 'arse' in 1987 and a version replacing "You cheap lousy faggot" with "You’re cheap and you’re haggard” in 1992. Complaining about PC liberals ruining the song is becoming one of our longer running Christmas traditions.
    I did wonder how they managed to get Kirsty to change the lyrics in 2020.
    With the scary emergence of deep fake songs I wouldn't be surprised if it were a new version they were playing.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770

    I wonder if the Navy are still considering selling the 2nd carrier.

    It's going to "focus" on rotary wing ops. ie be the Ocean replacement and the world's most expensive LPH.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 6,520

    rkrkrk said:

    Any books to recommend to order and read over Christmas - i like non- fiction over fiction (except where the fiction is related to subjects I like ) - subjects I like are

    Politics (no surprise!)
    Gambling (again no surprise being on a website like this ! - prefer gambling individual or bookie stories as opposed to how to win books)
    London (have a growing collection of London books)
    Railways (not an avid trainspotter but love the lifestyle of trains )
    Gothic stuff
    History (medium rather than high brow though)
    Sport ( not bios generally but more general stuff about sport- love sport stats !)

    From previous thread.
    Looking forward to seeing what this generates.
    Some non-fiction I liked this year:

    Bad Blood (10/10) - gripping, very fast-paced read of the dumpster fire that was Theranos. Some political themes - but more about business/ethics than politics.
    Shoe Dog (8/10) - memoir of Nike co-founder. Got some interesting sports themes, famous namedrops and also fascinating to see how much America has changed in 50 odd years or so. Not the greatest writing, but definitely gives you a sense of the urgency and pressure they felt. At times a little implausible, but a good read.
    The Shoemaker and his Daughter (9/10) - one family's true story to survive and thrive set in Soviet Russia and Siberia. Not highbrow history.
    Nigel Farage - the purple revolution: the year that changed everything (7/10) - there's something about Nigel Farage that I find a little bit fascinating. It's pretty entertaining and it does give a good sense of how Farage views things, or how he wants to be viewed. A quick read. Available at charity shops if you don't want to make a contribution to Nige! Excellent for winding people up by placing prominently on a bookshelf.
    I must admit to quite liking contrarian history, but I'm currently reading 'Dominion' (C.J.Sansom) for a discussion group and finding it very depressing. For the uninitiated, it's set in the 50's, and describes life after after the UK had sued for peace in 1940. Very like Vichy France, according to the histories. Just hope the goodies win in the end!
    Thanks - I haven't read much contrarian history but suspect I'd like it. The only thing is, I know almost nothing about the UK in the 50s... so it feels like I should probably get a better sense of that first.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,860

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
    Preventing China from benefiting from its strings is a benefit for the whole of the liberal, capitalist, democratic world. Ceding that space completely to them is not a good idea.
    There's a danger here of the same kind of short-sightedness you get in some US Republican circles about military aid. Defending Lithuania is not transactional; Lithuania will never be able to defend the US to the same extent it benefits from the US umbrella, but that doesn't mean it's not in the strong interests of the US to contain Russia. It's all about front lines, not just geographical but also ethical, ideological, and political. Better to be defending our way of life far, far from home than to have the barbarians at the gate. It doesn't show up on the balance sheet as a credit, but that's merely an artefact of what is measurable.
    Except we can't prevent China from benefiting from their strings since it's not either or. In fact if we help develop a country that China has also tied in strings then that is More advantageous to China not less.

    The only way to prevent China from benefiting from its strings isn't for us to be developing other nations marginally it would be if we were sabotaging and destroying what the Chinese have done - which I don't think is appropriate.
    There's a lot of zero sum game thinking there.
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
    Preventing China from benefiting from its strings is a benefit for the whole of the liberal, capitalist, democratic world. Ceding that space completely to them is not a good idea.
    There's a danger here of the same kind of short-sightedness you get in some US Republican circles about military aid. Defending Lithuania is not transactional; Lithuania will never be able to defend the US to the same extent it benefits from the US umbrella, but that doesn't mean it's not in the strong interests of the US to contain Russia. It's all about front lines, not just geographical but also ethical, ideological, and political. Better to be defending our way of life far, far from home than to have the barbarians at the gate. It doesn't show up on the balance sheet as a credit, but that's merely an artefact of what is measurable.
    Except we can't prevent China from benefiting from their strings since it's not either or. In fact if we help develop a country that China has also tied in strings then that is More advantageous to China not less.

    The only way to prevent China from benefiting from its strings isn't for us to be developing other nations marginally it would be if we were sabotaging and destroying what the Chinese have done - which I don't think is appropriate.
    Is it naive to imagine Conservatives might say that instead of slashing aid, we should take a leaf out of the Chinese book and target creating jobs and building industries and not just concentrate on relief work?
    So you're suggesting that we should tie strings to our own foreign aid and tie it to jobs and industries in this country?

    That was explicitly ruled illegal in 1997 and has been considered virtually evil for the past couple of decades. I wonder what makes it suddenly possibly a good idea?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,995



    How come they had such a battle over a few £100 million to feed kids but this money just plops out of thin air?
    Poor kids have a long way to go before they have the lobbying power of the arms industry.
    And what an arms industry! Fuck soft power.

    'UK remains world's second-biggest arms dealer, figures suggest'

    https://tinyurl.com/y2opwmfg

    I think I pointed out before that the UK had managed, despite sanctions, to sell arms to both sides in the recent Nagorno-Karabakh unpleasantness.
  • Nigelb said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
    Preventing China from benefiting from its strings is a benefit for the whole of the liberal, capitalist, democratic world. Ceding that space completely to them is not a good idea.
    There's a danger here of the same kind of short-sightedness you get in some US Republican circles about military aid. Defending Lithuania is not transactional; Lithuania will never be able to defend the US to the same extent it benefits from the US umbrella, but that doesn't mean it's not in the strong interests of the US to contain Russia. It's all about front lines, not just geographical but also ethical, ideological, and political. Better to be defending our way of life far, far from home than to have the barbarians at the gate. It doesn't show up on the balance sheet as a credit, but that's merely an artefact of what is measurable.
    Except we can't prevent China from benefiting from their strings since it's not either or. In fact if we help develop a country that China has also tied in strings then that is More advantageous to China not less.

    The only way to prevent China from benefiting from its strings isn't for us to be developing other nations marginally it would be if we were sabotaging and destroying what the Chinese have done - which I don't think is appropriate.
    There's a lot of zero sum game thinking there.
    Actually my thinking was the opposite of zero sum. It was Roy G Biv that was zero sum thinking that if we spent aid that would neutralise Chinese strings attached whereas I said that we can actually end up amplifying and improving the benefits the Chinese get by supplementing their own investment without severing their strings or tying any of our own.
  • .

    Those of you with gym memberships - anyone arguing with your gym over membership? My 12 month contract expires at the end of December and I've given them notice to cancel. Extraordinarily they have emailed me and informed me that they have extended my contract for the months they were closed.

    I know the pox has been tough for a lot of businesses. But one party can't unilaterally change a contract without the other party agreeing. They say "you haven't made 12 payments" - true, they haven't taken payments when closed. But the contract doesn't provide any ability for them to change 12 months to an indefinite period until they claim 12 payments.

    On Twitter it seems to be a standard tactic for gyms. What makes this one even sillier is that I had to use the wayback machine to find their members T&Cs - the page that hosts them has been mysteriously dropped from their website. I wonder why...

    Does it matter? If you want to go back to the gym when we get the all-clear, then having them roll your unused months over seems reasonable enough, and even if you are not sure but want the gym still to be there so you have the choice, the same applies. I'd be wary of fighting against your own best interests on a so-called point of principle.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,311
    JACK_W said:

    Gabriel Debenedetti of the "New York Magazine" gives a fascinating insight into the data analytics of the Biden campaign as the election loomed, November 3rd and the days following :

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/11/election-night-with-bidens-data-guru.html

    A very good read. Two standouts. The extraordinary amount of information they have on who will vote how and where and a question that isn't addressed but is relevant to the results. Why do uneducated whites vote overwhelmingly for Trump when other uneducated people don't and what is it about Trump that attracts them?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,995

    rkrkrk said:

    Any books to recommend to order and read over Christmas - i like non- fiction over fiction (except where the fiction is related to subjects I like ) - subjects I like are

    Politics (no surprise!)
    Gambling (again no surprise being on a website like this ! - prefer gambling individual or bookie stories as opposed to how to win books)
    London (have a growing collection of London books)
    Railways (not an avid trainspotter but love the lifestyle of trains )
    Gothic stuff
    History (medium rather than high brow though)
    Sport ( not bios generally but more general stuff about sport- love sport stats !)

    From previous thread.
    Looking forward to seeing what this generates.
    Some non-fiction I liked this year:

    Bad Blood (10/10) - gripping, very fast-paced read of the dumpster fire that was Theranos. Some political themes - but more about business/ethics than politics.
    Shoe Dog (8/10) - memoir of Nike co-founder. Got some interesting sports themes, famous namedrops and also fascinating to see how much America has changed in 50 odd years or so. Not the greatest writing, but definitely gives you a sense of the urgency and pressure they felt. At times a little implausible, but a good read.
    The Shoemaker and his Daughter (9/10) - one family's true story to survive and thrive set in Soviet Russia and Siberia. Not highbrow history.
    Nigel Farage - the purple revolution: the year that changed everything (7/10) - there's something about Nigel Farage that I find a little bit fascinating. It's pretty entertaining and it does give a good sense of how Farage views things, or how he wants to be viewed. A quick read. Available at charity shops if you don't want to make a contribution to Nige! Excellent for winding people up by placing prominently on a bookshelf.
    I must admit to quite liking contrarian history, but I'm currently reading 'Dominion' (C.J.Sansom) for a discussion group and finding it very depressing. For the uninitiated, it's set in the 50's, and describes life after after the UK had sued for peace in 1940. Very like Vichy France, according to the histories. Just hope the goodies win in the end!
    From memory there was a weird 20 page rant from the author about the SNP at the end of the book (this was before the 2014 referendum). Is it still in your edition?
  • Sandpit said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    "Straight Outta Compton"?

    That's 32 years old now, old enough to be a grandparent. Still sounds good today.
    That's obviously not what I meant and you're being disingenuous by using it as an example. "Nigger" in that context is very different to the usage historically and by white people against black people.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,311
    Where's HYUFD? Surely not licking his wounds?
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Those of you with gym memberships - anyone arguing with your gym over membership? My 12 month contract expires at the end of December and I've given them notice to cancel. Extraordinarily they have emailed me and informed me that they have extended my contract for the months they were closed.

    I know the pox has been tough for a lot of businesses. But one party can't unilaterally change a contract without the other party agreeing. They say "you haven't made 12 payments" - true, they haven't taken payments when closed. But the contract doesn't provide any ability for them to change 12 months to an indefinite period until they claim 12 payments.

    On Twitter it seems to be a standard tactic for gyms. What makes this one even sillier is that I had to use the wayback machine to find their members T&Cs - the page that hosts them has been mysteriously dropped from their website. I wonder why...

    That is extraordinary!
    Mind me asking which company?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 30,459

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    Nobody should be fiddling with past, it is gone and is history. Not for some half witted PC woke lentil munchers to decide what we can and cannot see or hear. No wonder this country is well and truly F**ked
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,416
    edited November 19

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    I think I do. I don't think we should be editing history. For instance I don't think the Dam Busters film should be edited as that was the name of the dog.

    Where do you draw the line. Should we pretend women had the vote in the 19th century and that we didn't drown witches, because we wouldn't do that now. This is all discrimination just like language is by using insulting words for ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation and disability.

    It happened. Don't pretend it didn't by editing it out.
  • Sandpit said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    "Straight Outta Compton"?

    That's 32 years old now, old enough to be a grandparent. Still sounds good today.
    That's obviously not what I meant and you're being disingenuous by using it as an example. "Nigger" in that context is very different to the usage historically and by white people against black people.
    Its not disingenuous whatsoever it is the word being used.

    Fairytale of New York has an even more innocent and acceptable use of lyrics than that does.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770
    Roger said:

    Where's HYUFD?

    Jedburgh in a Chally 2.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,298
    FPT: Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Mick Schumacher may be driving for Haas next year.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    Roger said:

    Where's HYUFD? Surely not licking his wounds?

    Probably inside the Georgia State House with an AK47
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,781

    rkrkrk said:

    Any books to recommend to order and read over Christmas - i like non- fiction over fiction (except where the fiction is related to subjects I like ) - subjects I like are

    Politics (no surprise!)
    Gambling (again no surprise being on a website like this ! - prefer gambling individual or bookie stories as opposed to how to win books)
    London (have a growing collection of London books)
    Railways (not an avid trainspotter but love the lifestyle of trains )
    Gothic stuff
    History (medium rather than high brow though)
    Sport ( not bios generally but more general stuff about sport- love sport stats !)

    From previous thread.
    Looking forward to seeing what this generates.
    Some non-fiction I liked this year:

    Bad Blood (10/10) - gripping, very fast-paced read of the dumpster fire that was Theranos. Some political themes - but more about business/ethics than politics.
    Shoe Dog (8/10) - memoir of Nike co-founder. Got some interesting sports themes, famous namedrops and also fascinating to see how much America has changed in 50 odd years or so. Not the greatest writing, but definitely gives you a sense of the urgency and pressure they felt. At times a little implausible, but a good read.
    The Shoemaker and his Daughter (9/10) - one family's true story to survive and thrive set in Soviet Russia and Siberia. Not highbrow history.
    Nigel Farage - the purple revolution: the year that changed everything (7/10) - there's something about Nigel Farage that I find a little bit fascinating. It's pretty entertaining and it does give a good sense of how Farage views things, or how he wants to be viewed. A quick read. Available at charity shops if you don't want to make a contribution to Nige! Excellent for winding people up by placing prominently on a bookshelf.
    I must admit to quite liking contrarian history, but I'm currently reading 'Dominion' (C.J.Sansom) for a discussion group and finding it very depressing. For the uninitiated, it's set in the 50's, and describes life after after the UK had sued for peace in 1940. Very like Vichy France, according to the histories. Just hope the goodies win in the end!
    From memory there was a weird 20 page rant from the author about the SNP at the end of the book (this was before the 2014 referendum). Is it still in your edition?
    There was - very out of place. Book not a patch on his Henrician novels with Matthew Shardlake, but then he doesn't rant there on the wonders of the Henrician settlement or conversely the appalling notion of having the King as head of the C of E.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 30,459

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
    Preventing China from benefiting from its strings is a benefit for the whole of the liberal, capitalist, democratic world. Ceding that space completely to them is not a good idea.
    There's a danger here of the same kind of short-sightedness you get in some US Republican circles about military aid. Defending Lithuania is not transactional; Lithuania will never be able to defend the US to the same extent it benefits from the US umbrella, but that doesn't mean it's not in the strong interests of the US to contain Russia. It's all about front lines, not just geographical but also ethical, ideological, and political. Better to be defending our way of life far, far from home than to have the barbarians at the gate. It doesn't show up on the balance sheet as a credit, but that's merely an artefact of what is measurable.
    Except we can't prevent China from benefiting from their strings since it's not either or. In fact if we help develop a country that China has also tied in strings then that is More advantageous to China not less.

    The only way to prevent China from benefiting from its strings isn't for us to be developing other nations marginally it would be if we were sabotaging and destroying what the Chinese have done - which I don't think is appropriate.
    Is it naive to imagine Conservatives might say that instead of slashing aid, we should take a leaf out of the Chinese book and target creating jobs and building industries and not just concentrate on relief work?
    So you're suggesting that we should tie strings to our own foreign aid and tie it to jobs and industries in this country?

    That was explicitly ruled illegal in 1997 and has been considered virtually evil for the past couple of decades. I wonder what makes it suddenly possibly a good idea?
    Try using the cash to help the poor beggars at home , once that is sorted start trying to solve the world. WTF we have people going without food here and will not help them but will shovel billions to despots and half wits to squander all over the world. The Tories are really bent.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 11,508
    edited November 19

    Sandpit said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    "Straight Outta Compton"?

    That's 32 years old now, old enough to be a grandparent. Still sounds good today.
    That's obviously not what I meant and you're being disingenuous by using it as an example. "Nigger" in that context is very different to the usage historically and by white people against black people.
    Its not disingenuous whatsoever it is the word being used.

    Fairytale of New York has an even more innocent and acceptable use of lyrics than that does.
    It is, because a black person using the word "nigger" in this context is not being racist, in some sense black people have re-defined/re-owned the word.

    If a white person called somebody a nigger today, clearly it's racist, it's completely different as you well know.

    As an example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger_in_the_woodpile - this is wholly unacceptable today, if you said or used this, you'd be absolutely be being racist.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,781
    Dura_Ace said:

    Roger said:

    Where's HYUFD?

    Jedburgh in a Chally 2.
    At least while the British Army still has tanks, I suppose.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194

    Sandpit said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    "Straight Outta Compton"?

    That's 32 years old now, old enough to be a grandparent. Still sounds good today.
    That's obviously not what I meant and you're being disingenuous by using it as an example. "Nigger" in that context is very different to the usage historically and by white people against black people.
    You simply asked about the use of the 'n-word', something that's been a staple of hip-hop music since its inception. Context is irrelevant, if you're going to ask for words to be banned.

    Don't start me on Dave Chappelle's latest comedy special either, there's at least a dozen 'n-words' in that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,860
    (FPT)
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Australian special forces involved in murder of 39 Afghan civilians, war crimes report alleges
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/nov/19/australian-special-forces-involved-in-of-39-afghan-civilians-war-crimes-report-alleges

    The ASAS should be disbanded over this but probably won't be.
    I don't know.
    It's a huge story, and the absolving of 'senior command' by the report seems at the least questionable. I don't expect that to go unexamined, particular if any of these cases ever go to trial (which they should).
  • .

    Those of you with gym memberships - anyone arguing with your gym over membership? My 12 month contract expires at the end of December and I've given them notice to cancel. Extraordinarily they have emailed me and informed me that they have extended my contract for the months they were closed.

    I know the pox has been tough for a lot of businesses. But one party can't unilaterally change a contract without the other party agreeing. They say "you haven't made 12 payments" - true, they haven't taken payments when closed. But the contract doesn't provide any ability for them to change 12 months to an indefinite period until they claim 12 payments.

    On Twitter it seems to be a standard tactic for gyms. What makes this one even sillier is that I had to use the wayback machine to find their members T&Cs - the page that hosts them has been mysteriously dropped from their website. I wonder why...

    Does it matter? If you want to go back to the gym when we get the all-clear, then having them roll your unused months over seems reasonable enough, and even if you are not sure but want the gym still to be there so you have the choice, the same applies. I'd be wary of fighting against your own best interests on a so-called point of principle.
    I'm trying to cancel so I'm not looking to go back. This isn't Brexit where I demand access without paying!
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    That is extraordinary!
    Mind me asking which company?

    Total Fitness. But its not just them, I know David Lloyd have done the same thing. I have pointed out to them that the "Limited Liabilities" section of the contract talks exclusively about injury so makes no provision to limit their liabilities on things like breach of contract :)

  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 11,508
    edited November 19
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    "Straight Outta Compton"?

    That's 32 years old now, old enough to be a grandparent. Still sounds good today.
    That's obviously not what I meant and you're being disingenuous by using it as an example. "Nigger" in that context is very different to the usage historically and by white people against black people.
    You simply asked about the use of the 'n-word', something that's been a staple of hip-hop music since its inception. Context is irrelevant, if you're going to ask for words to be banned.

    Don't start me on Dave Chappelle's latest comedy special either, there's at least a dozen 'n-words' in that.
    If a white person records a song with the word "nigger" in it, you either think that's appropriate or you don't, which is it?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,341
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Any books to recommend to order and read over Christmas - i like non- fiction over fiction (except where the fiction is related to subjects I like ) - subjects I like are

    Politics (no surprise!)
    Gambling (again no surprise being on a website like this ! - prefer gambling individual or bookie stories as opposed to how to win books)
    London (have a growing collection of London books)
    Railways (not an avid trainspotter but love the lifestyle of trains )
    Gothic stuff
    History (medium rather than high brow though)
    Sport ( not bios generally but more general stuff about sport- love sport stats !)

    From previous thread.
    Looking forward to seeing what this generates.
    Some non-fiction I liked this year:

    Bad Blood (10/10) - gripping, very fast-paced read of the dumpster fire that was Theranos. Some political themes - but more about business/ethics than politics.
    Shoe Dog (8/10) - memoir of Nike co-founder. Got some interesting sports themes, famous namedrops and also fascinating to see how much America has changed in 50 odd years or so. Not the greatest writing, but definitely gives you a sense of the urgency and pressure they felt. At times a little implausible, but a good read.
    The Shoemaker and his Daughter (9/10) - one family's true story to survive and thrive set in Soviet Russia and Siberia. Not highbrow history.
    Nigel Farage - the purple revolution: the year that changed everything (7/10) - there's something about Nigel Farage that I find a little bit fascinating. It's pretty entertaining and it does give a good sense of how Farage views things, or how he wants to be viewed. A quick read. Available at charity shops if you don't want to make a contribution to Nige! Excellent for winding people up by placing prominently on a bookshelf.
    I must admit to quite liking contrarian history, but I'm currently reading 'Dominion' (C.J.Sansom) for a discussion group and finding it very depressing. For the uninitiated, it's set in the 50's, and describes life after after the UK had sued for peace in 1940. Very like Vichy France, according to the histories. Just hope the goodies win in the end!
    Thanks - I haven't read much contrarian history but suspect I'd like it. The only thing is, I know almost nothing about the UK in the 50s... so it feels like I should probably get a better sense of that first.
    Sansom does describe the gloom and sadness of the late 40's/v.early 50's, as I recall it, although of course as I was ca 11 I didn't quite realise what things were like. I do recall my parents often being unhappy about the world though.
    A few months ago I did a WEA Zoom course on contrarian history; Started with 'what would have happened if Harold had won at Hastings in 1066' which inspired a lot of discussion, including 'What would have happened if Harald Hardrada and Tostig Godwinson had defeated Harold at Stamford Bridge a couple of weeks before Hastings?'
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,666

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    I heard Olivers Army (great song) on the radio recently - The word was merged out (although the word was not meant to be offensive when written )
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 11,508
    edited November 19
    Another example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nigger_in_the_Woodpile

    Is this appropriate to air today? I don't think so. Not without extremely, extremely clear warnings before, during and after, I would say.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,995
    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Roger said:

    Where's HYUFD?

    Jedburgh in a Chally 2.
    At least while the British Army still has tanks, I suppose.
    What is it with Tories and tanks (yeah, I know Ruth's is an spg, but still)? Bunch of Shermans if you ask me.








  • Roger said:

    JACK_W said:

    Gabriel Debenedetti of the "New York Magazine" gives a fascinating insight into the data analytics of the Biden campaign as the election loomed, November 3rd and the days following :

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/11/election-night-with-bidens-data-guru.html

    A very good read. Two standouts. The extraordinary amount of information they have on who will vote how and where and a question that isn't addressed but is relevant to the results. Why do uneducated whites vote overwhelmingly for Trump when other uneducated people don't and what is it about Trump that attracts them?
    I found it dull. The first three quarters describes comparing actual with expected results, which is what happens on pb every election night (the difference is we want to bet, whereas the campaign wants to update its spin teams for American television). The last quarter, which jumps back in time but was too mundane to lead the piece, has our hero doing the reverse: comparing opinion polls with the swing needed on the night in order to inform strategy. With no technical detail, it is a long statement of the bleeding obvious and it is not even very well written.
  • Sandpit said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    "Straight Outta Compton"?

    That's 32 years old now, old enough to be a grandparent. Still sounds good today.
    That's obviously not what I meant and you're being disingenuous by using it as an example. "Nigger" in that context is very different to the usage historically and by white people against black people.
    Its not disingenuous whatsoever it is the word being used.

    Fairytale of New York has an even more innocent and acceptable use of lyrics than that does.
    It is, because a black person using the word "nigger" in this context is not being racist, in some sense black people have re-defined/re-owned the word.

    If a white person called somebody a nigger today, clearly it's racist, it's completely different as you well know.

    As an example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger_in_the_woodpile - this is wholly unacceptable today, if you said or used this, you'd be absolutely be being racist.
    Its not disingenuous as the question was never about white people or drawing a distinction.

    Your question (in the context of talking about Fairytale of New York) was just this: "Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate"

    Straight Outta Compton is from several decades ago. It ticks every box of your question. And the context was immediately after discussing Fairytale of New York so don't try and change this into some twisted black versus white thing - if you meant that you should have said that but you did not.

    So can you answer your own question: If the radio were to play [Straight Outta Compton which is from several decades ago], do [you] still believe this is appropriate"?
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Nigelb said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I've never understood how one and the same person can be worried about the strategic inroads China is making into Africa, and simultaneously be in favour of slashing foreign aid and development. It's like saying "yes, I recognise than soft power can be beneficial, pay for itself, and in the hands of the wrong people is bad.... but I think we shouldn't do that."
    The only logical conclusion to these two viewpoints is that these people think the UK is worse that China. Which is a view, I guess.
    Simple - China's investment in Africa etc is with loads of strings attached, whereas our foreign aid is explicitly no strings attached.

    Meaning that both China and us can spend in the same country and afterwards thanks to Chinese strings they benefit and besides a warm glow in our hearts for a few seconds while thinking about how benign we are we simply don't.
    Preventing China from benefiting from its strings is a benefit for the whole of the liberal, capitalist, democratic world. Ceding that space completely to them is not a good idea.
    There's a danger here of the same kind of short-sightedness you get in some US Republican circles about military aid. Defending Lithuania is not transactional; Lithuania will never be able to defend the US to the same extent it benefits from the US umbrella, but that doesn't mean it's not in the strong interests of the US to contain Russia. It's all about front lines, not just geographical but also ethical, ideological, and political. Better to be defending our way of life far, far from home than to have the barbarians at the gate. It doesn't show up on the balance sheet as a credit, but that's merely an artefact of what is measurable.
    Except we can't prevent China from benefiting from their strings since it's not either or. In fact if we help develop a country that China has also tied in strings then that is More advantageous to China not less.

    The only way to prevent China from benefiting from its strings isn't for us to be developing other nations marginally it would be if we were sabotaging and destroying what the Chinese have done - which I don't think is appropriate.
    There's a lot of zero sum game thinking there.
    Actually my thinking was the opposite of zero sum. It was Roy G Biv that was zero sum thinking that if we spent aid that would neutralise Chinese strings attached whereas I said that we can actually end up amplifying and improving the benefits the Chinese get by supplementing their own investment without severing their strings or tying any of our own.
    You're right that my thinking is more zero-sum than yours in this context. But I stand by my view.
    For me it feel a bit like having well-regulated finance versus loan sharks. Ideally you don't want the loan sharks to exist at all, and ensuring people have access to proper finance can reduce the temptation to rely on bad actors. It is not a prophylactic, but it helps. Cutting off all legitimate finance options, on the other hand, drives them into the arms of the finger-breakers.

    (Just to be totally clear, I am using finance as a metaphor. I'm not suggesting that foreign aid is literally like lending.)
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,454
    rkrkrk said:

    geoffw said:

    FPT
    Prof Carl Heneghan & Tom Jefferson "Landmark Danish study shows face masks have no significant effect"

    Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.

    Concludes:
    And now that we have properly rigorous scientific research we can rely on, the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/do-masks-stop-the-spread-of-covid-19-

    1) they are misstating what the study says
    2) more importantly -> the idea behind masks is not primarily to protect the wearer, but to protect others from the wearer if the wearer is infectious.

    The actual study says: "The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection."
    https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817
    Correct - unwarranted hype imo.
  • Sandpit said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    "Straight Outta Compton"?

    That's 32 years old now, old enough to be a grandparent. Still sounds good today.
    That's obviously not what I meant and you're being disingenuous by using it as an example. "Nigger" in that context is very different to the usage historically and by white people against black people.
    Its not disingenuous whatsoever it is the word being used.

    Fairytale of New York has an even more innocent and acceptable use of lyrics than that does.
    It is, because a black person using the word "nigger" in this context is not being racist, in some sense black people have re-defined/re-owned the word.

    If a white person called somebody a nigger today, clearly it's racist, it's completely different as you well know.

    As an example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger_in_the_woodpile - this is wholly unacceptable today, if you said or used this, you'd be absolutely be being racist.
    Its not disingenuous as the question was never about white people or drawing a distinction.

    Your question (in the context of talking about Fairytale of New York) was just this: "Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate"

    Straight Outta Compton is from several decades ago. It ticks every box of your question. And the context was immediately after discussing Fairytale of New York so don't try and change this into some twisted black versus white thing - if you meant that you should have said that but you did not.

    So can you answer your own question: If the radio were to play [Straight Outta Compton which is from several decades ago], do [you] still believe this is appropriate"?
    I'm happy to clarify what I meant, as you so wish.

    Playing Straight Outta Compton, is entirely different to say airing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nigger_in_the_Woodpile. Completely and entirely different.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,634
    malcolmg said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    Nobody should be fiddling with past, it is gone and is history. Not for some half witted PC woke lentil munchers to decide what we can and cannot see or hear. No wonder this country is well and truly F**ked
    Damn. When malcolmg's right, he's really right.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,860
    Roger said:

    Where's HYUFD? Surely not licking his wounds?

    With his party in a state of flux, he quite likely has more important things to do (from his POV) than spend time here ?
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    .

    Those of you with gym memberships - anyone arguing with your gym over membership? My 12 month contract expires at the end of December and I've given them notice to cancel. Extraordinarily they have emailed me and informed me that they have extended my contract for the months they were closed.

    I know the pox has been tough for a lot of businesses. But one party can't unilaterally change a contract without the other party agreeing. They say "you haven't made 12 payments" - true, they haven't taken payments when closed. But the contract doesn't provide any ability for them to change 12 months to an indefinite period until they claim 12 payments.

    On Twitter it seems to be a standard tactic for gyms. What makes this one even sillier is that I had to use the wayback machine to find their members T&Cs - the page that hosts them has been mysteriously dropped from their website. I wonder why...

    Does it matter? If you want to go back to the gym when we get the all-clear, then having them roll your unused months over seems reasonable enough, and even if you are not sure but want the gym still to be there so you have the choice, the same applies. I'd be wary of fighting against your own best interests on a so-called point of principle.
    I'm trying to cancel so I'm not looking to go back. This isn't Brexit where I demand access without paying!
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    That is extraordinary!
    Mind me asking which company?

    Total Fitness. But its not just them, I know David Lloyd have done the same thing. I have pointed out to them that the "Limited Liabilities" section of the contract talks exclusively about injury so makes no provision to limit their liabilities on things like breach of contract :)

    But but... they need you more than [ENOUGH! -Ed]
  • Must get back to work, have a lovely morning all.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,995
    geoffw said:

    rkrkrk said:

    geoffw said:

    FPT
    Prof Carl Heneghan & Tom Jefferson "Landmark Danish study shows face masks have no significant effect"

    Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.

    Concludes:
    And now that we have properly rigorous scientific research we can rely on, the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/do-masks-stop-the-spread-of-covid-19-

    1) they are misstating what the study says
    2) more importantly -> the idea behind masks is not primarily to protect the wearer, but to protect others from the wearer if the wearer is infectious.

    The actual study says: "The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection."
    https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817
    Correct - unwarranted hype imo.
    It's almost like they've a square hypothesis that they want to ram into any round holes going.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,324

    Off topic

    Today is the day to turn one's back on PC liberal wokery.

    The Kirsty McColl verse from The fairytale of New York has been butchered for BBC Radio 1 to satisfy PC gentility.

    Christopher Chope and Phillip Davies were right all along!

    Ah yes, 2020, the year that radio edits of songs first appeared.

    Never before has a song had lyrics "ducked" or "rerecorded" for the version that is broadcast on the radio.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 11,317
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Where's HYUFD? Surely not licking his wounds?

    With his party in a state of flux, he quite likely has more important things to do (from his POV) than spend time here ?
    I don't understand
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,416
    edited November 19

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    "Straight Outta Compton"?

    That's 32 years old now, old enough to be a grandparent. Still sounds good today.
    That's obviously not what I meant and you're being disingenuous by using it as an example. "Nigger" in that context is very different to the usage historically and by white people against black people.
    You simply asked about the use of the 'n-word', something that's been a staple of hip-hop music since its inception. Context is irrelevant, if you're going to ask for words to be banned.

    Don't start me on Dave Chappelle's latest comedy special either, there's at least a dozen 'n-words' in that.
    If a white person records a song with the word "nigger" in it, you either think that's appropriate or you don't, which is it?
    Disagree. Context is all important. In a protest song it may well be ok. If as a gratuitous insult then absolutely not appropriate.

    My liberal credentials will get a bit of a hammering here.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,341
    edited November 19

    rkrkrk said:

    Any books to recommend to order and read over Christmas - i like non- fiction over fiction (except where the fiction is related to subjects I like ) - subjects I like are

    Politics (no surprise!)
    Gambling (again no surprise being on a website like this ! - prefer gambling individual or bookie stories as opposed to how to win books)
    London (have a growing collection of London books)
    Railways (not an avid trainspotter but love the lifestyle of trains )
    Gothic stuff
    History (medium rather than high brow though)
    Sport ( not bios generally but more general stuff about sport- love sport stats !)

    From previous thread.
    Looking forward to seeing what this generates.
    Some non-fiction I liked this year:

    Bad Blood (10/10) - gripping, very fast-paced read of the dumpster fire that was Theranos. Some political themes - but more about business/ethics than politics.
    Shoe Dog (8/10) - memoir of Nike co-founder. Got some interesting sports themes, famous namedrops and also fascinating to see how much America has changed in 50 odd years or so. Not the greatest writing, but definitely gives you a sense of the urgency and pressure they felt. At times a little implausible, but a good read.
    The Shoemaker and his Daughter (9/10) - one family's true story to survive and thrive set in Soviet Russia and Siberia. Not highbrow history.
    Nigel Farage - the purple revolution: the year that changed everything (7/10) - there's something about Nigel Farage that I find a little bit fascinating. It's pretty entertaining and it does give a good sense of how Farage views things, or how he wants to be viewed. A quick read. Available at charity shops if you don't want to make a contribution to Nige! Excellent for winding people up by placing prominently on a bookshelf.
    I must admit to quite liking contrarian history, but I'm currently reading 'Dominion' (C.J.Sansom) for a discussion group and finding it very depressing. For the uninitiated, it's set in the 50's, and describes life after after the UK had sued for peace in 1940. Very like Vichy France, according to the histories. Just hope the goodies win in the end!
    From memory there was a weird 20 page rant from the author about the SNP at the end of the book (this was before the 2014 referendum). Is it still in your edition?
    Had a look and not so far as I can see. There's a bit in the notes at the end about the SNP splitting in 1941 or so, half, the Right supporting the pro-Fascist Govt (led incidentally by Beaverbrook) and the Left, which was part of the Resistance. But I'm only about half way at the moment. Odd references so far.
  • Sandpit said:

    Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate

    "Straight Outta Compton"?

    That's 32 years old now, old enough to be a grandparent. Still sounds good today.
    That's obviously not what I meant and you're being disingenuous by using it as an example. "Nigger" in that context is very different to the usage historically and by white people against black people.
    Its not disingenuous whatsoever it is the word being used.

    Fairytale of New York has an even more innocent and acceptable use of lyrics than that does.
    It is, because a black person using the word "nigger" in this context is not being racist, in some sense black people have re-defined/re-owned the word.

    If a white person called somebody a nigger today, clearly it's racist, it's completely different as you well know.

    As an example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger_in_the_woodpile - this is wholly unacceptable today, if you said or used this, you'd be absolutely be being racist.
    Its not disingenuous as the question was never about white people or drawing a distinction.

    Your question (in the context of talking about Fairytale of New York) was just this: "Just a question, if the radio were to play a song with the word "nigger" in it from several decades ago, do people still believe this is appropriate"

    Straight Outta Compton is from several decades ago. It ticks every box of your question. And the context was immediately after discussing Fairytale of New York so don't try and change this into some twisted black versus white thing - if you meant that you should have said that but you did not.

    So can you answer your own question: If the radio were to play [Straight Outta Compton which is from several decades ago], do [you] still believe this is appropriate"?
    I'm happy to clarify what I meant, as you so wish.

    Playing Straight Outta Compton, is entirely different to say airing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nigger_in_the_Woodpile. Completely and entirely different.
    So what you're saying is that it is acceptable to play it and context is what matters?

    In which case green light for Fairytale of New York. The context is entirely fine, we all know that.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,995

    rkrkrk said:

    Any books to recommend to order and read over Christmas - i like non- fiction over fiction (except where the fiction is related to subjects I like ) - subjects I like are

    Politics (no surprise!)
    Gambling (again no surprise being on a website like this ! - prefer gambling individual or bookie stories as opposed to how to win books)
    London (have a growing collection of London books)
    Railways (not an avid trainspotter but love the lifestyle of trains )
    Gothic stuff
    History (medium rather than high brow though)
    Sport ( not bios generally but more general stuff about sport- love sport stats !)

    From previous thread.
    Looking forward to seeing what this generates.
    Some non-fiction I liked this year:

    Bad Blood (10/10) - gripping, very fast-paced read of the dumpster fire that was Theranos. Some political themes - but more about business/ethics than politics.
    Shoe Dog (8/10) - memoir of Nike co-founder. Got some interesting sports themes, famous namedrops and also fascinating to see how much America has changed in 50 odd years or so. Not the greatest writing, but definitely gives you a sense of the urgency and pressure they felt. At times a little implausible, but a good read.
    The Shoemaker and his Daughter (9/10) - one family's true story to survive and thrive set in Soviet Russia and Siberia. Not highbrow history.
    Nigel Farage - the purple revolution: the year that changed everything (7/10) - there's something about Nigel Farage that I find a little bit fascinating. It's pretty entertaining and it does give a good sense of how Farage views things, or how he wants to be viewed. A quick read. Available at charity shops if you don't want to make a contribution to Nige! Excellent for winding people up by placing prominently on a bookshelf.
    I must admit to quite liking contrarian history, but I'm currently reading 'Dominion' (C.J.Sansom) for a discussion group and finding it very depressing. For the uninitiated, it's set in the 50's, and describes life after after the UK had sued for peace in 1940. Very like Vichy France, according to the histories. Just hope the goodies win in the end!
    From memory there was a weird 20 page rant from the author about the SNP at the end of the book (this was before the 2014 referendum). Is it still in your edition?
    Had a look and not so far as I can see. There's a bit in the notes at the end about the SNP splitting in 1941 or so, half, the Right supporting the pro-Fascist Govt (led incidentally by Beaverbrook) and the Left, which was part of the Resistance. But I'm only about half way at the moment.
    Hmm, interesting.
    As I remember it, it was a personal statement separate from the novel, along the lines of dreadful people who want to split up my country, today's version of Nazism etc, etc.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,454

    geoffw said:

    rkrkrk said:

    geoffw said:

    FPT
    Prof Carl Heneghan & Tom Jefferson "Landmark Danish study shows face masks have no significant effect"

    Unlike other studies looking at masks, the Danmask study was a randomised controlled trial – making it the highest quality scientific evidence.

    Concludes:
    And now that we have properly rigorous scientific research we can rely on, the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/do-masks-stop-the-spread-of-covid-19-

    1) they are misstating what the study says
    2) more importantly -> the idea behind masks is not primarily to protect the wearer, but to protect others from the wearer if the wearer is infectious.

    The actual study says: "The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection."
    https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817
    Correct - unwarranted hype imo.
    It's almost like they've a square hypothesis that they want to ram into any round holes going.
    Yup, the square hypothesis relates to how masks affect the wearer's susceptibility to infection, which misses the point about it being to protect others. More difficult to set up a randomised control trial for that though.

  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 1,806
    Roger said:

    JACK_W said:

    Gabriel Debenedetti of the "New York Magazine" gives a fascinating insight into the data analytics of the Biden campaign as the election loomed, November 3rd and the days following :

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/11/election-night-with-bidens-data-guru.html

    A very good read. Two standouts. The extraordinary amount of information they have on who will vote how and where and a question that isn't addressed but is relevant to the results. Why do uneducated whites vote overwhelmingly for Trump when other uneducated people don't and what is it about Trump that attracts them?
    Re the uneducated whites vote thing, the Hispanic side of things seems to edging more towards the profile of white voters. For Black voters, it will have a lot to do with age. Much of the older Black generation is still seeped in the Civil Rights / Church / "Souls to the Polls" tradition. One of the things I would be interested to see in terms of a breakdown of the vote of Black men by age and the differences between the older generation, who go to church, and the younger ones who don't
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