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Veteran commentator Peter Oborne on the real reasons why Cummings had to go – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388
    edited November 2020
    If I were Starmer I'd offer Len McLuskey a deal: I'll give Corbyn the whip back if you promise to bugger off and never come near the Labour Party again.

    By comparison with Corbyn on the backbenches and neutered, McLuskey is a much more malign influence.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    UK cases by specimen date and by 100K population

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    UK local R

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883
    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Bletchley Park was infamously underresoirced at one point because its director was ineffectual, ISTR. Maybe Turing felt that producing more bombes - and getting them across the Atlantic - remember! - would be slowed than an elegant mental solution?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    UK case summary

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    edited November 2020
    UK hospitals

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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,697
    Stocky said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    Don't forget the role of the Poles.
    Indeed. When someone asks "Who broke Enigma?" the sensible questions include

    1) Do you mean Enigma or do you actually mean another cipher, such as Fish (which may have been more important)
    2) Which version of the Enigma machine
    3) Which keying/setup system
    4) Which rotors
    5) Which Enigma network (combines 2, 3 & 4 with an actual usage)
    6) Do you mean a real break, rather than a theoretical demonstration
    7) Do you mean a daily break
    8) Do you mean a break of the majority of the traffic

    I had a go at building a table of this stuff a long time ago - should really finish it and add it the Wikipedia article on ULTRA
    I`m not sure that Turing`s fame is primarily based on his cracking the code is it? I think it`s more to do with the appalling way that he, as a homosexual, was treated.
    I think it was the increasing relevance of his work in computer science that first brought his legacy to prominence and then the dramatisation of his personal story made him a household name.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    UK deaths

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    UK R

    From case data

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    From hospital admissions

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  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    Don't forget the role of the Poles.
    Indeed. When someone asks "Who broke Enigma?" the sensible questions include

    1) Do you mean Enigma or do you actually mean another cipher, such as Fish (which may have been more important)
    2) Which version of the Enigma machine
    3) Which keying/setup system
    4) Which rotors
    5) Which Enigma network (combines 2, 3 & 4 with an actual usage)
    6) Do you mean a real break, rather than a theoretical demonstration
    7) Do you mean a daily break
    8) Do you mean a break of the majority of the traffic

    I had a go at building a table of this stuff a long time ago - should really finish it and add it the Wikipedia article on ULTRA
    I`m not sure that Turing`s fame is primarily based on his cracking the code is it? I think it`s more to do with the appalling way that he, as a homosexual, was treated.
    Surely that came later. He did formulate the concept of the programmable Turing Machine. Or maybe as a nerdy type that made more of an impression on me - also when the Enigma revelations happ[ened in the 1970s and 1980s less was made of Mr T's dfemise.
    Not sure. Turing came into my consciousness, In guess, 10 years or so ago. See below from 2013:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/14/alan-turing-codebreaker-posthumous-award-attitude
  • Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    isam said:
    Disappointing for Jeremy.

    Pretty poor showing particularly when you take out his very personal clique
  • Stocky said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    Don't forget the role of the Poles.
    Indeed. When someone asks "Who broke Enigma?" the sensible questions include

    1) Do you mean Enigma or do you actually mean another cipher, such as Fish (which may have been more important)
    2) Which version of the Enigma machine
    3) Which keying/setup system
    4) Which rotors
    5) Which Enigma network (combines 2, 3 & 4 with an actual usage)
    6) Do you mean a real break, rather than a theoretical demonstration
    7) Do you mean a daily break
    8) Do you mean a break of the majority of the traffic

    I had a go at building a table of this stuff a long time ago - should really finish it and add it the Wikipedia article on ULTRA
    I`m not sure that Turing`s fame is primarily based on his cracking the code is it? I think it`s more to do with the appalling way that he, as a homosexual, was treated.
    He was responsible for modern computing as well.

    He was also a 33/1 winner for me as well.

    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/10/17/who-will-be-the-face-of-the-new-50-note/
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,244

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    Which meaning of "arch" is that? :smile:
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,697
    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    Don't forget the role of the Poles.
    Indeed. When someone asks "Who broke Enigma?" the sensible questions include

    1) Do you mean Enigma or do you actually mean another cipher, such as Fish (which may have been more important)
    2) Which version of the Enigma machine
    3) Which keying/setup system
    4) Which rotors
    5) Which Enigma network (combines 2, 3 & 4 with an actual usage)
    6) Do you mean a real break, rather than a theoretical demonstration
    7) Do you mean a daily break
    8) Do you mean a break of the majority of the traffic

    I had a go at building a table of this stuff a long time ago - should really finish it and add it the Wikipedia article on ULTRA
    I`m not sure that Turing`s fame is primarily based on his cracking the code is it? I think it`s more to do with the appalling way that he, as a homosexual, was treated.
    Surely that came later. He did formulate the concept of the programmable Turing Machine. Or maybe as a nerdy type that made more of an impression on me - also when the Enigma revelations happ[ened in the 1970s and 1980s less was made of Mr T's dfemise.
    Not sure. Turing came into my consciousness, In guess, 10 years or so ago. See below from 2013:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/14/alan-turing-codebreaker-posthumous-award-attitude
    The BBC made a TV version of a 1980s play about him in 1996 where he was played by Derek Jacobi, so his public fame goes back before then.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Scott_xP said:
    I don't know why Corbyn's defenders keep bringing up the unity angle, especially in relation to the EHRC recommendations since the whole point was he did not show unity about the report (as his remarks demonstrated) and that was why he was punished. They'd be on stronger grounds just sticking to arguing that party membership being restored means the whip should be.
  • Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The thing is, when most elements of the far left have spent every day since Starmer was elected launching absolutely blistering attacks on Keir Starmer and practising serial diloyalty, after a while it ceases to become anything of note.
    And vice versa during Corbyn's hegemony? If Labour is to form the next government then these factions have to find a way to work together and that means ending provocations from either side.
    Not vice versa as far as Starmer was concerned.

    Starmer was a sycophantic toady to Corbyn when he was in the Shadow Cabinet only finding a moral consciousness after he got the top job.
    Well, like Kruschev under Stalin, Deng Xiopeng under Mao, Thatcher under Heath, or Major under Thatcher, sometimes you have to hold your tongue and position in order to achieve the ability to act. It is not unique to any particular political party.
    Philip Thompson affects to hate and denigrate Starmer because subconsciously he realises that Starmer is a competent leader and Johnson is an incompetent hopeless buffoon. It is the main reason why Johnson's apologists are so genuinely frightened of Starmer, and so they should be.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    What on earth is going on in Atlanta, Georgia
    https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1329128653809213443
  • Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    What Turing did more than anything else was *automate* enigma decryption. Automation mattered because the Nazis changed the settings every day. People forget the sheer scale of the operation. Listening stations all around the world captured Nazi radio messages and sent them to Bletchley Park where thousands of people (not just half a dozen as shown in the Cumberbatch film) toiled to decrypt the messages in time to make a difference in the field. Turing's bombes automated discovering each day's settings. Some of the traffic would be sent to America where NCR had built hundreds of bombes.

    Tommy Flowers similarly automated Tunny decryption, used by Nazi high command, following the analysis of Bill Tutte, a chemist. In the process he built the world's first computer.

    I'd recommend the Computerphile youtube vides on Enigma, often presented by a man whose father worked at BP. There is also a good Horizon programme on Tutte, Flowers and Tunny.

    It is perhaps unfortunate that Churchill's insistence on post-war secrecy handed the crown jewels to America. We repeated the same mistake with CGHQ's discovery of public key encryption, now the basis of all ecommerce.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    Don't forget the role of the Poles.
    Indeed. When someone asks "Who broke Enigma?" the sensible questions include

    1) Do you mean Enigma or do you actually mean another cipher, such as Fish (which may have been more important)
    2) Which version of the Enigma machine
    3) Which keying/setup system
    4) Which rotors
    5) Which Enigma network (combines 2, 3 & 4 with an actual usage)
    6) Do you mean a real break, rather than a theoretical demonstration
    7) Do you mean a daily break
    8) Do you mean a break of the majority of the traffic

    I had a go at building a table of this stuff a long time ago - should really finish it and add it the Wikipedia article on ULTRA
    I`m not sure that Turing`s fame is primarily based on his cracking the code is it? I think it`s more to do with the appalling way that he, as a homosexual, was treated.
    Surely that came later. He did formulate the concept of the programmable Turing Machine. Or maybe as a nerdy type that made more of an impression on me - also when the Enigma revelations happ[ened in the 1970s and 1980s less was made of Mr T's dfemise.
    Not sure. Turing came into my consciousness, In guess, 10 years or so ago. See below from 2013:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/14/alan-turing-codebreaker-posthumous-award-attitude
    It is interesting how... interest in Turing and the reasons for that interest have varied over the years.

    There are various groups out there claiming that x did y - Tommy Flowers is sometimes pointed to as being minimised because of the role of class in UK academic/Civil Service culture. Turing for being gay....

    As to my interest - John Herivel taught me to play chess. I was a poor pupil, but we had some interesting discussions about mathematics.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The thing is, when most elements of the far left have spent every day since Starmer was elected launching absolutely blistering attacks on Keir Starmer and practising serial diloyalty, after a while it ceases to become anything of note.
    And vice versa during Corbyn's hegemony? If Labour is to form the next government then these factions have to find a way to work together and that means ending provocations from either side.
    Not vice versa as far as Starmer was concerned.

    Starmer was a sycophantic toady to Corbyn when he was in the Shadow Cabinet only finding a moral consciousness after he got the top job.
    Well, like Kruschev under Stalin, Deng Xiopeng under Mao, Thatcher under Heath, or Major under Thatcher, sometimes you have to hold your tongue and position in order to achieve the ability to act. It is not unique to any particular political party.
    Philip Thompson affects to hate and denigrate Starmer because subconsciously he realises that Starmer is a competent leader and Johnson is an incompetent hopeless buffoon. It is the main reason why Johnson's apologists are so genuinely frightened of Starmer, and so they should be.
    Hmm. I think Starmer seems to be doing a pretty good job, but I'd be wary of this 'those who are frightened of Starmer are the ones criticising him' stuff. It may be true to a point, but it is also what people say about crap leaders who are criticised, like Corbyn.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1329115695217577986

    Keir successfully swerves bad press, makes it look like the NEC aren't on his side and will reform it, a blinder

    Splitting the labour vote in half a Blinder?!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited November 2020
    Roger said:

    isam said:
    Disappointing for Jeremy.

    Pretty poor showing particularly when you take out his very personal clique
    He never cared about his MP colleagues, so most never believed in him when he was leader, and now he's not leader most won't care about him.

    He reaps what he sows.
  • MattW said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    Which meaning of "arch" is that? :smile:
    This one, from my OED app.


  • ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Interesting. But I don't buy it because imo No Deal was never a possibility, Biden or no Biden, Cummings there or not. Still, Johnson has sacked the man he made a fool of himself protecting a few months ago. It is odd. Something must have changed. Perhaps it was personal and to do with Carrie, as per one of the stories.

    You`re slightly missing the point. It`s not that no deal is the destination, it`s that the threat of it secures a better deal for us.

    Cummings et al wanted to play chicken with the EU, believing (as they do) that the EU needs a deal more than we do and therefore that we "hold the cards". Johnson in the end lacked the stomach for a game of chicken, and Cummings came to see the writing on the wall which will be a poor deal for the UK tarted up by Johnson as a great deal and Cummings upped sticks, wanting no further part in this.
    Since we do not hold all the cards, and only Mr Thicky believed we did, playing chicken would ultimately have been (and indeed has been) a foolish strategy.

    When you play chicken with no cards, you end up getting stuffed.
    I don't appreciate being called Mr Thicky. 😜
  • Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    Don't forget the role of the Poles.
    Indeed. When someone asks "Who broke Enigma?" the sensible questions include

    1) Do you mean Enigma or do you actually mean another cipher, such as Fish (which may have been more important)
    2) Which version of the Enigma machine
    3) Which keying/setup system
    4) Which rotors
    5) Which Enigma network (combines 2, 3 & 4 with an actual usage)
    6) Do you mean a real break, rather than a theoretical demonstration
    7) Do you mean a daily break
    8) Do you mean a break of the majority of the traffic

    I had a go at building a table of this stuff a long time ago - should really finish it and add it the Wikipedia article on ULTRA
    I`m not sure that Turing`s fame is primarily based on his cracking the code is it? I think it`s more to do with the appalling way that he, as a homosexual, was treated.
    Surely that came later. He did formulate the concept of the programmable Turing Machine. Or maybe as a nerdy type that made more of an impression on me - also when the Enigma revelations happ[ened in the 1970s and 1980s less was made of Mr T's dfemise.
    Not sure. Turing came into my consciousness, In guess, 10 years or so ago. See below from 2013:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/14/alan-turing-codebreaker-posthumous-award-attitude
    His statue (from 2001) sits between the University of Manchester and Canal Street, in Sackville Park. That is when I became aware of his story.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,804

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    Don't forget the role of the Poles.
    Indeed. When someone asks "Who broke Enigma?" the sensible questions include

    1) Do you mean Enigma or do you actually mean another cipher, such as Fish (which may have been more important)
    2) Which version of the Enigma machine
    3) Which keying/setup system
    4) Which rotors
    5) Which Enigma network (combines 2, 3 & 4 with an actual usage)
    6) Do you mean a real break, rather than a theoretical demonstration
    7) Do you mean a daily break
    8) Do you mean a break of the majority of the traffic

    I had a go at building a table of this stuff a long time ago - should really finish it and add it the Wikipedia article on ULTRA
    I`m not sure that Turing`s fame is primarily based on his cracking the code is it? I think it`s more to do with the appalling way that he, as a homosexual, was treated.
    Surely that came later. He did formulate the concept of the programmable Turing Machine. Or maybe as a nerdy type that made more of an impression on me - also when the Enigma revelations happ[ened in the 1970s and 1980s less was made of Mr T's dfemise.
    Not sure. Turing came into my consciousness, In guess, 10 years or so ago. See below from 2013:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/14/alan-turing-codebreaker-posthumous-award-attitude
    The BBC made a TV version of a 1980s play about him in 1996 where he was played by Derek Jacobi, so his public fame goes back before then.
    I studied Turing machines in the early 70s as part of my maths degree. It was Manchester university which may have had something to do with it.

    Don't know anyone outside of that who had heard of him.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    What Turing did more than anything else was *automate* enigma decryption. Automation mattered because the Nazis changed the settings every day. People forget the sheer scale of the operation. Listening stations all around the world captured Nazi radio messages and sent them to Bletchley Park where thousands of people (not just half a dozen as shown in the Cumberbatch film) toiled to decrypt the messages in time to make a difference in the field. Turing's bombes automated discovering each day's settings. Some of the traffic would be sent to America where NCR had built hundreds of bombes.

    Tommy Flowers similarly automated Tunny decryption, used by Nazi high command, following the analysis of Bill Tutte, a chemist. In the process he built the world's first computer.

    I'd recommend the Computerphile youtube vides on Enigma, often presented by a man whose father worked at BP. There is also a good Horizon programme on Tutte, Flowers and Tunny.

    It is perhaps unfortunate that Churchill's insistence on post-war secrecy handed the crown jewels to America. We repeated the same mistake with CGHQ's discovery of public key encryption, now the basis of all ecommerce.
    Churchill's insistence on post war secrecy was because we (the Americans and the UK) were marketing auto-stepping wheel ciphers to our allies. Complete with certain features that made them vulnerable....

    Public key encryption got buried because computer hardware was a long way from being able to actually implement anything more than a trivial version at the time. Once buried, it was forgotten by all concerned....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Probably just because he asks about Churchill and if his impression of him is good every time he comes by.
  • kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The thing is, when most elements of the far left have spent every day since Starmer was elected launching absolutely blistering attacks on Keir Starmer and practising serial diloyalty, after a while it ceases to become anything of note.
    And vice versa during Corbyn's hegemony? If Labour is to form the next government then these factions have to find a way to work together and that means ending provocations from either side.
    Not vice versa as far as Starmer was concerned.

    Starmer was a sycophantic toady to Corbyn when he was in the Shadow Cabinet only finding a moral consciousness after he got the top job.
    Well, like Kruschev under Stalin, Deng Xiopeng under Mao, Thatcher under Heath, or Major under Thatcher, sometimes you have to hold your tongue and position in order to achieve the ability to act. It is not unique to any particular political party.
    Philip Thompson affects to hate and denigrate Starmer because subconsciously he realises that Starmer is a competent leader and Johnson is an incompetent hopeless buffoon. It is the main reason why Johnson's apologists are so genuinely frightened of Starmer, and so they should be.
    Hmm. I think Starmer seems to be doing a pretty good job, but I'd be wary of this 'those who are frightened of Starmer are the ones criticising him' stuff. It may be true to a point, but it is also what people say about crap leaders who are criticised, like Corbyn.
    Fair point, but Johnson's apologists are frightened of Starmer because he is not only doing a pretty good job, but he is not Jeremy Corbyn. He is also a lot more PM material than Miliband. I don't say this as a Labour supporter, but as a pretty much life long Tory voter and one time Tory activist. I don't want a Labour government, I want a decent Conservative one led by someone who has proper values and knows how to lead. Basically, not Boris Johnson or any of the lightweights he has propping up his incompetent government.
  • Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    Don't forget the role of the Poles.
    Indeed. When someone asks "Who broke Enigma?" the sensible questions include

    1) Do you mean Enigma or do you actually mean another cipher, such as Fish (which may have been more important)
    2) Which version of the Enigma machine
    3) Which keying/setup system
    4) Which rotors
    5) Which Enigma network (combines 2, 3 & 4 with an actual usage)
    6) Do you mean a real break, rather than a theoretical demonstration
    7) Do you mean a daily break
    8) Do you mean a break of the majority of the traffic

    I had a go at building a table of this stuff a long time ago - should really finish it and add it the Wikipedia article on ULTRA
    I`m not sure that Turing`s fame is primarily based on his cracking the code is it? I think it`s more to do with the appalling way that he, as a homosexual, was treated.
    Surely that came later. He did formulate the concept of the programmable Turing Machine. Or maybe as a nerdy type that made more of an impression on me - also when the Enigma revelations happ[ened in the 1970s and 1980s less was made of Mr T's dfemise.
    Not sure. Turing came into my consciousness, In guess, 10 years or so ago. See below from 2013:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/14/alan-turing-codebreaker-posthumous-award-attitude
    Fake news, the clamour for an apology and pardon began long before that, 2009 was when Brown apologised.

    I became aware of Turing in the late 90s, he wasn't mentioned publicly by the government until the 70s when the government declassified several WWII documents that showed the world Turing's brilliance.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited November 2020

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1329115695217577986

    Keir successfully swerves bad press, makes it look like the NEC aren't on his side and will reform it, a blinder

    A blinder overstates it but giving someone a kicking always seems to enhance the reputation of political leaders here. Whether Corbyn was already so battered it just looks liked flogging a dead dog we'll find out.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    Stocky said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    Don't forget the role of the Poles.
    Indeed. When someone asks "Who broke Enigma?" the sensible questions include

    1) Do you mean Enigma or do you actually mean another cipher, such as Fish (which may have been more important)
    2) Which version of the Enigma machine
    3) Which keying/setup system
    4) Which rotors
    5) Which Enigma network (combines 2, 3 & 4 with an actual usage)
    6) Do you mean a real break, rather than a theoretical demonstration
    7) Do you mean a daily break
    8) Do you mean a break of the majority of the traffic

    I had a go at building a table of this stuff a long time ago - should really finish it and add it the Wikipedia article on ULTRA
    I`m not sure that Turing`s fame is primarily based on his cracking the code is it? I think it`s more to do with the appalling way that he, as a homosexual, was treated.
    He was responsible for modern computing as well.

    He was also a 33/1 winner for me as well.

    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/10/17/who-will-be-the-face-of-the-new-50-note/
    Just as cash is phased out. As in the era his homosexuality was discovered, his suicide, shortly before the gay witch hunt of the early 50s blew itself out.
    Timing wasn't Turing's strong suit.
  • Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Roger said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1329115695217577986

    Keir successfully swerves bad press, makes it look like the NEC aren't on his side and will reform it, a blinder

    A blinder overstates it but giving someone a kicking always seems to enhance the reputation of political leaders here. Whether Corbyn was already so battered it just looks liked flogging a dead dog we'll find out.
    There are people out there still dreaming the dream of Corbyn. Starmer probably has to flog that dog a lot before they get the message.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,099
    edited November 2020

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    If I had to guess Dave was probably a recent fav. Nice polite lad, always turned up looking smart, managed to win the Scottish Indy Referendum and a distant part of the family.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,220
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Interesting. But I don't buy it because imo No Deal was never a possibility, Biden or no Biden, Cummings there or not. Still, Johnson has sacked the man he made a fool of himself protecting a few months ago. It is odd. Something must have changed. Perhaps it was personal and to do with Carrie, as per one of the stories.

    You`re slightly missing the point. It`s not that no deal is the destination, it`s that the threat of it secures a better deal for us.

    Cummings et al wanted to play chicken with the EU, believing (as they do) that the EU needs a deal more than we do and therefore that we "hold the cards". Johnson in the end lacked the stomach for a game of chicken, and Cummings came to see the writing on the wall which will be a poor deal for the UK tarted up by Johnson as a great deal and Cummings upped sticks, wanting no further part in this.
    But the threat must be credible and I don't think it ever could have been. It can work in plenty of other negotiations I can think of but I don't think this was that sort of situation, except maybe right on the margins. The EU's red lines were never going to move much. And they knew that No Deal would hurt us more.

    I just think on balance that the personal reason is more likely.

    There's a story - a true one apparently - that Jeremy Corbyn ended a marriage because his wife insisted on a selective school for their child. And isn't that just Jeremy all over? All principle and no flex.

    So, I sense Johnson is the dead opposite. Say that Carrie found out that Cummings was dissing her - Princess Nut Nuts etc - and went ballistic with a quaking PM. Essentially said to him, "Look, it's Dom or me." In that case I think he'd choose to pacify her and get rid of him. She seems a strong person and she is vital to his PR. He'd know that. And he seems quite a weak individual.

    Or to spin it more positively - it's not that he's weak, he's just a normal bloke in this regard. He prioritized his beloved and the MOHC over his work colleague. That makes sense. For all that Dominic Cummings provided to Boris Johnson he could never give him what Carrie does.
  • Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The thing is, when most elements of the far left have spent every day since Starmer was elected launching absolutely blistering attacks on Keir Starmer and practising serial diloyalty, after a while it ceases to become anything of note.
    And vice versa during Corbyn's hegemony? If Labour is to form the next government then these factions have to find a way to work together and that means ending provocations from either side.
    Not vice versa as far as Starmer was concerned.

    Starmer was a sycophantic toady to Corbyn when he was in the Shadow Cabinet only finding a moral consciousness after he got the top job.
    Well, like Kruschev under Stalin, Deng Xiopeng under Mao, Thatcher under Heath, or Major under Thatcher, sometimes you have to hold your tongue and position in order to achieve the ability to act. It is not unique to any particular political party.
    Philip Thompson affects to hate and denigrate Starmer because subconsciously he realises that Starmer is a competent leader and Johnson is an incompetent hopeless buffoon. It is the main reason why Johnson's apologists are so genuinely frightened of Starmer, and so they should be.
    I don't hate Starmer. I dislike him (but I'd probably dislike all Labour leaders except Blair), but I don't hate him. Nor do I fear him, I think we might lose to him but I'm not afraid of that, I was terrified of losing to Corbyn - even though losing to Corbyn was less likely the consequences if we had would be catastrophic. Losing to Starmer would be disappointing but not catastrophic.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    Bit pointless - she'd still be queen of the place.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited November 2020
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The thing is, when most elements of the far left have spent every day since Starmer was elected launching absolutely blistering attacks on Keir Starmer and practising serial diloyalty, after a while it ceases to become anything of note.
    And vice versa during Corbyn's hegemony? If Labour is to form the next government then these factions have to find a way to work together and that means ending provocations from either side.
    Not vice versa as far as Starmer was concerned.

    Starmer was a sycophantic toady to Corbyn when he was in the Shadow Cabinet only finding a moral consciousness after he got the top job.
    Well, like Kruschev under Stalin, Deng Xiopeng under Mao, Thatcher under Heath, or Major under Thatcher, sometimes you have to hold your tongue and position in order to achieve the ability to act. It is not unique to any particular political party.
    Philip Thompson affects to hate and denigrate Starmer because subconsciously he realises that Starmer is a competent leader and Johnson is an incompetent hopeless buffoon. It is the main reason why Johnson's apologists are so genuinely frightened of Starmer, and so they should be.
    Hmm. I think Starmer seems to be doing a pretty good job, but I'd be wary of this 'those who are frightened of Starmer are the ones criticising him' stuff. It may be true to a point, but it is also what people say about crap leaders who are criticised, like Corbyn.
    Labour needs to focus on Biden's victory but also Democrats' relative failure in down-ticket races. Biden's main case was not being Trump. In our context, Starmer is not Corbyn and he is not Boris but unlike in America, we can and probably will change Prime Minister before the election.

    Labour risks finding that simply not being Boris, or Corbyn, is no great advantage when facing PM Gove, Hunt or Sunak, who is also neither Boris nor Corbyn.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,669
    edited November 2020

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    If I had to guess Dave was probably a recent fav. Nice polite lad, always turned up looking smart, managed to win the Scottish Indy Referendum and a distant part of the family.
    Yup, also despite Cherie Blair's republicanism, I did hear the Blairs got on very well with the Queen and the DoE.

    Something to do with both women having sixteen year gaps between their first and youngest children.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Carnyx said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    Bit pointless - she'd still be queen of the place.
    Make one major constitutional change and people might make another, particularly once she is gone.
  • Carnyx said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    Bit pointless - she'd still be queen of the place.
    It's an emotional connect thing, independence would change the dynamic.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    Bit pointless - she'd still be queen of the place.
    Make one major constitutional change and people might make another, particularly once she is gone.
    Not likely when she is alive. And not even after that, with the Princess Royal fronting for them up here and the relatives (incl. the difficult ones) elsewhere. Just not a priority issue, unless and until someone really screws up (as in Oz).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883

    Carnyx said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    Bit pointless - she'd still be queen of the place.
    It's an emotional connect thing, independence would change the dynamic.
    Indeed. She did intervene in indyref 1. Very naughty of her.
  • "We're going to lose so much, you're going to be so sick and tired of losing."
  • Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Bletchley Park was infamously underresoirced at one point because its director was ineffectual, ISTR. Maybe Turing felt that producing more bombes - and getting them across the Atlantic - remember! - would be slowed than an elegant mental solution?
    Here is a good historical account of the American bombes:
    http://www.thecorememory.com/WAVES.pdf
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Bletchley Park was infamously underresoirced at one point because its director was ineffectual, ISTR. Maybe Turing felt that producing more bombes - and getting them across the Atlantic - remember! - would be slowed than an elegant mental solution?
    Here is a good historical account of the American bombes:
    http://www.thecorememory.com/WAVES.pdf
    Oh goody, thanks. Promptly printed off. ...
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    "We're going to lose so much, you're going to be so sick and tired of losing."
    What was the 1 they won?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    isam said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1329115695217577986

    Keir successfully swerves bad press, makes it look like the NEC aren't on his side and will reform it, a blinder

    Splitting the labour vote in half a Blinder?!
    Indeed I will vote Lab in 2021 for my excellent Labour Candidate

    Cant see me voting SKS in 2024 if he continues down his current path
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    "We're going to lose so much, you're going to be so sick and tired of losing."
    What was the 1 they won?
    Getting the distance changed from 12 ft to 6 ft observation in PA. Overturned and means a republican will never win again according to @Contrarian.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    Stocky said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    Don't forget the role of the Poles.
    Indeed. When someone asks "Who broke Enigma?" the sensible questions include

    1) Do you mean Enigma or do you actually mean another cipher, such as Fish (which may have been more important)
    2) Which version of the Enigma machine
    3) Which keying/setup system
    4) Which rotors
    5) Which Enigma network (combines 2, 3 & 4 with an actual usage)
    6) Do you mean a real break, rather than a theoretical demonstration
    7) Do you mean a daily break
    8) Do you mean a break of the majority of the traffic

    I had a go at building a table of this stuff a long time ago - should really finish it and add it the Wikipedia article on ULTRA
    I`m not sure that Turing`s fame is primarily based on his cracking the code is it? I think it`s more to do with the appalling way that he, as a homosexual, was treated.
    He was responsible for modern computing as well.

    He was also a 33/1 winner for me as well.

    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/10/17/who-will-be-the-face-of-the-new-50-note/
    Same here! I only had a fiver on though.
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    "We're going to lose so much, you're going to be so sick and tired of losing."
    What was the 1 they won?
    I don't know, and without wishing to sound passive-aggressive, because it's not meant like that, I don't care. All this fannying around over nothings isn't going to change anything. I'm just really enjoying the humiliating spectacle he's making of himself.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    In light of the fact that there is no fraud, a technical omission on an envelope should not render a ballot invalid. The lack of a written date onan otherwise qualified ballot is a minor technical defect that does not render it deficient
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    Bit pointless - she'd still be queen of the place.
    Make one major constitutional change and people might make another, particularly once she is gone.
    Not likely when she is alive. And not even after that, with the Princess Royal fronting for them up here and the relatives (incl. the difficult ones) elsewhere. Just not a priority issue, unless and until someone really screws up (as in Oz).
    Get the spongers out as soon as Lizzie croaks it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    Bit pointless - she'd still be queen of the place.
    It's an emotional connect thing, independence would change the dynamic.
    Indeed. She did intervene in indyref 1. Very naughty of her.
    Nasty bit of work
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,220
    Pulpstar said:

    What on earth is going on in Atlanta, Georgia
    https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1329128653809213443

    "Alex Jones leading ..."

    A terrifying trio of words.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    I'm sure I've said this before, but I can't help repeating myself. Enigma wasn't even the most important cryptosystem broken, it was Fish, which was the code used by the German High Command. Flowers deserves at least as much credit for his work as Turing gets, and they are only two out of many others.

    It's a bit like everyone knowing about Project Mercury, but hardly anyone knowing about the minor matter of LANDING ON THE MOON in Project Apollo.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited November 2020
    glw said:

    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    I'm sure I've said this before, but I can't help repeating myself. Enigma wasn't even the most important cryptosystem broken, it was Fish, which was the code used by the German High Command. Flowers deserves at least as much credit for his work as Turing gets, and they are only two out of many others.

    It's a bit like everyone knowing about Project Mercury, but hardly anyone knowing about the minor matter of LANDING ON THE MOON in Project Apollo.
    I had indeed never heard of Fish or Tommy Flowers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Bletchley Park was infamously underresoirced at one point because its director was ineffectual, ISTR. Maybe Turing felt that producing more bombes - and getting them across the Atlantic - remember! - would be slowed than an elegant mental solution?
    The American Navy bombes weren't going to the UK - the raw intercepts were being sent to the US by teleprinter.

    They were also quite a bit faster than the UK version.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,244
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:
    An extraordinarily young man to have committed such a heinous act.
    (Assuming he did. Which of course we shouldn't).
    Not really sure that it is.

    The likes of Adams sent many such to their deaths.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    isam said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1329115695217577986

    Keir successfully swerves bad press, makes it look like the NEC aren't on his side and will reform it, a blinder

    Splitting the labour vote in half a Blinder?!
    Indeed I will vote Lab in 2021 for my excellent Labour Candidate

    Cant see me voting SKS in 2024 if he continues down his current path
    Jeremy Corbyn! It's all about Jeremy. His ego is bigger than Johnson's majority!
  • isam said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1329115695217577986

    Keir successfully swerves bad press, makes it look like the NEC aren't on his side and will reform it, a blinder

    Splitting the labour vote in half a Blinder?!
    Indeed I will vote Lab in 2021 for my excellent Labour Candidate

    Cant see me voting SKS in 2024 if he continues down his current path
    Hmmmm, time for me to start thinking about that too. There's a weirdo independent who stands every time, a really nice Green candidate, but I'm not too keen on the Greens right now. I could vote Labour but that would only be to stick it to the Tories*, and I don't want to blot my copybook. No idea on most of the candidates personally, or their policies.

    *I'm not a fan of voting in locals to send a message nationally, cos I think it's quite disrespectful to the local candidates, but when you've got such total bastards in charge like now, it's tempting.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited November 2020
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    Bit pointless - she'd still be queen of the place.
    Make one major constitutional change and people might make another, particularly once she is gone.
    She'd still own Balmoral in her own right so could pop up there for hols still whenever she wanted, assuming the CTA survives Sindy. Hopefully the SNP won't decide to expropriate absentee landlords.

    Of course, who knows, the fall-out of a break-up of the UK could lead to a revived Commonwealth of England, so Brenda could end up as a Scandi-style resident monarch of Scotland.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The thing is, when most elements of the far left have spent every day since Starmer was elected launching absolutely blistering attacks on Keir Starmer and practising serial diloyalty, after a while it ceases to become anything of note.
    And vice versa during Corbyn's hegemony? If Labour is to form the next government then these factions have to find a way to work together and that means ending provocations from either side.
    Not vice versa as far as Starmer was concerned.

    Starmer was a sycophantic toady to Corbyn when he was in the Shadow Cabinet only finding a moral consciousness after he got the top job.
    Well, like Kruschev under Stalin, Deng Xiopeng under Mao, Thatcher under Heath, or Major under Thatcher, sometimes you have to hold your tongue and position in order to achieve the ability to act. It is not unique to any particular political party.
    Philip Thompson affects to hate and denigrate Starmer because subconsciously he realises that Starmer is a competent leader and Johnson is an incompetent hopeless buffoon. It is the main reason why Johnson's apologists are so genuinely frightened of Starmer, and so they should be.
    I don't hate Starmer. I dislike him (but I'd probably dislike all Labour leaders except Blair), but I don't hate him. Nor do I fear him, I think we might lose to him but I'm not afraid of that, I was terrified of losing to Corbyn - even though losing to Corbyn was less likely the consequences if we had would be catastrophic. Losing to Starmer would be disappointing but not catastrophic.
    I'll put you down as a "maybe".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    kle4 said:

    glw said:

    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    I'm sure I've said this before, but I can't help repeating myself. Enigma wasn't even the most important cryptosystem broken, it was Fish, which was the code used by the German High Command. Flowers deserves at least as much credit for his work as Turing gets, and they are only two out of many others.

    It's a bit like everyone knowing about Project Mercury, but hardly anyone knowing about the minor matter of LANDING ON THE MOON in Project Apollo.
    I had indeed never heard of Fish or Tommy Flowers.
    Wikipedia isn't too bad on this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_(cryptography)

    This was the strategic communication network for the Germans. Literally getting the inside track on what the German military was going to do next, at the top level.
  • MattW said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    Which meaning of "arch" is that? :smile:
    This one, from my OED app.


    Why are you using the OED?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Been rather busy today, what idiocy did Toby Young do today that he had to delete?

    Mess up calculating 50 000 / 5 000 000.

    The "Toby Young" who is into traditional academic values and had a part in setting up a genuinely good secondary school must be furious that there's a gibbering fool who keeps popping up spouting rubbish who shares the same name.
    Further proof that the University of Oxford is a complete dump.
    As no Cambridge graduate would ever make a fool of herself with numbers on live TV.
    We gave the world Alan Turing, you gave the world Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings, and Toby Young.
    That was Alan Turning who argued against the US knocking up a version of Enigma that could always crack the code because it was “inelegant”
    Without Alan Turing millions more people would have died. Shameful post from you.
    I’m sorry?

    You have a fucking weird sense of proportion.

    I made a snide comment - in the light of @TheScreamingEagles tedious meme about Oxbridge - about one really stupid thing that Turing did.

    Let’s be clear: he played an important role leading a team that was instrumental in winning the war. That does not mean that everything he did was perfect and it does not make him immune to criticism.

    You, on the other hand, cheerfully supported (and I believe campaigned for) the election of an anti-Semite and a defender of anti-Semites to be our PM.

    *That* is something you should be deeply ashamed of. I appreciate that you have recanted your mistake, but only once he lost. You don’t get credit for that. my snide comment - nah. No comparison
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    kle4 said:

    glw said:

    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    I'm sure I've said this before, but I can't help repeating myself. Enigma wasn't even the most important cryptosystem broken, it was Fish, which was the code used by the German High Command. Flowers deserves at least as much credit for his work as Turing gets, and they are only two out of many others.

    It's a bit like everyone knowing about Project Mercury, but hardly anyone knowing about the minor matter of LANDING ON THE MOON in Project Apollo.
    I had indeed never heard of Fish or Tommy Flowers.
    Wikipedia isn't too bad on this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_(cryptography)

    This was the strategic communication network for the Germans. Literally getting the inside track on what the German military was going to do next, at the top level.
    It does neatly illustrate the weak link between fame and achievement. Of course none of the people worked on Ultra seeking fame, so it doesn't ultimately matter, but it would be nice if such an important part of WWII history wasn't reduced down to one bloke and one cipher machine when it was a very large project with thousands of people involved.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kle4 said:

    In light of the fact that there is no fraud, a technical omission on an envelope should not render a ballot invalid. The lack of a written date onan otherwise qualified ballot is a minor technical defect that does not render it deficient
    Doesn't that mean that the court has effectively said that the ballot does need to be dated?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Can expect no less from @Charles and his sycophantic support of Dido.

    Have you got out of the wrong side of bed today?

    I know Dido. She’s a friend of my Mum’s and she serves on the advisory board for my foundation.

    Lovely lady. Sweet and charming. But utterly useless in running complex organisations.

    Has the meaning of the word “sycophantic” changed since I last looked?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    I have a feeling liz might not be so keen on the current PM.
    Indeed, I think she really will go postal on the PM who does his best to lose Scotland, she's quite fond of the place, especially given her mother's family.
    Bit pointless - she'd still be queen of the place.
    Make one major constitutional change and people might make another, particularly once she is gone.
    Not likely when she is alive. And not even after that, with the Princess Royal fronting for them up here and the relatives (incl. the difficult ones) elsewhere. Just not a priority issue, unless and until someone really screws up (as in Oz).
    Get the spongers out as soon as Lizzie croaks it.
    If everyone could be as concise reading the thread would be easy!
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    In light of the fact that there is no fraud, a technical omission on an envelope should not render a ballot invalid. The lack of a written date onan otherwise qualified ballot is a minor technical defect that does not render it deficient
    Doesn't that mean that the court has effectively said that the ballot does need to be dated?
    How on earth do you read that from "does not render it deficient"?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Charles said:

    Can expect no less from @Charles and his sycophantic support of Dido.

    Have you got out of the wrong side of bed today?

    I know Dido. She’s a friend of my Mum’s and she serves on the advisory board for my foundation.

    Lovely lady. Sweet and charming. But utterly useless in running complex organisations.

    Has the meaning of the word “sycophantic” changed since I last looked?
    I hope she doesn't read PB!
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    Watching The Crown was amazed Michael Fagan entered Buckingham Palace twice.
    On the second occasion sat on the Queens bed, whilst she was in it.
    Must have been a truly frightening experience.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Yorkcity said:

    Flanner said:



    There was an article around the time Lady Thatcher died which pointed out The Queen liked Lady Thatcher a lot, there was the OM, and the fact she attended Thatcher's 80th birthday, there were a lot of ways the Queen could have dissed Lady Thatcher but she didn't.

    Don't you think that the Queen - and probably both her father and grandfather - would regard "disliking" virtually any PM as profoundly unprofessional?
    Yup, but there has this meme that refuses to die that Thatcher and the Queen hated each other, the evidence is that they had a warm and cordial relationship.

    Whilst I'm an arch republican, one thing I've always admired about her is that the contents of her weekly audience with her PM has never leaked.
    Watching The Crown was amazed Michael Fagan entered Buckingham Palace twice.
    On the second occasion sat on the Queens bed, whilst she was in it.
    Must have been a truly frightening experience.
    Immortalised by Morrissey in the lyrics to ‘The Queen is Dead’.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1329115695217577986

    Keir successfully swerves bad press, makes it look like the NEC aren't on his side and will reform it, a blinder

    A blinder overstates it but giving someone a kicking always seems to enhance the reputation of political leaders here. Whether Corbyn was already so battered it just looks liked flogging a dead dog we'll find out.
    There are people out there still dreaming the dream of Corbyn. Starmer probably has to flog that dog a lot before they get the message.
    This would be a dangerous split if a figure like Rayner or Thornberry had come out in support of Corbyn, but conspicuously they haven’t - and the only support he has within the Party is from a few has-beens and never-wases. He’s finished now.
    Oh what a shame.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The thing is, when most elements of the far left have spent every day since Starmer was elected launching absolutely blistering attacks on Keir Starmer and practising serial diloyalty, after a while it ceases to become anything of note.
    And vice versa during Corbyn's hegemony? If Labour is to form the next government then these factions have to find a way to work together and that means ending provocations from either side.
    Not vice versa as far as Starmer was concerned.

    Starmer was a sycophantic toady to Corbyn when he was in the Shadow Cabinet only finding a moral consciousness after he got the top job.
    Well, like Kruschev under Stalin, Deng Xiopeng under Mao, Thatcher under Heath, or Major under Thatcher, sometimes you have to hold your tongue and position in order to achieve the ability to act. It is not unique to any particular political party.
    Philip Thompson affects to hate and denigrate Starmer because subconsciously he realises that Starmer is a competent leader and Johnson is an incompetent hopeless buffoon. It is the main reason why Johnson's apologists are so genuinely frightened of Starmer, and so they should be.
    I don't think it's subconscious. His love for Johnson seems embarrassingly real and he's prepared to spout any bilge to protect him.
  • MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    In light of the fact that there is no fraud, a technical omission on an envelope should not render a ballot invalid. The lack of a written date onan otherwise qualified ballot is a minor technical defect that does not render it deficient
    Doesn't that mean that the court has effectively said that the ballot does need to be dated?
    No. The case was about ballots where the elector had failed to mark the date themselves on the outer envelope of the submitted ballot but the ballot had been received in time.

    Whilst a technical defect in completing the form, it is hard (impossible?) to see how the elector marking the date on the outer envelope provides any protection against fraud in addition to simple date of receipt. If there was a fraudulant attempt to vote after the deadline, surely the voter would just write an earlier date on the envelope rather than leaving it blank? And they'd be caught by date of receipt.

    It's akin to being asked to mark the ballot paper with a cross in the UK and instead marking it with a tick... technically failing to follow the instruction, but not invalid.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    In light of the fact that there is no fraud, a technical omission on an envelope should not render a ballot invalid. The lack of a written date onan otherwise qualified ballot is a minor technical defect that does not render it deficient
    Doesn't that mean that the court has effectively said that the ballot does need to be dated?
    That I don't know, but it seems important that in the absence of actual fraud, technical defects do not cause invalidation.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The thing is, when most elements of the far left have spent every day since Starmer was elected launching absolutely blistering attacks on Keir Starmer and practising serial diloyalty, after a while it ceases to become anything of note.
    And vice versa during Corbyn's hegemony? If Labour is to form the next government then these factions have to find a way to work together and that means ending provocations from either side.
    Not vice versa as far as Starmer was concerned.

    Starmer was a sycophantic toady to Corbyn when he was in the Shadow Cabinet only finding a moral consciousness after he got the top job.
    Well, like Kruschev under Stalin, Deng Xiopeng under Mao, Thatcher under Heath, or Major under Thatcher, sometimes you have to hold your tongue and position in order to achieve the ability to act. It is not unique to any particular political party.
    Philip Thompson affects to hate and denigrate Starmer because subconsciously he realises that Starmer is a competent leader and Johnson is an incompetent hopeless buffoon. It is the main reason why Johnson's apologists are so genuinely frightened of Starmer, and so they should be.
    Hmm. I think Starmer seems to be doing a pretty good job, but I'd be wary of this 'those who are frightened of Starmer are the ones criticising him' stuff. It may be true to a point, but it is also what people say about crap leaders who are criticised, like Corbyn.
    Labour needs to focus on Biden's victory but also Democrats' relative failure in down-ticket races. Biden's main case was not being Trump. In our context, Starmer is not Corbyn and he is not Boris but unlike in America, we can and probably will change Prime Minister before the election.

    Labour risks finding that simply not being Boris, or Corbyn, is no great advantage when facing PM Gove, Hunt or Sunak, who is also neither Boris nor Corbyn.
    Isn’t it as simple as that?

    Biden campaigned as “not Trump” and won

    But “not Trump” isn’t a relevant manifesto for the congressman from lesser Podunk so there wasn’t a coattail effect.
  • Sounds like the Crown is going down about as well as the last season of tits and dragons.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,099
    edited November 2020
    COVID is a funny bugger. Just heard that alex dowcett, the pro cyclist has contracted covid and had to call off his attempt at the world hour record. Only reason he suspected it, couldn't get his usual power output during a training session and drank a non alcoholic beer with a meal that tasted rank.

    His partner, who he lives in a very small flat with, hasn't got it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    edited November 2020
    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    glw said:

    Alan Turing made major contributions to the ULTRA decryptions.

    However, to claim that it was all down to him, is simply wrong. Engima was broken before he got involved.

    Dilly Knox did more, but is ignored in the popular imagination. As is Tommy Flowers.

    I'm sure I've said this before, but I can't help repeating myself. Enigma wasn't even the most important cryptosystem broken, it was Fish, which was the code used by the German High Command. Flowers deserves at least as much credit for his work as Turing gets, and they are only two out of many others.

    It's a bit like everyone knowing about Project Mercury, but hardly anyone knowing about the minor matter of LANDING ON THE MOON in Project Apollo.
    I had indeed never heard of Fish or Tommy Flowers.
    Wikipedia isn't too bad on this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_(cryptography)

    This was the strategic communication network for the Germans. Literally getting the inside track on what the German military was going to do next, at the top level.
    It does neatly illustrate the weak link between fame and achievement. Of course none of the people worked on Ultra seeking fame, so it doesn't ultimately matter, but it would be nice if such an important part of WWII history wasn't reduced down to one bloke and one cipher machine when it was a very large project with thousands of people involved.
    Or the work of Operations Researchers. While the people at the front end were demanding giant depth charges - culminating in the Mk X - they pointed out that the evidence was that what was needed was better targeting combined with a weapon that matched the accuracy of the targeting to the "spread"

    Which led to Hedgehog and then Squid.

    Which turned attacking U Boats from throwing depth charges at them until you ran out, to kill rates per attack that were off the charts.

    More dead Nazis per dollar/pound by an order of magnitude.

    It turned the Battle of the North Atlantic from a battle to a slaughter. Of U Boats. Well that and closing the air cover gap.
  • "Beyond fiction" is a rather odd turn of phrase.

    What is "beyond fiction"? Fact?

    I also heard some commentator or other say "artistic licence doesn't mean you can make up your own facts". To which the answer is that is EXACTLY what artistic licence means by definition.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited November 2020

    Sounds like the Crown is going down about as well as the last season of tits and dragons.

    They have made up a lot of stuff to fit with their narrative. For example they have Mrs T, after she fails to clear the hurdle in the Tory leadership election when Heseltine took her on, marching into the Queen and asking her to dissolve parliament, so she can stay on.

    An idea more than twenty five years ahead of its time.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    isam said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1329115695217577986

    Keir successfully swerves bad press, makes it look like the NEC aren't on his side and will reform it, a blinder

    Splitting the labour vote in half a Blinder?!
    Indeed I will vote Lab in 2021 for my excellent Labour Candidate

    Cant see me voting SKS in 2024 if he continues down his current path
    Jeremy Corbyn! It's all about Jeremy. His ego is bigger than Johnson's majority!
    Why do you think that?

    Seems the least egotistical politician i can remember. Always uses we, us, our


    The polar opposite of eg Jess Phillips

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Can expect no less from @Charles and his sycophantic support of Dido.

    Have you got out of the wrong side of bed today?

    I know Dido. She’s a friend of my Mum’s and she serves on the advisory board for my foundation.

    Lovely lady. Sweet and charming. But utterly useless in running complex organisations.

    Has the meaning of the word “sycophantic” changed since I last looked?
    So why does she keep being put in charge of running complex organizations?
    Because governments - all governments - tend to appoint people who they know. If you hang around in the right places long enough and don’t piss anyone off you’ll get a sinecure.

    Also - TBF - until she messed up at TalkTalk she had a good track record. And until track and trace (which is basically running a call centre) she hadn’t had another big job
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    Sounds like the Crown is going down about as well as the last season of tits and dragons.

    I might give it a go. It seems to annoy all the right people.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    It does seem odd that Cummings wanted to terminate our relationship with the second biggest trading block in the world in exchange for a one way ticket to Palookaville. Good riddance
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364

    isam said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1329115695217577986

    Keir successfully swerves bad press, makes it look like the NEC aren't on his side and will reform it, a blinder

    Splitting the labour vote in half a Blinder?!
    Indeed I will vote Lab in 2021 for my excellent Labour Candidate

    Cant see me voting SKS in 2024 if he continues down his current path
    Jeremy Corbyn! It's all about Jeremy. His ego is bigger than Johnson's majority!
    Why do you think that?

    Seems the least egotistical politician i can remember. Always uses we, us, our


    The polar opposite of eg Jess Phillips

    There is a kind of humbleness that is actually a form of demented self centred-ness.

    "Look at me, the saint"...
This discussion has been closed.