Rumours were swirling in Westminster that the aide resigned over an inquiry into the leaked news of the decision to lock down England on October 30. While some Whitehall officials speculated Mr Cain may have been “partially” to blame for the story, he has “categorically denied” responsibility.
Does anyone know what Cummings' attitude is regarding the lockdown? Is he more or less pro-lockdown than Johnson, or about the same?
People couldn't make up their minds earlier in the year. It was stated it was him holding back a lockdown and ignoring the scientists, then that he had sought one earlier and pressured the scientists.
Frost going could be the trigger/excuse for the Government to agree to an extension of the transition period.
Hmmm. A Remainer victory at the last moment? Seems .... unlikely.
Could it be down to a compromise being needed in the negotiations regarding state support, which always seemed like a very non-Tory thing to be arguing about in the first place? If Dom doesn't get any industrial toys to play with for Christmas...
Seems like a stretch. The government's done a lot wrong, but I doubt confusion of backroom gigs like that hinders effective (or indeed ineffective) virus response, nor that you cannot do this sort of thing at the same time as a great (or terrible) response without there being a connection.
I expect the Farage article was a taste of what to come, after Biden's election win Boris is about to cave on state aid to get a deal with the EU and the Vote Leave diehards around Cummings like Cain etc are leaving like rats from the no compromise Brexit ship and Cummings may well go down with them too within a week
On the subject of Pfizer's vaccine, it's not injected at -70 degrees (obviously), but is thawed first. After thawing the vaccine is good to use for five days.
No surprise they aren't commenting on the relative success of the UK this time around.
Amazing how HMG from PM down, instead of touting good news on the anti-COVID vaccine front, are obsessed with staging their very own Night of the Long Knives for Mini-Mes.
Frost going could be the trigger/excuse for the Government to agree to an extension of the transition period.
Hmmm. A Remainer victory at the last moment? Seems .... unlikely.
Could it be down to a compromise being needed in the negotiations regarding state support, which always seemed like a very non-Tory thing to be arguing about in the first place? If Dom doesn't get any industrial toys to play with for Christmas...
More generally, whatever real Brexit looks like, it will be (at best) a letdown. No single model of the B-thing, even a brilliant one, could possibly support all the different hopes people have been allowed to project onto it. And what we get is likely to be less than brilliant.
If I were associated with getting us to this point, I'd be looking for an excuse to get out, while my metaphorical head was still metaphorically attached to my metaphorical body.
Bye then Dom and don't forget to shut the door on your way out!!
Dom is about to find out nobody is indispensible if they come in the way of Boris' career ambition, including him, if he is the roadblock to a deal with Barnier and Biden then Cummings will discover the Thorpe quote on Macmillan remains equally true for Boris "Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his friends for his life."
I expect the Farage article was a taste of what to come, after Biden's election win Boris is about to cave on state aid to get a deal with the EU and the Vote Leave diehards around Cummings like Cain etc are leaving like rats from the no compromise Brexit ship and Cummings may well go down with them too within a week
On the subject of Pfizer's vaccine, it's not injected at -70 degrees (obviously), but is thawed first. After thawing the vaccine is good to use for five days.
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
This is a very good example of the self entitled incompetence of the current government. I wrote to my MP about the appointment of Dido Harding which was the same. Process exists for a reason and following it is good. Any fool can throw hundreds of millions at companies to secure contracts as this government seems to be proving. Unfortunately they have no magic money tree to pay the bill. So we will all have to suffer massive tax hikes to meet the cost of their payments to their mates.
Bingham at least has some competencies in the field ...
It matters not how he does it. If he wins the EC on Dec 14 Trump will remain in office, neither Secret service or Military will remove him, nor will Dems urge their supporters to take up arms, any sort of violence plays straight into Trumps hands. If Trump achieves Scenario 1 or 2, the battle ground will be courts and ballot boxes in the years to come.
We have had 4 years of Trump, some more of it isn’t the end of the world when compared to actual violence. We agree so far?
Completely disagree.
If Biden is seen to have won, and the Electoral College decides otherwise then there will be civil war in the US.
I don't know about civil war, but the people will be entitled to use the minimum action necessary to prevent the end of democracy. A general strike, a blockade of the White House, a refusal to pay taxes could be starters.
I don't think it'll be necessary. Trump is setting himself up to be The Opposition. He'll be good at it, and he's entitled to try that and stand next time or have an anointed acolyte.. Override this election? Nah.
Thank you, I think we agree, if Republicans gerrymander the college and SC back them it’s a crisis, but the army or secret service won’t then evict him, nor the democrats result to anything other than you described, mass rally’s, civil disobedience, the courts. I don’t know about blockades though, that, and any blockade busting violence plays into Trumps hands.
The bit I disagree with though, you paint such a rosy future for Trump outside the whitehouse. Truth is, it’s stay in control or lose control and end up to his eyebrows in trouble isn’t it?
Has the Supreme Court - at any point - done anything that would lead you to believe they'd back Trump on this?
No, but there may be subtler ways to get there that shift the blame around.
Say Trump (not saying he's this competent but bear with me) staged a national security event that prevented the Electoral College from meeting or prevented some of the electors from getting there. Then the thing should go to the House, but the Dems realize they'll pick Trump so they refuse to meet, in the hope of seating Pelosi. Then SCOTUS conservatives make a ruling to throw the thing back to House congressional delegations, and they pick Trump.
If you can create enough chaos and disruption, while having your thumb on most of the scales, you may be able to exploit a succession of small biases, without forcing any one party to commit to a big one.
As SeaShanty pointed out, the EC does not meet in one place, but in 51:
"Electoral college delegations meet separately in their respective states and the District of Columbia at places designated by their state legislature. The electors vote by paper ballot, casting one ballot for President and one for Vice President. The electors count the results and then sign six certificates, each of which contains two lists, one of which includes the electoral votes for the President, the other, electoral votes for the Vice President, each of which includes the names of persons receiving votes and the number of votes cast for them. These are known as Certificates of the Vote, which the electors are required to sign. They then pair the six Certificates of Ascertainment provided by the state governors with the Certificates of the Vote, and sign, seal, and certify them (3 U.S.C. §§8-10). The six certificates are then distributed by registered mail as follows: (1) one certificate to the President of the U.S. Senate (the Vice President); (2) two certificates to the secretary of state (or equivalent officer) of the state in which the electors met; (3) two certificates to the Archivist; and (4) one certificate to the judge of the U.S. district court of the district in which the electors met (3 U.S.C. §11)."
"January 6, 2021: Joint Session of Congress to Count Electoral Votes and Declare Election Results Meets On January 6, or another date set by law, the Senate and House of Representatives assemble at 1:00 p.m. in a joint session at the Capitol, in the House chamber, to count the electoral votes and declare the results (3 U.S.C. §15). The Vice President presides as President of the Senate. The Vice President opens the certificates and presents them to four tellers, two from each chamber. The tellers read and make a list of the returns. When the votes have been ascertained and counted, the tellers transmit them to the Vice President. If one of the tickets has received a majority of 270 or more electoral votes, the Vice President announces the results, which “shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President.”
"Joint Session Challenges to Electoral Vote Returns While the tellers announce the results, Members may object to the returns from any individual state as they are announced. Objections to individual state returns must be made in writing by at least one Member each of the Senate and House of Representatives. If an objection meets these requirements, the joint session recesses and the two houses separate and debate the question in their respective chambers for a maximum of two hours. The two houses then vote separately to accept or reject the objection. They then reassemble in joint session, and announce the results of their respective votes. An objection to a state’s electoral vote must be approved by both houses in order for any contested votes to be excluded."
Re: question of "faithless electors" note that recent SCOTUS rulings give teeth to state laws requiring electors to vote for the ticket to which they are pledged when their party presidential & vp slate won the statewide popular vote. For example, in WA state law says that an elector who attempts to vote for candidate(s) other than pledged is automatically removed and replaced by an elector who will vote for the statewide winner.
Re: legislatures doing post-EDay end-runs to replace elected electors, note that this would require solid party line votes to accomplish in various state legislatures, plus plethora of legal hoops & hurdles. Do NOT think this is a good bet - heated rhetoric is one thing, rash over-reaction is quite another.
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
Yep. The single most important piece of news in years - and a huge success for the UK government in securing a large supply for its people - and all we get is incessant whinging about irrelevancies. Typical.
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
On the subject of Pfizer's vaccine, it's not injected at -70 degrees (obviously), but is thawed first. After thawing the vaccine is good to use for five days.
'Philip Ashton, the CEO and co-founder of AI logistics company 7bridges, said: "Moving and storing dry ice shipments is much more complex, and requires more expertise and infrastructure, than the two to eight degrees Celsius cold chain.
"Far fewer sites that may be able to administer a vaccine will currently have storage facilities for dry ice or easy access to supplies of dry ice if they have to store the vaccine for any length of time. There are ways around this, such as just-in-time fulfilment of the vaccine, but this creates different challenges, principally that any disruptions to transport schedules can leave distribution sites without vaccine stock.
"Because of the additional complexity associated with the dry ice dependent vaccines, all other things being equal, a vaccine that can be kept at two to eight degrees Celsius will be much simpler to distribute and store and therefore administer to a population." '
Sounds like something which is possible at a pinch, but you definitely wouldn't bother with if there is an alternative. Which is fine, cos we are covered either way.
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
That's quite the negative take. I don't say that cyclefree's piece is entirely irrelevant as bluestblue suggests, but it really does seem like the UK's vaccine provision is going to be pretty good and talk of missing out on the 'best' one for some does not seem reasonable on the face of it.
On the subject of Pfizer's vaccine, it's not injected at -70 degrees (obviously), but is thawed first. After thawing the vaccine is good to use for five days.
Distribution is not going to be that big a deal.
Based on what you know - and not holding you to it - when do you reckon the shot will be offered to a 65-year-old geezer with several other COVID risk factors?
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
If that is what is happening then his, call it flexibility, will be a boon at this moment at least, though it was just days ago people were implying how distraught he would be by Trump going as if he was a committed hard right populist. I'm getting whiplash.
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
That's quite the negative take. I don't say that cyclefree's piece is entirely irrelevant as bluestblue suggests, but it really does seem like the UK's vaccine provision is going to be pretty good and talk of missing out on the 'best' one for some does not seem reasonable on the face of it.
Its more than quite and a very dangerous headline. If the guardian was more widely read it might have 20-30 year olds thinking lets not get it, because not very effective...when even 60-70%, we are massively reducing suspectible population and of course risk for it to spread young to old.
This is a very good example of the self entitled incompetence of the current government. I wrote to my MP about the appointment of Dido Harding which was the same. Process exists for a reason and following it is good. Any fool can throw hundreds of millions at companies to secure contracts as this government seems to be proving. Unfortunately they have no magic money tree to pay the bill. So we will all have to suffer massive tax hikes to meet the cost of their payments to their mates.
Bingham at least has some competencies in the field ...
Citation needed.
She’s not a vaccine or manufacturing expert, as far as I can see. But she’s a deal maker in the sector, and in this case that’s a vastly superior qualification to anything Harding can claim in the testing department.
She’s proved effing useless when she opens her mouth in public, of course. But has sensibly shut up since.
I disagree with those rubbishing Cyclefree’s header. The decision early on to bet large sums of money on vaccines was the government’s (and probably the only unquestionably good decision they’ve made this pandemic). Bingham was as much the beneficiary as the rest of us. Anyone with strong commercial competence in the sector might well have achieved a similar result, and the fact that she’s been put in charge of a successful vaccines effort doesn’t give give her a free pass to ignore basic ethics.
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
If that is what is happening then his, call it flexibility, will be a boon at this moment at least, though it was just days ago people were implying how distraught he would be by Trump going as if he was a committed hard right populist. I'm getting whiplash.
Boris has never let principles get in the way of an opportunity.
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
Did you read just the headline or understand the details?
Yes there are limited quantities of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine going to be available. We've ordered 40 million doses but they're only going to produce 40 million worldwide before the end of the year - we're not going to get 100% of that, we should get 25% thanks to the fantastic work of this taskforce.
If it turns out that the Oxford/AZ vaccine is (say) 80% effective and we have millions of doses of that then what should we do? Use the limited stock of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that we have and the Oxford/AZ vaccine? Or use the Pfizer one and throw away the Oxford/AZ vaccine?
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
Did you read just the headline or understand the details?
Yes there are limited quantities of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine going to be available. We've ordered 40 million doses but they're only going to produce 40 million worldwide before the end of the year - we're not going to get 100% of that, we should get 25% thanks to the fantastic work of this taskforce.
If it turns out that the Oxford/AZ vaccine is (say) 80% effective and we have millions of doses of that then what should we do? Use the limited stock of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that we have and the Oxford/AZ vaccine? Or use the Pfizer one and throw away the Oxford/AZ vaccine?
You missed.my point....you said people were being negative and i linked the guardian doing exactly that...with a misleading and frankly potentially dangerous headline.
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
Did you read just the headline or understand the details?
Yes there are limited quantities of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine going to be available. We've ordered 40 million doses but they're only going to produce 40 million worldwide before the end of the year - we're not going to get 100% of that, we should get 25% thanks to the fantastic work of this taskforce.
If it turns out that the Oxford/AZ vaccine is (say) 80% effective and we have millions of doses of that then what should we do? Use the limited stock of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that we have and the Oxford/AZ vaccine? Or use the Pfizer one and throw away the Oxford/AZ vaccine?
You missed.my point....you said peiple were being negative and i linked the guardian doing exactly that.
Ah I see. Sorry I misunderstood your point, yes you're right that's a prime example.
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
Did you read just the headline or understand the details?
Yes there are limited quantities of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine going to be available. We've ordered 40 million doses but they're only going to produce 40 million worldwide before the end of the year - we're not going to get 100% of that, we should get 25% thanks to the fantastic work of this taskforce.
If it turns out that the Oxford/AZ vaccine is (say) 80% effective and we have millions of doses of that then what should we do? Use the limited stock of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that we have and the Oxford/AZ vaccine? Or use the Pfizer one and throw away the Oxford/AZ vaccine?
It matters not how he does it. If he wins the EC on Dec 14 Trump will remain in office, neither Secret service or Military will remove him, nor will Dems urge their supporters to take up arms, any sort of violence plays straight into Trumps hands. If Trump achieves Scenario 1 or 2, the battle ground will be courts and ballot boxes in the years to come.
We have had 4 years of Trump, some more of it isn’t the end of the world when compared to actual violence. We agree so far?
Completely disagree.
If Biden is seen to have won, and the Electoral College decides otherwise then there will be civil war in the US.
I don't know about civil war, but the people will be entitled to use the minimum action necessary to prevent the end of democracy. A general strike, a blockade of the White House, a refusal to pay taxes could be starters.
I don't think it'll be necessary. Trump is setting himself up to be The Opposition. He'll be good at it, and he's entitled to try that and stand next time or have an anointed acolyte.. Override this election? Nah.
Thank you, I think we agree, if Republicans gerrymander the college and SC back them it’s a crisis, but the army or secret service won’t then evict him, nor the democrats result to anything other than you described, mass rally’s, civil disobedience, the courts. I don’t know about blockades though, that, and any blockade busting violence plays into Trumps hands.
The bit I disagree with though, you paint such a rosy future for Trump outside the whitehouse. Truth is, it’s stay in control or lose control and end up to his eyebrows in trouble isn’t it?
Has the Supreme Court - at any point - done anything that would lead you to believe they'd back Trump on this?
No, but there may be subtler ways to get there that shift the blame around.
Say Trump (not saying he's this competent but bear with me) staged a national security event that prevented the Electoral College from meeting or prevented some of the electors from getting there. Then the thing should go to the House, but the Dems realize they'll pick Trump so they refuse to meet, in the hope of seating Pelosi. Then SCOTUS conservatives make a ruling to throw the thing back to House congressional delegations, and they pick Trump.
If you can create enough chaos and disruption, while having your thumb on most of the scales, you may be able to exploit a succession of small biases, without forcing any one party to commit to a big one.
As SeaShanty pointed out, the EC does not meet in one place, but in 51:
"Electoral college delegations meet separately in their respective states and the District of Columbia at places designated by their state legislature. The electors vote by paper ballot, casting one ballot for President and one for Vice President. The electors count the results and then sign six certificates, each of which contains two lists, one of which includes the electoral votes for the President, the other, electoral votes for the Vice President, each of which includes the names of persons receiving votes and the number of votes cast for them. These are known as Certificates of the Vote, which the electors are required to sign. They then pair the six Certificates of Ascertainment provided by the state governors with the Certificates of the Vote, and sign, seal, and certify them (3 U.S.C. §§8-10). The six certificates are then distributed by registered mail as follows: (1) one certificate to the President of the U.S. Senate (the Vice President); (2) two certificates to the secretary of state (or equivalent officer) of the state in which the electors met; (3) two certificates to the Archivist; and (4) one certificate to the judge of the U.S. district court of the district in which the electors met (3 U.S.C. §11)."
"January 6, 2021: Joint Session of Congress to Count Electoral Votes and Declare Election Results Meets On January 6, or another date set by law, the Senate and House of Representatives assemble at 1:00 p.m. in a joint session at the Capitol, in the House chamber, to count the electoral votes and declare the results (3 U.S.C. §15). The Vice President presides as President of the Senate. The Vice President opens the certificates and presents them to four tellers, two from each chamber. The tellers read and make a list of the returns. When the votes have been ascertained and counted, the tellers transmit them to the Vice President. If one of the tickets has received a majority of 270 or more electoral votes, the Vice President announces the results, which “shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President.”
"Joint Session Challenges to Electoral Vote Returns While the tellers announce the results, Members may object to the returns from any individual state as they are announced. Objections to individual state returns must be made in writing by at least one Member each of the Senate and House of Representatives. If an objection meets these requirements, the joint session recesses and the two houses separate and debate the question in their respective chambers for a maximum of two hours. The two houses then vote separately to accept or reject the objection. They then reassemble in joint session, and announce the results of their respective votes. An objection to a state’s electoral vote must be approved by both houses in order for any contested votes to be excluded."
Re: question of "faithless electors" note that recent SCOTUS rulings give teeth to state laws requiring electors to vote for the ticket to which they are pledged when their party presidential & vp slate won the statewide popular vote. For example, in WA state law says that an elector who attempts to vote for candidate(s) other than pledged is automatically removed and replaced by an elector who will vote for the statewide winner.
Re: legislatures doing post-EDay end-runs to replace elected electors, note that this would require solid party line votes to accomplish in various state legislatures, plus plethora of legal hoops & hurdles. Do NOT think this is a good bet - heated rhetoric is one thing, rash over-reaction is quite another.
Thank you 🙂. This is very reassuring.
I have enjoyed all your posts this year shanty.
What do you make from the fact it’s not just hot air from White House? There is genuine pressure out there on GOP leadership because honouring the vote effectively means siding with Biden and dropping Trump in it? If something stupid happens it’s result of that pressure being put on?
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
Boris has always been a metropolitan liberal really hasn’t he? Backing Brexit was just a way of differentiating himself from his main rivals for the top job I think. His hard rightness is a straw man set up by other metropolitan liberals, who voted Remain, in order to have something to scream about
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
Boris of course only decided to back Brexit as he knew it would help his career plans to become Tory leader and PM which is all he really cares about and it did, he does not really care that much about Brexit and certainly is no Brexit ideologue like Cummings, now Trump is going and Biden has won as I predicted Boris will quickly throw the Brexit diehards overboard for a trade deal with the EU and Biden's US and to preserve his career
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
If that is what is happening then his, call it flexibility, will be a boon at this moment at least, though it was just days ago people were implying how distraught he would be by Trump going as if he was a committed hard right populist. I'm getting whiplash.
Boris has always been a liberal. Its why I support him wholeheartedly.
The idea he is a Trumpian populist has always been nonsense.
If Frost goes, that means all red lines are out the window...Tories will be sub 30% when all the Brexit supporters realise they have been shafted again (as they see it).
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
Did you read just the headline or understand the details?
Yes there are limited quantities of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine going to be available. We've ordered 40 million doses but they're only going to produce 40 million worldwide before the end of the year - we're not going to get 100% of that, we should get 25% thanks to the fantastic work of this taskforce.
If it turns out that the Oxford/AZ vaccine is (say) 80% effective and we have millions of doses of that then what should we do? Use the limited stock of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that we have and the Oxford/AZ vaccine? Or use the Pfizer one and throw away the Oxford/AZ vaccine?
That is a pretty stupid headline.
Its downright dangerous. The Guardian should be ashamed of themselves.
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
Boris has always been a metropolitan liberal really hasn’t he? Backing Brexit was just a way of differentiating himself from his main rivals for the top job I think. His hard rightness is a straw man set up by other metropolitan liberals, who voted Remain, in order to have something to scream about
We're days away from him being denounced in comment sections of the internet as basically a LD. Farage may well have picked a good moment to make a splash, time limited though it may be.
It matters not how he does it. If he wins the EC on Dec 14 Trump will remain in office, neither Secret service or Military will remove him, nor will Dems urge their supporters to take up arms, any sort of violence plays straight into Trumps hands. If Trump achieves Scenario 1 or 2, the battle ground will be courts and ballot boxes in the years to come.
We have had 4 years of Trump, some more of it isn’t the end of the world when compared to actual violence. We agree so far?
Completely disagree.
If Biden is seen to have won, and the Electoral College decides otherwise then there will be civil war in the US.
I don't know about civil war, but the people will be entitled to use the minimum action necessary to prevent the end of democracy. A general strike, a blockade of the White House, a refusal to pay taxes could be starters.
I don't think it'll be necessary. Trump is setting himself up to be The Opposition. He'll be good at it, and he's entitled to try that and stand next time or have an anointed acolyte.. Override this election? Nah.
Thank you, I think we agree, if Republicans gerrymander the college and SC back them it’s a crisis, but the army or secret service won’t then evict him, nor the democrats result to anything other than you described, mass rally’s, civil disobedience, the courts. I don’t know about blockades though, that, and any blockade busting violence plays into Trumps hands.
The bit I disagree with though, you paint such a rosy future for Trump outside the whitehouse. Truth is, it’s stay in control or lose control and end up to his eyebrows in trouble isn’t it?
Has the Supreme Court - at any point - done anything that would lead you to believe they'd back Trump on this?
No, but there may be subtler ways to get there that shift the blame around.
Say Trump (not saying he's this competent but bear with me) staged a national security event that prevented the Electoral College from meeting or prevented some of the electors from getting there. Then the thing should go to the House, but the Dems realize they'll pick Trump so they refuse to meet, in the hope of seating Pelosi. Then SCOTUS conservatives make a ruling to throw the thing back to House congressional delegations, and they pick Trump.
If you can create enough chaos and disruption, while having your thumb on most of the scales, you may be able to exploit a succession of small biases, without forcing any one party to commit to a big one.
As SeaShanty pointed out, the EC does not meet in one place, but in 51:
"Electoral college delegations meet separately in their respective states and the District of Columbia at places designated by their state legislature. The electors vote by paper ballot, casting one ballot for President and one for Vice President. The electors count the results and then sign six certificates, each of which contains two lists, one of which includes the electoral votes for the President, the other, electoral votes for the Vice President, each of which includes the names of persons receiving votes and the number of votes cast for them. These are known as Certificates of the Vote, which the electors are required to sign. They then pair the six Certificates of Ascertainment provided by the state governors with the Certificates of the Vote, and sign, seal, and certify them (3 U.S.C. §§8-10). The six certificates are then distributed by registered mail as follows: (1) one certificate to the President of the U.S. Senate (the Vice President); (2) two certificates to the secretary of state (or equivalent officer) of the state in which the electors met; (3) two certificates to the Archivist; and (4) one certificate to the judge of the U.S. district court of the district in which the electors met (3 U.S.C. §11)."
"January 6, 2021: Joint Session of Congress to Count Electoral Votes and Declare Election Results Meets On January 6, or another date set by law, the Senate and House of Representatives assemble at 1:00 p.m. in a joint session at the Capitol, in the House chamber, to count the electoral votes and declare the results (3 U.S.C. §15). The Vice President presides as President of the Senate. The Vice President opens the certificates and presents them to four tellers, two from each chamber. The tellers read and make a list of the returns. When the votes have been ascertained and counted, the tellers transmit them to the Vice President. If one of the tickets has received a majority of 270 or more electoral votes, the Vice President announces the results, which “shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President.”
"Joint Session Challenges to Electoral Vote Returns While the tellers announce the results, Members may object to the returns from any individual state as they are announced. Objections to individual state returns must be made in writing by at least one Member each of the Senate and House of Representatives. If an objection meets these requirements, the joint session recesses and the two houses separate and debate the question in their respective chambers for a maximum of two hours. The two houses then vote separately to accept or reject the objection. They then reassemble in joint session, and announce the results of their respective votes. An objection to a state’s electoral vote must be approved by both houses in order for any contested votes to be excluded."
Re: question of "faithless electors" note that recent SCOTUS rulings give teeth to state laws requiring electors to vote for the ticket to which they are pledged when their party presidential & vp slate won the statewide popular vote. For example, in WA state law says that an elector who attempts to vote for candidate(s) other than pledged is automatically removed and replaced by an elector who will vote for the statewide winner.
Re: legislatures doing post-EDay end-runs to replace elected electors, note that this would require solid party line votes to accomplish in various state legislatures, plus plethora of legal hoops & hurdles. Do NOT think this is a good bet - heated rhetoric is one thing, rash over-reaction is quite another.
Is it just me or does that seem like a whole lot of effort to do very little? We already know the result in each state so these people are going to vote to replicate the existing result and then write it down six times for other people to count?
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
Boris has always been a metropolitan liberal really hasn’t he? Backing Brexit was just a way of differentiating himself from his main rivals for the top job I think. His hard rightness is a straw man set up by other metropolitan liberals, who voted Remain, in order to have something to scream about
Yes he has always been a liberal.
Nothing wrong with that. Brexit will be finished in a matter of weeks one way or another and when it is there's little to distinguish between Boris and Cameron/Clegg..
Boris will be going in 2021. The Tory party won't allow chaos, both real and bad media management, forever. Now vaccine is coming, especially if Oxford is announced in 2-3 weeks, allows Boris to bow out with something.
If Frost goes, that means all red lines are out the window...Tories will be sub 30% when all the Brexit supporters realise they have been shafted again (as they see it).
Sub 30%? No they won't! The moderate voters will just be relieved that Boris dodged a bullet on behalf of a grateful nation.
If Frost goes, that means all red lines are out the window...Tories will be sub 30% when all the Brexit supporters realise they have been shafted again (as they see it).
Sub 30%? No they won't! The moderate voters will just be relieved that Boris dodged a bullet on behalf of a grateful nation.
I don't think they make up the majority of Boris Tory fan club these days.
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
Boris has always been a metropolitan liberal really hasn’t he? Backing Brexit was just a way of differentiating himself from his main rivals for the top job I think. His hard rightness is a straw man set up by other metropolitan liberals, who voted Remain, in order to have something to scream about
We're days away from him being denounced in comment sections of the internet as basically a LD. Farage may well have picked a good moment to make a splash, time limited though it may be.
I doubt Farage prancing around the US acting like Trump's wide-eyed and fawning chief groupie will have helped his street-cred over here though. Boris's political antennae has proved far more astute.
If Frost goes, that means all red lines are out the window...Tories will be sub 30% when all the Brexit supporters realise they have been shafted again (as they see it).
Sub 25%, I suspect.
If it goes that way, Boris won't last till Christmas, let alone the spring.
Boris will be going in 2021. The Tory party won't allow chaos, both real and bad media management, forever. Now vaccine is coming, especially if Oxford is announced in 2-3 weeks, allows Boris to bow out with something.
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
Boris has always been a metropolitan liberal really hasn’t he? Backing Brexit was just a way of differentiating himself from his main rivals for the top job I think. His hard rightness is a straw man set up by other metropolitan liberals, who voted Remain, in order to have something to scream about
We're days away from him being denounced in comment sections of the internet as basically a LD. Farage may well have picked a good moment to make a splash, time limited though it may be.
I doubt Farage prancing around the US acting like Trump's wide-eyed and fawning chief groupie will have helped his street-cred over here though. Boris's political antennae has proved far more astute.
Trump and Farage let their own ego get to their head.
Johnson is completely different. Much more switched on.
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
Boris has always been a metropolitan liberal really hasn’t he? Backing Brexit was just a way of differentiating himself from his main rivals for the top job I think. His hard rightness is a straw man set up by other metropolitan liberals, who voted Remain, in order to have something to scream about
We're days away from him being denounced in comment sections of the internet as basically a LD. Farage may well have picked a good moment to make a splash, time limited though it may be.
I doubt Farage prancing around the US acting like Trump's wide-eyed and fawning chief groupie will have helped his street-cred over here though. Boris's political antennae has proved far more astute.
I don't think he has lasting appeal anymore - crappy deal or no deal, Brexit has happened and anti-lockdown fervour has a time limit on it too - but if Boris is shifting position and upsetting some people, and/or come January there are negative effects exacerbating economic problems, then Farage stomping in will probably muddy the waters for a bit.
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
Boris has always been a metropolitan liberal really hasn’t he? Backing Brexit was just a way of differentiating himself from his main rivals for the top job I think. His hard rightness is a straw man set up by other metropolitan liberals, who voted Remain, in order to have something to scream about
Boris has always been whatever the person he is talking to has wanted him to be. Because that's how Boris makes people like him / sleep with him. Metropolitan liberal, traditional tory, radical Atlanticist, patriotic populist, he can do them all.
Then, when it's convenient to him, he will change into something else. Nothing personal in the betrayal, of course (Hi Jennifer!), it's just what he does.
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
Boris has always been a metropolitan liberal really hasn’t he? Backing Brexit was just a way of differentiating himself from his main rivals for the top job I think. His hard rightness is a straw man set up by other metropolitan liberals, who voted Remain, in order to have something to scream about
Boris has always been whatever the person he is talking to has wanted him to be. Because that's how Boris makes people like him / sleep with him. Metropolitan liberal, traditional tory, radical Atlanticist, patriotic populist, he can do them all.
Then, when it's convenient to him, he will change into something else. Nothing personal in the betrayal, of course (Hi Jennifer!), it's just what he does.
Possibly why I'm convinced that he's a liberal. Have I been suckered in?
Tony Schwarz who ghost-wrote The Art of the Deal for Trump was interviewed by Evan Davis on R4 earlier this evening. He basically answered your question for you.
There is no plan, just a horror of losing and determination to deny it as long as possible.
Appreciated. Trump and his inner cabal are morons. However, as he IS the president and wants to stay President. And the entire GOP leadership aren't morons. So there will be a plan even if it isn't his.
As others elude to above, the Electoral College has to be the target. Doesn't matter what people think they voted for, they're voting for Electors. Who don't even have to represent their views.
By what possible mechanism do Republicans "target" the Electoral College? Where Trump wins a state, the state GOP provides the slate of electors. Where Biden wins a state, the state Democratic Party provides the slate of electors. Several states (although not all) prevent completely or heavily sanction faithless electors. I'm sorry - people saying there's a trick involving the Electoral College simply don't understand how it works.
There isn't a plan here, from Trump or anyone else. Trump has some doomed cases not involving sufficient numbers of voters to cast into doubt any, let alone several, of the states Biden won. He will try and fail to overturn or annul results, but it's all utterly hopeless. Then the Electoral College will announce Biden as President on 14 December, and he'll be inaugurated on 20 January. Trump will never accept it was fair, protecting his ego at the cost of badly damaging democracy in America. Senate Republicans know what the reality is but most of them can't say it as they don't want Trump to set his army of fanatical, drooling morons on them next time they face a primary election.
For some reason, people (both for and strongly against Trump) seem to believe that people who can't book a room for a press conference at the Four Seasons hotel are currently working on the finer points of a plan so brilliant that it will blow our minds. They really, really aren't.
I didn't say it was a *viable* plan. There can be no viable plan. But in the minds of the morons surrounding the Donald its a *brilliant* plan. Epic even. How they win back the TRUE victory or whatever.
It seems to me that there are a number of people surrounding Trump (and including himself) who really know virtually nothing about how the US institutions actually work. When Trump sees stuff said on Fox News or reads stuff on twitter from people who claim authority i think he actually believes it. So he's picking up a little bit of stuff about how states can overrule the voters in selecting electors, and he believes that SCOTUS are totally corruptible and in his pocket. He may well believe all these made stories about electoral fraud that he's been reading. And in his own mind, and those of the likes of his sons, he's thinking he's got a viable route to staying in power. Totally legally as well!
This is why the GOP silence is so disturbing. He needs to be disabused of these fantasies, and sat down and told the truth about how the US works. And if he refuses to accept it then, they have to get Pence to kick him out.
...or just let the electoral processes flow naturally without illegal interference and he'll be out anyway by 20th January.
From the Guardian, "There is a long-shot legal theory, floated by Republicans before the election, that Republican-friendly legislatures in places such as Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania could ignore the popular vote in their states and appoint their own electors". Just saying?
It matters not how he does it. If he wins the EC on Dec 14 Trump will remain in office, neither Secret service or Military will remove him, nor will Dems urge their supporters to take up arms, any sort of violence plays straight into Trumps hands. If Trump achieves Scenario 1 or 2, the battle ground will be courts and ballot boxes in the years to come.
We have had 4 years of Trump, some more of it isn’t the end of the world when compared to actual violence. We agree so far?
Completely disagree.
If Biden is seen to have won, and the Electoral College decides otherwise then there will be civil war in the US.
I don't know about civil war, but the people will be entitled to use the minimum action necessary to prevent the end of democracy. A general strike, a blockade of the White House, a refusal to pay taxes could be starters.
I don't think it'll be necessary. Trump is setting himself up to be The Opposition. He'll be good at it, and he's entitled to try that and stand next time or have an anointed acolyte.. Override this election? Nah.
Thank you, I think we agree, if Republicans gerrymander the college and SC back them it’s a crisis, but the army or secret service won’t then evict him, nor the democrats result to anything other than you described, mass rally’s, civil disobedience, the courts. I don’t know about blockades though, that, and any blockade busting violence plays into Trumps hands.
The bit I disagree with though, you paint such a rosy future for Trump outside the whitehouse. Truth is, it’s stay in control or lose control and end up to his eyebrows in trouble isn’t it?
Has the Supreme Court - at any point - done anything that would lead you to believe they'd back Trump on this?
No, but there may be subtler ways to get there that shift the blame around.
Say Trump (not saying he's this competent but bear with me) staged a national security event that prevented the Electoral College from meeting or prevented some of the electors from getting there. Then the thing should go to the House, but the Dems realize they'll pick Trump so they refuse to meet, in the hope of seating Pelosi. Then SCOTUS conservatives make a ruling to throw the thing back to House congressional delegations, and they pick Trump.
If you can create enough chaos and disruption, while having your thumb on most of the scales, you may be able to exploit a succession of small biases, without forcing any one party to commit to a big one.
As SeaShanty pointed out, the EC does not meet in one place, but in 51:
"Electoral college delegations meet separately in their respective states and the District of Columbia at places designated by their state legislature. The electors vote by paper ballot, casting one ballot for President and one for Vice President. The electors count the results and then sign six certificates, each of which contains two lists, one of which includes the electoral votes for the President, the other, electoral votes for the Vice President, each of which includes the names of persons receiving votes and the number of votes cast for them. These are known as Certificates of the Vote, which the electors are required to sign. They then pair the six Certificates of Ascertainment provided by the state governors with the Certificates of the Vote, and sign, seal, and certify them (3 U.S.C. §§8-10). The six certificates are then distributed by registered mail as follows: (1) one certificate to the President of the U.S. Senate (the Vice President); (2) two certificates to the secretary of state (or equivalent officer) of the state in which the electors met; (3) two certificates to the Archivist; and (4) one certificate to the judge of the U.S. district court of the district in which the electors met (3 U.S.C. §11)."
"January 6, 2021: Joint Session of Congress to Count Electoral Votes and Declare Election Results Meets On January 6, or another date set by law, the Senate and House of Representatives assemble at 1:00 p.m. in a joint session at the Capitol, in the House chamber, to count the electoral votes and declare the results (3 U.S.C. §15). The Vice President presides as President of the Senate. The Vice President opens the certificates and presents them to four tellers, two from each chamber. The tellers read and make a list of the returns. When the votes have been ascertained and counted, the tellers transmit them to the Vice President. If one of the tickets has received a majority of 270 or more electoral votes, the Vice President announces the results, which “shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President.”
"Joint Session Challenges to Electoral Vote Returns While the tellers announce the results, Members may object to the returns from any individual state as they are announced. Objections to individual state returns must be made in writing by at least one Member each of the Senate and House of Representatives. If an objection meets these requirements, the joint session recesses and the two houses separate and debate the question in their respective chambers for a maximum of two hours. The two houses then vote separately to accept or reject the objection. They then reassemble in joint session, and announce the results of their respective votes. An objection to a state’s electoral vote must be approved by both houses in order for any contested votes to be excluded."
Re: question of "faithless electors" note that recent SCOTUS rulings give teeth to state laws requiring electors to vote for the ticket to which they are pledged when their party presidential & vp slate won the statewide popular vote. For example, in WA state law says that an elector who attempts to vote for candidate(s) other than pledged is automatically removed and replaced by an elector who will vote for the statewide winner.
Re: legislatures doing post-EDay end-runs to replace elected electors, note that this would require solid party line votes to accomplish in various state legislatures, plus plethora of legal hoops & hurdles. Do NOT think this is a good bet - heated rhetoric is one thing, rash over-reaction is quite another.
Is it just me or does that seem like a whole lot of effort to do very little? We already know the result in each state so these people are going to vote to replicate the existing result and then write it down six times for other people to count?
Yes. As per provisions of US Constitution. Somewhat similar to Royal Ascent.
Selection as an elector for your state by your party and candidate is considered (by most who are chosen) to be a high honor.
Can still remember when legendary Pittsburgh Steelers football great Franco Harris served as an Obama-Biden elector in Pennsylvania in 2008.
BTW, author James Mitchener also served as a PA Democratic elector, for Hubert Humphrey in 1968, and wrote about the experience (he had to drive though a snowstorm to get to the state capitol at Harrisburg).
On the other side of the ledger, are the actual votes cast by "faithless electors" in various presidential elections. WA State had one in 1976 (a Ford elector who voted for Ronald Reagan) and three in 2016, Democrats who voted for someone other than Hillary. This last being part of a half-baked scheme to save America from Trumpsky by getting Republican electors to NOT vote for him.
I predict that by this time next week you will need a magnifying glass to identify where Boris' Brexit deal differs from May's Brexit deal but Boris will nonetheless like the shameless salesman he is sell it as the greatest deal in our history with cake for all and with Boris having a majority of 80 unlike May we will all move on bar the diehards
The only stupidity is the incessant whinging. The vaccine taskforce have done a fantastic job.
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
Did you read just the headline or understand the details?
Yes there are limited quantities of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine going to be available. We've ordered 40 million doses but they're only going to produce 40 million worldwide before the end of the year - we're not going to get 100% of that, we should get 25% thanks to the fantastic work of this taskforce.
If it turns out that the Oxford/AZ vaccine is (say) 80% effective and we have millions of doses of that then what should we do? Use the limited stock of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that we have and the Oxford/AZ vaccine? Or use the Pfizer one and throw away the Oxford/AZ vaccine?
That is a pretty stupid headline.
Its downright dangerous. The Guardian should be ashamed of themselves.
Almost as stupid as Bungham’s public pronouncements.
Tony Schwarz who ghost-wrote The Art of the Deal for Trump was interviewed by Evan Davis on R4 earlier this evening. He basically answered your question for you.
There is no plan, just a horror of losing and determination to deny it as long as possible.
Appreciated. Trump and his inner cabal are morons. However, as he IS the president and wants to stay President. And the entire GOP leadership aren't morons. So there will be a plan even if it isn't his.
As others elude to above, the Electoral College has to be the target. Doesn't matter what people think they voted for, they're voting for Electors. Who don't even have to represent their views.
By what possible mechanism do Republicans "target" the Electoral College? Where Trump wins a state, the state GOP provides the slate of electors. Where Biden wins a state, the state Democratic Party provides the slate of electors. Several states (although not all) prevent completely or heavily sanction faithless electors. I'm sorry - people saying there's a trick involving the Electoral College simply don't understand how it works.
There isn't a plan here, from Trump or anyone else. Trump has some doomed cases not involving sufficient numbers of voters to cast into doubt any, let alone several, of the states Biden won. He will try and fail to overturn or annul results, but it's all utterly hopeless. Then the Electoral College will announce Biden as President on 14 December, and he'll be inaugurated on 20 January. Trump will never accept it was fair, protecting his ego at the cost of badly damaging democracy in America. Senate Republicans know what the reality is but most of them can't say it as they don't want Trump to set his army of fanatical, drooling morons on them next time they face a primary election.
For some reason, people (both for and strongly against Trump) seem to believe that people who can't book a room for a press conference at the Four Seasons hotel are currently working on the finer points of a plan so brilliant that it will blow our minds. They really, really aren't.
I didn't say it was a *viable* plan. There can be no viable plan. But in the minds of the morons surrounding the Donald its a *brilliant* plan. Epic even. How they win back the TRUE victory or whatever.
It seems to me that there are a number of people surrounding Trump (and including himself) who really know virtually nothing about how the US institutions actually work. When Trump sees stuff said on Fox News or reads stuff on twitter from people who claim authority i think he actually believes it. So he's picking up a little bit of stuff about how states can overrule the voters in selecting electors, and he believes that SCOTUS are totally corruptible and in his pocket. He may well believe all these made stories about electoral fraud that he's been reading. And in his own mind, and those of the likes of his sons, he's thinking he's got a viable route to staying in power. Totally legally as well!
This is why the GOP silence is so disturbing. He needs to be disabused of these fantasies, and sat down and told the truth about how the US works. And if he refuses to accept it then, they have to get Pence to kick him out.
...or just let the electoral processes flow naturally without illegal interference and he'll be out anyway by 20th January.
From the Guardian, "There is a long-shot legal theory, floated by Republicans before the election, that Republican-friendly legislatures in places such as Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania could ignore the popular vote in their states and appoint their own electors". Just saying?
PA legislature has already said don’t be silly to that idea.
Tony Schwarz who ghost-wrote The Art of the Deal for Trump was interviewed by Evan Davis on R4 earlier this evening. He basically answered your question for you.
There is no plan, just a horror of losing and determination to deny it as long as possible.
Appreciated. Trump and his inner cabal are morons. However, as he IS the president and wants to stay President. And the entire GOP leadership aren't morons. So there will be a plan even if it isn't his.
As others elude to above, the Electoral College has to be the target. Doesn't matter what people think they voted for, they're voting for Electors. Who don't even have to represent their views.
By what possible mechanism do Republicans "target" the Electoral College? Where Trump wins a state, the state GOP provides the slate of electors. Where Biden wins a state, the state Democratic Party provides the slate of electors. Several states (although not all) prevent completely or heavily sanction faithless electors. I'm sorry - people saying there's a trick involving the Electoral College simply don't understand how it works.
There isn't a plan here, from Trump or anyone else. Trump has some doomed cases not involving sufficient numbers of voters to cast into doubt any, let alone several, of the states Biden won. He will try and fail to overturn or annul results, but it's all utterly hopeless. Then the Electoral College will announce Biden as President on 14 December, and he'll be inaugurated on 20 January. Trump will never accept it was fair, protecting his ego at the cost of badly damaging democracy in America. Senate Republicans know what the reality is but most of them can't say it as they don't want Trump to set his army of fanatical, drooling morons on them next time they face a primary election.
For some reason, people (both for and strongly against Trump) seem to believe that people who can't book a room for a press conference at the Four Seasons hotel are currently working on the finer points of a plan so brilliant that it will blow our minds. They really, really aren't.
I didn't say it was a *viable* plan. There can be no viable plan. But in the minds of the morons surrounding the Donald its a *brilliant* plan. Epic even. How they win back the TRUE victory or whatever.
It seems to me that there are a number of people surrounding Trump (and including himself) who really know virtually nothing about how the US institutions actually work. When Trump sees stuff said on Fox News or reads stuff on twitter from people who claim authority i think he actually believes it. So he's picking up a little bit of stuff about how states can overrule the voters in selecting electors, and he believes that SCOTUS are totally corruptible and in his pocket. He may well believe all these made stories about electoral fraud that he's been reading. And in his own mind, and those of the likes of his sons, he's thinking he's got a viable route to staying in power. Totally legally as well!
This is why the GOP silence is so disturbing. He needs to be disabused of these fantasies, and sat down and told the truth about how the US works. And if he refuses to accept it then, they have to get Pence to kick him out.
...or just let the electoral processes flow naturally without illegal interference and he'll be out anyway by 20th January.
From the Guardian, "There is a long-shot legal theory, floated by Republicans before the election, that Republican-friendly legislatures in places such as Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania could ignore the popular vote in their states and appoint their own electors". Just saying?
But they have Dem Governors who would need to sign it off AIUI.
David Frost has been a disaster. His abrasive rhetoric has rubbed Barnier and friends up the wrong way and achieved nothing.
Hello, good evening and goodbye!
His abrasive rhetoric is exactly what the country needed after the weakness of May and is why Barnier has already moved far further since Frost took over than he ever did before then - and likely more compromises still to come.
Getting rid of him would be madness.
But I can see why Remain headbangers like yourself would be disappointed by such a successful Brexit negotiator. Frost doing a good job isn't something you are enjoying, that doesn't mean he's doing a bad job.
I suspect Boris has become emboldened by the Biden win: Trump is a has-been and raving; Brexit is teetering on the edge of calamity and its proponents are shrunken men. Boris knows that hard-Right populism has had its day, so is now leaping on the centrist-liberal bandwagon - hence his enthusiasm for climate policy. Dom and the rest of the Brexit mob are now phantoms from a forsaken past and can easily be dispensed with.
Boris has always been a metropolitan liberal really hasn’t he? Backing Brexit was just a way of differentiating himself from his main rivals for the top job I think. His hard rightness is a straw man set up by other metropolitan liberals, who voted Remain, in order to have something to scream about
Boris has always been whatever the person he is talking to has wanted him to be. Because that's how Boris makes people like him / sleep with him. Metropolitan liberal, traditional tory, radical Atlanticist, patriotic populist, he can do them all.
Then, when it's convenient to him, he will change into something else. Nothing personal in the betrayal, of course (Hi Jennifer!), it's just what he does.
Yes, seems so. Fine by me really. We needed him for Brexit to get over the line, and if he didn’t really mean it, I don’t really care!
I predict that by this time next week you will need a magnifying glass to identify where Boris' Brexit deal differs from May's Brexit deal but Boris will nonetheless like the shameless salesman he is sell it as the greatest deal in our history with cake for all and with Boris having a majority of 80 unlike May we will all move on bar the diehards
I believe you are right. Unfortunately, the diehards are to Boris' right. And uniting the Right was his electoral success.
I predict that by this time next week you will need a magnifying glass to identify where Boris' Brexit deal differs from May's Brexit deal but Boris will nonetheless like the shameless salesman he is sell it as the greatest deal in our history with cake for all and with Boris having a majority of 80 unlike May we will all move on bar the diehards
If I were a betting person, I would put money on Cummings and Frost not going anywhere. Johnson will worry that he wouldn't be able to manage things without them, and Gove will be putting pressure on him to keep Cummings happy.
Comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Williamson
Could it be down to a compromise being needed in the negotiations regarding state support, which always seemed like a very non-Tory thing to be arguing about in the first place? If Dom doesn't get any industrial toys to play with for Christmas...
Distribution is not going to be that big a deal.
If I were associated with getting us to this point, I'd be looking for an excuse to get out, while my metaphorical head was still metaphorically attached to my metaphorical body.
Dom is about to find out nobody is indispensible if they come in the way of Boris' career ambition, including him, if he is the roadblock to a deal with Barnier and Biden then Cummings will discover the Thorpe quote on Macmillan remains equally true for Boris "Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his friends for his life."
We are hearing there's a 94% effective vaccine, developed by Germans and produced by Americans, that will have 40 million doses worldwide by the end of the year and we could have 10 million of those doses. A vaccine not developed or produced by this country and we could have a quarter of all global supplies thanks to this taskforce.
And ingrateful muppets are whinging about them?
Give me a break!
Cyclefree you are normally sensible but you've gone off the deep end here. Yes PR is needed to recruit people to vaccine trials, tackle antivaxxers etc - this isn't grift it is entirely necessary and we can get back to normal sooner hopefully thanks to this taskforce.
The actions of this taskforce could mean potentially that we don't have a third wave, we can stop socially distancing, that pubs like Miss Cyclefree Jr's can re-open back to normal and restrictions lifted. If that happens this taskforce will have done wonders for that.
And we are having incessant whinging about less than a million pounds when billions have been spent?
Seriously talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
Though perhaps it should be.
Re: legislatures doing post-EDay end-runs to replace elected electors, note that this would require solid party line votes to accomplish in various state legislatures, plus plethora of legal hoops & hurdles. Do NOT think this is a good bet - heated rhetoric is one thing, rash over-reaction is quite another.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/11/covid-vaccine-race-leading-rushed-announcements-might-not-bring/
'Philip Ashton, the CEO and co-founder of AI logistics company 7bridges, said: "Moving and storing dry ice shipments is much more complex, and requires more expertise and infrastructure, than the two to eight degrees Celsius cold chain.
"Far fewer sites that may be able to administer a vaccine will currently have storage facilities for dry ice or easy access to supplies of dry ice if they have to store the vaccine for any length of time. There are ways around this, such as just-in-time fulfilment of the vaccine, but this creates different challenges, principally that any disruptions to transport schedules can leave distribution sites without vaccine stock.
"Because of the additional complexity associated with the dry ice dependent vaccines, all other things being equal, a vaccine that can be kept at two to eight degrees Celsius will be much simpler to distribute and store and therefore administer to a population." '
Sounds like something which is possible at a pinch, but you definitely wouldn't bother with if there is an alternative. Which is fine, cos we are covered either way.
Hopefully before the US semiquincentennial?
Like Trump, Martha McSally is refusing to concede. 80,000 votes behind with just 45,000 to declare.
But she’s a deal maker in the sector, and in this case that’s a vastly superior qualification to anything Harding can claim in the testing department.
She’s proved effing useless when she opens her mouth in public, of course. But has sensibly shut up since.
I disagree with those rubbishing Cyclefree’s header. The decision early on to bet large sums of money on vaccines was the government’s (and probably the only unquestionably good decision they’ve made this pandemic). Bingham was as much the beneficiary as the rest of us.
Anyone with strong commercial competence in the sector might well have achieved a similar result, and the fact that she’s been put in charge of a successful vaccines effort doesn’t give give her a free pass to ignore basic ethics.
https://www.google.com/search?q=washington+legislative+building+state+reception+room&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXzdvGy_vsAhWFJzQIHbBlAkIQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1024&bih=473#imgrc=42iQsRo_YrwKWM&imgdii=GfZeo5v5pLp5FM
Yes there are limited quantities of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine going to be available. We've ordered 40 million doses but they're only going to produce 40 million worldwide before the end of the year - we're not going to get 100% of that, we should get 25% thanks to the fantastic work of this taskforce.
If it turns out that the Oxford/AZ vaccine is (say) 80% effective and we have millions of doses of that then what should we do? Use the limited stock of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that we have and the Oxford/AZ vaccine? Or use the Pfizer one and throw away the Oxford/AZ vaccine?
The negotiations need to be wrapped up first.
I have enjoyed all your posts this year shanty.
What do you make from the fact it’s not just hot air from White House? There is genuine pressure out there on GOP leadership because honouring the vote effectively means siding with Biden and dropping Trump in it? If something stupid happens it’s result of that pressure being put on?
Hello, good evening and goodbye!
The idea he is a Trumpian populist has always been nonsense.
Sunak 3.1 / 3.5
Gove 6.4 / 8
Hunt 9 / 10.5
Raab 12.5 / 15.5
Javid 18.5 / 26
Tugendhat 19 / 29
Patel 20 / 36
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234
Nothing wrong with that. Brexit will be finished in a matter of weeks one way or another and when it is there's little to distinguish between Boris and Cameron/Clegg..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmYo0ZRpOgo
Remainer wishful thinking?
If it goes that way, Boris won't last till Christmas, let alone the spring.
Johnson is completely different. Much more switched on.
He's done a fantastic job through these negotiations.
Then, when it's convenient to him, he will change into something else. Nothing personal in the betrayal, of course (Hi Jennifer!), it's just what he does.
If there isn't a deal its because the EU are being unreasonable and we should walk away. If the EU compromise then Frost can wrap this up.
Nah . . . 😜
https://xkcd.com/2383/
Selection as an elector for your state by your party and candidate is considered (by most who are chosen) to be a high honor.
Can still remember when legendary Pittsburgh Steelers football great Franco Harris served as an Obama-Biden elector in Pennsylvania in 2008.
BTW, author James Mitchener also served as a PA Democratic elector, for Hubert Humphrey in 1968, and wrote about the experience (he had to drive though a snowstorm to get to the state capitol at Harrisburg).
On the other side of the ledger, are the actual votes cast by "faithless electors" in various presidential elections. WA State had one in 1976 (a Ford elector who voted for Ronald Reagan) and three in 2016, Democrats who voted for someone other than Hillary. This last being part of a half-baked scheme to save America from Trumpsky by getting Republican electors to NOT vote for him.
Getting rid of him would be madness.
But I can see why Remain headbangers like yourself would be disappointed by such a successful Brexit negotiator. Frost doing a good job isn't something you are enjoying, that doesn't mean he's doing a bad job.
There is no argument about British quotas that were sold. That has never been the argument.
Unfortunately, the diehards are to Boris' right. And uniting the Right was his electoral success.
Overexcited Remainer wishful thinking.