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Keiran Pedley’s Ipsos MORI podcast: The new COVID regulations + Starmer takes to the stage – politic

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Where are the Liberals?

    Fantastic opportunity to start a conversation with some Tory voters who are becoming increasingly disillusioned by their government's authoritarian direction?

    The 'bird of freedom' and all that.

    Yes, the freedom to catch and spread dangerous diseases for no good reason has always been the cornerstone of their political philosophy.

    I even believe Isaiah Berlin was going to include it in his famous essay as the third concept of liberty, until he gave it a millisecond's thought and decided against it.
    Well, it doesn't have to as strong as that. Simply being one of those groups leading for a proper parliamentary debate of covid lockdown laws would at least show that the bird is not a dead parrot.
    A 'proper parliamentary debate' after which you'd like them and as many other MPs as possible to vote all the laws down? Is that the idea?
    Bloody hell, you think parliamentary debates are proper if and only if they conclude with a vote for the government?

    Another card-carrying Tufty Club member who thinks he's a conservative.
    It's blatantly obvious that removing all the restrictions is the goal behind the anodyne demand for 'proper debate', given how it's being pushed by fans of lockdownsceptics.

    Are you still pushing the same nonsense you were a few days ago about false positives being the real explanation for the rising cases and hospitalizations, or have you given up on that?
    You didn't understand that argument then and you don't understand it now, you tagged on to a couple of people who did (and who also understood that all I did was correctly clarify what Bayes' Theorem says). If you think false positives imply rising hospitalizations you understood it even less than I thought you did.

    Moving on to political theory, you seem to genuinely believe that parliament should be prevented from voting on things in case it disagrees with the government. There really is no way back from that.
    Nice try to wriggle out of how completely wrong you (and the illustrious Retired Bloke) were. I most certainly don't think that false positives imply rising hospitalizations - the fact that rising hospitalizations have immediately followed the rise in cases demonstrates how stupid it is to write off the latter as false positives.

    Still, at least you've given up on pushing it, so that's something.
    I have worked out your problem with the "Don't have a debate in parliament, it's just a pretext for a vote" thing, and it is this hilarious: you have half-remembered a similar argument about elitist MPs attempting to overturn therwilloftherpeople with parliamentary votes in the Brexit context, and simply failed to understand that it does not apply now we are back to business as usual and have not established therwilloftherpeople by having a referendum about covid restrictions. But you have elided this into, how dare elitist MPs attempt to overturn therwillofborisjohnson, because the distinction escapes you.

    I think Aristotle said that the job of the intelligence is to see the differences between things. I am sure you can oblige by copypasting the original.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    edited September 2020
    Iunch during a mountain thunderstorm. Soaked.

    First time in thirty years of driving around Italy that I have not seen a single prostitute. If you get what I mean.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Absolutely the right policy to back scrapping, well done Keir.

    Well done on losing the most reliable voting bloc in the country! :lol:

    People said Sir Keir was too expensive a Tory sleeper agent, but I always knew it would pay off in the end...
    What is the point of voting for your precious Tory party if you totally fuck the country?

    What criteria, apart from "I always have done" do you employ before deciding on a Party to support?
    1. Is the party going to tax me more or less than the alternatives?
    2. Is the party in favour of or opposed to cultural wokery?
    3. Does the party have a realistic chance of winning?

    If an alternative to the Conservatives ever arises that is lower-tax, lower-woke, and a serious challenger for power, they will be a strong contender for my vote.

    I don't expect to see one any time soon though.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited September 2020
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    At the moment the most fiscally conservative party leader is Ed Davey and Starmer is more of a fiscal conservative than Corbyn or even Ed Miliband was while Boris is much more of a big spender than Cameron was, that also reflects the fact the Conservative vote under Boris is more working class than it was under Cameron and the Labour vote is more middle class under Starmer than it was under Brown and Ed Miliband
    Thank you for pointing out the obvious and completely missing the point, as always.
    tbf he is mimicking what he hears from politicians when interviewed:

    "If you'll excuse me, that isn't the question you should have asked me; the question you should have asked me is this....and here's the answer..."

    Edit: because don't forget (to his great credit, I believe), @HYUFD has aspirations to become a politician.
  • HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    In that Emerson poll 17 % of respondents are believers in QANON.

    America is fucked.

    12% of British voters voted UKIP in 2015, so probably a similar demographic
    Tin-eared, metropolitan dismissal of valid concerns that drove Brexit, is it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2020
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    At the moment the most fiscally conservative party leader is Ed Davey and Starmer is more of a fiscal conservative than Corbyn or even Ed Miliband was while Boris is much more of a big spender than Cameron was, that also reflects the fact the Conservative vote under Boris is more working class than it was under Cameron and the Labour vote is more middle class under Starmer than it was under Brown and Ed Miliband
    Thank you for pointing out the obvious and completely missing the point, as always.
    It wasn't missing the point, as who a party's voting block is will influence the policies it pursues.

    The Tory vote today is very different from the Tory vote 10 or even 5 years ago, much less pro austerity but much more socially conservative and pro Brexit.

    For example the Tories now hold working class seats from Grimsby to Stoke to West Bromwich to Don Valley to Bishop Auckland to Bolsover and Sedgefield under Boris while the Tories have lost wealthy middle class seats like Richmond Park, Warwick and Leamington, Battersea, Enfield Southgate, Putney, St Albans, Bath, Oxford West and Abingdon since Cameron left
  • TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Absolutely the right policy to back scrapping, well done Keir.

    Well done on losing the most reliable voting bloc in the country! :lol:

    People said Sir Keir was too expensive a Tory sleeper agent, but I always knew it would pay off in the end...
    What is the point of voting for your precious Tory party if you totally fuck the country?

    What criteria, apart from "I always have done" do you employ before deciding on a Party to support?
    I completely agree, though I don't accept the Tories aren't being fiscally responsible considering we are in the middle of the greatest economic crisis of the past 300 years.

    There was a fascinating chart on Sky last night showing the proportion of GDP as fiscal stimulus that each country has done related to COVID since the outbreak began. At the top of the list somewhat surprisingly was Japan at 18% of GDP, Germany was at 12% of GDP, USA about 10% from memory and much lower down was the UK at 6% of GDP.

    Yes it is a lot of money, but in the grand scheme of things there is still a great deal of fiscal responsibility being shown. When even the notoriously hawkish Germans are providing twice the stimulus we have I think its a bit off to say we've simply got the spending taps onto maximum and that's it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Non-story.

    Saying that the seats chosen were either Tory seats or Tory targets is absolutely meaningless when almost without exception virtually every town in England is either a Tory seat or a Tory target.

    Especially when the definition of 'target' was a majority under 10,000 - I challenge you to name a handful of non-Tory town seats in England with a majority over 10,000.

    Almost without exception the non-Tory seats with majorities over 10,000 are in cities not towns. So this is a totally meaningless story. May as well say every town chosen had a Tory candidate on the ballot paper.
    Labour's strongest towns are in the Northwest I think ?

    Blackburn, Preston, Halton (Runcorn/Widnes) ?
    Preston is a city.
    Only in the sense that Sunderland is a city, i.e. not really.
    Countries have different definitions of what makes a city and in this country a city is essentially any place we call a city. So all are proper cities, it may just be some are more underwhelming than others.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Stupid response when the opposition is giving you cover to do the right thing for once.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    nichomar said:

    This is an example of how not to react when things start to look good locally but there is widespread infections elsewhere in the country

    The Costa Blanca asks the Government to identify safe tourist destinations. According to the president of the Alicante Provincial Council and the Costa Blanca Tourist Board, Carlos Mazón, this system would be something like a policy of "traffic lights", which put red in unsafe destinations and green for others, such as the Costa Blanca, who is ready to receive visitors.

    Batshit crazy - this was how our bit of Almeria shot up like crazy in August!
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    Time for them to go then.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Non-story.

    Saying that the seats chosen were either Tory seats or Tory targets is absolutely meaningless when almost without exception virtually every town in England is either a Tory seat or a Tory target.

    Especially when the definition of 'target' was a majority under 10,000 - I challenge you to name a handful of non-Tory town seats in England with a majority over 10,000.

    Almost without exception the non-Tory seats with majorities over 10,000 are in cities not towns. So this is a totally meaningless story. May as well say every town chosen had a Tory candidate on the ballot paper.
    Labour's strongest towns are in the Northwest I think ?

    Blackburn, Preston, Halton (Runcorn/Widnes) ?
    Preston is a city.
    Only in the sense that Sunderland is a city, i.e. not really.
    Countries have different definitions of what makes a city and in this country a city is essentially any place we call a city. So all are proper cities, it may just be some are more underwhelming than others.
    Ripon is a lovely city, but it's not very cityish.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,717

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyhow, Wednesday night was reasonably busy in daughter’s pub. Last night it was dead. Second night this week that it’s been like this. Feels to her like the days leading up to the first lockdown. She fully expects a second one. But if there isn’t and trade does not pick up, she won’t make it to the end of October, never mind Xmas.

    Depressing.

    Still, more time to panic buy for a No Deal Brexit. So there is that ......

    I think everyone I've known who's had a pub either loses every penny they've got or gets divorced or, more usually, both. It seems like an awfully precarious business where you end up being a feudal serf of the brewery or pubco and making yourself 2p every time you pull a pint for a drunken arsehole.
    One of the reasons that pubs are in decline is because of large pub companies. Every margin is cut to the bone, every penny that can be squeezed out of a landlord is being wrung from them. A few years back, I wrote more than one IT system that was designed to do the squeezing :D

    It really is a knife-edge business and on teh drinks side it can even be a loss-leader why is why so many pubs switched to gastro. Food was where the profit margins lay.
    Food was the only reason we stayed afloat so long.
    I grew up in a pub (from age 7 to age 22). When we moved in, the village had four pubs. When we moved out, we were the last one standing.

    Brewery-owned pubs (back then, anyway) used to be run as rackets for the brewery. They would inexorably raise your rent every year (ours went up more than tenfold over those years) and ensure your tied lager had a minimal profit margin (for you) until you went broke. Then you were out and the next lot came in.

    There was never any shortage of people wanting to run a pub. It's one of those things that many people seemed to want to do. They'd turn up full of enthusiasm and optimism, and pour in their life savings over however-long they were there. And they would. Until they ran out of savings, couldn't go any further, and left, jaded and broke.

    And the cycle would repeat. The brewery soaking family after family of their life savings, with people queueing up to oblige. We managed to stave it off for so many years by getting into providing food ahead of the crowd and building up a wide reputation for good food. And by Mum (who did the food) getting up at 6 every morning and going to bed at midnight (when the local doctor found out she'd omitted actually taking even one day off over a period of over a decade, he insisted she take a break, which she thinks saved her health).

    It was only the independents that really stood a chance of surviving long-term and being profitable. I don't know if that's changed since I was there.
    The Managed Pubs had a better survivability rate because the landlord was effectively an employee. The franchised pubs were the money earners for the pub company because they had no costs and a tied supply deal.

    Also, the pub companies are not immune. I did some work for a smaller one that was run by Ebeneezer Scrooge and Jacob Marley :) They eventually squeezed so hard that some of the franchisees went bust and that then caused problems for Scrooge & Marley who then went bust themselves. We kept them on a short leash, but they still owed us about £1K when they went down.
    We have a three pubs locally, one owned and managed by the brewery ....... local opinions vary...... one owned by a big pubco, which apparently has a lot of independence, and is held to be very good, and one by a smaller pubco where the licensee changes quite frequently, and where the last two complained to the regulars frequently about the policies of the owners.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    At the moment the most fiscally conservative party leader is Ed Davey and Starmer is more of a fiscal conservative than Corbyn or even Ed Miliband was while Boris is much more of a big spender than Cameron was, that also reflects the fact the Conservative vote under Boris is more working class than it was under Cameron and the Labour vote is more middle class under Starmer than it was under Brown and Ed Miliband
    Thank you for pointing out the obvious and completely missing the point, as always.
    tbf he is mimicking what he hears from politicians when interviewed:

    "If you'll excuse me, that isn't the question you should have asked me; the question you should have asked me is this....and here's the answer..."

    Edit: because don't forget (to his great credit, I believe), @HYUFD has aspirations to become a politician.
    Are you sure? The internet never forgets, after all.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Absolutely the right policy to back scrapping, well done Keir.

    Well done on losing the most reliable voting bloc in the country! :lol:

    People said Sir Keir was too expensive a Tory sleeper agent, but I always knew it would pay off in the end...
    What is the point of voting for your precious Tory party if you totally fuck the country?

    What criteria, apart from "I always have done" do you employ before deciding on a Party to support?
    I completely agree, though I don't accept the Tories aren't being fiscally responsible considering we are in the middle of the greatest economic crisis of the past 300 years.

    There was a fascinating chart on Sky last night showing the proportion of GDP as fiscal stimulus that each country has done related to COVID since the outbreak began. At the top of the list somewhat surprisingly was Japan at 18% of GDP, Germany was at 12% of GDP, USA about 10% from memory and much lower down was the UK at 6% of GDP.

    Yes it is a lot of money, but in the grand scheme of things there is still a great deal of fiscal responsibility being shown. When even the notoriously hawkish Germans are providing twice the stimulus we have I think its a bit off to say we've simply got the spending taps onto maximum and that's it.
    Those sky numbers are wrong, we've done around 12% of GDP in stimulus compared to the pre-COVID economy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Stupid response when the opposition is giving you cover to do the right thing for once.
    Labour is not the only alternative choice to the Tories for pensioners, they could also go back to Farage
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    The Sturgeon figures, for a UK wide poll, are simply mind boggling to me.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Non-story.

    Saying that the seats chosen were either Tory seats or Tory targets is absolutely meaningless when almost without exception virtually every town in England is either a Tory seat or a Tory target.

    Especially when the definition of 'target' was a majority under 10,000 - I challenge you to name a handful of non-Tory town seats in England with a majority over 10,000.

    Almost without exception the non-Tory seats with majorities over 10,000 are in cities not towns. So this is a totally meaningless story. May as well say every town chosen had a Tory candidate on the ballot paper.
    Labour's strongest towns are in the Northwest I think ?

    Blackburn, Preston, Halton (Runcorn/Widnes) ?
    Preston is a city.
    Only in the sense that Sunderland is a city, i.e. not really.
    Countries have different definitions of what makes a city and in this country a city is essentially any place we call a city. So all are proper cities, it may just be some are more underwhelming than others.
    Don’t be silly.
  • Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    The Drakeford figure is amusing.

    The other day when Boris, then Sturgeon, then Drakeford made their televised 8pm speeches when Drakeford started speaking she asked who that was. After I explained that it was the First Minister of Wales she said she'd never heard of him, didn't know Wales had its own First Minister and thought Boris was in charge in Wales too. She's not ignorant, watches the news, but is not especially interested in politics beyond any normal person (hence why I talk here about it not to her) but while she was familiar with Sturgeon and knew Scotland was led by Sturgeon she'd never even heard of Drakeford before. To be fair even I rarely see Drakeford on the news either.

    I suspect that may be true of a lot of English voters who aren't politics nerds.
  • nichomar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    Time for them to go then.
    Will of the people, isn't it?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    eristdoof said:

    RobD said:

    Who'd have thunk it. People want to hear about solutions rather than how crap everything is all the time.
    Because people say they want it, does not mean it is the best strategy to winning GE 2014.
    Many of the people who responded that they want Labour to release details will be tories, waiting for something to attack.
    The tables suggest the split is similar regardless of party.

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/media-research/
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    edited September 2020
    nichomar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    Time for them to go then.
    I presume the plan is to burn through all the incompetent a**holes and lickspittles that have schmoozed their way up the greasy pole for years and hope that, when they are gone, somebody competent might be left to take over?

    It could be a long term plan. Very long term...... :(
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,065
    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    At the moment the most fiscally conservative party leader is Ed Davey and Starmer is more of a fiscal conservative than Corbyn or even Ed Miliband was while Boris is much more of a big spender than Cameron was, that also reflects the fact the Conservative vote under Boris is more working class than it was under Cameron and the Labour vote is more middle class under Starmer than it was under Brown and Ed Miliband
    Thank you for pointing out the obvious and completely missing the point, as always.
    tbf he is mimicking what he hears from politicians when interviewed:

    "If you'll excuse me, that isn't the question you should have asked me; the question you should have asked me is this....and here's the answer..."

    Edit: because don't forget (to his great credit, I believe), @HYUFD has aspirations to become a politician.
    Are you sure? The internet never forgets, after all.
    He will be rewarded for his slavish loyalty, flexibility and ability .... to toe the party line.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited September 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Where are the Liberals?

    Fantastic opportunity to start a conversation with some Tory voters who are becoming increasingly disillusioned by their government's authoritarian direction?

    The 'bird of freedom' and all that.

    Yes, the freedom to catch and spread dangerous diseases for no good reason has always been the cornerstone of their political philosophy.

    I even believe Isaiah Berlin was going to include it in his famous essay as the third concept of liberty, until he gave it a millisecond's thought and decided against it.
    Well, it doesn't have to as strong as that. Simply being one of those groups leading for a proper parliamentary debate of covid lockdown laws would at least show that the bird is not a dead parrot.
    A 'proper parliamentary debate' after which you'd like them and as many other MPs as possible to vote all the laws down? Is that the idea?
    Bloody hell, you think parliamentary debates are proper if and only if they conclude with a vote for the government?

    Another card-carrying Tufty Club member who thinks he's a conservative.
    It's blatantly obvious that removing all the restrictions is the goal behind the anodyne demand for 'proper debate', given how it's being pushed by fans of lockdownsceptics.

    Are you still pushing the same nonsense you were a few days ago about false positives being the real explanation for the rising cases and hospitalizations, or have you given up on that?
    You didn't understand that argument then and you don't understand it now, you tagged on to a couple of people who did (and who also understood that all I did was correctly clarify what Bayes' Theorem says). If you think false positives imply rising hospitalizations you understood it even less than I thought you did.

    Moving on to political theory, you seem to genuinely believe that parliament should be prevented from voting on things in case it disagrees with the government. There really is no way back from that.
    Nice try to wriggle out of how completely wrong you (and the illustrious Retired Bloke) were. I most certainly don't think that false positives imply rising hospitalizations - the fact that rising hospitalizations have immediately followed the rise in cases demonstrates how stupid it is to write off the latter as false positives.

    Still, at least you've given up on pushing it, so that's something.
    I have worked out your problem with the "Don't have a debate in parliament, it's just a pretext for a vote" thing, and it is this hilarious: you have half-remembered a similar argument about elitist MPs attempting to overturn therwilloftherpeople with parliamentary votes in the Brexit context, and simply failed to understand that it does not apply now we are back to business as usual and have not established therwilloftherpeople by having a referendum about covid restrictions. But you have elided this into, how dare elitist MPs attempt to overturn therwillofborisjohnson, because the distinction escapes you.

    I think Aristotle said that the job of the intelligence is to see the differences between things. I am sure you can oblige by copypasting the original.
    My goodness, just accept that you were 100% wrong in falling for the wishful thinking that the rising case numbers were mere statistical artefacts. It's embarrassing, but there's no need to torture your brain with comical attempts at mind reading to try to obscure it.

    The 'debate' in Parliament is being pushed by numpties subject to the same wishful thinking that we can just jettison all the public health measures and the problem will go away on its own. The funny thing is that most of those libertarian MPs are the Brexiteers whose irrationality you would decry in any other circumstance, but since it now chimes with what you want, you're suddenly on board with them all the way.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,717
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Stupid response when the opposition is giving you cover to do the right thing for once.
    Labour is not the only alternative choice to the Tories for pensioners, they could also go back to Farage
    As an OAP of (almost) 20 years standing I cannot ever envisage voting for a party led by that revolting individual.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    edited September 2020
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Stupid response when the opposition is giving you cover to do the right thing for once.
    Labour is not the only alternative choice to the Tories for pensioners, they could also go back to Farage
    You are fixated by a man who is effectively retired and a party(ies) that is effectively defunct
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,065

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Absolutely the right policy to back scrapping, well done Keir.

    Well done on losing the most reliable voting bloc in the country! :lol:

    People said Sir Keir was too expensive a Tory sleeper agent, but I always knew it would pay off in the end...
    What is the point of voting for your precious Tory party if you totally fuck the country?

    What criteria, apart from "I always have done" do you employ before deciding on a Party to support?
    1. Is the party going to tax me more or less than the alternatives?
    2. Is the party in favour of or opposed to cultural wokery?
    3. Does the party have a realistic chance of winning?

    If an alternative to the Conservatives ever arises that is lower-tax, lower-woke, and a serious challenger for power, they will be a strong contender for my vote.

    I don't expect to see one any time soon though.
    We will count you in for Super Starmer then!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Absolutely the right policy to back scrapping, well done Keir.

    Well done on losing the most reliable voting bloc in the country! :lol:

    People said Sir Keir was too expensive a Tory sleeper agent, but I always knew it would pay off in the end...
    What is the point of voting for your precious Tory party if you totally fuck the country?

    What criteria, apart from "I always have done" do you employ before deciding on a Party to support?
    1. Is the party going to tax me more or less than the alternatives?
    2. Is the party in favour of or opposed to cultural wokery?
    3. Does the party have a realistic chance of winning?

    If an alternative to the Conservatives ever arises that is lower-tax, lower-woke, and a serious challenger for power, they will be a strong contender for my vote.

    I don't expect to see one any time soon though.
    We will count you in for Super Starmer then!
    I don't think he meets many of the requirements outlined.
  • Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    I find it ironic that the Tories have become Corbyn and McDonnell's Labour - after warning us of the dangers of Corbyn & McDonnell's Labour :D:D
  • MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Absolutely the right policy to back scrapping, well done Keir.

    Well done on losing the most reliable voting bloc in the country! :lol:

    People said Sir Keir was too expensive a Tory sleeper agent, but I always knew it would pay off in the end...
    What is the point of voting for your precious Tory party if you totally fuck the country?

    What criteria, apart from "I always have done" do you employ before deciding on a Party to support?
    I completely agree, though I don't accept the Tories aren't being fiscally responsible considering we are in the middle of the greatest economic crisis of the past 300 years.

    There was a fascinating chart on Sky last night showing the proportion of GDP as fiscal stimulus that each country has done related to COVID since the outbreak began. At the top of the list somewhat surprisingly was Japan at 18% of GDP, Germany was at 12% of GDP, USA about 10% from memory and much lower down was the UK at 6% of GDP.

    Yes it is a lot of money, but in the grand scheme of things there is still a great deal of fiscal responsibility being shown. When even the notoriously hawkish Germans are providing twice the stimulus we have I think its a bit off to say we've simply got the spending taps onto maximum and that's it.
    Those sky numbers are wrong, we've done around 12% of GDP in stimulus compared to the pre-COVID economy.
    So they were out by a factor of 100% on the stimulus? That's quite shoddy reporting.

    Though I don't see how that can be true. The UK's deficit to date for the past six months is about 12% of pre-COVID GDP but since we weren't running a balanced budget I don't see how that can all be stimulus.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    The Drakeford figure is amusing.

    The other day when Boris, then Sturgeon, then Drakeford made their televised 8pm speeches when Drakeford started speaking she asked who that was. After I explained that it was the First Minister of Wales she said she'd never heard of him, didn't know Wales had its own First Minister and thought Boris was in charge in Wales too. She's not ignorant, watches the news, but is not especially interested in politics beyond any normal person (hence why I talk here about it not to her) but while she was familiar with Sturgeon and knew Scotland was led by Sturgeon she'd never even heard of Drakeford before. To be fair even I rarely see Drakeford on the news either.

    I suspect that may be true of a lot of English voters who aren't politics nerds.
    This site is saving you from divorce is my conclusion from that ;)
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Where are the Liberals?

    Fantastic opportunity to start a conversation with some Tory voters who are becoming increasingly disillusioned by their government's authoritarian direction?

    The 'bird of freedom' and all that.

    Yes, the freedom to catch and spread dangerous diseases for no good reason has always been the cornerstone of their political philosophy.

    I even believe Isaiah Berlin was going to include it in his famous essay as the third concept of liberty, until he gave it a millisecond's thought and decided against it.
    Well, it doesn't have to as strong as that. Simply being one of those groups leading for a proper parliamentary debate of covid lockdown laws would at least show that the bird is not a dead parrot.
    A 'proper parliamentary debate' after which you'd like them and as many other MPs as possible to vote all the laws down? Is that the idea?
    Bloody hell, you think parliamentary debates are proper if and only if they conclude with a vote for the government?

    Another card-carrying Tufty Club member who thinks he's a conservative.
    It's blatantly obvious that removing all the restrictions is the goal behind the anodyne demand for 'proper debate', given how it's being pushed by fans of lockdownsceptics.

    Are you still pushing the same nonsense you were a few days ago about false positives being the real explanation for the rising cases and hospitalizations, or have you given up on that?
    You didn't understand that argument then and you don't understand it now, you tagged on to a couple of people who did (and who also understood that all I did was correctly clarify what Bayes' Theorem says). If you think false positives imply rising hospitalizations you understood it even less than I thought you did.

    Moving on to political theory, you seem to genuinely believe that parliament should be prevented from voting on things in case it disagrees with the government. There really is no way back from that.
    Nice try to wriggle out of how completely wrong you (and the illustrious Retired Bloke) were. I most certainly don't think that false positives imply rising hospitalizations - the fact that rising hospitalizations have immediately followed the rise in cases demonstrates how stupid it is to write off the latter as false positives.

    Still, at least you've given up on pushing it, so that's something.
    I have worked out your problem with the "Don't have a debate in parliament, it's just a pretext for a vote" thing, and it is this hilarious: you have half-remembered a similar argument about elitist MPs attempting to overturn therwilloftherpeople with parliamentary votes in the Brexit context, and simply failed to understand that it does not apply now we are back to business as usual and have not established therwilloftherpeople by having a referendum about covid restrictions. But you have elided this into, how dare elitist MPs attempt to overturn therwillofborisjohnson, because the distinction escapes you.

    I think Aristotle said that the job of the intelligence is to see the differences between things. I am sure you can oblige by copypasting the original.
    ... in greek
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Non-story.

    Saying that the seats chosen were either Tory seats or Tory targets is absolutely meaningless when almost without exception virtually every town in England is either a Tory seat or a Tory target.

    Especially when the definition of 'target' was a majority under 10,000 - I challenge you to name a handful of non-Tory town seats in England with a majority over 10,000.

    Almost without exception the non-Tory seats with majorities over 10,000 are in cities not towns. So this is a totally meaningless story. May as well say every town chosen had a Tory candidate on the ballot paper.
    Labour's strongest towns are in the Northwest I think ?

    Blackburn, Preston, Halton (Runcorn/Widnes) ?
    Preston is a city.
    Only in the sense that Sunderland is a city, i.e. not really.
    Countries have different definitions of what makes a city and in this country a city is essentially any place we call a city. So all are proper cities, it may just be some are more underwhelming than others.
    Don’t be silly.
    What's silly about it? Its true, as shown by how we legally make new cities by just declaring them to be so rather than any sort of assessment of size or amenity.

    Perhaps our process is silly but so are many things.

    Also don't dob in large towns who have 'city centre' signs, as I know Reading used to.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,065
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Stupid response when the opposition is giving you cover to do the right thing for once.
    Labour is not the only alternative choice to the Tories for pensioners, they could also go back to Farage
    Oh please do! It would mean an opposition landslide.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2020
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    That was because of membership of the ERM and crashing out after Black Wednesday and a charismatic centrist alternative in Blair after 18 years of Tory rule and Tory votes also lost to the Referendum Party.

    Major left a balanced budget in 1997 and sound finances but fat lot of good it did him on polling day
  • Mango said:

    Could come in handy for stockpiling. There's a national shortage...
    Ooo... paper for lighting the fire. I will give them £3 for the whole pile.....
  • Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    Time for those naughty Conservatives to ramp up the nicknaming obviously.

    'some mischievous Conservatives have even taken to nicknaming the chief medical officer, Professor Chris Whitty, and the chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, "Witless and Unbalanced"'
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,065
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    That was because of membership of the ERM and crashing out after Black Wednesday and a charismatic centrist alternative in Blair and Tory votes also lost to the Referendum Party.

    Major left a balanced budget in 1997 and sound finances but fat lot of good it did him on polling day
    Yes, that is what I said!
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    edited September 2020
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    The Sturgeon figures, for a UK wide poll, are simply mind boggling to me.
    So are the Drakeford ones. 26% have heard of him... Who is he?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited September 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    Was this before the Lock Up The Lepers policy in Scotland? Although, again like the Nike affair, it will get far less coverage than when the same disaster happens in English universities.
  • nichomar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    Time for them to go then.
    I presume the plan is to burn through all the incompetent a**holes and lickspittles that have schmoozed their way up the greasy pole for years and hope that, when they are gone, somebody competent might be left to take over?

    It could be a long term plan. Very long term...... :(
    Especially when you look at those who were pushed out, or jumped, in 2019.

    Johnson may not be able to run a country, but boy he can climb a greasy pole and stop rivals doing so.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,764

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1309414136485482502

    Mental health crisis incoming. Some young people really struggle with leaving home for first time. It is a major life change and at a vulnerable age.

    Bonkers.

    The one's in Dundee are putting posters up in their windows: "Bring weed!", "Bring drink" and, more concerningly, "help".
  • Starmer is playing an absolute blinder.

    The Tories assumed Labour would stick on the hard left and the Tories could clean up from the centre left, centre and the right.

    They did not bank on Keir playing a master-stroke and re-creating New Labour
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,013
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Republican Senator Proposes Bill That Would Make It Illegal to Count Votes
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/republican-senator-bill-illegal-mail-vote-count-deadline.html

    Not only would the bill prevent counting of postal votes arriving later, but also bans counting votes that arrive earlier.

    It is called the Help America Vote Act!

    (Surely it wouldn't pass the House of Representatives though?)
    No, of course not.
    But it seems a fairly clear indication of the way the party is thinking. Trump is far from the only Republican wanting to put a very large thumb on the scale.

    If anyone is seriously interested in electoral reform, it needs to start with serious plans and funding, early in any administration. And it will have to be carried through at the state level.

    And, of course, must be bipartisan.
    Nothing can be done in the USA without campaign finance reform. They basically have legalised bribery. And no, corporations are not people.

    I'm not holding my breath...
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Stupid response when the opposition is giving you cover to do the right thing for once.
    Labour is not the only alternative choice to the Tories for pensioners, they could also go back to Farage
    You are fixated by a man who is effectively retired and a party(ies) that is effectively defunct
    I very much doubt it. He will have the anti lockdown vote at the next set of elections, and that could be a lot bigger than it is showing in polls now.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730

    Starmer is playing an absolute blinder.

    The Tories assumed Labour would stick on the hard left and the Tories could clean up from the centre left, centre and the right.

    They did not bank on Keir playing a master-stroke and re-creating New Labour

    But still not as good as Ed Miliband was doing at this stage
  • This is the problem Cummings has - if you watch the video in full you'll see why it's obvious:

    https://youtu.be/YPDmNaEG8v4
  • isam said:

    Starmer is playing an absolute blinder.

    The Tories assumed Labour would stick on the hard left and the Tories could clean up from the centre left, centre and the right.

    They did not bank on Keir playing a master-stroke and re-creating New Labour

    But still not as good as Ed Miliband was doing at this stage
    The 2010-2015 polls were proved to be wrong, so I am not sure we can compare directly.

    Keir's approval ratings far exceed Ed's which was always the marker of what was actually going on.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    New New Labour.

    This is why I voted for Keir.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    Was this before the Lock Up The Lepers policy in Scotland? Although, again like the Nike affair, it will get far less coverage than when the same disaster happens in English universities.
    If someone is already liked and trusted they could cock up in the same way as someone else and take no hit or far less of a hit. Its why even when doing the same things with basically the same results one will be trusted on that issue more. Its when background and past performance really come into play.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Non-story.

    Saying that the seats chosen were either Tory seats or Tory targets is absolutely meaningless when almost without exception virtually every town in England is either a Tory seat or a Tory target.

    Especially when the definition of 'target' was a majority under 10,000 - I challenge you to name a handful of non-Tory town seats in England with a majority over 10,000.

    Almost without exception the non-Tory seats with majorities over 10,000 are in cities not towns. So this is a totally meaningless story. May as well say every town chosen had a Tory candidate on the ballot paper.
    Labour's strongest towns are in the Northwest I think ?

    Blackburn, Preston, Halton (Runcorn/Widnes) ?
    Preston is a city.
    Only in the sense that Sunderland is a city, i.e. not really.
    Countries have different definitions of what makes a city and in this country a city is essentially any place we call a city. So all are proper cities, it may just be some are more underwhelming than others.
    Don’t be silly.
    What's silly about it? Its true, as shown by how we legally make new cities by just declaring them to be so rather than any sort of assessment of size or amenity.

    Perhaps our process is silly but so are many things.

    Also don't dob in large towns who have 'city centre' signs, as I know Reading used to.
    Also by international standards there's absolutely no reason Sunderland (quarter of a million population) or Preston (140k population) shouldn't be cities.

    There are many cities all over the world with a smaller population than those.

    The USA has 317 cities according to Wikipedia and Sunderland would be in the Top 100 of those by population with a comparable population to cities like Reno, Nevada or Buffalo, New York.

    Preston would be in the Top 200 coming in with a very similar population to Pasadena, California.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Non-story.

    Saying that the seats chosen were either Tory seats or Tory targets is absolutely meaningless when almost without exception virtually every town in England is either a Tory seat or a Tory target.

    Especially when the definition of 'target' was a majority under 10,000 - I challenge you to name a handful of non-Tory town seats in England with a majority over 10,000.

    Almost without exception the non-Tory seats with majorities over 10,000 are in cities not towns. So this is a totally meaningless story. May as well say every town chosen had a Tory candidate on the ballot paper.
    Labour's strongest towns are in the Northwest I think ?

    Blackburn, Preston, Halton (Runcorn/Widnes) ?
    Preston is a city.
    Only in the sense that Sunderland is a city, i.e. not really.
    Countries have different definitions of what makes a city and in this country a city is essentially any place we call a city. So all are proper cities, it may just be some are more underwhelming than others.
    Don’t be silly.
    What's silly about it? Its true, as shown by how we legally make new cities by just declaring them to be so rather than any sort of assessment of size or amenity.

    Perhaps our process is silly but so are many things.

    Also don't dob in large towns who have 'city centre' signs, as I know Reading used to.
    I hope you don't think I'm being serious about any of this!

    It just all comes down to Sunderland being a small town in County Durham, rather than a "city".
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    New New Labour.

    This is why I voted for Keir.
    On the topic of extraordinary turnarounds, from Corbynista to New Labour in a few months? :D
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Starmer is playing an absolute blinder.

    The Tories assumed Labour would stick on the hard left and the Tories could clean up from the centre left, centre and the right.

    They did not bank on Keir playing a master-stroke and re-creating New Labour

    What, with Corbyn, RBL and crew still in the party together with ultra left CLPs awaiting their opportunity to return.
  • nichomar said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyhow, Wednesday night was reasonably busy in daughter’s pub. Last night it was dead. Second night this week that it’s been like this. Feels to her like the days leading up to the first lockdown. She fully expects a second one. But if there isn’t and trade does not pick up, she won’t make it to the end of October, never mind Xmas.

    Depressing.

    Still, more time to panic buy for a No Deal Brexit. So there is that ......

    I think everyone I've known who's had a pub either loses every penny they've got or gets divorced or, more usually, both. It seems like an awfully precarious business where you end up being a feudal serf of the brewery or pubco and making yourself 2p every time you pull a pint for a drunken arsehole.
    One of the reasons that pubs are in decline is because of large pub companies. Every margin is cut to the bone, every penny that can be squeezed out of a landlord is being wrung from them. A few years back, I wrote more than one IT system that was designed to do the squeezing :D

    It really is a knife-edge business and on teh drinks side it can even be a loss-leader why is why so many pubs switched to gastro. Food was where the profit margins lay.
    Also a weatherspoons kills Many of the other pubs off In an area when they open but then there’s no accounting for taste.
    People like "cheap". I remember Malcolm Walker (CEO of Iceland at the time) telling me that if you made the price £1 it would "fly off the shelves" no matter what it was.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Stupid response when the opposition is giving you cover to do the right thing for once.
    Labour is not the only alternative choice to the Tories for pensioners, they could also go back to Farage
    You are fixated by a man who is effectively retired and a party(ies) that is effectively defunct
    I very much doubt it. He will have the anti lockdown vote at the next set of elections, and that could be a lot bigger than it is showing in polls now.
    Where's his ground operation ?

    My MP, Brendan Clarke-Smith is as big a leaver as you'll find and is pushing for more openings (Though 100% loyal on the whip I think). A Farage candidate wouldn't get a hearing here in Bassetlaw - and if they won't get a hearing in red/blue wall switching 70+% leave Bassetlaw, well just where is the opening ?
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,013
    DavidL said:
    Agreed. But after decades of sliding.

    We are undergoing the same process (sometime by slightly different means), but you Tories haven't really noticed.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    nichomar said:

    Starmer is playing an absolute blinder.

    The Tories assumed Labour would stick on the hard left and the Tories could clean up from the centre left, centre and the right.

    They did not bank on Keir playing a master-stroke and re-creating New Labour

    What, with Corbyn, RBL and crew still in the party together with ultra left CLPs awaiting their opportunity to return.
    They've been greatly diminished. I find it hard to imagine them getting back into the leadership anytime soon.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2020
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    Working age middle class people maybe, Starmer Labour now leads with ABC1s 43% to 37% for the Tories, the Tories however still lead with working class C2DE voters under Boris by 45% to just 34% for Labour

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/0jur4htqeh/YouGov Times VI 17 Sep 2020.pdf
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    How do you know if you're talking to someone from Huddersfield? They'll tell you within 5 minutes that it's the "biggest town in England".
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Where are the Liberals?

    Fantastic opportunity to start a conversation with some Tory voters who are becoming increasingly disillusioned by their government's authoritarian direction?

    The 'bird of freedom' and all that.

    Yes, the freedom to catch and spread dangerous diseases for no good reason has always been the cornerstone of their political philosophy.

    I even believe Isaiah Berlin was going to include it in his famous essay as the third concept of liberty, until he gave it a millisecond's thought and decided against it.
    Well, it doesn't have to as strong as that. Simply being one of those groups leading for a proper parliamentary debate of covid lockdown laws would at least show that the bird is not a dead parrot.
    A 'proper parliamentary debate' after which you'd like them and as many other MPs as possible to vote all the laws down? Is that the idea?
    Bloody hell, you think parliamentary debates are proper if and only if they conclude with a vote for the government?

    Another card-carrying Tufty Club member who thinks he's a conservative.
    It's blatantly obvious that removing all the restrictions is the goal behind the anodyne demand for 'proper debate', given how it's being pushed by fans of lockdownsceptics.

    Are you still pushing the same nonsense you were a few days ago about false positives being the real explanation for the rising cases and hospitalizations, or have you given up on that?
    You didn't understand that argument then and you don't understand it now, you tagged on to a couple of people who did (and who also understood that all I did was correctly clarify what Bayes' Theorem says). If you think false positives imply rising hospitalizations you understood it even less than I thought you did.

    Moving on to political theory, you seem to genuinely believe that parliament should be prevented from voting on things in case it disagrees with the government. There really is no way back from that.
    Nice try to wriggle out of how completely wrong you (and the illustrious Retired Bloke) were. I most certainly don't think that false positives imply rising hospitalizations - the fact that rising hospitalizations have immediately followed the rise in cases demonstrates how stupid it is to write off the latter as false positives.

    Still, at least you've given up on pushing it, so that's something.
    I have worked out your problem with the "Don't have a debate in parliament, it's just a pretext for a vote" thing, and it is this hilarious: you have half-remembered a similar argument about elitist MPs attempting to overturn therwilloftherpeople with parliamentary votes in the Brexit context, and simply failed to understand that it does not apply now we are back to business as usual and have not established therwilloftherpeople by having a referendum about covid restrictions. But you have elided this into, how dare elitist MPs attempt to overturn therwillofborisjohnson, because the distinction escapes you.

    I think Aristotle said that the job of the intelligence is to see the differences between things. I am sure you can oblige by copypasting the original.
    My goodness, just accept that you were 100% wrong in falling for the wishful thinking that the rising case numbers were mere statistical artefacts. It's embarrassing, but there's no need to torture your brain with comical attempts at mind reading to try to obscure it.

    The 'debate' in Parliament is being pushed by numpties subject to the same wishful thinking that we can just jettison all the public health measures and the problem will go away on its own. The funny thing is that most of those libertarian MPs are the Brexiteers whose irrationality you would decry in any other circumstance, but since it now chimes with what you want, you're suddenly on board with them all the way.
    No, that doesn't work, because this is all on the record. Go back and to link to the posts you are talking about. You are, as a matter of fact, completely wrong about my views. I think this is now a question of strict regulations vs mass graves, and I am against mass graves.

    What you are saying is exactly equivalent to saying Don't have an election in 2024, it will just let a lot of numpties in who want to ruin the country. This is a point where process is about 1m times more important than substance. It is entirely characteristic of Tufty Club thinking not to be able to recognise that.
  • RobD said:

    nichomar said:

    Starmer is playing an absolute blinder.

    The Tories assumed Labour would stick on the hard left and the Tories could clean up from the centre left, centre and the right.

    They did not bank on Keir playing a master-stroke and re-creating New Labour

    What, with Corbyn, RBL and crew still in the party together with ultra left CLPs awaiting their opportunity to return.
    They've been greatly diminished. I find it hard to imagine them getting back into the leadership anytime soon.
    I believe something like 80%+ of members approve of Keir. The hard left membership was always a fringe.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    New New Labour.

    This is why I voted for Keir.
    On the topic of extraordinary turnarounds, from Corbynista to New Labour in a few months? :D
    Apparently valuing power over principles is morally wrong. That's what everyone keeps saying, anyway...
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    Now is the right time to ditch the Triple Lock and there is cover to do it.

    By the time of the next election pensioners will have adjusted and be concerned about other policies Labour advocate where their values are very different.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    You can support measures to restrict the liberty, mobility and business activity of Britons.

    You can support fiscal sanity.

    You can;t do both. You can't turn left and right at the same time,

    Some SNP MP tried to pretend this isn;t a binary choice.

    It bloody is.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    The one thing Farage could do I think is let Starmer in :D - might be for the best if Boris is still leading the Tories though !
    Reckon Sunak wins Farage or no Farage.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    New New Labour.

    This is why I voted for Keir.
    On the topic of extraordinary turnarounds, from Corbynista to New Labour in a few months? :D
    Apparently valuing power over principles is morally wrong. That's what everyone keeps saying, anyway...
    99% sure "power over principles" is the Tory motto, or whatever that is in Latin.
  • RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    New New Labour.

    This is why I voted for Keir.
    On the topic of extraordinary turnarounds, from Corbynista to New Labour in a few months? :D
    No I prefer to the left of New Labour as a social democrat myself. But I knew Keir would move Labour back to the centre, accepting my politics can't win elections.
  • How do you know if you're talking to someone from Huddersfield? They'll tell you within 5 minutes that it's the "biggest town in England".

    I don't know if its actually true or not but I once heard that an unusual claim to fame for Warrington is that we're the biggest town in Europe without a professional football club. Of course very much a Rugby League town so everyone is mad about the Wolves instead, plus sandwiched on the M62 right inbetween Liverpool and Manchester so not exactly a shortage of nearby football clubs for people to support but still . . .
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyhow, Wednesday night was reasonably busy in daughter’s pub. Last night it was dead. Second night this week that it’s been like this. Feels to her like the days leading up to the first lockdown. She fully expects a second one. But if there isn’t and trade does not pick up, she won’t make it to the end of October, never mind Xmas.

    Depressing.

    Still, more time to panic buy for a No Deal Brexit. So there is that ......

    I think everyone I've known who's had a pub either loses every penny they've got or gets divorced or, more usually, both. It seems like an awfully precarious business where you end up being a feudal serf of the brewery or pubco and making yourself 2p every time you pull a pint for a drunken arsehole.
    One of the reasons that pubs are in decline is because of large pub companies. Every margin is cut to the bone, every penny that can be squeezed out of a landlord is being wrung from them. A few years back, I wrote more than one IT system that was designed to do the squeezing :D

    It really is a knife-edge business and on teh drinks side it can even be a loss-leader why is why so many pubs switched to gastro. Food was where the profit margins lay.
    Food was the only reason we stayed afloat so long.
    I grew up in a pub (from age 7 to age 22). When we moved in, the village had four pubs. When we moved out, we were the last one standing.

    Brewery-owned pubs (back then, anyway) used to be run as rackets for the brewery. They would inexorably raise your rent every year (ours went up more than tenfold over those years) and ensure your tied lager had a minimal profit margin (for you) until you went broke. Then you were out and the next lot came in.

    There was never any shortage of people wanting to run a pub. It's one of those things that many people seemed to want to do. They'd turn up full of enthusiasm and optimism, and pour in their life savings over however-long they were there. And they would. Until they ran out of savings, couldn't go any further, and left, jaded and broke.

    And the cycle would repeat. The brewery soaking family after family of their life savings, with people queueing up to oblige. We managed to stave it off for so many years by getting into providing food ahead of the crowd and building up a wide reputation for good food. And by Mum (who did the food) getting up at 6 every morning and going to bed at midnight (when the local doctor found out she'd omitted actually taking even one day off over a period of over a decade, he insisted she take a break, which she thinks saved her health).

    It was only the independents that really stood a chance of surviving long-term and being profitable. I don't know if that's changed since I was there.
    The Managed Pubs had a better survivability rate because the landlord was effectively an employee. The franchised pubs were the money earners for the pub company because they had no costs and a tied supply deal.

    Also, the pub companies are not immune. I did some work for a smaller one that was run by Ebeneezer Scrooge and Jacob Marley :) They eventually squeezed so hard that some of the franchisees went bust and that then caused problems for Scrooge & Marley who then went bust themselves. We kept them on a short leash, but they still owed us about £1K when they went down.
    We have a three pubs locally, one owned and managed by the brewery ....... local opinions vary...... one owned by a big pubco, which apparently has a lot of independence, and is held to be very good, and one by a smaller pubco where the licensee changes quite frequently, and where the last two complained to the regulars frequently about the policies of the owners.
    A few years back I knew a chap who quit the City for health/family/lifestyle reasons.

    Sold up and moved too the deep country etc.

    He ended up running a pub as part of the hotel he started.

    I met him a couple of times afterwards - friend of a friend. Said that since he owned all the property outright and bought the beer from small, local producers, he was almost terrified by how little he needed to charge compared to the other local pubs. He didn't drip the prices *that* much - simply not to end up with all the trade, which he couldn't accommodate.

    His point was that someone was talking a staggering amount of money out of the pub business and it wasn't usually landlords.

    Wonder how he is doing.
    @Sean_F has posted on here before (I think as a thread header) that PubCos are vampire squids, just as @Andy_Cooke gave a personal example of.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1309437989882392577

    Sturgeon, Sunak and Whitty having a good crisis;

    Boris, Hancock and Raab not so.

    Was this before the Lock Up The Lepers policy in Scotland? Although, again like the Nike affair, it will get far less coverage than when the same disaster happens in English universities.
    If someone is already liked and trusted they could cock up in the same way as someone else and take no hit or far less of a hit. Its why even when doing the same things with basically the same results one will be trusted on that issue more. Its when background and past performance really come into play.
    Ingrained bias is what it is called. Boris haters happily admit it is the prism through which they see everything he does
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    The danger for Labour is weaning themselves off the identity politics teat.

    Economics (absolutely crucial though it is) is only one part of why people vote now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Absolutely the right policy to back scrapping, well done Keir.

    Well done on losing the most reliable voting bloc in the country! :lol:

    People said Sir Keir was too expensive a Tory sleeper agent, but I always knew it would pay off in the end...
    What is the point of voting for your precious Tory party if you totally fuck the country?

    What criteria, apart from "I always have done" do you employ before deciding on a Party to support?
    1. Is the party going to tax me more or less than the alternatives?
    2. Is the party in favour of or opposed to cultural wokery?
    3. Does the party have a realistic chance of winning?

    If an alternative to the Conservatives ever arises that is lower-tax, lower-woke, and a serious challenger for power, they will be a strong contender for my vote.

    I don't expect to see one any time soon though.
    That is a fair answer. I suppose that whoever forms the next government will be struggling with some pretty severe fiscal challenges.

    So leaving aside 2 which is a frippery, and 3 because according to opinion polls they do, if it turned out that overall they promised a lower tax take than the Cons...would you vote Lab?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Stupid response when the opposition is giving you cover to do the right thing for once.
    Labour is not the only alternative choice to the Tories for pensioners, they could also go back to Farage
    You are fixated by a man who is effectively retired and a party(ies) that is effectively defunct
    I very much doubt it. He will have the anti lockdown vote at the next set of elections, and that could be a lot bigger than it is showing in polls now.
    Where's his ground operation ?

    My MP, Brendan Clarke-Smith is as big a leaver as you'll find and is pushing for more openings (Though 100% loyal on the whip I think). A Farage candidate wouldn't get a hearing here in Bassetlaw - and if they won't get a hearing in red/blue wall switching 70+% leave Bassetlaw, well just where is the opening ?
    You could have said the same a few years before the 2015 and 2019 GE's, and the preceding Euros, but he was very influential in all of them
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880

    This is the problem Cummings has - if you watch the video in full you'll see why it's obvious:

    https://youtu.be/YPDmNaEG8v4

    SEAL Team 6 was disbanded in 1987.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    edited September 2020

    isam said:

    Starmer is playing an absolute blinder.

    The Tories assumed Labour would stick on the hard left and the Tories could clean up from the centre left, centre and the right.

    They did not bank on Keir playing a master-stroke and re-creating New Labour

    But still not as good as Ed Miliband was doing at this stage
    The 2010-2015 polls were proved to be wrong, so I am not sure we can compare directly.

    Keir's approval ratings far exceed Ed's which was always the marker of what was actually going on.
    Ed's exceeded David Cameron's , I wouldn't agree that was a good marker of what was going on

    If recent (and 2010-2015 is recent) polls are so demonstrably wrong, why place such faith in the current ones?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    The danger for Labour is weaning themselves off the identity politics teat.

    Economics (absolutely crucial though it is) is only one part of why people vote now.
    The Boris party has to be careful it does not get suckered into identity politics from the other side.

    Exhibit A is @BluestBlue is who is just as obsessed with "wokeism" as the most ardent Corbynista.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Pulpstar said:

    The one thing Farage could do I think is let Starmer in :D - might be for the best if Boris is still leading the Tories though !
    Reckon Sunak wins Farage or no Farage.

    More Leavers would likely leave the Tories for Farage if Sunak rather than Boris was Tory leader, however would Sunak win back enough Remainers from Labour and the LDs to make up for that is the question?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835

    How do you know if you're talking to someone from Huddersfield? They'll tell you within 5 minutes that it's the "biggest town in England".

    I don't know if its actually true or not but I once heard that an unusual claim to fame for Warrington is that we're the biggest town in Europe without a professional football club. Of course very much a Rugby League town so everyone is mad about the Wolves instead, plus sandwiched on the M62 right inbetween Liverpool and Manchester so not exactly a shortage of nearby football clubs for people to support but still . . .
    Wakefield would be a serious challenger. St Helens too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think it is safe to say the Tories will still be winning the pensioner vote in 2024 at least

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1309420377496580096?s=20

    Stupid response when the opposition is giving you cover to do the right thing for once.
    Labour is not the only alternative choice to the Tories for pensioners, they could also go back to Farage
    You are fixated by a man who is effectively retired and a party(ies) that is effectively defunct
    I very much doubt it. He will have the anti lockdown vote at the next set of elections, and that could be a lot bigger than it is showing in polls now.
    Where's his ground operation ?

    My MP, Brendan Clarke-Smith is as big a leaver as you'll find and is pushing for more openings (Though 100% loyal on the whip I think). A Farage candidate wouldn't get a hearing here in Bassetlaw - and if they won't get a hearing in red/blue wall switching 70+% leave Bassetlaw, well just where is the opening ?
    Farage was UKIP leader when UKIP got 16% of the vote in Bassetlaw at the 2015 general election

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassetlaw_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The one thing Farage could do I think is let Starmer in :D - might be for the best if Boris is still leading the Tories though !
    Reckon Sunak wins Farage or no Farage.

    More Leavers would likely leave the Tories for Farage if Sunak rather than Boris was Tory leader, however would Sunak win back enough Remainers from Labour and the LDs to make up for that is the question?
    You're obsessed with "leavers". Most "leavers" are just getting on with their lives and are not obsessed with Brexit still. Just like most "remainers".

    It's just the frothers on both sides who are still obsessed.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    I love how people who criticised every lockdown measure as not going far enough are now turning into fiscal hawks when the bill for those measures comes in.

    Honestly what did you expect?

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    RobD said:

    nichomar said:

    Starmer is playing an absolute blinder.

    The Tories assumed Labour would stick on the hard left and the Tories could clean up from the centre left, centre and the right.

    They did not bank on Keir playing a master-stroke and re-creating New Labour

    What, with Corbyn, RBL and crew still in the party together with ultra left CLPs awaiting their opportunity to return.
    They've been greatly diminished. I find it hard to imagine them getting back into the leadership anytime soon.
    I believe something like 80%+ of members approve of Keir. The hard left membership was always a fringe.
    Well they need to get off their collective arses and regain the CLP,s from the loonies, as do members of UNITE.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    This is the problem Cummings has - if you watch the video in full you'll see why it's obvious:

    https://youtu.be/YPDmNaEG8v4

    SEAL Team 6 was disbanded in 1987.
    It's still the widely used moniker - and this was to a layman audience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAL_Team_Six
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    You are misremembering. Cons in 1997 had had too long in power and were seen as sleazy and tired and the country was ready for change.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    Now is the right time to ditch the Triple Lock and there is cover to do it.

    By the time of the next election pensioners will have adjusted and be concerned about other policies Labour advocate where their values are very different.
    It has neither sense nor justification in the unprecedented circumstances of significant earnings depression one year and (one hopes) dramatic recovery the year after. You'd hope even HY could understand that. If he thought for a bit.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    edited September 2020

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    I love how people who criticised every lockdown measure as not going far enough are now turning into fiscal hawks when the bill for those measures comes in.

    Honestly what did you expect?

    Hate to say I told you so, but...

    I said many times that when the economy is mullered after the lockdown measures, it will be those criticising Boris for not locking down hard enough who will be criticisng him for the economy being mullered. And so it has come to pass
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2020
    dixiedean said:

    How do you know if you're talking to someone from Huddersfield? They'll tell you within 5 minutes that it's the "biggest town in England".

    I don't know if its actually true or not but I once heard that an unusual claim to fame for Warrington is that we're the biggest town in Europe without a professional football club. Of course very much a Rugby League town so everyone is mad about the Wolves instead, plus sandwiched on the M62 right inbetween Liverpool and Manchester so not exactly a shortage of nearby football clubs for people to support but still . . .
    Wakefield would be a serious challenger. St Helens too.
    Are you just naming every Rugby League town? 🤣

    I believe Warrington has got more population than the two of them combined.
  • HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The one thing Farage could do I think is let Starmer in :D - might be for the best if Boris is still leading the Tories though !
    Reckon Sunak wins Farage or no Farage.

    More Leavers would likely leave the Tories for Farage if Sunak rather than Boris was Tory leader, however would Sunak win back enough Remainers from Labour and the LDs to make up for that is the question?
    You do realise that by the time that becomes relevant we will be out of the EU with either a deal or no deal and Farage will be long distant bad memory
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The one thing Farage could do I think is let Starmer in :D - might be for the best if Boris is still leading the Tories though !
    Reckon Sunak wins Farage or no Farage.

    More Leavers would likely leave the Tories for Farage if Sunak rather than Boris was Tory leader, however would Sunak win back enough Remainers from Labour and the LDs to make up for that is the question?
    You do realise that by the time that becomes relevant we will be out of the EU with either a deal or no deal and Farage will be long distant bad memory
    I wouldn't bet on it. Lockdown is the new Brexit
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited September 2020

    dixiedean said:

    How do you know if you're talking to someone from Huddersfield? They'll tell you within 5 minutes that it's the "biggest town in England".

    I don't know if its actually true or not but I once heard that an unusual claim to fame for Warrington is that we're the biggest town in Europe without a professional football club. Of course very much a Rugby League town so everyone is mad about the Wolves instead, plus sandwiched on the M62 right inbetween Liverpool and Manchester so not exactly a shortage of nearby football clubs for people to support but still . . .
    Wakefield would be a serious challenger. St Helens too.
    Are you just naming going to name every Rugby League town? 🤣

    I believe Warrington has got more population than the two of them combined.
    Leeds is the biggest city in England (outside of London) if you go off Local Authority population.

    EDIT: this is actually wrong. Nevermind. It's Birmingham, then Leeds.
  • dixiedean said:

    How do you know if you're talking to someone from Huddersfield? They'll tell you within 5 minutes that it's the "biggest town in England".

    I don't know if its actually true or not but I once heard that an unusual claim to fame for Warrington is that we're the biggest town in Europe without a professional football club. Of course very much a Rugby League town so everyone is mad about the Wolves instead, plus sandwiched on the M62 right inbetween Liverpool and Manchester so not exactly a shortage of nearby football clubs for people to support but still . . .
    Wakefield would be a serious challenger. St Helens too.
    Are you just naming going to name every Rugby League town? 🤣

    I believe Warrington has got more population than the two of them combined.
    I once heard that Mansfield was the largest English town without a railway station - not sure how true that is.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fact that Labour are on the side of fiscal sanity and the Tories aren't should be a huge wake up call to every single Tory in the land. All of the chortling about votes at a time when the nation is set to borrow £300bn in a single year is bullshit and shows how far the party has descended into partisan politics rather than looking out for the good of the nation.

    At this point in time the Tory party led by Boris is a danger to the nation's future and Labour led by Starmer isn't. Let that sink in for every would patriot who votes Tory.

    It is an extraordinary turnaround. Losing credibility over the nations finances to Labour is what made 1997 possible.
    Yes, Boris is putting the Tory party out of power for two cycles with these policies. Working age people are all looking at Labour and realising they are the responsible party.
    I love how people who criticised every lockdown measure as not going far enough are now turning into fiscal hawks when the bill for those measures comes in.

    Honestly what did you expect?

    Hate to say I told you so, but...

    I said many times that when the economy is mullered after the lockdown measures, it will be those criticising Boris for not locking down hard enough who will be criticisng him for the economy being mullered. And so it has come to pass
    Sean is up already?
This discussion has been closed.