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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Falling down

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 10 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Falling down

Michael Douglas’s defining performance remains his leading role in Falling Down. He plays the part of a man who, when his car gets stuck in an unending traffic jam, steps out on foot and strikes against the annoyances and dangers of everyday life in a way that audiences would have dreamt of but never have dared.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 9,240
    First?
  • eekeek Posts: 9,240
    edited September 10
    and second
  • That is quite a good summary Alastair.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 6,291
    Very enjoyable thread header - somewhat incredible to be entertaining on such well trodden ground.
  • Spot on Alastair. I have to say, I no longer really understand the government's strategy, but whatever it is I suspect it's not going as planned.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 35,647
    Great piece.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 35,647
    I guess that blue cheese deal with Japan is off then?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,403
    I love the effortless shift from 'Masterly Lawyer Starmer will read Boris the Riot Act at PMQs' to 'Ostrich Starmer will masterfully dodge the issue completely and hope someone else takes care of it for him' amongst his fans...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,593
    We are likely to be on No Deal WTO terms by January, agreed.

    However ironically free trade Leavers may find their best hope of reaching their EEA promised land lies with a PM Starmer after the next election who would surely accept an EEA style trade deal with the EU, Boris' coalition would see that as a betrayal so the Tories are now committed to hard Brexit for a generation
  • I love the effortless shift from 'Masterly Lawyer Starmer will read Boris the Riot Act at PMQs' to 'Ostrich Starmer will masterfully dodge the issue completely and hope someone else takes care of it for him' amongst his fans...

    Starmer has been very smart on this. If he had attacked Johnson on it then it's unlikely that Tory critics like Lamont, Howard, Major and May would have stepped in. As is often noted, never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.
  • I rather like the hamburger scene in Falling Down, I've never seen the movie I must admit but seen that scene before on YouTube. I always hated it when it was 10:31 and a certain burger restaurant insists they won't do breakfast too.

    Apropos of nothing they do end up offering to sort out his breakfast afterall.

    I should probably watch the rest of the movie at some point.

    Moving on to the thesis I'm not sure "wake up suckers" is convince anyone to change their minds.

    I am a free trade leaver, I don't hate the EU and I don't hate immigration. I don't agree that we're losing though - it is a long game. In order for Britain to fully engage with free trade we must have a clean slate and the chance to negotiate our own future. That means getting rid of the EU controls now.

    If that means torching our existing arrangements for a bit so be it. Proper forest management requires controlled burnbacks sometimes.
  • Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,960
    edited September 10

    Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.

    d) romantic nationalist nostalgist.
    e) careerist << Boris
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,593
    edited September 10

    Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.

    Boris is about to take the UK to WTO terms no trade deal Brexit, to replace free movement with a points system and to impose new tariffs on imports, the first PM to impose new tariffs since Neville Chamberlain, son of the iconic protectionist Joseph Chamberlain.

    Boris' polices will then be more Trump than Cameron
  • Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.

    There is also a dimension not explored in the header between the small state fanatics like John Redwood, and at the other pole, Boris and Cummings who favour massive state intervention, as shown in the manifesto written before the Covid-19 pandemic.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,279

    Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.

    That’s because he was a remainer.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 21,354
    Singapore-on-Thames is a truly laughable idea. The average wage in Singapore is lower than here and the economy relies on masses of cheap immigrant labour. The very richest in Singapore are richer than our very richest but that's not something to boast about. I'm also not sure that building a nation in being a brass plaque tax haven makes sense when there is a £350bn per year welfare state to fund plus other spending. Singapore as a model makes absolutely no sense as it is a city state, it just doesn't have the same profile as the UK.


  • Apparently this "strategy" came out of an away day a couple of weeks ago. Thinks back to the Thick of It episode.
  • MangoMango Posts: 749

    I rather like the hamburger scene in Falling Down, I've never seen the movie I must admit but seen that scene before on YouTube. I always hated it when it was 10:31 and a certain burger restaurant insists they won't do breakfast too.

    Apropos of nothing they do end up offering to sort out his breakfast afterall.

    I should probably watch the rest of the movie at some point.

    Moving on to the thesis I'm not sure "wake up suckers" is convince anyone to change their minds.

    I am a free trade leaver, I don't hate the EU and I don't hate immigration. I don't agree that we're losing though - it is a long game. In order for Britain to fully engage with free trade we must have a clean slate and the chance to negotiate our own future. That means getting rid of the EU controls now.

    If that means torching our existing arrangements for a bit so be it. Proper forest management requires controlled burnbacks sometimes.

    So that's why the uplands are sunlit. All the trees, buildings and people have been torched.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,403
    Basically, we just want the EU to admit that there's nothing wrong with the street:



    Ah, Falling Down is probably the finest black comedy of all time...
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 1,224
    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 12,019
    Mr Meeks overlooked the category of Leave voter who wished to leave the undemocratic capitalist hegemony as a first step on the road to a Socialist Utopia.

    We are definitely playing a long game.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,960

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    The one with the big tourism industry.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,593

    Mr Meeks overlooked the category of Leave voter who wished to leave the undemocratic capitalist hegemony as a first step on the road to a Socialist Utopia.

    We are definitely playing a long game.

    You got as close as you were ever going to get in 2017
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,593
    edited September 10
    MaxPB said:

    Singapore-on-Thames is a truly laughable idea. The average wage in Singapore is lower than here and the economy relies on masses of cheap immigrant labour. The very richest in Singapore are richer than our very richest but that's not something to boast about. I'm also not sure that building a nation in being a brass plaque tax haven makes sense when there is a £350bn per year welfare state to fund plus other spending. Singapore as a model makes absolutely no sense as it is a city state, it just doesn't have the same profile as the UK.

    Yes, Singapore could work for London (in which case Londoners would want to be in the single market anyway) but the UK is the equivalent of Malaysia
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,960
    HYUFD said:

    Mr Meeks overlooked the category of Leave voter who wished to leave the undemocratic capitalist hegemony as a first step on the road to a Socialist Utopia.

    We are definitely playing a long game.

    You got as close as you were ever going to get in 2017
    Boris nationalised everything and is now setting us up like Cuba.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,593

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    The Far East has fewer new cases than both and mandatory mask wearing there
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 6,998

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 47,978
    edited September 10
    Fraser Nelson stated that the government have discussed having high profile raids on students to make a big show about sticking to rule of 6.

    I can see the uproar from all the middle.class parents bemoaning little Timmy being criminalized.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 11,396
    edited September 10
    David Frost issues the blandest of statements on Twitter about the negotiations. Responses from Leavers are interesting and pretty consistent: Stay firm; we're behind you; you are doing a great job.

    Not quite sure what they think that great job will achieve, but clearly Frost is on their team. They don't seem particularly swivel eyed. Actually rather politer than the Remainers on the thread

    Edit. May need to revise my view once you get off Frost's timeline and onto theirs. Actually they are a bunch of racists. Quite shocked by this.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,021

    Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.

    There is also a dimension not explored in the header between the small state fanatics like John Redwood, and at the other pole, Boris and Cummings who favour massive state intervention, as shown in the manifesto written before the Covid-19 pandemic.
    This.
    This is the fundamental fault line. Because of the ineptitude of Corbyn, and the Panglossian boostering of Boris, and Brexit, the Tory tent is so big it contains MPs with polar opposite views from places with equally contradictory needs.
    They won on an interventionist manifesto which won new seats in areas which would benefit greatly from this.
    But most of their MPs have been raised on, and imbued with, 40 years of small state dogma.
    And they tend to represent places and people which don't want to pay the tax to fund the spending. Or suffer the house building.
    This coalition will fracture. Probably badly.
    But it will hold as long as Brexit is an issue.
  • FF43 said:

    David Frost issues the blandest of statements on Twitter about the negotiations. Responses from Leavers are interesting and pretty consistent: Stay firm; we're behind you; you are doing a great job.

    Not quite sure what they think that great job will achieve, but clearly Frost is on their team. They don't seem particularly swivel eyed. Actually rather politer than the Remainers on the thread

    That is the most vanilla statement imaginable.
  • MangoMango Posts: 749
    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    Still early days I reckon.

    But maybe it proves that Nordic social democracy works, and your right-wing dickheads are wrong about everything.
  • HYUFD said:

    Mr Meeks overlooked the category of Leave voter who wished to leave the undemocratic capitalist hegemony as a first step on the road to a Socialist Utopia.

    We are definitely playing a long game.

    You got as close as you were ever going to get in 2017
    No because Boris won by shooting a lot of Labour's 2017 foxes. This is like the Blairites and Cameroons having many policies in common even if their rhetoric was different. Boris is just as keen on state intervention in the economy as Jeremy Corbyn.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,593
    Mango said:

    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    Still early days I reckon.

    But maybe it proves that Nordic social democracy works, and your right-wing dickheads are wrong about everything.
    Well if you like Nordic social democracy so much then why don't you go and live there?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,593
    edited September 10

    HYUFD said:

    Mr Meeks overlooked the category of Leave voter who wished to leave the undemocratic capitalist hegemony as a first step on the road to a Socialist Utopia.

    We are definitely playing a long game.

    You got as close as you were ever going to get in 2017
    No because Boris won by shooting a lot of Labour's 2017 foxes. This is like the Blairites and Cameroons having many policies in common even if their rhetoric was different. Boris is just as keen on state intervention in the economy as Jeremy Corbyn.
    He is not nationalising the railways, the public utilities, Royal Mail etc or raising the top tax rate back to 50% or expanding union power however as Corbyn would have done. Nor is he anti Israel or anti USA
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 1,224
    Jonathan said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    The one with the big tourism industry.
    There are very few tourists in France. Just look throughout Europe where mask wearing is mandatory, cases are climbing hugely.

    How anyone can defend mask wearing now is beyond me. Countries need to get back to social distancing, people feel too protected in masks and don’t distance.

    There was a reason that the WHO didn’t recommend masks at the start of the pandemic. They don’t work because wearing one changes peoples behaviour and as they only offer very limited protection infections are rising. Forget laboratory tests of masks, look at the real world evidence. Sweden no masks very low cases, everywhere else with masks very high cases.


  • MangoMango Posts: 749
    HYUFD said:

    Mango said:

    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    Still early days I reckon.

    But maybe it proves that Nordic social democracy works, and your right-wing dickheads are wrong about everything.
    Well if you like Nordic social democracy so much then why don't you go and live there?
    I've lived in quite a few European countries. The UK is the crappiest.
  • Why is it that I can gain way more info off these internet shows like unherd or spectator tv than any of the crap on the rolling news channels or peston show etc.

    You don't need to agree with the political bent of the spectator to know Andrew Neal is a great interviewer and in just 2 episodes the two expert guests have been excellent.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,593

    Jonathan said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    The one with the big tourism industry.
    There are very few tourists in France. Just look throughout Europe where mask wearing is mandatory, cases are climbing hugely.

    How anyone can defend mask wearing now is beyond me. Countries need to get back to social distancing, people feel too protected in masks and don’t distance.

    There was a reason that the WHO didn’t recommend masks at the start of the pandemic. They don’t work because wearing one changes peoples behaviour and as they only offer very limited protection infections are rising. Forget laboratory tests of masks, look at the real world evidence. Sweden no masks very low cases, everywhere else with masks very high cases.


    Sweden is only the 93rd most populous nation on the planet but has the 38th highest number of Covid cases

    https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,021
    edited September 10

    HYUFD said:

    Mr Meeks overlooked the category of Leave voter who wished to leave the undemocratic capitalist hegemony as a first step on the road to a Socialist Utopia.

    We are definitely playing a long game.

    You got as close as you were ever going to get in 2017
    No because Boris won by shooting a lot of Labour's 2017 foxes. This is like the Blairites and Cameroons having many policies in common even if their rhetoric was different. Boris is just as keen on state intervention in the economy as Jeremy Corbyn.
    The problem is he isn't keen on funding it.
    As we see with the Covid Marshalls.
    Who will be an undertrained, under and probably unpaid bunch of volunteer busybodies overseen by some alma run by one of Dom's chums.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,593
    Mango said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mango said:

    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    Still early days I reckon.

    But maybe it proves that Nordic social democracy works, and your right-wing dickheads are wrong about everything.
    Well if you like Nordic social democracy so much then why don't you go and live there?
    I've lived in quite a few European countries. The UK is the crappiest.
    Well fine, I am sure we can do without you again, bye!
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,403
    Mango said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mango said:

    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    Still early days I reckon.

    But maybe it proves that Nordic social democracy works, and your right-wing dickheads are wrong about everything.
    Well if you like Nordic social democracy so much then why don't you go and live there?
    I've lived in quite a few European countries. The UK is the crappiest.
    Well, duh. We work very hard to make the country crappy for left-wingers :wink:
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 11,396

    FF43 said:

    David Frost issues the blandest of statements on Twitter about the negotiations. Responses from Leavers are interesting and pretty consistent: Stay firm; we're behind you; you are doing a great job.

    Not quite sure what they think that great job will achieve, but clearly Frost is on their team. They don't seem particularly swivel eyed. Actually rather politer than the Remainers on the thread

    That is the most vanilla statement imaginable.
    I then went into the some of the Twitter timelines for those people that seemed so polite to David Frost. Turns out they are racists almost to a man and woman. Scratch that for a bit of research...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 14,960

    Mango said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mango said:

    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    Still early days I reckon.

    But maybe it proves that Nordic social democracy works, and your right-wing dickheads are wrong about everything.
    Well if you like Nordic social democracy so much then why don't you go and live there?
    I've lived in quite a few European countries. The UK is the crappiest.
    Well, duh. We work very hard to make the country crappy for left-wingers :wink:
    Crappy for all and crappier by the day.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,278

    Why is it that I can gain way more info off these internet shows like unherd or spectator tv than any of the crap on the rolling news channels or peston show etc.

    You don't need to agree with the political bent of the spectator to know Andrew Neal is a great interviewer and in just 2 episodes the two expert guests have been excellent.

    I didn’t see the latest show, but the Professor Carl Heneghan chat you posted the other evening was superb — far better than anything on the telly.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 12,019
    HYUFD said:

    Mango said:

    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    Still early days I reckon.

    But maybe it proves that Nordic social democracy works, and your right-wing dickheads are wrong about everything.
    Well if you like Nordic social democracy so much then why don't you go and live there?
    Pickled herring. Worse than Thatcherism.

    Night all.
  • isamisam Posts: 33,469
    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    I was wondering what the consensus was on the Swedish approach now the dust has settled a little. It was ridiculed on here through most of our lockdown
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,278

    Jonathan said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    The one with the big tourism industry.
    There are very few tourists in France. Just look throughout Europe where mask wearing is mandatory, cases are climbing hugely.

    How anyone can defend mask wearing now is beyond me. Countries need to get back to social distancing, people feel too protected in masks and don’t distance.

    There was a reason that the WHO didn’t recommend masks at the start of the pandemic. They don’t work because wearing one changes peoples behaviour and as they only offer very limited protection infections are rising. Forget laboratory tests of masks, look at the real world evidence. Sweden no masks very low cases, everywhere else with masks very high cases.


    One of the severe practical flaws of masks is that you simply cannot hear what people are saying when they are masked. Thus, people naturally move closer, often removing their mask to speak...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,705
    edited September 10
    MaxPB said:

    Singapore-on-Thames is a truly laughable idea. The average wage in Singapore is lower than here and the economy relies on masses of cheap immigrant labour. The very richest in Singapore are richer than our very richest but that's not something to boast about. I'm also not sure that building a nation in being a brass plaque tax haven makes sense when there is a £350bn per year welfare state to fund plus other spending. Singapore as a model makes absolutely no sense as it is a city state, it just doesn't have the same profile as the UK.

    Yes. Actually this is something on which I think the EU has got it completely wrong, They are genuinely concerned that if they give us full access to the Single Market without us signing up to the 'level playing field' controls and especially signing up to curbs on state aid, then we will become an unfair, super-dynamic, competitor on their doorstep.

    This is the wrong way round IMO. They should be worried for the diametrically opposite reason: that without Thatcherite discipline being maintained on us by state aid rules, there will follow the British Leylandisation of the UK economy, leaving one of their core export markets in the kind of a structural decline we saw in the late 1960s and the 1970s. Certainly Cummings seems to want to take us back to Harold Wilson's 'white heat of technology' and Tony Benn's disastrous interventions in British industry.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,278
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr Meeks overlooked the category of Leave voter who wished to leave the undemocratic capitalist hegemony as a first step on the road to a Socialist Utopia.

    We are definitely playing a long game.

    You got as close as you were ever going to get in 2017
    No because Boris won by shooting a lot of Labour's 2017 foxes. This is like the Blairites and Cameroons having many policies in common even if their rhetoric was different. Boris is just as keen on state intervention in the economy as Jeremy Corbyn.
    He is not nationalising the railways, the public utilities, Royal Mail etc or raising the top tax rate back to 50% or expanding union power however as Corbyn would have done. Nor is he anti Israel or anti USA
    The railways are effectively nationalised now.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,198
    HYUFD said:

    We are likely to be on No Deal WTO terms by January, agreed.

    However ironically free trade Leavers may find their best hope of reaching their EEA promised land lies with a PM Starmer after the next election who would surely accept an EEA style trade deal with the EU, Boris' coalition would see that as a betrayal so the Tories are now committed to hard Brexit for a generation

    If the will of the people turns towards a less extreme relationship with the EU that is what the next government will strive for. Cummings master plan can be unpicked quite quickly once power has been transferred to the grown-ups.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,279

    Why is it that I can gain way more info off these internet shows like unherd or spectator tv than any of the crap on the rolling news channels or peston show etc.

    You don't need to agree with the political bent of the spectator to know Andrew Neal is a great interviewer and in just 2 episodes the two expert guests have been excellent.

    I think often these types of programmes benefit hugely from the lack of statutory requirement or expectation of political balance. Ironically the lack of a need to avoid the appearance of bias means they can say what they genuinely think, without worrying about those who disagree with what they say complaining that they are breaking their obligation to balance. Particularly when focusing on internal politics within their own political sphere.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 3,602

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Everyone treated by chemotherapy has cancer, but it is not the chemotherapy causing the cancer. Mark wearing is not causing the increase in cases in France.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 3,602

    MaxPB said:

    Singapore-on-Thames is a truly laughable idea. The average wage in Singapore is lower than here and the economy relies on masses of cheap immigrant labour. The very richest in Singapore are richer than our very richest but that's not something to boast about. I'm also not sure that building a nation in being a brass plaque tax haven makes sense when there is a £350bn per year welfare state to fund plus other spending. Singapore as a model makes absolutely no sense as it is a city state, it just doesn't have the same profile as the UK.

    Yes. Actually this is something on which I think the EU has got it completely wrong, They are genuinely concerned that if they give us full access to the Single Market without us signing up to the 'level playing field' controls and especially signing up to curbs on state aid, then we will become an unfair, super-dynamic, competitor on their doorstep.

    This is the wrong way round IMO. They should be worried for the diametrically opposite reason: that without Thatcherite discipline being maintained on us by state aid rules, there will follow the British Leylandisation of the UK economy, leaving one of their core export markets in the kind of a structural decline we saw in the late 1960s and the 1970s. Certainly Cummings seems to want to take us back to Harold Wilson's 'white heat of technology' and Tony Benn's disastrous interventions in British industry.
    Are you really claiming that Cummings is a Bennite?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 2,298

    HYUFD said:

    We are likely to be on No Deal WTO terms by January, agreed.

    However ironically free trade Leavers may find their best hope of reaching their EEA promised land lies with a PM Starmer after the next election who would surely accept an EEA style trade deal with the EU, Boris' coalition would see that as a betrayal so the Tories are now committed to hard Brexit for a generation

    If the will of the people turns towards a less extreme relationship with the EU that is what the next government will strive for. Cummings master plan can be unpicked quite quickly once power has been transferred to the grown-ups.
    Therein lies the beauty of Parliamentary sovereignty. If you don't like something, you can vote in a new lot and they can change the law.

    Question is, if you don't like an EU law, how do you change it? Who do you vote for?

    The democratic deficit at the heart of the EU hasn't gone away.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 24,517

    Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.

    Boris is not a Brexiteer.
    He’s merely a reckless gambler who put his money on them.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 3,602
    edited September 10
    isam said:

    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    I was wondering what the consensus was on the Swedish approach now the dust has settled a little. It was ridiculed on here through most of our lockdown
    Compare the deaths per million in sweden with its comparable neighbours' death rates.
  • alex_ said:

    Why is it that I can gain way more info off these internet shows like unherd or spectator tv than any of the crap on the rolling news channels or peston show etc.

    You don't need to agree with the political bent of the spectator to know Andrew Neal is a great interviewer and in just 2 episodes the two expert guests have been excellent.

    I think often these types of programmes benefit hugely from the lack of statutory requirement or expectation of political balance. Ironically the lack of a need to avoid the appearance of bias means they can say what they genuinely think, without worrying about those who disagree with what they say complaining that they are breaking their obligation to balance. Particularly when focusing on internal politics within their own political sphere.
    I think it is more you don't get the stupid interruptathon tactics / petty point scoring.
  • "No, Boris isn't breaching the rule of law. Here's why." - By David Wolfson QC
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/no-boris-is-not-breaching-the-rule-of-law-here-s-why

    I just read and like this article. Makes the same logical arguments I've been saying for the last few days, but probably in a much better phrased way since its by a QC. I wonder whether anyone is convinced by it?
  • eristdoof said:

    MaxPB said:

    Singapore-on-Thames is a truly laughable idea. The average wage in Singapore is lower than here and the economy relies on masses of cheap immigrant labour. The very richest in Singapore are richer than our very richest but that's not something to boast about. I'm also not sure that building a nation in being a brass plaque tax haven makes sense when there is a £350bn per year welfare state to fund plus other spending. Singapore as a model makes absolutely no sense as it is a city state, it just doesn't have the same profile as the UK.

    Yes. Actually this is something on which I think the EU has got it completely wrong, They are genuinely concerned that if they give us full access to the Single Market without us signing up to the 'level playing field' controls and especially signing up to curbs on state aid, then we will become an unfair, super-dynamic, competitor on their doorstep.

    This is the wrong way round IMO. They should be worried for the diametrically opposite reason: that without Thatcherite discipline being maintained on us by state aid rules, there will follow the British Leylandisation of the UK economy, leaving one of their core export markets in the kind of a structural decline we saw in the late 1960s and the 1970s. Certainly Cummings seems to want to take us back to Harold Wilson's 'white heat of technology' and Tony Benn's disastrous interventions in British industry.
    Are you really claiming that Cummings is a Bennite?
    Yes of course he is. The garbage he is coming out with is virtually identical to what I remember of the Wilson government. And his obsession with 'control rooms' with big screens displaying 'real-time data' is pure Stafford Beer:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 744
    edited September 10
    After careful consideration I shall be writing to my MP asking him to lodge a vote of no confidence in the prime minister as leader of the Conservative Party.

    This bullshit can’t go on much longer or everything that is great about Western democracy is going to wither and die. It’s that serious. The UK is setting an appalling example to wannabe authoritarians everywhere. And through quite unacceptable fear mongering the government is sedating the population into accepting the likely permenant erosion of civil liberties.

    I know not who I want to replace the PM, as there has been such an abject lack of leadership from the political class. For now I shall settle with the immediate sacking of Johnson, Hancock, Cummings and importantly Witty, Van Tam and Valance. Let us get on with our lives and balance our own risk tolerances.

    Yours
    A sometime Conservative voter
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 4,390
    edited September 10
    eristdoof said:

    MaxPB said:

    Singapore-on-Thames is a truly laughable idea. The average wage in Singapore is lower than here and the economy relies on masses of cheap immigrant labour. The very richest in Singapore are richer than our very richest but that's not something to boast about. I'm also not sure that building a nation in being a brass plaque tax haven makes sense when there is a £350bn per year welfare state to fund plus other spending. Singapore as a model makes absolutely no sense as it is a city state, it just doesn't have the same profile as the UK.

    Yes. Actually this is something on which I think the EU has got it completely wrong, They are genuinely concerned that if they give us full access to the Single Market without us signing up to the 'level playing field' controls and especially signing up to curbs on state aid, then we will become an unfair, super-dynamic, competitor on their doorstep.

    This is the wrong way round IMO. They should be worried for the diametrically opposite reason: that without Thatcherite discipline being maintained on us by state aid rules, there will follow the British Leylandisation of the UK economy, leaving one of their core export markets in the kind of a structural decline we saw in the late 1960s and the 1970s. Certainly Cummings seems to want to take us back to Harold Wilson's 'white heat of technology' and Tony Benn's disastrous interventions in British industry.
    Are you really claiming that Cummings is a Bennite?
    It is certainly true that Cummings and Boris favour state intervention in the economy. Just this week Cummings has been talking about creating British tech giants. Is that so different from "the white heat of technology" or Tony Benn?

    ETA from the Telegraph:
    A no-deal Brexit could clear the way to allowing the Government to directly invest into technology businesses

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/09/10/cummings-sees-no-deal-brexit-chance-uk-create-1-trillion-tech/
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,533
    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We are likely to be on No Deal WTO terms by January, agreed.

    However ironically free trade Leavers may find their best hope of reaching their EEA promised land lies with a PM Starmer after the next election who would surely accept an EEA style trade deal with the EU, Boris' coalition would see that as a betrayal so the Tories are now committed to hard Brexit for a generation

    If the will of the people turns towards a less extreme relationship with the EU that is what the next government will strive for. Cummings master plan can be unpicked quite quickly once power has been transferred to the grown-ups.
    Therein lies the beauty of Parliamentary sovereignty. If you don't like something, you can vote in a new lot and they can change the law.

    Question is, if you don't like an EU law, how do you change it? Who do you vote for?

    The democratic deficit at the heart of the EU hasn't gone away.
    You can't vote in a new lot, because you only control one MP. The best you can do is vote in a new representative for your particular area, and hope that other people in other areas also vote in like-minded people, and they get together and change the law.

    This also works for EU laws.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,279
    Re:universities and “the rule of six”. How on earth does this work in campus accommodation with a dozen (at least) people having shared kitchens?
  • isamisam Posts: 33,469
    edited September 10
    eristdoof said:

    isam said:

    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    I was wondering what the consensus was on the Swedish approach now the dust has settled a little. It was ridiculed on here through most of our lockdown
    Compare the deaths per million in sweden with its comparable neighbours' death rates.
    I thought I read it’s neighbours had overtaken them? Maybe I am misremembering

    Update to post. It’s cases that Denmark have overtaken Sweden in, not deaths. But the Danes aren’t going to lockdown again

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-10/new-covid-cases-soar-in-denmark-surpassing-no-lockdown-sweden
  • alex_ said:

    Re:universities and “the rule of six”. How on earth does this work in campus accommodation with a dozen (at least) people having shared kitchens?

    Being with people you live with isn't against the rules surely?
  • alex_ said:

    Re:universities and “the rule of six”. How on earth does this work in campus accommodation with a dozen (at least) people having shared kitchens?

    Designate students sharing a kitchen as a common household or bubble?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,048
    Nigelb said:

    Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.

    Boris is not a Brexiteer.
    He’s merely a reckless gambler who put his money on them.
    I think this is slightly unfair. He fundamentally doesn’t understand why the EU is necessary.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,254
    edited September 10
    MaxPB said:

    Singapore-on-Thames is a truly laughable idea. The average wage in Singapore is lower than here and the economy relies on masses of cheap immigrant labour. The very richest in Singapore are richer than our very richest but that's not something to boast about. I'm also not sure that building a nation in being a brass plaque tax haven makes sense when there is a £350bn per year welfare state to fund plus other spending. Singapore as a model makes absolutely no sense as it is a city state, it just doesn't have the same profile as the UK.

    No, the average salary in Singapore is S$57k, which is £38k. The average UK salary is £29k. And its average GDP growth over the last decade has been almost 4% while ours has been 1.5%, so the difference is growing.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,021

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We are likely to be on No Deal WTO terms by January, agreed.

    However ironically free trade Leavers may find their best hope of reaching their EEA promised land lies with a PM Starmer after the next election who would surely accept an EEA style trade deal with the EU, Boris' coalition would see that as a betrayal so the Tories are now committed to hard Brexit for a generation

    If the will of the people turns towards a less extreme relationship with the EU that is what the next government will strive for. Cummings master plan can be unpicked quite quickly once power has been transferred to the grown-ups.
    Therein lies the beauty of Parliamentary sovereignty. If you don't like something, you can vote in a new lot and they can change the law.

    Question is, if you don't like an EU law, how do you change it? Who do you vote for?

    The democratic deficit at the heart of the EU hasn't gone away.
    You can't vote in a new lot, because you only control one MP. The best you can do is vote in a new representative for your particular area, and hope that other people in other areas also vote in like-minded people, and they get together and change the law.

    This also works for EU laws.
    And in most cases you can't vote in a new representative for your area.
    As many many seats have huge majorities.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,533
    isam said:

    Andy_JS said:

    10,000 cases today in France, hardly any in Sweden. Which country has mandatory mask wearing ?

    Maybe this is proof that Sumption, Hitchens, Toadmeister, etc, were right all along.
    I was wondering what the consensus was on the Swedish approach now the dust has settled a little. It was ridiculed on here through most of our lockdown
    There's no consensus, just the same ongoing food fight. What happens is that people who don't support the Swedish approach compare them to their neighbouring/similar countries, and conclude that it was terrible for health and also bad for the economy, and people who do support it compare it to whatever country did worst, and conclude that it went pretty well.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 3,602
    edited September 10

    eristdoof said:

    MaxPB said:

    Singapore-on-Thames is a truly laughable idea. The average wage in Singapore is lower than here and the economy relies on masses of cheap immigrant labour. The very richest in Singapore are richer than our very richest but that's not something to boast about. I'm also not sure that building a nation in being a brass plaque tax haven makes sense when there is a £350bn per year welfare state to fund plus other spending. Singapore as a model makes absolutely no sense as it is a city state, it just doesn't have the same profile as the UK.

    Yes. Actually this is something on which I think the EU has got it completely wrong, They are genuinely concerned that if they give us full access to the Single Market without us signing up to the 'level playing field' controls and especially signing up to curbs on state aid, then we will become an unfair, super-dynamic, competitor on their doorstep.

    This is the wrong way round IMO. They should be worried for the diametrically opposite reason: that without Thatcherite discipline being maintained on us by state aid rules, there will follow the British Leylandisation of the UK economy, leaving one of their core export markets in the kind of a structural decline we saw in the late 1960s and the 1970s. Certainly Cummings seems to want to take us back to Harold Wilson's 'white heat of technology' and Tony Benn's disastrous interventions in British industry.
    Are you really claiming that Cummings is a Bennite?
    Yes of course he is. The garbage he is coming out with is virtually identical to what I remember of the Wilson government. And his obsession with 'control rooms' with big screens displaying 'real-time data' is pure Stafford Beer:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
    And yet all of the conservatives here were saying that corbyn was too left wing!

    I'm not saying corbyn was a good leader, Benn was a much better politician than Corbyn, but if the Johnson-cummings team is Bennite then you can't turn round and criticise corbyn for being too left wing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,048
    The mood hardened as Boris Johnson read what he had agreed and campaigned on.

  • alex_ said:

    Re:universities and “the rule of six”. How on earth does this work in campus accommodation with a dozen (at least) people having shared kitchens?

    What i was told (before the rule of 6) about one unis approach was they were already bring told that each "flat" in halls was being deemed as a household and they would be limited in who else they could socialise.

    Sounded like a prison camp.

    Not sure how well horny freshers will stick to it, and if they do sounds like it wont be much fun.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,279
    Doesn’t one potentially follow from the other? Programmes lacking a statutory requirement for “balance” aren’t required to have guests who are specifically selected because they will disagree with each other. That’s not to say that disagreement is a bad thing, but it is if it is manufactured or expected, as opposed to genuine debate built out of a common set of base assumptions.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 24,517
    Great article, Alastair.
    The Falling Down analogy doesn’t quite.... stand up, though, as the film was about someone driven mad by his powerlessness and irrelevance.
    We, in contrast, have voluntarily abandoned a position of some power and influence, to flounder around ineffectually, inflicting damage mainly on ourselves.
  • kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We are likely to be on No Deal WTO terms by January, agreed.

    However ironically free trade Leavers may find their best hope of reaching their EEA promised land lies with a PM Starmer after the next election who would surely accept an EEA style trade deal with the EU, Boris' coalition would see that as a betrayal so the Tories are now committed to hard Brexit for a generation

    If the will of the people turns towards a less extreme relationship with the EU that is what the next government will strive for. Cummings master plan can be unpicked quite quickly once power has been transferred to the grown-ups.
    Therein lies the beauty of Parliamentary sovereignty. If you don't like something, you can vote in a new lot and they can change the law.

    Question is, if you don't like an EU law, how do you change it? Who do you vote for?

    The democratic deficit at the heart of the EU hasn't gone away.
    You can't vote in a new lot, because you only control one MP. The best you can do is vote in a new representative for your particular area, and hope that other people in other areas also vote in like-minded people, and they get together and change the law.

    This also works for EU laws.
    It does not.

    In the UK with have UK parties debating the UK issues on our UK news channels and getting watched and then voted on by the voters. We also have a good voting system that ensures every area of the UK is represented by their most popular party in that area. Our MPs get together and can pass, change or repeal any law. Change of government happens at the ballot box.

    In the EU none of that is true. There are no real EU parties - yes there exists EU labels that badge on existing national parties but its not the same thing. The EU news isn't debated on EU news channels. They also have a dodgy voting system that takes power away from the voters and towards post-election political horsetrading. MEPs lack the power to pass, change or repeal any law they want to.
  • Nigelb said:

    Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.

    Boris is not a Brexiteer.
    He’s merely a reckless gambler who put his money on them.
    With a side order of conman who fell for a con trick.

    There was a chunk of pro-Brexit opinion that was convinced that the UK really could get a Better Trade Deal. All upside, no downside, cake and eat it. Canada obligations, plus plus plus rights. David Davis was another to push that line.

    It was obviously tosh all along. The EU's menu of alignment and access has been on public display all along, even as the UK kept saying "yes, yes, but we can do a special arrangement, know what I mean?"

    And as the clock runs down, and the feeble deal on the table becomes clearly the only deal on offer, and the lack of preparation by the UK to make that deal work more obvious, the frustration at being conned is becoming more palpable.

    But you can't cheat an honest man, and the easiest person to con is yourself.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,279
    edited September 10
    Grumble said:

    The key point is that British departure from the CU and SM is a breach of international law - given that the Republic of Ireland is staying in them. In other words a hard Brexit is a breach of international law, namely of the Good Friday Agreement.

    That was the whole point of the NI protocol! To allow for the possibility of a no deal departure without breaching the GFA. And why the crap the govt were coming up with yesterday about their legislation “safeguarding” the GFA being such nonsense.

    The NI Protocol was designed for a no deal scenario, not something that could be ditched if no deal occurred!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 6,998
    edited September 10
    Re Diana Rigg, I've been trying to get round to watching On Her Majesty's Secret Service for about 20 years. They don't show it on TV very often.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 24,517
    .
    dixiedean said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We are likely to be on No Deal WTO terms by January, agreed.

    However ironically free trade Leavers may find their best hope of reaching their EEA promised land lies with a PM Starmer after the next election who would surely accept an EEA style trade deal with the EU, Boris' coalition would see that as a betrayal so the Tories are now committed to hard Brexit for a generation

    If the will of the people turns towards a less extreme relationship with the EU that is what the next government will strive for. Cummings master plan can be unpicked quite quickly once power has been transferred to the grown-ups.
    Therein lies the beauty of Parliamentary sovereignty. If you don't like something, you can vote in a new lot and they can change the law.

    Question is, if you don't like an EU law, how do you change it? Who do you vote for?

    The democratic deficit at the heart of the EU hasn't gone away.
    You can't vote in a new lot, because you only control one MP. The best you can do is vote in a new representative for your particular area, and hope that other people in other areas also vote in like-minded people, and they get together and change the law.

    This also works for EU laws.
    And in most cases you can't vote in a new representative for your area.
    As many many seats have huge majorities.
    And if you support a third party you have effectively no say at all.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,278
    alex_ said:

    Re:universities and “the rule of six”. How on earth does this work in campus accommodation with a dozen (at least) people having shared kitchens?

    Who knows? But as the risks to those of student age are tiny, I dare say it won’t bother many of them. Nor the risk of a £100 fine for holding a house party. I suspect many will take their chances.
  • alex_ said:

    Doesn’t one potentially follow from the other? Programmes lacking a statutory requirement for “balance” aren’t required to have guests who are specifically selected because they will disagree with each other. That’s not to say that disagreement is a bad thing, but it is if it is manufactured or expected, as opposed to genuine debate built out of a common set of base assumptions.

    What i am more impressed with is say Freddie Sayers on Unherd is he is really ontop of the stats, latest research, and which comparisons you need to be careful about.

    You don't sit there going FFS he has got this and this and this wrong before even asking a question.
  • Nigelb said:

    Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.

    Boris is not a Brexiteer.
    He’s merely a reckless gambler who put his money on them.
    With a side order of conman who fell for a con trick.

    There was a chunk of pro-Brexit opinion that was convinced that the UK really could get a Better Trade Deal. All upside, no downside, cake and eat it. Canada obligations, plus plus plus rights. David Davis was another to push that line.

    It was obviously tosh all along. The EU's menu of alignment and access has been on public display all along, even as the UK kept saying "yes, yes, but we can do a special arrangement, know what I mean?"

    And as the clock runs down, and the feeble deal on the table becomes clearly the only deal on offer, and the lack of preparation by the UK to make that deal work more obvious, the frustration at being conned is becoming more palpable.

    But you can't cheat an honest man, and the easiest person to con is yourself.
    The UK can get a better deal, we just may need to go to no deal for a while and then build it from scratch.

    Sometimes you just need to blow up what you have, clear away the rubble and rebuild.
  • alex_ said:

    Re:universities and “the rule of six”. How on earth does this work in campus accommodation with a dozen (at least) people having shared kitchens?

    Who knows? But as the risks to those of student age are tiny, I dare say it won’t bother many of them. Nor the risk of a £100 fine for holding a house party. I suspect many will take their chances.
    Like paying your tv licence as a student....
  • Nigelb said:

    Header posits three classes of Brexiteer:
    a) hates EU
    b) immigration
    c) free trade

    Problem is, this fails at the first hurdle, at least for me, because I can't fit Boris in to any of these. Boris does not hate the EU, is pro-immigration, and does not seem to have much idea on trade one way or the other, which is probably what led him to inadvertantly plonk the border down the Irish Sea.

    Boris is not a Brexiteer.
    He’s merely a reckless gambler who put his money on them.
    I think this is slightly unfair. He fundamentally doesn’t understand why the EU is necessary.
    It isn't necessary.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,254
    Andy_JS said:

    Re Diana Rigg, I've been trying to get round to watching On Her Majesty's Secret Service for about 20 years. They don't show it on TV very often.

    It's a very weird film - sort of a mixture of a very camp Bond and a Carry On. I can see why it was the only time they tried that formula.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,533

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We are likely to be on No Deal WTO terms by January, agreed.

    However ironically free trade Leavers may find their best hope of reaching their EEA promised land lies with a PM Starmer after the next election who would surely accept an EEA style trade deal with the EU, Boris' coalition would see that as a betrayal so the Tories are now committed to hard Brexit for a generation

    If the will of the people turns towards a less extreme relationship with the EU that is what the next government will strive for. Cummings master plan can be unpicked quite quickly once power has been transferred to the grown-ups.
    Therein lies the beauty of Parliamentary sovereignty. If you don't like something, you can vote in a new lot and they can change the law.

    Question is, if you don't like an EU law, how do you change it? Who do you vote for?

    The democratic deficit at the heart of the EU hasn't gone away.
    You can't vote in a new lot, because you only control one MP. The best you can do is vote in a new representative for your particular area, and hope that other people in other areas also vote in like-minded people, and they get together and change the law.

    This also works for EU laws.
    It does not.

    In the UK with have UK parties debating the UK issues on our UK news channels and getting watched and then voted on by the voters. We also have a good voting system that ensures every area of the UK is represented by their most popular party in that area. Our MPs get together and can pass, change or repeal any law. Change of government happens at the ballot box.

    In the EU none of that is true. There are no real EU parties - yes there exists EU labels that badge on existing national parties but its not the same thing. The EU news isn't debated on EU news channels. They also have a dodgy voting system that takes power away from the voters and towards post-election political horsetrading. MEPs lack the power to pass, change or repeal any law they want to.
    OK, let's accept for the sake of argument that the French Socialists have nothing to do with the Spanish Socialists and the Dutch Liberals have nothing to do with the German Liberals.

    Do voters in Northern Ireland not have a democracy?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,021
    alex_ said:

    Doesn’t one potentially follow from the other? Programmes lacking a statutory requirement for “balance” aren’t required to have guests who are specifically selected because they will disagree with each other. That’s not to say that disagreement is a bad thing, but it is if it is manufactured or expected, as opposed to genuine debate built out of a common set of base assumptions.

    And it is the case that people from different backgrounds or viewpoints finding common ground is discouraged. Agreeing about certain points whilst coming from opposite standpoints is extremely rare in the media.
    Because it doesn't make good TV or radio.
    However, we see it on here quite often.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,198
    Andy_JS said:

    Re Diana Rigg, I've been trying to get round to watching On Her Majesty's Secret Service for about 20 years. They don't show it on TV very often.

    Lazenby is terrible, but the rest of the film is ok. I would go as far as to say had Connery starred as Bond, it would have been his finest.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 744

    alex_ said:

    Re:universities and “the rule of six”. How on earth does this work in campus accommodation with a dozen (at least) people having shared kitchens?

    Who knows? But as the risks to those of student age are tiny, I dare say it won’t bother many of them. Nor the risk of a £100 fine for holding a house party. I suspect many will take their chances.
    Forget house parties. Boris Johnson can go fuck himself, for making me a lawbreaker if I wish to see my brother and his family or my children’s grandparents in my own home. His historical legacy lies in tatters at this point whatever he does. Because his lasting impact will be his sharp and unnecessary lurch to authoritarianism and away from civil liberties. I don’t care about his “it pains me”. You’re the PM. Sack your scientific advisors and show leadership, this isn’t a health crisis that anywhere near warrants the actions taken.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,279

    alex_ said:

    Re:universities and “the rule of six”. How on earth does this work in campus accommodation with a dozen (at least) people having shared kitchens?

    Who knows? But as the risks to those of student age are tiny, I dare say it won’t bother many of them. Nor the risk of a £100 fine for holding a house party. I suspect many will take their chances.
    They might do if universities are imposing their own enforcement mechanisms on top, including potential threat of disciplinary action, potentially expulsion. Which might happen because the Govt will probably place obligations on universities to ensure compliance, backed up by harsh penalties.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,593
    edited September 10
    Andy_JS said:

    Re Diana Rigg, I've been trying to get round to watching On Her Majesty's Secret Service for about 20 years. They don't show it on TV very often.

    It was on ITV a few months ago, though it is very long, almost 3 hours
  • vinovino Posts: 6
    Moonshine said
    ""After careful consideration I shall be writing to my MP asking him to lodge a vote of no confidence in the prime minister as leader of the Conservative Party.

    This bullshit can’t go on much longer or everything that is great about Western democracy is going to wither and die. It’s that serious. The UK is setting an appalling example to wannabe authoritarians everywhere. And through quite unacceptable fear mongering the government is sedating the population into accepting the likely permenant erosion of civil liberties.

    I know not who I want to replace the PM, as there has been such an abject lack of leadership from the political class. For now I shall settle with the immediate sacking of Johnson, Hancock, Cummings and importantly Witty, Van Tam and Valance. Let us get on with our lives and balance our own risk tolerances.

    Yours

    ITV local news [East Midlands] interviewed 2 former labour voters who said they would carry on voting tory and one undecided who would carry on voting tory - they had done a poll on Boris in Worksop [I think] p poll to come out on later programme
  • isamisam Posts: 33,469
    edited September 10
    Anti lockdown people are in a similar situation to those who wanted to leave the EU were in the early part of the last decade - there are quite a lot of them, but they are totally unrepresented by the parties in the HofC
  • kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We are likely to be on No Deal WTO terms by January, agreed.

    However ironically free trade Leavers may find their best hope of reaching their EEA promised land lies with a PM Starmer after the next election who would surely accept an EEA style trade deal with the EU, Boris' coalition would see that as a betrayal so the Tories are now committed to hard Brexit for a generation

    If the will of the people turns towards a less extreme relationship with the EU that is what the next government will strive for. Cummings master plan can be unpicked quite quickly once power has been transferred to the grown-ups.
    Therein lies the beauty of Parliamentary sovereignty. If you don't like something, you can vote in a new lot and they can change the law.

    Question is, if you don't like an EU law, how do you change it? Who do you vote for?

    The democratic deficit at the heart of the EU hasn't gone away.
    You can't vote in a new lot, because you only control one MP. The best you can do is vote in a new representative for your particular area, and hope that other people in other areas also vote in like-minded people, and they get together and change the law.

    This also works for EU laws.
    It does not.

    In the UK with have UK parties debating the UK issues on our UK news channels and getting watched and then voted on by the voters. We also have a good voting system that ensures every area of the UK is represented by their most popular party in that area. Our MPs get together and can pass, change or repeal any law. Change of government happens at the ballot box.

    In the EU none of that is true. There are no real EU parties - yes there exists EU labels that badge on existing national parties but its not the same thing. The EU news isn't debated on EU news channels. They also have a dodgy voting system that takes power away from the voters and towards post-election political horsetrading. MEPs lack the power to pass, change or repeal any law they want to.
    OK, let's accept for the sake of argument that the French Socialists have nothing to do with the Spanish Socialists and the Dutch Liberals have nothing to do with the German Liberals.

    Do voters in Northern Ireland not have a democracy?
    They do, though they're definitely unique to the rest of the UK.

    But if the voters of Northern Ireland dislike any UK law, lets say the NI Protocol of the EU Withdrawal Act as an example, and then the MPs representing Northern Ireland constituencies work with a majority of MPs across the UK and vote to repeal the law then the law is gone. That is democracy.

    If the voters of Northern Ireland want a new law and then convince a majority of MPs from across the country to back it then it becomes the law. That is democracy.

    Does the same thing happen with MEPs? If a majority of MEPs vote to remove a law does it go? Can an MEP introduce a proposed new law and see it become the law because a majority of MEPs backed it?

    No, because law changes aren't simply decided by the Parliament. The European Parliament is not sovereign like ours is.
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