I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Brexit has happened. There is no cause for such a distinction to exist. Unless you are meaning "Brexiteer" to mean "somebody in favour of having no trade deal with the EU, nor, apparently, with anyone else".
What has happened is that those who were originally remainers, but accepted Brexit as needing to happen as a consequence of the referendum vote, are no longer in any need to ally with referendum Brexiters, as the referendum mandate has now been fulfilled.
Everything now is about the terms of the future relationship(s)
I believe in the rule of law and democracy. A fundamental principle in democracy though is that the law can be changed, legitimately, via Parliament. That no Parliament can bind it's successors. That if the public do not approve of the law they can elect a government that will legitimately change the law.
"International law" violates that principle since it attempts to set in stone issues that a democratically elected government may subsequently wish to change. If a democratically elected government wishes to change the law then it absolutely should be able to do so.
Domestic law should not be broken. International law though can be. International law is not as binding in my personal opinion as domestic law.
I cannot believe you are trying to defend the indefensible
Boris should resign over this - it is just wrong
He should have gone when he illegally prorogued parliament and at subsequent moments since. But lots of people have defended him on his ego fuelled path of destruction every step of way.
Always good to have a late convert.
Everyone knew what Johnson was like when the Tories chose him. Having elected the mendacious, lazy oaf just a year ago Tories bear direct responsibility for what happens as a result, and that includes @Big_G_NorthWales
It was the voters themselves who gave Boris the biggest Tory majority since Thatcher, not just Tory members and MPs.
I know leftwingers and diehard Remainers on here are still bitter Boris trounced Corbyn and won a big majority to get Brexit done which he has now delivered but tough
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
AIUI what is proposed is that Ministers will have the power to regulate trade from and to Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK. That power gives them the right to override the agreement with the EU if they choose to do so.
The context of this is that the EU gave NI a special status with additional rights of access to the Single Market through Eire. The price of exercising this power would be that the EU may choose to withdraw those privileges. How significant that is for NI will very much depend upon what deal the UK has with the EU. In the event of a no deal it might be very significant and unwind some of the Irish peace accords which are built around the whole of Ireland being a single economy.
What I am finding strange about this is not that the UK government insists upon the right to regulate intra UK trade but that they think it is necessary to give these powers to Ministers now. The UK Parliament could of course grant Ministers such powers at any point so why do it now when the WA contained an undertaking that we would not do such a thing?
I think it is reasonable to infer that this is a shot across the EU's bows, that they cannot rely upon us complying with the WA indefinitely if there is no deal. This is presumably why such attention has been drawn to it. It is not a breach of an international agreement (let alone law) at all at the moment, it is the power to breach it if Ministers are so minded. This is a power we always have. Lewis could have said this power will only be used in consultation with the EU and with their agreement. He chose not to.
I am not comfortable with this tactic but both the header and many of the comments strike me as a little bit hysterical.
Is this oddly-timed kerfuffle a dead cat to distract us from something else? Looking round, all I can see is the announcement of a new trial for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54076857
Thinking through the politics a bit more - a no deal and its consequences which are directly linked to a government decision to renege on a deal it commended to the electorate is quite a sell. Some, maybe most, 2019 Tories will blame the EU. But Johnson/Cummings need them all to.
A deal is the best way of controlling migration - a central concern of Leavers.
Without it I could see Johnson being outflanked by *both* Starmer and Farage on migration next year. The Tory polling position would be diabolical.
I hope that's not what it takes to get rid of him but I'm not holding my breath.
I was interested to see a big increase in non-EU migration since 2014. This may be partly to do with students but does seem odd given the apparent obsession with reducing numbers.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Thinking through the politics a bit more - a no deal and its consequences which are directly linked to a government decision to renege on a deal it commended to the electorate is quite a sell. Some, maybe most, 2019 Tories will blame the EU. But Johnson/Cummings need them all to.
A deal is the best way of controlling migration - a central concern of Leavers.
Without it I could see Johnson being outflanked by *both* Starmer and Farage on migration next year. The Tory polling position would be diabolical.
I hope that's not what it takes to get rid of him but I'm not holding my breath.
The Tory polling position ***seems*** pretty solid. I think PB is overreacting to this development. Forget the law, it won't cut through (unlike the Cummings stuff, people could relate to that), the bigger question is where is this all heading with the EU. What consequences would this move have for the rest of the WA with the EU?
"Break laws - in a very limited and specific way" is going to cut through - as it's a wonderful line to use...
Honestly, if France, Holland &c decided to notify an intention to.full system test and run at border education on the post January 1st border regime, in a very limited and specific way, I think that would actually be helpful and friendly to the UK, so we can see what is coming and use the remaining time to act accordingly.
Thatcher would probably never have signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Irish Sea Border and gone straight to No Deal so it would not have been an issue anyway
That’s an amazing bit of hindsight knowing what someone who been dead for years would have done today, it’s as insightful of people being able to project what Corbyn would have done in current circumstances. Neither is possible you just don’t know and you never will.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
There were some really interesting posters on both sides and lots of fierce, verging on vitriolic debate. Now thread after thread is bashing Boris, Trump or Brexit. Shame.
So my COVID swab was negative, but it’s being redone incase it was a false negative. I’m also being tested for C. Diff., Norovirus, normal flu, and Glandular Fever. 🤷♂️
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
Has it - I think most of us want Brexit to occur so we can move on from the limbo phase and actually work out what our businesses need to do.
AIUI what is proposed is that Ministers will have the power to regulate trade from and to Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK. That power gives them the right to override the agreement with the EU if they choose to do so.
The context of this is that the EU gave NI a special status with additional rights of access to the Single Market through Eire. The price of exercising this power would be that the EU may choose to withdraw those privileges. How significant that is for NI will very much depend upon what deal the UK has with the EU. In the event of a no deal it might be very significant and unwind some of the Irish peace accords which are built around the whole of Ireland being a single economy.
What I am finding strange about this is not that the UK government insists upon the right to regulate intra UK trade but that they think it is necessary to give these powers to Ministers now. The UK Parliament could of course grant Ministers such powers at any point so why do it now when the WA contained an undertaking that we would not do such a thing?
I think it is reasonable to infer that this is a shot across the EU's bows, that they cannot rely upon us complying with the WA indefinitely if there is no deal. This is presumably why such attention has been drawn to it. It is not a breach of an international agreement (let alone law) at all at the moment, it is the power to breach it if Ministers are so minded. This is a power we always have. Lewis could have said this power will only be used in consultation with the EU and with their agreement. He chose not to.
I am not comfortable with this tactic but both the header and many of the comments strike me as a little bit hysterical.
Is this oddly-timed kerfuffle a dead cat to distract us from something else? Looking round, all I can see is the announcement of a new trial for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54076857
To be honest I do not think that is any reason for a dead cat bounce
So my COVID swab was negative, but it’s being redone incase it was a false negative. I’m also being tested for C. Diff., Norovirus, normal flu, and Glandular Fever. 🤷♂️
Wish me luck
Hope it is a good result, wishing you all the very best.
Thinking through the politics a bit more - a no deal and its consequences which are directly linked to a government decision to renege on a deal it commended to the electorate is quite a sell. Some, maybe most, 2019 Tories will blame the EU. But Johnson/Cummings need them all to.
A deal is the best way of controlling migration - a central concern of Leavers.
Without it I could see Johnson being outflanked by *both* Starmer and Farage on migration next year. The Tory polling position would be diabolical.
I hope that's not what it takes to get rid of him but I'm not holding my breath.
The Tory polling position ***seems*** pretty solid. I think PB is overreacting to this development. Forget the law, it won't cut through (unlike the Cummings stuff, people could relate to that), the bigger question is where is this all heading with the EU. What consequences would this move have for the rest of the WA with the EU?
Indeed, the Tories are on 40% in the latest Survation poll, are 40% of PB posters still voting for the Boris led Tory Party? Judging by recent days probably not but that just means PB now leans slightly more towards Starmer Labour and the LDs relative to the population as a whole
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
There were some really interesting posters on both sides and lots of fierce, verging on vitriolic debate. Now thread after thread is bashing Boris, Trump or Brexit. Shame.
Depends on time of day but people are bashing things or people that they perceive to be failures. Please enlighten us with why said people and actions are so great.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
What the feck are you talking about? The only people talking about "stop brexit" are people who were in favour of it. Everyone else has moved on to discussion about our future relationship with the EU and the world. In fact that is what this entire thread is about!
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
Has it - I think most of us want Brexit to occur so we can move on from the limbo phase and actually work out what our businesses need to do.
Yes please. Get it done, preferably with a deal.
If its going to be no deal, do it this year, tell everyone asap, and the politicians and voters responsible then can own it, good or bad.
Most "remoaners" accept we are leaving, want it done quickly, but want the consequences of Brexit to be owned by the Brexiteers, not blamed on convenient scapegoats like lawyers, EU, migrants, remoaners or whoever.
I think the last comment in the piece "and the governed should obey the government because?" Is really the key to what happens next.
The Cummings fiasco was a disaster because it showed that "Tories don't have to obey the rules that the rest of us do". Since that time the poularity of the government has become "unmoored" to put it mildly. So here is the same thing on a bigger scale, and one which will send the UK over the cliff edge.
14 months since Johnson became PM and I think that it is not just Tories who are thinking that he is, in something more than "a very limited and specific way", a total and utter catastrophe for party, government and country.
Smashing the economy of the country you profess to lead would not exactly be a positive historical legacy for the Tories, nor would driving the Scots to vote to leave the Union. Yet this No Deal nonsense and the increasingly chaotic shambolic response to Covid is the work of a government in a full on meltdown.
Even if Trump is gone, the men in grey suits struggling to deal with a post Johnson party will still be dealing with IDS, Jenkin and Baker, and they make noise even in their padded cells. The civil war of the strong and stable versus the deranged and disturbed could easily lead to the break up of the Tories within a year.
Only question will be if the UK breaks up first.
This shambles is more than merely damaging, disgraceful or dangerous, and what shocks most is how clearly it was predicted. Yet it is not the poor character of the PM that is the problem, it is the party that knew that Johnson was heavily flawed, but which elected him anyway.
So in "a very limited and specific way" increasing numbers are thinking that the Tories can go **** themselves, and quite possibly they may have already done so.
Thatcher would probably never have signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Irish Sea Border and gone straight to No Deal so it would not have been an issue anyway
Hardly. Thatcher was a massive free trade advocate. The notion that she would confuse the political body (the EU) with the trading body (the EEA) is absurd. She would have pulled out of the EU, rejoined EFTA and now be sticking it to the EU by driving EFTA to be a free trade paragon.
I believe in the rule of law and democracy. A fundamental principle in democracy though is that the law can be changed, legitimately, via Parliament. That no Parliament can bind it's successors. That if the public do not approve of the law they can elect a government that will legitimately change the law.
"International law" violates that principle since it attempts to set in stone issues that a democratically elected government may subsequently wish to change. If a democratically elected government wishes to change the law then it absolutely should be able to do so.
Domestic law should not be broken. International law though can be. International law is not as binding in my personal opinion as domestic law.
I cannot believe you are trying to defend the indefensible
Boris should resign over this - it is just wrong
He should have gone when he illegally prorogued parliament and at subsequent moments since. But lots of people have defended him on his ego fuelled path of destruction every step of way.
Always good to have a late convert.
Everyone knew what Johnson was like when the Tories chose him. Having elected the mendacious, lazy oaf just a year ago Tories bear direct responsibility for what happens as a result, and that includes @Big_G_NorthWales
It was the voters themselves who gave Boris the biggest Tory majority since Thatcher, not just Tory members and MPs.
I know leftwingers and diehard Remainers on here are still bitter Boris trounced Corbyn and won a big majority to get Brexit done which he has now delivered but tough
If Brexit has been got done, what's all the fuss about? The trouble is that despite campaigning for Brexit for 10, 20 or in some cases 30 years, no-one gave much thought to what should happen next. I fear many on the ERG headbanger wing will be disappointed when they find out where Boris is leading them.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I am not including anyone who wants a sensible deal like yourself but this forum is dominated by many who do not accept brexit and want it to fail or be reversed
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
I’ve not seen a single post about stopping brexit especially since it has happened, I’ve seen few arguing even for an extension, I’ve seen lots very keen to see a well managed and planned move into whatever comes next without destroying national credibility. But then people only see things as they want to.
So my COVID swab was negative, but it’s being redone incase it was a false negative. I’m also being tested for C. Diff., Norovirus, normal flu, and Glandular Fever. 🤷♂️
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
Problem is that the small of brain think the EEA is the EU...
If "stop Brexit" means "retain in practical terms the majority of rights that British citizens currently have when interacting with the Continent" then i would be surprised if there was more than 1% in the "stop Brexit camp".
The problem is that there are a significant number of people who think they are in the 99% but are actually going to find they are in the 1%. When they get their beloved no deal outcome.
... I think [Corbyn] may have seen it as an opportunity to hobble liberal democracy itself.
Unlike Boris and his hopes to eliminate judicial oversight, appoint unaccountable, non-elected people like Cummings to set policy and, of course, to ignore treaty obligations?
This all comes back to the irresponsibility of the 'borderless border' doublethink. We want to leave the EU to take back control of our borders. Well actually no we don't want to control our border actually we just want to leave - and we can do it with technology that the US/Canada, Sweden/Norway have so far failed on invent.
Worse than this it undermines the union between England and Scotland. If there is no need for a border in the Irish sea or in Ireland itself i.e between the UK and EU then why would there need to be a border between England and Scotland?
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I am not including anyone who wants a sensible deal like yourself but this forum is dominated by many who do not accept brexit and want it to fail or be reversed
Does that include people who favour a no deal outcome?
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I am not including anyone who wants a sensible deal like yourself but this forum is dominated by many who do not accept brexit and want it to fail or be reversed
But who is arguing to stop it, I haven't seen a person argue to stop it since we left - since it would be impossible.
I do think Brexit ultimately will be a failure, especially with Johnson running it. That's my opinion, you're welcome to others.
Labour should have backed EEA from the day the vote came in.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
There were some really interesting posters on both sides and lots of fierce, verging on vitriolic debate. Now thread after thread is bashing Boris, Trump or Brexit. Shame.
Depends on time of day but people are bashing things or people that they perceive to be failures. Please enlighten us with why said people and actions are so great.
I absolutely don't think Trump or Boris are great and can't think why you assume I do. I have zero interest in Trump, didn't vote Conservative and think the govt should have followed the Sweden project.
Re Brexit I'm very keen for a no deal as it would be the final nail in the Project Fear coffin.
Thatcher would probably never have signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Irish Sea Border and gone straight to No Deal so it would not have been an issue anyway
Hardly. Thatcher was a massive free trade advocate. The notion that she would confuse the political body (the EU) with the trading body (the EEA) is absurd. She would have pulled out of the EU, rejoined EFTA and now be sticking it to the EU by driving EFTA to be a free trade paragon.
The UK joining EFTA, adding weight to it and encouraging others to make the move across from the EU would have been a pretty good Brexit imo. I might have even voted for it ahead of remain. It would have kept the UK far more cohesive and less divided internally, regardless of our outside relationships.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
Problem is that the small of brain think the EEA is the EU...
As far as the Single Market is concerned, which is what the bulk of the debate during the Referendum was about, it absolutely is that is why.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
There were some really interesting posters on both sides and lots of fierce, verging on vitriolic debate. Now thread after thread is bashing Boris, Trump or Brexit. Shame.
Depends on time of day but people are bashing things or people that they perceive to be failures. Please enlighten us with why said people and actions are so great.
I absolutely don't think Trump or Boris are great and can't think why you assume I do. I have zero interest in Trump, didn't vote Conservative and think the govt should have followed the Sweden project.
Re Brexit I'm very keen for a no deal as it would be the final nail in the Project Fear coffin.
You seem to be very confident of that, but it will all be hidden behind covid so one will never know
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
Problem is that the small of brain think the EEA is the EU...
It's forrin... doan like forrin. It's not British....
AIUI what is proposed is that Ministers will have the power to regulate trade from and to Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK. That power gives them the right to override the agreement with the EU if they choose to do so.
The context of this is that the EU gave NI a special status with additional rights of access to the Single Market through Eire. The price of exercising this power would be that the EU may choose to withdraw those privileges. How significant that is for NI will very much depend upon what deal the UK has with the EU. In the event of a no deal it might be very significant and unwind some of the Irish peace accords which are built around the whole of Ireland being a single economy.
What I am finding strange about this is not that the UK government insists upon the right to regulate intra UK trade but that they think it is necessary to give these powers to Ministers now. The UK Parliament could of course grant Ministers such powers at any point so why do it now when the WA contained an undertaking that we would not do such a thing?
I think it is reasonable to infer that this is a shot across the EU's bows, that they cannot rely upon us complying with the WA indefinitely if there is no deal. This is presumably why such attention has been drawn to it. It is not a breach of an international agreement (let alone law) at all at the moment, it is the power to breach it if Ministers are so minded. This is a power we always have. Lewis could have said this power will only be used in consultation with the EU and with their agreement. He chose not to.
I am not comfortable with this tactic but both the header and many of the comments strike me as a little bit hysterical.
Heads of the civil service legal department don’t just resign on a whim.
Thatcher would probably never have signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Irish Sea Border and gone straight to No Deal so it would not have been an issue anyway
Hardly. Thatcher was a massive free trade advocate. The notion that she would confuse the political body (the EU) with the trading body (the EEA) is absurd. She would have pulled out of the EU, rejoined EFTA and now be sticking it to the EU by driving EFTA to be a free trade paragon.
The UK joining EFTA, adding weight to it and encouraging others to make the move across from the EU would have been a pretty good Brexit imo. I might have even voted for it ahead of remain. It would have kept the UK far more cohesive and less divided internally, regardless of our outside relationships.
Me too.
I believe 60% of the country would accept EEA or EFTA
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
There were some really interesting posters on both sides and lots of fierce, verging on vitriolic debate. Now thread after thread is bashing Boris, Trump or Brexit. Shame.
Depends on time of day but people are bashing things or people that they perceive to be failures. Please enlighten us with why said people and actions are so great.
I absolutely don't think Trump or Boris are great and can't think why you assume I do. I have zero interest in Trump, didn't vote Conservative and think the govt should have followed the Sweden project.
Re Brexit I'm very keen for a no deal as it would be the final nail in the Project Fear coffin.
You seem to be very confident of that, but it will all be hidden behind covid so one will never know
Thatcher would probably never have signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Irish Sea Border and gone straight to No Deal so it would not have been an issue anyway
Hardly. Thatcher was a massive free trade advocate. The notion that she would confuse the political body (the EU) with the trading body (the EEA) is absurd. She would have pulled out of the EU, rejoined EFTA and now be sticking it to the EU by driving EFTA to be a free trade paragon.
So she would still have not signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the EU and gone to No Deal, thanks for confirming.
She may have tried a Swiss style EFTA membership afterwards but would not have stayed in the EEA either as that would obviously have required free movement from Eastern Europe and she would have respected the Brexit result on that and introduced a points system instead
Unless you are passionate nationalist or like Trumpian demagoguery, I can’t see why people support this government. Incompetent, dishonest, ineffective, ideological and with little regard for the law.
It is interesting that some defend Boris while condemning Trump for similar behaviour. The football fan theory of politics.
I think we can safely say that had Corbyn been elected and proceeded to break international law and his own promises, and stuff government with dodgy advisors and an army of his cronies, PB’s Tory fancrowd might not have been so relaxed about it all.
I would not be a fan of Corbyn even had he stayed within international law so the point is moot.
And if Corbyn had agreed an international treaty embedding his politics then if we defeated him in the ballot box I would be 100% ok with tearing that treaty up.
But in this case Johnson is tearing up the treaty on the basis of which he won the election.
He's not tearing it up, he's tweaking it. C'est la vie.
“bob”, “duck” and “weave”. Now “tweak”.
Do you even understand what Mrs Thatcher is saying in that quote?
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I am not including anyone who wants a sensible deal like yourself but this forum is dominated by many who do not accept brexit and want it to fail or be reversed
Who?
I certainly want it to be a raging success as I run a business and need to make money. I dont think it will be, and if it isnt I want the people in charge to be seen as responsible for it. Is that not perfectly reasonable?
I believe in the rule of law and democracy. A fundamental principle in democracy though is that the law can be changed, legitimately, via Parliament. That no Parliament can bind it's successors. That if the public do not approve of the law they can elect a government that will legitimately change the law.
"International law" violates that principle since it attempts to set in stone issues that a democratically elected government may subsequently wish to change. If a democratically elected government wishes to change the law then it absolutely should be able to do so.
Domestic law should not be broken. International law though can be. International law is not as binding in my personal opinion as domestic law.
I cannot believe you are trying to defend the indefensible
Boris should resign over this - it is just wrong
He should have gone when he illegally prorogued parliament and at subsequent moments since. But lots of people have defended him on his ego fuelled path of destruction every step of way.
Always good to have a late convert.
Everyone knew what Johnson was like when the Tories chose him. Having elected the mendacious, lazy oaf just a year ago Tories bear direct responsibility for what happens as a result, and that includes @Big_G_NorthWales
That is political nonsense
Apply that to Corbyn and the labour party and in so doing attack all those who kept him in place including many moderates
Why not say “sorry, I was wrong”?
I am not wrong in wanting brexit concluded and Boris has been unequivocal in leaving and still has 40% support
He went too far for me yesterday and he should go, but it does not alter the fact we have to leave the EU
You could have had a legal, Brexit under May. Boris blocked that. You then handed him the keys to number 10 and chaos has reigned ever since. We are now a basket case.
Cheers! Nice work. 10/10.
Cut it out Jonathan.
May`s deal was blocked, chiefly, by the Labour Party. Let`s not re-write history.
The government was elected with a majority, the onus is on it not the opposition to pass legislation. The fact May threw away her majority and then couldn’t command her party is what blocked Brexit.
She tried to work with Labour at the very end when it was far too late. But blaming the opposition is disingenuous. The oppositions constitutional job is to oppose, not mitigate the fact Boris defied his own party in an attempt to gain the premiership for himself.
May ran Brexit in a party way. If she had established a multiparty, and multi cameral approach, we would be in a much better position. She was too tribal for that. Like @Big_G_NorthWales she would support the blues no matter which oaf is in charge, after all she even agreed to support the Oven-Ready/Half-baked Deal that we got.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I am not including anyone who wants a sensible deal like yourself but this forum is dominated by many who do not accept brexit and want it to fail or be reversed
There are probably some who want it to fail, but also many who look at the situation developing and forsee it failing whether they like it or not.
(That's part of the strange postmodern Johnson view of politics; confusing what you want to happen, what should happen and what can happen.)
I suspect a large majority accept that Brexit has happened and will continue to happen. A small majority (according to YouGov) think it's a mistake, and a larger majority (according to YouGov) think the government is making an absolute Horlicks of the situation.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I am not including anyone who wants a sensible deal like yourself but this forum is dominated by many who do not accept brexit and want it to fail or be reversed
There are probably some who want it to fail, but also many who look at the situation developing and forsee it failing whether they like it or not.
(That's part of the strange postmodern Johnson view of politics; confusing what you want to happen, what should happen and what can happen.)
I suspect a large majority accept that Brexit has happened and will continue to happen. A small majority (according to YouGov) think it's a mistake, and a larger majority (according to YouGov) think the government is making an absolute Horlicks of the situation.
Unless you are passionate nationalist or like Trumpian demagoguery, I can’t see why people support this government. Incompetent, dishonest, ineffective, ideological and with little regard for the law.
It is interesting that some defend Boris while condemning Trump for similar behaviour. The football fan theory of politics.
I think we can safely say that had Corbyn been elected and proceeded to break international law and his own promises, and stuff government with dodgy advisors and an army of his cronies, PB’s Tory fancrowd might not have been so relaxed about it all.
I would not be a fan of Corbyn even had he stayed within international law so the point is moot.
And if Corbyn had agreed an international treaty embedding his politics then if we defeated him in the ballot box I would be 100% ok with tearing that treaty up.
But in this case Johnson is tearing up the treaty on the basis of which he won the election.
He's not tearing it up, he's tweaking it. C'est la vie.
“bob”, “duck” and “weave”. Now “tweak”.
Do you even understand what Mrs Thatcher is saying in that quote?
I do.
I don't agree with it to apply 100% of the time.
Even the great lady can be wrong at times.
The ability to change our law democratically is to me a fundamental and inviolable principle. If that means overriding international law then to avoid any doubt whatsoever if democracy and international law clash then I choose democracy. Parliament is sovereign and Parliament sets the law.
I try not to criticise other posters and take Casino's point that it's counter-productive anyway. But there is a general point that may give some pause. What we are seeing is an anarcho-conservative government, in the tradition of American alt-right libertarians. That is quite different from traditional Conservatism, in the same way that I accept Corbynism is quite different from tradityional socvial democracy. I think it is reasonable to enquire whether Conswervatives feel they voted for this. If they did, fine.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I am not including anyone who wants a sensible deal like yourself but this forum is dominated by many who do not accept brexit and want it to fail or be reversed
That's tosh every bit as insulting as some of the comments you object to, Big_G.
Observing the mess a government with a majority of 80 is making of things has nothing to do with 'not accepting' Brexit (those who dislike it seem to be more aware it has already happened than those who supported it), or trying to 'reverse' it. And remarking on the mess is not the same thing as 'wanting it to fail' - as if that would make any difference to the outcome anyway.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I am not including anyone who wants a sensible deal like yourself but this forum is dominated by many who do not accept brexit and want it to fail or be reversed
There are probably some who want it to fail, but also many who look at the situation developing and forsee it failing whether they like it or not.
(That's part of the strange postmodern Johnson view of politics; confusing what you want to happen, what should happen and what can happen.)
I suspect a large majority accept that Brexit has happened and will continue to happen. A small majority (according to YouGov) think it's a mistake, and a larger majority (according to YouGov) think the government is making an absolute Horlicks of the situation.
There's no contradiction there.
I agree, and it wouldn't take much for them to reduce the majority that thinks it's a horlicks back to a minority, but it would be at the expense of the "no surrender to the EU" and "foreigners are bad" segments of the Tory party. That's evidently more important to a Conservative government than majority support in the country.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I am not including anyone who wants a sensible deal like yourself but this forum is dominated by many who do not accept brexit and want it to fail or be reversed
There are probably some who want it to fail, but also many who look at the situation developing and forsee it failing whether they like it or not.
(That's part of the strange postmodern Johnson view of politics; confusing what you want to happen, what should happen and what can happen.)
I suspect a large majority accept that Brexit has happened and will continue to happen. A small majority (according to YouGov) think it's a mistake, and a larger majority (according to YouGov) think the government is making an absolute Horlicks of the situation.
There's no contradiction there.
You omit the largest majority, made up of Leavers and Remainers, who accept the result and are sick of the word Brexit.
Just leave Boris and we can get on with our lives.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
There were some really interesting posters on both sides and lots of fierce, verging on vitriolic debate. Now thread after thread is bashing Boris, Trump or Brexit. Shame.
Depends on time of day but people are bashing things or people that they perceive to be failures. Please enlighten us with why said people and actions are so great.
I absolutely don't think Trump or Boris are great and can't think why you assume I do. I have zero interest in Trump, didn't vote Conservative and think the govt should have followed the Sweden project.
Re Brexit I'm very keen for a no deal as it would be the final nail in the Project Fear coffin.
You seem to be very confident of that, but it will all be hidden behind covid so one will never know
I've no idea what that means
Any negative economic data for the next two years will be due to covid, it will never be officially attributed to a no deal end of transition. It’s superb cover for the loons to do what they want.
Thinking through the politics a bit more - a no deal and its consequences which are directly linked to a government decision to renege on a deal it commended to the electorate is quite a sell. Some, maybe most, 2019 Tories will blame the EU. But Johnson/Cummings need them all to.
A deal is the best way of controlling migration - a central concern of Leavers.
Without it I could see Johnson being outflanked by *both* Starmer and Farage on migration next year. The Tory polling position would be diabolical.
I hope that's not what it takes to get rid of him but I'm not holding my breath.
The Tory polling position ***seems*** pretty solid. I think PB is overreacting to this development. Forget the law, it won't cut through (unlike the Cummings stuff, people could relate to that), the bigger question is where is this all heading with the EU. What consequences would this move have for the rest of the WA with the EU?
"Break laws - in a very limited and specific way" is going to cut through - as it's a wonderful line to use...
Yes, it's a gift. You now have TWO lines of defence for (say) a gathering of 12 people following the law change.
First one (and still the strongest) -
"Yes, ok, 12 is more than 6, but in deciding upon 12 I was acting in what I judged to be the best interests of me and my family. This is a higher principle than mere legality and dictates that I escape all censure. Indeed I should be praised."
Now backed up by -
"Of course 12 is more than 6, it's double in fact, such is obvious, so I have broken the law. But - and like Kim K's it's a massive one - I have only broken the law in a specific and limited way, namely by 6. This, as per the very highest precedent, is my inalienable right."
(NB: This post does not count as me getting involved in discussion on this latest nonsense from "Boris" & Co. As stated yesterday, I will not be doing so because I see through it. It's tedious 'feed the fish' PR, designed to fire up the Brexit culture wars again and it impacts nothing of importance. WTO remains a fictional bogeyman. A border in Ireland remains unthinkable. Thus a deal agreeing close alignment with the EU remains a certainty. People, please do not be distracted by all this guff. It's what the creators of it want.)
Thatcher would probably never have signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Irish Sea Border and gone straight to No Deal so it would not have been an issue anyway
Hardly. Thatcher was a massive free trade advocate. The notion that she would confuse the political body (the EU) with the trading body (the EEA) is absurd. She would have pulled out of the EU, rejoined EFTA and now be sticking it to the EU by driving EFTA to be a free trade paragon.
So she would still have not signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the EU and gone to No Deal, thanks for confirming.
She may have tried a Swiss style EFTA membership afterwards but would not have stayed in the EEA either as that would obviously have required free movement from Eastern Europe and she would have respected the Brexit result on that and introduced a points system instead
The Conservative Party in the days of Thatcher was a completely different animal. I disagreed with most of what she tried to do, but at least the Conservative Party then was honest and trustworthy. As one senior Conservative MP was reported to have said somewhere on this thread, the Conservative party is law-abiding or it is nothing.
Under present management, the Conservative Party is nothing.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
It is true that it has become a stop brexit echo chamber and does not reflect the wider view in the general public
Who is calling to stop Brexit?
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
I am not including anyone who wants a sensible deal like yourself but this forum is dominated by many who do not accept brexit and want it to fail or be reversed
There are probably some who want it to fail, but also many who look at the situation developing and forsee it failing whether they like it or not.
(That's part of the strange postmodern Johnson view of politics; confusing what you want to happen, what should happen and what can happen.)
I suspect a large majority accept that Brexit has happened and will continue to happen. A small majority (according to YouGov) think it's a mistake, and a larger majority (according to YouGov) think the government is making an absolute Horlicks of the situation.
There's no contradiction there.
You omit the largest majority, made up of Leavers and Remainers, who accept the result and are sick of the word Brexit.
Just leave Boris and we can get on with our lives.
I try not to criticise other posters and take Casino's point that it's counter-productive anyway. But there is a general point that may give some pause. What we are seeing is an anarcho-conservative government, in the tradition of American alt-right libertarians. That is quite different from traditional Conservatism, in the same way that I accept Corbynism is quite different from tradityional socvial democracy. I think it is reasonable to enquire whether Conswervatives feel they voted for this. If they did, fine.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
There were some really interesting posters on both sides and lots of fierce, verging on vitriolic debate. Now thread after thread is bashing Boris, Trump or Brexit. Shame.
Depends on time of day but people are bashing things or people that they perceive to be failures. Please enlighten us with why said people and actions are so great.
I absolutely don't think Trump or Boris are great and can't think why you assume I do. I have zero interest in Trump, didn't vote Conservative and think the govt should have followed the Sweden project.
Re Brexit I'm very keen for a no deal as it would be the final nail in the Project Fear coffin.
You seem to be very confident of that, but it will all be hidden behind covid so one will never know
I've no idea what that means
Any negative economic data for the next two years will be due to covid, it will never be officially attributed to a no deal end of transition. It’s superb cover for the loons to do what they want.
I'm afraid that's another conversation. The vast majority, including on here, are oblivious to our financial situation.
Furlough ends next month, Oct and Nov are the two worst months for pubs and restaurants, 4m unemployed by January.
Nothing at all to do with Brexit, its global stupidity
The numbers on here who can even comprehend why millions of ordinary Americans vote for Donald Trump can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
My experience is that even in liberal Manhattan Americans do not look at their president the way CNN and MSNBC look at him. He is just another President.
They don't really think he's particularly racist or sexist either/. How could he be when me as an immigrant/black blue collar worker just got a decent raise, and me as a female investment banker just got a promotion?
Also the president is the titular head of state as well as the political head, and Americans are wary of criticising him in the same way we would be wary of criticising the Queen.
Point this stuff out and all you get is a barrage of abuse, with one poster after another waiting to pour scorn on what are quite innocent observations.
The numbers on here who can even comprehend why millions of ordinary Americans vote for Donald Trump can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
My experience is that even in liberal Manhattan Americans do not look at their president the way CNN and MSNBC look at him. He is just another President.
They don't really think he's particularly racist or sexist either/. How could he be when me as an immigrant/black blue collar worker just got a decent raise, and me as a female investment banker just got a promotion?
Also the president is the titular head of state as well as the political head, and Americans are wary of criticising him in the same way we would be wary of criticising the Queen.
Point this stuff out and all you get is a barrage of abuse, with one poster after another waiting to pour scorn on what are quite innocent observations.
1. The Withdrawal Act is a piece of domestic legislation. 2. The Court of Appeal has already ruled that the provisions of the Ministerial Code relating to upholding the rule of law include international law.
Thatcher would probably never have signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Irish Sea Border and gone straight to No Deal so it would not have been an issue anyway
Hardly. Thatcher was a massive free trade advocate. The notion that she would confuse the political body (the EU) with the trading body (the EEA) is absurd. She would have pulled out of the EU, rejoined EFTA and now be sticking it to the EU by driving EFTA to be a free trade paragon.
The UK joining EFTA, adding weight to it and encouraging others to make the move across from the EU would have been a pretty good Brexit imo. I might have even voted for it ahead of remain. It would have kept the UK far more cohesive and less divided internally, regardless of our outside relationships.
Me too.
I believe 60% of the country would accept EEA or EFTA
I don't think it now tenable though. The Brexiteers won't accept either Single Market or Customs Union. Not at least until we experience the sunlight uplands/frozen tundra of WTO for a few years.
Personally, I dont think WTO so bad. Our Metroplitan arts and knowledge sectors will continue to thrive, while there will be major structural changes in manufacturing, agriculture and food. Service industries like my own will continue largely unaffected. Immigration will be affected more by Covid-19 than anything else, but more third world.
I am fairly phlegmatic about the economic aspects. It is the devaluation of our cultural, and political relationships with longstanding friends and partners that bothers me.
1. The Withdrawal Act is a piece of domestic legislation. 2. The Court of Appeal has already ruled that the provisions of the Ministerial Code relating to upholding the rule of law include international law.
There seems to be something of a war between both govermental lawyers and the civil service and the government.
AIUI what is proposed is that Ministers will have the power to regulate trade from and to Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK. That power gives them the right to override the agreement with the EU if they choose to do so.
The context of this is that the EU gave NI a special status with additional rights of access to the Single Market through Eire. The price of exercising this power would be that the EU may choose to withdraw those privileges. How significant that is for NI will very much depend upon what deal the UK has with the EU. In the event of a no deal it might be very significant and unwind some of the Irish peace accords which are built around the whole of Ireland being a single economy.
What I am finding strange about this is not that the UK government insists upon the right to regulate intra UK trade but that they think it is necessary to give these powers to Ministers now. The UK Parliament could of course grant Ministers such powers at any point so why do it now when the WA contained an undertaking that we would not do such a thing?
I think it is reasonable to infer that this is a shot across the EU's bows, that they cannot rely upon us complying with the WA indefinitely if there is no deal. This is presumably why such attention has been drawn to it. It is not a breach of an international agreement (let alone law) at all at the moment, it is the power to breach it if Ministers are so minded. This is a power we always have. Lewis could have said this power will only be used in consultation with the EU and with their agreement. He chose not to.
I am not comfortable with this tactic but both the header and many of the comments strike me as a little bit hysterical.
You think Margaret Thatcher’s quote about the importance of the rule of law is a “bit hysterical”?
1. The Withdrawal Act is a piece of domestic legislation. 2. The Court of Appeal has already ruled that the provisions of the Ministerial Code relating to upholding the rule of law include international law.
Does the Ministerial Code apply to Parliament voting to change the law? Any time Parliament does this by definition surely it is changing the law, so often taking something that was illegal and legalising it. Otherwise the law could not change.
If Ministers were seeking to unilaterally change the law without Parliamentary approval then that would be absolutely unacceptable but if Parliament votes to allow it then that is democracy.
Thatcher would probably never have signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Irish Sea Border and gone straight to No Deal so it would not have been an issue anyway
Hardly. Thatcher was a massive free trade advocate. The notion that she would confuse the political body (the EU) with the trading body (the EEA) is absurd. She would have pulled out of the EU, rejoined EFTA and now be sticking it to the EU by driving EFTA to be a free trade paragon.
The UK joining EFTA, adding weight to it and encouraging others to make the move across from the EU would have been a pretty good Brexit imo. I might have even voted for it ahead of remain. It would have kept the UK far more cohesive and less divided internally, regardless of our outside relationships.
Me too.
I believe 60% of the country would accept EEA or EFTA
I don't think it now tenable though. The Brexiteers won't accept either Single Market or Customs Union. Not at least until we experience the sunlight uplands/frozen tundra of WTO for a few years.
Personally, I dont think WTO so bad. Our Metroplitan arts and knowledge sectors will continue to thrive, while there will be major structural changes in manufacturing, agriculture and food. Service industries like my own will continue largely unaffected. Immigration will be affected more by Covid-19 than anything else, but more third world.
I am fairly phlegmatic about the economic aspects. It is the devaluation of our cultural, and political relationships with longstanding friends and partners that bothers me.
I'm curious, who do we have longstanding political relationships with?
1. The Withdrawal Act is a piece of domestic legislation. 2. The Court of Appeal has already ruled that the provisions of the Ministerial Code relating to upholding the rule of law include international law.
Does the Ministerial Code apply to Parliament voting to change the law? Any time Parliament does this by definition surely it is changing the law, so often taking something that was illegal and legalising it. Otherwise the law could not change.
If Ministers were seeking to unilaterally change the law without Parliamentary approval then that would be absolutely unacceptable but if Parliament votes to allow it then that is democracy.
If Parliament votes to remove the need for elections, is that democracy?
I was wondering if any politician keeps a diary these days, because 2020 is going to be a fascinating year for biographers of Boris Johnson.
CV19 shifted the goal posts within 2 months of taking office, illness may also have hamstrung his judgement, but are we getting to a point when the men and women in gray suits act on the advice of those in white coats to encourage Boris to step down before he damages the country?
The numbers on here who can even comprehend why millions of ordinary Americans vote for Donald Trump can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
My experience is that even in liberal Manhattan Americans do not look at their president the way CNN and MSNBC look at him. He is just another President.
They don't really think he's particularly racist or sexist either/. How could he be when me as an immigrant/black blue collar worker just got a decent raise, and me as a female investment banker just got a promotion?
Also the president is the titular head of state as well as the political head, and Americans are wary of criticising him in the same way we would be wary of criticising the Queen.
Point this stuff out and all you get is a barrage of abuse, with one poster after another waiting to pour scorn on what are quite innocent observations.
But he is racist and he is sexist. Objectively.
Where's the evidence President Trump stopped black people progressing and prospering, or plans for women to return to the kitchen?
AIUI what is proposed is that Ministers will have the power to regulate trade from and to Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK. That power gives them the right to override the agreement with the EU if they choose to do so.
The context of this is that the EU gave NI a special status with additional rights of access to the Single Market through Eire. The price of exercising this power would be that the EU may choose to withdraw those privileges. How significant that is for NI will very much depend upon what deal the UK has with the EU. In the event of a no deal it might be very significant and unwind some of the Irish peace accords which are built around the whole of Ireland being a single economy.
What I am finding strange about this is not that the UK government insists upon the right to regulate intra UK trade but that they think it is necessary to give these powers to Ministers now. The UK Parliament could of course grant Ministers such powers at any point so why do it now when the WA contained an undertaking that we would not do such a thing?
I think it is reasonable to infer that this is a shot across the EU's bows, that they cannot rely upon us complying with the WA indefinitely if there is no deal. This is presumably why such attention has been drawn to it. It is not a breach of an international agreement (let alone law) at all at the moment, it is the power to breach it if Ministers are so minded. This is a power we always have. Lewis could have said this power will only be used in consultation with the EU and with their agreement. He chose not to.
I am not comfortable with this tactic but both the header and many of the comments strike me as a little bit hysterical.
You think Margaret Thatcher’s quote about the importance of the rule of law is a “bit hysterical”?
1. The Withdrawal Act is a piece of domestic legislation. 2. The Court of Appeal has already ruled that the provisions of the Ministerial Code relating to upholding the rule of law include international law.
Does the Ministerial Code apply to Parliament voting to change the law? Any time Parliament does this by definition surely it is changing the law, so often taking something that was illegal and legalising it. Otherwise the law could not change.
If Ministers were seeking to unilaterally change the law without Parliamentary approval then that would be absolutely unacceptable but if Parliament votes to allow it then that is democracy.
If Parliament votes to remove the need for elections, is that democracy?
Parliament has that power.
I would not support that, outside of exceptional circumstances (eg pushing them back by a year due to COVID19 or WWII).
Thatcher would probably never have signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Irish Sea Border and gone straight to No Deal so it would not have been an issue anyway
Hardly. Thatcher was a massive free trade advocate. The notion that she would confuse the political body (the EU) with the trading body (the EEA) is absurd. She would have pulled out of the EU, rejoined EFTA and now be sticking it to the EU by driving EFTA to be a free trade paragon.
The UK joining EFTA, adding weight to it and encouraging others to make the move across from the EU would have been a pretty good Brexit imo. I might have even voted for it ahead of remain. It would have kept the UK far more cohesive and less divided internally, regardless of our outside relationships.
Me too.
I believe 60% of the country would accept EEA or EFTA
I don't think it now tenable though. The Brexiteers won't accept either Single Market or Customs Union. Not at least until we experience the sunlight uplands/frozen tundra of WTO for a few years.
Personally, I dont think WTO so bad. Our Metroplitan arts and knowledge sectors will continue to thrive, while there will be major structural changes in manufacturing, agriculture and food. Service industries like my own will continue largely unaffected. Immigration will be affected more by Covid-19 than anything else, but more third world.
I am fairly phlegmatic about the economic aspects. It is the devaluation of our cultural, and political relationships with longstanding friends and partners that bothers me.
I'm curious, who do we have longstanding political relationships with?
1. The Withdrawal Act is a piece of domestic legislation. 2. The Court of Appeal has already ruled that the provisions of the Ministerial Code relating to upholding the rule of law include international law.
Does the Ministerial Code apply to Parliament voting to change the law? Any time Parliament does this by definition surely it is changing the law, so often taking something that was illegal and legalising it. Otherwise the law could not change.
If Ministers were seeking to unilaterally change the law without Parliamentary approval then that would be absolutely unacceptable but if Parliament votes to allow it then that is democracy.
If Parliament votes to remove the need for elections, is that democracy?
Parliament has that power.
I would not support that, outside of exceptional circumstances (eg pushing them back by a year due to COVID19 or WWII).
Some posters on here and on twitter really are having a hard time grasping the fact that the supremacy of parliament has been restored by brexit.
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
There were some really interesting posters on both sides and lots of fierce, verging on vitriolic debate. Now thread after thread is bashing Boris, Trump or Brexit. Shame.
Depends on time of day but people are bashing things or people that they perceive to be failures. Please enlighten us with why said people and actions are so great.
I absolutely don't think Trump or Boris are great and can't think why you assume I do. I have zero interest in Trump, didn't vote Conservative and think the govt should have followed the Sweden project.
Re Brexit I'm very keen for a no deal as it would be the final nail in the Project Fear coffin.
You seem to be very confident of that, but it will all be hidden behind covid so one will never know
I've no idea what that means
Any negative economic data for the next two years will be due to covid, it will never be officially attributed to a no deal end of transition. It’s superb cover for the loons to do what they want.
I'm afraid that's another conversation. The vast majority, including on here, are oblivious to our financial situation.
Furlough ends next month, Oct and Nov are the two worst months for pubs and restaurants, 4m unemployed by January.
Nothing at all to do with Brexit, its global stupidity
I do not think we are oblivious to it, I think we expect a big increase in the unemployed. As they say around here it is 100% nailed on...
I used to lurk on here during the EU referendum, it was interesting to read a balanced set of views, but having joined it seems most Brexiteers have gone and its developed into a stop Brexit echo chamber.
Not a problem but its very dull and not a coincidence that numbers have fallen
Exactly right.
There were some really interesting posters on both sides and lots of fierce, verging on vitriolic debate. Now thread after thread is bashing Boris, Trump or Brexit. Shame.
Write one in favour of any of those or all three, if you want to widen the debate.
Thatcher would probably never have signed the Withdrawal Agreement with the Irish Sea Border and gone straight to No Deal so it would not have been an issue anyway
Hardly. Thatcher was a massive free trade advocate. The notion that she would confuse the political body (the EU) with the trading body (the EEA) is absurd. She would have pulled out of the EU, rejoined EFTA and now be sticking it to the EU by driving EFTA to be a free trade paragon.
The UK joining EFTA, adding weight to it and encouraging others to make the move across from the EU would have been a pretty good Brexit imo. I might have even voted for it ahead of remain. It would have kept the UK far more cohesive and less divided internally, regardless of our outside relationships.
Me too.
I believe 60% of the country would accept EEA or EFTA
I don't think it now tenable though. The Brexiteers won't accept either Single Market or Customs Union. Not at least until we experience the sunlight uplands/frozen tundra of WTO for a few years.
Personally, I dont think WTO so bad. Our Metroplitan arts and knowledge sectors will continue to thrive, while there will be major structural changes in manufacturing, agriculture and food. Service industries like my own will continue largely unaffected. Immigration will be affected more by Covid-19 than anything else, but more third world.
I am fairly phlegmatic about the economic aspects. It is the devaluation of our cultural, and political relationships with longstanding friends and partners that bothers me.
I'm curious, who do we have longstanding political relationships with?
The rest of our continent.
Excuse me but that is errant nonsense and you know it
The numbers on here who can even comprehend why millions of ordinary Americans vote for Donald Trump can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
My experience is that even in liberal Manhattan Americans do not look at their president the way CNN and MSNBC look at him. He is just another President.
They don't really think he's particularly racist or sexist either/. How could he be when me as an immigrant/black blue collar worker just got a decent raise, and me as a female investment banker just got a promotion?
Also the president is the titular head of state as well as the political head, and Americans are wary of criticising him in the same way we would be wary of criticising the Queen.
Point this stuff out and all you get is a barrage of abuse, with one poster after another waiting to pour scorn on what are quite innocent observations.
But he is racist and he is sexist. Objectively.
Where's the evidence President Trump stopped black people progressing and prospering, or plans for women to return to the kitchen?
Whether or not President Trump personally “stopped black people progressing and prospering” or “plans for women to return to the kitchen” (whatever that means) has no bearing on whether he is sexist or racist or not.
Stock market up today despite vaccine news, new covid restrictions, government advocating ripping up treaties and the Nasdaq dropping 10% in 3 trading days.
1. The Withdrawal Act is a piece of domestic legislation. 2. The Court of Appeal has already ruled that the provisions of the Ministerial Code relating to upholding the rule of law include international law.
Does the Ministerial Code apply to Parliament voting to change the law? Any time Parliament does this by definition surely it is changing the law, so often taking something that was illegal and legalising it. Otherwise the law could not change.
If Ministers were seeking to unilaterally change the law without Parliamentary approval then that would be absolutely unacceptable but if Parliament votes to allow it then that is democracy.
If Parliament votes to remove the need for elections, is that democracy?
Parliament has that power.
I would not support that, outside of exceptional circumstances (eg pushing them back by a year due to COVID19 or WWII).
You didn’t answer the question. Is that democracy?
Comments
What has happened is that those who were originally remainers, but accepted Brexit as needing to happen as a consequence of the referendum vote, are no longer in any need to ally with referendum Brexiters, as the referendum mandate has now been fulfilled.
Everything now is about the terms of the future relationship(s)
I know leftwingers and diehard Remainers on here are still bitter Boris trounced Corbyn and won a big majority to get Brexit done which he has now delivered but tough
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54076857
In future "we can pick and choose which laws to obey" will be known as the Cummings' Doctrine.
Books will be written about it...
Wish me luck
We can't stop it, we left in January.
Or are you conflating those of us who think Brexit is a bad idea with those that wanted to stop it in the past?
I want EEA, that is not calling for us to stop Brexit
If its going to be no deal, do it this year, tell everyone asap, and the politicians and voters responsible then can own it, good or bad.
Most "remoaners" accept we are leaving, want it done quickly, but want the consequences of Brexit to be owned by the Brexiteers, not blamed on convenient scapegoats like lawyers, EU, migrants, remoaners or whoever.
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1303579539918987264?s=20
The Cummings fiasco was a disaster because it showed that "Tories don't have to obey the rules that the rest of us do". Since that time the poularity of the government has become "unmoored" to put it mildly. So here is the same thing on a bigger scale, and one which will send the UK over the cliff edge.
14 months since Johnson became PM and I think that it is not just Tories who are thinking that he is, in something more than "a very limited and specific way", a total and utter catastrophe for party, government and country.
Smashing the economy of the country you profess to lead would not exactly be a positive historical legacy for the Tories, nor would driving the Scots to vote to leave the Union. Yet this No Deal nonsense and the increasingly chaotic shambolic response to Covid is the work of a government in a full on meltdown.
Even if Trump is gone, the men in grey suits struggling to deal with a post Johnson party will still be dealing with IDS, Jenkin and Baker, and they make noise even in their padded cells. The civil war of the strong and stable versus the deranged and disturbed could easily lead to the break up of the Tories within a year.
Only question will be if the UK breaks up first.
This shambles is more than merely damaging, disgraceful or dangerous, and what shocks most is how clearly it was predicted. Yet it is not the poor character of the PM that is the problem, it is the party that knew that Johnson was heavily flawed, but which elected him anyway.
So in "a very limited and specific way" increasing numbers are thinking that the Tories can go **** themselves, and quite possibly they may have already done so.
The problem is that there are a significant number of people who think they are in the 99% but are actually going to find they are in the 1%. When they get their beloved no deal outcome.
Hardly a model of the ideal democratic leader...
Worse than this it undermines the union between England and Scotland. If there is no need for a border in the Irish sea or in Ireland itself i.e between the UK and EU then why would there need to be a border between England and Scotland?
I do think Brexit ultimately will be a failure, especially with Johnson running it. That's my opinion, you're welcome to others.
Labour should have backed EEA from the day the vote came in.
Re Brexit I'm very keen for a no deal as it would be the final nail in the Project Fear coffin.
I believe 60% of the country would accept EEA or EFTA
She may have tried a Swiss style EFTA membership afterwards but would not have stayed in the EEA either as that would obviously have required free movement from Eastern Europe and she would have respected the Brexit result on that and introduced a points system instead
Do you even understand what Mrs Thatcher is saying in that quote?
I certainly want it to be a raging success as I run a business and need to make money. I dont think it will be, and if it isnt I want the people in charge to be seen as responsible for it. Is that not perfectly reasonable?
(That's part of the strange postmodern Johnson view of politics; confusing what you want to happen, what should happen and what can happen.)
I suspect a large majority accept that Brexit has happened and will continue to happen. A small majority (according to YouGov) think it's a mistake, and a larger majority (according to YouGov) think the government is making an absolute Horlicks of the situation.
There's no contradiction there.
I don't agree with it to apply 100% of the time.
Even the great lady can be wrong at times.
The ability to change our law democratically is to me a fundamental and inviolable principle. If that means overriding international law then to avoid any doubt whatsoever if democracy and international law clash then I choose democracy. Parliament is sovereign and Parliament sets the law.
Observing the mess a government with a majority of 80 is making of things has nothing to do with 'not accepting' Brexit (those who dislike it seem to be more aware it has already happened than those who supported it), or trying to 'reverse' it.
And remarking on the mess is not the same thing as 'wanting it to fail' - as if that would make any difference to the outcome anyway.
Just leave Boris and we can get on with our lives.
Fuck the law - done
Coming next, fuck democracy.
The Tory trajectory is absolutely clear.
Brexiteers voted for it. Kippers voted for it.
Conservative and Unionists did not, could not, vote for this shitshow.
First one (and still the strongest) -
"Yes, ok, 12 is more than 6, but in deciding upon 12 I was acting in what I judged to be the best interests of me and my family. This is a higher principle than mere legality and dictates that I escape all censure. Indeed I should be praised."
Now backed up by -
"Of course 12 is more than 6, it's double in fact, such is obvious, so I have broken the law. But - and like Kim K's it's a massive one - I have only broken the law in a specific and limited way, namely by 6. This, as per the very highest precedent, is my inalienable right."
(NB: This post does not count as me getting involved in discussion on this latest nonsense from "Boris" & Co. As stated yesterday, I will not be doing so because I see through it. It's tedious 'feed the fish' PR, designed to fire up the Brexit culture wars again and it impacts nothing of importance. WTO remains a fictional bogeyman. A border in Ireland remains unthinkable. Thus a deal agreeing close alignment with the EU remains a certainty. People, please do not be distracted by all this guff. It's what the creators of it want.)
Under present management, the Conservative Party is nothing.
Wonder if Lad Politics have priced it right.
https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1303609668321894401
Furlough ends next month, Oct and Nov are the two worst months for pubs and restaurants, 4m unemployed by January.
Nothing at all to do with Brexit, its global stupidity
As a result until 2024 the Tories have a big majority and a democratic mandate
The numbers on here who can even comprehend why millions of ordinary Americans vote for Donald Trump can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
My experience is that even in liberal Manhattan Americans do not look at their president the way CNN and MSNBC look at him. He is just another President.
They don't really think he's particularly racist or sexist either/. How could he be when me as an immigrant/black blue collar worker just got a decent raise, and me as a female investment banker just got a promotion?
Also the president is the titular head of state as well as the political head, and Americans are wary of criticising him in the same way we would be wary of criticising the Queen.
Point this stuff out and all you get is a barrage of abuse, with one poster after another waiting to pour scorn on what are quite innocent observations.
1. The Withdrawal Act is a piece of domestic legislation.
2. The Court of Appeal has already ruled that the provisions of the Ministerial Code relating to upholding the rule of law include international law.
Personally, I dont think WTO so bad. Our Metroplitan arts and knowledge sectors will continue to thrive, while there will be major structural changes in manufacturing, agriculture and food. Service industries like my own will continue largely unaffected. Immigration will be affected more by Covid-19 than anything else, but more third world.
I am fairly phlegmatic about the economic aspects. It is the devaluation of our cultural, and political relationships with longstanding friends and partners that bothers me.
Leave the largest free trade area in the World to get shafted on trade by Japan...
If Ministers were seeking to unilaterally change the law without Parliamentary approval then that would be absolutely unacceptable but if Parliament votes to allow it then that is democracy.
CV19 shifted the goal posts within 2 months of taking office, illness may also have hamstrung his judgement, but are we getting to a point when the men and women in gray suits act on the advice of those in white coats to encourage Boris to step down before he damages the country?
I would not support that, outside of exceptional circumstances (eg pushing them back by a year due to COVID19 or WWII).
The mini rally before the storm?