Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Undefined discussion subject.

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited August 2020 in General
Undefined discussion subject.

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited August 2020
    First like the draw in the cricket.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Second, like a bloke with a sponge by a boxing ring.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    tlg86 said:

    First like the draw in the cricket.

    If the rain could bugger off to Taunton, that would be immensely helpful.

    Disappointing to abandon our discussion about large organs in favour of a thread about the world's largest organ.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Third, loike what comes out of me arsh.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited August 2020
    My view is that punters are still being influenced by what happened last time.

    Spot on. Good value on Biden. Tbh Clinton would have been good value at an implied 56% chance last time round. That the bet would have lost is neither here nor there.
    Biden's position is certainly stronger than Clinton's was though.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    I wonder how much good Trump thinks the clips of Hillary looking ill did him last time round.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    edited August 2020
    Compare "With the exception is the Republican-friendly pollster, Rasmussen, all the other surveys have dire numbers for Trump and there is no precedent for an incumbent with such disapproval levels getting re-elected." And this bias has been very obvious for at least 10 years.

    Remembering TSE's comment yesterday about YouGov "Quite simply their brand would be ruined if their methodology was a pro Tory position, ..."
    So I'm wondering why are Rasmussen still being quoted as serious pollsters?
  • FPT

    Quite what? Without Bercow, there was a general election so that point is moot. Until then, it was possible (if unlikely) to construct a Labour government to revoke Article 50 and call an election.
    No it wasn't. Do the maths and show how you get a majority behind a Labour government.
  • FPT

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Actually, "God Save The Queen" is a much more mournful dirge than "Jerusalem"!
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    eristdoof said:

    Compare "With the exception is the Republican-friendly pollster, Rasmussen, all the other surveys have dire numbers for Trump and there is no precedent for an incumbent with such disapproval levels getting re-elected." And this bias has been very obvious for at least 10 years.

    Remembering TSE's comment yesterday about YouGov "Quite simply their brand would be ruined if their methodology was a pro Tory position, ..."
    So I'm wondering why are Rasmussen still being quoted as serious pollsters?

    You could argue that the other way too. Big time.

    Who are largely the paymasters of the other pollsters? organisations for whom Trump is a total anathema, not just a political opponent. A figure of complete and utter visceral hatred. A figure who, even if he did something right, simply could not do anything right. Someone they don;t just want beaten, but erased.

  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Mad stat, today there are 474 covid postive patients in hospital in England and 246 in Scotland. England has 10 times the population of Scotland.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    First like the draw in the cricket.

    If the rain could bugger off to Taunton, that would be immensely helpful.

    Disappointing to abandon our discussion about large organs in favour of a thread about the world's largest organ.
    If it would clear away from Arundel as well, that would be good.

    However, can someone please explain to me why every topic here recently has been an 'undefined discussion subject'?
    When, as with the current one, it clearly isn't.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Where as he is "setting the table" for disputing the result.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    eristdoof said:

    Compare "With the exception is the Republican-friendly pollster, Rasmussen, all the other surveys have dire numbers for Trump and there is no precedent for an incumbent with such disapproval levels getting re-elected." And this bias has been very obvious for at least 10 years.

    Remembering TSE's comment yesterday about YouGov "Quite simply their brand would be ruined if their methodology was a pro Tory position, ..."
    So I'm wondering why are Rasmussen still being quoted as serious pollsters?

    You could argue that the other way too. Big time.

    Who are largely the paymasters of the other pollsters? organisations for whom Trump is a total anathema, not just a political opponent. A figure of complete and utter visceral hatred. A figure who, even if he did something right, simply could not do anything right. Someone they don;t just want beaten, but erased.

    Including Fox News??
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    FPT

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Actually, "God Save The Queen" is a much more mournful dirge than "Jerusalem"!

    I don't think you will find many people in the world who disagree with you on that one.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    eristdoof said:

    Compare "With the exception is the Republican-friendly pollster, Rasmussen, all the other surveys have dire numbers for Trump and there is no precedent for an incumbent with such disapproval levels getting re-elected." And this bias has been very obvious for at least 10 years.

    Remembering TSE's comment yesterday about YouGov "Quite simply their brand would be ruined if their methodology was a pro Tory position, ..."
    So I'm wondering why are Rasmussen still being quoted as serious pollsters?

    You could argue that the other way too. Big time.

    Who are largely the paymasters of the other pollsters? organisations for whom Trump is a total anathema, not just a political opponent. A figure of complete and utter visceral hatred. A figure who, even if he did something right, simply could not do anything right. Someone they don;t just want beaten, but erased.

    Except that the other US pollsters on average get the national elections right. Rasmussen were biassed before Trump and they are biassed in the Trump era.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    eristdoof said:

    Where as he is "setting the table" for disputing the result.

    eristdoof said:

    Compare "With the exception is the Republican-friendly pollster, Rasmussen, all the other surveys have dire numbers for Trump and there is no precedent for an incumbent with such disapproval levels getting re-elected." And this bias has been very obvious for at least 10 years.

    Remembering TSE's comment yesterday about YouGov "Quite simply their brand would be ruined if their methodology was a pro Tory position, ..."
    So I'm wondering why are Rasmussen still being quoted as serious pollsters?

    You could argue that the other way too. Big time.

    Who are largely the paymasters of the other pollsters? organisations for whom Trump is a total anathema, not just a political opponent. A figure of complete and utter visceral hatred. A figure who, even if he did something right, simply could not do anything right. Someone they don;t just want beaten, but erased.

    Including Fox News??
    Fair point, but I said 'largely' And Fox may be right wing, but not in a populist sense, I think its fair to say.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    FPT
    CarlottaVance said:

    » show previous quotes
    The SNP White Paper did:

    What about our share of the national debt?
    Scotland and the rest of the UK will agree a share of the national debt. This could be by reference to the historical contribution made to the 􏰌􏰒’s public finances by Scotland. 􏰍n alternative approach would be to use our population share.

    Page 50.

    That was based on a fair share of ALL of the value of UK assets being deposited in our central bank. Usual half (s)tory from an ally of George Galloway. Tories don't half keep rum company.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366

    Mad stat, today there are 474 covid postive patients in hospital in England and 246 in Scotland. England has 10 times the population of Scotland.

    I haven't bothered today - but the cases numbers later in the week, after we are out of the weekend shadow might be interesting.

    Every other indicator is down, in England.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    There are different levels of wearing face masks in schools. One is you have to wear a face mask when on the move, but do not have to when sat down during a lesson.

    Another is you have to wear a face mask at all times including during lessons.

    The question blurs this important distinction.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    edited August 2020
    eristdoof said:

    FPT

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Actually, "God Save The Queen" is a much more mournful dirge than "Jerusalem"!

    I don't think you will find many people in the world who disagree with you on that one.
    No.

    The General Wade verse is quite amusing though. It should be brought out at Murrayfield every 2 years.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
  • ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    First like the draw in the cricket.

    If the rain could bugger off to Taunton, that would be immensely helpful.

    Disappointing to abandon our discussion about large organs in favour of a thread about the world's largest organ.
    If it would clear away from Arundel as well, that would be good.

    However, can someone please explain to me why every topic here recently has been an 'undefined discussion subject'?
    When, as with the current one, it clearly isn't.
    There hasn't so there must be something wrong at your end.
  • eristdoof said:

    There are different levels of wearing face masks in schools. One is you have to wear a face mask when on the move, but do not have to when sat down during a lesson.

    Another is you have to wear a face mask at all times including during lessons.

    The question blurs this important distinction.
    Though, at the moment, the UK government guidance is to not wear them at all. As in a positive instruction to not wear them, rather than "do what you think is best". (Scotland changed its view on this this afternoon, I think).

    This is one of the reasons that teachers are less than convinced that the UK government has their best interests at heart.
  • I do think face masks should be allowed for staff at school
  • What penny needs to drop in Brussels? No Deal will be no problem for the UK, why do we even care what they think now?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    eristdoof said:

    Compare "With the exception is the Republican-friendly pollster, Rasmussen, all the other surveys have dire numbers for Trump and there is no precedent for an incumbent with such disapproval levels getting re-elected." And this bias has been very obvious for at least 10 years.

    Remembering TSE's comment yesterday about YouGov "Quite simply their brand would be ruined if their methodology was a pro Tory position, ..."
    So I'm wondering why are Rasmussen still being quoted as serious pollsters?

    You could argue that the other way too. Big time...
    You could if you really wanted to.
    But pollsters are usually judged on their performance rather than who owns them.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    CarlottaVance said:

    » show previous quotes
    The SNP White Paper did:

    What about our share of the national debt?
    Scotland and the rest of the UK will agree a share of the national debt. This could be by reference to the historical contribution made to the 􏰌􏰒’s public finances by Scotland. 􏰍n alternative approach would be to use our population share.

    Page 50.

    That was based on a fair share of ALL of the value of UK assets being deposited in our central bank. Usual half (s)tory from an ally of George Galloway. Tories don't half keep rum company.

    The SNP White Paper did not propose a Central Bank, but "a seat on the Board of the Bank of England".
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    I do think face masks should be allowed for staff at school

    Well they are not banned. Is it not down to the individual teachers?
    I must say I can't really imagine teaching with a face mask on. It muffles your voice, reduces the ability of the kids to read your facial expressions and is quite uncomfortable for long periods. But for moving around corridors etc, yes, I probably would.
  • DavidL said:

    I do think face masks should be allowed for staff at school

    Well they are not banned. Is it not down to the individual teachers?
    I must say I can't really imagine teaching with a face mask on. It muffles your voice, reduces the ability of the kids to read your facial expressions and is quite uncomfortable for long periods. But for moving around corridors etc, yes, I probably would.
    If the virus is spread in saliva, then teachers projecting their voices without masks is an obvious risk. Perhaps teachers should be mic'd up.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    eristdoof said:

    There are different levels of wearing face masks in schools. One is you have to wear a face mask when on the move, but do not have to when sat down during a lesson.

    Another is you have to wear a face mask at all times including during lessons.

    The question blurs this important distinction.
    Indeed. My son is not wearing them during lessons but is supposed to in the corridors or playground.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    That should kill any remaining tourism stone dead:

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/1297931318332923905?s=20
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    DavidL said:

    I do think face masks should be allowed for staff at school

    Well they are not banned. Is it not down to the individual teachers?
    I must say I can't really imagine teaching with a face mask on. It muffles your voice, reduces the ability of the kids to read your facial expressions and is quite uncomfortable for long periods. But for moving around corridors etc, yes, I probably would.
    If the virus is spread in saliva, then teachers projecting their voices without masks is an obvious risk. Perhaps teachers should be mic'd up.
    They stay at least 2m away from the children, normally more. They aren't bawling, I think that's enough.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    That should kill any remaining tourism stone dead:

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/1297931318332923905?s=20

    Good. International travel right now needs to be discouraged. Period. We can start again once we have a vaccine.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Mad stat, today there are 474 covid postive patients in hospital in England and 246 in Scotland. England has 10 times the population of Scotland.

    Why is it mad, we went into it later and would expect to be lagging , no-one is dying so it is not an issue.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    malcolmg said:

    Mad stat, today there are 474 covid postive patients in hospital in England and 246 in Scotland. England has 10 times the population of Scotland.

    Why is it mad, we went into it later and would expect to be lagging , no-one is dying so it is not an issue.
    Its a bit like the Wales daily admission figure. You wonder if it is correct,
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Bit more detail on the HK re-infection case;

    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1297884940042985472
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    "Of course most Americans are only just now starting to pay attention"

    I really am not sure that is true this election cycle.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,481
    Nigelb said:

    Bit more detail on the HK re-infection case;

    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1297884940042985472

    False positive, Shirley?

    If he got it the first time and showed symptoms, why would he not have any symptoms second time around if it was not for an immune response?
  • The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,465

    Nigelb said:

    Bit more detail on the HK re-infection case;

    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1297884940042985472

    False positive, Shirley?

    If he got it the first time and showed symptoms, why would he not have any symptoms second time around if it was not for an immune response?
    And if asymptomatic, does it matter? If we all caught it but were all asymptomatic there would be no problem.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Nigelb said:

    Bit more detail on the HK re-infection case;

    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1297884940042985472

    False positive, Shirley?

    If he got it the first time and showed symptoms, why would he not have any symptoms second time around if it was not for an immune response?
    Extracted viral RNA and sequenced it, I believe - different seqwuences.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,481

    The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
  • The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
    Perhaps if the UK stopped undermining the deal it signed, some progress might be made. Let's be honest they wanted no trade deal and they're going to blame the EU for it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited August 2020

    Nigelb said:

    Bit more detail on the HK re-infection case;

    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1297884940042985472

    False positive, Shirley?

    If he got it the first time and showed symptoms, why would he not have any symptoms second time around if it was not for an immune response?
    You must have missed the earlier reports, which explained that the virus from both tests happened to be sequenced, and were quite clearly genetically distinct.
    As we know, you can be infected and asymptomatic - and it may indeed be a persistent immune response from the first infection that ensured the second infection was so mild.

    That doesn't make it a false positive, but it does suggest that the danger of reinfection might be less than everyone feared.

    Without seeing a detailed report on the incident (no paper has been published), it's not easy to say much more.

    (edit)
    As a virologist confirms:
    https://twitter.com/VirusesImmunity/status/1297890418168860674
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704

    The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
    It's the opposite. They only go into the 'tunnel' if there is already the basis of a high-level agreement, and at that point the heads of government are taken out of the loop.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    There are different levels of wearing face masks in schools. One is you have to wear a face mask when on the move, but do not have to when sat down during a lesson.

    Another is you have to wear a face mask at all times including during lessons.

    The question blurs this important distinction.
    Indeed. My son is not wearing them during lessons but is supposed to in the corridors or playground.
    When the current estimates are that something like 70% of transmission events might be from airborne virus, it's extraordinary that government guidance has so little to say about it (in contrast to a great deal about hand washing).
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/actions-for-schools-during-the-coronavirus-outbreak/guidance-for-full-opening-schools

    They do helpfully remind schools of their legal responsibilities to conduct risk assessments ...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,481
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Bit more detail on the HK re-infection case;

    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1297884940042985472

    False positive, Shirley?

    If he got it the first time and showed symptoms, why would he not have any symptoms second time around if it was not for an immune response?
    You must have missed the earlier reports, which explained that the virus from both tests happened to be sequenced, and were quite clearly genetically distinct.
    As we know, you can be infected and asymptomatic - and it may indeed be a persistent immune response from the first infection that ensured the second infection was so mild.

    That doesn't make it a false positive, but it does suggest that the danger of reinfection might be less than everyone feared.

    Without seeing a detailed report on the incident (no paper has been published), it's not easy to say much more.
    Ok, thanks to you and Carnyx for the clarification.

    It would stand to reason that the difference in symptoms was due to an immune reaction.
  • https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/1297938133397450753

    Yes it is easy to build on the back of Obama's economy
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,481
    edited August 2020

    The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
    It's the opposite. They only go into the 'tunnel' if there is already the basis of a high-level agreement, and at that point the heads of government are taken out of the loop.
    I am happy to give way to your superior knowledge of the terminology and timings. The phase I am speaking of could well be before 'the tunnel'. However, my basic point stands, which is that in the current phase, Barnier and his team do not have the power to make substantive concessions even if the case for doing so was cast iron. It's play acting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Bit more detail on the HK re-infection case;

    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1297884940042985472

    False positive, Shirley?

    If he got it the first time and showed symptoms, why would he not have any symptoms second time around if it was not for an immune response?
    You must have missed the earlier reports, which explained that the virus from both tests happened to be sequenced, and were quite clearly genetically distinct.
    As we know, you can be infected and asymptomatic - and it may indeed be a persistent immune response from the first infection that ensured the second infection was so mild.

    That doesn't make it a false positive, but it does suggest that the danger of reinfection might be less than everyone feared.

    Without seeing a detailed report on the incident (no paper has been published), it's not easy to say much more.
    Ok, thanks to you and Carnyx for the clarification.

    It would stand to reason that the difference in symptoms was due to an immune reaction.
    There must be more detail out there somewhere, as this is from the thread I posted a link to above:

    https://twitter.com/VirusesImmunity/status/1297890434262474758

    The two shot prime/boost vaccines are based on a similar idea.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Usain Bolt, positive for coronavirus:
  • DavidL said:

    That should kill any remaining tourism stone dead:

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/1297931318332923905?s=20

    Good. International travel right now needs to be discouraged. Period. We can start again once we have a vaccine.
    Agreed 100%

    Anyone prioritising international travel over ensuring we can have our own country open during a plague is mad. If we hadn't needed a lockdown then the idea of closing international travel would be insane, but having been through a lockdown the priority should be ensuring that never happens again - not being able to visit second homes overseas or having a holiday overseas.
  • The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
    Perhaps if the UK stopped undermining the deal it signed, some progress might be made. Let's be honest they wanted no trade deal and they're going to blame the EU for it.
    The UK isn't undermining* the deal it signed, the problem is the EU disingenuously trying to rewrite the deal to mean the opposite of what it actually says in black and white - of which Barnier is very guilty.

    * Some batshit crazy loons are but they're not part of the government and best off ignored.
  • The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
    Perhaps if the UK stopped undermining the deal it signed, some progress might be made. Let's be honest they wanted no trade deal and they're going to blame the EU for it.
    Given Barnier's disgraceful attitude no trade deal is the best thing that can happen right now it seems, unless they change tact.

    After we've gone through no deal and diverged from them then maybe they will come to their senses and start talking properly. If so then a deal can be agreed later, but we will have already diverged more from them by then.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Bit more detail on the HK re-infection case;

    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1297884940042985472

    False positive, Shirley?

    If he got it the first time and showed symptoms, why would he not have any symptoms second time around if it was not for an immune response?
    You must have missed the earlier reports, which explained that the virus from both tests happened to be sequenced, and were quite clearly genetically distinct.
    As we know, you can be infected and asymptomatic - and it may indeed be a persistent immune response from the first infection that ensured the second infection was so mild.

    That doesn't make it a false positive, but it does suggest that the danger of reinfection might be less than everyone feared.

    Without seeing a detailed report on the incident (no paper has been published), it's not easy to say much more.

    (edit)
    As a virologist confirms:
    https://twitter.com/VirusesImmunity/status/1297890418168860674
    Nigel, surely that virologist's explanation only makes sense if the spike protein is different between the strains? A healthy memory T-cell and IgM response to the original spike protein would be expected to prevent reinfection, rather than just ameliorate the symptoms, would it not?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/1297938133397450753

    Yes it is easy to build on the back of Obama's economy

    The debates, if they happen, will be must see TV.

    But will they?
  • What penny needs to drop in Brussels? No Deal will be no problem for the UK, why do we even care what they think now?

    That the UK is going to be an equal sovereign nation and not a supplicant colony subjugated to their rules.
  • The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
    Perhaps if the UK stopped undermining the deal it signed, some progress might be made. Let's be honest they wanted no trade deal and they're going to blame the EU for it.
    Given Barnier's disgraceful attitude no trade deal is the best thing that can happen right now it seems, unless they change tact.

    After we've gone through no deal and diverged from them then maybe they will come to their senses and start talking properly. If so then a deal can be agreed later, but we will have already diverged more from them by then.
    Barnier is trying to undermine the deal the EU signed, is he? No.

    The EU doesn't care about No Deal, how many times is this going to need to be said. It's blatantly clear to anyone not blinkered the EU just need to sit and wait and we'll come back to them.
  • In any negotiation there is a strong party and a weak party. The UK is the weak party, this is obvious.
  • What penny needs to drop in Brussels? No Deal will be no problem for the UK, why do we even care what they think now?

    That the UK is going to be an equal sovereign nation and not a supplicant colony subjugated to their rules.
    What a whole load of utter nonsense Philip
  • The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
    Perhaps if the UK stopped undermining the deal it signed, some progress might be made. Let's be honest they wanted no trade deal and they're going to blame the EU for it.
    Given Barnier's disgraceful attitude no trade deal is the best thing that can happen right now it seems, unless they change tact.

    After we've gone through no deal and diverged from them then maybe they will come to their senses and start talking properly. If so then a deal can be agreed later, but we will have already diverged more from them by then.
    Barnier is trying to undermine the deal the EU signed, is he? No.

    The EU doesn't care about No Deal, how many times is this going to need to be said. It's blatantly clear to anyone not blinkered the EU just need to sit and wait and we'll come back to them.
    Yes he is on the LPF he is explicitly undermining it.

    I don't think we will come back to them but so be it we will see. I'm quite content for No Deal too - its people like you that seem most flustered about it.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    What penny needs to drop in Brussels? No Deal will be no problem for the UK, why do we even care what they think now?

    That the UK is going to be an equal sovereign nation and not a supplicant colony subjugated to their rules.
    Equal my arse
  • FPT

    Quite what? Without Bercow, there was a general election so that point is moot. Until then, it was possible (if unlikely) to construct a Labour government to revoke Article 50 and call an election.
    No it wasn't. Do the maths and show how you get a majority behind a Labour government.
    It depends how busy were dentists on the day of the vote.
  • nichomar said:

    What penny needs to drop in Brussels? No Deal will be no problem for the UK, why do we even care what they think now?

    That the UK is going to be an equal sovereign nation and not a supplicant colony subjugated to their rules.
    Equal my arse
    You're right we're not equal, we're better than them. But I'm being polite.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
    Perhaps if the UK stopped undermining the deal it signed, some progress might be made. Let's be honest they wanted no trade deal and they're going to blame the EU for it.
    Given Barnier's disgraceful attitude no trade deal is the best thing that can happen right now it seems, unless they change tact.

    After we've gone through no deal and diverged from them then maybe they will come to their senses and start talking properly. If so then a deal can be agreed later, but we will have already diverged more from them by then.
    Nice to see you fall for the Tory propaganda.

    The Tories don't want a deal because they aren't bright enough to understand the consequences of not having one.
  • eek said:

    The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
    Perhaps if the UK stopped undermining the deal it signed, some progress might be made. Let's be honest they wanted no trade deal and they're going to blame the EU for it.
    Given Barnier's disgraceful attitude no trade deal is the best thing that can happen right now it seems, unless they change tact.

    After we've gone through no deal and diverged from them then maybe they will come to their senses and start talking properly. If so then a deal can be agreed later, but we will have already diverged more from them by then.
    Nice to see you fall for the Tory propaganda.

    The Tories don't want a deal because they aren't bright enough to understand the consequences of not having one.
    Oooh go on, tell me about these scary terrifying consequences I don't understand. I'll be patient, I can even understand big words.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,704

    What penny needs to drop in Brussels? No Deal will be no problem for the UK, why do we even care what they think now?

    That the UK is going to be an equal sovereign nation and not a supplicant colony subjugated to their rules.
    If we want to be equal to the members of the EU, we need to be in the EU.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    What penny needs to drop in Brussels? No Deal will be no problem for the UK, why do we even care what they think now?

    That the UK is going to be an equal sovereign nation and not a supplicant colony subjugated to their rules.
    Equal my arse
    You're right we're not equal, we're better than them. But I'm being polite.
    That’s the problem you actually believe that rubbish.
  • Yours truly is one of the 51 million, being an active registered voter in an all vote-by-mail state.

    Trumpsky's attacks - rhetorical and operational - are serious. BUT hope that Dems are NOT jumping into another rabbit hole, like they did with impeachment.

    That is, playing into Trumpsky's hands.
  • USA GOP VP betting

    Something very odd is happening on Betfair. Someone has just backed Kristi Noem and Nicki Haley at 1000, even after Pence has been nominated at the RNC.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    That should kill any remaining tourism stone dead:

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/1297931318332923905?s=20

    Fine but France is the nation most visited by tourists in the world, the UK is only the 10th most visited nation (though London is the 3rd most visited city)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_international_visitors
  • FPT

    Quite what? Without Bercow, there was a general election so that point is moot. Until then, it was possible (if unlikely) to construct a Labour government to revoke Article 50 and call an election.
    No it wasn't. Do the maths and show how you get a majority behind a Labour government.
    It depends how busy were dentists on the day of the vote.
    There wouldn't be one day of a vote, for there to be a functioning government there are votes practically every day. You can't rely on the dentist for all of them.

    The numbers weren't there in the last Parliament for what you propose.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    That should kill any remaining tourism stone dead:

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/1297931318332923905?s=20

    Fine but France is the nation most visited by tourists in the world, the UK is only the 10th most visited nation (though London is the 3rd most visited city)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_international_visitors
    That can’t be true we’re better than they are
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    TimT said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Bit more detail on the HK re-infection case;

    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1297884940042985472

    False positive, Shirley?

    If he got it the first time and showed symptoms, why would he not have any symptoms second time around if it was not for an immune response?
    You must have missed the earlier reports, which explained that the virus from both tests happened to be sequenced, and were quite clearly genetically distinct.
    As we know, you can be infected and asymptomatic - and it may indeed be a persistent immune response from the first infection that ensured the second infection was so mild.

    That doesn't make it a false positive, but it does suggest that the danger of reinfection might be less than everyone feared.

    Without seeing a detailed report on the incident (no paper has been published), it's not easy to say much more.

    (edit)
    As a virologist confirms:
    https://twitter.com/VirusesImmunity/status/1297890418168860674
    Nigel, surely that virologist's explanation only makes sense if the spike protein is different between the strains? A healthy memory T-cell and IgM response to the original spike protein would be expected to prevent reinfection, rather than just ameliorate the symptoms, would it not?
    Not necessarily, if you look at the difference in antibody titres between the first and second infection ?

    It seems to me (FWIW) that there's still very large amount we don't understand about the detailed mechanics of the complicated interplay between viral infection and the immune system.
    It's clearly not a completely binary infected/immune picture.
  • FPT

    Quite what? Without Bercow, there was a general election so that point is moot. Until then, it was possible (if unlikely) to construct a Labour government to revoke Article 50 and call an election.
    No it wasn't. Do the maths and show how you get a majority behind a Labour government.
    It depends how busy were dentists on the day of the vote.
    There wouldn't be one day of a vote, for there to be a functioning government there are votes practically every day. You can't rely on the dentist for all of them.

    The numbers weren't there in the last Parliament for what you propose.
    The offer from Labour was purdah terms.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Nigelb said:

    Bit more detail on the HK re-infection case;

    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1297884940042985472

    Better than the original headline that detail.
  • nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    What penny needs to drop in Brussels? No Deal will be no problem for the UK, why do we even care what they think now?

    That the UK is going to be an equal sovereign nation and not a supplicant colony subjugated to their rules.
    Equal my arse
    You're right we're not equal, we're better than them. But I'm being polite.
    That’s the problem you actually believe that rubbish.
    Its not rubbish. How would you like to measure it?

    GDP per capita?
    Median household income?
    Median wages?

    On any reasonable metric the UK is better than the EU.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Pulpstar said:

    My view is that punters are still being influenced by what happened last time.

    Spot on. Good value on Biden. Tbh Clinton would have been good value at an implied 56% chance last time round. That the bet would have lost is neither here nor there.
    Biden's position is certainly stronger than Clinton's was though.

    But, she wasn't by election night.

    I've never turned a position around so fast. Saved me losing a big one.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    That should kill any remaining tourism stone dead:

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/1297931318332923905?s=20

    Fine but France is the nation most visited by tourists in the world, the UK is only the 10th most visited nation (though London is the 3rd most visited city)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_international_visitors
    That can’t be true we’re better than they are
    We had and arguably still have a bigger economy but they have Paris, the Alps for skiing, the south of France with better weather for their beaches as well as more countryside and still history like we have with their chateaux and museums
  • What penny needs to drop in Brussels? No Deal will be no problem for the UK, why do we even care what they think now?

    That the UK is going to be an equal sovereign nation and not a supplicant colony subjugated to their rules.
    If we want to be equal to the members of the EU, we need to be in the EU.
    We're not equal to the members of the EU, they're subordinate to the EU.

    We need to be talking on equal terms with the EU itself, not its members.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    @TheScreamingEagles

    Indian
    Satchins (Behind Central Station)
    Dabbawal (High Bridge or Jesmond)

    English
    Blackfriars (Friar Street)
    Marco Polo (Dean Street)
    Redhouse (Sandhill - Quayside)
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    In any negotiation there is a strong party and a weak party. The UK is the weak party, this is obvious.

    In any negotiation there are parties seeking to create value from an agreement. If any one or more party(ies) gain nothing - or lose - then there should be no deal.

    In this case, you could argue that both parties are not seeking to create value, but to minimize loss, but that is to ignore the elements with non-economic value.

    Personally, at this stage, I would argue we may have no ZOPA (zone of potential agreement) because the two biggest non-economic issues are, for the EU, showing the rEU that leaving the EU is too painful and, for the UK, re-establishing British sovereignty, and these two big value items are pulling in opposite directions.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,481

    The Sun's reporting of the EU basically saying "sod off" is very entertaining

    Barnier's team doesn't have a mandate to say anything except sod off. The real negotiations begin in the 'tunnel' phase (or whatever it's called) and involve the Heads of Government of the 27.
    Perhaps if the UK stopped undermining the deal it signed, some progress might be made. Let's be honest they wanted no trade deal and they're going to blame the EU for it.
    Given Barnier's disgraceful attitude no trade deal is the best thing that can happen right now it seems, unless they change tact.

    After we've gone through no deal and diverged from them then maybe they will come to their senses and start talking properly. If so then a deal can be agreed later, but we will have already diverged more from them by then.
    Barnier is trying to undermine the deal the EU signed, is he? No.

    The EU doesn't care about No Deal, how many times is this going to need to be said. It's blatantly clear to anyone not blinkered the EU just need to sit and wait and we'll come back to them.
    Yes he is on the LPF he is explicitly undermining it.

    I don't think we will come back to them but so be it we will see. I'm quite content for No Deal too - its people like you that seem most flustered about it.
    I think it's less complex than that. Barnier is just going for EU-max. He's been given a wishlist, and he has not really diverted from it in the entire course of the negotiations. Because he can't. Barnier is a civil servant - he couldn't produce some flourish of a great deal even if he wanted to because he doesn't have the power to make decisions that affect Spanish and French fishermen etc. Frustratingly for all concerned, this phase is just neither side giving much until the real negotiations start. What we can say is thank God our negotiators aren't giving any concessions at this stage - that would be the height of foolishness. Basically thank God we've not got May and her 'negotiating team'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    What penny needs to drop in Brussels? No Deal will be no problem for the UK, why do we even care what they think now?

    That the UK is going to be an equal sovereign nation and not a supplicant colony subjugated to their rules.
    If we want to be equal to the members of the EU, we need to be in the EU.
    The UK is not equal to the EU, Scotland is not equal to the rest of the UK, if you declare independence you take the hit of a subsequent trade deal which will hit you more than them if you are the smaller partner
  • nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    That should kill any remaining tourism stone dead:

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/1297931318332923905?s=20

    Fine but France is the nation most visited by tourists in the world, the UK is only the 10th most visited nation (though London is the 3rd most visited city)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_international_visitors
    That can’t be true we’re better than they are
    France != the EU and yes we are on any measurable metric I can think of measuring it per capita. I'd be curious as to how you think otherwise.

    But tourism alone does not a country make. The Dominican Republic has a major trade surplus on tourism - doesn't mean its a better country to live in than the UK though.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    That should kill any remaining tourism stone dead:

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/1297931318332923905?s=20

    Fine but France is the nation most visited by tourists in the world, the UK is only the 10th most visited nation (though London is the 3rd most visited city)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_international_visitors
    That can’t be true we’re better than they are
    We had and arguably still have a bigger economy but they have Paris, the Alps for skiing, the south of France with better weather for their beaches as well as more countryside and still history like we have with their chateaux and museums
    And people are risking their lives to cross the channel on rubber dinghies to leave all that?

    Are they mad?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    @CarlottaVance

    I'm a Brexiteer. I think both the UK and the EU (not just the UK, and not just the EU either) are being pricks over the full FTA.

    State Aid and Fish (WTF?) are silly hills to die-on for a full FTA that is in both parties interests, and where both have come so far already.

    Both need to put their cocks away, get round the negotiating table, eat some humble pie where necessary, and do a f--king deal.
  • In any negotiation there is a strong party and a weak party. The UK is the weak party, this is obvious.

    This is the problem, you actually think the UK is weak.
This discussion has been closed.