It's rather unfair to claim Labour are worse now at being Opposition than under Corbyn. Keir Starmer has closed the gap to 2% and is more popular than Johnson as PM. It's deeper than that, however. Labour have to tread a very careful line because of the virus. They can't be seen to be opportunistic, nor to be crowing over mistakes when the result of those is death.
I think Starmer has this right. He's being measured and giving Johnson rope, which the latter is hanging himself, his cabinet and rag tag with.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Why would you wish that given the harm it would cause a great many people, including many Remain supporters. It’s pathetic.
Bit like those folk who say that they're rubbing their hands & ordering in the popcorn at the prospect of what they say will be the complete disaster of an indy Scotland.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
Which pretty well exemplifies the attitude of the government, too. While the electorate quite understand that point, as a governing principle, it’s somewhat lacking. As a negotiating stance with the EU, it’s entirely beside the point.
I’ve never heard anyone say they thought “distractions” might make the EU sign up to something they wouldn’t otherwise do.
I’ve heard many other arguments. The main one being that if we slip over into 2021 we are going into another budgetary cycle of the EU, including their (then unknown magnitude) Covid bailout fund.
One of the only silver linings of Covid has been the absence of rehashed and tired old arguments about Brexit.
I was offline most of yesterday but have caught up with world events.
Firstly and most importantly, great to see a daddy hundred from young Zak. Let’s see one from World Cup winning titan Joss today too.
Looks like the betting markets are hugely over pricing a Trump win to me. Another prediction, he will give a surprisingly gracious speech accepting defeat on the night and will not trouble the Supreme Court.
Brexit shmexit... other than the extremists and obsessives, people are just tired of it all by now. Without movement on fish then WTO it shall be. Which will prove at a macro level to be a storm in a teacup. Still time for a compromise if Mutti steps in but at this point I’m not sure anyone much cares either way.
Boris and Scotland. How extraordinary to question why he would go to Scotland on holiday? Why shouldn’t he?
The Plague... I was with Robert in thinking in April we were seeing a dead cats bounce in the markets. And back then I fully expected a second wave and was pessimistic about any vaccine. But when the facts changed, I flipped my short to a long. And I am now confident all we’ll see in health effects this winter are smallish after shocks. 2021 is going to be the start of a period of high growth and sustained productivity improvement and its going to be a bloody brilliant decade.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
Deal or no deal doesn't matter greatly, since the deal on offer is so meagre. Better to have one, but there will be a big cost for the economy either way.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
If you think the current government with its jobs and cash for cronies and donors represents a "change on a corrupt corporatist system of government" then I would politely suggest that you're not paying attention. The offer to the "Red Wall" will be the same as in 2016 - blame everything on foreigners. The Tories have nothing else to give them.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
If you think the current government with its jobs and cash for cronies and donors represents a "change on a corrupt corporatist system of government" then I would politely suggest that you're not paying attention. The offer to the "Red Wall" will be the same as in 2016 - blame everything on foreigners. The Tories have nothing else to give them.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
Its not really even "we will do it", as that assumes "it" is a shared and understood destination. Its "we are driving, suck it up and stop asking pesky questions like where are we going".
Deal or no deal doesn't matter greatly, since the deal on offer is so meagre. Better to have one, but there will be a big cost for the economy either way.
This is about the size of it. No one was terribly interested when we were EU members in the progress of signing free trade agreements. Bemoaning the failure of the Doha Round at fashionable parties was a good way to get those near you to suddenly need to go and get a top up.
We’ve left the political structures, we’ve overturned the concept of European citizenship and free movement, we’ve forever closed the door on currency union and we’ve accepted the end of frictionless trade with exit from the customs union. Debate all day the pros and cons of this. But whether we sign a limited free trade deal after that won’t be noticed by most people. Better to have one of course but it’s not going to be the main factor that drives wealth creation or destruction this decade.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
And that is the attitude that ensures however hard we try we can't get over the feeling of betrayal by those who lied their way to victory.
what a daft thing to say. All sides lied, it was a crap campaign.
Daft? I have had freedoms removed from me in the name of democracy, but you have just conceded your victory was based on falsehoods. Yet you are puzzled why I remain pissed off.
But you say both sides lied, so that's alright then is it? Leave won because their lies were more convincing than Remain's lies. Now who is being daft?
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
And that is the attitude that ensures however hard we try we can't get over the feeling of betrayal by those who lied their way to victory.
what a daft thing to say. All sides lied, it was a crap campaign.
Daft? I have had freedoms removed from me in the name of democracy, but you have just conceded your victory was based on falsehoods. Yet you are puzzled why I remain pissed off.
But you say both sides lied, so that's alright then is it? Leave won because their lies were more convincing than Remain's lies. Now who is being daft?
If youd won your victory would also have been based on falsehoods. And as for freedoms and democracy remain was essentially life in the slow lane to a European superstate. When did we get a vote on that ?
One point I don't hear being made is that the government's position on Ireland seriously undermines the Union between England and Scotland. Why? The most obvious argument against Scottish independence is the creation of a border post at Berwick - but since the UK government believes it can leave the EU without re-creating a border in Ireland - why should an independent Scotland that then chose to be in the EU, or customs and single market - need a border either?
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
If you think the current government with its jobs and cash for cronies and donors represents a "change on a corrupt corporatist system of government" then I would politely suggest that you're not paying attention. The offer to the "Red Wall" will be the same as in 2016 - blame everything on foreigners. The Tories have nothing else to give them.
AS it happens thats not what I think.
Then it's not obvious that Brexit has delivered what you thought it would. Brexit is an elite project, funded by ultra-rich international donors who wanted to remove checks on corporate power. The idea that it will do anything for neglected Northern voters is absurd. Anyway, it's happening, we all have to make the most of it. For Labour, that will consist mostly of pointing out its failures and benefiting from voters' anger at the next election.
"we have to have hard Brexit because that's what Conservative voters in the red wall want" says the HYUFD wing of the English Populist Party. We are I fear about to hear the splatting noise of rhetoric impacting reality.
People wanted Brexit. The silver bullet magic wand that fixes all their problems. That tells foreign types who's boss. That restores job prospects and makes their hard living easier.
And they could still have that. Our government could have taken the mandate to leave the EU and have left the EU. Instead they have opted to imagine that the EEA is the EU. The CU is the EU. And so we will find ourselves falling from all of them and bringing utter chaos to the lives of Brexiteers.
"This isn't the Brexit I voted for" has already been posted on Daily Mail comment boards and heavily upvoted. People realise to their horror they are about to be massively inconvenienced. Pay a huge cost. Have worse lives. All the while whilst the HYUFD wing of the English Populist Party patronises them with absurd PR about how they should check how fucked they are, change their plans, and go fuck themselves.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
If you think the current government with its jobs and cash for cronies and donors represents a "change on a corrupt corporatist system of government" then I would politely suggest that you're not paying attention. The offer to the "Red Wall" will be the same as in 2016 - blame everything on foreigners. The Tories have nothing else to give them.
Yes, and the track record of bungs to mates, cronyism and incompetence makes it a nailed on certainty that WTO Brexit will be as big as fiasco as anything this government has done so far.
You don't cure a government of incompetence by giving it a massively complex task to do.
"we have to have hard Brexit because that's what Conservative voters in the red wall want" says the HYUFD wing of the English Populist Party. We are I fear about to hear the splatting noise of rhetoric impacting reality.
People wanted Brexit. The silver bullet magic wand that fixes all their problems. That tells foreign types who's boss. That restores job prospects and makes their hard living easier.
And they could still have that. Our government could have taken the mandate to leave the EU and have left the EU. Instead they have opted to imagine that the EEA is the EU. The CU is the EU. And so we will find ourselves falling from all of them and bringing utter chaos to the lives of Brexiteers.
"This isn't the Brexit I voted for" has already been posted on Daily Mail comment boards and heavily upvoted. People realise to their horror they are about to be massively inconvenienced. Pay a huge cost. Have worse lives. All the while whilst the HYUFD wing of the English Populist Party patronises them with absurd PR about how they should check how fucked they are, change their plans, and go fuck themselves.
They are not going to stay loyal to Shagger.
You are not expecting it to be a success then....???
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
If you think the current government with its jobs and cash for cronies and donors represents a "change on a corrupt corporatist system of government" then I would politely suggest that you're not paying attention. The offer to the "Red Wall" will be the same as in 2016 - blame everything on foreigners. The Tories have nothing else to give them.
AS it happens thats not what I think.
Then it's not obvious that Brexit has delivered what you thought it would. Brexit is an elite project, funded by ultra-rich international donors who wanted to remove checks on corporate power. The idea that it will do anything for neglected Northern voters is absurd. Anyway, it's happening, we all have to make the most of it. For Labour, that will consist mostly of pointing out its failures and benefiting from voters' anger at the next election.
given you dont actually know what I think thats a brave set of assumptions.
On the record I have said the establishment will still be there but the change will be its room for manouevre is now severely restricted and it has to engage with the elctorate by finding a new national consensus. Were still about 5 years off that imo. Which is why we have Boris and Sir Keir Bland pretending they give a shit.
But I suspect the underlying tectonic plates are shifting. The Tories are moving more towards working man patriotism whice Labour is moving more towrads the self righteous middle classes.
By any account thats a shift in the elctoral landscape.
Deal or no deal doesn't matter greatly, since the deal on offer is so meagre. Better to have one, but there will be a big cost for the economy either way.
This is about the size of it. No one was terribly interested when we were EU members in the progress of signing free trade agreements. Bemoaning the failure of the Doha Round at fashionable parties was a good way to get those near you to suddenly need to go and get a top up.
We’ve left the political structures, we’ve overturned the concept of European citizenship and free movement, we’ve forever closed the door on currency union and we’ve accepted the end of frictionless trade with exit from the customs union. Debate all day the pros and cons of this. But whether we sign a limited free trade deal after that won’t be noticed by most people. Better to have one of course but it’s not going to be the main factor that drives wealth creation or destruction this decade.
It’s just another issue that the government have to handle, how these issues are managed will define success or failure of the current incumbents, it would help if they had a vision and a sense of direction as to where they are taking the UK economy and displayed some basic competencies but it will be impossible to split out any one issue that will define success or failure. They needn’t worry though, they have four years and an opposition that is a long way from displaying competence and will blame everybody else for their failures anyway. I’m sure whatever the outcome the wealthy will still be wealthy and the rest of society will still feel left behind.
One point I don't hear being made is that the government's position on Ireland seriously undermines the Union between England and Scotland. Why? The most obvious argument against Scottish independence is the creation of a border post at Berwick - but since the UK government believes it can leave the EU without re-creating a border in Ireland - why should an independent Scotland that then chose to be in the EU, or customs and single market - need a border either?
The biggest obstacle by a mile to Sindy is abandoning the pound. Hard to think of something more politically centripetal than a currency union. It’s the only thing that’s kept the Med in the EU this long. Sure it can be done, but with modern currency dynamics the transition is so rocky it has to be really really worth it to bother.
One point I don't hear being made is that the government's position on Ireland seriously undermines the Union between England and Scotland. Why? The most obvious argument against Scottish independence is the creation of a border post at Berwick - but since the UK government believes it can leave the EU without re-creating a border in Ireland - why should an independent Scotland that then chose to be in the EU, or customs and single market - need a border either?
BiB - Is that really the most obvious argument? I doubt we'd build a (new) wall!
Surely the question of the currency is the biggest obstacle to Scottish independence - it's on another level to Brexit.
Brexit shmexit... other than the extremists and obsessives, people are just tired of it all by now. Without movement on fish then WTO it shall be. Which will prove at a macro level to be a storm in a teacup. Still time for a compromise if Mutti steps in but at this point I’m not sure anyone much cares either way.
That sounds about right. It's old news, and there's not going to be a deal because the relatively loose relationship on the table isn't worth either side compromising its objectives. The EU demands close alignment (to stop the UK competing against it effectively, to assert the form of control that it expects across the whole continent, and because a successful Brexit would provide an exit plan for other members that might grow restive in future to follow,) and the UK Government has been elected under such terms that not only does it not want to give in, it couldn't yield even if it did.
Thus the Northern Ireland protocols survive - because the Government doesn't want to stir the hornet's nest on the peace process, the province is of peripheral value to it, and a hard border would wreck its relationship with the Americans - but beyond that there's not much else left to be discussed.
This is just the logical conclusion to everything that's happened since Cameron tried to negotiate a new relationship with the EU from within, and came away with nothing. At every stage the EU raises the hand and expects the UK to cave, but in the end the UK (other than in the special case of the Irish border, where it has sufficient motivation to give in) ends up not doing so, and is therefore pushed further and further away. And so, having started out basically wanting some modest tweaks to migration policy, Britain has ultimately ended up outside all of the EU's structures, whilst the EU has seen its north-western flank fall into the sea, taking its largest city and one of its key member states with it, and its project to unite the continent has been destroyed.
I would say that the moral of this story is all about the damage that inflexibility and an unwillingness to compromise can do, but then again the UK Government keeps throwing money and powers at Scotland and a fat lot of good that's done it. Perhaps, instead, the real story here is about the inevitable fate of those political structures that attempt to bring nations together? Sooner or later, either those nations have to merge into one seamless and virtually homogeneous whole - how many people still identify as Prussian, let alone favour secession from Germany? - or tensions between them will eventually break the whole structure apart. As with England and the EU, so with Scotland and the UK - once popular opinion in one state concludes that the centre of power is remote and acts in a manner inimical to its interests, then interest in and loyalty to the wider structure collapses and secession becomes a matter of when, not if.
Once the number of people who viewed the EU as poison, or at the very least a tedious burden that we could manage perfectly well without, passed a critical threshold then Brexit became inevitable.
... and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
What planet are you on?
Or does "... longer term ..." apply to some dim and distant future in which your great-grandkids will benefit whilst you and the next few generations are prepared to "take one for team" as the saying goes?
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
If you think the current government with its jobs and cash for cronies and donors represents a "change on a corrupt corporatist system of government" then I would politely suggest that you're not paying attention. The offer to the "Red Wall" will be the same as in 2016 - blame everything on foreigners. The Tories have nothing else to give them.
AS it happens thats not what I think.
Then it's not obvious that Brexit has delivered what you thought it would. Brexit is an elite project, funded by ultra-rich international donors who wanted to remove checks on corporate power. The idea that it will do anything for neglected Northern voters is absurd. Anyway, it's happening, we all have to make the most of it. For Labour, that will consist mostly of pointing out its failures and benefiting from voters' anger at the next election.
given you dont actually know what I think thats a brave set of assumptions.
On the record I have said the establishment will still be there but the change will be its room for manouevre is now severely restricted and it has to engage with the elctorate by finding a new national consensus. Were still about 5 years off that imo. Which is why we have Boris and Sir Keir Bland pretending they give a shit.
But I suspect the underlying tectonic plates are shifting. The Tories are moving more towards working man patriotism whice Labour is moving more towrads the self righteous middle classes.
By any account thats a shift in the elctoral landscape.
The idea that Cummings and Co are interested in any form of national consensus is delusional. Indeed there may well no longer be a single nation.
WTO Brexit will benefit the SE corporate economy. The biggest jobs boost will be for people who can manage the new complexity of import and export. Many smaller companies will find it too much hassle and no longer export.
... and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
What planet are you on?
Or does "... longer term ..." apply to some dim and distant future in which your great-grandkids will benefit whilst you and the next few generations are prepared to "take one for team" as the saying goes?
Im on this one. And the standard definition of long term is 5-10 years, Which is roughly how long iy will take to form a new national consensus.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
If you think the current government with its jobs and cash for cronies and donors represents a "change on a corrupt corporatist system of government" then I would politely suggest that you're not paying attention. The offer to the "Red Wall" will be the same as in 2016 - blame everything on foreigners. The Tories have nothing else to give them.
AS it happens thats not what I think.
Then it's not obvious that Brexit has delivered what you thought it would. Brexit is an elite project, funded by ultra-rich international donors who wanted to remove checks on corporate power. The idea that it will do anything for neglected Northern voters is absurd. Anyway, it's happening, we all have to make the most of it. For Labour, that will consist mostly of pointing out its failures and benefiting from voters' anger at the next election.
given you dont actually know what I think thats a brave set of assumptions.
On the record I have said the establishment will still be there but the change will be its room for manouevre is now severely restricted and it has to engage with the elctorate by finding a new national consensus. Were still about 5 years off that imo. Which is why we have Boris and Sir Keir Bland pretending they give a shit.
But I suspect the underlying tectonic plates are shifting. The Tories are moving more towards working man patriotism whice Labour is moving more towrads the self righteous middle classes.
By any account thats a shift in the elctoral landscape.
The idea that Cummings and Co are interested in any form of national consensus is delusional. Indeed there may well no longer be a single nation.
WTO Brexit will benefit the SE corporate economy. The biggest jobs boost will be for people who can manage the new complexity of import and export. Many smaller companies will find it too much hassle and no longer export.
Im currently working in Stoke i( Brexit Central ) in an SME. A third of what I sell is export to Asian markets. I sell nothing to the EU. My competitors all import from the EU if they struggle with tariffs that helps. Wheres my downside ?
I have no interest in the whys and the wherefores and the you lost get over its. We are where we are. Its what happens now that's relevant. And to anyone involved with the actualite and the facts and the reality No Deal is going to be a catastrofuck. That EPP tampers think that will be beneficial to the former Conservative & Unionist Party is almost funny.
It is what it is. The government has a majority and a collective IQ of 80. It will do what it wants, and as we've seen with Ofqual send the blame elsewhere when it goes wrong. Or at least try to. Sadly/Entertainingly there will be far more blame than they will be able to divert.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
Shame you can’t make an argument without the ad hom stuff. What on Earth is a wallet hugger? I do care what work will be available for my kids generation in a nationalistic protectionist world.
Basically your argument is that you’ve chucked a rock in the pond to disturb what you believe to be a corrupt, broken system. Again pretty negative really.
Beyond creating a crisis, forcing politicians to adapt and thereby perhaps making them reconnect you don’t really have much to say how Brexit in and of itself makes anyone’s life better. It’s a change for the sake of change.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
Why are the government throwing money at music venues? Does it matter if they go to the wall, someone else can pick up the pieces after this is all over if they are important. The arts are definitely in the none essential category in a pandemic.
Britain is in a depressing place - continued massive overreacting and nannying to covid-19 including illogical face mask wearing, issuing quarantine orders for people trying to have a weeks break abroad and the police fining parents for holding a child's birthday party in a garden (then thinking its the sort of thing to brag about on twitter) ----- coupled with a self imposed brexit that will force more form filling , more blocks in terms of people and goods movement and the loss of opportunity for young people to work and travel in Europe. The real depressing thing is that the majortity of people seem to support or at least be afraid to speak out against this obsessive governmental control .
Britain is in a depressing place - continued massive overreacting and nannying to covid-19 including illogical face mask wearing, issuing quarantine orders for people trying to have a weeks break abroad and the police fining parents for holding a child's birthday party in a garden (then thinking its the sort of thing to brag about on twitter) ----- coupled with a self imposed brexit that will force more form filling , more blocks in terms of people and goods movement and the loss of opportunity for young people to work and travel in Europe. The real depressing thing is that the majortity of people seem to support or at least be afraid to speak out against this obsessive governmental control .
I notice Oxford University parks have even closed today (with a in your face health and safety pompous sign) when at best their is moderate winds.We live in truly literally depressing times (doubled since lockdown) and its not caused by a virus but by a "something must be done twitter culture" government response that results in government taking decisions over every aspect of individual life all in the name of "saving life" - how about living life ? Or is that too hard to measure unlike deaths . Can people remember we normally in any year have 1,600 deaths every day ?
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
If you think the current government with its jobs and cash for cronies and donors represents a "change on a corrupt corporatist system of government" then I would politely suggest that you're not paying attention. The offer to the "Red Wall" will be the same as in 2016 - blame everything on foreigners. The Tories have nothing else to give them.
AS it happens thats not what I think.
Then it's not obvious that Brexit has delivered what you thought it would. Brexit is an elite project, funded by ultra-rich international donors who wanted to remove checks on corporate power. The idea that it will do anything for neglected Northern voters is absurd. Anyway, it's happening, we all have to make the most of it. For Labour, that will consist mostly of pointing out its failures and benefiting from voters' anger at the next election.
given you dont actually know what I think thats a brave set of assumptions.
On the record I have said the establishment will still be there but the change will be its room for manouevre is now severely restricted and it has to engage with the elctorate by finding a new national consensus. Were still about 5 years off that imo. Which is why we have Boris and Sir Keir Bland pretending they give a shit.
But I suspect the underlying tectonic plates are shifting. The Tories are moving more towards working man patriotism whice Labour is moving more towrads the self righteous middle classes.
By any account thats a shift in the elctoral landscape.
The idea that Cummings and Co are interested in any form of national consensus is delusional. Indeed there may well no longer be a single nation.
WTO Brexit will benefit the SE corporate economy. The biggest jobs boost will be for people who can manage the new complexity of import and export. Many smaller companies will find it too much hassle and no longer export.
Im currently working in Stoke i( Brexit Central ) in an SME. A third of what I sell is export to Asian markets. I sell nothing to the EU. My competitors all import from the EU if they struggle with tariffs that helps. Wheres my downside ?
Indeed. Tearing up every trading agreement we have including the ones we have with Asian countries will have no impact at all.
Brexit shmexit... other than the extremists and obsessives, people are just tired of it all by now. Without movement on fish then WTO it shall be. Which will prove at a macro level to be a storm in a teacup. Still time for a compromise if Mutti steps in but at this point I’m not sure anyone much cares either way.
That sounds about right. It's old news, and there's not going to be a deal because the relatively loose relationship on the table isn't worth either side compromising its objectives. The EU demands close alignment (to stop the UK competing against it effectively, to assert the form of control that it expects across the whole continent, and because a successful Brexit would provide an exit plan for other members that might grow restive in future to follow,) and the UK Government has been elected under such terms that not only does it not want to give in, it couldn't yield even if it did.
Thus the Northern Ireland protocols survive - because the Government doesn't want to stir the hornet's nest on the peace process, the province is of peripheral value to it, and a hard border would wreck its relationship with the Americans - but beyond that there's not much else left to be discussed.
This is just the logical conclusion to everything that's happened since Cameron tried to negotiate a new relationship with the EU from within, and came away with nothing. At every stage the EU raises the hand and expects the UK to cave, but in the end the UK (other than in the special case of the Irish border, where it has sufficient motivation to give in) ends up not doing so, and is therefore pushed further and further away. And so, having started out basically wanting some modest tweaks to migration policy, Britain has ultimately ended up outside all of the EU's structures, whilst the EU has seen its north-western flank fall into the sea, taking its largest city and one of its key member states with it, and its project to unite the continent has been destroyed.
I would say that the moral of this story is all about the damage that inflexibility and an unwillingness to compromise can do, but then again the UK Government keeps throwing money and powers at Scotland and a fat lot of good that's done it. Perhaps, instead, the real story here is about the inevitable fate of those political structures that attempt to bring nations together? Sooner or later, either those nations have to merge into one seamless and virtually homogeneous whole - how many people still identify as Prussian, let alone favour secession from Germany? - or tensions between them will eventually break the whole structure apart. As with England and the EU, so with Scotland and the UK - once popular opinion in one state concludes that the centre of power is remote and acts in a manner inimical to its interests, then interest in and loyalty to the wider structure collapses and secession becomes a matter of when, not if.
Once the number of people who viewed the EU as poison, or at the very least a tedious burden that we could manage perfectly well without, passed a critical threshold then Brexit became inevitable.
Yes you’ve nailed it. The Economy Stupid has completely blinded informed opinion to the fact that self identity trumps everything. When the history is written, having separate English and Scottish football teams will be seen as the worst mistake made by British unionists. One wonders whether the success of the Olympics in 2012 was what really mattered in nudging No over the line just two years later.
Unionists would have done better to have had a state of origin type football match occasionally but all sporting endeavours should otherwise have been under the Union flag. The final throw of the dice at this point is something approaching full federalism but good luck making that work with the population domination of England. Maybe if you threw in Canada, Ireland, Oz and NZ but we’re over 100 years too late for that too.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
Make them like it?
You are Colonel Cathcart and I claim my €5
Isnt that what all our chefs and would be do gooders have been trying to do for years ?
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
And that is the attitude that ensures however hard we try we can't get over the feeling of betrayal by those who lied their way to victory.
what a daft thing to say. All sides lied, it was a crap campaign.
Daft? I have had freedoms removed from me in the name of democracy, but you have just conceded your victory was based on falsehoods. Yet you are puzzled why I remain pissed off.
But you say both sides lied, so that's alright then is it? Leave won because their lies were more convincing than Remain's lies. Now who is being daft?
Your middle sentence at the end pretty well sums up the nature of political debate. Are you new?
One point I don't hear being made is that the government's position on Ireland seriously undermines the Union between England and Scotland. Why? The most obvious argument against Scottish independence is the creation of a border post at Berwick - but since the UK government believes it can leave the EU without re-creating a border in Ireland - why should an independent Scotland that then chose to be in the EU, or customs and single market - need a border either?
The fundamental difference between these cases is that Northern Ireland is still part of the UK, so the UK Government is still responsible for looking after it, and it also has a number of incentives to compromise with the EU on its status. It doesn't want to upset the apple cart in terms of the peace settlement, Northern Ireland is not of great strategic value to it or interest to most voters in Great Britain (on the contrary, it is a burden,) and it also needs to keep the land border open to keep the Americans sweet.
In contrast, London would have almost no interest in making compromises to help an independent Scotland. I was going to say it would be just another foreign country, but that's not true: it would be a newly-minted foreign country that had divorced the rest of us after centuries of marriage, though not before a lengthy campaign of loud grievance centred on how hard done by it was. And then there are the long years of angry disputes over the division of assets and liabilities to be considered.
The prospects for a golden age of harmony do not look bright.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
Shame you can’t make an argument without the ad hom stuff. What on Earth is a wallet hugger? I do care what work will be available for my kids generation in a nationalistic protectionist world.
Basically your argument is that you’ve chucked a rock in the pond to disturb what you believe to be a corrupt, broken system. Again pretty negative really.
Beyond creating a crisis, forcing politicians to adapt and thereby perhaps making them reconnect you don’t really have much to say how Brexit in and of itself makes anyone’s life better. It’s a change for the sake of change.
The system as it was , had proved itself incapable of reform. Now it is forced to address its shortcomings. A system which over half the citizens say doesnt work for them cant be left to carry on. That change is a major positive,
I was offline most of yesterday but have caught up with world events.
Firstly and most importantly, great to see a daddy hundred from young Zak. Let’s see one from World Cup winning titan Joss today too.
Looks like the betting markets are hugely over pricing a Trump win to me. Another prediction, he will give a surprisingly gracious speech accepting defeat on the night and will not trouble the Supreme Court.
Brexit shmexit... other than the extremists and obsessives, people are just tired of it all by now. Without movement on fish then WTO it shall be. Which will prove at a macro level to be a storm in a teacup. Still time for a compromise if Mutti steps in but at this point I’m not sure anyone much cares either way.
Boris and Scotland. How extraordinary to question why he would go to Scotland on holiday? Why shouldn’t he?
The Plague... I was with Robert in thinking in April we were seeing a dead cats bounce in the markets. And back then I fully expected a second wave and was pessimistic about any vaccine. But when the facts changed, I flipped my short to a long. And I am now confident all we’ll see in health effects this winter are smallish after shocks. 2021 is going to be the start of a period of high growth and sustained productivity improvement and its going to be a bloody brilliant decade.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
Make them like it?
You are Colonel Cathcart and I claim my €5
More like James Mason in Hatter's Castle. It's perfectly good herring.
LOL @ Boris camping in a farmer's field without asking permission!
From a government that wants to criminalise trespass.
One area where Scotland has it right in that i thought you can wild camp in Scotland without owners permission. Something we should of course have in England
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
Make them like it?
You are Colonel Cathcart and I claim my €5
More like James Mason in Hatter's Castle. It's perfectly good herring.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
They tried that in the war. Brexiters ought to be forcefed on snoek and rock salmon for the rest of their lives.
I was offline most of yesterday but have caught up with world events.
Firstly and most importantly, great to see a daddy hundred from young Zak. Let’s see one from World Cup winning titan Joss today too.
Looks like the betting markets are hugely over pricing a Trump win to me. Another prediction, he will give a surprisingly gracious speech accepting defeat on the night and will not trouble the Supreme Court.
Brexit shmexit... other than the extremists and obsessives, people are just tired of it all by now. Without movement on fish then WTO it shall be. Which will prove at a macro level to be a storm in a teacup. Still time for a compromise if Mutti steps in but at this point I’m not sure anyone much cares either way.
Boris and Scotland. How extraordinary to question why he would go to Scotland on holiday? Why shouldn’t he?
The Plague... I was with Robert in thinking in April we were seeing a dead cats bounce in the markets. And back then I fully expected a second wave and was pessimistic about any vaccine. But when the facts changed, I flipped my short to a long. And I am now confident all we’ll see in health effects this winter are smallish after shocks. 2021 is going to be the start of a period of high growth and sustained productivity improvement and its going to be a bloody brilliant decade.
Nobody questioning why he went to Scotland - just slightly surprised at the choice of location/time (and that would apply to quite a few people, not just that particular PM).
Edit: also, the way in which it turned out, and, I should have perhaps stressed more, the fact it's the Mail doing a mild hatchet job on him.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
They tried that in the war. Brexiters ought to be forcefed on snoek and rock salmon for the rest of their lives.
Snoek (barracuda) is not caught in British waters.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
QED. They have nothing positive to say.
No the Remain campaign had nothing positive to say which is why you lost.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
Shame you can’t make an argument without the ad hom stuff. What on Earth is a wallet hugger? I do care what work will be available for my kids generation in a nationalistic protectionist world.
Basically your argument is that you’ve chucked a rock in the pond to disturb what you believe to be a corrupt, broken system. Again pretty negative really.
Beyond creating a crisis, forcing politicians to adapt and thereby perhaps making them reconnect you don’t really have much to say how Brexit in and of itself makes anyone’s life better. It’s a change for the sake of change.
The system as it was , had proved itself incapable of reform. Now it is forced to address its shortcomings. A system which over half the citizens say doesnt work for them cant be left to carry on. That change is a major positive,
That remains to be seen. Arguably Brexit, which put more power in the hands of Westminster/Whitehall and the Eton/Oxford clique that currently run it, has reenforced the system and made change harder.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
We love fish, just not the fish caught in our waters. As a crude generalisation, Britfish (mainly shellfish like crabs and prawns) is sold to Europe and in exchange we buy and eat Eurofish (cod for southern fish and chip shops; haddock for northern fish and chip shops).
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
They tried that in the war. Brexiters ought to be forcefed on snoek and rock salmon for the rest of their lives.
Snoek (barracuda) is not caught in British waters.
Indeed not. But it ought to be imported specially for that wartime ambience (especially as mostd of them are too young to have lived in those days). It would be politically incorrect to have whale, another 'fish' my parents told me about.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
Yes, and as a gourmet Remainer one of the benefits of Brexit is that scallops will be cheaper, and with a bit of luck scallop rakes used much less often, thereby improving the marine environment.
Brexit shmexit... other than the extremists and obsessives, people are just tired of it all by now. Without movement on fish then WTO it shall be. Which will prove at a macro level to be a storm in a teacup. Still time for a compromise if Mutti steps in but at this point I’m not sure anyone much cares either way.
That sounds about right. It's old news, and there's not going to be a deal because the relatively loose relationship on the table isn't worth either side compromising its objectives. The EU demands close alignment (to stop the UK competing against it effectively, to assert the form of control that it expects across the whole continent, and because a successful Brexit would provide an exit plan for other members that might grow restive in future to follow,) and the UK Government has been elected under such terms that not only does it not want to give in, it couldn't yield even if it did.
Thus the Northern Ireland protocols survive - because the Government doesn't want to stir the hornet's nest on the peace process, the province is of peripheral value to it, and a hard border would wreck its relationship with the Americans - but beyond that there's not much else left to be discussed.
This is just the logical conclusion to everything that's happened since Cameron tried to negotiate a new relationship with the EU from within, and came away with nothing. At every stage the EU raises the hand and expects the UK to cave, but in the end the UK (other than in the special case of the Irish border, where it has sufficient motivation to give in) ends up not doing so, and is therefore pushed further and further away. And so, having started out basically wanting some modest tweaks to migration policy, Britain has ultimately ended up outside all of the EU's structures, whilst the EU has seen its north-western flank fall into the sea, taking its largest city and one of its key member states with it, and its project to unite the continent has been destroyed.
I would say that the moral of this story is all about the damage that inflexibility and an unwillingness to compromise can do, but then again the UK Government keeps throwing money and powers at Scotland and a fat lot of good that's done it. Perhaps, instead, the real story here is about the inevitable fate of those political structures that attempt to bring nations together? Sooner or later, either those nations have to merge into one seamless and virtually homogeneous whole - how many people still identify as Prussian, let alone favour secession from Germany? - or tensions between them will eventually break the whole structure apart. As with England and the EU, so with Scotland and the UK - once popular opinion in one state concludes that the centre of power is remote and acts in a manner inimical to its interests, then interest in and loyalty to the wider structure collapses and secession becomes a matter of when, not if.
Once the number of people who viewed the EU as poison, or at the very least a tedious burden that we could manage perfectly well without, passed a critical threshold then Brexit became inevitable.
Yes you’ve nailed it. The Economy Stupid has completely blinded informed opinion to the fact that self identity trumps everything. When the history is written, having separate English and Scottish football teams will be seen as the worst mistake made by British unionists. One wonders whether the success of the Olympics in 2012 was what really mattered in nudging No over the line just two years later.
Unionists would have done better to have had a state of origin type football match occasionally but all sporting endeavours should otherwise have been under the Union flag. The final throw of the dice at this point is something approaching full federalism but good luck making that work with the population domination of England. Maybe if you threw in Canada, Ireland, Oz and NZ but we’re over 100 years too late for that too.
I don't think it's all, or even mostly, about football. Though it would be nice to be on the same sporting side more often. But even when we are, and the hero is Scottish, we see complete inventions like 'When Andy wins he's called British, and when loses he's called Scottish', which at least the Nats here had the good grace to admit was utterly baseless - eventually. Doesn't stop it being common currency up here.
I also don't think it's really the constitution, though it would be nice if it were neater.
Betting post -- if you are betting on deal or no deal, check the terms. Last time we had a thread on this, any sector-specific deals meant "yes" even in the absence of an overarching deal.
I was offline most of yesterday but have caught up with world events.
Firstly and most importantly, great to see a daddy hundred from young Zak. Let’s see one from World Cup winning titan Joss today too.
Looks like the betting markets are hugely over pricing a Trump win to me. Another prediction, he will give a surprisingly gracious speech accepting defeat on the night and will not trouble the Supreme Court.
Brexit shmexit... other than the extremists and obsessives, people are just tired of it all by now. Without movement on fish then WTO it shall be. Which will prove at a macro level to be a storm in a teacup. Still time for a compromise if Mutti steps in but at this point I’m not sure anyone much cares either way.
Boris and Scotland. How extraordinary to question why he would go to Scotland on holiday? Why shouldn’t he?
The Plague... I was with Robert in thinking in April we were seeing a dead cats bounce in the markets. And back then I fully expected a second wave and was pessimistic about any vaccine. But when the facts changed, I flipped my short to a long. And I am now confident all we’ll see in health effects this winter are smallish after shocks. 2021 is going to be the start of a period of high growth and sustained productivity improvement and its going to be a bloody brilliant decade.
Nobody questioning why he went to Scotland - just slightly surprised at the choice of location/time (and that would apply to quite a few people, not just that particular PM).
Edit: also, the way in which it turned out, and, I should have perhaps stressed more, the fact it's the Mail doing a mild hatchet job on him.
The Mail is like Michael Caine’s explanation of the Joker: some men just like to watch the world burn.
Its success (like most media) stems from feeding the darker passions. Fear, envy, anger, mistrust. There’s an enormous amount to be optimistic and joyful about but we rarely hear about it from the traditional media.
Its obvious it needs suspending just from the maths but pensioners need to share a lot of the burden for covid-19 and Brexit anyway
I do not see that the share of the burden ought to be excessively shared by pensioners for either of these things - that would be undemocratic. Collective decisions made by the people have consequences that should be shared equally regardless of how a group may have voted. I am a pensioner who voted remain - do I get an exemption? On Covid 19 why should pensioners get a bigger share of the burden? Are you saying parents with sick children should pay more tax because they use the health system more or because they use the schools? Utter nonsense.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
Yes, and as a gourmet Remainer one of the benefits of Brexit is that scallops will be cheaper, and with a bit of luck scallop rakes used much less often, thereby improving the marine environment.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
Yes, and as a gourmet Remainer one of the benefits of Brexit is that scallops will be cheaper, and with a bit of luck scallop rakes used much less often, thereby improving the marine environment.
Assuming the inshore fishermen haven't gone bust for lack of exports - but yes, I agree.
Why are the government throwing money at music venues? Does it matter if they go to the wall, someone else can pick up the pieces after this is all over if they are important. The arts are definitely in the none essential category in a pandemic.
On the contrary, the arts are why we live. Life without sports, music, theatre and dance would be a very dull thing indeed.
Yes, but if we end up eating more herring, mackerel and kippers, and fewer battered fish, that would be one of the very few positive benefits.
It would be, but actually fish takes deep frying fairly well - as well as anything. Keeps a lot of its nutrients. It shouldn't be eaten all the time obvs.
Surely the comedy line is from the Express today - if there is No Deal its the EU's fault for refusing to yield to our expectations that if Britain is Strong they will fold their long stated and unyielding position.
Its obvious it needs suspending just from the maths but pensioners need to share a lot of the burden for covid-19 and Brexit anyway
I do not see that the share of the burden ought to be excessively shared by pensioners for either of these things - that would be undemocratic. Collective decisions made by the people have consequences that should be shared equally regardless of how a group may have voted. I am a pensioner who voted remain - do I get an exemption? On Covid 19 why should pensioners get a bigger share of the burden? Are you saying parents with sick children should pay more tax because they use the health system more or because they use the schools? Utter nonsense.
pensioners have on average lot of the wealth of the country - that needs to be used first - when they die why should it be left as a random inheritance to their kids when others get none. the biggest problem we have is that pensioners are now on average wealthier than the younger population and so inequality in inheritance is going to get worse. An ideal excuse to get rid of a ruinous triple pension lock that given most pensioners voted for the economy reducing brexit
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
Yes, and as a gourmet Remainer one of the benefits of Brexit is that scallops will be cheaper, and with a bit of luck scallop rakes used much less often, thereby improving the marine environment.
Mr. Away, I'm inclined to agree, it could even be sold as pensioners helping to share the cost of very pricey measures taken primarily to protect them.
Mr. B2, that's perfect. As Boris Johnson is a paragon of integrity, consistency, and dignity, honour will compel him to immediately resign.
I hope it is a very painful No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
Remain lost, get over it.
That’s all Brexiteers have. We won. That’s it.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
I see the r rate for Remainerdepression is back on the rise.
He has a point. What's it all for? Other than fish obviously.
Who are we going to sell the fish to? We are closing off our main market for goods.
we can always eat more of it ourselves.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Brits do not like fish all that much. It is why we sell our fish.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
Actually Brits love fish but they only like a resticted range. A bit of education would do wonders to widening what we like.
Yes, and as a gourmet Remainer one of the benefits of Brexit is that scallops will be cheaper, and with a bit of luck scallop rakes used much less often, thereby improving the marine environment.
Bit shellfish.
OK, I will clam up on the subject.
Quite, we had better stop before the Brexiters get all crabbit.
Mr. Pioneers, I don't understand why even pro-EU types would think having the EU continue to be able to impose laws on us after we leave is remotely acceptable.
Comments
I think Starmer has this right. He's being measured and giving Johnson rope, which the latter is hanging himself, his cabinet and rag tag with.
No Deal totally owned by this government and its supporters, but I suspect that Cummings won't allow that.
All of the 1.01 Mike Pence has been taken.
Is this the current discussion page, or are there other options?
While the electorate quite understand that point, as a governing principle, it’s somewhat lacking. As a negotiating stance with the EU, it’s entirely beside the point.
No articulation of any benefits of Brexit, no adaptation to the current circumstances. No attempt to win anyone over or find a positive case.
Just we won, we will do it, to hell with the consequences and damn the rest of you.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/21/fox-news-joe-biden-donald-trump
I’ve heard many other arguments. The main one being that if we slip over into 2021 we are going into another budgetary cycle of the EU, including their (then unknown magnitude) Covid bailout fund.
One of the only silver linings of Covid has been the absence of rehashed and tired old arguments about Brexit.
https://twitter.com/BRYN_BORANGA/status/1297052548160016385?s=20
Firstly and most importantly, great to see a daddy hundred from young Zak. Let’s see one from World Cup winning titan Joss today too.
Looks like the betting markets are hugely over pricing a Trump win to me. Another prediction, he will give a surprisingly gracious speech accepting defeat on the night and will not trouble the Supreme Court.
Brexit shmexit... other than the extremists and obsessives, people are just tired of it all by now. Without movement on fish then WTO it shall be. Which will prove at a macro level to be a storm in a teacup. Still time for a compromise if Mutti steps in but at this point I’m not sure anyone much cares either way.
Boris and Scotland. How extraordinary to question why he would go to Scotland on holiday? Why shouldn’t he?
The Plague... I was with Robert in thinking in April we were seeing a dead cats bounce in the markets. And back then I fully expected a second wave and was pessimistic about any vaccine. But when the facts changed, I flipped my short to a long. And I am now confident all we’ll see in health effects this winter are smallish after shocks. 2021 is going to be the start of a period of high growth and sustained productivity improvement and its going to be a bloody brilliant decade.
My position on Brexit was the Remain campaign was overegging the risks and failing to make a reasonable case. I dont think the economic impact was anywhere near the "well all eat grass" analysis from Osborne and co. Nor do any of the scare stories stand up to much scrutiny post the vote. Who's championing free movement now when we are looking at 2 million unemployed in the next 6 months ?
I also said everyone was debating the last war and not the next, that imo we would have something else which challenge us on the economy. At the time I expected that to be Trumps trade wars or an oil crisis, CV19 has more than exceeded the prediction.
As for positives wallet huggers like yourself worry only about money. I voted out to force a change on a corrupt corporatist system of government which suited the South East and left the rest of the country to rot. Ive got what I voted for. The red wall has collapsed, the electorate is in flux, politicians are having to rethink how they connect with the electorate and longer term that will be better for national cohesion and the prospertiy of all.
A big positive.
The offer to the "Red Wall" will be the same as in 2016 - blame everything on foreigners. The Tories have nothing else to give them.
We’ve left the political structures, we’ve overturned the concept of European citizenship and free movement, we’ve forever closed the door on currency union and we’ve accepted the end of frictionless trade with exit from the customs union. Debate all day the pros and cons of this. But whether we sign a limited free trade deal after that won’t be noticed by most people. Better to have one of course but it’s not going to be the main factor that drives wealth creation or destruction this decade.
But you say both sides lied, so that's alright then is it? Leave won because their lies were more convincing than Remain's lies. Now who is being daft?
Brexit is an elite project, funded by ultra-rich international donors who wanted to remove checks on corporate power. The idea that it will do anything for neglected Northern voters is absurd.
Anyway, it's happening, we all have to make the most of it. For Labour, that will consist mostly of pointing out its failures and benefiting from voters' anger at the next election.
People wanted Brexit. The silver bullet magic wand that fixes all their problems. That tells foreign types who's boss. That restores job prospects and makes their hard living easier.
And they could still have that. Our government could have taken the mandate to leave the EU and have left the EU. Instead they have opted to imagine that the EEA is the EU. The CU is the EU. And so we will find ourselves falling from all of them and bringing utter chaos to the lives of Brexiteers.
"This isn't the Brexit I voted for" has already been posted on Daily Mail comment boards and heavily upvoted. People realise to their horror they are about to be massively inconvenienced. Pay a huge cost. Have worse lives. All the while whilst the HYUFD wing of the English Populist Party patronises them with absurd PR about how they should check how fucked they are, change their plans, and go fuck themselves.
They are not going to stay loyal to Shagger.
Things to do, places to go!
You don't cure a government of incompetence by giving it a massively complex task to do.
On the record I have said the establishment will still be there but the change will be its room for manouevre is now severely restricted and it has to engage with the elctorate by finding a new national consensus. Were still about 5 years off that imo. Which is why we have Boris and Sir Keir Bland pretending they give a shit.
But I suspect the underlying tectonic plates are shifting. The Tories are moving more towards working man patriotism whice Labour is moving more towrads the self righteous middle classes.
By any account thats a shift in the elctoral landscape.
It will vary our diet from eating grass.
Surely the question of the currency is the biggest obstacle to Scottish independence - it's on another level to Brexit.
Thus the Northern Ireland protocols survive - because the Government doesn't want to stir the hornet's nest on the peace process, the province is of peripheral value to it, and a hard border would wreck its relationship with the Americans - but beyond that there's not much else left to be discussed.
This is just the logical conclusion to everything that's happened since Cameron tried to negotiate a new relationship with the EU from within, and came away with nothing. At every stage the EU raises the hand and expects the UK to cave, but in the end the UK (other than in the special case of the Irish border, where it has sufficient motivation to give in) ends up not doing so, and is therefore pushed further and further away. And so, having started out basically wanting some modest tweaks to migration policy, Britain has ultimately ended up outside all of the EU's structures, whilst the EU has seen its north-western flank fall into the sea, taking its largest city and one of its key member states with it, and its project to unite the continent has been destroyed.
I would say that the moral of this story is all about the damage that inflexibility and an unwillingness to compromise can do, but then again the UK Government keeps throwing money and powers at Scotland and a fat lot of good that's done it. Perhaps, instead, the real story here is about the inevitable fate of those political structures that attempt to bring nations together? Sooner or later, either those nations have to merge into one seamless and virtually homogeneous whole - how many people still identify as Prussian, let alone favour secession from Germany? - or tensions between them will eventually break the whole structure apart. As with England and the EU, so with Scotland and the UK - once popular opinion in one state concludes that the centre of power is remote and acts in a manner inimical to its interests, then interest in and loyalty to the wider structure collapses and secession becomes a matter of when, not if.
Once the number of people who viewed the EU as poison, or at the very least a tedious burden that we could manage perfectly well without, passed a critical threshold then Brexit became inevitable.
Or does "... longer term ..." apply to some dim and distant future in which your great-grandkids will benefit whilst you and the next few generations are prepared to "take one for team" as the saying goes?
WTO Brexit will benefit the SE corporate economy. The biggest jobs boost will be for people who can manage the new complexity of import and export. Many smaller companies will find it too much hassle and no longer export.
Now, if we could develop a wild McDonalds burger that could be harvested (ideally living in a clamshell style bap) then no doubt we would eat every single one...
It is what it is. The government has a majority and a collective IQ of 80. It will do what it wants, and as we've seen with Ofqual send the blame elsewhere when it goes wrong. Or at least try to. Sadly/Entertainingly there will be far more blame than they will be able to divert.
Navalny arrives in Berlin for treatment.
Let's hope for success.
Basically your argument is that you’ve chucked a rock in the pond to disturb what you believe to be a corrupt, broken system. Again pretty negative really.
Beyond creating a crisis, forcing politicians to adapt and thereby perhaps making them reconnect you don’t really have much to say how Brexit in and of itself makes anyone’s life better. It’s a change for the sake of change.
You are Colonel Cathcart and I claim my €5
The real depressing thing is that the majortity of people seem to support or at least be afraid to speak out against this obsessive governmental control .
The real depressing thing is that the majortity of people seem to support or at least be afraid to speak out against this obsessive governmental control .
I notice Oxford University parks have even closed today (with a in your face health and safety pompous sign) when at best their is moderate winds.We live in truly literally depressing times (doubled since lockdown) and its not caused by a virus but by a "something must be done twitter culture" government response that results in government taking decisions over every aspect of individual life all in the name of "saving life" - how about living life ? Or is that too hard to measure unlike deaths . Can people remember we normally in any year have 1,600 deaths every day ?
The key word in your post is "currently"
Unionists would have done better to have had a state of origin type football match occasionally but all sporting endeavours should otherwise have been under the Union flag. The final throw of the dice at this point is something approaching full federalism but good luck making that work with the population domination of England. Maybe if you threw in Canada, Ireland, Oz and NZ but we’re over 100 years too late for that too.
In contrast, London would have almost no interest in making compromises to help an independent Scotland. I was going to say it would be just another foreign country, but that's not true: it would be a newly-minted foreign country that had divorced the rest of us after centuries of marriage, though not before a lengthy campaign of loud grievance centred on how hard done by it was. And then there are the long years of angry disputes over the division of assets and liabilities to be considered.
The prospects for a golden age of harmony do not look bright.
From a government that wants to criminalise trespass.
Edit: also, the way in which it turned out, and, I should have perhaps stressed more, the fact it's the Mail doing a mild hatchet job on him.
I also don't think it's really the constitution, though it would be nice if it were neater.
Its success (like most media) stems from feeding the darker passions. Fear, envy, anger, mistrust. There’s an enormous amount to be optimistic and joyful about but we rarely hear about it from the traditional media.
And on that note:
https://twitter.com/PatrickTimmons1/status/1296914943527325700?s=09
Mr. B2, that's perfect. As Boris Johnson is a paragon of integrity, consistency, and dignity, honour will compel him to immediately resign.