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  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Scott_xP said:
    Johnson and Cummings aren't setting the agenda. Farage is setting it.

    If there's a cave in, the tories can look out. Nige will be back with a narrative of betrayal and a candidate in every seat. And ten points in the polls before you can say Arron Banks. This time for good.

    That's the tories real nightmare. That's what is really driving these talks.

    Rentoul just doesn;t want to admit it.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,094
    My EU prediction: The EU will back down on fish, which was the plan all along, so the UK can say "See, we've won something!".
  • HYUFD said:

    In the sense that Gorbachev ultimately led to Putin, in which case we could even end up with a Farage premiership in England on the same trend

    Possibly we could. But not in 2024.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,277

    Malc, do you even think about what you're posting sometimes? Do you think the image of the SM is more important than the livelihoods of the much lampooned 'prosecco and carmakers' of the EU? I don't think you believe that for a second - you're doing what you constantly accuse others of doing to the Scottish Government - anything that comes from a UK perspective, you instantly put the boot in.
    It's not the image as such that matters, but the integrity of the single market is far more important to the EU than getting a little bit more or less trade with the UK.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    Would you shift Burns down to number three, or drop him from the team entirely?
    I’d be tempted to move him to 3. But he could do with a few more runs as well. Salt, Lawrence and Bracey are waiting in the wings.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    Cyclefree said:

    Doesn’t it show the stupidity of having an algorithm at all when you are trying to deal with individual outcomes? Use of an algorithm is a category error.
    Yes.

    What does it say about how far we can trust our exams systems when they are regulated by people who can make such a simple error?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Possibly we could. But not in 2024.

    If the tories get a hard brexit, Farage will never be PM. There just isn;t enough grist for the mill. There won't be enough grievance, enough anger, enough of a stink of betrayal, enough of a sense the ordinary people of Britain have been sold yet again.

    What Farage needs is the narrative of a 'bad' brexit. A weak brexit. A betrayal brexit.

    If we get that, well that's when the tories will be in real, real bother. And that's why we won;t get it.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    I wonder if he said that in 2009?

    Truthfully, as with Labour, the size of the debt is less of a problem than the government’s iron determination to keep adding to it.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,634
    edited August 2020
    @HYUFD Putin is a highly intelligent, highly capable, ex-KGB officer. Farage is a moron.

    They are nothing alike.
  • Johnson and Cummings aren't setting the agenda. Farage is setting it.

    If there's a cave in, the tories can look out. Nige will be back with a narrative of betrayal and a candidate in every seat. And ten points in the polls before you can say Arron Banks. This time for good.

    That's the tories real nightmare. That's what is really driving these talks.

    Rentoul just doesn;t want to admit it.

    Yep, I think you are correct. It is all about Tory terror of Farage taking 10% to 15% of their vote, and 20% to 30% of their MPs. Such patriotism!

  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    All under control at 0.1%.

    £2trn x 0.1% = £2bn interest per year bargain!

    Rishi leading the way again!!
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,277

    @HYUFD Putin is a highly intelligent ex-KGB officer. Farage is a moron.

    They are nothing alike.

    how can you be sure that Farage isn't also a highly intelligent ex-KGB officer?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    @HYUFD Putin is a highly intelligent, highly capable, ex-KGB officer. Farage is a moron.

    They are nothing alike.

    I note you only draw the contrast with the ‘highly intelligent’ bit.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,634

    If the tories get a hard brexit, Farage will never be PM. There just isn;t enough grist for the mill. There won't be enough grievance, enough anger, enough of a stink of betrayal, enough of a sense the ordinary people of Britain have been sold yet again.

    What Farage needs is the narrative of a 'bad' brexit. A weak brexit. A betrayal brexit.

    If we get that, well that's when the tories will be in real, real bother. And that's why we won;t get it.

    There is no “true Brexit”. Any deal will be criticized, and “no deal” will be criticized unless it causes zero practical everyday problems for people.

    We will see.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,762

    If the tories get a hard brexit, Farage will never be PM. There just isn;t enough grist for the mill. There won't be enough grievance, enough anger, enough of a stink of betrayal, enough of a sense the ordinary people of Britain have been sold yet again.

    What Farage needs is the narrative of a 'bad' brexit. A weak brexit. A betrayal brexit.

    If we get that, well that's when the tories will be in real, real bother. And that's why we won;t get it.

    If we get a hard Brexit with all the economic and social pain that will ensue, I'm sure Nigel will sniff out plenty of opportunities.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,090
    Cyclefree said:

    Doesn’t it show the stupidity of having an algorithm at all when you are trying to deal with individual outcomes? Use of an algorithm is a category error.
    The political decision was taken to use an algorithm so that the results in aggregate would be comparable with the years before and after. It was decided that this was more important than the accuracy of the results for individuals.

    The algorithm did what was asked of it just fine.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,062
    Nigelb said:

    It is; the statistics, and the improvements from this abysmal level are astonishing:
    ...Researchers studied six of the participants over 29 weeks in the programme, who prior to the scheme had been responsible for at least 541 crimes at an estimated cost to the public purse of £2.1m....
    During the Coalition government, for a period, the system of bail-on-top-of-bail - where someone would be on bail, commit another crime and get bailed again, was pretty much halted.

    Crime levels collapsed, because the small number of habitual criminals, who commit multiple crimes per day, rapidly wound up on remand, awaiting trial.

    In Wiltshire, IIRC, refusing bail to one burglar dropped the burglary rate by a double digit percentage. His modus operandi had been to go into a street in a commuter town, wait for people to go to work, and then burgle his way down the street.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    kamski said:

    how can you be sure that Farage isn't also a highly intelligent ex-KGB officer?
    Gallowgate said nothing about Farage not being ex-KGB.

    Of course, that could be taken as a suggestion he is still an FSB officer.

    Has he been seen round Salisbury recently? Or does he in spire people in other ways?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    If the tories get a hard brexit, Farage will never be PM. There just isn;t enough grist for the mill. There won't be enough grievance, enough anger, enough of a stink of betrayal, enough of a sense the ordinary people of Britain have been sold yet again.

    What Farage needs is the narrative of a 'bad' brexit. A weak brexit. A betrayal brexit.

    If we get that, well that's when the tories will be in real, real bother. And that's why we won;t get it.

    Agreed, if the Tories went for an EEA soft Brexit then lots of Leaver Tories could defect to the Brexit Party again and if the Tories allowed indyref2 and Yes won Farage could also benefit from the English nationalist backlash.

    Hence Boris will go for a hard Brexit while also continuing to ban indyref2 while he remains PM
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kamski said:

    how can you be sure that Farage isn't also a highly intelligent ex-KGB officer?
    LOL
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,634
    So my university’s COVID plan is as follows:

    Students will be on site for 3 hours a week, and teaching staff will only be allowed on site when they are teaching.

    Sounds grim.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited August 2020
    Sky have just shown Colin Graves on the box.

    How I didn’t smash my TV I don’t know.

    Man makes Farage look good. Heck, he even makes Giles Clarke look good.

    He was shooting his stupid fat mouth off again the other day about how the non-Test counties are no use and should lose first class status. Even dafter idea than the Hundred. Has he not noticed that there are players developed or contracted to Somerset, Sussex and Leicestershire in this side but none from Middlesex?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    On the scope of TfL, historically the London Passenger Transport Area created as London Transport’s operating area in 1933 extended well past the modern borders of London, deep into the surrounding Home Counties. Older London and the South-East PBers like me may remember the green “country buses” operated by LT until 1970 and then by the nationalized National Bus Company until privatization in the late 80s.

    But TfL doesn’t in fact operate so much public transport itself: just the Underground and the Woolwich ferry. All the other rail services like the Croydon Tramlink, DLR, Overground and Crossrail are let out as “concessions” to private operators. The differences from the National Rail franchise is that TfL controls the branding (look very closely next time you travel by DLR for instance and you might spot who the real operator is), and TfL sets the fares and collects the revenue, merely paying a set fee to the concession operator. The concession model has become so successful that the devolved administrations that control their local rail franchises (Scotland, Wales and the Liverpool City Region) have adopted it too (in Northern Ireland public transport was never privatized and remains directly state owned and operated). The Tyne and Wear Metro has also been moved from a public ownership and operation model to a concession, I think the only other rail systems in direct public ownership and operation in Britain are the Glasgow Subway and the Blackpool Tramway.

    London’s buses were originally privatized under a competitive franchising model in the 80s, but this has gradually transformed into something close to a concession model over time as the original model proved not to be viable. The new City Regions can now apply for similar powers over local bus services as TfL, and IIRC Greater Manchester has done so.

    It’s probably inevitable that the remaining private passenger rail franchises will become concessions in due course, and effectively they already have under the emergency arrangements for the pandemic; they would have all gone bust and stopped operating by now if not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    So my university’s COVID plan is as follows:

    Students will be on site for 3 hours a week, and teaching staff will only be allowed on site when they are teaching.

    Sounds grim.

    If that applies to science, they’re going to find lab work an absolute git.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,634
    HYUFD said:

    Agreed, if the Tories went for an EEA soft Brexit then lots of Leaver Tories could defect to the Brexit Party again and if the Tories allowed indyref2 and Yes won Farage could also benefit from the English nationalist backlash.

    Hence Boris will go for a hard Brexit while also continuing to ban indyref2 while he remains PM
    If Boris really wanted a hard Brexit we wouldn’t be desperately trying to get a deal by September.

    Any concessions, any payments, any constraints, will be criticized.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,364
    CatMan said:

    My EU prediction: The EU will back down on fish, which was the plan all along, so the UK can say "See, we've won something!".

    The obsession with fish is seriously weird. Its about the same size and use to the UK economy as timber or Premier League football. So yes, I am sure we can eventually win on fish, then have to spend millions on boat patrols to police it.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    HYUFD said:

    Agreed, if the Tories went for an EEA soft Brexit then lots of Leaver Tories could defect to the Brexit Party again and if the Tories allowed indyref2 and Yes won Farage could also benefit from the English nationalist backlash.

    Hence Boris will go for a hard Brexit while also continuing to ban indyref2 while he remains PM
    Not only that, but the defections would be for good this time. The tories would never win the trust of these voters back.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,247
    CatMan said:

    My EU prediction: The EU will back down on fish, which was the plan all along, so the UK can say "See, we've won something!".

    We can't eat all our fish and they can can't catch all our fish. And it always has to be done sustainably.

    It's basically about jobs and there is the scope for the compromise.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,634
    @rpjs Nexus who operate the Tyne and Wear Metro are now state owned. DB pulled out.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Not reckless. Its only a short deadline that concentrates minds and leads to compromises. We could have a ten year deadline - and in nine years, six months from now we still wouldn't have an agreement and people would be bleating on about the impending deadline.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,247
    rpjs said:

    On the scope of TfL, historically the London Passenger Transport Area created as London Transport’s operating area in 1933 extended well past the modern borders of London, deep into the surrounding Home Counties. Older London and the South-East PBers like me may remember the green “country buses” operated by LT until 1970 and then by the nationalized National Bus Company until privatization in the late 80s.

    But TfL doesn’t in fact operate so much public transport itself: just the Underground and the Woolwich ferry. All the other rail services like the Croydon Tramlink, DLR, Overground and Crossrail are let out as “concessions” to private operators. The differences from the National Rail franchise is that TfL controls the branding (look very closely next time you travel by DLR for instance and you might spot who the real operator is), and TfL sets the fares and collects the revenue, merely paying a set fee to the concession operator. The concession model has become so successful that the devolved administrations that control their local rail franchises (Scotland, Wales and the Liverpool City Region) have adopted it too (in Northern Ireland public transport was never privatized and remains directly state owned and operated). The Tyne and Wear Metro has also been moved from a public ownership and operation model to a concession, I think the only other rail systems in direct public ownership and operation in Britain are the Glasgow Subway and the Blackpool Tramway.

    London’s buses were originally privatized under a competitive franchising model in the 80s, but this has gradually transformed into something close to a concession model over time as the original model proved not to be viable. The new City Regions can now apply for similar powers over local bus services as TfL, and IIRC Greater Manchester has done so.

    It’s probably inevitable that the remaining private passenger rail franchises will become concessions in due course, and effectively they already have under the emergency arrangements for the pandemic; they would have all gone bust and stopped operating by now if not.

    Excellent post. That's spot on.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,634

    We can't eat all our fish and they can can't catch all our fish. And it always has to be done sustainably.

    It's basically about jobs and there is the scope for the compromise.
    Imagine eating fish in 2020? We’re all vegan now remember.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    The obsession with fish is seriously weird. Its about the same size and use to the UK economy as timber or Premier League football. So yes, I am sure we can eventually win on fish, then have to spend millions on boat patrols to police it.
    It will be our sole victory in negotiations if we do.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,247

    @HYUFD Putin is a highly intelligent, highly capable, ex-KGB officer. Farage is a moron.

    They are nothing alike.

    Does Farage go around brutally murdering his opponents and invading other countries?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited August 2020
    rpjs said:

    On the scope of TfL, historically the London Passenger Transport Area created as London Transport’s operating area in 1933 extended well past the modern borders of London, deep into the surrounding Home Counties. Older London and the South-East PBers like me may remember the green “country buses” operated by LT until 1970 and then by the nationalized National Bus Company until privatization in the late 80s.

    But TfL doesn’t in fact operate so much public transport itself: just the Underground and the Woolwich ferry. All the other rail services like the Croydon Tramlink, DLR, Overground and Crossrail are let out as “concessions” to private operators. The differences from the National Rail franchise is that TfL controls the branding (look very closely next time you travel by DLR for instance and you might spot who the real operator is), and TfL sets the fares and collects the revenue, merely paying a set fee to the concession operator. The concession model has become so successful that the devolved administrations that control their local rail franchises (Scotland, Wales and the Liverpool City Region) have adopted it too (in Northern Ireland public transport was never privatized and remains directly state owned and operated). The Tyne and Wear Metro has also been moved from a public ownership and operation model to a concession, I think the only other rail systems in direct public ownership and operation in Britain are the Glasgow Subway and the Blackpool Tramway.

    London’s buses were originally privatized under a competitive franchising model in the 80s, but this has gradually transformed into something close to a concession model over time as the original model proved not to be viable. The new City Regions can now apply for similar powers over local bus services as TfL, and IIRC Greater Manchester has done so.

    It’s probably inevitable that the remaining private passenger rail franchises will become concessions in due course, and effectively they already have under the emergency arrangements for the pandemic; they would have all gone bust and stopped operating by now if not.

    WCML was as crowded as ever when I indulged in my guilty pleasure of going trainspotting at Rugeley Trent Valley.

    Yes, the expresses were emptier than usual, but they were still fairly full. Much fuller than a few weeks ago. And I think freight has increased if anything.

    Local services to London and Crewe were also surprisingly busy, although you could have put the passengers on the Chase Line in the back of a Mini.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,288
    edited August 2020

    The obsession with fish is seriously weird. Its about the same size and use to the UK economy as timber or Premier League football. So yes, I am sure we can eventually win on fish, then have to spend millions on boat patrols to police it.
    That I do doubt. A government that is interested in presentation rather than substance and policies rather than implementation isn’t going to do anything more on enforcement than the bare minimum needed to deliver Boris’s photo opportunity.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,762
    HYUFD said:

    Agreed, if the Tories went for an EEA soft Brexit then lots of Leaver Tories could defect to the Brexit Party again and if the Tories allowed indyref2 and Yes won Farage could also benefit from the English nationalist backlash.

    Hence Boris will go for a hard Brexit while also continuing to ban indyref2 while he remains PM
    Seems strange for 'English nationalists' to be throwing a hissy fit over a 'Yes' vote for Scottish independence. Isn't that something of a contradiction in terms?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,247

    Does Farage go around brutally murdering his opponents and invading other countries?
    Honestly, I'm no fan of Farage but posts like this really take the biscuit.

    We see it with comparisons with President Xi as well: there's no one worse than a British Brexiteer, because that's who they know and who piss them off. It's laughable.

    No doubt Farage would have been far worse than Chairman Mao or Stalin had they been around today.
  • The obsession with fish is seriously weird. Its about the same size and use to the UK economy as timber or Premier League football. So yes, I am sure we can eventually win on fish, then have to spend millions on boat patrols to police it.
    Its our sovereign natural resource and they want it - and we want control of it. That is what independent nations do, they control their natural resources.

    If there were major gold reserves underground would you expect us to offer access to them without a major quid pro quo in return?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    Does Farage go around brutally murdering his opponents and invading other countries?
    You seem to be agreeing with Gallowgate there, actually.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,849

    Not reckless. Its only a short deadline that concentrates minds and leads to compromises. We could have a ten year deadline - and in nine years, six months from now we still wouldn't have an agreement and people would be bleating on about the impending deadline.
    You mean that Johnson cleverly imposed a short deadline on himself so that he would be forced to capitulate, like last time?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,239
    edited August 2020

    The political decision was taken to use an algorithm so that the results in aggregate would be comparable with the years before and after. It was decided that this was more important than the accuracy of the results for individuals.

    The algorithm did what was asked of it just fine.
    It was, in principle, better than that - because the teachers` pupil rankings were laid on top of the school grade spread data. People seem to be forgetting that.

    Having had a bit of time to reflect, I`d say that the algorithm approach was doomed in practice because of three things:

    1) the CAGs (school grade predictions) were made known (i.e. they were not kept confidential). As soon as there was a second set of grade data out there - and pupils/parents could see that they were higher! - then out comes the sob stories and media attention and campaigning,
    2) that the algorithm couldn`t be applied to very small pupil cohorts, and so the CAGs were awarded to those lucky pupils instead, was an error. It skewed the data in favour of private schools, if only slightly, which was a bad look,
    3) Scotland caved. It was untenable for Scottich pupils to be in a favourable position compared to the rest of the union.

    It was only a matter of time until the algorithm approach was junked, and with it any consistency with previous years.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    If Boris really wanted a hard Brexit we wouldn’t be desperately trying to get a deal by September.

    Any concessions, any payments, any constraints, will be criticized.
    Personally I think Boris could get away with regulatory alignment within a FTA provided it still ends free movement, allows our own trade deals and regains control of our fishing waters.

    Any further concessions beyond that and there would be serious Tory to Brexit Party leakage again
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    Seems strange for 'English nationalists' to be throwing a hissy fit over a 'Yes' vote for Scottish independence. Isn't that something of a contradiction in terms?
    No, as Nationalism leads to Nationalism in response almost always
  • You mean that Johnson cleverly imposed a short deadline on himself so that he would be forced to capitulate, like last time?
    No. So that both parties would be forced to compromise, like last time.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    You mean that Johnson cleverly imposed a short deadline on himself so that he would be forced to capitulate, like last time?
    He cannot capitulate. Its political suicide. It will lose the tories power for a generation. For the reasons that have been spelled out on here.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,359

    Its our sovereign natural resource and they want it - and we want control of it. That is what independent nations do, they control their natural resources.

    If there were major gold reserves underground would you expect us to offer access to them without a major quid pro quo in return?
    Och well, once Scotland goes with 2/3 of the UK fishing waters that should simplify things a bit.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Och well, once Scotland goes with 2/3 of the UK fishing waters that should simplify things a bit.
    ''Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish...??''
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,359
    HYUFD said:

    No, as Nationalism leads to Nationalism in response almost always
    That's almost as profound as Brexit means Brexit.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,364

    Its our sovereign natural resource and they want it - and we want control of it. That is what independent nations do, they control their natural resources.

    If there were major gold reserves underground would you expect us to offer access to them without a major quid pro quo in return?
    Lets be real. Australia has a major mining industry - its about 5-6% of GDP, that size of national industry would be really important in a trade deal. UK fishing is about 0.1% of GDP, a win on fishing to lose on much of the other 99.9% is pretty stupid and where we will likely end up.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,849
    Interesting ad from a Republican candidate.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S_Xl2eOeeY
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,634
    @HYUFD would you honestly advocate for a “hard line” to be taken against an Independent Scotland? Really?

    You’d cut off our noses to spite our face to make some sort of point?

    If so, that’s incredibly juvenile. It would be in all our interests to ensure a mutually agreeable and fair outcome. Stability is key for economies remember.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    LOL! Colin Graves says cricket has never attracted women or children.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Interesting ad from a Republican candidate.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S_Xl2eOeeY

    Indeed. Stunning.

    And.....er.....the political message is pretty strong too!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,317

    Interesting ad from a Republican candidate.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S_Xl2eOeeY

    This advert only works if the GOP candidate isn't Trump. It does have an incredible amount of truth in it though.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,165
    tlg86 said:

    LOL! Colin Graves says cricket has never attracted women or children.

    I was more of a cricket fan between the ages of 11 and 17 then I have been since.
  • tlg86 said:

    LOL! Colin Graves says cricket has never attracted women or children.

    He's a tit.

    The Hundred will be a white elephant when he's gone.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,405
    edited August 2020
    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1296741235990892544

    There will be a deal if the UK government moves on State Aid and not if it doesn't. State Aid is the reddest of EU red lines.

    The trick is the UK exercising "sovereign control over its own laws" so that it is functionally identical with the EU rules and ECJ case law.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited August 2020

    @HYUFD would you honestly advocate for a “hard line” to be taken against an Independent Scotland? Really?

    You’d cut off our noses to spite our face to make some sort of point?

    If so, that’s incredibly juvenile. It would be in all our interests to ensure a mutually agreeable and fair outcome. Stability is key for economies remember.

    If Scotland voted for independence it would become a foreign country and we would have to pursue our own interests above all in any independence and trade deal much as Brussels is now doing with us after we voted to Leave the EU.

    In any case if we left the EU with no trade deal and Scotland then voted for independence there would have to be tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa and customs posts along the Scottish borders until any rUK EU FTA was agreed, assuming an Independent Scotland rejoined the EU.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,718

    We can't eat all our fish and they can can't catch all our fish. And it always has to be done sustainably.

    It's basically about jobs and there is the scope for the compromise.
    For sure they will sell Scottish fishing down the river yet again.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,239
    HYUFD said:

    If Scotland voted for independence it would become a foreign country and we would have to pursue our own interests above all in any independence and trade deal much as Brussels is now doing with us after we voted to Leave the EU

    In any case if we left the EU with no trade deal and Scotland then voted for independence there would have to be tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa and customs posts along the Scottish borders until any rUK EU FTA was agreed, assuming an Independent Scotland remained the EU.
    Scotland can`t "remain in the EU". It is not in it now. It would have to join afresh, as a newly formed sovereign nation, and no doubt the EU would lay down conditions, which may or may not be palatable.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,634
    HYUFD said:

    If Scotland voted for independence it would become a foreign country and we would have to pursue our own interests above all in any independence and trade deal much as Brussels is now doing with us after we voted to Leave the EU

    In any case if we left the EU with no trade deal and Scotland then voted for independence there would have to be tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa and customs posts along the Scottish borders until any rUK EU FTA was agreed, assuming an Independent Scotland remained the EU.
    Stability and friendly relations on this island is literally one of our biggest interests. You don’t get that by “screwing” the other party.

    Your suggested approach is indeed childish then. Thanks for confirming.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    He's a tit.

    The Hundred will be a white elephant when he's gone.
    Unfair. Tits are shapely and full of nourishing goodness.

    Graves is an arse.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    malcolmg said:

    For sure they will sell Scottish fishing down the river yet again.
    No, that is the SNP who would give EU boats full access to Scottish waters
  • FF43 said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1296741235990892544

    There will be a deal if the UK government moves on State Aid and not if it doesn't. State Aid is the reddest of EU red lines.

    The trick is the UK exercising "sovereign control over its own laws" so that it is functionally identical with the EU rules and ECJ case law.

    No the trick is the EU recognising the UK as a sovereign country and agreeing mutually respectful State Aid rules that befit a Free Trade Agreement.
  • ydoethur said:

    Unfair. Tits are shapely and full of nourishing goodness.

    Graves is an arse.
    Thought you might appreciate this.

    https://twitter.com/EquusontheBuses/status/1296757683568115712
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited August 2020

    Stability and friendly relations on this island is literally one of our biggest interests. You don’t get that by “screwing” the other party.

    Your suggested approach is indeed childish then. Thanks for confirming.
    Not childish just reality, any nation in a trade deal puts its own interests first.

    Though of course if Scotland voted for independence English and Scottish relations would be at their lowest since Bannockburn and Flodden Field
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,288
    It hasn’t taken diners long to spot the loophole in Rishi’s scheme and ask to be billed for each course as a separate meal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    Thought you might appreciate this.

    https://twitter.com/EquusontheBuses/status/1296757683568115712
    I have got to ask -

    Why is Bastani obsessing about the Sykes-Picot agreement? Seems a bit niche even for him.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    malcolmg said:

    For sure they will sell Scottish fishing down the river yet again.
    Very good.

    You could have gone for ‘their fate is tide to the negotiations’ as well. Just to be shore...
  • ydoethur said:

    I have got to ask -

    Why is Bastani obsessing about the Sykes-Picot agreement? Seems a bit niche even for him.
    Well a Corbynite obsessed about the borders of the Middle East seems unusual. No wait.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,634
    HYUFD said:

    Not childish just reality, any nation in a trade deal puts its own interests first.

    Though of course if Scotland voted for independence English and Scottish relations would be at their lowest since Bannockburn and Flodden Field
    Its not the same. Any idiot can recognize that the hundreds and hundreds of years of shared culture and history between England and Scotland mean that it would never just be a “trade deal”. It would be about a long term relationship between two old friends. We will still share the same monarchy ffs!

    Did the British Empire try and screw Australia, Canada, and New Zealand when they were granted independence?

    Your war fantasies are really getting out of hand.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,941
    Alistair said:
    Maybe Biden can win Texas, after all.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,317
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/21/ao-hires-more-staff-on-back-of-covid-home-shopping-surge

    This is what I meant about displacement activity, UK businesses seem to be much faster at adapting to the new reality than their European counterparts. Our flexible labour market rules definitely help in this regard, it allows businesses to take risks on recruitment.

    Anecdotally, again, I've heard that some of the large retail companies are putting in hiring freezes for all but e-commerce. There will be a period of adjustment, however, there are going to be jobs being created, they just won't be in the same sectors as before which means retraining rather than long term unemployment.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,405

    No the trick is the EU recognising the UK as a sovereign country and agreeing mutually respectful State Aid rules that befit a Free Trade Agreement.
    Then this FTA won't happen. The EU is looking for protection from "buccaneering" and can achieve it by cutting the UK off from its Single Market.

    State Aid is important to the EU because it's one of the few areas where non-agreement can benefit the UK asymmetrically. EU members will need to follow EU State Aid rules whether the UK follows them or not. So the UK gets a free ride on the Level Playing Field.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,634
    FF43 said:

    Then this FTA won't happen. The EU is looking for protection from "buccaneering" and can achieve it by cutting the UK off from its Single Market.

    State Aid is important to the EU because it's one of the few areas where non-agreement can benefit the UK asymmetrically. EU members will need to follow EU State Aid rules whether the UK follows them or not. So the UK gets a free ride on the Level Playing Field.
    Easiest deal in history. 🤓
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    Root’s getting bogged down here again.

    Don’t think he’s finding the pressure of carrying the batting and captaining the side too easy.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,941
    HYUFD said:

    Agreed, if the Tories went for an EEA soft Brexit then lots of Leaver Tories could defect to the Brexit Party again and if the Tories allowed indyref2 and Yes won Farage could also benefit from the English nationalist backlash.

    Hence Boris will go for a hard Brexit while also continuing to ban indyref2 while he remains PM
    Most people who voted Brexit would accept any type of Brexit, very few would defect
  • LOCK HIM UP!

    https://twitter.com/JamieJackson___/status/1296789943830839297

    From the rest of the tweet thread

    Petros Vassilakis, police spokesman: "When the brawl was all sorted out, one of the two groups - with the football players - started verbally abusing officers. There were several policemen there. At some point, one of the three members of the group - they were aged 27, 28..."

    "and 29 - threw a swing at one of the policemen and a fight ensued. All of the three were arrested but during the effort to do so, the other two, including the football player, got violent also. They threw down at least two policemen..."

    "hit them with their fists and kicked them. I can't tell you what they were telling us. All English swear words against the authorities and against the work of the police. All three, including the football player, are being held in custody, locked up in Mykonos cell..."

    "They will appear before a state prosecutor on the island of Syros later today to be charged with aggravated assault."
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,229

    The political decision was taken to use an algorithm so that the results in aggregate would be comparable with the years before and after. It was decided that this was more important than the accuracy of the results for individuals.

    The algorithm did what was asked of it just fine.
    Yes - they've just swapped one problem for several others. But that's the trouble with populists - they want to remain popular. They are already coping with the new problems they've created.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,567
    Its all kicking off in Ireland over #golfgate

    https://twitter.com/paulmurphy_TD/status/1296719095484821504?s=09
  • Hang on, I was told on here that the AG had the final say/authority on arbitrarily extending sentences in this case.

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelena/status/1296763175472422913
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    LOCK HIM UP!

    https://twitter.com/JamieJackson___/status/1296789943830839297

    From the rest of the tweet thread

    Petros Vassilakis, police spokesman: "When the brawl was all sorted out, one of the two groups - with the football players - started verbally abusing officers. There were several policemen there. At some point, one of the three members of the group - they were aged 27, 28..."

    "and 29 - threw a swing at one of the policemen and a fight ensued. All of the three were arrested but during the effort to do so, the other two, including the football player, got violent also. They threw down at least two policemen..."

    "hit them with their fists and kicked them. I can't tell you what they were telling us. All English swear words against the authorities and against the work of the police. All three, including the football player, are being held in custody, locked up in Mykonos cell..."

    "They will appear before a state prosecutor on the island of Syros later today to be charged with aggravated assault."

    He sounds truly charming.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,820

    Its not the same. Any idiot can recognize that the hundreds and hundreds of years of shared culture and history between England and Scotland mean that it would never just be a “trade deal”. It would be about a long term relationship between two old friends. We will still share the same monarchy ffs!

    Did the British Empire try and screw Australia, Canada, and New Zealand when they were granted independence?

    Your war fantasies are really getting out of hand.
    Getting to be the sort of thing that would make useful publicityy when tweeted during indyref 2. Not that I would do it: I don't have a twitter account.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    Its not the same. Any idiot can recognize that the hundreds and hundreds of years of shared culture and history between England and Scotland mean that it would never just be a “trade deal”. It would be about a long term relationship between two old friends. We will still share the same monarchy ffs!

    Did the British Empire try and screw Australia, Canada, and New Zealand when they were granted independence?

    Your war fantasies are really getting out of hand.
    Australia, Canada and New Zealand got dominion status first and only gradually achieved full independence. In any case they are also foreign nations and we will also put our own interests first in any trade deal post Brexit with them, despite the shared Head of State.

    We would also be moving from no FTA to a FTA with them, with Scotland we would be moving from single market and customs union alignment with them to no trade deal at all until a FTA was agreed with them
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,820
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    No, that is the SNP who would give EU boats full access to Scottish waters
    You mean like the Tories did?

    You need to read up on SNP fisheries policy.

    Edit: nopt what you and your Tory chums project in the wayt of your own inner fantasies and fears (especially after what Mrs T did to the fisheries).
  • ydoethur said:

    He sounds truly charming.
    It's tragic, Harry Maguire was a good Sheffield lad, he's been ruined by living in Manchester.
  • ydoethur said:

    He sounds truly charming.
    To be fair, I had to deal with Greek police in Athens in 2007, they are utter arseholes.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    @rpjs Nexus who operate the Tyne and Wear Metro are now state owned. DB pulled out.

    Thank you. I sit corrected, although I will note that Nexus itself has always been a public body: once upon a time it was the Tyne and Wear Passenger Transport Executive. The PTEs were created in the late 60s in an attempt to apply the London Transport model to the other major conurbations. They survived Thatcher’s abolition of the metropolitan counties but were made to privatize their bus operations (most other municipal bus operations were privatized too). They now come under the aegis of their local City Region combined authority. I don’t think any still use the term “PTE” anymore though, e.g. Greater Manchester PTE is now Transport for Greater Manchester.
  • NEW THREAD

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited August 2020

    Most people who voted Brexit would accept any type of Brexit, very few would defect
    43% of Leave voters say a Brexit Deal that involved staying in the single market and customs union would be unacceptable, 42% acceptable.

    73% of Leave voters say No Deal would be acceptable over that

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/08/29/search-median-voter-brexit
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,383

    So my university’s COVID plan is as follows:

    Students will be on site for 3 hours a week, and teaching staff will only be allowed on site when they are teaching.

    Sounds grim.

    Bit unfair on arts and humanities students, having to spend twice as long on campus as normal.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,359

    It's tragic, Harry Maguire was a good Sheffield lad, he's been ruined by living in Manchester.
    Has that happened before?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Spanish brothels are fucking grim even for the battle tested libertine.
    Was the pun deliberate?
This discussion has been closed.