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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Scott_xP said:
    What the feck is "maintaining access to UK fishing waters" if not "Cherry Picking"?
    Fishing, rather than cherry picking.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Scott_xP said:
    What the feck is "maintaining access to UK fishing waters" if not "Cherry Picking"?
    Quite. I really do not understand why any comments from the EU on negotiations is treated as gospel truth or automatically to be taken at face value - I wouldn't trust negotiators playing the media game from either side to tell the unvarnished truth, because they are negotiators. If agreements eventually get signed without all the movement from whichever side said was essential, they don't stand up and say 'Sorry, we were wrong'.

    No - negotiators talk bullcrap whilst negotiations are going on. We should stop listening to the whole lot of them, from both sides.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Man's a fool. He should have said he was testing his eyesight, as apparently that's fine and dandy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate to beat the SNP at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    MaxPB said:

    I have to give credit where it's due on 5he economy. The government has got basically every step correct on the unlocking. They've managed to balance economic need with keeping the virus under control extremely well. I don't know who gets the credit but they've done a very, very good job under tough circumstances. So much that the predictions of mega cuts and tax rises may just end up being predictions and we live with an extra £250bn in debt rather than destroy the economy to pay it off. We may end up in a situation with the 2021 deficit looking very similar to the 2019 deficit with 2020 just a one off hit.

    I hope that's right.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Is the unexpectedly high PMI a driving force behind the strengthening of the pound?

    More that the $ is becoming weaker?
    A bit of both. The UK economic data has been good for a month or so and the data coming from the US is very patchy.
    Its all a USD move. EURGBP has been more or less flat the last couple of months, while EURUSD has strengthened significantly. FX markets haven't suddenly discovered any love for the GBP, which is still beset by the UK's poor response to Covid and continuing Brexit risks.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What the feck is "maintaining access to UK fishing waters" if not "Cherry Picking"?
    Quite. I really do not understand why any comments from the EU on negotiations is treated as gospel truth or automatically to be taken at face value - I wouldn't trust negotiators playing the media game from either side to tell the unvarnished truth, because they are negotiators. If agreements eventually get signed without all the movement from whichever side said was essential, they don't stand up and say 'Sorry, we were wrong'.

    No - negotiators talk bullcrap whilst negotiations are going on. We should stop listening to the whole lot of them, from both sides.
    EU good, UK bad. That's all you need to know.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    ydoethur said:

    Man's a fool. He should have said he was testing his eyesight, as apparently that's fine and dandy.
    Not here it's not. They fined a hotel worker £2000 for stopping off in a shop on his way home to buy a bottle of water.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Scott_xP said:
    He'll get votes from that just for the audacity and speaking his mind.

    Many Americans find it refreshing.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    This is a fairly compelling argument for the existence of institutional sexism in France

    https://twitter.com/mslapointe/status/1296154229695029249?s=19
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Man's a fool. He should have said he was testing his eyesight, as apparently that's fine and dandy.
    Not here it's not. They fined a hotel worker £2000 for stopping off in a shop on his way home to buy a bottle of water.
    My post was not perhaps meant to be taken entirely seriously...

    Edit - even by the standards of mineral water though, that's bloody expensive.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Alistair said:

    This is a fairly compelling argument for the existence of institutional sexism in France

    https://twitter.com/mslapointe/status/1296154229695029249?s=19

    It went from reasonably balanced (with a bit of work to do, perhaps), to massively skewed one way.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate to beat the SNP at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    Yoiu might like to consider the fact that "unionist" has a very loaded double meaning in Scotland. And yet what else would you call your alliance?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionist divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    That's a stroke of luck so early in the day.

    The rest of the post doesn't make any sense, of course, but that's about par for the course.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What the feck is "maintaining access to UK fishing waters" if not "Cherry Picking"?
    Quite. I really do not understand why any comments from the EU on negotiations is treated as gospel truth or automatically to be taken at face value - I wouldn't trust negotiators playing the media game from either side to tell the unvarnished truth, because they are negotiators. If agreements eventually get signed without all the movement from whichever side said was essential, they don't stand up and say 'Sorry, we were wrong'.

    No - negotiators talk bullcrap whilst negotiations are going on. We should stop listening to the whole lot of them, from both sides.
    Negotiators at a big, international negotiation, briefing their points of view to the press.

    There is a film at 11, I believe.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    MaxPB said:

    Another major factor is employment, there's a huge worry that as more people are let go in the coming months it will cause a slowdown. However, I'm not convinced. The job losses are majority in retail and hospitality, in terms of where to lose jobs, neither sector is very high yield. Part of why the 2008 crash was so bad is that it was middle income and high income people that found themselves out of work. People on lower incomes should find it easier to find an equivalent paying job elsewhere, maybe in a new or different sector (warehouse fulfilment rather than shelf stacking etc...) but we'll need to see how it plays out. From anecdotal reports, none of my friends have found themselves on the wrong side of a redundancy package yet so the jobs damage does seem to be limited to retail and hospitality so far.

    Unfortunately it is impacting more than just retail and hospitality. I work in engineering consultancy and we have had a round of redundancies. I would say how many but that sort of information isn't shared. From those departments I am aware of, it seems to be around 10%.

    That comes on top of the temporary pay cuts that have been implemented by many companies in the sector. So saving on commuting hasn't given us extra cash in our pockets.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Have to say that he has been a major improvement in our negotiating team.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What the feck is "maintaining access to UK fishing waters" if not "Cherry Picking"?
    Quite. I really do not understand why any comments from the EU on negotiations is treated as gospel truth or automatically to be taken at face value - I wouldn't trust negotiators playing the media game from either side to tell the unvarnished truth, because they are negotiators. If agreements eventually get signed without all the movement from whichever side said was essential, they don't stand up and say 'Sorry, we were wrong'.

    No - negotiators talk bullcrap whilst negotiations are going on. We should stop listening to the whole lot of them, from both sides.
    Negotiators at a big, international negotiation, briefing their points of view to the press.

    There is a film at 11, I believe.
    Will they be offering a choice of bridges?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    DavidL said:

    Have to say that he has been a major improvement in our negotiating team.
    It occurs to me that there would be a certain irony if Project Fear proved to be right about grounding all our planes. That would mean we were suddenly and abruptly quarantined and put France right in the firing line for Covid transmission by international travellers.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    DavidL said:

    Have to say that he has been a major improvement in our negotiating team.

    Really?

    We have gone from "oven-ready" to "no progress"
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    "the country".

    And "seats form[er]ly held by Labour".

    How far back do you want to go?

    Also - what would you put on the electoral paper? You can't stand under two different names for the same party in the same election.
  • RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What the feck is "maintaining access to UK fishing waters" if not "Cherry Picking"?
    Quite. I really do not understand why any comments from the EU on negotiations is treated as gospel truth or automatically to be taken at face value - I wouldn't trust negotiators playing the media game from either side to tell the unvarnished truth, because they are negotiators. If agreements eventually get signed without all the movement from whichever side said was essential, they don't stand up and say 'Sorry, we were wrong'.

    No - negotiators talk bullcrap whilst negotiations are going on. We should stop listening to the whole lot of them, from both sides.
    EU good, UK bad. That's all you need to know.
    It's never been good/bad, or nice/nasty. It's always been about power (and that's true on both sides; remember "we hold all the cards"?)

    If the EU are of the view that a deal with the UK is a nice thing to have, but not worth contaminating their single market for, they have the sovereign freedom to choose that course. They may be chumps and ninnies for that (though they're probably not) but it's their choice, and ultimately there's a low limit on what the UK can do about that.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    MaxPB said:

    I have to give credit where it's due on 5he economy. The government has got basically every step correct on the unlocking. They've managed to balance economic need with keeping the virus under control extremely well. I don't know who gets the credit but they've done a very, very good job under tough circumstances. So much that the predictions of mega cuts and tax rises may just end up being predictions and we live with an extra £250bn in debt rather than destroy the economy to pay it off. We may end up in a situation with the 2021 deficit looking very similar to the 2019 deficit with 2020 just a one off hit.

    Even with heroically optimistic assumptions that a vaccine is imminent, Brexit transition will end painlessly and we won't suffer from damage to the global economy, I think it's impossible for the deficit in 2021 not to be considerably greater than 2019.

    The reason being that Johnson has always been uncomfortable with any degree of restraint, including spending restraint. He'll have seen this year that he was able to spend with gay abandon with no ill effect. He wants to be popular. There will be a lot of spending in 2021.

    Also, I believe that there are technical reasons why you'd expect the tax take to not recover as quickly as the wider economy - losses carried over, self-assessment paid in arrears, etc. Tax will not keep up with spending.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    "the country".

    And "seats form[er]ly held by Labour".

    How far back do you want to go?

    Also - what would you put on the electoral paper? You can't stand under two different names for the same party in the same election.
    The Alliance for the Union would be a different party set up solely for Holyrood next year registered separately.

    It would be the Unionist equivalent of the SNP on the constituency vote while the different current Unionist parties would all stand separately on the list against each other as different Nationalist parties will also stand separately on the list against the SNP
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited August 2020
    I've never actually said this before about any vote, be it Remain-16, sIndy, Leave-15, Trump-16, Brexit, Corbyn-17, Corbyn-19, Tories-19, Miliband-15, Cameron-15, Clegg-15, Clinton-16 and so on and so forth as there were valid reasons for voting that way with all of them.
    But I won't be able to take anyone who has a vote in the US election and casts a vote for Trump-20 seriously on here ever again.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What the feck is "maintaining access to UK fishing waters" if not "Cherry Picking"?
    Quite. I really do not understand why any comments from the EU on negotiations is treated as gospel truth or automatically to be taken at face value - I wouldn't trust negotiators playing the media game from either side to tell the unvarnished truth, because they are negotiators. If agreements eventually get signed without all the movement from whichever side said was essential, they don't stand up and say 'Sorry, we were wrong'.

    No - negotiators talk bullcrap whilst negotiations are going on. We should stop listening to the whole lot of them, from both sides.
    EU good, UK bad. That's all you need to know.
    It's never been good/bad, or nice/nasty. It's always been about power (and that's true on both sides; remember "we hold all the cards"?)

    If the EU are of the view that a deal with the UK is a nice thing to have, but not worth contaminating their single market for, they have the sovereign freedom to choose that course. They may be chumps and ninnies for that (though they're probably not) but it's their choice, and ultimately there's a low limit on what the UK can do about that.
    The FT the other day was pointing out that the EU's approach to cabotage (which will increase costs for both sides, them more) is prioritising "sovereignty" over "common sense".
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    MaxPB said:

    I have to give credit where it's due on 5he economy. The government has got basically every step correct on the unlocking. They've managed to balance economic need with keeping the virus under control extremely well. I don't know who gets the credit but they've done a very, very good job under tough circumstances. So much that the predictions of mega cuts and tax rises may just end up being predictions and we live with an extra £250bn in debt rather than destroy the economy to pay it off. We may end up in a situation with the 2021 deficit looking very similar to the 2019 deficit with 2020 just a one off hit.

    I hope that's right.
    It's unlikely. But good to see that PB Tories now recognise that austerity is largely self-defeating.
  • MaxPB said:

    Another major factor is employment, there's a huge worry that as more people are let go in the coming months it will cause a slowdown. However, I'm not convinced. The job losses are majority in retail and hospitality, in terms of where to lose jobs, neither sector is very high yield. Part of why the 2008 crash was so bad is that it was middle income and high income people that found themselves out of work. People on lower incomes should find it easier to find an equivalent paying job elsewhere, maybe in a new or different sector (warehouse fulfilment rather than shelf stacking etc...) but we'll need to see how it plays out. From anecdotal reports, none of my friends have found themselves on the wrong side of a redundancy package yet so the jobs damage does seem to be limited to retail and hospitality so far.

    Unfortunately it is impacting more than just retail and hospitality. I work in engineering consultancy and we have had a round of redundancies. I would say how many but that sort of information isn't shared. From those departments I am aware of, it seems to be around 10%.

    That comes on top of the temporary pay cuts that have been implemented by many companies in the sector. So saving on commuting hasn't given us extra cash in our pockets.

    Yep, we are having to lay a large number of people off, too.

  • He should never play for England again.

    The FA should ban him playing for Manchester United for at least two seasons.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1296748761352417280?s=21
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    DavidL said:


    They certainly established that the most fundamental purpose of the NHS is to make doctors rich. Stuff their mouths with gold was the approach in the 1940s and ever since.

    What's wrong with making NHS doctors rich?

    I speak from a position of pure impartiality on this.
    Indeed, I can highly comend it as an objective.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The sad thing for the US is the choice between Trump and Biden

    Where is the inspirational leader the US needs to repair Trump's damage
    We saw this sort of false equivalency in 2016, but there's no way that Clinton would have done as much damage as Trump. So it is with Biden. Simply not making the situation any worse will be a vast improvement.

    Also, that Trump was elected in the first place shows that he is, to some extent, a symptom of damage done by others over many years. The idea that one inspirational leader could undo that is a dangerous illusion. There's so much more to be done.

    Obama was seen as an inspirational leader. While he was certainly more sinned against than sinner, part of a leader's legacy is who they're followed by. Clearly, Obama's inspirational leadership was not enough to prevent the US from turning to Trump. They'll need something more to repair the damage.
    Obama was useless, an empty suit devoid of policies and a nasty piece of work but much slyer than Trump..
    Spot on Malcolm. Does he merit the title of "turnip?"
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    MaxPB said:

    I have to give credit where it's due on 5he economy. The government has got basically every step correct on the unlocking. They've managed to balance economic need with keeping the virus under control extremely well. I don't know who gets the credit but they've done a very, very good job under tough circumstances. So much that the predictions of mega cuts and tax rises may just end up being predictions and we live with an extra £250bn in debt rather than destroy the economy to pay it off. We may end up in a situation with the 2021 deficit looking very similar to the 2019 deficit with 2020 just a one off hit.

    I hope that's right.
    It's unlikely. But good to see that PB Tories now recognise that austerity is largely self-defeating.
    Balancing the books and getting the public finances on a sustainable footing is never a bad idea.

    Right now, however, the economy needs massive support. Later, we will have to deal with the bill.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    certainly shares your extreme right wing views. He would be my first choice for the Maiden.
    Why? What do you have against Ukrainians?
    Gove is Ukranian
    Is he? I never knew Aberdeen was in the Ukraine!

    No, I was referring to this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
    I meant this one
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_(guillotine)
  • tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to give credit where it's due on 5he economy. The government has got basically every step correct on the unlocking. They've managed to balance economic need with keeping the virus under control extremely well. I don't know who gets the credit but they've done a very, very good job under tough circumstances. So much that the predictions of mega cuts and tax rises may just end up being predictions and we live with an extra £250bn in debt rather than destroy the economy to pay it off. We may end up in a situation with the 2021 deficit looking very similar to the 2019 deficit with 2020 just a one off hit.

    Surely we need to wait until next summer to assess the damage? What happens when furlough ends? How will people behave in the autumn and winter?
    are you saying that this debate should be appended with the words, "so far"?
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,264

    He should never play for England again.

    The FA should ban him playing for Manchester United for at least two seasons.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1296748761352417280?s=21

    Maybe wait for legal proceedings to be concluded? But IANAL.
  • DO DO DO
    THE SO FAR SHUFFLE
  • When will David Frost tell the EU that we hold all the cards?

    Is he waiting for German car makers and Prosecco producers to put pressure on the EU first?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to give credit where it's due on 5he economy. The government has got basically every step correct on the unlocking. They've managed to balance economic need with keeping the virus under control extremely well. I don't know who gets the credit but they've done a very, very good job under tough circumstances. So much that the predictions of mega cuts and tax rises may just end up being predictions and we live with an extra £250bn in debt rather than destroy the economy to pay it off. We may end up in a situation with the 2021 deficit looking very similar to the 2019 deficit with 2020 just a one off hit.

    Surely we need to wait until next summer to assess the damage? What happens when furlough ends? How will people behave in the autumn and winter?
    Yes, far too early to be smug I am afraid, lot of water to go under the bridge yet.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What the feck is "maintaining access to UK fishing waters" if not "Cherry Picking"?
    Quite. I really do not understand why any comments from the EU on negotiations is treated as gospel truth or automatically to be taken at face value - I wouldn't trust negotiators playing the media game from either side to tell the unvarnished truth, because they are negotiators. If agreements eventually get signed without all the movement from whichever side said was essential, they don't stand up and say 'Sorry, we were wrong'.

    No - negotiators talk bullcrap whilst negotiations are going on. We should stop listening to the whole lot of them, from both sides.
    Negotiators at a big, international negotiation, briefing their points of view to the press.

    There is a film at 11, I believe.
    Will they be offering a choice of bridges?
    Not sure.

    But I have some nice real estate with river frontage. Viewings at low tide only.
  • He should never play for England again.

    The FA should ban him playing for Manchester United for at least two seasons.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1296748761352417280?s=21

    Maybe wait for legal proceedings to be concluded? But IANAL.
    The FA have in the past stopped players playing for England until after the legal proceedings have concluded.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    "the country".

    And "seats form[er]ly held by Labour".

    How far back do you want to go?

    Also - what would you put on the electoral paper? You can't stand under two different names for the same party in the same election.
    The Alliance for the Union would be a different party set up solely for Holyrood next year registered separately.

    It would be the Unionist equivalent of the SNP on the constituency vote while the different current Unionist parties would all stand separately on the list against each other as different Nationalist parties will also stand separately on the list against the SNP
    Think about the funding and the Electoral Commission.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    But, given the recent history, no sane party leader is going to want to get into bed with the Tories. Shafted the LibDems when they were in Coalition, threw the Democratic Unionists under a bus over Brexit.
    Especially when the party leader has the track record on honesty that the present one does.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    DavidL said:

    Have to say that he has been a major improvement in our negotiating team.
    Only if you actually want a 'No Deal' Brexit.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    When will David Frost tell the EU that we hold all the cards?

    Is he waiting for German car makers and Prosecco producers to put pressure on the EU first?

    They need us more than we need them...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Just got my new black Brexit passport. It’s pretty naff quality compared to my one from 2010.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate to beat the SNP at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You obviously do not understand Scottish politics then. Fancy a bet that Galloway's party get ZERO seats.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    Just got my new black Brexit passport. It’s pretty naff quality compared to my one from 2010.

    What do you expect, its French.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    MrEd said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The sad thing for the US is the choice between Trump and Biden

    Where is the inspirational leader the US needs to repair Trump's damage
    We saw this sort of false equivalency in 2016, but there's no way that Clinton would have done as much damage as Trump. So it is with Biden. Simply not making the situation any worse will be a vast improvement.

    Also, that Trump was elected in the first place shows that he is, to some extent, a symptom of damage done by others over many years. The idea that one inspirational leader could undo that is a dangerous illusion. There's so much more to be done.

    Obama was seen as an inspirational leader. While he was certainly more sinned against than sinner, part of a leader's legacy is who they're followed by. Clearly, Obama's inspirational leadership was not enough to prevent the US from turning to Trump. They'll need something more to repair the damage.
    Obama was useless, an empty suit devoid of policies and a nasty piece of work but much slyer than Trump..
    Spot on Malcolm. Does he merit the title of "turnip?"
    5 Star Turnip I think.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    edited August 2020
    guybrush said:
    No, it doesn’t but getting concerned about such things is these days hand-waved away by our world weary cynics as righteous indignation. This is what the world is and really why make a fuss. Apparently. You’re a fool for expecting better.

    I'm not into daily poll hysteria. but most of the last 7 US polls are a bit lacklustre for Biden:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

    Let's hope the convention and well-received final speeches give a boost.

    I rather fear Trump will win again. I really really hope not but the Democrats seem to be far too complacent.
    DavidL said:

    Have to say that he has been a major improvement in our negotiating team.
    Why do you say that?

    In just over 4 months the transition period ends and no-one has any idea what is to replace it and precious little time to prepare for it - or any last-minute deal, if there is one.

    That does not strike me as an optimal situation to be in, especially since we were repeatedly told about “oven-ready deals” and “getting Brexit done”.

    There will, unless things change, be a leap into the unknown just after the end of furlough (and whatever that brings), let alone whatever other unknown unknowns life will throw at us.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:


    They certainly established that the most fundamental purpose of the NHS is to make doctors rich. Stuff their mouths with gold was the approach in the 1940s and ever since.

    What's wrong with making NHS doctors rich?

    I speak from a position of pure impartiality on this.
    Indeed, I can highly comend it as an objective.
    Has it worked Foxy
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    But, given the recent history, no sane party leader is going to want to get into bed with the Tories. Shafted the LibDems when they were in Coalition, threw the Democratic Unionists under a bus over Brexit.
    Especially when the party leader has the track record on honesty that the present one does.
    And used SLAB as penal battalions in indyref 1, to their lasting damage (and that of the SLDs too).

    One would almost think HYUFD thinks Scotland is a foreign country where politics is utterly different and disconnected from rUK. A very strange philosophy for a professed unionist (whichever of the two Scottish senses or both he means).
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    Scott_xP said:
    He'll get votes from that just for the audacity and speaking his mind.

    Many Americans find it refreshing.
    He won't do anything to stop us from dying with COVID-19, but he'll tell us how he feels about sharks.
    Audaciously refreshing!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What the feck is "maintaining access to UK fishing waters" if not "Cherry Picking"?
    Quite. I really do not understand why any comments from the EU on negotiations is treated as gospel truth or automatically to be taken at face value - I wouldn't trust negotiators playing the media game from either side to tell the unvarnished truth, because they are negotiators. If agreements eventually get signed without all the movement from whichever side said was essential, they don't stand up and say 'Sorry, we were wrong'.

    No - negotiators talk bullcrap whilst negotiations are going on. We should stop listening to the whole lot of them, from both sides.
    EU good, UK bad. That's all you need to know.
    It's never been good/bad, or nice/nasty. It's always been about power (and that's true on both sides; remember "we hold all the cards"?)

    If the EU are of the view that a deal with the UK is a nice thing to have, but not worth contaminating their single market for, they have the sovereign freedom to choose that course. They may be chumps and ninnies for that (though they're probably not) but it's their choice, and ultimately there's a low limit on what the UK can do about that.
    UK cannot imagine that someone may have principles and want to stick to them even if they can make more money being unprincipled venal creeps.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Just seen this in the Guardian.
    "On Friday the central Spanish region of Castilla-La Mancha is expected to go further by shutting a sector that has slipped through the cracks to remain open: strip clubs and brothels.

    The move comes after a brothel in the region reported an outbreak of eight positive cases among its staff, according to the news website ElDiario.es. Amid difficulties in tracking down patrons, government officials are urging them to get tested."

    Just imagine the excuses!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Just got my new black Brexit passport. It’s pretty naff quality compared to my one from 2010.

    Is it "black" - because if so it's like the pre-maroon one, not the "blue" the government were wittering about.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Just got my new black Brexit passport. It’s pretty naff quality compared to my one from 2010.

    Is it "black" - because if so it's like the pre-maroon one, not the "blue" the government were wittering about.
    Yeah black!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020

    Just seen this in the Guardian.
    "On Friday the central Spanish region of Castilla-La Mancha is expected to go further by shutting a sector that has slipped through the cracks to remain open: strip clubs and brothels.

    The move comes after a brothel in the region reported an outbreak of eight positive cases among its staff, according to the news website ElDiario.es. Amid difficulties in tracking down patrons, government officials are urging them to get tested."

    Just imagine the excuses!

    I had a bad cold. I was feeling a little whore's twice that day...
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    Alistair said:

    This is a fairly compelling argument for the existence of institutional sexism in France

    https://twitter.com/mslapointe/status/1296154229695029249?s=19

    So basically the women knew they had to work twice as hard for the exams to overcome the sexist bias at the interview stage.
    On the upside for the fellas, any heterosexual man in the 20% is going to enjoy his time at university. (I chose my college on the basis of its more favourable sex ratio, which certainly worked out for me).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    ydoethur said:

    Just seen this in the Guardian.
    "On Friday the central Spanish region of Castilla-La Mancha is expected to go further by shutting a sector that has slipped through the cracks to remain open: strip clubs and brothels.

    The move comes after a brothel in the region reported an outbreak of eight positive cases among its staff, according to the news website ElDiario.es. Amid difficulties in tracking down patrons, government officials are urging them to get tested."

    Just imagine the excuses!

    I had a bad cold. I was feeling a little whore's twice that day...
    I expect that to get a tart response!
  • malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What the feck is "maintaining access to UK fishing waters" if not "Cherry Picking"?
    Quite. I really do not understand why any comments from the EU on negotiations is treated as gospel truth or automatically to be taken at face value - I wouldn't trust negotiators playing the media game from either side to tell the unvarnished truth, because they are negotiators. If agreements eventually get signed without all the movement from whichever side said was essential, they don't stand up and say 'Sorry, we were wrong'.

    No - negotiators talk bullcrap whilst negotiations are going on. We should stop listening to the whole lot of them, from both sides.
    EU good, UK bad. That's all you need to know.
    It's never been good/bad, or nice/nasty. It's always been about power (and that's true on both sides; remember "we hold all the cards"?)

    If the EU are of the view that a deal with the UK is a nice thing to have, but not worth contaminating their single market for, they have the sovereign freedom to choose that course. They may be chumps and ninnies for that (though they're probably not) but it's their choice, and ultimately there's a low limit on what the UK can do about that.
    UK cannot imagine that someone may have principles and want to stick to them even if they can make more money being unprincipled venal creeps.
    Principles like "absolutely no cherry picking, now about those fish . . ." ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    But, given the recent history, no sane party leader is going to want to get into bed with the Tories. Shafted the LibDems when they were in Coalition, threw the Democratic Unionists under a bus over Brexit.
    Especially when the party leader has the track record on honesty that the present one does.
    It is not getting into bed with the Tories, there will be no Tory government at Holyrood next year almost certainly, it is about an Alliance to save the Union.

    And if Scotland goes it is Armageddon for Labour, as the current polls show without Scottish MPs supporting him Starmer has near zero chance of becoming PM in 2024, the Tories will comfortably win a majority again
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just seen this in the Guardian.
    "On Friday the central Spanish region of Castilla-La Mancha is expected to go further by shutting a sector that has slipped through the cracks to remain open: strip clubs and brothels.

    The move comes after a brothel in the region reported an outbreak of eight positive cases among its staff, according to the news website ElDiario.es. Amid difficulties in tracking down patrons, government officials are urging them to get tested."

    Just imagine the excuses!

    I had a bad cold. I was feeling a little whore's twice that day...
    I expect that to get a tart response!
    Although because I'm jammy I may get away with it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Man's a fool. He should have said he was testing his eyesight, as apparently that's fine and dandy.
    Not here it's not. They fined a hotel worker £2000 for stopping off in a shop on his way home to buy a bottle of water.
    Always nice to hear an emigrants view of the world
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    "the country".

    And "seats form[er]ly held by Labour".

    How far back do you want to go?

    Also - what would you put on the electoral paper? You can't stand under two different names for the same party in the same election.
    The Alliance for the Union would be a different party set up solely for Holyrood next year registered separately.

    It would be the Unionist equivalent of the SNP on the constituency vote while the different current Unionist parties would all stand separately on the list against each other as different Nationalist parties will also stand separately on the list against the SNP
    Think about the funding and the Electoral Commission.
    You are saying the SNP does not receive any of the same donors as the Scottish Greens or the Nationalist parties that will be standing on the list next year? In any case legally provided it is registered as a separate party it is legal
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:


    They certainly established that the most fundamental purpose of the NHS is to make doctors rich. Stuff their mouths with gold was the approach in the 1940s and ever since.

    What's wrong with making NHS doctors rich?

    I speak from a position of pure impartiality on this.
    Indeed, I can highly comend it as an objective.
    Has it worked Foxy
    Yes, I am very well paid to do a job that I really enjoy. It has been a great career, though not planning to retire for another 12 years.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    "the country".

    And "seats form[er]ly held by Labour".

    How far back do you want to go?

    Also - what would you put on the electoral paper? You can't stand under two different names for the same party in the same election.
    The Alliance for the Union would be a different party set up solely for Holyrood next year registered separately.

    It would be the Unionist equivalent of the SNP on the constituency vote while the different current Unionist parties would all stand separately on the list against each other as different Nationalist parties will also stand separately on the list against the SNP
    Think about the funding and the Electoral Commission.
    You are saying the SNP does not receive any of the same donors as the Scottish Greens or the Nationalist parties that will be standing on the list next year? In any case legally provided it is registered as a separate party it is legal
    Not talking about donors but about the fact that it cannot be an alliance of existing parties. Which is what you have been going on about.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Just got my new black Brexit passport. It’s pretty naff quality compared to my one from 2010.

    Is it "black" - because if so it's like the pre-maroon one, not the "blue" the government were wittering about.
    Yeah black!
    Good - sounds like the passport makers got it right, even if the government couldn't.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    I'm not into daily poll hysteria. but most of the last 7 US polls are a bit lacklustre for Biden:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

    Let's hope the convention and well-received final speeches give a boost.

    The only really weak polls for Biden there are Trafalgar and Rasmussen - they're both very heavily pro-GOP pollsters (eg Rasmussen has Trump's approval on 51%, way ahead of everyone else). There was another GOP pollster recently also getting very strong Trump numbers in swing states, and it turned out to be a couple of weeks old, and they'd sat on it until now. So there has to be the suspicion that even if the polls Trafalgar etc released are legit, they sat on any state polls they might have done that didn't help put a damper on Biden's conference.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just seen this in the Guardian.
    "On Friday the central Spanish region of Castilla-La Mancha is expected to go further by shutting a sector that has slipped through the cracks to remain open: strip clubs and brothels.

    The move comes after a brothel in the region reported an outbreak of eight positive cases among its staff, according to the news website ElDiario.es. Amid difficulties in tracking down patrons, government officials are urging them to get tested."

    Just imagine the excuses!

    I had a bad cold. I was feeling a little whore's twice that day...
    I expect that to get a tart response!
    Although because I'm jammy I may get away with it.
    I see you are on the game today.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    538 have a better track record than betfair, so probably value in laying Trump at the moment.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Man's a fool. He should have said he was testing his eyesight, as apparently that's fine and dandy.
    Not here it's not. They fined a hotel worker £2000 for stopping off in a shop on his way home to buy a bottle of water.
    Always nice to here an emigrants view of the world
    What are you wittering on about?

    https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1296740304205340673?s=20
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:


    They certainly established that the most fundamental purpose of the NHS is to make doctors rich. Stuff their mouths with gold was the approach in the 1940s and ever since.

    What's wrong with making NHS doctors rich?

    I speak from a position of pure impartiality on this.
    Indeed, I can highly comend it as an objective.
    Has it worked Foxy
    Yes, I am very well paid to do a job that I really enjoy. It has been a great career, though not planning to retire for another 12 years.
    Good to hear.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    I'm not into daily poll hysteria. but most of the last 7 US polls are a bit lacklustre for Biden:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

    Let's hope the convention and well-received final speeches give a boost.

    The only really weak polls for Biden there are Trafalgar and Rasmussen - they're both very heavily pro-GOP pollsters (eg Rasmussen has Trump's approval on 51%, way ahead of everyone else). There was another GOP pollster recently also getting very strong Trump numbers in swing states, and it turned out to be a couple of weeks old, and they'd sat on it until now. So there has to be the suspicion that even if the polls Trafalgar etc released are legit, they sat on any state polls they might have done that didn't help put a damper on Biden's conference.
    Rasmussen had Hillary's popular vote lead as 2% in 2016 in its final poll, that was the result.

    Trafalgar Group were the only pollster in 2016 who forecast Trump would win Michigan and Pennsylvania
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    But, given the recent history, no sane party leader is going to want to get into bed with the Tories. Shafted the LibDems when they were in Coalition, threw the Democratic Unionists under a bus over Brexit.
    Especially when the party leader has the track record on honesty that the present one does.
    It is not getting into bed with the Tories, there will be no Tory government at Holyrood next year almost certainly, it is about an Alliance to save the Union.

    And if Scotland goes it is Armageddon for Labour, as the current polls show without Scottish MPs supporting him Starmer has near zero chance of becoming PM in 2024, the Tories will comfortably win a majority again
    Not really, the current polls are not a good guide to what will happen in 3-4 years. It's perfectly possible for Labour to win a majority without Scotland, as it did in 1997 and 2001. If Johnson presides over a bad Brexit, fucks up Covid and then loses the Northern colony then I'm not sure the Tories will prosper in 2024.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    ydoethur said:

    Just seen this in the Guardian.
    "On Friday the central Spanish region of Castilla-La Mancha is expected to go further by shutting a sector that has slipped through the cracks to remain open: strip clubs and brothels.

    The move comes after a brothel in the region reported an outbreak of eight positive cases among its staff, according to the news website ElDiario.es. Amid difficulties in tracking down patrons, government officials are urging them to get tested."

    Just imagine the excuses!

    I had a bad cold. I was feeling a little whore's twice that day...
    Twice? Boasting!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Just seen this in the Guardian.
    "On Friday the central Spanish region of Castilla-La Mancha is expected to go further by shutting a sector that has slipped through the cracks to remain open: strip clubs and brothels.

    The move comes after a brothel in the region reported an outbreak of eight positive cases among its staff, according to the news website ElDiario.es. Amid difficulties in tracking down patrons, government officials are urging them to get tested."

    Just imagine the excuses!

    There was something similar in Japan during the state of emergency period; There were clusters around brothels in Tokyo and Osaka, and many of them refused to close. Ultimately the Osaka red light district's "dining association" put out an order that everyone must closed or be expelled from the association. Once that order came down I think they all complied; Even if you're not worried about the health consequences of covid19, you'd worry about the health consequences of disobeying the "dining association".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    "the country".

    And "seats form[er]ly held by Labour".

    How far back do you want to go?

    Also - what would you put on the electoral paper? You can't stand under two different names for the same party in the same election.
    The Alliance for the Union would be a different party set up solely for Holyrood next year registered separately.

    It would be the Unionist equivalent of the SNP on the constituency vote while the different current Unionist parties would all stand separately on the list against each other as different Nationalist parties will also stand separately on the list against the SNP
    Think about the funding and the Electoral Commission.
    You are saying the SNP does not receive any of the same donors as the Scottish Greens or the Nationalist parties that will be standing on the list next year? In any case legally provided it is registered as a separate party it is legal
    Not talking about donors but about the fact that it cannot be an alliance of existing parties. Which is what you have been going on about.
    It would not be an alliance of existing parties but a completely new Unionist party. The existing parties would compete on the top up list.

    I would prefer to beat the SNP democratically at Holyrood next year before having to go down the Madrid in Catalonia route given Boris has ruled out indyref2 as long as he is PM
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Just seen this in the Guardian.
    "On Friday the central Spanish region of Castilla-La Mancha is expected to go further by shutting a sector that has slipped through the cracks to remain open: strip clubs and brothels.

    The move comes after a brothel in the region reported an outbreak of eight positive cases among its staff, according to the news website ElDiario.es. Amid difficulties in tracking down patrons, government officials are urging them to get tested."

    Just imagine the excuses!

    I had a bad cold. I was feeling a little whore's twice that day...
    Twice? Boasting!
    It's a reference to Blackadder II (Potato)

    Percy: I even touched her once.

    Blackadder: Her what?

    Percy: Her once. In the Corridor.

    Blackadder: Never heard it called that before...When we get back, we'll be heroes. She might even let you get her hands on her twice!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    But, given the recent history, no sane party leader is going to want to get into bed with the Tories. Shafted the LibDems when they were in Coalition, threw the Democratic Unionists under a bus over Brexit.
    Especially when the party leader has the track record on honesty that the present one does.
    It is not getting into bed with the Tories, there will be no Tory government at Holyrood next year almost certainly, it is about an Alliance to save the Union.

    And if Scotland goes it is Armageddon for Labour, as the current polls show without Scottish MPs supporting him Starmer has near zero chance of becoming PM in 2024, the Tories will comfortably win a majority again
    Not really, the current polls are not a good guide to what will happen in 3-4 years. It's perfectly possible for Labour to win a majority without Scotland, as it did in 1997 and 2001. If Johnson presides over a bad Brexit, fucks up Covid and then loses the Northern colony then I'm not sure the Tories will prosper in 2024.
    Only with a Blairite leader and Starmer may not be Corbyn but he is no Blairite either.

    If Scotland goes the Tories will be re elected whatever happens against Starmer in 2024
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    "the country".

    And "seats form[er]ly held by Labour".

    How far back do you want to go?

    Also - what would you put on the electoral paper? You can't stand under two different names for the same party in the same election.
    The Alliance for the Union would be a different party set up solely for Holyrood next year registered separately.

    It would be the Unionist equivalent of the SNP on the constituency vote while the different current Unionist parties would all stand separately on the list against each other as different Nationalist parties will also stand separately on the list against the SNP
    Think about the funding and the Electoral Commission.
    You are saying the SNP does not receive any of the same donors as the Scottish Greens or the Nationalist parties that will be standing on the list next year? In any case legally provided it is registered as a separate party it is legal
    Michael Gove’s avengers assemble to stop Scottish independence.
    https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1296744702633480192/photo/1
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    But, given the recent history, no sane party leader is going to want to get into bed with the Tories. Shafted the LibDems when they were in Coalition, threw the Democratic Unionists under a bus over Brexit.
    Especially when the party leader has the track record on honesty that the present one does.
    It is not getting into bed with the Tories, there will be no Tory government at Holyrood next year almost certainly, it is about an Alliance to save the Union.

    And if Scotland goes it is Armageddon for Labour, as the current polls show without Scottish MPs supporting him Starmer has near zero chance of becoming PM in 2024, the Tories will comfortably win a majority again
    Not really, the current polls are not a good guide to what will happen in 3-4 years. It's perfectly possible for Labour to win a majority without Scotland, as it did in 1997 and 2001. If Johnson presides over a bad Brexit, fucks up Covid and then loses the Northern colony then I'm not sure the Tories will prosper in 2024.
    Labour also won a comfortable majority in England in 2005 - 286 to 243. That was despite receiving fewer votes than the Tories.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    HYUFD said:

    I'm not into daily poll hysteria. but most of the last 7 US polls are a bit lacklustre for Biden:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

    Let's hope the convention and well-received final speeches give a boost.

    The only really weak polls for Biden there are Trafalgar and Rasmussen - they're both very heavily pro-GOP pollsters (eg Rasmussen has Trump's approval on 51%, way ahead of everyone else). There was another GOP pollster recently also getting very strong Trump numbers in swing states, and it turned out to be a couple of weeks old, and they'd sat on it until now. So there has to be the suspicion that even if the polls Trafalgar etc released are legit, they sat on any state polls they might have done that didn't help put a damper on Biden's conference.
    Rasmussen had Hillary's popular vote lead as 2% in 2016 in its final poll, that was the result.

    Trafalgar Group were the only pollster in 2016 who forecast Trump would win Michigan and Pennsylvania
    Nick Palmer's thought was that the polls were weakening for Biden. That doesn't seem to be true across Rasmussen - Rasmussen always shows a low Biden lead - and Trafalgar hasn't been polling enough to say.

    That's a separate question from whether the GOP-leaning pollsters are in fact correct.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Man's a fool. He should have said he was testing his eyesight, as apparently that's fine and dandy.
    Not here it's not. They fined a hotel worker £2000 for stopping off in a shop on his way home to buy a bottle of water.
    Always nice to here an emigrants view of the world
    What are you wittering on about?

    https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1296740304205340673?s=20
    Always a sign you are really rattled when you stoop to Agent Pish.
    You denying you are an emigrant from both Scotland and Great Britain
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    But, given the recent history, no sane party leader is going to want to get into bed with the Tories. Shafted the LibDems when they were in Coalition, threw the Democratic Unionists under a bus over Brexit.
    Especially when the party leader has the track record on honesty that the present one does.
    It is not getting into bed with the Tories, there will be no Tory government at Holyrood next year almost certainly, it is about an Alliance to save the Union.

    And if Scotland goes it is Armageddon for Labour, as the current polls show without Scottish MPs supporting him Starmer has near zero chance of becoming PM in 2024, the Tories will comfortably win a majority again
    Not really, the current polls are not a good guide to what will happen in 3-4 years. It's perfectly possible for Labour to win a majority without Scotland, as it did in 1997 and 2001. If Johnson presides over a bad Brexit, fucks up Covid and then loses the Northern colony then I'm not sure the Tories will prosper in 2024.
    Only with a Blairite leader and Starmer may not be Corbyn but he is no Blairite either.

    If Scotland goes the Tories will be re elected whatever happens against Starmer in 2024
    Your over-confidence is gratifying.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    But, given the recent history, no sane party leader is going to want to get into bed with the Tories. Shafted the LibDems when they were in Coalition, threw the Democratic Unionists under a bus over Brexit.
    Especially when the party leader has the track record on honesty that the present one does.
    It is not getting into bed with the Tories, there will be no Tory government at Holyrood next year almost certainly, it is about an Alliance to save the Union.

    And if Scotland goes it is Armageddon for Labour, as the current polls show without Scottish MPs supporting him Starmer has near zero chance of becoming PM in 2024, the Tories will comfortably win a majority again
    Not really, the current polls are not a good guide to what will happen in 3-4 years. It's perfectly possible for Labour to win a majority without Scotland, as it did in 1997 and 2001. If Johnson presides over a bad Brexit, fucks up Covid and then loses the Northern colony then I'm not sure the Tories will prosper in 2024.
    Only with a Blairite leader and Starmer may not be Corbyn but he is no Blairite either.

    If Scotland goes the Tories will be re elected whatever happens against Starmer in 2024
    There’s nothing “definite” about it. Things can change quickly, especially after something so fundamental to the national psyche as “losing half the nation”.

    We just don’t know.
  • Morning, I am back
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    But, given the recent history, no sane party leader is going to want to get into bed with the Tories. Shafted the LibDems when they were in Coalition, threw the Democratic Unionists under a bus over Brexit.
    Especially when the party leader has the track record on honesty that the present one does.
    It is not getting into bed with the Tories, there will be no Tory government at Holyrood next year almost certainly, it is about an Alliance to save the Union.

    And if Scotland goes it is Armageddon for Labour, as the current polls show without Scottish MPs supporting him Starmer has near zero chance of becoming PM in 2024, the Tories will comfortably win a majority again
    Not really, the current polls are not a good guide to what will happen in 3-4 years. It's perfectly possible for Labour to win a majority without Scotland, as it did in 1997 and 2001. If Johnson presides over a bad Brexit, fucks up Covid and then loses the Northern colony then I'm not sure the Tories will prosper in 2024.
    Only with a Blairite leader and Starmer may not be Corbyn but he is no Blairite either.

    If Scotland goes the Tories will be re elected whatever happens against Starmer in 2024
    Your over-confidence is gratifying.
    Not over confidence, fact.

    If Scotland went it would be the final nail in the coffin for non Blairite Labour after the loss of the Red Wall, only twice since WW2 in 1945 and 1966 have Labour won a majority in England without Blair, the Tories would have won in 1964 and February 1974 without Scotland and Cameron in 2010 and May in 2017 would have won Tory majorities without Scottish MPs at Westminster
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    How desperate can these crooks get...............

    Gove enlists old enemies to help save the Union
    Talks held with rivals including George Galloway

    Michael Gove has held private talks with senior figures from across the political spectrum - including George Galloway - in an attempt to find a way to save the Union in the face of rising support for independence.
    Discussions have taken place with a wide range of notable names including Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, the former Scottish Labour first minister, and Danny Alexander, the former Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury. George Galloway, the socialist firebrand who is planning to run for Holyrood, has also been sounded out.

    Obviously Gove reads my PB posts....
    Or possibly, he's just an idiot. 🤔
    No, he knows to beat the SNP divided Unionists fall, united Unionists win, certainly at the Holyrood constituency level
    You are making the assumption that among unionists, voting for a generic unionist candidate is more important than voting on a range of other issues. In fact, that they are the simple opposite of Nationalists who will vote for the SNP regardless.

    I would gently suggest that this is a very bold assumption.
    In the current scenario I would suggest most Unionists would happily vote for 1 sole Unionist Alliance candidate at the Holyrood constituency level and then for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories, the Scottish LDs or Galloway's new party on the Holyrood top up list
    You're welcome to suggest it, but you're wrong. If that was the case, we would see it reflected in the polls.

    A more likely effect of such a scenario is that the remaining chunk of Labour Sindy supporters would peal off to the SNP and magnify their victory.
    Wrong not one poll has had only one Unionist Alliance Party at the constituency level up against the SNP.

    I am sick to death of whinging like yours which plays into Nationalist hands and keeps Unionists divided, this is an election where the country must come first and that means a Unionist Alliance. In seats formally held by Labour the Unionist Alliance candidate would come from Labour and the Tories and LDs would stand down in their favour giving the Unionist Alliance an excellent chance to win a seat the SNP win with under 50% of the vote, even if a few Scottish Labour voters went SNP.

    End of conversation
    But, given the recent history, no sane party leader is going to want to get into bed with the Tories. Shafted the LibDems when they were in Coalition, threw the Democratic Unionists under a bus over Brexit.
    Especially when the party leader has the track record on honesty that the present one does.
    It is not getting into bed with the Tories, there will be no Tory government at Holyrood next year almost certainly, it is about an Alliance to save the Union.

    And if Scotland goes it is Armageddon for Labour, as the current polls show without Scottish MPs supporting him Starmer has near zero chance of becoming PM in 2024, the Tories will comfortably win a majority again
    Not really, the current polls are not a good guide to what will happen in 3-4 years. It's perfectly possible for Labour to win a majority without Scotland, as it did in 1997 and 2001. If Johnson presides over a bad Brexit, fucks up Covid and then loses the Northern colony then I'm not sure the Tories will prosper in 2024.
    Only with a Blairite leader and Starmer may not be Corbyn but he is no Blairite either.

    If Scotland goes the Tories will be re elected whatever happens against Starmer in 2024
    There’s nothing “definite” about it. Things can change quickly, especially after something so fundamental to the national psyche as “losing half the nation”.

    We just don’t know.
    If Scotland went English voters would also have a Nationalist backlash in the Tories favour to ensure England got the best deal possible and no favours to Edinburgh and the SNP in independence talks with Labour squeezed again
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Just seen this in the Guardian.
    "On Friday the central Spanish region of Castilla-La Mancha is expected to go further by shutting a sector that has slipped through the cracks to remain open: strip clubs and brothels.

    The move comes after a brothel in the region reported an outbreak of eight positive cases among its staff, according to the news website ElDiario.es. Amid difficulties in tracking down patrons, government officials are urging them to get tested."

    Just imagine the excuses!

    Spanish brothels are fucking grim even for the battle tested libertine.
This discussion has been closed.