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  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Scott_xP said:
    A "lost generation." What on earth does that mean? All students have got at least what their teachers predicted, how has that created a lost generation?
    They have now...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    The very first words written into the record of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 were that it was specifically a reconvention of that closed in 1707. That was not challenged at the time.

    No they were not. Here’s the official record:

    http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=4160

    Welcome to this, the first meeting of the Scottish Parliament established under the Scotland Act 1998. We are gathered on this day and at this time and place, in accordance with The Scottish Parliament (First Ordinary General Election and First Meeting) Order 1999. As provided by the standing orders, my role is to preside over the proceedings to enable the oldest qualified member to take the oath or make a solemn affirmation.

    Which accepts this was a new Parliament established under a new act.

    I’m getting really quite worried that even sensible Nats are getting more and more divorced from reality, like Cummings or Farage. Business for Scotland and the National are we all know fake news websites that can’t be trusted, but Carnyx is a sensible and intelligent poster.

    Yet even he(?) has swallowed the lies of the Nats’ propagandists whole. No wonder support for independence is increasing if this horseshit is swallowed without question.
    But I was right. They were the first words after the Parliament was reconvened. See page 5 here -

    http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=4160&mode=pdf

    And the National is not a fake news site any more than its sister newspaper the Herald is on the other side. (To b e honest, I want my old Scotsman back from the 20th century - it covered both sides ...).
    What Andrew Neil did to the Scotsman should be the sole reason that his opinion on Scotland should never be listened to (though there are loads of other good reasons).
    Exact5ly what I was thinking, and why I can never forgive him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?
    You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

    In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

    It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

    A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

    So, it won't change any time soon.
    To be fair the government seem to be very keen on awarding this new consultancy with lots of work, they dont even have to do the tender stage:

    http://www.publicfirst.co.uk/our-people.html
    "Rachel Wolf is a Founding Partner at Public First, leading the agency’s policy work. Rachel co-authored the Conservative Party’s Election Manifesto in 2019."
  • DavidL said:

    My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

    With strategic thinking like that he will do fine.
    On a more serious note, there will be quite a few girls (and their parents) who will be most disappointed that their apparently excellent grades are not sufficient for them to enter the 6th form of my son's school. It is generally regarded as the best 6th form in the area, and a fair number of girls usually switch to it from the girls' grammar school.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited August 2020

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?
    You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

    In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

    It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

    A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

    So, it won't change any time soon.
    An excellent explanation of how the outstanding performance of our government since March has been ably assisted by a remarkable value for money external agency.

    Is it possible that a government focused on competence would not need to control the 'vision and narrative' as this would speak for itself?

    This is how it has been run since Blair (and before).

    The Civil Service structure simply doesn't allow for paying a lowly employee more than the "correct" band. And perish the thought that he/she might get paid more than their manager!!!

    Contracting is the way that such constraints have been got round, both in private and public sector - You can't pay a permanent employee more than 45K, but you can pay a consultant 800 a day, for the same job.....
    I’ve been paid more than my manager a few times. Teachers’ pay is mostly down to how long you have been doing it, and I’m old enough to be at the top of the scale. There are additional payments for managerial roles but if you have a fairly new teacher as head of department with much older staff reporting to her then the additional payment can easily be less than the scale difference.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    edited August 2020

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?
    You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

    In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

    It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

    A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

    So, it won't change any time soon.
    While this makes sense for the sorts of projects I understand you work on, I don’t really understand why there is any need in a crisis to get an outside consultant in to craft a “vision and narrative” for an agency. In a crisis this is nowhere near the list of priorities.

    - This is not a crisis task.
    - It is not clear what this even means.
    - No reason not to have this go to tender.
    - The agency - or the two agencies to be merged - already largely exist so there is already a statement of what needs to be done.
    - If it is modelled on the German Institute their “vision” (ridiculous word anyway) can be used.

    It sounds like obfuscatory nonsense and what it obfuscates may be more interesting than the stated objective. Or it is just people calling in consultants because they have no real idea what to do and/or want someone to hide behind and/or blame.

    Re PHE, there should be a clear statement of what failings have been revealed - preferably by some sort of inquiry taking evidence, what steps are needed to remedy these failings, how the proposed changes will remedy those failings, what else it will do and how and an open, transparent process re the hiring of its senior staff and advisors on the basis of published testable criteria, rigorously and independently assessed.

    None of this is happening, just the hiring of some consultants to do a lot of guff about “narratives” in a month and the suspicion, which may or may not be justified, that we are not being told the truth or the whole story about what is really going on.

    And the reaction of most is a world weary complacency. Which is why it keeps on happening.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    These are Y11s we are talking about, so it won’t affect university applications for over a year. I expect even Pearson will have sorted them out by then.

    As to the relative levels, it looks like the delay is to allow for that.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53843148

    This seems to say there are 250k BTEC "A-level" equivalent students who have their original grade but are waiting for their updated result? Am I misunderstanding?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Around 100,00 BTEC students go to university each year, about a quarter of the total number of university entrants.

    And it's not just the year 11 BTECs that are being re-graded, it's also the level 3 (A-level equivalent) year 13 results.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    Scott_xP said:
    A "lost generation." What on earth does that mean? All students have got at least what their teachers predicted, how has that created a lost generation?
    They have now...
    So they were a lost generation for a couple of days, apart from the 60% who got at least their predicted grades ?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited August 2020
    A question is why the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants.
    This has been asked by many people many times, and a number of interesting explanations have come up. A number of academics have come up with the concept of "mimetic isomorphism", wherein the influence of McKinsey's, in particular, has been so great, since the 1980s, that in their planning and organisation many corporate and public entities are actually striving to become like McKinsey's, rather than McKInsey's adapting to each contract ; so naturally the Big 4 will seem the most obvious fit.

    The vast influence of elite management consultancy on the modern world is still largely opaque to most people, partly because it has been so successful at selling the idea of "process, not policy" ; which is a myth.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    algarkirk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Stocky said:

    GCSEs: my daughter has just received her GCSE results. She took nine subjects, eight were exactly what we thought she would have got if she had took the exams, one subject was graded one a grade higher. We are all so relieved, it`s been a nightmare few days.

    Jonathan said:

    Phew! Jonathan Jr received the GCSEs he deserved today. Not at the mercy of some crappy algorithm.

    Pleased for you both.
    But what about next year's Year 11s who will, not unreasonably, object if the exams return them to the sorts of result people got in 2019 rather than matching the results spike in 2020?
    All the teachers I know will tell you, as has been re-iterated on here, that cohorts vary between years, and not always for obvious academic reasons.
  • Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    These are Y11s we are talking about, so it won’t affect university applications for over a year. I expect even Pearson will have sorted them out by then.

    As to the relative levels, it looks like the delay is to allow for that.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53843148

    This seems to say there are 250k BTEC "A-level" equivalent students who have their original grade but are waiting for their updated result? Am I misunderstanding?
    Ah, that’s different. I didn’t realise that was still ongoing.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    These are Y11s we are talking about, so it won’t affect university applications for over a year. I expect even Pearson will have sorted them out by then.

    As to the relative levels, it looks like the delay is to allow for that.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53843148

    This seems to say there are 250k BTEC "A-level" equivalent students who have their original grade but are waiting for their updated result? Am I misunderstanding?
    No, that's right. It's a disgrace. As I've pointed out upthread, around 100,000 of these will be going to university, so they are being left in limbo.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
  • I believe the correct response is something like:

    Damn few, and they’re all dead.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    DavidL said:

    My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

    With strategic thinking like that he will do fine.
    On a more serious note, there will be quite a few girls (and their parents) who will be most disappointed that their apparently excellent grades are not sufficient for them to enter the 6th form of my son's school. It is generally regarded as the best 6th form in the area, and a fair number of girls usually switch to it from the girls' grammar school.
    Yes, as usual the focus is on those who were being marked down without a chance to shine (which was clearly unfair) but the consequences are that others, less obvious, lose out. My concern for my son is that when he completes his advanced highers next year he will be competing with those who got inflated grades this year and then deferred a year because they weren't sure what University in a time of Covid would be like.

    What is always tough just got tougher. There are consequences for both actions and inactions. Will our political classes ever learn this simple lesson?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    So your justification for the Government not sorting out BTEC results in a timely manner is what? That they don’t go to Oxbridge or UCL, and therefore are 2nd class?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    So your justification for the Government not sorting out BTEC results in a timely manner is what? That they don’t go to Oxbridge or UCL, and therefore are 2nd class?
    This might not be the government’s fault: Pearson are in charge of BTECs and it looks like they are the ones who fouled up the ones that should have been out last week (which was before the U-turn).

    I don’t know enough about this to be sure, but my experience of Pearson, who own EdExel, inclines me to think it is them, though it might just as easily be both.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Cyclefree said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?
    You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

    In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

    It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

    A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

    So, it won't change any time soon.
    While this makes sense for the sorts of projects I understand you work on, I don’t really understand why there is any need in a crisis to get an outside consultant in to craft a “vision and narrative” for an agency. In a crisis this is nowhere near the list of priorities.

    - This is not a crisis task.
    - It is not clear what this even means.
    - No reason not to have this go to tender.
    - The agency - or the two agencies to be merged - already largely exist so there is already a statement of what needs to be done.
    - If it is modelled on the German Institute their “vision” (ridiculous word anyway) can be used.

    It sounds like obfuscatory nonsense and what it obfuscates may be more interesting than the stated objective. Or it is just people calling in consultants because they have no real idea what to do and/or want someone to hide behind and/or blame.

    Re PHE, there should be a clear statement of what failings have been revealed - preferably by some sort of inquiry taking evidence, what steps are needed to remedy these failings, how the proposed changes will remedy those failings, what else it will do and how and an open, transparent process re the hiring of its senior staff and advisors on the basis of published testable criteria, rigorously and independently assessed.

    None of this is happening, just the hiring of some consultants to do a lot of guff about “narratives” in a month and the suspicion, which may or may not be justified, that we are not being told the truth or the whole story about what is really going on.

    And the reaction of most is a world weary complacency. Which is why it keeps on happening.

    Oh, I agree. I was commenting on consultancy services provided generally.

    It matters why you procure, for what, who you select, how you manage it and you must hold them accountable to their contract.

    Sometimes (poor) leaders hire consultants to outsource their thinking to them, and just leave them to it.

    That's a really bad way to do it and leads to equally poor results.
  • "A quiet coup" is underway in the UK. Sounds dramatic? Read this and tell me what the author is getting wrong. And all this before judicial review is effectively neutered.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/19/johnson-parliament-cummings-britain-democracy
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    So your justification for the Government not sorting out BTEC results in a timely manner is what? That they don’t go to Oxbridge or UCL, and therefore are 2nd class?
    Most do not go to university full stop and as those who do are unlikely to be going to a Russell Group university they would probably be better off going into an apprenticeship once they get their qualifications and would also avoid student debt
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

    There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    The very first words written into the record of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 were that it was specifically a reconvention of that closed in 1707. That was not challenged at the time.

    No they were not. Here’s the official record:

    http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=4160

    Welcome to this, the first meeting of the Scottish Parliament established under the Scotland Act 1998. We are gathered on this day and at this time and place, in accordance with The Scottish Parliament (First Ordinary General Election and First Meeting) Order 1999. As provided by the standing orders, my role is to preside over the proceedings to enable the oldest qualified member to take the oath or make a solemn affirmation.

    Which accepts this was a new Parliament established under a new act.

    I’m getting really quite worried that even sensible Nats are getting more and more divorced from reality, like Cummings or Farage. Business for Scotland and the National are we all know fake news websites that can’t be trusted, but Carnyx is a sensible and intelligent poster.

    Yet even he(?) has swallowed the lies of the Nats’ propagandists whole. No wonder support for independence is increasing if this horseshit is swallowed without question.
    Ydoethur , you are getting increasingly shrill about independence, is it worrying you that much. Seeing conspiracy everywhere, I am getting concerned about you. Just relax and accept the union is dead , Saor Alba.
    Stop following fake news from deranged xenophobes and the problem vanishes, Malc.

    Whatever the Scots do, I don't want to see a government led by people like Business for Scotland on the northern border of England. They're starting to make me think kindly of Cummings, and I would willingly have sworn that was impossible.
    I only follow one or two individuals and am bright enough to read and understand reality , Business for Scotland are no worse ( and in fact better ) than many shady unionist propaganda units and 77 Brigade , GCHQ etc. You are brainwashed by unionist propaganda and anything in Scotland will be, of no concern to England. I don't see them ( a ONE man band !!!! )crossing under cover of darkness and putting pamphlets up in England.
    Malcolm - I am not brainwashed. I see things as they are. As for your own view - when have you ever posted anything that criticised the nationalist movement (not the SNP, because you criticise them all the time)?

    But I'm not going to allow repeated fake news to be fed to people without challenge.

    In any case, my original post wasn't aimed at you. So I'm not sure why you're getting so worked up about it.
    ydoethur, I like you and was concerned you were getting HYFUD'd
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?
    You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

    In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

    It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

    A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

    So, it won't change any time soon.
    To be fair the government seem to be very keen on awarding this new consultancy with lots of work, they dont even have to do the tender stage:

    http://www.publicfirst.co.uk/our-people.html
    You can bet it is crammed with chums and toffs
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

    There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.
    Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

    The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier
  • Scott_xP said:
    Turnout won’t be great from that age band I expect...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    So your justification for the Government not sorting out BTEC results in a timely manner is what? That they don’t go to Oxbridge or UCL, and therefore are 2nd class?
    Most do not go to university full stop and as those who do are unlikely to be going to a Russell Group university they would probably be better off going into an apprenticeship once they get their qualifications and would also avoid student debt
    So?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    malcolmg said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does anyone know how many PR/comms people the government employ already at our expense to do this stuff, and at what cost?
    You need consultants and outside help in times of crisis. That's because they can be quickly mobilised and you can get all hands to the pump for a short period, and then they can demobilise. You can't do this with just the civil service alone.

    In addition the civil service pay bands and pay caps are now so limiting that anyone who knows about commerce, contracts, big programme management and delivery goes to work for the private sector - the civil service can't compete, can't get the skills, and so is obligated to "buy back" the skills through management consultancy frameworks, which cost even more.

    It's a perverse but obvious consequence of the Government pandering to newspaper headlines with public sector pay ("no-one can be paid more than the Prime Minister") and the knee-capping it gets from civil service trade unions in flexing pay.

    A better question is why it's always the Big4, Bain, McKinsey and Boston that get all the contracts, rather than independent experts and consultants. The answer is that the public procurement process is too bureaucratic and sclerotic to allow them in and gives too many hurdles to jump through (including basic turnover and liability insurance pre-qualification criteria) and all those big firms are networked up to the eyeballs with the decision-makers in the public sector.

    So, it won't change any time soon.
    To be fair the government seem to be very keen on awarding this new consultancy with lots of work, they dont even have to do the tender stage:

    http://www.publicfirst.co.uk/our-people.html
    You can bet it is crammed with chums and toffs
    Mates of Cummings and Govey.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298

    "A quiet coup" is underway in the UK. Sounds dramatic? Read this and tell me what the author is getting wrong. And all this before judicial review is effectively neutered.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/19/johnson-parliament-cummings-britain-democracy

    I'm off on holiday next week camping. Will report if I see Boris.

    Describing what is currently happening as a coup is daft overreach.
    How many u-turns has the government now done on policies?

    Even when not sitting, the opposition and media pressure seems to be able to influence the govt quite effectively.
  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450
    Spanish doctor tells the truth about the 'pandemic' - media types outraged that he is undermining their narrative.

    https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

    There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.
    Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

    The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier
    Wow. Levelling up is sabotaging BTEC students university applications!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    edited August 2020

    "A quiet coup" is underway in the UK. Sounds dramatic? Read this and tell me what the author is getting wrong. And all this before judicial review is effectively neutered.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/19/johnson-parliament-cummings-britain-democracy

    You will get the usual poo-poo’ers on here but I think that there is a fundamental lack of understanding of and contempt for what is necessary for a strong democracy amongst many in our political class.

    See also - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/07/21/cultivating-democracy/
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    The one faint silver lining to all this is that the people in charge are surely completely cooked. It has been publicly demonstrated how utterly arrogant, useless and pathetic they are. If OFQUAL still exists on 31st March next year I will be amazed.

    https://twitter.com/PershoreDan/status/1296349926323101696
    NB. All the governments across the UK
    The not-so-subtle change in those who were clapping their flippers like performing seals when BJ said that Scotland has a particular problem with the resilience of its public services to now bellowing 'Scotland is as shit as the rest of us!' is hilarious.
    :D:D
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    The one faint silver lining to all this is that the people in charge are surely completely cooked. It has been publicly demonstrated how utterly arrogant, useless and pathetic they are. If OFQUAL still exists on 31st March next year I will be amazed.

    https://twitter.com/PershoreDan/status/1296349926323101696
    NB. All the governments across the UK
    Ofqual is UK now , I presume that is as in UK = England sense.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

    There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.
    Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

    The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier
    It also shows the toxicity of the student debt issue, and how George Osborne screwed it up. An actual graduate tax as opposed to the de facto one Osborne imposed would not have the problem that students graduate with a £30,000 debt hanging over them -- and let us take a moment to appreciate the irony that it is those who eventually have it written off are the ones who have the debt, putting them off voting Conservative, for longest.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    So your justification for the Government not sorting out BTEC results in a timely manner is what? That they don’t go to Oxbridge or UCL, and therefore are 2nd class?
    You need to ask if he counts them as lower than a rattlesnakes belly.
  • nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
    Not necessarily. Stopping the young'uns from spreading the virus might also be a consideration.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited August 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    "A quiet coup" is underway in the UK. Sounds dramatic? Read this and tell me what the author is getting wrong. And all this before judicial review is effectively neutered.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/19/johnson-parliament-cummings-britain-democracy

    You will get the usual poo-poo’ers on here but I think that there is a fundamental lack of understanding of and contempt for what is necessary for a strong democracy amongst many in our political class.

    See also - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/07/21/cultivating-democracy/
    Yes. This is partly because of the revanchist character of modern conservative populism, merged with the Thatcherite and Reaganite faith in elite private-sector managerialism. Badmouthing institutional checks and balances in public, while entrusting key tasks to the world of elite management consultancy in private, is one of the only possible consequences of this.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    edited August 2020

    Scott_xP said:
    A "lost generation." What on earth does that mean? All students have got at least what their teachers predicted, how has that created a lost generation?
    Also amazed that an entire generation has been lost. An unusually large cohort!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Screeching u turn news (or more likely it was originally wee diddies mouthing off without authority).

    https://twitter.com/northsoundnews/status/1296134471385845761?s=20

    Presumably the Nats sent the Yestapo in with rubber truncheons.

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
    Listening to people around me, admittedly British immigrants in Spain, mainly over 65 there is a lack of trust in all governments and politicians. I think many will wait and see how the first vaccinations go before leaping in, if you are a regular flu vaccine customer then you are more likely to trust them in general. I’m waiting to see who can’t have it.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
    The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

    There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.
    Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

    The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier
    It also shows the toxicity of the student debt issue, and how George Osborne screwed it up. An actual graduate tax as opposed to the de facto one Osborne imposed would not have the problem that students graduate with a £30,000 debt hanging over them -- and let us take a moment to appreciate the irony that it is those who eventually have it written off are the ones who have the debt, putting them off voting Conservative, for longest.
    The average student debt for a 3 year course is already over £50k. With fewer casual, retail and hospitality part time jobs available I wouldnt be surprised if that hits £60k for this years new entrants.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    houndtang said:

    Spanish doctor tells the truth about the 'pandemic' - media types outraged that he is undermining their narrative.

    https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w

    That's quite funny.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Screeching u turn news (or more likely it was originally wee diddies mouthing off without authority).

    https://twitter.com/northsoundnews/status/1296134471385845761?s=20

    Presumably the Nats sent the Yestapo in with rubber truncheons.

    Another U-turn coming?

    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1296360571940544512?s=20
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited August 2020
    Deleted owing to blockquote mess.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    "A quiet coup" is underway in the UK. Sounds dramatic? Read this and tell me what the author is getting wrong. And all this before judicial review is effectively neutered.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/19/johnson-parliament-cummings-britain-democracy

    I'm not sure that the author is getting anything wrong exactly, but his main bitch seems to be that parliament isn't sitting. Since that is perfectly normal for this time of year, he's over-egging it a bit to conclude anything much at all from that.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

    There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.
    Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

    The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier
    It also shows the toxicity of the student debt issue, and how George Osborne screwed it up. An actual graduate tax as opposed to the de facto one Osborne imposed would not have the problem that students graduate with a £30,000 debt hanging over them -- and let us take a moment to appreciate the irony that it is those who eventually have it written off are the ones who have the debt, putting them off voting Conservative, for longest.
    The problem with a graduate tax is that it provides an incentive to move abroad to work, and avoid the extra tax. Structuring it as debt has the advantage of avoiding that problem (at the expense of others).

    The obvious solution is to say that good universities are a public good that we all benefit from and should all fund through general taxation. If that isn't true, then really the government should have nothing to do with it.

    That this obvious solution can't be taken is because politicians have spent decades telling the voters they can have all the good public services they want without having to pay for them, and the public have been willingly deceived.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Bloody Nats!

    Checks notes.

    Bloody pro-Union, Labour-led administration in Cardiff!

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1296329140761702400?s=20
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    eristdoof said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
    The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.
    If they are in short supply presumably the first criteria should be to require a negative antibodies test? Gets you onto 10-20% before you have given a single vaccine.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited August 2020
    DavidL said:

    houndtang said:

    Spanish doctor tells the truth about the 'pandemic' - media types outraged that he is undermining their narrative.

    https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w

    That's quite funny.
    Madrid figures

    Casos Totales:97.185
    Diagnosticados últimas 24 horas: 1535 Diagnosticados últimos 7 días: 10487 Diagnosticados últimos 14 días: 17873 Incidencia Acumulada (IA): 268,23 Número reproductivo básico (Rt): 1,2
    Fallecidos:8.518
    Fallecidos últimos 7 días: 35
    Recuperados:18-05-202040.736
    Hospitalizados: 43.790 Hospitalizados últimos 7 días: 346 UCI: 3.691 UCI últimos 7 días: 10
    PCR totales: 37.935
    PCR/1000 hab: 25,4 Incremento capacidad PCR última semana: 16%

    The best guide are the 7/14 day cases
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Slightly bizarre Fabians YouGov poll - among Scottish voters, which doesn't break out SNP (or Green) voters - which are evidently are around half the total!

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/1tr3myjqj5/SFResults_200731_Scotland.pdf
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

    After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    edited August 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

    There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.
    Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

    The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier
    It also shows the toxicity of the student debt issue, and how George Osborne screwed it up. An actual graduate tax as opposed to the de facto one Osborne imposed would not have the problem that students graduate with a £30,000 debt hanging over them -- and let us take a moment to appreciate the irony that it is those who eventually have it written off are the ones who have the debt, putting them off voting Conservative, for longest.
    The problem with a graduate tax is that it provides an incentive to move abroad to work, and avoid the extra tax. Structuring it as debt has the advantage of avoiding that problem (at the expense of others).

    The obvious solution is to say that good universities are a public good that we all benefit from and should all fund through general taxation. If that isn't true, then really the government should have nothing to do with it.

    That this obvious solution can't be taken is because politicians have spent decades telling the voters they can have all the good public services they want without having to pay for them, and the public have been willingly deceived.
    Like it or not your solution is hugely regressive though.

    Take two kids at 18 leaving school. The one who already has the higher earning potential after school gets state funded tuition worth many tens of thousands of pounds for free to further widen the earnings gap with the kid who starts work and paying tax at 18, partly to fund the other kid.

    I wouldnt be against your solution if we did something equivalent for the ones starting at work at 18 (possibly no tax or NI until they are 25?).
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    MaxPB said:

    My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

    After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.
    Hopefully you don’t put your own children under such unnecessary pressure?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

    After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.
    Hopefully you don’t put your own children under such unnecessary pressure?
    Why? It's worked well for me and my sister. Both of us have highly successful careers, whatever my parents did was for a very good reason.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    MaxPB said:

    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

    After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.
    Hopefully you don’t put your own children under such unnecessary pressure?
    Why? It's worked well for me and my sister. Both of us have highly successful careers, whatever my parents did was for a very good reason.
    If that’s all there is to life earning money and having more than everybody else.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    houndtang said:

    Spanish doctor tells the truth about the 'pandemic' - media types outraged that he is undermining their narrative.

    https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w

    Extraordinary viewing!!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

    After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.
    Hopefully you don’t put your own children under such unnecessary pressure?
    Why? It's worked well for me and my sister. Both of us have highly successful careers, whatever my parents did was for a very good reason.
    If that’s all there is to life earning money and having more than everybody else.
    What an odd thing to say.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    eristdoof said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
    The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.
    Yes, frontline workers etc.

    Other than that, the government will priorities the elderly, obese and vulnerable – and will have to explain to millions of fearful people that, in fact, they aren't really at much risk.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    eristdoof said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
    The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.
    Yes, frontline workers etc.

    Other than that, the government will priorities the elderly, obese and vulnerable – and will have to explain to millions of fearful people that, in fact, they aren't really at much risk.
    Front line workers, retail workers, the productive middle aged and the productive young. If we waste limited vaccine capacity on old people we will hold back the economy. Honestly it's time to tell the Daily Mail to fuck off.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    DavidL said:

    houndtang said:

    Spanish doctor tells the truth about the 'pandemic' - media types outraged that he is undermining their narrative.

    https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w

    That's quite funny.
    Apart from the fascinating testimony from the doctor, the amateurism of the presenters is a sight to behold.

    The optics of wheeling out the make journalist after he accuses his female colleague of 'losing control' are really quite dire.

    Of course, the bloke goes on to make matters worse.

    Utterly risible.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

    After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.
    Hopefully you don’t put your own children under such unnecessary pressure?
    Why? It's worked well for me and my sister. Both of us have highly successful careers, whatever my parents did was for a very good reason.
    If that’s all there is to life earning money and having more than everybody else.
    Work hard until you are 21. Good A levels, good degree. Then you can get a professional job and coast on a decent salary.

    It is worth the effort up front to get the lifetime benefits.
  • Looking at the new season fixture list Liverpool aren't playing Manchester United until next year. Seems very strange to me, I wonder if that's ever happened before?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    DavidL said:

    houndtang said:

    Spanish doctor tells the truth about the 'pandemic' - media types outraged that he is undermining their narrative.

    https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w

    That's quite funny.
    Its absolutely brilliant. The press are pressing a line which is not true.

    In Western Europe we are in a Casedemic not a Pandemic anymore
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

    After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.
    Hopefully you don’t put your own children under such unnecessary pressure?
    Why? It's worked well for me and my sister. Both of us have highly successful careers, whatever my parents did was for a very good reason.
    If that’s all there is to life earning money and having more than everybody else.
    Work hard until you are 21. Good A levels, good degree. Then you can get a professional job and coast on a decent salary.

    It is worth the effort up front to get the lifetime benefits.
    If that’s what your children want then fair enough, they may not want it or be academic enough to achieve your aspirations for them though and that’s where the pressure comes in.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Slightly bizarre Fabians YouGov poll - among Scottish voters, which doesn't break out SNP (or Green) voters - which are evidently are around half the total!

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/1tr3myjqj5/SFResults_200731_Scotland.pdf

    This is Shit Posting in poll form.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    My lad received an excellent set of GCSE results today, but he's not best pleased. Why? Well, he attends a boys' grammar school which also takes girls in the 6th form. However, grade inflation means that more boys than usual will be able to proceed into the 6th form, which means fewer places remaining for students from other schools and, in particular, the local girls' grammar. So although he is pleased to be entering the 6th form, as expected, he says there will be more of the dopey kids who would otherwise have been chucked out and fewer potential girlfriends!

    After 5 years in an all boys school that's pretty tough, the coeducational sixth form was such a huge change for all of us, it did almost make me completely fuck up my A-Levels though, got a bunch of Bs and Cs at AS level and had to do loads of resits privately to bring my grades up, it definitely cost me a place at Cambridge because my predictions were middling but I got all As in the end after resits and almost being disowned by my parents for daring to get a grade other an an A.
    Hopefully you don’t put your own children under such unnecessary pressure?
    Why? It's worked well for me and my sister. Both of us have highly successful careers, whatever my parents did was for a very good reason.
    If that’s all there is to life earning money and having more than everybody else.
    Work hard until you are 21. Good A levels, good degree. Then you can get a professional job and coast on a decent salary.

    It is worth the effort up front to get the lifetime benefits.
    Exactly, the hard work you do between age 13 and 21 is perhaps the most important period of your life wrt getting a decent career.
  • MaxPB said:

    eristdoof said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
    The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.
    Yes, frontline workers etc.

    Other than that, the government will priorities the elderly, obese and vulnerable – and will have to explain to millions of fearful people that, in fact, they aren't really at much risk.
    Front line workers, retail workers, the productive middle aged and the productive young. If we waste limited vaccine capacity on old people we will hold back the economy. Honestly it's time to tell the Daily Mail to fuck off.
    The productive healthy young if they're not front line don't need the vaccine that much.

    The whole reason we don't want the productive healthy young to get the disease is so they don't pass it on to the old. Once the frontline and the old are vaccinated the young can rather get back to normal even before they are vaccinated.

    My wife is a frontline health worker, working with the vulnerable, I'd expect her to be near the front of the queue for a vaccine. But I have absolutely no desire to get the vaccine myself before my grandparents do.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

    There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.
    Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

    The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier
    It also shows the toxicity of the student debt issue, and how George Osborne screwed it up. An actual graduate tax as opposed to the de facto one Osborne imposed would not have the problem that students graduate with a £30,000 debt hanging over them -- and let us take a moment to appreciate the irony that it is those who eventually have it written off are the ones who have the debt, putting them off voting Conservative, for longest.
    The problem with a graduate tax is that it provides an incentive to move abroad to work, and avoid the extra tax. Structuring it as debt has the advantage of avoiding that problem (at the expense of others).

    The obvious solution is to say that good universities are a public good that we all benefit from and should all fund through general taxation. If that isn't true, then really the government should have nothing to do with it.

    That this obvious solution can't be taken is because politicians have spent decades telling the voters they can have all the good public services they want without having to pay for them, and the public have been willingly deceived.
    Like it or not your solution is hugely regressive though.

    Take two kids at 18 leaving school. The one who already has the higher earning potential after school gets state funded tuition worth many tens of thousands of pounds for free to further widen the earnings gap with the kid who starts work and paying tax at 18, partly to fund the other kid.

    I wouldnt be against your solution if we did something equivalent for the ones starting at work at 18 (possibly no tax or NI until they are 25?).
    If providing a university education is a public good then even those people who don't receive a university education benefit indirectly because the economy is stronger, and we have suitably qualified people to provide public services (where that requires a university education).

    If the benefit of a university education is solely that it improves the employment prospects of graduates then it would be unfair for non-graduates to subsidise that. But in that case it also pretty much ceases to be a matter of public policy, beyond a bit of regulation to protect people from fraudulent sham universities.

    In countries that seem to do a better job with their education system there are more technical options for third-level education that don't suffer from the class bias that afflicts the UK.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    The very first words written into the record of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 were that it was specifically a reconvention of that closed in 1707. That was not challenged at the time.

    No they were not. Here’s the official record:

    http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=4160

    Welcome to this, the first meeting of the Scottish Parliament established under the Scotland Act 1998. We are gathered on this day and at this time and place, in accordance with The Scottish Parliament (First Ordinary General Election and First Meeting) Order 1999. As provided by the standing orders, my role is to preside over the proceedings to enable the oldest qualified member to take the oath or make a solemn affirmation.

    Which accepts this was a new Parliament established under a new act.

    I’m getting really quite worried that even sensible Nats are getting more and more divorced from reality, like Cummings or Farage. Business for Scotland and the National are we all know fake news websites that can’t be trusted, but Carnyx is a sensible and intelligent poster.

    Yet even he(?) has swallowed the lies of the Nats’ propagandists whole. No wonder support for independence is increasing if this horseshit is swallowed without question.
    Ydoethur , you are getting increasingly shrill about independence, is it worrying you that much. Seeing conspiracy everywhere, I am getting concerned about you. Just relax and accept the union is dead , Saor Alba.
    Stop following fake news from deranged xenophobes and the problem vanishes, Malc.

    Whatever the Scots do, I don't want to see a government led by people like Business for Scotland on the northern border of England. They're starting to make me think kindly of Cummings, and I would willingly have sworn that was impossible.
    I only follow one or two individuals and am bright enough to read and understand reality , Business for Scotland are no worse ( and in fact better ) than many shady unionist propaganda units and 77 Brigade , GCHQ etc. You are brainwashed by unionist propaganda and anything in Scotland will be, of no concern to England. I don't see them ( a ONE man band !!!! )crossing under cover of darkness and putting pamphlets up in England.
    I am not brainwashed. I see things as they are.
    One of the most persuasive and winningest arguments evah to be heard on PB.
    I am delighted my sheer brilliance overawes you. I know that we Welsh are naturally awesome but don't worry, we have a deep affection for the Scottish people as well.

    But in this case, as I had refuted a claim by linking to the actual record - as I did before - I'm quite happy that my statement is supported by ample evidence.
    See my comment a moment ago.
    Yes, and you're still wrong. The first words were a notice that it was established under the Scotland Act 1998. Winnie Ewing disagreed and implicitly claimed that the new Parliament was a reconvening of the old Estates. Not correct, not the first words, and not relevant.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    DavidL said:

    houndtang said:

    Spanish doctor tells the truth about the 'pandemic' - media types outraged that he is undermining their narrative.

    https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w

    That's quite funny.
    Its absolutely brilliant. The press are pressing a line which is not true.

    In Western Europe we are in a Casedemic not a Pandemic anymore
    Did you see this from earlier?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/1296080742607355904

    Deaths lag cases in the elderly which will follow from cases in the young. We've seen this happen in Florida, we're at an earlier stage in Western Europe. This is just like with Italy, where we had advance warning and did nothing to avoid it. Let's not repeat that mistake.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    DavidL said:
    Partly - but also the non-algorithm results were skewed because very small class sizes were given the school grades unmoderated.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Does Boris have a really outsized head? Or is the new Scottish leader a pinhead? Or is Boris leaning into the camera to give an exaggerated effect? Or is it a photoshop on different scales? I can't tell....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    The one faint silver lining to all this is that the people in charge are surely completely cooked. It has been publicly demonstrated how utterly arrogant, useless and pathetic they are. If OFQUAL still exists on 31st March next year I will be amazed.

    https://twitter.com/PershoreDan/status/1296349926323101696
    NB. All the governments across the UK
    Ofqual is UK now , I presume that is as in UK = England sense.
    The truth is that all the education departments and quangoes across the UK have had an absolute car crash on this, and all for the same reason - none of them have a clue what they're doing.

    They need to be eliminated* and replaced by people who actually have two brain cells to rub together and a dim knowledge of the subject

    *Not in that sense, obviously.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It is clear what the government’s overriding priority is - to make its mates richer by throwing public money at them. Blessed are those who are friends of Johnson, Gove and Cummings, for they will be levelled up as all around are scorned.

    How does BTEC students still not getting their grades sit with levelling up. How on earth are they going to get a fair shot at university applications?
    Most BTEC students go into employment or onto an apprenticeship after, only a minority go to university
    Well thats all right, lets look after the A level ones and ignore BTec students as we have done for my whole life. Not really levelling up though is it?
    If they go on and do an apprenticeship they may end up earning more than their A Level colleagues who go to university with no student debt.

    Top universities like Oxbridge and UCL do not accept BTECs alone anyway, you have to do A levels or IB for example as well to be admitted

    If levelling up is about two handfuls of poorer students going to Oxbridge instead of one handful, you are going to have millions of disgruntled voters in 2024.

    There are 250k Btec students waiting for their results, about 100k of who are wanting to get into universities. The universities are struggling to get all the students who qualify onto their courses. Inevitably those who suffer will be the BTEC students who wont get their final grades until a week before university terms start. It is a shocking disgrace, just as bad as the A-level fiasco, maybe even worse, but wont get the same national attention because no one really believes in levelling up outside of election campaigns.
    Most graduates now vote Labour, especially those who do not go on to the Russell Group and a high earning professional career and yet still have lots of student debt.

    The skilled working class though is increasingly voting Tory as are those who own their own home or have got on the property ladder with a mortgage, it therefore makes sense for this Tory government to encourage BTEC students to get an apprenticeship and avoid going to university with student debt and increase their chances of getting on the property ladder earlier
    It also shows the toxicity of the student debt issue, and how George Osborne screwed it up. An actual graduate tax as opposed to the de facto one Osborne imposed would not have the problem that students graduate with a £30,000 debt hanging over them -- and let us take a moment to appreciate the irony that it is those who eventually have it written off are the ones who have the debt, putting them off voting Conservative, for longest.
    The problem with a graduate tax is that it provides an incentive to move abroad to work, and avoid the extra tax. Structuring it as debt has the advantage of avoiding that problem (at the expense of others).

    The obvious solution is to say that good universities are a public good that we all benefit from and should all fund through general taxation. If that isn't true, then really the government should have nothing to do with it.

    That this obvious solution can't be taken is because politicians have spent decades telling the voters they can have all the good public services they want without having to pay for them, and the public have been willingly deceived.
    Like it or not your solution is hugely regressive though.

    Take two kids at 18 leaving school. The one who already has the higher earning potential after school gets state funded tuition worth many tens of thousands of pounds for free to further widen the earnings gap with the kid who starts work and paying tax at 18, partly to fund the other kid.

    I wouldnt be against your solution if we did something equivalent for the ones starting at work at 18 (possibly no tax or NI until they are 25?).
    If providing a university education is a public good then even those people who don't receive a university education benefit indirectly because the economy is stronger, and we have suitably qualified people to provide public services (where that requires a university education).

    If the benefit of a university education is solely that it improves the employment prospects of graduates then it would be unfair for non-graduates to subsidise that. But in that case it also pretty much ceases to be a matter of public policy, beyond a bit of regulation to protect people from fraudulent sham universities.

    In countries that seem to do a better job with their education system there are more technical options for third-level education that don't suffer from the class bias that afflicts the UK.
    Yes everyone receives some benefit from university education from increased national productivity.

    But those who dont go also have extra costs that imo outweigh the benefits including paying taxes for something they dont get, and competing for the same properties, status and resources as graduates.

    Just because everyone receives some benefit from it, doesnt mean everyone is better off from it at all.

    Creating better opportunities and incentives for those young people who dont go, would certainly make it easier to justify fully state funded university education for those who do go.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Does Boris have a really outsized head? Or is the new Scottish leader a pinhead? Or is Boris leaning into the camera to give an exaggerated effect? Or is it a photoshop on different scales? I can't tell....
    We all know he's got a big head...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    eristdoof said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
    The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.
    Yes, frontline workers etc.

    Other than that, the government will priorities the elderly, obese and vulnerable – and will have to explain to millions of fearful people that, in fact, they aren't really at much risk.
    Front line workers, retail workers, the productive middle aged and the productive young. If we waste limited vaccine capacity on old people we will hold back the economy. Honestly it's time to tell the Daily Mail to fuck off.
    The productive healthy young if they're not front line don't need the vaccine that much.

    The whole reason we don't want the productive healthy young to get the disease is so they don't pass it on to the old. Once the frontline and the old are vaccinated the young can rather get back to normal even before they are vaccinated.

    My wife is a frontline health worker, working with the vulnerable, I'd expect her to be near the front of the queue for a vaccine. But I have absolutely no desire to get the vaccine myself before my grandparents do.
    With a relatively new vaccine you'd want older people to benefit from not coming into contact with people who can spread it which means vaccinate everyone else first. Additionally, getting the economy back up to full speed is and should always be priority one which means getting young people back into offices is up there somewhere. Whatever outrage the Daily Mail come up with should just be ignored there's no economic or scientific case to prioritise older people over the economically productive.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Does Boris have a really outsized head? Or is the new Scottish leader a pinhead? Or is Boris leaning into the camera to give an exaggerated effect? Or is it a photoshop on different scales? I can't tell....
    Fathead and peaheid can both be true.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Does Boris have a really outsized head? Or is the new Scottish leader a pinhead? Or is Boris leaning into the camera to give an exaggerated effect? Or is it a photoshop on different scales? I can't tell....
    Both are airheads, Boris is a balloon.
  • Does Boris have a really outsized head? Or is the new Scottish leader a pinhead? Or is Boris leaning into the camera to give an exaggerated effect? Or is it a photoshop on different scales? I can't tell....
    This is the sort of analysis we all look for in our favourite political betting based website.

    CHRIST.
    ALIVE.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    The one faint silver lining to all this is that the people in charge are surely completely cooked. It has been publicly demonstrated how utterly arrogant, useless and pathetic they are. If OFQUAL still exists on 31st March next year I will be amazed.

    https://twitter.com/PershoreDan/status/1296349926323101696
    NB. All the governments across the UK
    Ofqual is UK now , I presume that is as in UK = England sense.
    The truth is that all the education departments and quangoes across the UK have had an absolute car crash on this, and all for the same reason - none of them have a clue what they're doing.

    They need to be eliminated* and replaced by people who actually have two brain cells to rub together and a dim knowledge of the subject

    *Not in that sense, obviously.
    Air Marshall Harris was given to writing that he could improve the survival rate for his bomber crews, if he could have a free hand shooting senior managers of the aircraft industry and the Air Ministry
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    edited August 2020

    Screeching u turn news (or more likely it was originally wee diddies mouthing off without authority).

    https://twitter.com/northsoundnews/status/1296134471385845761?s=20

    Presumably the Nats sent the Yestapo in with rubber truncheons.

    The diddies had their horoscopes read.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    edited August 2020

    Screeching u turn news (or more likely it was originally wee diddies mouthing off without authority).

    https://twitter.com/northsoundnews/status/1296134471385845761?s=20

    Presumably the Nats sent the Yestapo in with rubber truncheons.

    Another U-turn coming?

    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1296360571940544512?s=20
    Should have been ruled invalid long ago. Good to see you are still sooking lemons at SNP being ever more popular.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    eristdoof said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
    The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.
    Yes, frontline workers etc.

    Other than that, the government will priorities the elderly, obese and vulnerable – and will have to explain to millions of fearful people that, in fact, they aren't really at much risk.
    Front line workers, retail workers, the productive middle aged and the productive young. If we waste limited vaccine capacity on old people we will hold back the economy. Honestly it's time to tell the Daily Mail to fuck off.
    The productive healthy young if they're not front line don't need the vaccine that much.

    The whole reason we don't want the productive healthy young to get the disease is so they don't pass it on to the old. Once the frontline and the old are vaccinated the young can rather get back to normal even before they are vaccinated.

    My wife is a frontline health worker, working with the vulnerable, I'd expect her to be near the front of the queue for a vaccine. But I have absolutely no desire to get the vaccine myself before my grandparents do.
    With a relatively new vaccine you'd want older people to benefit from not coming into contact with people who can spread it which means vaccinate everyone else first. Additionally, getting the economy back up to full speed is and should always be priority one which means getting young people back into offices is up there somewhere. Whatever outrage the Daily Mail come up with should just be ignored there's no economic or scientific case to prioritise older people over the economically productive.
    Medical treatment should be given on the basis of medical need.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    The one faint silver lining to all this is that the people in charge are surely completely cooked. It has been publicly demonstrated how utterly arrogant, useless and pathetic they are. If OFQUAL still exists on 31st March next year I will be amazed.

    https://twitter.com/PershoreDan/status/1296349926323101696
    NB. All the governments across the UK
    Ofqual is UK now , I presume that is as in UK = England sense.
    The truth is that all the education departments and quangoes across the UK have had an absolute car crash on this, and all for the same reason - none of them have a clue what they're doing.

    They need to be eliminated* and replaced by people who actually have two brain cells to rub together and a dim knowledge of the subject

    *Not in that sense, obviously.
    Air Marshall Harris was given to writing that he could improve the survival rate for his bomber crews, if he could have a free hand shooting senior managers of the aircraft industry and the Air Ministry
    Wasn’t that more or less the approach Stalin adopted?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    eristdoof said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:
    Pretty depressing!

    I do wonder about the US comparisons though. Over there 50%+ of older people are Republicans. They (on average) don't think the virus is such a big deal.

    Here in the UK at least, older people seem pretty scared, so perhaps they will continue to see people less and so protect themselves.
    I’d add that thus far our infection rates have remained much lower than in the US. With sensible measures, they should stay so.
    Until there’s a vaccine, we’re not returning to normal, but if we’re sensible, life should be liveable.
    According to the most recent open source information I can find (here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/oxford-vaccine-enters-final-phase-of-covid-19-trials-in-brazil-cvd/ ), despite the delays caused by not having enough infections in those being tested (which is in all other respects wonderful news), the rollout to Brazil now implies that they'll have enough data on the OxChAd1 vaccine "by November." With, if positive, regulatory approval coming rapidly afterwards and rollout of mass vaccination (thanks to them beginning mass production nearly two months ago on the assumption of success) shortly after that.

    IF successful. Still a big assumption, even if all signs have been pretty positive so far - but if this timeline is followed, and the trials are successful, we should have the data in 11-15 weeks from now, with the rest coming within weeks after that.

    Of course, production and administration of enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in the UK will take significant time, but simply knowing that it's there, it's coming, and there's a fixed timetable for things to get resolved would be marvellous for a lot of people.
    Who is going to be willingly first in the queue? There are a lot of people who feel it’s been rushed or they are going to be injected with a microchip. It’s going to take some selling
    The elderly and vulnerable.

    As the risks from Covid are minuscule for fit and healthy under 50s with no comorbidities, these groups will be at the back the queue whether they like it or not.

    For that reason, I think the policy risk is quite the other way: prepare for thousands of people who have been drummed into irrational fear of the virus now baffled why, suddenly, the government doesn't think them much of a risk at all...
    The most effective use of the vaccine will be to innoculate those who come in to contact with the most people, regardless of their risk status.
    If they are in short supply presumably the first criteria should be to require a negative antibodies test? Gets you onto 10-20% before you have given a single vaccine.
    Yes that makes sense, as long as the follow-up is done to know how safe those with antibodies turn out to be. As I understand it tere is still a lot of uncertainty in this area.
This discussion has been closed.