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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Wedged: the looming problem for Boris Johnson

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited August 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Wedged: the looming problem for Boris Johnson

This is going to be a fantastic year for Britain. pic.twitter.com/dLQUVauCKg

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    First?
  • I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Hello again Alistair. Thanks for the article, but it's a bit disappointing that there are no sneaky fuckers or reluctant Turkish conscripts.

    On the main point, I think again we are risking mistaking lethargy for strategy. Isn't it possible Johnson is just making shit up as he goes along?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    No danger of that. As far as Scotland is concerned, he's all South.
  • Ah yes the 10/1 and the 8/1 you could get on election day 2016 that the SNP wouldn't achieve a majority.

    Those tips are remembered fondly here, as especially as they were pooh poohed by some Nats on here and elsewhere.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Not so sure about the "slow" bit there with Cummings driving the government.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    I should add: great thread header. Hard to disagree with any of it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Who has said there is a split between this shower and corporations? Most of them can't wait to be on the non-executive boards of corporates and hedge funds.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    So which way is Putin going to jump? Because if we're honest, that's what's going to be decisive now. Lukashenko can't survive without help, but he won't be dislodged peacefully.

    Does Putin try to shore up a leader who makes Nicholas Maduro look popular and legitimate, or tell him to do one and gain kudos by facilitating a power transfer to the opposition?

    Any pointers yet?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited August 2020

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    Inter alia, slavery, a civil war, Jim Crow, the current Jim Crow, and the pièce de résistance, the current orangutan in the Oval Office, you have a strange definition of doing alright.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    How would denying Scotland a referendum see them removed from power?

    Yes, I can see that the nutters like Cherry would froth and scream and stamp their feet. But ultimately there's nothing they can do unless they come over all Hyufd and try violence.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
  • Not unique to the Left. Look at fans of the government getting excited because they're still ahead in the polls.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    Inter alia, slavery, a civil war, Jim Crow, the current Jim Crow, and the pièce de résistance, the current orangutan in the Oval Office, you have a strange definition of doing alright.
    Well they are the richest and most powerful country in the world so yeah I think they did ok after ditching us.
    Also, the slavery was our idea, and our leader is also a moron, or perhaps you hadn't noticed.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    The United States has not done that well, really. When it was a colony it had the longest life expectancy in the world, and the highest incomes. On a relative basis, it's done nothing but decline since independence.
  • LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    Well he's factually right, and what a snowflake you are, getting triggered like that.

    Toby Young's Free Speech Union would have you out on your ear.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Legality of Scotsref2 is important via a vis Madrid and EU membership. But Scotland is in an act of union with England, not part of' the Kingdom of England' as Wales was folded up into - so I think there's enough law on the Mats side to force it regardless of Johnson's wishes if push comes to shove
  • Isn't the above what Jon Curtice also found
  • rcs1000 said:

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    The United States has not done that well, really. When it was a colony it had the longest life expectancy in the world, and the highest incomes. On a relative basis, it's done nothing but decline since independence.
    On the other hand, it sent a man to the moon and has been the global economic, cultural and military hegemon for 70 years, in a way unmatched by any previous force, nation or empire.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Pulpstar said:

    Legality of Scotsref2 is important via a vis Madrid and EU membership. But Scotland is in an act of union with England, not part of' the Kingdom of England' as Wales was folded up into - so I think there's enough law on the Mats side to force it regardless of Johnson's wishes if push comes to shove

    Scotland is not in a union with England. Scotland and England were both abolished and formed a new country called Great Britain. In practice, of course, this meant England took over Scotland and dominated the new kingdom, because of its size and wealth, but that's a different problem. As I also noted on the last thread, constitutional law is not 'Scots Law' and it is under the ultimate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,594
    Twitter suspending the satirist Titania McGrath is a big mistake IMO.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    rcs1000 said:

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    The United States has not done that well, really. When it was a colony it had the longest life expectancy in the world, and the highest incomes. On a relative basis, it's done nothing but decline since independence.
    On the other hand, it sent a man to the moon and has been the global economic, cultural and military hegemon for 70 years, in a way unmatched by any previous force, nation or empire.
    It hasn't sent anyone to the moon recently.

    Maybe they're scared the cosmonauts won't want to come back?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    Mr Meeks is, of course, correct that the absolute number is migrants crossing the channel is likely to be very small. This is peak sailing season, and few will risk making the crossing in the windier months. At most, perhaps 5,000 will come by boats this year.

    So, as far as genuine existential threats to the UK, the boats ain't it.

    But why the comparison with the number of Covid dead? The implication is that we should be looking to swap those who die for asylum seekers, which is just bizarre.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited August 2020
    Starmer will be happy about that, but also extremely careful to retain middle-class liberal support in the towns at the same time, unlike Blair. His neo-Wilsonian project is well underway.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    Mr Meeks is, of course, correct that the absolute number is migrants crossing the channel is likely to be very small. This is peak sailing season, and few will risk making the crossing in the windier months. At most, perhaps 5,000 will come by boats this year.

    So, as far as genuine existential threats to the UK, the boats ain't it.

    But why the comparison with the number of Covid dead? The implication is that we should be looking to swap those who die for asylum seekers, which is just bizarre.
    Well, we are quite short of care home workers. Perhaps it's a new recruitment strategy?

    I did find it amusing though that a nation that lionises the disaster that was Dunkirk gets so worked up about a few people crossing in pedaloes. Surely we should be pleased to see the old ways kept up?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    Well he's factually right, and what a snowflake you are, getting triggered like that.

    Toby Young's Free Speech Union would have you out on your ear.
    Was Tony Blair responsible for the 48,000 excess deaths in the Winter of 99/2000?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Legality of Scotsref2 is important via a vis Madrid and EU membership. But Scotland is in an act of union with England, not part of' the Kingdom of England' as Wales was folded up into - so I think there's enough law on the Mats side to force it regardless of Johnson's wishes if push comes to shove

    Scotland is not in a union with England. Scotland and England were both abolished and formed a new country called Great Britain. In practice, of course, this meant England took over Scotland and dominated the new kingdom, because of its size and wealth, but that's a different problem. As I also noted on the last thread, constitutional law is not 'Scots Law' and it is under the ultimate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court.
    I think you're getting Scotland mixed up with Wales, we shall see what happens when the SNP wins a Holyrood majority and forces the issue to the courts (In absence of section 30) anyway
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited August 2020
    Back with a bang AM.
    Willkommen zurück!
    (I'm learning German on Duolingo in preparation for our bright new future)
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
  • a tweet that has not aged well....
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    Yup the USA is currently a great success.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    The United States has not done that well, really. When it was a colony it had the longest life expectancy in the world, and the highest incomes. On a relative basis, it's done nothing but decline since independence.
    On the other hand, it sent a man to the moon and has been the global economic, cultural and military hegemon for 70 years, in a way unmatched by any previous force, nation or empire.
    It hasn't sent anyone to the moon recently.

    Maybe they're scared the cosmonauts won't want to come back?
    China has designs on the moon, but the US is still looking to Mars, which poses much bigger problems than the moon for the body's survival over such a long period in space. Even despite this, Trump has set a Mars deadline, and the new cold war with China may give the Mars race a 60's-style impetus ; the combined technological and spiritual/pioneering aspects are near the core of America's self-image, especially when challenged, or needing to prove a point.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Legality of Scotsref2 is important via a vis Madrid and EU membership. But Scotland is in an act of union with England, not part of' the Kingdom of England' as Wales was folded up into - so I think there's enough law on the Mats side to force it regardless of Johnson's wishes if push comes to shove

    Scotland is not in a union with England. Scotland and England were both abolished and formed a new country called Great Britain. In practice, of course, this meant England took over Scotland and dominated the new kingdom, because of its size and wealth, but that's a different problem. As I also noted on the last thread, constitutional law is not 'Scots Law' and it is under the ultimate jurisdiction of the Supreme Court.
    I think you're getting Scotland mixed up with Wales, we shall see what happens when the SNP wins a Holyrood majority and forces the issue to the courts (In absence of section 30) anyway
    No, I am not. The facts are as I have stated them. Sorry if you do not like them, as that propagandist, liar and failed businessman you linked to clearly does not given his lurid fantasies about international courts, but facts they remain.

    For the record, in case you had forgotten or not noticed, I have always said that if the SNP get a majority at Holyrood, they should have a further referendum.

    But that doesn't alter the law, which is so clear I would have thought even someone as dense as Joanna Cherry would understand it, which is that it is the UK government's decision.
  • I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    Yes, but it didn’t go so well for the original inhabitants.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,411

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    So, in this way, as many others, completely deluded?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    rcs1000 said:

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    The United States has not done that well, really. When it was a colony it had the longest life expectancy in the world, and the highest incomes. On a relative basis, it's done nothing but decline since independence.
    I'd be surprised if a country with such a huge enslaved population had the longest life expectancy in the world, or indeed the highest per capita incomes, but I certainly don't have any numbers with which to refute your assertion. I don't think there is a great desire in the US to restore their colonial status, let's put it that way.
  • a tweet that has not aged well....

    As for bad predictions it’s up there with this piece which I don’t think has ever been shared on PB...

    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
  • LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    Well he's factually right, and what a snowflake you are, getting triggered like that.

    Toby Young's Free Speech Union would have you out on your ear.
    Was Tony Blair responsible for the 48,000 excess deaths in the Winter of 99/2000?
    Alastair has not put a number on "all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence" and I didn't read it as suggesting every excess death this year was the responsibility of the Government.

    But it is reasonably uncontroversial that aspects of the Government's response (particularly very late lockdown and PPE shortages) contributed significantly to the UK death reate being very much on the high side internationally.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    a tweet that has not aged well....

    It's aged so badly I can't see it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020

    a tweet that has not aged well....

    As for bad predictions it’s up there with this piece which I don’t think has ever been shared on PB...

    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
    Do you want pineapple with your pizza, Mr Pinocchio?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    Mr Meeks is, of course, correct that the absolute number is migrants crossing the channel is likely to be very small. This is peak sailing season, and few will risk making the crossing in the windier months. At most, perhaps 5,000 will come by boats this year.

    So, as far as genuine existential threats to the UK, the boats ain't it.

    But why the comparison with the number of Covid dead? The implication is that we should be looking to swap those who die for asylum seekers, which is just bizarre.
    Well, we are quite short of care home workers. Perhaps it's a new recruitment strategy?

    I did find it amusing though that a nation that lionises the disaster that was Dunkirk gets so worked up about a few people crossing in pedaloes. Surely we should be pleased to see the old ways kept up?
    A great enthusiasm for British traditions, they even get to moan about the RAF on the way.
  • ydoethur said:

    a tweet that has not aged well....

    It's aged so badly I can't see it.
    The tweet atop this thread header.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    I did speak to a former Tory adviser on this.

    Their view was Boris Johnson and the Tories will deny Scotland a referendum for as long as they are in power then let Labour take the can for losing Scotland.

    Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson doesn't want to be seen as the modern day Lord North.

    If they deny Scotland a referendum they won't be in power for long, it will get very messy.
    The Lord North analogy is an interesting one: as I recall Britain's North American colonies have done alright for themselves since becoming independent.
    Yes, but it didn’t go so well for the original inhabitants.
    Indeed, but they weren't the ones seeking independence.
    It's just interesting that in the Tory mind, Scottish independence is likened to losing a colony (and it can't be admitted that the erstwhile colony prospered afterwards).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    a tweet that has not aged well....

    It's aged so badly I can't see it.
    The tweet atop this thread header.
    Ah. That would explain why I couldn't see it given I access through the VF page.

    No, it hasn't aged well.

    Although the man in the picture has noticeably aged.

    Can't think why.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    dixiedean said:

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    So, in this way, as many others, completely deluded?
    whether deluded or not, this is an enormous issue. The polls show that the general population don;t really care which university Tarquin and Jocasta are going to in October. Its a giant nothing burger.

    Botch Brexit and fail to stop those boats?? Those are huge issues for the tories. A soft brexit in particular.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    Mr Meeks is, of course, correct that the absolute number is migrants crossing the channel is likely to be very small. This is peak sailing season, and few will risk making the crossing in the windier months. At most, perhaps 5,000 will come by boats this year.

    So, as far as genuine existential threats to the UK, the boats ain't it.

    But why the comparison with the number of Covid dead? The implication is that we should be looking to swap those who die for asylum seekers, which is just bizarre.
    Well, we are quite short of care home workers. Perhaps it's a new recruitment strategy?

    I did find it amusing though that a nation that lionises the disaster that was Dunkirk gets so worked up about a few people crossing in pedaloes. Surely we should be pleased to see the old ways kept up?
    A great enthusiasm for British traditions, they even get to moan about the RAF on the way.
    And now the Navy will be picking them up en route as well.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Off topic, just catching up with other news. I think Huawei will go out of business within 12 months, the government should plan accordingly wrt 5G. The US has completely and utterly destroyed the Huawei supply chain with the latest round of sanctions. I don't see how they will be able to source anything now that companies who use US software can no longer sell to them or lose access to US technologies.

    It does go to show just how powerful the US is. They are bringing down the Chinese national champion before our very eyes with basically no international coordination and unilateral action to freeze Huawei out of the US derived supply chain. If the next president has half of this gumption then they could truly bring China to its knees very quickly. Being a customer is always more powerful than being the retailer, it turns out. I also hope Germany are paying very close attention, there is a lot of unease in the US (in both parties) about the size of the US/Germany deficit sanctions targeting the EU due to national security concerns around the Nord Stream pipeline could be something to look out for. We've seen how China have been incapable of resisting these kinds of sanctions and Huawei will fall, I hope that Germany doesn't ignore this lesson.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    a tweet that has not aged well....

    As for bad predictions it’s up there with this piece which I don’t think has ever been shared on PB...

    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
    Speaking of statements that have not aged well, the author of this has occasionally been touted as a figurehead for Bettertogether II.

    'I’ve heard it said that ‘we’ve got to leave, because they’ll punish us if we don’t’, but my guess is that if we vote to stay, we will be in the heady position of the spouse who looked like walking out, but decided to give things one last go. All the major political parties are currently wooing us with offers of extra powers, keen to keep Scotland happy so that it does not hold an independence referendum every ten years and cause uncertainty and turmoil all over again. I doubt whether we will ever have been more popular, or in a better position to dictate terms, than if we vote to stay.'
  • So it's true, newest Opinium has Labour 47% to 43% in Tory 2019 gains, 47% to 42% in Labour seats lost since 2005, so it looks like this is what is informing Keir's seat visits
  • LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth

    Yes, that’s true and something Farage was at pains to point out numerous times during the brexit debates?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    Scathing thread header.

    I'm not sure I agree with the central thesis though.

    I think Boris denying Sturgeon on independence will have very few ramifications with his base. He can easily portray it as saying no to difficult Scots/standing up for Britain etc.

    And I don't think English voters being keen on English independence is equivalent to them being keen on Scottish independence.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    Well he's factually right, and what a snowflake you are, getting triggered like that.

    Toby Young's Free Speech Union would have you out on your ear.
    Was Tony Blair responsible for the 48,000 excess deaths in the Winter of 99/2000?
    Alastair has not put a number on "all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence" and I didn't read it as suggesting every excess death this year was the responsibility of the Government.

    But it is reasonably uncontroversial that aspects of the Government's response (particularly very late lockdown and PPE shortages) contributed significantly to the UK death reate being very much on the high side internationally.
    How many 'excess deaths' did Tony's War in Iraq cause?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,427
    ydoethur said:

    So which way is Putin going to jump? Because if we're honest, that's what's going to be decisive now. Lukashenko can't survive without help, but he won't be dislodged peacefully.

    Does Putin try to shore up a leader who makes Nicholas Maduro look popular and legitimate, or tell him to do one and gain kudos by facilitating a power transfer to the opposition?

    Any pointers yet?
    Putin wants to be on the side of the winner, and he wants the winner to be grateful for his support. So looks like he will watch and wait for now, then throw his support behind whichever opposition figure is most pro-Putin if it doesn't blow over.

    One of the reasons Lukashenko is in so much danger is that the opposition isn't notably pro-West, or anti-Putin, so he's much more expendable.
  • LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    That is a fantastic analogy, well done.

    Very good and very true.

    [Though I'd switch Man Utd with Liverpool but I won't grumble . . . mustn't grumble]
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth

    Yes, that’s true and something Farage was at pains to point out numerous times during the brexit debates?
    I don't know whether its true or not, but voters are utterly sick of the attitude of many modern politicians, whereby we're told by that Britain is at the same time a lovely haven for refugees fleeing persecution, and also a land choc full of knuckle dragging shaven headed racists.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Pulpstar said:

    Legality of Scotsref2 is important via a vis Madrid and EU membership. But Scotland is in an act of union with England, not part of' the Kingdom of England' as Wales was folded up into - so I think there's enough law on the Mats side to force it regardless of Johnson's wishes if push comes to shove

    I was just thinking the same.

    The Supreme Court of the UK would love to give a ruling on Indyref2, which would inevitably go against the UK Government.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Andy_JS said:
    They won't lighten up.

    This is simply yet another example of cancel culture.

    It feeds the conspiracy and thus undermines the ultimate causes of what companies like Twitter claim to support.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.
    Nobody realistically expects 3m HKers to turn up in one go. Though, if we ended up taking in 500k over three or four years (the most likely outcome) I don't think it would be a big deal and I don't think it would cause issues either because everyone knows that HKers are hard working, will integrate well and they won't try and turn where they live into a third world shit hole with honour killing, FGM and other such barbarism that we've imported from other cultures.
  • LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.

    That’s a great argument to win people over. Some of these refugees may be useless but there are plenty of others here who are useless so it doesn’t matter
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    MaxPB said:

    Off topic, just catching up with other news. I think Huawei will go out of business within 12 months, the government should plan accordingly wrt 5G. The US has completely and utterly destroyed the Huawei supply chain with the latest round of sanctions. I don't see how they will be able to source anything now that companies who use US software can no longer sell to them or lose access to US technologies.

    It does go to show just how powerful the US is. They are bringing down the Chinese national champion before our very eyes with basically no international coordination and unilateral action to freeze Huawei out of the US derived supply chain. If the next president has half of this gumption then they could truly bring China to its knees very quickly. Being a customer is always more powerful than being the retailer, it turns out. I also hope Germany are paying very close attention, there is a lot of unease in the US (in both parties) about the size of the US/Germany deficit sanctions targeting the EU due to national security concerns around the Nord Stream pipeline could be something to look out for. We've seen how China have been incapable of resisting these kinds of sanctions and Huawei will fall, I hope that Germany doesn't ignore this lesson.

    I hope that's true.

    One good thing about the Trump Presidency (yes, there have been a few) has been how it's stood up to China in a way Obama never would have done.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    So it's true, newest Opinium has Labour 47% to 43% in Tory 2019 gains, 47% to 42% in Labour seats lost since 2005, so it looks like this is what is informing Keir's seat visits

    Any idea what that works out to in terms of seats?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Isn't the above what Jon Curtice also found

    It is what any sensible intelligent person would find.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.
    Who cares? they are not coming on our terms. They are coming on their terms. They are coming on the people traffickers terms.

    Jurgen Klopp does not take 20 random footballers who want to play for Liverpool on the off chance there might be a Messi in there.

    They are watched. They are scouted. They are tapped up. They are selected. They sign contracts that demand levels of commitment and conduct.

    THAT is what many of the voters of England want for their immigration system. Crucially Farage understands that. Very few others do.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.

    That’s a great argument to win people over. Some of these refugees may be useless but there are plenty of others here who are useless so it doesn’t matter
    There's no point saying they're all going to be Nobel prize winners because it's obviously not true. I'm simply saying that they are people just like you and me and they shouldn't be treated like some kind of invading army, or used as a political football.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth

    Yes, that’s true and something Farage was at pains to point out numerous times during the brexit debates?
    I don't know whether its true or not, but voters are utterly sick of the attitude of many modern politicians, whereby we're told by that Britain is at the same time a lovely haven for refugees fleeing persecution, and also a land choc full of knuckle dragging shaven headed racists.

    Well I'm a voter, and what I'm utterly sick of is the modern politicians who exploit the arrival of a handful of desperate refugees to distract from the many serious problems facing the country and their complete incompetence in attempting to tackle them.
    I hope that is sufficiently contrarian for you.
    That's so far from the truth its untrue.

    I'd be surprised if Priti Patel didn't get up in the morning and throw darts at pictures of Nigel Farage from dawn til dusk. Those boats are the last thing she and her department want in the news because the motivation to do things about them by both is patently precisely zero.

    This isn;t coming from the top, its coming from grassroots.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    Excellent post.

    It resonates because its uncontrolled. Control of a nation's borders is very visceral - no Government could tolerate or shrug off illegal intrusions like this, which are very easily reported - as it makes it look incompetent, useless and creates the perception that if it can't control something basic like that then it has no firm control on anything.

    It also strikes against the British sense of fair play. Everyone knows the vast majority are healthy young men, who can afford to pay the smugglers, who are tutored to ditch their papers, contact the right lawyers, claim persecution, and stick to the right story to get asylum when they get here. Meanwhile there are thousands of vulnerable others in genuine real need who get tortured or killed under oppressive and authoritarian regimes.

    I've said before that the British would accept higher levels of legitimate and legal asylum claimants provided they had control and the process was fair.

    So this tiresome racist v.anti-racist narrative that's made out of it is just tedious culture war hogwash by preening narcissists.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Pulpstar said:

    Legality of Scotsref2 is important via a vis Madrid and EU membership. But Scotland is in an act of union with England, not part of' the Kingdom of England' as Wales was folded up into - so I think there's enough law on the Mats side to force it regardless of Johnson's wishes if push comes to shove

    No. Boris will not grant a referendum because of the reason Meeks cites: there's a good chance he will lose it (though remember these polls could change, volatility is the order of the day).

    He will use the "once in a generation" line, and the fact this *might* cause extra grievance in Scotland will not bother him, given that he's likely to lose anyway. Better to wait, hand over the mess to the next government. He is determined not to be the PM that loses the Union. He will not risk it.

    And if it goes to the Supreme Court the govt will win, referendums are a reserved matter: an issue for Westminster. This isn't a legal grey area.

    All that said, Meeks is right on his central point, a massive constitutional brouhaha is a-coming, which will reach its peak in the late 2020s. What joy.

    I see two ways of defusing it:

    1, a huge royal commission establishing a proper Federal Britain with a new House of Federal Lords (in Edinburgh?)

    2, Labour promising a new referendum in 2024, taking us back into the EU. The more I think about it, the more I see this as possible. We're in for a torrid few years and by 2023 rejoining the EU might seem quite seductive: and it would likely solve the Scottish problem (and give Starmer some Scots MPs)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    Andy_JS said:
    No case since May it seems. Bodes well for our Christmas party season, though not in a waterpark please.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Legality of Scotsref2 is important via a vis Madrid and EU membership. But Scotland is in an act of union with England, not part of' the Kingdom of England' as Wales was folded up into - so I think there's enough law on the Mats side to force it regardless of Johnson's wishes if push comes to shove

    No. Boris will not grant a referendum because of the reason Meeks cites: there's a good chance he will lose it (though remember these polls could change, volatility is the order of the day).

    He will use the "once in a generation" line, and the fact this *might* cause extra grievance in Scotland will not bother him, given that he's likely to lose anyway. Better to wait, hand over the mess to the next government. He is determined not to be the PM that loses the Union. He will not risk it.

    And if it goes to the Supreme Court the govt will win, referendums are a reserved matter: an issue for Westminster. This isn't a legal grey area.

    All that said, Meeks is right on his central point, a massive constitutional brouhaha is a-coming, which will reach its peak in the late 2020s. What joy.

    I see two ways of defusing it:

    1, a huge royal commission establishing a proper Federal Britain with a new House of Federal Lords (in Edinburgh?)
    Edinburgh would be a bad choice. Too partisan.

    Smart place would be Liverpool, which is about in the middle of the four capitals.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.

    That’s a great argument to win people over. Some of these refugees may be useless but there are plenty of others here who are useless so it doesn’t matter
    There's no point saying they're all going to be Nobel prize winners because it's obviously not true. I'm simply saying that they are people just like you and me and they shouldn't be treated like some kind of invading army, or used as a political football.
    The Left absolutely love them because they're perfect to exploit to demonstrate their own virtues with.

    Meanwhile they are by and large illegal economic migrants, and privileged ones at that able to afford several thousand pounds, where the real deserving for asylum languish elsewhere.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.
    Who cares? they are not coming on our terms. They are coming on their terms. They are coming on the people traffickers terms.

    Jurgen Klopp does not take 20 random footballers who want to play for Liverpool on the off chance there might be a Messi in there.

    They are watched. They are scouted. They are tapped up. They are selected. They sign contracts that demand levels of commitment and conduct.

    THAT is what many of the voters of England want for their immigration system. Crucially Farage understands that. Very few others do.
    In a world where refugees exist you can't simply take in who you want, unless you think refugees are someone else's problem (many people in this country thought that in the 1930s, I think they were wrong then and now). This is where your football team analogy falls down.
  • LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    Excellent post.

    It resonates because its uncontrolled. Control of a nation's borders is very visceral - no Government could tolerate or shrug off illegal intrusions like this, which are very easily reported - as it makes it look incompetent, useless and creates the perception that if it can't control something basic like that then it has no firm control on anything.

    It also strikes against the British sense of fair play. Everyone knows the vast majority are healthy young men, who can afford to pay the smugglers, who are tutored to ditch their papers, contact the right lawyers, claim persecution, and stick to the right story to get asylum when they get here. Meanwhile there are thousands of vulnerable others in genuine real need who get tortured or killed under oppressive and authoritarian regimes.

    I've said before that the British would accept higher levels of legitimate and legal asylum claimants provided they had control and the process was fair.

    So this tiresome racist v.anti-racist narrative that's made out of it is just tedious culture war hogwash by preening narcissists.
    In which case why is it so rare to see people calling out for a fair, legal way to claim asylum in the UK for genuine asylum seekers?

    That's surely what's missing here, yet the narrative never suggests huge demand for the government to go down that route.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth

    Yes, that’s true and something Farage was at pains to point out numerous times during the brexit debates?
    I don't know whether its true or not, but voters are utterly sick of the attitude of many modern politicians, whereby we're told by that Britain is at the same time a lovely haven for refugees fleeing persecution, and also a land choc full of knuckle dragging shaven headed racists.

    Well I'm a voter, and what I'm utterly sick of is the modern politicians who exploit the arrival of a handful of desperate refugees to distract from the many serious problems facing the country and their complete incompetence in attempting to tackle them.
    I hope that is sufficiently contrarian for you.
    That's so far from the truth its untrue.

    I'd be surprised if Priti Patel didn't get up in the morning and throw darts at pictures of Nigel Farage from dawn til dusk. Those boats are the last thing she and her department want in the news because the motivation to do things about them by both is patently precisely zero.

    This isn;t coming from the top, its coming from grassroots.
    Its not contrarian though is it? Indeed it is pretty common or garden opinion.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth

    Yes, that’s true and something Farage was at pains to point out numerous times during the brexit debates?
    I don't know whether its true or not, but voters are utterly sick of the attitude of many modern politicians, whereby we're told by that Britain is at the same time a lovely haven for refugees fleeing persecution, and also a land choc full of knuckle dragging shaven headed racists.

    Well I'm a voter, and what I'm utterly sick of is the modern politicians who exploit the arrival of a handful of desperate refugees to distract from the many serious problems facing the country and their complete incompetence in attempting to tackle them.
    I hope that is sufficiently contrarian for you.
    It's not contrarian. If only.

    It's utterly predictable and me-too ish.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Have they really banned Titania McGrath? I gave up on Twitter months ago but Jeez. That is utterly spineless. They allow all kinds of vile leftwing outlets spewing hatred. But a mild bit of anti-woke satire is too much?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Surreal scenes at Sophia Gardens where they have lost the ball.

    You don't see a team hunting under the covers too often at first class level.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Andy_JS said:
    Not sure this sort of thing is a brilliant idea. Grassroots sports is something that needs to be got underway first before mass events anyhow.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.

    That’s a great argument to win people over. Some of these refugees may be useless but there are plenty of others here who are useless so it doesn’t matter
    There's no point saying they're all going to be Nobel prize winners because it's obviously not true. I'm simply saying that they are people just like you and me and they shouldn't be treated like some kind of invading army, or used as a political football.
    Anybody who wants to win elections in England in the future will have to get immigration right.

    And that means seeing England as a football club and the government as the chief scout.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.

    That’s a great argument to win people over. Some of these refugees may be useless but there are plenty of others here who are useless so it doesn’t matter
    There's no point saying they're all going to be Nobel prize winners because it's obviously not true. I'm simply saying that they are people just like you and me and they shouldn't be treated like some kind of invading army, or used as a political football.
    The Left absolutely love them because they're perfect to exploit to demonstrate their own virtues with.

    Meanwhile they are by and large illegal economic migrants, and privileged ones at that able to afford several thousand pounds, where the real deserving for asylum languish elsewhere.
    Isn't it correct though that despite all the legal hurdles most asylum seekers are found to be genuine refugees by our Home Office?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.

    That’s a great argument to win people over. Some of these refugees may be useless but there are plenty of others here who are useless so it doesn’t matter
    There's no point saying they're all going to be Nobel prize winners because it's obviously not true. I'm simply saying that they are people just like you and me and they shouldn't be treated like some kind of invading army, or used as a political football.
    The Left absolutely love them because they're perfect to exploit to demonstrate their own virtues with.

    Meanwhile they are by and large illegal economic migrants, and privileged ones at that able to afford several thousand pounds, where the real deserving for asylum languish elsewhere.
    Saying that refugees are people like you and me isn't virtuous, it's just stating a fact. Of course if you want to organise an airlift of "genuine" refugees from a few conflict hotspots then be my guest. Otherwise I would suggest that we deal with the ones that find their own way here.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Andy_JS said:
    Perhaps someone more familiar with the oeuvre of Titania McGrath (& who presumably finds it funny) could clarify, is it deliberate that she physically resembles the somewhat overfed Camilla Long? I thought the latter was more a wannabe Hartley-Brewer or Pearson.

    Maybe I just don't have a sense of humour.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Only 545 postivie covid cases in English Hospitals now
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Only 545 postivie covid cases in English Hospitals now

    All the rest of them truly suck.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    If 3mn HK Chinese turn up I am certain they will face plenty of hostility, including from the tabloid press. The fact is, neither you nor I know anything about the people crossing the channel right now. Some of them might have been doctors or engineers in their own country. To simply assert that they have no skills and nothing to contribute is ridiculous. And even if some of them are a burden, we have obligations to host refugees. It's not as if we don't already have plenty of useless people here already - indeed many of them are running the country.
    Who cares? they are not coming on our terms. They are coming on their terms. They are coming on the people traffickers terms.

    Jurgen Klopp does not take 20 random footballers who want to play for Liverpool on the off chance there might be a Messi in there.

    They are watched. They are scouted. They are tapped up. They are selected. They sign contracts that demand levels of commitment and conduct.

    THAT is what many of the voters of England want for their immigration system. Crucially Farage understands that. Very few others do.
    In a world where refugees exist you can't simply take in who you want, unless you think refugees are someone else's problem (many people in this country thought that in the 1930s, I think they were wrong then and now). This is where your football team analogy falls down.
    These people are not refugees. Its as if Paris St Germain took on a huge contingent of random footballers and we decided to pay a fortune for a contingent of them. Untested. Untrialled. Unsifted. With no strings.

    Its not good enough and it won;t be accepted as good enough in the future, I don;t think.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    LadyG said:

    Mr Meeks is a fine writer, but this is one of the worst sentences - in so many ways - that I have ever seen on PB

    "The number of undocumented migrants crossing the English Channel does not begin to fill the gaps left by all those people who needlessly died with Covid-19 owing to the government’s negligence"

    Tasteless, toneless, valueless, pointless.

    He's right though, isn't he?
    You completely miss the point. Completely. It isn;t about numbers.

    Why do you think there is so much concern about migrant boats, and yet when we offer 3m HK chinese pathways to passports nobody bats an eyelid?

    Here's why.

    Brexiteers see Britain as the Real Madrid and Manchester United of immigration rolled into one.

    They think we have our pick. We can choose exactly who we want to play for our team, when we want them to play and the size of the squad we want from overseas players. The demand is enormous. Patently.

    Brexitters are tired of what they see as third division players with no skills who are also not team players and cost a fortune to maintain.

    And I'll tell you what. Labour will never form a government again until they grasp this simple truth
    Excellent post.

    It resonates because its uncontrolled. Control of a nation's borders is very visceral - no Government could tolerate or shrug off illegal intrusions like this, which are very easily reported - as it makes it look incompetent, useless and creates the perception that if it can't control something basic like that then it has no firm control on anything.

    It also strikes against the British sense of fair play. Everyone knows the vast majority are healthy young men, who can afford to pay the smugglers, who are tutored to ditch their papers, contact the right lawyers, claim persecution, and stick to the right story to get asylum when they get here. Meanwhile there are thousands of vulnerable others in genuine real need who get tortured or killed under oppressive and authoritarian regimes.

    I've said before that the British would accept higher levels of legitimate and legal asylum claimants provided they had control and the process was fair.

    So this tiresome racist v.anti-racist narrative that's made out of it is just tedious culture war hogwash by preening narcissists.
    In which case why is it so rare to see people calling out for a fair, legal way to claim asylum in the UK for genuine asylum seekers?

    That's surely what's missing here, yet the narrative never suggests huge demand for the government to go down that route.
    Because we implemented a fair legal way for the syrian refugees. Cameron much as I dislike him actually did the right thing and funded camps and set up a system to take asylum seekers applying from camps.

    Still the left whinged that we should be taking every tom dick and harry that could make it to the shore here. We should instead have sent them straight to the camp and for each one sent taken a genuine refugee
This discussion has been closed.