Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The prospect of a vaccine by Christmas dominates the front pag

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited July 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The prospect of a vaccine by Christmas dominates the front pages

A month ago I wrote here of the experiences of a friend of mine who had just left hospital after being struck down with Covid19 and concluded that the only way this crisis would come to an end was when a vaccine or palliative was widely available.

Read the full story here

«134567

Comments

  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    First?
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Tim_B said:

    First?

    Of course you are first! How many people are up at this time of night?
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    First?

    Of course you are first! How many people are up at this time of night?
    It's 11pm where I am :smiley:
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    First?

    Of course you are first! How many people are up at this time of night?
    It's 11pm where I am :smiley:
    It ain't 11pm here ... :D
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    First?

    Of course you are first! How many people are up at this time of night?
    It's 11pm where I am :smiley:
    It ain't 11pm here ... :D
    I'm in the US. Where are you?
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I am in the UK and wrote this an hour ago. I have insomnia
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    It is potentially great news. Here's hoping.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    I am in the UK and wrote this an hour ago. I have insomnia

    Sorry to hear that. Is it a Libdem thing? :smiley:
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    That Boris has written about the vaccine development without his trademark hyperbole is an indication of how significant this is
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Tim_B said:

    I am in the UK and wrote this an hour ago. I have insomnia

    Sorry to hear that. Is it a Libdem thing? :smiley:
    I don't think it is linked to politics but to age and the need to get up several times a night to have a wee
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    I am in the UK and wrote this an hour ago. I have insomnia

    Sorry to hear that. Is it a Libdem thing? :smiley:
    I don't think it is linked to politics but to age and the need to get up several times a night to have a wee
    I take a Lasix about 4pm and by the time bedtime comes around I don't need to take a wee for about 8 hours. It's like being a deflated football.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    Botox to the bladder. That's the way to deal with middle of the night wee issues.

    Plus, you end with a beautiful smooth looking bladder.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    rcs1000 said:

    Botox to the bladder. That's the way to deal with middle of the night wee issues.

    Plus, you end with a beautiful smooth looking bladder.

    You just stand there, point percy at the porcelain, and say aaahhh for about 2 minutes. Your wrists and ankles get thinner, your shirt collars are looser, and you have calves like a gazelle and thighs like tug boats.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,379
    USA Democrat Veep nominee betting (Ladbrokes prices; boosts may be available).

    Kamala Harris Evens
    Susan Rice 3/1
    Tammy Duckworth 6/1
    Elizabeth Warren 12/1
    Val Demings 12/1
    Karen Bass 20/1
    Michelle Obama 20/1
    Keisha Lance Bottoms 33/1
    Michelle Lujan Grisham 33/1
    Stacey Abrams 50/1

    That is all of those Shadsy lists at less than 100/1 and is posted because I too have a botox-free bladder and as a reminder of the perceived ranking of the likely candidates.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    USA Democrat Veep nominee betting (Ladbrokes prices; boosts may be available).

    Kamala Harris Evens
    Susan Rice 3/1
    Tammy Duckworth 6/1
    Elizabeth Warren 12/1
    Val Demings 12/1
    Karen Bass 20/1
    Michelle Obama 20/1
    Keisha Lance Bottoms 33/1
    Michelle Lujan Grisham 33/1
    Stacey Abrams 50/1

    That is all of those Shadsy lists at less than 100/1 and is posted because I too have a botox-free bladder and as a reminder of the perceived ranking of the likely candidates.

    Because I'm incredibly generous, I'll offer 25/1 on Michelle Obama, or any other member of the Obama family.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060
    rcs1000 said:

    USA Democrat Veep nominee betting (Ladbrokes prices; boosts may be available).

    Kamala Harris Evens
    Susan Rice 3/1
    Tammy Duckworth 6/1
    Elizabeth Warren 12/1
    Val Demings 12/1
    Karen Bass 20/1
    Michelle Obama 20/1
    Keisha Lance Bottoms 33/1
    Michelle Lujan Grisham 33/1
    Stacey Abrams 50/1

    That is all of those Shadsy lists at less than 100/1 and is posted because I too have a botox-free bladder and as a reminder of the perceived ranking of the likely candidates.

    Because I'm incredibly generous, I'll offer 25/1 on Michelle Obama, or any other member of the Obama family.
    Are you using Barack's definition of his family?

    https://twitter.com/obamawhitehouse/status/540264863658823682
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,379
    edited July 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    USA Democrat Veep nominee betting (Ladbrokes prices; boosts may be available).

    Kamala Harris Evens
    Susan Rice 3/1
    Tammy Duckworth 6/1
    Elizabeth Warren 12/1
    Val Demings 12/1
    Karen Bass 20/1
    Michelle Obama 20/1
    Keisha Lance Bottoms 33/1
    Michelle Lujan Grisham 33/1
    Stacey Abrams 50/1

    That is all of those Shadsy lists at less than 100/1 and is posted because I too have a botox-free bladder and as a reminder of the perceived ranking of the likely candidates.

    Because I'm incredibly generous, I'll offer 25/1 on Michelle Obama, or any other member of the Obama family.
    According to the Reuters report posted a couple of days ago, Biden's team will finish its background checks this week so it is possible their might be leaks. It was noted recently that Stacey Abrams was heavily laid on Betfair.
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-election-biden-running-mate/biden-facing-pressure-within-party-as-running-mate-search-enters-final-phase-idUKKCN24I17Y

    The Times reports (following PB and American media) that Karen Bass has recently made the frame.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/joe-biden-considers-congresswoman-karen-bass-as-presidential-election-ally-5jdxbkt5p
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    On insomnia: there is a lot of it about! In my case it being the cat wanting to go out!

    In other news:

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1285431831798730753?s=19
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Cautious optimism on the vaccine news. Sky have put together a useful little piece highlighting the three leading vaccines and their different approaches. https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-oxford-covid-19-vaccine-12032848

    I think the 'cautious' adjective is rather important in context. We really don't yet know how effective these vaccines could be, nor for how long any immune responses might last.
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    I am in the UK and wrote this an hour ago. I have insomnia

    My usual rising time is 0445, like clockwork. And then a big breakfast. Soon it'll be dark when I arise. Damn.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597

    That Boris has written about the vaccine development without his trademark hyperbole is an indication of how significant this is

    Yes, even he has noticed.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Fingers crossed that’s good news on a vaccine. The world is a very weird place when there’s a nasty virus going round.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    I have to agree. Without the hype, the news is that it has passed phase 1 trials which means only that it doesn't immediately kill people stone dead. The overtones of "all over by Christmas" seem to be lost on the headline writers.

    "Die-effects" = side-effects presumably, though it comes to the same thing.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    IshmaelZ said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    I have to agree. Without the hype, the news is that it has passed phase 1 trials which means only that it doesn't immediately kill people stone dead. The overtones of "all over by Christmas" seem to be lost on the headline writers.

    "Die-effects" = side-effects presumably, though it comes to the same thing.
    LOL. Lack of re-reading before actually posting. I probably left out the 'd' in 'side' and the 'helpful' little imp in the programme jumped to the wrong conclusion!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597
    IshmaelZ said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    I have to agree. Without the hype, the news is that it has passed phase 1 trials which means only that it doesn't immediately kill people stone dead. The overtones of "all over by Christmas" seem to be lost on the headline writers.

    "Die-effects" = side-effects presumably, though it comes to the same thing.
    Perhaps so, but data from human trials was published for four different vaccines yesterday, and all showed the production of neutralising antibodies and T cells.

    It’s not going to be over by Christmas, but the strong prospect of effective vaccines is there. In the meantime, the widespread use of masks would ensure the least disruption to our lives.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    There seems to be something seriously wrong with Vanilla this morning. It’s hard work loading nested comments via the main site and it’s damn near impossible via Vanilla’s front page.

    It’s been getting more unreliable for a while, but this is even worse than normal.
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Just a wee idea. For "Dragons' Den"?

    Vanity face masks. Like individually designed tee shirts.
    Someone's probably already thought of it.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    Foxy said:

    On insomnia: there is a lot of it about! In my case it being the cat wanting to go out!

    In other news:

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1285431831798730753?s=19

    One day someone will come up with a technological solution to that one.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,949
    Toms said:

    Just a wee idea. For "Dragons' Den"?

    Vanity face masks. Like individually designed tee shirts.
    Someone's probably already thought of it.

    You can get masks that are prints of your own face.

    They are creepy AF
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    Even if the vaccine isn't for you, the spread of the virus can be meaningfully slowed by making sure that (young) front line workers get it.
  • Options
    coachcoach Posts: 250
    There's every chance a vaccine will create as many problems as it solves, unless its compulsory for everybody (which is impossible to monitor) its largely irrelevant.

    Like every other virus ever this just has to run its course as it already is. I appreciate that gets the scaredy cats in a tizz but its reality.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Scott_xP said:

    Toms said:

    Just a wee idea. For "Dragons' Den"?

    Vanity face masks. Like individually designed tee shirts.
    Someone's probably already thought of it.

    You can get masks that are prints of your own face.

    They are creepy AF
    I wonder, is there a 'MAGA' one in the US!
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Huge EU news overnight. A triumph for Merkel and, especially, Macron. From a Brexit perspective, the EU27 have once again shown they can work effectively together and compromise to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. But it will also mean they will be under less pressure to reach a deal that does not fit their overall objectives. Once again, those in the UK predicting the EU’s fragmentation and failure have been proved wrong. I guess we’ll never understand what drives it and just how strong the will is for it to succeed.
  • Options
    coachcoach Posts: 250

    Huge EU news overnight. A triumph for Merkel and, especially, Macron. From a Brexit perspective, the EU27 have once again shown they can work effectively together and compromise to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. But it will also mean they will be under less pressure to reach a deal that does not fit their overall objectives. Once again, those in the UK predicting the EU’s fragmentation and failure have been proved wrong. I guess we’ll never understand what drives it and just how strong the will is for it to succeed.

    That's certainly true of EU politicians but less so of its subjects. What drives it is the 1000s of bureaucrats earning big money from it
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    rcs1000 said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    Even if the vaccine isn't for you, the spread of the virus can be meaningfully slowed by making sure that (young) front line workers get it.
    Seems harsh
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    edited July 2020
    Deleted. Vanilla quirk!
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    coach said:

    Huge EU news overnight. A triumph for Merkel and, especially, Macron. From a Brexit perspective, the EU27 have once again shown they can work effectively together and compromise to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. But it will also mean they will be under less pressure to reach a deal that does not fit their overall objectives. Once again, those in the UK predicting the EU’s fragmentation and failure have been proved wrong. I guess we’ll never understand what drives it and just how strong the will is for it to succeed.

    That's certainly true of EU politicians but less so of its subjects. What drives it is the 1000s of bureaucrats earning big money from it
    Where do these 1000’s of EU bureaucrats work? The deal is good for all of the EU 27 it’s not charity it’s mutual self interest. Classic anti EU sentiment only ever looking at the inputs and only ever in cold cash terms.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    Huge EU news overnight. A triumph for Merkel and, especially, Macron. From a Brexit perspective, the EU27 have once again shown they can work effectively together and compromise to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. But it will also mean they will be under less pressure to reach a deal that does not fit their overall objectives. Once again, those in the UK predicting the EU’s fragmentation and failure have been proved wrong. I guess we’ll never understand what drives it and just how strong the will is for it to succeed.

    At what price?

    The final outcome is a messy bundle of compromises. As part of the deal, the “frugals” will receive significant increases in the rebates they receive on their budget contributions, a throwback from 1984 when Margaret Thatcher secured discounts on the UK’s out-sized budget contributions.

    And...

    On the rule of law, France, Germany and other countries had wanted a link to EU funds but Hungary and Poland’s governments, who have been previously accused of undermining judicial independence and minority rights, rejected this plan.

    The compromise agreed by the leaders instead puts off designing a rule of law mechanism for another day with agreement to be made by a qualified majority of member states.

    The final deal on Monday also swung in Poland’s favour by watering down a demand to link green transition funds to signing up to the 2050 climate target to the consternation of activist groups and senior MEPs.

    Poland, which stands to gain €37bn in grants from the fund, plus potentially billions more from a “just transition fund” to move away from coal, is the only EU member state not to have made the 2050 pledge.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/20/macron-seeks-end-acrimony-eu-summit-enters-fourth-day
  • Options
    coachcoach Posts: 250
    Scott_xP said:
    Most people are still oblivious or in denial. At the moment Sunak is popular, give it until Christmas
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    coach said:

    There's every chance a vaccine will create as many problems as it solves, unless its compulsory for everybody (which is impossible to monitor) its largely irrelevant.

    Like every other virus ever this just has to run its course as it already is. I appreciate that gets the scaredy cats in a tizz but its reality.

    I don't think that as an elderly man who is mildly asthmatic I could fairly be described as a 'scaredy-cat'. I'm very worried by the prospect of the virus.

    However, as one who, at a local level was involved with school vaccination campaigns..... meningitis etc ....... I do wonder about the way a mass vaccination campaign will be conducted, if Hancock gets anywhere near it!
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    rcs1000 said:

    Botox to the bladder. That's the way to deal with middle of the night wee issues.

    Plus, you end with a beautiful smooth looking bladder.

    How many others posting here know what the inside of their bladders look like?
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    Having just read through last night’s thread can I add “free movement” to the “accurate but misleading” column?
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,335
    tlg86 said:

    Huge EU news overnight. A triumph for Merkel and, especially, Macron. From a Brexit perspective, the EU27 have once again shown they can work effectively together and compromise to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. But it will also mean they will be under less pressure to reach a deal that does not fit their overall objectives. Once again, those in the UK predicting the EU’s fragmentation and failure have been proved wrong. I guess we’ll never understand what drives it and just how strong the will is for it to succeed.

    At what price?

    The final outcome is a messy bundle of compromises. As part of the deal, the “frugals” will receive significant increases in the rebates they receive on their budget contributions, a throwback from 1984 when Margaret Thatcher secured discounts on the UK’s out-sized budget contributions.

    And...

    On the rule of law, France, Germany and other countries had wanted a link to EU funds but Hungary and Poland’s governments, who have been previously accused of undermining judicial independence and minority rights, rejected this plan.

    The compromise agreed by the leaders instead puts off designing a rule of law mechanism for another day with agreement to be made by a qualified majority of member states.

    The final deal on Monday also swung in Poland’s favour by watering down a demand to link green transition funds to signing up to the 2050 climate target to the consternation of activist groups and senior MEPs.

    Poland, which stands to gain €37bn in grants from the fund, plus potentially billions more from a “just transition fund” to move away from coal, is the only EU member state not to have made the 2050 pledge.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/20/macron-seeks-end-acrimony-eu-summit-enters-fourth-day
    It's a compromise, as EU decisions always are. But the phrase "agreement to be made by a qualified majority of member states" is a ticking bomb as far as Hungary and Poland are concerned - the veto power that they had to protect each other in breaches of democracy has gone. Overall, Southam is right that it's a good result for the EU.

    In the end, I suspect that Congress will come through with their similar current negotiations. The situation is too serious to allow them to fail.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,740

    Scott_xP said:

    Toms said:

    Just a wee idea. For "Dragons' Den"?

    Vanity face masks. Like individually designed tee shirts.
    Someone's probably already thought of it.

    You can get masks that are prints of your own face.

    They are creepy AF
    I wonder, is there a 'MAGA' one in the US!
    Surely some mistake, it must be KAG after four years of the most bigly talented President ever? No?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    coach said:

    Huge EU news overnight. A triumph for Merkel and, especially, Macron. From a Brexit perspective, the EU27 have once again shown they can work effectively together and compromise to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. But it will also mean they will be under less pressure to reach a deal that does not fit their overall objectives. Once again, those in the UK predicting the EU’s fragmentation and failure have been proved wrong. I guess we’ll never understand what drives it and just how strong the will is for it to succeed.

    That's certainly true of EU politicians but less so of its subjects. What drives it is the 1000s of bureaucrats earning big money from it
    Coronavirus has made the EU more popular across the continent. It has given new impetus to the desire for social solidarity.


  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Toms said:

    Just a wee idea. For "Dragons' Den"?

    Vanity face masks. Like individually designed tee shirts.
    Someone's probably already thought of it.

    The Californians are onto that already!
    https://twitter.com/WhitneyCummings/status/1284912177376198658
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    The positive rumblings about a vaccine just make me depressed as it means even best case scenario 2020 is a complete wash, and more likely plenty of 2021 as well.
  • Options
    coachcoach Posts: 250
    nichomar said:

    coach said:

    Huge EU news overnight. A triumph for Merkel and, especially, Macron. From a Brexit perspective, the EU27 have once again shown they can work effectively together and compromise to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. But it will also mean they will be under less pressure to reach a deal that does not fit their overall objectives. Once again, those in the UK predicting the EU’s fragmentation and failure have been proved wrong. I guess we’ll never understand what drives it and just how strong the will is for it to succeed.

    That's certainly true of EU politicians but less so of its subjects. What drives it is the 1000s of bureaucrats earning big money from it
    Where do these 1000’s of EU bureaucrats work? The deal is good for all of the EU 27 it’s not charity it’s mutual self interest. Classic anti EU sentiment only ever looking at the inputs and only ever in cold cash terms.
    Brussels and Strasbourg mainly, a quick google search says 32000 of them.

    Ahhh yes, cold cash, where we all pay for those 32000 penpushers
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Having just read through last night’s thread can I add “free movement” to the “accurate but misleading” column?

    Yes. FoM means something very specific in the context of the EU, namely the right to live and work - in the U.K. this means the right to an NI number, state benefits and NHS treatment - nothing at all to do with rights of entry at border crossings.
  • Options
    coachcoach Posts: 250

    coach said:

    There's every chance a vaccine will create as many problems as it solves, unless its compulsory for everybody (which is impossible to monitor) its largely irrelevant.

    Like every other virus ever this just has to run its course as it already is. I appreciate that gets the scaredy cats in a tizz but its reality.

    I don't think that as an elderly man who is mildly asthmatic I could fairly be described as a 'scaredy-cat'. I'm very worried by the prospect of the virus.

    However, as one who, at a local level was involved with school vaccination campaigns..... meningitis etc ....... I do wonder about the way a mass vaccination campaign will be conducted, if Hancock gets anywhere near it!
    Its nothing to do with Hancock, who is useless. Lots of people will refuse the vaccine, others just won't bother.

    My point is that the vaccine itself will not be the solution
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    tlg86 said:

    Huge EU news overnight. A triumph for Merkel and, especially, Macron. From a Brexit perspective, the EU27 have once again shown they can work effectively together and compromise to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. But it will also mean they will be under less pressure to reach a deal that does not fit their overall objectives. Once again, those in the UK predicting the EU’s fragmentation and failure have been proved wrong. I guess we’ll never understand what drives it and just how strong the will is for it to succeed.

    At what price?

    The final outcome is a messy bundle of compromises. As part of the deal, the “frugals” will receive significant increases in the rebates they receive on their budget contributions, a throwback from 1984 when Margaret Thatcher secured discounts on the UK’s out-sized budget contributions.

    And...

    On the rule of law, France, Germany and other countries had wanted a link to EU funds but Hungary and Poland’s governments, who have been previously accused of undermining judicial independence and minority rights, rejected this plan.

    The compromise agreed by the leaders instead puts off designing a rule of law mechanism for another day with agreement to be made by a qualified majority of member states.

    The final deal on Monday also swung in Poland’s favour by watering down a demand to link green transition funds to signing up to the 2050 climate target to the consternation of activist groups and senior MEPs.

    Poland, which stands to gain €37bn in grants from the fund, plus potentially billions more from a “just transition fund” to move away from coal, is the only EU member state not to have made the 2050 pledge.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/20/macron-seeks-end-acrimony-eu-summit-enters-fourth-day
    It's a compromise, as EU decisions always are. But the phrase "agreement to be made by a qualified majority of member states" is a ticking bomb as far as Hungary and Poland are concerned - the veto power that they had to protect each other in breaches of democracy has gone. Overall, Southam is right that it's a good result for the EU.

    In the end, I suspect that Congress will come through with their similar current negotiations. The situation is too serious to allow them to fail.
    I'll believe it when I see it. For the time being the EU fanatics on here should keep quiet about rigged elections in Poland. The EU very much tolerates it.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    tlg86 said:

    Huge EU news overnight. A triumph for Merkel and, especially, Macron. From a Brexit perspective, the EU27 have once again shown they can work effectively together and compromise to reach a mutually beneficial outcome. But it will also mean they will be under less pressure to reach a deal that does not fit their overall objectives. Once again, those in the UK predicting the EU’s fragmentation and failure have been proved wrong. I guess we’ll never understand what drives it and just how strong the will is for it to succeed.

    At what price?

    The final outcome is a messy bundle of compromises. As part of the deal, the “frugals” will receive significant increases in the rebates they receive on their budget contributions, a throwback from 1984 when Margaret Thatcher secured discounts on the UK’s out-sized budget contributions.

    And...

    On the rule of law, France, Germany and other countries had wanted a link to EU funds but Hungary and Poland’s governments, who have been previously accused of undermining judicial independence and minority rights, rejected this plan.

    The compromise agreed by the leaders instead puts off designing a rule of law mechanism for another day with agreement to be made by a qualified majority of member states.

    The final deal on Monday also swung in Poland’s favour by watering down a demand to link green transition funds to signing up to the 2050 climate target to the consternation of activist groups and senior MEPs.

    Poland, which stands to gain €37bn in grants from the fund, plus potentially billions more from a “just transition fund” to move away from coal, is the only EU member state not to have made the 2050 pledge.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/20/macron-seeks-end-acrimony-eu-summit-enters-fourth-day
    It's a compromise, as EU decisions always are. But the phrase "agreement to be made by a qualified majority of member states" is a ticking bomb as far as Hungary and Poland are concerned - the veto power that they had to protect each other in breaches of democracy has gone. Overall, Southam is right that it's a good result for the EU.

    In the end, I suspect that Congress will come through with their similar current negotiations. The situation is too serious to allow them to fail.
    Yep, that qualified majority provision is a surprise. Although it will disappoint many in the UK who wish the EU ill, the deal is good for us too, of course, as it will at least partially mitigate the economic effects of covid-19 in our biggest export market.

  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,335
    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    I have to agree. Without the hype, the news is that it has passed phase 1 trials which means only that it doesn't immediately kill people stone dead. The overtones of "all over by Christmas" seem to be lost on the headline writers.

    "Die-effects" = side-effects presumably, though it comes to the same thing.
    Perhaps so, but data from human trials was published for four different vaccines yesterday, and all showed the production of neutralising antibodies and T cells.

    It’s not going to be over by Christmas, but the strong prospect of effective vaccines is there. In the meantime, the widespread use of masks would ensure the least disruption to our lives.
    That sounds about right. Phase 1 trials are no big deal - pharma is littered with drugs that passed that stage and never made it to market because they didn't work or produced significant side-effects later. But the parallel progress is impressive, and the chance that there will be improved treatment by, say, early next year and a vaccine that works for many people by the end of 2021 looks quite promising.

    Caution and masks remain essential for the time being, as you say.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited July 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    That number seems rather lower than expected. £42bn/month.
    The danger is that a lot of the tax revenues are lagging, so government income held up more than expected through Q1, but will drop off a cliff over the next year.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    rcs1000 said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    Even if the vaccine isn't for you, the spread of the virus can be meaningfully slowed by making sure that (young) front line workers get it.
    I think there's some suggestion that the vaccine may improve your response to the virus so that you don't die or perhaps even get seriously ill, but that it wouldn't stop you spreading it on. The macaque study of Oxford vaccine found they still had high levels of virus replicating in their airways.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    That number seems rather lower than expected. £42bn/month.
    The danger is that a lot of the tax revenues are lagging, so government income held up more than expected through Q1, but will drop off a Cliff over the next year.
    The January figures will be, err, interesting.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    rcs1000 said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    Even if the vaccine isn't for you, the spread of the virus can be meaningfully slowed by making sure that (young) front line workers get it.
    These headlines are a bit of a mixed blessing for businesses I would think. Because on the one hand, if justified and not hype, they hold out the prospect that the end is in sight. But on the other hand they give a message to those who they need to emerge from their hibernation to start spending that all they need to do is hold out for a few months more. As opposed the more arguably more useful message of “you can’t keep yourself locked up for ever”. Shades of people being killed on war zone frontlines days before peace is secured.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    I have to agree. Without the hype, the news is that it has passed phase 1 trials which means only that it doesn't immediately kill people stone dead. The overtones of "all over by Christmas" seem to be lost on the headline writers.

    "Die-effects" = side-effects presumably, though it comes to the same thing.
    Perhaps so, but data from human trials was published for four different vaccines yesterday, and all showed the production of neutralising antibodies and T cells.

    It’s not going to be over by Christmas, but the strong prospect of effective vaccines is there. In the meantime, the widespread use of masks would ensure the least disruption to our lives.
    That sounds about right. Phase 1 trials are no big deal - pharma is littered with drugs that passed that stage and never made it to market because they didn't work or produced significant side-effects later. But the parallel progress is impressive, and the chance that there will be improved treatment by, say, early next year and a vaccine that works for many people by the end of 2021 looks quite promising.

    Caution and masks remain essential for the time being, as you say.
    If the BBC is right there are three vaccines in phase 3 trials now.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    I have to agree. Without the hype, the news is that it has passed phase 1 trials which means only that it doesn't immediately kill people stone dead. The overtones of "all over by Christmas" seem to be lost on the headline writers.

    "Die-effects" = side-effects presumably, though it comes to the same thing.
    Perhaps so, but data from human trials was published for four different vaccines yesterday, and all showed the production of neutralising antibodies and T cells.

    It’s not going to be over by Christmas, but the strong prospect of effective vaccines is there. In the meantime, the widespread use of masks would ensure the least disruption to our lives.
    That sounds about right. Phase 1 trials are no big deal - pharma is littered with drugs that passed that stage and never made it to market because they didn't work or produced significant side-effects later. But the parallel progress is impressive, and the chance that there will be improved treatment by, say, early next year and a vaccine that works for many people by the end of 2021 looks quite promising.

    Caution and masks remain essential for the time being, as you say.
    In many ways the inhaled interferon announcement sounds even more important. There is real progress in therapeutics too.

    A vaccine is essential though before hospitals and primary care can function normally again. The slow productivity from PPE and social distancing has more than halved productivity.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Can some please confirm if I'm barking up the wrong tree here . . .

    But if the Government "borrowed" £130 billion ($165 billion) by June.
    And if the Bank of England have done £310 billion of Quantitative Easing by June: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/quantitative-easing


    Then doesn't that mean we are in net LESS real debt than we were before this hit?
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,817
    coach said:

    There's every chance a vaccine will create as many problems as it solves, unless its compulsory for everybody (which is impossible to monitor) its largely irrelevant.

    Like every other virus ever this just has to run its course as it already is. I appreciate that gets the scaredy cats in a tizz but its reality.

    Just like smallpox
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,979
    Sandpit said:

    Having just read through last night’s thread can I add “free movement” to the “accurate but misleading” column?

    Yes. FoM means something very specific in the context of the EU, namely the right to live and work - in the U.K. this means the right to an NI number, state benefits and NHS treatment - nothing at all to do with rights of entry at border crossings.
    The state benefits and automatic right to NHS treatment is the reason we have Brexit, if Blair and Brown had sorted that out as they invited Eastern Europe here we wouldn't have this mess.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    Scott_xP said:
    Can some please confirm if I'm barking up the wrong tree here . . .

    But if the Government "borrowed" £130 billion ($165 billion) by June.
    And if the Bank of England have done £310 billion of Quantitative Easing by June: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/quantitative-easing


    Then doesn't that mean we are in net LESS real debt than we were before this hit?
    Not if the £130 billion is on top of the quantitative easing...
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    That number seems rather lower than expected. £42bn/month.
    The danger is that a lot of the tax revenues are lagging, so government income held up more than expected through Q1, but will drop off a Cliff over the next year.
    The January figures will be, err, interesting.
    The January figures will be, err, terrifying.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,740

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    I have to agree. Without the hype, the news is that it has passed phase 1 trials which means only that it doesn't immediately kill people stone dead. The overtones of "all over by Christmas" seem to be lost on the headline writers.

    "Die-effects" = side-effects presumably, though it comes to the same thing.
    Perhaps so, but data from human trials was published for four different vaccines yesterday, and all showed the production of neutralising antibodies and T cells.

    It’s not going to be over by Christmas, but the strong prospect of effective vaccines is there. In the meantime, the widespread use of masks would ensure the least disruption to our lives.
    That sounds about right. Phase 1 trials are no big deal - pharma is littered with drugs that passed that stage and never made it to market because they didn't work or produced significant side-effects later. But the parallel progress is impressive, and the chance that there will be improved treatment by, say, early next year and a vaccine that works for many people by the end of 2021 looks quite promising.

    Caution and masks remain essential for the time being, as you say.
    If the BBC is right there are three vaccines in phase 3 trials now.
    NYT has 4

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.html
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,110

    Scott_xP said:
    Can some please confirm if I'm barking up the wrong tree here . . .

    But if the Government "borrowed" £130 billion ($165 billion) by June.
    And if the Bank of England have done £310 billion of Quantitative Easing by June: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/quantitative-easing


    Then doesn't that mean we are in net LESS real debt than we were before this hit?
    The £310bn is the total that was announced in June, it won't be completed until year-end, and it includes £10-20bn of corporate bonds do gilt purchases will be a bit under £300bn. Total borrowing in FY20-21 will likely be close to £400bn so it's likely that net issuance net of BOE purchases will still be positive - although the BOE may buy more in Q1 2021 (the last quarter of the fiscal year). However, for the year to date the BOE purchases have been greater than net isduance, as they were front-loaded with aggressive buying at the start.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Having just read through last night’s thread can I add “free movement” to the “accurate but misleading” column?

    Yes. FoM means something very specific in the context of the EU, namely the right to live and work - in the U.K. this means the right to an NI number, state benefits and NHS treatment - nothing at all to do with rights of entry at border crossings.
    The state benefits and automatic right to NHS treatment is the reason we have Brexit, if Blair and Brown had sorted that out as they invited Eastern Europe here we wouldn't have this mess.
    I think I’m right in saying that most European countries require a period of contributions before you become entitled to their benefits. We could have done the same, but under the rules of the EU only if we applied it to everybody, not just nationals of other EU countries. That would have been politically difficult to say the least.
    I’m certain I’m missing some crucial details here, so any corrections are welcome.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Scott_xP said:
    Can some please confirm if I'm barking up the wrong tree here . . .

    But if the Government "borrowed" £130 billion ($165 billion) by June.
    And if the Bank of England have done £310 billion of Quantitative Easing by June: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/quantitative-easing


    Then doesn't that mean we are in net LESS real debt than we were before this hit?
    Not if the £130 billion is on top of the quantitative easing...
    I don't believe it is.

    The Quantitatively Eased debt is still accounted for as debt within the national figures and still counted as borrowing. Hence referring to "real" debt that the media very, very rarely does.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Scott_xP said:
    Can some please confirm if I'm barking up the wrong tree here . . .

    But if the Government "borrowed" £130 billion ($165 billion) by June.
    And if the Bank of England have done £310 billion of Quantitative Easing by June: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/quantitative-easing


    Then doesn't that mean we are in net LESS real debt than we were before this hit?
    The £310bn is the total that was announced in June, it won't be completed until year-end, and it includes £10-20bn of corporate bonds do gilt purchases will be a bit under £300bn. Total borrowing in FY20-21 will likely be close to £400bn so it's likely that net issuance net of BOE purchases will still be positive - although the BOE may buy more in Q1 2021 (the last quarter of the fiscal year). However, for the year to date the BOE purchases have been greater than net isduance, as they were front-loaded with aggressive buying at the start.
    Thanks. So net there might be some real borrowing by the government but a tiny fraction of what is being touted in these headlines.

    What a shame that no journalists seem to be economically literate or wanting to give the full picture rather than just spout off massive numbers.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    City not playing along with government’s wish to get everyone working from offices again:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/07/20/rbs-tells-50000-workers-not-return-office-2021/
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    I have to agree. Without the hype, the news is that it has passed phase 1 trials which means only that it doesn't immediately kill people stone dead. The overtones of "all over by Christmas" seem to be lost on the headline writers.

    "Die-effects" = side-effects presumably, though it comes to the same thing.
    Perhaps so, but data from human trials was published for four different vaccines yesterday, and all showed the production of neutralising antibodies and T cells.

    It’s not going to be over by Christmas, but the strong prospect of effective vaccines is there. In the meantime, the widespread use of masks would ensure the least disruption to our lives.
    That sounds about right. Phase 1 trials are no big deal - pharma is littered with drugs that passed that stage and never made it to market because they didn't work or produced significant side-effects later. But the parallel progress is impressive, and the chance that there will be improved treatment by, say, early next year and a vaccine that works for many people by the end of 2021 looks quite promising.

    Caution and masks remain essential for the time being, as you say.
    If the BBC is right there are three vaccines in phase 3 trials now.
    NYT has 4

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.html
    One of those is BCG, the TB vaccine! I assume they skipped the safety trials and went straight for phase 3.

    If it does work then I should be fine given the amount of BCG I’ve had put into me over the last few years.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597
    coach said:

    There's every chance a vaccine will create as many problems as it solves, unless its compulsory for everybody (which is impossible to monitor) its largely irrelevant.

    Like every other virus ever this just has to run its course as it already is. I appreciate that gets the scaredy cats in a tizz but its reality.

    Like every other virus....
    ... smallpox, polio....
    Sure.
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    I have to agree. Without the hype, the news is that it has passed phase 1 trials which means only that it doesn't immediately kill people stone dead. The overtones of "all over by Christmas" seem to be lost on the headline writers.

    "Die-effects" = side-effects presumably, though it comes to the same thing.
    Perhaps so, but data from human trials was published for four different vaccines yesterday, and all showed the production of neutralising antibodies and T cells.

    It’s not going to be over by Christmas, but the strong prospect of effective vaccines is there. In the meantime, the widespread use of masks would ensure the least disruption to our lives.
    That sounds about right. Phase 1 trials are no big deal - pharma is littered with drugs that passed that stage and never made it to market because they didn't work or produced significant side-effects later. But the parallel progress is impressive, and the chance that there will be improved treatment by, say, early next year and a vaccine that works for many people by the end of 2021 looks quite promising.

    Caution and masks remain essential for the time being, as you say.
    In many ways the inhaled interferon announcement sounds even more important. There is real progress in therapeutics too.

    A vaccine is essential though before hospitals and primary care can function normally again. The slow productivity from PPE and social distancing has more than halved productivity.
    It was explained to me that the oxford trial indicates a similar immune response to injections of plasma from recovered patients, which is seen as slightly disappointing. It’s not a silver bullet. But who cares. We just need to get the mortality and hospitalisation rates sufficiently low that we can all get back to our lives.

    At some point in the minds of the media and much of the public, the purpose of lockdown and social distancing has morphed from “flatten the curve” to “eliminate all risk”. With community infection rates as low as they are, the cure risks being worse than ailment. Roll out this vaccine, declare Mission Accomplished, stop with the daily doom stats and lets all crack on with our lives.

    A certain number of annual deaths from infectious disease is a regrettable but unavoidable part of life. I don’t much care if the culprit calls itself Influenza or SARS Cov 2 or Big Barry, so long as the health impact is kept in balance with social and economic factors.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,740
    edited July 2020

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    I have to agree. Without the hype, the news is that it has passed phase 1 trials which means only that it doesn't immediately kill people stone dead. The overtones of "all over by Christmas" seem to be lost on the headline writers.

    "Die-effects" = side-effects presumably, though it comes to the same thing.
    Perhaps so, but data from human trials was published for four different vaccines yesterday, and all showed the production of neutralising antibodies and T cells.

    It’s not going to be over by Christmas, but the strong prospect of effective vaccines is there. In the meantime, the widespread use of masks would ensure the least disruption to our lives.
    That sounds about right. Phase 1 trials are no big deal - pharma is littered with drugs that passed that stage and never made it to market because they didn't work or produced significant side-effects later. But the parallel progress is impressive, and the chance that there will be improved treatment by, say, early next year and a vaccine that works for many people by the end of 2021 looks quite promising.

    Caution and masks remain essential for the time being, as you say.
    If the BBC is right there are three vaccines in phase 3 trials now.
    NYT has 4

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.html
    One of those is BCG, the TB vaccine! I assume they skipped the safety trials and went straight for phase 3.

    If it does work then I should be fine given the amount of BCG I’ve had put into me over the last few years.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/health/coronavirus-bcg-vaccine.html

    From reading that sounds like it may have some benefits against covid (and known risks) but would be likely to be less effective than specifically targeted vaccines.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Having just read through last night’s thread can I add “free movement” to the “accurate but misleading” column?

    Yes. FoM means something very specific in the context of the EU, namely the right to live and work - in the U.K. this means the right to an NI number, state benefits and NHS treatment - nothing at all to do with rights of entry at border crossings.
    The state benefits and automatic right to NHS treatment is the reason we have Brexit, if Blair and Brown had sorted that out as they invited Eastern Europe here we wouldn't have this mess.
    Yes, the eastward expansion of the EU was badly handled by the U.K. It should have been blindingly obvious that, when UK minimum wage was higher than the average annual income of 200m people, there would be a lot of immigration.

    The lack of the transition period seen in other EU countries focussed all that immigration at the U.K rather than spreading it across the western EU, also helped by the universality of the English language.

    A non-contributory benefits system, including in-work benefits, was the icing on the cake.
    The lack of transition wasn't as big a factor as is often touted. As proof of that look at how much Romanian migration to the UK there has been.

    Pre-Eastward expansion the two biggest foreign nationalities in the UK were I believe Indian and Irish. Now the two biggest are Polish and Romanian and that was with the maximum possible transition controls imposed on Romanian migration . . . all imposing controls meant was that the migration was delayed for a few years not that it didn't happen.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,979

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Having just read through last night’s thread can I add “free movement” to the “accurate but misleading” column?

    Yes. FoM means something very specific in the context of the EU, namely the right to live and work - in the U.K. this means the right to an NI number, state benefits and NHS treatment - nothing at all to do with rights of entry at border crossings.
    The state benefits and automatic right to NHS treatment is the reason we have Brexit, if Blair and Brown had sorted that out as they invited Eastern Europe here we wouldn't have this mess.
    I think I’m right in saying that most European countries require a period of contributions before you become entitled to their benefits. We could have done the same, but under the rules of the EU only if we applied it to everybody, not just nationals of other EU countries. That would have been politically difficult to say the least.
    I’m certain I’m missing some crucial details here, so any corrections are welcome.
    It actually wasn't difficult to do as for UK citizens you could have grandfathered everyone in and then made continuing in education from 16-18 part of the qualification process. Heck that would have solved the NEET issue by providing a clear incentive to stay in education...
  • Options
    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    Even if the vaccine isn't for you, the spread of the virus can be meaningfully slowed by making sure that (young) front line workers get it.
    I think there's some suggestion that the vaccine may improve your response to the virus so that you don't die or perhaps even get seriously ill, but that it wouldn't stop you spreading it on. The macaque study of Oxford vaccine found they still had high levels of virus replicating in their airways.
    Team Oxford-AstraZeneca argues it’s not realistic to expect clear nasal swabs from monkeys after they got a whopping dose straight up their noses. “It doesn’t need to cure you of SARS-CoV-2,” AstraZeneca’s Pangalos says. “I don’t know if we will completely knock out shedding or people being infectious, whether we’re going to cure people completely or whether we will just dampen down the illness. We want a vaccine to stop people from going to hospital and dying. If you can do that, I think people will be pretty happy."

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-15/oxford-s-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-coronavirus-front-runner
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2020
    Sandpit said:

    City not playing along with government’s wish to get everyone working from offices again:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/07/20/rbs-tells-50000-workers-not-return-office-2021/

    Does the government wish to get everyone working from offices again? This seems to be the wish of some backbenchers and some in the media but the government and the PM seem to be clear their only priority is getting people back to work safely not getting back to offices. If back to work means working from home so be it.

    And why shouldn't that be the case. Some businesses will never return to their offices and that could improve efficiency . . . great!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597
    coach said:

    coach said:

    There's every chance a vaccine will create as many problems as it solves, unless its compulsory for everybody (which is impossible to monitor) its largely irrelevant.

    Like every other virus ever this just has to run its course as it already is. I appreciate that gets the scaredy cats in a tizz but its reality.

    I don't think that as an elderly man who is mildly asthmatic I could fairly be described as a 'scaredy-cat'. I'm very worried by the prospect of the virus.

    However, as one who, at a local level was involved with school vaccination campaigns..... meningitis etc ....... I do wonder about the way a mass vaccination campaign will be conducted, if Hancock gets anywhere near it!
    Its nothing to do with Hancock, who is useless. Lots of people will refuse the vaccine, others just won't bother.

    My point is that the vaccine itself will not be the solution
    I believe polling already suggests around 85% would get vaccinated. I suspect it would be higher than that for a proven effective vaccine, once people realised that meant a return to normal life without restrictions.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Sandpit said:

    City not playing along with government’s wish to get everyone working from offices again:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/07/20/rbs-tells-50000-workers-not-return-office-2021/

    Businesses will do what is best for them and their shareholders. Even this government must understand that.

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990

    Sandpit said:

    City not playing along with government’s wish to get everyone working from offices again:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/07/20/rbs-tells-50000-workers-not-return-office-2021/

    Does the government wish to get everyone working from offices again? This seems to be the wish of some backbenchers and some in the media but the government and the PM seem to be clear their only priority is getting people back to work safely not getting back to offices. If back to work means working from home so be it.

    And why shouldn't that be the case. Some businesses will never return to their offices and that could improve efficiency . . . great!
    Agree; many people have had a new experience and I suggest that, given the other currently necessary, restrictions, the change is going to have been for long enough that people don't just go back to 'what is was like before'.
    n=1 etc, but I'm sure my neighbour won't go back to a daily commute, when he's been working from home apparently just as efficiently and seeing his family at lunchtime.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Sandpit said:

    City not playing along with government’s wish to get everyone working from offices again:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/07/20/rbs-tells-50000-workers-not-return-office-2021/

    Does the government wish to get everyone working from offices again? This seems to be the wish of some backbenchers and some in the media but the government and the PM seem to be clear their only priority is getting people back to work safely not getting back to offices. If back to work means working from home so be it.

    And why shouldn't that be the case. Some businesses will never return to their offices and that could improve efficiency . . . great!
    They were making plenty of noise last week about reviving the economy in London by getting everyone back to offices.

    I agree that there’s no way commuting is coming back on the scale it was before - businesses have realised that remote working technology is now good enough to allow teams to meet in person for a few days a month and work remotely the rest of the time.

    What that does mean, is there’s going to be several years’ worth of change happen very quickly, which is going to be bad news for London’s sandwich shops but good news for local high streets. And great news for the environment, a point that very few people seem to be making.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,740

    Sandpit said:

    City not playing along with government’s wish to get everyone working from offices again:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/07/20/rbs-tells-50000-workers-not-return-office-2021/

    Does the government wish to get everyone working from offices again? This seems to be the wish of some backbenchers and some in the media but the government and the PM seem to be clear their only priority is getting people back to work safely not getting back to offices. If back to work means working from home so be it.

    And why shouldn't that be the case. Some businesses will never return to their offices and that could improve efficiency . . . great!
    PM clear? Did Boris resign overnight?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597
    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I fear the news about the vaccine has been over-hyped. Even if it is genuinely good news, it's surely unlikely that it will be available by Christmas, and it's by no means unusual for die-effects to become evident after widespread use.
    Sorry to be such a dismal Jimmy, but experience of medicines over 40+ years leads one to be cautious.

    Even if the vaccine isn't for you, the spread of the virus can be meaningfully slowed by making sure that (young) front line workers get it.
    I think there's some suggestion that the vaccine may improve your response to the virus so that you don't die or perhaps even get seriously ill, but that it wouldn't stop you spreading it on. The macaque study of Oxford vaccine found they still had high levels of virus replicating in their airways.
    No, that last bit is not clear at all.
    That study involved massive challenge doses of the virus, far higher than you’d get without a mask in a Covid ward. That they still detected virus in swabs isn’t entirely surprising, and I don’t think showed for sure any extent of continued replication.
    It’s just as possible that the Oxford vaccine proves protective - only the PIII trials will determine that one way or the other - and in any event there are several other vaccines in human trials.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Sandpit said:

    City not playing along with government’s wish to get everyone working from offices again:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/07/20/rbs-tells-50000-workers-not-return-office-2021/

    Businesses will do what is best for them and their shareholders. Even this government must understand that.
    Quite. Even banks with, one might assume, significant liabilities on commercial real estate.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    Morning all,

    Have we discussed the change in planning law the government is proposing. Two storey extensions can be built with almost no need for any planning input from council? "prior approval service" will be the assumption.

    I'm pretty sure where I am this will be a buy-to-let bonanza as professional landlords snap up property and immediately bolt on 2 stories going way out the back to allow for a HMO to be set up.


  • Options
    pm215pm215 Posts: 936
    Scott_xP said:
    Better still, swab everybody as they enter the *departure* airport, and avoid one person infecting others on the plane over who then in the first few hours of their infection would likely show up as negative on a swab at the destination...
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:

    coach said:

    coach said:

    There's every chance a vaccine will create as many problems as it solves, unless its compulsory for everybody (which is impossible to monitor) its largely irrelevant.

    Like every other virus ever this just has to run its course as it already is. I appreciate that gets the scaredy cats in a tizz but its reality.

    I don't think that as an elderly man who is mildly asthmatic I could fairly be described as a 'scaredy-cat'. I'm very worried by the prospect of the virus.

    However, as one who, at a local level was involved with school vaccination campaigns..... meningitis etc ....... I do wonder about the way a mass vaccination campaign will be conducted, if Hancock gets anywhere near it!
    Its nothing to do with Hancock, who is useless. Lots of people will refuse the vaccine, others just won't bother.

    My point is that the vaccine itself will not be the solution
    I believe polling already suggests around 85% would get vaccinated. I suspect it would be higher than that for a proven effective vaccine, once people realised that meant a return to normal life without restrictions.
    85% is more than enough for herd immunity anyway.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,979

    Morning all,

    Have we discussed the change in planning law the government is proposing. Two storey extensions can be built with almost no need for any planning input from council? "prior approval service" will be the assumption.

    I'm pretty sure where I am this will be a buy-to-let bonanza as professional landlords snap up property and immediately bolt on 2 stories going way out the back to allow for a HMO to be set up.


    They might but I suspect they will lose a lot of money - the demand for a small room close to work is going to disappear when you work from home and so spend most of the day in the same place..
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    City not playing along with government’s wish to get everyone working from offices again:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/07/20/rbs-tells-50000-workers-not-return-office-2021/

    Does the government wish to get everyone working from offices again? This seems to be the wish of some backbenchers and some in the media but the government and the PM seem to be clear their only priority is getting people back to work safely not getting back to offices. If back to work means working from home so be it.

    And why shouldn't that be the case. Some businesses will never return to their offices and that could improve efficiency . . . great!
    They were making plenty of noise last week about reviving the economy in London by getting everyone back to offices.

    I agree that there’s no way commuting is coming back on the scale it was before - businesses have realised that remote working technology is now good enough to allow teams to meet in person for a few days a month and work remotely the rest of the time.

    What that does mean, is there’s going to be several years’ worth of change happen very quickly, which is going to be bad news for London’s sandwich shops but good news for local high streets. And great news for the environment, a point that very few people seem to be making.
    The London obsessed media were making noises about that but the PM was quite clear in his speech that he did not want to tell businesses how to run their business and it was for businesses to determine in consultation with their employees how to get back to work safely . . . and that might include continuing to work from home.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    eek said:

    Morning all,

    Have we discussed the change in planning law the government is proposing. Two storey extensions can be built with almost no need for any planning input from council? "prior approval service" will be the assumption.

    I'm pretty sure where I am this will be a buy-to-let bonanza as professional landlords snap up property and immediately bolt on 2 stories going way out the back to allow for a HMO to be set up.


    They might but I suspect they will lose a lot of money - the demand for a small room close to work is going to disappear when you work from home and so spend most of the day in the same place..
    What it might do is allow a lot of people to build home offices as separate rooms rather than using a spare bedroom...
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    Morning all,

    Have we discussed the change in planning law the government is proposing. Two storey extensions can be built with almost no need for any planning input from council? "prior approval service" will be the assumption.

    I'm pretty sure where I am this will be a buy-to-let bonanza as professional landlords snap up property and immediately bolt on 2 stories going way out the back to allow for a HMO to be set up.


    They might but I suspect they will lose a lot of money - the demand for a small room close to work is going to disappear when you work from home and so spend most of the day in the same place..
    While if you're spending much more time at home by working from home etc the opportunity to add more space to your home could be greatly appreciated.

    Especially if that can be paid for by money you're no long spending commuting. Don't know about others but I'd rather spend money improving my home than commuting!
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216

    Scott_xP said:
    Can some please confirm if I'm barking up the wrong tree here . . .

    But if the Government "borrowed" £130 billion ($165 billion) by June.
    And if the Bank of England have done £310 billion of Quantitative Easing by June: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/quantitative-easing


    Then doesn't that mean we are in net LESS real debt than we were before this hit?
    Not if the £130 billion is on top of the quantitative easing...
    I don't believe it is.

    The Quantitatively Eased debt is still accounted for as debt within the national figures and still counted as borrowing. Hence referring to "real" debt that the media very, very rarely does.
    As I understand the Bank of England buys the government's debts (via buying gilts in the open market). The UK Government still has debt. The Bank has the gilts. The Bank is not the UK Government.

    What they do with the gilts in the medium term is anyone's guess.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1285480046233358336

    Only so Cummings knows who to sack later.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,110

    Scott_xP said:
    Can some please confirm if I'm barking up the wrong tree here . . .

    But if the Government "borrowed" £130 billion ($165 billion) by June.
    And if the Bank of England have done £310 billion of Quantitative Easing by June: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/quantitative-easing


    Then doesn't that mean we are in net LESS real debt than we were before this hit?
    The £310bn is the total that was announced in June, it won't be completed until year-end, and it includes £10-20bn of corporate bonds do gilt purchases will be a bit under £300bn. Total borrowing in FY20-21 will likely be close to £400bn so it's likely that net issuance net of BOE purchases will still be positive - although the BOE may buy more in Q1 2021 (the last quarter of the fiscal year). However, for the year to date the BOE purchases have been greater than net isduance, as they were front-loaded with aggressive buying at the start.
    Thanks. So net there might be some real borrowing by the government but a tiny fraction of what is being touted in these headlines.

    What a shame that no journalists seem to be economically literate or wanting to give the full picture rather than just spout off massive numbers.
    Yes the standards of economic journalism in this country are pretty bad, journalism in general in fact. And then we let these ignorant hacks run the country (Johnson and Gove) and wonder why everything goes to shit. Basically, most of what is written about the economy outside of the FT and BBC is rubbish.
    The BOE covering most or all of net issuance is a repeat of 2009. If they do the same again, the big build up of debt net of BOE purchases will happen in subsequent years. Government borrowing will almost certainly stay elevated for several years from here.
This discussion has been closed.