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  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    This is for LadyG & Charles -

    SONGS OF THE NON-BATTLE GROUND STATES - California

    ARE YOU GOING TO SAN FRANCISCO?
    John Edmund Andrew Phillips

    If you're going to San Francisco
    Be sure to wear some flowers in your hair
    If you're going to San Francisco
    You're gonna meet some gentle people there

    For those who come to San Francisco
    Summertime will be a love-in there
    In the streets of San Francisco
    Gentle people with flowers in their hair

    All across the nation
    Such a strange vibration
    People in motion

    There's a whole generation
    With a new explanation
    People in motion

    For those who come to San Francisco
    Be sure to wear some flowers in your hair
    If you come to San Francisco
    Summertime will be a love-in there
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:


    That delivery was lacking makes Blair's government even more culpable given the favourable circumstances it operated in.

    I don't think anyone can claim that the period 1997-2007 was harder than from 2008 onwards.

    The problem was Blair believed Labour had to be cautious to persuade disillusioned Conservatives the Party he led was a non-socialist party of the centre or centre-left. He spent the whole of the 1997 campaign desperately trying to convince anyone and everyone how little things would change not how much.

    The central message was the basic tenets of Thatcherism were safe with him and his Government. Yes, they could and would be run better with a bit more "humanity" and without the sleaze which by then was a stench over Major and the Conservatives of whom people were tired after 18 years.

    By 2001, I suspect the mood had changed and whether it was because of the 59% turnout or not, Blair was just not prepared to be radical with his landslide as were Asquith, Attlee and Thatcher.

    In truth, he didn't really have a radical agenda as the others did and he ended up being defined by events initially outside his control.
    Scared of their own shadow despite a 179 seat majority. Such was the power of the Establishment.
    They could have done anything between 1997 and 2005 with those massive majorities. Top of the list: they should have introduced proportional representation in my opinion.
    After those thumping victories under FPTP? It'd take a lot more stubborn principal than most possess to change the voting system after that.
    And haven’t they paid for their hubris and lack of foresight?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Tonight's Top of the Pops' are from 14th and 21st December 1989 on BBC4 at 8pm.

    I'm in. It's a missing year for me. I was in Australia.
    I was living in NZ. Christmas with family in Auckland. I don’t think that I missed too much at the fag end of the Eighties in the UK.
    The end of the 80s was a brilliant time in the UK, certainly in London

    The long Lawson boom, Thatcherite deregulation, the Big Bang in the City, London's population growing for the first time since 1939. It was when everything began to turn around. Also, it was the era of Really Good Ecstasy, and the second summer of love.

    London in about 1986-89 was a brilliant, throbbing city on the rise.

    And, of course, in 1989 The Stones Roses put out The Stone Roses
    I don't agree with all of it, but Andrew Marr's documentary on the Thatcher era does a good job of capturing the renewed sense of optimism.

    https://vimeo.com/205881931
    There really was an atmosphere of positivity. A sense, fuckyeah, we're on the way back.

    Noticeably, Loadsamoney became a massively popular (and occasionally amusing) comedy character, in the late 80s: because he captured a truth.
    Suddenly, working class people (in London and the south) felt quite a lot richer.

    His creators meant him to be a villain, but he became a kind of passing folk hero

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgUYUOGvVZM
    In London and the South. Glad you said that. But should not be in brackets.
    There were plenty of working class people all over the country in the 1980s who became, not just felt, a lot richer.

    It seems that you still don't understand the results of the 1987 and 1992 general elections.
    There were plenty thrown on the scrapheap too. People voting for Thatcher gave no fucks about that because they were selfish arseholes. Unfortunately they were in the majority. See, I understand perfectly. ☺
    Except they weren't in a majority. Thanks to the joys of our electoral system Thatch got big majorities with less than half the vote. Partly thanks to a divided opposition. I'll hold my hand up - I voted SDP twice.
    That's a good point - and a truly terrible confession.
    The SDP soaked up a lot of centrist votes that would otherwise have gone to Thatcher.
    Yep. I was in the SDP at the time and even stood for them once in a local election. Had it been a straight choice between 1980’s Labour and Maggie she would have had another vote (for all the good that would have done her in Dundee West).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Tonight's Top of the Pops' are from 14th and 21st December 1989 on BBC4 at 8pm.

    I'm in. It's a missing year for me. I was in Australia.
    I was living in NZ. Christmas with family in Auckland. I don’t think that I missed too much at the fag end of the Eighties in the UK.
    Summer of Love. 1988. I missed that.
    It was a real thing

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Summer_of_Love


    The first raves were just bloody brilliant. Probably because the E was so good.

    Dancing to mad music with 5,000 other young people. with everyone blissed and smiling because of E, and in some illegal warehouse in King's Cross with wild lights and fireworks and everyone having sex in the loos. Oh God

    Ou sont les neiges d'antan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=648UkmmTG5w


    I'm probably in that vid
    I was in Australia.

    Nothing I can do now to change that.
    It's sad it was so short. By 1990 the E was way down in quality, dodgy dealers were moving in, the raves got edgier and nastier (previously they'd been incredibly peaceful), police clamped down, it all got rather sad rather quick, even the music palled.

    But it was great while it lasted.
    The original Summer of Love also soured quickly. Assassinations and riots and prog rock.
    Yes. A feature not a bug methinks. From Haight Ashbury to Altamont in a few short years
    Think that's right. A great "moment" in modern culture and music terms cannot last for more than a couple of years. And you're lucky if you get to be in the thick of even one of them. I haven't.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Tonight's Top of the Pops' are from 14th and 21st December 1989 on BBC4 at 8pm.

    I'm in. It's a missing year for me. I was in Australia.
    I was living in NZ. Christmas with family in Auckland. I don’t think that I missed too much at the fag end of the Eighties in the UK.
    Summer of Love. 1988. I missed that.
    It was a real thing

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Summer_of_Love


    The first raves were just bloody brilliant. Probably because the E was so good.

    Dancing to mad music with 5,000 other young people. with everyone blissed and smiling because of E, and in some illegal warehouse in King's Cross with wild lights and fireworks and everyone having sex in the loos. Oh God

    Ou sont les neiges d'antan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=648UkmmTG5w


    I'm probably in that vid
    Really doesn’t look that much fun, to be honest.
    lol. It was. But you had to be on E



  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited July 2020
    It would be interesting to do a PB poll on when it was best to be young in the UK, since the Second World War


    Musically, it's got to be the 60s or 70s. But few people in the 60s actually went to Festivals, and the economy soured. Likewise the 70s had Led Zep and then punk, but the country nearly went bust

    A better argument can be made, I reckon for

    The late 1980s: decent music, rising prosperity, house buying
    The mid- late 1990s: more prosperity, music not so good, a sense of peace, still house buying
    The noughties in general: shit music, but lots of jobs, rising education levels
    Not Now: no sex, Wokeness, anger, drill and Ed Sheeran
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:


    That delivery was lacking makes Blair's government even more culpable given the favourable circumstances it operated in.

    I don't think anyone can claim that the period 1997-2007 was harder than from 2008 onwards.

    The problem was Blair believed Labour had to be cautious to persuade disillusioned Conservatives the Party he led was a non-socialist party of the centre or centre-left. He spent the whole of the 1997 campaign desperately trying to convince anyone and everyone how little things would change not how much.

    The central message was the basic tenets of Thatcherism were safe with him and his Government. Yes, they could and would be run better with a bit more "humanity" and without the sleaze which by then was a stench over Major and the Conservatives of whom people were tired after 18 years.

    By 2001, I suspect the mood had changed and whether it was because of the 59% turnout or not, Blair was just not prepared to be radical with his landslide as were Asquith, Attlee and Thatcher.

    In truth, he didn't really have a radical agenda as the others did and he ended up being defined by events initially outside his control.
    Scared of their own shadow despite a 179 seat majority. Such was the power of the Establishment.
    They could have done anything between 1997 and 2005 with those massive majorities. Top of the list: they should have introduced proportional representation in my opinion.
    Blair would have never done anything without Murdoch's approval.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    Late to the thread, but I broadly agree with the argument that "Starmer will only win when he can integrate enough Blue Labour thinking to help retake the Red Wall and middle England." Or at least defuse the issues that caused Red Wall and middle England voters to abandon Labour, if not necessarily to embrace them.

    Here's a poll from back in January 2013, when Miliband had not yet come out against a referendum on EU membership. Labour was 13% ahead and Leave split 36% Con to 34% Lab. Fast forward to July 2020, Labour is still 10% behind with YouGov and Leave splits 76% Con to 12% Lab.

    LIkewise, in Jan 2013 the C2DE vote was 51% Lab to 24% Con. Now it's 35% Lab to 50% Con.

    In Jan 2013 the 60+ vote was 37% Con to 34% Lab. Now the 65+ vote is 66% Con to 21% Lab.

    Leave voters, C2DEs, pensioners - these are the groups which have swung most markedly against Labour ever since the UK's place in the EU started to become a major issue that determined voting intention.

    Which groups neatly explain why County Durham has some Tory Mps.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:


    That delivery was lacking makes Blair's government even more culpable given the favourable circumstances it operated in.

    I don't think anyone can claim that the period 1997-2007 was harder than from 2008 onwards.

    The problem was Blair believed Labour had to be cautious to persuade disillusioned Conservatives the Party he led was a non-socialist party of the centre or centre-left. He spent the whole of the 1997 campaign desperately trying to convince anyone and everyone how little things would change not how much.

    The central message was the basic tenets of Thatcherism were safe with him and his Government. Yes, they could and would be run better with a bit more "humanity" and without the sleaze which by then was a stench over Major and the Conservatives of whom people were tired after 18 years.

    By 2001, I suspect the mood had changed and whether it was because of the 59% turnout or not, Blair was just not prepared to be radical with his landslide as were Asquith, Attlee and Thatcher.

    In truth, he didn't really have a radical agenda as the others did and he ended up being defined by events initially outside his control.
    Scared of their own shadow despite a 179 seat majority. Such was the power of the Establishment.
    They could have done anything between 1997 and 2005 with those massive majorities. Top of the list: they should have introduced proportional representation in my opinion.
    After those thumping victories under FPTP? It'd take a lot more stubborn principal than most possess to change the voting system after that.
    And haven’t they paid for their hubris and lack of foresight?
    Most do, I don't see that changing.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Tonight's Top of the Pops' are from 14th and 21st December 1989 on BBC4 at 8pm.

    I'm in. It's a missing year for me. I was in Australia.
    I was living in NZ. Christmas with family in Auckland. I don’t think that I missed too much at the fag end of the Eighties in the UK.
    Summer of Love. 1988. I missed that.
    It was a real thing

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Summer_of_Love


    The first raves were just bloody brilliant. Probably because the E was so good.

    Dancing to mad music with 5,000 other young people. with everyone blissed and smiling because of E, and in some illegal warehouse in King's Cross with wild lights and fireworks and everyone having sex in the loos. Oh God

    Ou sont les neiges d'antan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=648UkmmTG5w


    I'm probably in that vid
    Really doesn’t look that much fun, to be honest.
    lol. It was. But you had to be on E



    No you didn't.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    I enjoyed a lot of (excellent) trance and dance music in the 1990s and 2000s without any need for illegal drugs.

    Sure. But they are just better with illegal drugs. Ecstasy enhances the enjoyment of wild pumping dance music, the way warm sunshine enhances a picnic
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    IanB2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    EPG said:

    Re place. Everyone loves telecommuting when we are in the transition phase still getting paid to do real commuting. Medium-term, if workers don't need a train ticket, wages will adjust downward. If not through renegotiation, then through sending work to Brasov instead of Bradford.

    Higher paid workers who already have their positions and their reputations and their contacts will love working from home.

    Lower paid workers who are younger and who don't have a second bedroom and might even be living in a flatshare and who are left out of meetings and no longer get any mentoring will hate it.

    A critical point - and not just because of the comfort and suitability of the home environment for working.

    Older workers who shift toward home working already know their jobs and their business, and have relationships with their contacts and colleagues.

    For younger workers, being in an office environment after school or university or an early job switch is a significant learning curve, during which you acquire all of the above. Being given a laptop and working from your bedsit or flat isn’t the same at all.
    However, if the new grad gets a WFH job they don't need to rent a room in a share house. They can live at home and be pampered by their mum.

    My nephew has moved back in with his parents for the duration. However he is still paying rent in London. Which is a bit of a bugger.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    I remember coming to London with my future wife about 1981-2. We went to see docklands ( she is very tolerant of my weird interests). Canary Tower was up and we got the elevator to the top. Around it nothing else of any size was completed but it was by far the biggest building site I have ever
    seen in my life. It was exhilarating. You had the impression of something new and incredibly different being born.
    We didn’t do any raves though.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Tonight's Top of the Pops' are from 14th and 21st December 1989 on BBC4 at 8pm.

    I'm in. It's a missing year for me. I was in Australia.
    I was living in NZ. Christmas with family in Auckland. I don’t think that I missed too much at the fag end of the Eighties in the UK.
    The end of the 80s was a brilliant time in the UK, certainly in London

    The long Lawson boom, Thatcherite deregulation, the Big Bang in the City, London's population growing for the first time since 1939. It was when everything began to turn around. Also, it was the era of Really Good Ecstasy, and the second summer of love.

    London in about 1986-89 was a brilliant, throbbing city on the rise.

    And, of course, in 1989 The Stones Roses put out The Stone Roses
    I don't agree with all of it, but Andrew Marr's documentary on the Thatcher era does a good job of capturing the renewed sense of optimism.

    https://vimeo.com/205881931
    There really was an atmosphere of positivity. A sense, fuckyeah, we're on the way back.

    Noticeably, Loadsamoney became a massively popular (and occasionally amusing) comedy character, in the late 80s: because he captured a truth. Suddenly, working class people (in London and the south) felt quite a lot richer.

    His creators meant him to be a villain, but he became a kind of passing folk hero

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgUYUOGvVZM
    In London and the South. Glad you said that. But should not be in brackets.
    There were plenty of working class people all over the country in the 1980s who became, not just felt, a lot richer.

    It seems that you still don't understand the results of the 1987 and 1992 general elections.
    There were plenty thrown on the scrapheap too. People voting for Thatcher gave no fucks about that because they were selfish arseholes. Unfortunately they were in the majority. See, I understand perfectly. ☺
    There's always been people thrown on the scrapheap and others who have been selfish arseholes.

    But the 1980s were good for most people and most places - that everywhere outside of Southern England was one big soup kitchen seems to be a recurring fantasy of middle class leftists.

    Ironically one group of places which did struggle in the 1980s were middle class inner urban areas which went significantly downhill with consequences to the Conservative vote in cities.
    And yet the blighted lives and lack of opportunity in the post industrial towns and regions of the North was so profound even 30 years later that it drove Brexit.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060

    I enjoyed a lot of (excellent) trance and dance music in the 1990s and 2000s without any need for illegal drugs.

    What about legal drugs?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    CatMan said:

    I enjoyed a lot of (excellent) trance and dance music in the 1990s and 2000s without any need for illegal drugs.

    What about legal drugs?
    Alcohol. :)
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    LadyG said:

    It would be interesting to do a PB poll on when it was best to be young in the UK, since the Second World War


    Musically, it's got to be the 60s or 70s. But few people in the 60s actually went to Festivals, and the economy soured. Likewise the 70s had Led Zep and then punk, but the country nearly went bust

    A better argument can be made, I reckon for

    The late 1980s: decent music, rising prosperity, house buying
    The mid- late 1990s: more prosperity, music not so good, a sense of peace, still house buying
    The noughties in general: shit music, but lots of jobs, rising education levels
    Not Now: no sex, Wokeness, anger, drill and Ed Sheeran

    BUT at least we've got Kanye West.

    Who BTW just paid $35k to get his name placed as candidate for President on the Oklahoma 2020 general election ballot.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:


    That delivery was lacking makes Blair's government even more culpable given the favourable circumstances it operated in.

    I don't think anyone can claim that the period 1997-2007 was harder than from 2008 onwards.

    The problem was Blair believed Labour had to be cautious to persuade disillusioned Conservatives the Party he led was a non-socialist party of the centre or centre-left. He spent the whole of the 1997 campaign desperately trying to convince anyone and everyone how little things would change not how much.

    The central message was the basic tenets of Thatcherism were safe with him and his Government. Yes, they could and would be run better with a bit more "humanity" and without the sleaze which by then was a stench over Major and the Conservatives of whom people were tired after 18 years.

    By 2001, I suspect the mood had changed and whether it was because of the 59% turnout or not, Blair was just not prepared to be radical with his landslide as were Asquith, Attlee and Thatcher.

    In truth, he didn't really have a radical agenda as the others did and he ended up being defined by events initially outside his control.
    Scared of their own shadow despite a 179 seat majority. Such was the power of the Establishment.
    They could have done anything between 1997 and 2005 with those massive majorities. Top of the list: they should have introduced proportional representation in my opinion.
    After those thumping victories under FPTP? It'd take a lot more stubborn principal than most possess to change the voting system after that.
    And haven’t they paid for their hubris and lack of foresight?
    Only their hubris of thinking they'd abolished boom and bust. That's the one piece of hubris that made Labour unelectable.

    Labour aren't losing elections because of the electoral system. Labour are losing elections because they don't deserve to win elections according to the electorate . . .address that and the rest will follow.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Tonight's Top of the Pops' are from 14th and 21st December 1989 on BBC4 at 8pm.

    I'm in. It's a missing year for me. I was in Australia.
    I was living in NZ. Christmas with family in Auckland. I don’t think that I missed too much at the fag end of the Eighties in the UK.
    The end of the 80s was a brilliant time in the UK, certainly in London

    The long Lawson boom, Thatcherite deregulation, the Big Bang in the City, London's population growing for the first time since 1939. It was when everything began to turn around. Also, it was the era of Really Good Ecstasy, and the second summer of love.

    London in about 1986-89 was a brilliant, throbbing city on the rise.

    And, of course, in 1989 The Stones Roses put out The Stone Roses
    I don't agree with all of it, but Andrew Marr's documentary on the Thatcher era does a good job of capturing the renewed sense of optimism.

    https://vimeo.com/205881931
    There really was an atmosphere of positivity. A sense, fuckyeah, we're on the way back.

    Noticeably, Loadsamoney became a massively popular (and occasionally amusing) comedy character, in the late 80s: because he captured a truth. Suddenly, working class people (in London and the south) felt quite a lot richer.

    His creators meant him to be a villain, but he became a kind of passing folk hero

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgUYUOGvVZM
    In London and the South. Glad you said that. But should not be in brackets.
    There were plenty of working class people all over the country in the 1980s who became, not just felt, a lot richer.

    It seems that you still don't understand the results of the 1987 and 1992 general elections.
    There were plenty thrown on the scrapheap too. People voting for Thatcher gave no fucks about that because they were selfish arseholes. Unfortunately they were in the majority. See, I understand perfectly. ☺
    There's always been people thrown on the scrapheap and others who have been selfish arseholes.

    But the 1980s were good for most people and most places - that everywhere outside of Southern England was one big soup kitchen seems to be a recurring fantasy of middle class leftists.

    Ironically one group of places which did struggle in the 1980s were middle class inner urban areas which went significantly downhill with consequences to the Conservative vote in cities.
    And yet the blighted lives and lack of opportunity in the post industrial towns and regions of the North was so profound even 30 years later that it drove Brexit.
    Deindustrialisation is hardly unique to the UK.

    The US has a rust belt, France and Belgium have their coal districts, Germany has East Germany.

    Any large, advanced industrialised nations will have a region in decline, because the industry left, for cheaper places with lower wages.

    Did Thatcher show unusual callousness? Maybe, but her reforms took the UK from being the sick man of Europe to, consistently, one of the fastest growing large economies
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Brotes de coronavirus en España
    Situación de brotes activos e inactivos notificados por las comunidades autónomas y otros focos detectados
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Late to the thread, but I broadly agree with the argument that "Starmer will only win when he can integrate enough Blue Labour thinking to help retake the Red Wall and middle England." Or at least defuse the issues that caused Red Wall and middle England voters to abandon Labour, if not necessarily to embrace them.

    Here's a poll from back in January 2013, when Miliband had not yet come out against a referendum on EU membership. Labour was 13% ahead and Leave split 36% Con to 34% Lab. Fast forward to July 2020, Labour is still 10% behind with YouGov and Leave splits 76% Con to 12% Lab.

    LIkewise, in Jan 2013 the C2DE vote was 51% Lab to 24% Con. Now it's 35% Lab to 50% Con.

    In Jan 2013 the 60+ vote was 37% Con to 34% Lab. Now the 65+ vote is 66% Con to 21% Lab.

    Leave voters, C2DEs, pensioners - these are the groups which have swung most markedly against Labour ever since the UK's place in the EU started to become a major issue that determined voting intention.

    Our main challenge is getting a decent chunk of the "closer to grave than cradle" vote. We're doing brilliant with the others. Better than ever. But the oldsters cannot abide us.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    NEW THRED
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    NEW THREAD (Sadly for me!)
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    DavidL said:

    I remember coming to London with my future wife about 1981-2. We went to see docklands ( she is very tolerant of my weird interests). Canary Tower was up and we got the elevator to the top. Around it nothing else of any size was completed but it was by far the biggest building site I have ever
    seen in my life. It was exhilarating. You had the impression of something new and incredibly different being born.
    We didn’t do any raves though.

    Early Docklands was something else.

    They made a city out of nothing, It was utter wasteland. Now:

    https://www.luxurylifestylemag.co.uk/travel/canary-wharf-what-to-do-eat-and-drink-and-where-to-stay-in-londons-bustling-business-district/

    it's like Singapore.

    This is why I pray that London survives the virus. Yes it gets too much money and too much attention. It is annoying. It's inhabitants vex and kvetch. Fuck bloody London.

    And yet, in my lifetime, amazing regeneration has been done here, and, more to the point, this has generated enormous sums of money for the whole country
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Tonight's Top of the Pops' are from 14th and 21st December 1989 on BBC4 at 8pm.

    I'm in. It's a missing year for me. I was in Australia.
    I was living in NZ. Christmas with family in Auckland. I don’t think that I missed too much at the fag end of the Eighties in the UK.
    The end of the 80s was a brilliant time in the UK, certainly in London

    The long Lawson boom, Thatcherite deregulation, the Big Bang in the City, London's population growing for the first time since 1939. It was when everything began to turn around. Also, it was the era of Really Good Ecstasy, and the second summer of love.

    London in about 1986-89 was a brilliant, throbbing city on the rise.

    And, of course, in 1989 The Stones Roses put out The Stone Roses
    I don't agree with all of it, but Andrew Marr's documentary on the Thatcher era does a good job of capturing the renewed sense of optimism.

    https://vimeo.com/205881931
    There really was an atmosphere of positivity. A sense, fuckyeah, we're on the way back.

    Noticeably, Loadsamoney became a massively popular (and occasionally amusing) comedy character, in the late 80s: because he captured a truth. Suddenly, working class people (in London and the south) felt quite a lot richer.

    His creators meant him to be a villain, but he became a kind of passing folk hero

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgUYUOGvVZM
    In London and the South. Glad you said that. But should not be in brackets.
    There were plenty of working class people all over the country in the 1980s who became, not just felt, a lot richer.

    It seems that you still don't understand the results of the 1987 and 1992 general elections.
    There were plenty thrown on the scrapheap too. People voting for Thatcher gave no fucks about that because they were selfish arseholes. Unfortunately they were in the majority. See, I understand perfectly. ☺
    There's always been people thrown on the scrapheap and others who have been selfish arseholes.

    But the 1980s were good for most people and most places - that everywhere outside of Southern England was one big soup kitchen seems to be a recurring fantasy of middle class leftists.

    Ironically one group of places which did struggle in the 1980s were middle class inner urban areas which went significantly downhill with consequences to the Conservative vote in cities.
    And yet the blighted lives and lack of opportunity in the post industrial towns and regions of the North was so profound even 30 years later that it drove Brexit.
    Its a bit simplistic and ignorant to put Brexit down to a lack of opportunity in towns.

    The cultural thinking here in the North is different to elsewhere and its arrogant to think that Northerners are only different because we're worse off.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Alistair said:
    Trump's stolen second term is going to be quite a bumpy ride.
    If he violates the constitution does he not become impeachable?
    Hasn't worked so far.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Tonight's Top of the Pops' are from 14th and 21st December 1989 on BBC4 at 8pm.

    I'm in. It's a missing year for me. I was in Australia.
    I was living in NZ. Christmas with family in Auckland. I don’t think that I missed too much at the fag end of the Eighties in the UK.
    The end of the 80s was a brilliant time in the UK, certainly in London

    The long Lawson boom, Thatcherite deregulation, the Big Bang in the City, London's population growing for the first time since 1939. It was when everything began to turn around. Also, it was the era of Really Good Ecstasy, and the second summer of love.

    London in about 1986-89 was a brilliant, throbbing city on the rise.

    And, of course, in 1989 The Stones Roses put out The Stone Roses
    I don't agree with all of it, but Andrew Marr's documentary on the Thatcher era does a good job of capturing the renewed sense of optimism.

    https://vimeo.com/205881931
    There really was an atmosphere of positivity. A sense, fuckyeah, we're on the way back.

    Noticeably, Loadsamoney became a massively popular (and occasionally amusing) comedy character, in the late 80s: because he captured a truth. Suddenly, working class people (in London and the south) felt quite a lot richer.

    His creators meant him to be a villain, but he became a kind of passing folk hero

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgUYUOGvVZM
    In London and the South. Glad you said that. But should not be in brackets.
    There were plenty of working class people all over the country in the 1980s who became, not just felt, a lot richer.

    It seems that you still don't understand the results of the 1987 and 1992 general elections.
    There were plenty thrown on the scrapheap too. People voting for Thatcher gave no fucks about that because they were selfish arseholes. Unfortunately they were in the majority. See, I understand perfectly. ☺
    Except they weren't in a majority. Thanks to the joys of our electoral system Thatch got big majorities with less than half the vote. Partly thanks to a divided opposition. I'll hold my hand up - I voted SDP twice.
    That's a good point - and a truly terrible confession.
    The SDP soaked up a lot of centrist votes that would otherwise have gone to Thatcher.
    Yes that's a fair assumption - especially vs Foot. But surely the net impact was bigger Con majority. Still, every right to stand. I don't consider them traitors or anything.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Tonight's Top of the Pops' are from 14th and 21st December 1989 on BBC4 at 8pm.

    I'm in. It's a missing year for me. I was in Australia.
    I was living in NZ. Christmas with family in Auckland. I don’t think that I missed too much at the fag end of the Eighties in the UK.
    The end of the 80s was a brilliant time in the UK, certainly in London

    The long Lawson boom, Thatcherite deregulation, the Big Bang in the City, London's population growing for the first time since 1939. It was when everything began to turn around. Also, it was the era of Really Good Ecstasy, and the second summer of love.

    London in about 1986-89 was a brilliant, throbbing city on the rise.

    And, of course, in 1989 The Stones Roses put out The Stone Roses
    I don't agree with all of it, but Andrew Marr's documentary on the Thatcher era does a good job of capturing the renewed sense of optimism.

    https://vimeo.com/205881931
    There really was an atmosphere of positivity. A sense, fuckyeah, we're on the way back.

    Noticeably, Loadsamoney became a massively popular (and occasionally amusing) comedy character, in the late 80s: because he captured a truth. Suddenly, working class people (in London and the south) felt quite a lot richer.

    His creators meant him to be a villain, but he became a kind of passing folk hero

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgUYUOGvVZM
    In London and the South. Glad you said that. But should not be in brackets.
    There were plenty of working class people all over the country in the 1980s who became, not just felt, a lot richer.

    It seems that you still don't understand the results of the 1987 and 1992 general elections.
    There were plenty thrown on the scrapheap too. People voting for Thatcher gave no fucks about that because they were selfish arseholes. Unfortunately they were in the majority. See, I understand perfectly. ☺
    There's always been people thrown on the scrapheap and others who have been selfish arseholes.

    But the 1980s were good for most people and most places - that everywhere outside of Southern England was one big soup kitchen seems to be a recurring fantasy of middle class leftists.

    Ironically one group of places which did struggle in the 1980s were middle class inner urban areas which went significantly downhill with consequences to the Conservative vote in cities.
    And yet the blighted lives and lack of opportunity in the post industrial towns and regions of the North was so profound even 30 years later that it drove Brexit.
    You'll never understand because you don't want to understand.

    Brexit was a reaction to the previous decade not the 1980s.

    It was the effects of Blair and Brown not Thatcher.
This discussion has been closed.